[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by John

ZNPaaneah,

With this latest post of yours (#45), it seems that you may have come around to considering the ramifications of my presentation in #31, which I appreciate, considering the way you tried to dismiss it earlier.

I am unaware of ever trying to dismiss anything you said.

I have read all your responses and may reply to them in more detail later. (I never feel compelled to rebut everything thrown at me.) I think that most readers realize without me spelling it out for them that my main point (the fact that we were in Houston along with you) destroys your contention that there was no control by the elders in The Church in Houston during your time there—even though you threw around words like “laughable” and “absurd,” while only relying for support on your experience within the confines of Rice University and your opinion of others who had been involved with Rice.

I am sorry if I implied that "there was no control by the elders in Houston". That was not true. That was also not my testimony, and I have shared my testimony extensively both on this forum and on the Bereans forum. However, I do not believe that elders exercising control of a congregation is in and of itself a condemnation. Over the last 9 months I have come to see that there was a lot more to what was going on. I have come to see that the behavior of RG and BP towards JI in the early 80s was in my mind inexcusable. That said, the elders also exercised a form of control over me while in Houston, but I am not nearly as clear that this was as worthy of condemnation as what happened with JI. Hebrews says that we are all under discipline and if we aren't then we are bastards. I cannot look back on my experience in Houston as a new brother and see anything that could clearly be described as anything other than discipline as described in Hebrews. I could be mistaken, but this is my experience and if new information comes to light I will consider it.

Before I consider getting into the details that would be necessary to have a full discussion of the c-word (control, that is) as it relates to The Church in Houston, I want to find out where you stand, now that you’ve had a few days to ruminate on the impact of my revelation. (By the way, it should not have been a revelation to you, since you stated in your #39 that you had read Jane’s account, and she clearly stated in The Thread of Gold that we moved in 1979, not 1978.)

As far as I can recall I did not know Jane A. I don't think that either of you ever introduced yourself to me, I don't think I ever visited your home that I can recall, and I am not aware that you shared personal testimonies in the meeting. It is possible that I am wrong. But, the fact that we were in the same meeting hall together at the same time does not mean that I had the faintest idea who you were or what your situation was. As you mentioned she was under strict, stern and unreasonable control before I came in. Based on that it is reasonable for me to assume that she did not have any real personal contact with me and so I in fact did not know her. When people ask me if I knew her I say no, not because we weren't both in Houston at the same time, but because I didn't know her.

Also, if you will read pertinent parts of the book again carefully, you will find another instance of a “gross violation” of control by an elder in the affairs of another family that occurred in The Church in Houston after we left, in the early 1980s. (I’m not going to research the exact date; because, if you are willing to admit that there was control present in the Church during your first year [Jane’s case] and to admit to control in the Church just after you were gone or thereabouts [case described in The Thread of Gold], I would think that you would find it difficult to explain, much less to prove, how the control mysteriously disappeared in between.)

Once again, based on my experiences in Houston, which I have shared on public forums I do not doubt your story in the least. However, I was not aware of your situation, I was not aware of the other situation (I moved to Irving in June 1981), and in my own personal experience I was not aware of anything that could not be construed as being disciplined similar to the way a father would discipline a child. I did not stick my nose in other people's affairs, so unless you and Jane talked to me personally about your situation I would have been unaware of it.

Didn’t you go off topic?

After you deal with the gross control in The Church in Houston, I believe we could then have a decent discussion about possible campus control at Rice, but that was not exactly the topic I signed up for when I replied to your #27, point #6. If we do, I would then amend the topic to include more nuanced control and not just the “gross violation” that was occurring in the Church.

I think that the last sentence in my #31 may have led you to apply it only to Rice University. Actually, I merely intended that sentence to be a very brief synopsis of how control generally lined up with Anaheim in its flow, not to offer a way for ignoring my main point. I tacked it on to reflect my total Church experience in multiple Churches over a 20-year span, which includes our experience at the University of Houston and with U of H students who continued living with us after we moved away from the campus. From your point of view, however, after re-reading it, I can see how you might have taken it and applied it only to your experience at Rice, and I apologize if it misled you. Even with this mea culpa, keep in mind that I did not say that the elders were controlling the ones on the campuses. However, I have also not stated that they were not. Also, if it will help you to focus on the ramifications of the two main events that exhibited gross control in The Church in Houston, one in the ’78 and ’79 time frame, and the other one around, say, ’81 , then please ignore my last sentence in #31.

I shared this because my experience is quite different from others. Particularly BB, who shared his testimony about what happened when he met with Christians at UT in Austin. His experience took place at virtually the same time I was at Rice, yet I met with Christians frequently without any interference. Some have expressed incredulity at this and so I have come to realize that my experience was different because the elders and LSM hacks did not have access to our campus. Without a doubt there was a big difference between the campus work on Rice and the campus work on UH. Without any doubt the elders and LSM hacks did control the campus work on UH and that work, in my mind, was a dismal failure.

