[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

ZNP,

Nothing more terrifying than a long post by OBW that starts ZNP.

1. I never did take a poll. But, after six months on these various forums I think the situation has changed quite a bit from the late 70s.

2. Again, I don't think in the 70s it was that clear there was a central leadership. I cannot think of any other church that had any influence on how Houston was operated, and even if LSM did exercise influence at that point it was embraced by the elders and invisible to me.

3. My experience of the LRC was not the same as AZ described, that doesn't mean that others experience wasn't, but it does mean that for some it wasn't. Also, based on this, surely these experiences are had by many in all the various denominations and Christian gatherings.

4. My attitude towards Lee has become more complex, but in many ways consistent over the last 30+ years. I condemn the things that I feel were clearly to be condemned, and did so even while meeting in the LRC. I have already shared how I stood up in a meeting in NY and likened WL and his sons to Eli and his sons when we were being visited by some who had come from the LSM. I stood up in Irving and condemned BP in a testimony during the Lord's table. I was shunned, harassed, and generally insulted by the Blowhards, but I was never formally excommunicated.

5. To say I did not fully buck the system is not fully accurate. I didn't speak agains WL because I was not aware of any real issue (this was before JI left). But I definitely bucked the system. I gave a long testimony when I first came to the Bereans site about my experiences in Odessa. From my experience "the system" was the Texas Eldership and I surely did condemn them plainly, and in writing.

6. From 1978-1981 -- please give me a specific example of this "gross violation". Please do not use Jane Anderson as she left the same summer I walked in. I was unaware of her situation.

6. "My little bit of rebellion" was merely standing for the truth as I saw it. I wasn't trying to "rebel". And it took me 20 or 30 years to realize that the LRC was seriously flawed.

7. No doubt my experience isn't proof that AZ was wrong. But, I am unable to confirm what he said from my experience. Did I see saints that appeared to act in the way he described, yes. But, my experience in the Episcopal church let me see Christians that were far more nominal.

I do not want anyone to infer that I am disputing AZ's quote as being a valid reflection, all I want is some balance that it can not be considered true of all that were there at the time I was. To me this is like a pendulum. On one extreme you have those saying that WL is the MOTA and on the other you have this picture painted by AZ. The truth was far more complex. That is my experience. Why wouldn't I add that to this forum?
OBW:

"And this is, for me, evidence that we are not willing to conceive of the idea that ever being in the LRC was an error."

I have the very distinct experience of being sent to the LRC by the Lord. I have shared my experience of how a hurricane in Wales changed Rice from my 4th choice to my 1st choice of schools to go to. I have also shared my experience how the Lord spoke to me in New England to go back to Houston. I have also shared my experience of how I spent a year at Rice being visited by those in the LRC. My attitude was to not give them any encouragement at all, but my prayer was that I would be faithful to the Lord. I had many and repeated experiences of the Lord that told me to go to the LRC. No, I don't believe my being in the LRC was in error. Instead I believe that the LRC has fallen into terrible error and that the seeds of that error were there even in the 70s.

No doubt cults use your disaffection to lure you in. The problem is that when they were preaching to me I didn't have discontent. I was the happiest I had ever been, I was having a blast at college, and the last thing I wanted to do was to get involved with the LRC. But, I had received the Lord earlier in my life and I wanted to be faithful to Him.

Do I distort my testimony out of fear of a belief that I was at the center of God's move? Sorry, I believe that Jesus Christ is the center of God's will. If I am one with Him, then I am one with the center. If I stray, I stray from the center. I don't share my experiences out of fear that I may have been deficient, on the contrary I continue to speak truthfully so that I don't have to be ashamed of my speaking when I appear before the Lord.

OK, here is a testimony that I have not already shared in this detail. When I first got saved I was 13. I prayed to the Lord and He answered me so that I could hear a distinct voice in my head. I could not be sure if I was imagining this or if the Lord was actually speaking to me. But I was praying, He was answering, and and my concepts were getting destroyed. For example, shortly after my salvation, perhaps a couple of months later, I prayed "Lord you should have a people". He said "I do". I said "No, I don't mean the "spiritual church" I mean real people." He said "I do". So then I began to pray what this people, church, should be like. One of my fist concepts was that they should be more spiritual and smarter, etc. He rebuked me soundly for that and I dropped that concept ever since. I never shared this, but the testimonies that clinched the deal for me with the LRC were not the elders, there was a brother named Raul, he had one messed up eye, he couldn't read, it was his testimony, along with other brothers like him (marginal, ones that were of no repute) that sealed the deal. So, no, I never bought into the idea that we were the "spiritual elite".