[Thankful Jane]

Blue was written first, by Jane.
Black was written in response by ZNP.
Red is my current answer to ZNP’s black.

Jane post #20: Okay, ZNP. I've read your response several times and though it is very interesting, it doesn't answer my specific questions.

Your explanation seems to have moved away from what Terry asked ("What is the issue with encouraging ones to talk about their problems?") and even away from your response to Terry's question ("I think the problem with sisters opening up about their problems is obvious..."). You then switched horses from sisters talking about their own problems to sisters talking about their problems with PL. (I also asked for your source of information about sisters having problems with PL that they might talk about.)

ZNP post #25: I did not move away from those questions.

Nevertheless, you did not answer my questions or Terry’s in a straightforward manner as one should do out of respect for another. Terry asked “what is the issue with encouraging ones to talk about their problems?” In your answer you changed “ones” to “sisters” and then proceeded to talk about sisters, Phillip Lee, elders, Daystar, etc. What’s with that?

Since this thread is about The Thread of Gold, it was my understanding that Terry’s question was related to what happened in Houston regarding people opening up about their personal problems. I understood him to be asking what was wrong with encouraging that. (If I misunderstood, then Terry can say so.) It seems you just wanted to spring board to something else you wanted to say about sisters and your big picture assessment of things.

ZNP post #25: My point was simple, you are trying to figure this out thinking with the mindset of a “dove” (a born again Christian), as a result you are mangling NT verses to attempt to justify this behavior.

My post was not about figuring out anything or justifying any kind of behavior. My post contained some facts of which you seem to be unaware. It was a response to a false premise you set forth that sisters were outside of the communication loop with the elders. I offered evidence to the contrary. That was the extent of my post. By the way, what NT verses did I “mangle?”

ZNP post #25: My point was if that does not work, try something new, instead think like a serpent, consider the mindset of a serpent. The Lord told us to do this (be wise as serpents). The NT tells us we are not ignorant of Satan’s devices. If you do this there is a simple explanation for the LRC pushing eroneous teachings. It was merely a case of damage control by those with the mindset of a serpent.

Excuse me? You write as if I am trying to figure out the behavior of elders and Lee in my post. I did nothing of the kind. You were the one that talked about them, and I did not respond to that part of your post. My response was restricted to one thing-sisters being in communication with the elders--as I explained.

Jane post #20: At this point, I think the simplest thing for me to do is just respond to what you wrote about sisters (at least what I think I understood you to be saying  ). Just so we're clear, I am now riding along side your horse, and this response does not concern Terry's question (about sisters talking about their own problems.)

ZNP post #25: Then you are not riding alongside my horse, because my response did concern his question. My point was you are trying to understand, explain, justify, etc. these false teachings. Take a step back, look where they originated from and you can dismiss them altogether out of hand.

Where exactly in my post was I trying to “understand, explain, justify, etc. these false teachings”?

Jane post #20: First of all, I don't agree with your portrait of sisters in general as being in some kind of situation outside of the loop of control of the elders. You said, "it is very common for sisters to fellowship with one another. This cuts the elders out of the loop and prevents problems from being funneled through the elders to WL...." For one thing, this implies that brothers don't ever fellowship with one another without the elders being in the loop, something which clearly isn't so. For another, your premise is just too broad for me and I don't find it to be true.

ZNP post #25: Wow! You really missed my point. First, let me ask you a question, where in the NT does it say that anyone should be under the control of the elders? What is the scriptural basis to say that a church should be under the control of the elders? The NT says that it is the Church of God, it is the Church of Christ and it is the Church of the saints. Never does it say it is the Church of the Elders. So, before you tell me how you were a submissive sister, explain to me why you were? The order of submission is to your husband under the condition that he in turn is submitting to the Lord Jesus. How did the “elders” short circuit that? This reminds me of the Book of Galatians where Paul marvels that the Galatians are so willing to submit themselves to the judaizers.

No need to “wow.” Just read my post again more slowly. I did not respond at all to any part of your post except for what you said about sisters. I told you this plainly when I said, “At this point, I think the simplest thing for me to do is just respond to what you wrote about sisters (at least what I think I understood you to be saying). So, you have no basis to say that I missed your point. You don’t know what I missed or thought about the rest of your post because I didn’t tell you. I never said that elders should be in control. I simply said that as a matter of history, sisters were in the loop (meaning they were telling the elders what they were fellowshipping and doing) and were submitting to the elders. I gave no value judgment about the correctness of this. I presented evidence that they were in the loop because you had claimed they were not. That was it. If you want answers from me to the rest of the questions you asked in the above paragraph, then please ask them in a way that does not assume that you know my position on these things.

Jane post #20: From your out-of-the-loop premise about sisters, you move to the conclusion that sisters like Sandee R. had to be dealt with because they were outside the loop and couldn't be stopped any other wayfrom causing damage. To the contrary, the fact is that Sandee was very much in the loop in Anaheim and that not only was she (and two other sisters) in fellowship (in the loop) with the local elders on a weekly basis for several years prior to Lee's action against them, she was also directly in fellowship with Lee himself on a regular basis. She was very close to W. Lee and even called him Witness. (This is something I never heard anyone else ever do.)

ZNP post #25: No, my point was that if you were running a Christian Publishing house with a Philanderer, and were trying to skim money off the top with a covetous man then exposing this would cause your house of cards to collapse. I was asking you to stop thinking like a dove (a born again Christian) and think like a serpent (to “be wise as a serpent"). Max had clearly confronted PL, therefore how do you respond. Since none of WL’s responses fit the mindset of a dove, I considered how a serpent would respond. You would have to destroy the credibility of Max, you would have to excommunicate him, but that would be difficult, even dangerous. First, you have to cut off all fellowship with Max and his wife. The only reasonable explanation for what happened to you and Max’s wife is that WL was going into damage control to protect his kingdom from being exposed in the light. WL had the mindset of a serpent.

