[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Don't anyone think that I am just speaking to CMW. I know her situation enough to realize there is more to her walk than "me and my Bible." But I think this specific quote is still a major thinking in many of us.

Hi OBW,
There are a few comments on your post I want to address. Some of which I'm not sure I understand completely your thoughts or observations. Your comment of 'me & my bible' for instance. Not that this particular comment ruffled any of my feathers, but for the purpose of clarification, I do glean a lot from preachers/teachers I hold in high regard for their faithfullness to the Word. Many have traveled to Israel many, many times over as well as throughout the world and their experiences have enlightened me immensely. Others are truly gifted speakers who clearly explain the meaning of the scriptures. I hold many in high esteem.

Lee, to my knowledge, for all that is worth, to my recollection did not travel even once to Israel but considered himself and by his followers an expert on the bible. The 'shoulders' he stood on did not include any who brought thousands, if not millions to Christ such as Billy Graham and others who did not have the vision of 'the church' or the 'Lord's Recovery'.

I think we forget that until only fairly recently, most of the average population couldn't read anything.

I'm not sure what you mean by recently. Most of us here were born in the 40s/50s. I don't consider those years recently unless we are comparing them to the years of the 1800s or before. We were taught to read and encouraged to read for ourselves and to discuss what we read via book reports, class discussions, book clubs. Thus I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to.

There was a reason that Jesus called a group, and singled out 12 of those as they all followed along.

Don't forget even among the 12, Jesus singled out 3 of them to witness the Transfiguration where He is seen speaking to Moses & Elijah. It was not the 12 that had this privelege. Only 3 of them: Peter, John & James. In the end, when each of us stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, it will be only 'you' & God period. None of us are going to take along a spouse, friend, son, daughter, parent, sibling. It's one & One.

But now that virtually everyone can read the Bible, we think that we should be primarily responsible for figuring it out for ourselves. We are so enamored with this notion that we can get along without teachers/preachers. But we can't.

OBW. I disagree ! Not only do I believe what is written in 1 Corinthians 3:5-7, I've seen the application at work. So have most of us here!

Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

I have never said don't need preachers/teachers. I have always acknowledged I have learned a lot from different preachers/teachers, some of whom you yourself have criticized. As I stated previously, many have gone to Israel and various parts of the world, places I have never been to. I am thankful they can explain to me the significance of things I don't understand.

We wouldn't agree enough to meet with anyone but ourselves if we were left to our own devices.

Yeah...we have a long ways before we attain perfection!

And based on some comments that come through occasionally, some of us are barely tolerating that evil clergy-laity system that rules even the congregation we are sort of a part of (kind of rhymes).

It's not that we are barely tolerating the "evil" clergy-laity system OBW, it's the division that bothers me. I don't know how many times I hear 'Oh. THAT preacher is a wolf in sheep's clothing!' It was that kind of verbage that put a wall up between Christians. The LC of course, under Lee's leadership was where I first learned to put up a wall of division. Slowly but surely, the Lord is granting me a spirit of discernment. And where I have been guilty of unjust criticism, His Light Shines on me to repent.

While there are wolves in sheep's clothing, the closer we are to God through His Word, by His Holy Spirit Who gives us understanding and clarity, we are learning to be discerning.

This forum has given us the freedom to criticize as well as to openly appreciate what we learned from Lee & his teachings.

Surely we should be reading the word if we are capable of it.

Hmmm.. so there are people who are not 'capable' of the reading the Scriptures? Let's see...they are capable of reading smut, reading history, computer books, novels but wow...they are not capable of reading the Word. I believe if people are not capable of reading the Word it is simply because they have no LIGHT to understand it. For the letter kills, but the HolySpirit gives Life. God, the Holy Spirit is the One Who gives us Light & Understanding. The reason we are often times greatly helped by preachers/teachers is because they prayerfully seek for understanding of the Word of God & the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to them. This is what we all should be striving for.

Stated another way, there are some apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers for the perfecting of the saints.

True. But back in that day, the RCC had not been instituted. There were no denominations. There were not bible colleges/schools where people paid to become ordained pastors. The church was not a 'business' with IRS tax exemptions.

I believe there were divisions and I believe it is likely because of divisions, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers came about.

Despite the kind of mentality that we got from the LRC to be self-feeding toward our own perfection, note that even there it was targeted to underscore the "ministry" of Lee.

Precisely ! And it is not only there this happened. Get involved in any organized church denomination, the same thing happens. You'll go to a 'bible study' and it underscores the ministry of that pastor. In my neck of the woods, there is a strong emphasis on being 'baptized in the Holy Spirit' which equates to speaking in 'tongues'. I have heard people say that 'Pastor so & so' is so 'anointed' because he spends at least 4 hours praying in tongues a day. I would rather him-her spend 4 hrs praying /reading/searching the scriptures than 4 hrs praying in tongues! That's my opinion. In my day in the LC, people were in awe that Lee read the bible at least 50 times ! (As if no one else had ever done that and couldn't be done by anyone else.

We were told one thing in clear words but a different thing in many veiled words that made us just like everyone else. Even they are reading to strengthen the teaching they are given.Their problem is not that they do not read/study in the right way. It is that they are learning from some whose work will not stand the test of fire.

Yup. Speaking for myself, every time I think I know something from the Word of God, I myself am tested by God on that very thing! So a lot of things I have shared here on this forum is because I myself have been tested on what I think I know. I try not to share or 'teach' anything I have not been tested on by God. I remember even being tested when I was in the LC !! I remember sharing things I had read in the life studies to someone who was not in the LC & they'd have comebacks I had no answer for!

The main one(s) to suffer will be those that teach it.

That is exactly right OBW ! Not only will the ordained pastors be accountable, each of us are going to be held accountable with what we ourselves teach/share w/others. So we better be in good standing w/the Lord. Right?

No matter how "off the mark" we think Lee and the LRC are, they are Christian and most of them are diligently obedient to their leadership.

No different than any other church organization. That said, we all know among the deficits Lee's teachings had, one of its' biggest was his criticism of the other church organizations. And it's come back to bite the LSM.

Good post OBM!