[UntoHim]

***rayliotta

05-18-2011 12:54 AM

Re: perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah (Post 11903)

It is impossible to respond to this without being forced to do all kinds of research. Instead of taking a tiny snippet of what is said why can't you quote the entire sentence so I know what was being repudiated. Or at least give me the Post #s. I have responded in great detail already to this in my response to John. In that response I made it very clear that when I was talking about control in Houston I was referring to the elders controlling the campus work on Rice. In that Post I agreed that the elders and LSM hacks did in fact control the work on houston, that this control had no fruit, and that the elders exercised control over the church as a whole. I also pointed out that there is nothing in the word "control" that is amiss. Therefore in later posts it was agreed to use the term "abuse" as a form of misused control.

Also, please note that most of my posts on this thread were prompted by direct questions to me asking me what my experience was since I also was in Houston at the same time. Obviously I would answer a question like that with my experience. I am drawn into this thread by some asking for my experience in Houston in 1978, and then you complain that I am sharing my experience in Houston?

There, in #76, you wrote, "2. Again, I don't think in the 70s it was that clear there was a central leadership. I cannot think of any other church that had any influence on how Houston was operated, and even if LSM did exercise influence at that point it was embraced by the elders and invisible to me."

Does that point sound like it was written by someone who believes the campus work at the University of Houston was controlled by LSM hacks? Can you understand why some of us are left scratching our heads?

(The other point I referred to was #73, your response to AZ's point #2.)


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***Suannehill

05-17-2011 12:50 PM

Re: Phillips vs. Phillips

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah (Post 11904)

... The arrogance, even 20 years later, is incredible. If an elder feels you are guilty after interviewing a number of saints then that is it, no one should question it. The reality is there was no righteousness, and as a result 30 years later we are still discussing it. I thank the Lord that He is as tenacious as a a pit bull.

Boy, does this bring back some bad memories...one elder on a fairly regular basis called me out on any number of infractions...after going to the Lord I was able to be at peace...but it never really stopped...
Looking at it now, it seems that perhaps it was gossip by others that triggered his tirades.
Regardless of the source...it was usually false, but it didn't seem to stop the nonsense, nor was there an appology.
This all fits the pattern.
I'm so grateful to Jesus for my peace of mind!

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***Terry

05-17-2011 12:41 PM

Re: The Thread of Gold - Jane Carole Anderson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thankful Jane (Post 11834)

Thank you for your sharing about Rice. What you described happening at Rice is very much like what happened at the U of H with us before Captain Don Looper came on the scene to begin commanding the troops.

John and I had, of our own initiative, moved by the campus in late 1973 to provide a living place for two campus sisters. In early 1975, after we had been living there for about a year, without any kind of plan or program to have a campus work, the elders told John that they wanted us to move back to Hall One because there was nothing happening on campus (to their way of thinking). I had a strong burden from the Lord to be right where we were and didn’t want to leave. I was having a wonderful experience with Jesus and loved being around the campus sisters and their friends. I had free time to read the Bible and other Christian books. I also loved being far enough away from the main hall (without a car during the day) so that I no longer received the constant barrage of daily calls to come and serve in some capacity.

John told them we did not want to leave the campus and they decided to give us three more months. They said if nothing had happened by then, we had to move back to the Hall. When the three months were almost over, all of a sudden the Spirit began to move on campus. The sisters came home every day with amazing stories about what the Lord was doing and fruit started coming in off of the campus. This got the attention of the leadership. Instead of moving us away, they did an about face and sent Don Looper to take over what they then christened as the “campus work” (comment, Thread, 152). Don arrived and began to organize the troops. Having witnessed the Spirit’s working and blessing, I was reluctant (mainly in heart) to embrace Don’s organizational techniques and schedules; however, I gradually succumbed to the pressure and fell in with his program. He orchestrated our moving to another, larger living place, on a busy street adjacent to the campus and had more sisters move in with us. I don’t think Don was ever satisfied with my level of cooperation because he shortly began to background us and to use the home of another brother and sister who also lived near the campus. There Don held meetings and ran his “campus work headquarters” (my choice of words, not his). That sister told me years later of her frustration with becoming Don’s “slave” as she put it; but she went along like a good soldier.

After a year of managing a very large corporate living situation and trying to keep up with Don’s agenda and schedules, etc., I was drained. My joy was gone. Our marriage was suffering. John was battling with being jealous of Don whose interests seemed be getting more of my time and energy than his did. (Years later someone told me that Don’s wife had also had struggled with jealously related to me because Don spent so much time involved in the campus work. This stunned me when I heard it. What a mess.) We decided to move away from the campus by the fall of 1976 and left it to Don and his lieutenants.

So, the U of H that you saw and described, ZNP, was the one that had been commandeered by the LC program; it was the one we had left. I could easily relate to your story of Kerry R and his boring Bible study, having sat through such things at the U of H under its new command.

By the way, the sister who became Kerry R’s wife was the first sister to come into the church through our campus home. She lived with us there and chose to move with us when we left the campus.