If a tree falls in a forest …

If you are simply going to repeat that it wasn’t your experience at Rice, I’ll just let you remain behind that cloistered wall. I’m not trying to be mean, but I do get bothered when someone states unequivocally that control didn’t exist in the very Church that was controlling my wife and me and those around us with whom we had worked faithfully for almost a decade, as well as controlling another family that left Houston after us. The control in both cases was carried out by Ray from Houston in concert with Benson from Dallas; so, I hope you will excuse me if I believe that you have a naïve view of their relationship. In addition, it seems to me that your understanding of the Max event, and Benson and Ray’s involvement in it, is also deficient.

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding here. I am not disputing your experience. I don't doubt that the TOC is an accurate portrayal of that experience. What I am saying is that the elders and LSM hacks did not control the work on Rice. Nothing more than that. I am not the one making blanket statements. It may be that they wanted to control it, but it was outside of their jurisdiction and they were unable to control it. Second, in my senior year at Rice we had 6 brothers, all of which were brought into fellowship with the church through the Gospel. By comparison UH had about 12, none of which were the result of the gospel. Why on earth would we want them to take control of our work? To my mind there was no gospel work on UH, they had a campus work and a brothers house, but no gospel.

After I get an answer to my question at the end of this post, I will consider discussing with you the elders in Texas, including those in Houston, and their conspiracies. Also, I might be willing to discuss the situation at Rice and whether or not there was any control there. Jane and I experienced the elders’ hands of control at the University of Houston, which you might factor in to your experience at Rice. Even though it was a few years earlier, I don’t imagine that control just disappeared since a culture of control had been established, especially not as long as Ray was still there. In such a discussion, I am quite willing to let you be the expert about all things Rice. If a tree fell in those woods, I wouldn’t have heard it.

They did exercise a lot of control. The biggest joke was whenever we had a gospel meeting the brother's most responsible for the work would run that meeting. These are brothers who you could know by their fruit, i.e. they were barren. However, DC, who was probably the most fruitful brother in Houston was only asked once to share a testimony, and never once asked to share one of those meetings. One reason was that he was a poor public speaker. Isn't it funny that here is a person that preached the gospel every day, who brought new gospel contacts to the meetings every month, and often every week, and yet he was a very poor speaker. To me that was a testimony that God is not a respecter of man's person. But it was certainly a bone of contention my last year at Rice. I and the other brothers on campus would share weekly our experiences in the gospel. We had fruit, we had experiences and we were not under the control of anyone. Yet, the gospel meetings were run by LSM hacks that had no fruit.

Main point

So, here is my main point again: You asked for an example of a “gross violation,” and I gave you the elders’ treatment of Jane Anderson. In 1978, Jane was in The Church in Houston under very strict, stern, and unreasonable discipline by the elders; in 1979, she was still there, suffering an almost indescribable torment on a daily basis. In 1978 and 1979, you were there, too (and so was I). The fact that you didn’t even realize that she was there when she had not too long before been a prominent sister (my words, not hers), just further proves my point that there was discipline, that it was severe, and that it succeeded in taking her out of her “function” for the duration of our time there. Jane and I were suffering a hellishly-inspired discipline that almost drove Jane mad and me into the hospital. You were in the same local body we were in; and, don’t forget, when one member suffers, all suffer with that person.


Question

So, I ask you, based on the experience of John and Jane Anderson, was there unwarranted gross control by the elders over the members of The Church in Houston during part of your time there?

Why would you ask me? Is there any reason why you would think that I was aware or had any knowledge of what was going on with you and Jane? Do you think I have some knowledge of this case or had fellowship with RG and know his mind on it?

Based on what I read in the TOC I believe the elders exhibited extreme control. Based on the time frame this took place at the same time that I met with the church.

The real issue is "was it unwarranted". In hindsight I think it clearly was based on false accusations made from Anaheim. But I remember the atmosphere at the time. Was it unwarranted for RG and BP to respond to those accusations? Of course not. Was it unwarranted that they responded in the way they did? Before I answer, one little aside...

Let's be realistic, RG had a full time job to support his family in addition to being elder and BP didn't live in Houston, these brothers didn't have the time or resources to do an investigation. Does this justify their actions? No. But this is a problem that all churches have when accusations are made, how do you respond. Look at how the Catholic church dealt with priests that were accused of being pedophiles. The reality of many congregations is that there are many unsubstantiated rumors and accusations made over the years and no one has adequate resources to deal with them. The Catholic church did not quarantine those priests and they are now being damned for it, RG and BP did quarantine you and they are being damned for it.

OK, the question you are asking should be asked of the Lord Jesus. It is not for me to judge if RK and BP were unwarranted in their actions, it is for Him to decide. I suppose if I heard their side of the story I would be better equipped to judge, but who am I? I have no more knowledge of this case that anyone else in the LRC other than the fact that I was in Houston. Proverbs discusses the things that God hates and making false accusations to cause division between brothers is at the top of the list. Therefore I believe the ones responsible for the false accusations should be held most accountable.