[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Thankful Jane

Blue is quoted from Jane, Black is my response.

Okay, ZNP. I've read your response several times and though it is very interesting, it doesn't answer my specific questions.

Your explanation seems to have moved away from what Terry asked ("What is the issue with encouraging ones to talk about their problems?") and even away from your response to Terry's question ("I think the problem with sisters opening up about their problems is obvious..."). You then switched horses from sisters talking about their own problems to sisters talking about their problems with PL. (I also asked for your source of information about sisters having problems with PL that they might talk about.)

I did not move away from those questions. My point was simple, you are trying to figure this out thinking with the mindset of a “dove” (a born again Christian), as a result you are mangling NT verses to attempt to justify this behavior. My point was if that does not work, try something new, instead think like a serpent, consider the mindset of a serpent. The Lord told us to do this (be wise as serpents). The NT tells us we are not ignorant of Satan’s devices. If you do this there is a simple explanation for the LRC pushing eroneous teachings. It was merely a case of damage control by those with the mindset of a serpent.

At this point, I think the simplest thing for me to do is just respond to what you wrote about sisters (at least what I think I understood you to be saying  ). Just so we're clear, I am now riding along side your horse, and this response does not concern Terry's question (about sisters talking about their own problems.)

Then you are not riding alongside my horse, because my response did concern his question. My point was you are trying to understand, explain, justify, etc. these false teachings. Take a step back, look where they originated from and you can dismiss them altogether out of hand.

First of all, I don't agree with your portrait of sisters in general as being in some kind of situation outside of the loop of control of the elders. You said, "it is very common for sisters to fellowship with one another. This cuts the elders out of the loop and prevents problems from being funneled through the elders to WL...." For one thing, this implies that brothers don't ever fellowship with one another without the elders being in the loop, something which clearly isn't so. For another, your premise is just too broad for me and I don't find it to be true.

Wow! You really missed my point. First, let me ask you a question, where in the NT does it say that anyone should be under the control of the elders? What is the scriptural basis to say that a church should be under the control of the elders? The NT says that it is the Church of God, it is the Church of Christ and it is the Church of the saints. Never does it say it is the Church of the Elders. So, before you tell me how you were a submissive sister, explain to me why you were? The order of submission is to your husband under the condition that he in turn is submitting to the Lord Jesus. How did the “elders” short circuit that? This reminds me of the Book of Galatians where Paul marvels that the Galatians are so willing to submit themselves to the judaizers.

From your out-of-the-loop premise about sisters, you move to the conclusion that sisters like Sandee R. had to be dealt with because they were outside the loop and couldn't be stopped any other wayfrom causing damage. To the contrary, the fact is that Sandee was very much in the loop in Anaheim and that not only was she (and two other sisters) in fellowship (in the loop) with the local elders on a weekly basis for several years prior to Lee's action against them, she was also directly in fellowship with Lee himself on a regular basis. She was very close to W. Lee and even called him Witness. (This is something I never heard anyone else ever do.)

No, my point was that if you were running a Christian Publishing house with a Philanderer, and were trying to skim money off the top with a covetous man then exposing this would cause your house of cards to collapse. I was asking you to stop thinking like a dove (a born again Christian) and think like a serpent (to “be wise as a serpent"). Max had clearly confronted PL, therefore how do you respond. Since none of WL’s responses fit the mindset of a dove, I considered how a serpent would respond. You would have to destroy the credibility of Max, you would have to excommunicate him, but that would be difficult, even dangerous. First, you have to cut off all fellowship with Max and his wife. The only reasonable explanation for what happened to you and Max’s wife is that WL was going into damage control to protect his kingdom from being exposed in the light. WL had the mindset of a serpent.

I learned these facts in January 2006 in a personal conversation with her. She and the sisters with her were flabbergasted by all that happened. She said that every thing that they did with the sisters in Anaheim over a period of three years prior to 1977-78, was done in fellowship with and under the direction of the elders and Lee. These sisters were very supportive of Lee and his ministry and would have done whatever he told them to do. (This made what ultimately happened to them incredibily horrible.)

Look, I was once working for a brokerage firm and made them probably in excess of 1 million dollars over the course of about 4 months yet I was blindsided and driven out of the company. Why? Because I learned that one of the brokers was a crook. Why was I driven out? Because it turns out the entire firm was crooked. If I exposed the crook the whole house of cards collapses so I had to go, regardless of how profitable I was. As it turns out the brokerage firm was out of business within 12 months and my exodus was instrumental in their demise. Max’s wife was flabbergasted because she was thinking of the mindset of a dove and considered WL to also be a dove. Regardless of how you look at the facts you cannot reconcile WL being a dove with his actions. However, if you take the mindset of a serpent it is very easy to reconcile his actions.

As sisters in Texas being out-of-the-loop, Don Looper told another sister (he and she were in Austin at the time) that I got in trouble because the things I had said had come to the ears of the elders. I always found this statement to be very interesting because it implied I was talking behind their back. The fact is that the things I had said were said directly into the ears of the elders in Houston by me and my husband and another couple and another sister (TOG, 161). We were in the loop, funneling directly to their ears what we had to say. It was clear to me by what the Austin sister was told, that Don Looper had received his inaccurate information from another source (no doubt Benson and/or Ray).

This accusation is preemptive. Once this goes around, then when Max is excommunicated his wife can’t say anything because it looks like she is merely talking behind the backs of the elders or trying to retaliate. You were merely collateral damage. The simplest and most obvious explanation is that WL had the mindset of a serpent and was protecting his kingdom by keeping the deeds of his evil sons in the dark.

(As some evidence of my last statement: Don Rutledge wrote me in an email a few years ago about a conversation between Don Looper and Benson that took place on an airplane the week before the 1977 Memorial Day weekend. Don R. was purposefully excluded from this conversation, but he overheard enough to know that it was something about sisters. I might be able to quote what Don R. wrote if I can find it, and if anyone is interested. In other words, Benson was talking to Don Looper about sisters in a very serious and private way just a few days before the sisters were squashed in Houston by Benson and Austin by Don Looper.)

So that I don't digress further, I'll stop. My point is that sisters were "in the loop" and that the reason they were squashed was something other than what you have proposed.

Thankful Jane

My point is that you were “in the loop” created by the elders based on bogus teachings. The bogus teachings are necessary for WL to maintain control and do damage control. There is no Scriptural basis for this and all the teachings on the sisters, rebellion, negative speaking, submission, etc. that are pervasive in the LRC should be deeply suspect and reexamined based on NT teachings.

I believe that the real benefit in the fellowship on these forums is for us to become inoculated to this kind of deceit. Just like exposing the human body to a disease will make it stronger if it can defeat the disease. I think, at least in part, this is what is meant by "those that overcome". There are diseases in the Catholic church which need to be overcome, there are diseases in the Protestant churches, the non denominational churches, and the LRC.

You seem to think that somehow this was all a big misunderstanding and if BP etal understood that they would apologize. But after all these years don't you think it is reasonable to think that this was not a misunderstanding? Perhaps the reason they want this to go away and for everyone to forget it is they know that what they did was just one more inexcusable sin. If they admit they were wrong would they have to admit that they were doing a coverup, that many, many of their teachings and actions were a result of this. One lie begets many many more lies.