As you know from your experience at Rice, there is nothing like seeing God at work. Nothing. I can fully relate to the joy that you and those with you experienced seeing Jesus working spontaneously at Rice. The one who cannot stand to see God working and uses everything at his disposal to interfere is the old serpent. Unfortunately, many times he uses other believers and their good intentions and zeal to frustrate God’s own work.

Thankful Jane

Jane, from afar this is my perspective from your posts and from having read The Thread of Gold:

The hospitable nature of your household made for an easy transition for students to enter in. It was truly organic what the Lord was doing. Outwardly, this was the peak of your positive experiences in the local churches. That was until the brothers decided they needed put their own stamp on UH campus.
Following the event of memorial day weekend of 1977, essentially you were told "I have no need of you". This is contrary to Paul's first letter to the Corinthians,
"And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."

So from 1977 until John and you parted from the local churches in 1990(?), it may have seemed negative outwardly. Of course, when we're pressed and tested is when the Lord is able to open our eyes, open our hearts, and burn what needs to burned.


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***ZNPaaneah

05-17-2011 07:37 AM

Re: Phillips vs. Phillips

Quote:
Originally Posted by John (Post 11891)

Can the Local Church leadership say, “We were wrong?” While doing some research related to a previous post, I re-read a letter from Benson Phillips, dated October 23, 1992. In it, I may have found some evidence that they can—in a back-handed sort of way. When I compared what Benson wrote with what came out of his mouth in 2005, I may have found evidence of a miracle. See what you think....

The thing that is clear from this post is that publishing the book prompted Benson to respond. In earlier posts we were discussing how to respond and this was my point, sharing your testimony is the way to overcome the lies. This is what Jane did, this is what JI did, etc. This is what everyone should do. Even if it takes 10-20 years it clearly will have an impact.

The other thing that really bothers me is the way Benson feels that interviewing saints = a fair trial. That would be like a prosecuting attorney arguing that we interviewed a lot of people before deciding you were guilty, there is no trial. Read the testimony and where did Jane get a chance to make a defense or to hear her accusers? I thought righteousness begins with the house of God? The arrogance, even 20 years later, is incredible. If an elder feels you are guilty after interviewing a number of saints then that is it, no one should question it. The reality is there was no righteousness, and as a result 30 years later we are still discussing it. I thank the Lord that He is as tenacious as a a pit bull.


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***ZNPaaneah

05-17-2011 07:34 AM

Re: perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta (Post 11895)

[I wrote this post a few days back. I realize this thread has "moved on" since then, and I don't want to take it off-topic. However, I would still like to post it, I feel it still has some relevance. So, I just put this out there...]

ZNP, it seems to me that you frequently make some very broad assertions, and then think that by peppering in the phrase "in my experience", you will be understood. Yet if you are only speaking from your own personal experience, how do you make such broad statements?

By way of example, you said in response to a particular point in AZ's 1989 letter, "I completely repudiate this." You then went on to describe your own experience, in the late 70's. Yet AZ, to my reading, was clearly speaking in the present tense, in the late 80's, about the present situation, at that time, post-"New Way".

So what is it you were repudiating?

Again, as an example, you disagreed with John about outside influence in Houston in the late 70's. Then when John wrote about the control of the campus work at UH, you said you were only speaking about Rice. No, actually, you weren't, look back at #27, your second point! ----> You reject the idea that there was outside influence in Houston, then acknowledge that, yes, of course, the UH campus work was run by "LSM hacks", but it was different at Rice.

Can you see why this is frustrating to some of us? You apply your experience broadly, apparently refuting people's points, then retreat back to your own experience (just Rice, not Houston at large), yet your broader assertion (about Houston) seems never to get addressed. (How is it you "cannot think of any other church that had any influence on how Houston was operated", and yet you say UH was run by LSM hacks? But more to the point, how is it that you can't see the contradiction?)

ZNP, my point in saying all this is just to try to get you to see how it can be difficult discussing with you sometimes. I wasn't in Houston, actually I was barely a twinkling in my daddy's underpants at the time, but obviously these matters are relevant to all of us to some degree, as they help us understand the way "the Recovery" operates, and the seeds that grew into what it is today.

It is impossible to respond to this without being forced to do all kinds of research. Instead of taking a tiny snippet of what is said why can't you quote the entire sentence so I know what was being repudiated. Or at least give me the Post #s. I have responded in great detail already to this in my response to John. In that response I made it very clear that when I was talking about control in Houston I was referring to the elders controlling the campus work on Rice. In that Post I agreed that the elders and LSM hacks did in fact control the work on houston, that this control had no fruit, and that the elders exercised control over the church as a whole. I also pointed out that there is nothing in the word "control" that is amiss. Therefore in later posts it was agreed to use the term "abuse" as a form of misused control.

Also, please note that most of my posts on this thread were prompted by direct questions to me asking me what my experience was since I also was in Houston at the same time. Obviously I would answer a question like that with my experience. I am drawn into this thread by some asking for my experience in Houston in 1978, and then you complain that I am sharing my experience in Houston?