These points have not been in dispute at all by me. In fact I have made similar points in other posts in the past. You are addressing me with a lot of assumptions.

Jane post #20: I learned these facts in January 2006 in a personal conversation with her. She and the sisters with her were flabbergasted by all that happened. She said that every thing that they did with the sisters in Anaheim over a period of three years prior to 1977-78, was done in fellowship with and under the direction of the elders and Lee. These sisters were very supportive of Lee and his ministry and would have done whatever he told them to do. (This made what ultimately happened to them incredibily horrible.)

ZNP post #25: Look, I was once working for a brokerage firm and made them probably in excess of 1 million dollars over the course of about 4 months yet I was blindsided and driven out of the company. Why? Because I learned that one of the brokers was a crook. Why was I driven out? Because it turns out the entire firm was crooked. If I exposed the crook the whole house of cards collapses so I had to go, regardless of how profitable I was. As it turns out the brokerage firm was out of business within 12 months and my exodus was instrumental in their demise. Max’s wife was flabbergasted because she was thinking of the mindset of a dove and considered WL to also be a dove. Regardless of how you look at the facts you cannot reconcile WL being a dove with his actions. However, if you take the mindset of a serpent it is very easy to reconcile his actions.

It is normal for a believer to expect the best of other believers. It is normal to be “flabbergasted” when the sheep’s clothing falls off a fellow believer, one you are close to and trust, and reveals a wolf. Once the wolf behavior manifests itself, it doesn’t take a whole lot of discernment to be able to say, “wolf.” In other words, you don’t need to try and persuade me about the nature of Lee’s or the elders behavior. I saw the wolf’s tail on some elders for the first time over thirty years ago. About a decade later, I saw the lead wolf emerge with his pack, without wearing any sheep's clothing.

I don’t really appreciate that you are writing to me based on your presumption that my current thoughts are as you imagine.

Jane post #20: As sisters in Texas being out-of-the-loop, Don Looper told another sister (he and she were in Austin at the time) that I got in trouble because the things I had said had come to the ears of the elders. I always found this statement to be very interesting because it implied I was talking behind their back. The fact is that the things I had said were said directly into the ears of the elders in Houston by me and my husband and another couple and another sister (TOG, 161). We were in the loop, funneling directly to their ears what we had to say. It was clear to me by what the Austin sister was told, that Don Looper had received his inaccurate information from another source (no doubt Benson and/or Ray).

ZNP post #25: This accusation is preemptive. Once this goes around, then when Max is excommunicated his wife can’t say anything because it looks like she is merely talking behind the backs of the elders or trying to retaliate. You were merely collateral damage. The simplest and most obvious explanation is that WL had the mindset of a serpent and was protecting his kingdom by keeping the deeds of his evil sons in the dark.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say what I wrote was a preemptive accusation. As for your last sentence, you keep pressing your idea as if it is something new. This basic understanding of Lee’s behavior concerning Phillip has been made and established by others, including me, on other threads written over the last five or more years.

Jane post #20: (As some evidence of my last statement: Don Rutledge wrote me in an email a few years ago about a conversation between Don Looper and Benson that took place on an airplane the week before the 1977 Memorial Day weekend. Don R. was purposefully excluded from this conversation, but he overheard enough to know that it was something about sisters. I might be able to quote what Don R. wrote if I can find it, and if anyone is interested. In other words, Benson was talking to Don Looper about sisters in a very serious and private way just a few days before the sisters were squashed in Houston by Benson and Austin by Don Looper.)

So that I don't digress further, I'll stop. My point is that sisters were "in the loop" and that the reason they were squashed was something other than what you have proposed.

Thankful Jane

ZNP post #25: My point is that you were “in the loop” created by the elders based on bogus teachings. The bogus teachings are necessary for WL to maintain control and do damage control. There is no Scriptural basis for this and all the teachings on the sisters, rebellion, negative speaking, submission, etc. that are pervasive in the LRC should be deeply suspect and reexamined based on NT teachings.

ZNP, first you said sisters were not in the loop with the elders. Now you say that sisters (in this case, me) were “in the loop.” So which is it? If after reading my post you changed your mind about this, why not say so? Instead you just move ahead and launch a new argument about the elders’ control being based on bogus teachings and you write as if no one else, including me, has ever noted this or re-examined what the NT says about such teachings. That simply is not the case.

ZNP post #25: I believe that the real benefit in the fellowship on these forums is for us to become inoculated to this kind of deceit. Just like exposing the human body to a disease will make it stronger if it can defeat the disease. I think, at least in part, this is what is meant by "those that overcome". There are diseases in the Catholic church which need to be overcome, there are diseases in the Protestant churches, the non denominational churches, and the LRC.

You seem to think that somehow this was all a big misunderstanding and if BP etal understood that they would apologize. But after all these years don't you think it is reasonable to think that this was not a misunderstanding?

What? Please provide quotes from me that have caused you to conclude that I seem to think this somehow was all a big misunderstanding and if BP understood that he would apologize. Also, rather than pose a question to me based on your assumption about what I think after all these years, wouldn't it be better to ask me what I think first. From what you’ve written, I can assure you that you do not know what I think.

ZNP post #: Perhaps the reason they want this to go away and for everyone to forget it is they know that what they did was just one more inexcusable sin. If they admit they were wrong would they have to admit that they were doing a coverup, that many, many of their teachings and actions were a result of this. One lie begets many many more lies.

To me, this is stating the obvious.

Thankful Jane