Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
...if you just can't seem to conclude that it (tithing) is your responsibility at all, then maybe having some appreciation for the specific commands from scripture, even if mainly OT, that made the job of funding the practical aspects of the church everyone's, not just the rich. It might be better to at least have the sense that you should work toward a tithe, whatever that is, even if your reality is only to be able to give a little.
...we should have the sense before God that there is a requirement — some requirement. Not just a suggestion.
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Ah Brother,
I have not brought up this topic in order to force my will in the matter on anyone, for as I said in my opening sentence: "Tithing is a practice accepted, and rejected, by
real Believers"... Genuine Christians, honest Brothers and Sisters in Christ - so my feeling on the matter is, regardless of your stance, it does not in any way hinder my fellowship with you. I bring tithing to this forum however, because I do see many suffering under it's bondage - and that needs to be addressed. If they choose to tithe, so be it - but Believers ought to know what tithing in the Old Testament really was, and to understand what the church has turned it into through the centuries. People also need to understand that the idea of tithing resulting in a financial windfall, which is another fallacy I often heard preached, is also not Biblical. If it were, then surely all of the apostles would have died wealthy and peaceful as could be. God is not interested in funding us for a life of leisure. He is absolutely faithful to provide for our needs, yes - but financial prosperity isn't a need for anyone.
Should we not give for the ministrations of the saints and for the work of the Church - the evangelization of the World through the proclamation of the Good News of Jesus Christ?
Absolutely we should... but should it be a formulaic call for cash? If so, is there Scriptural support for that idea?
My brother, you have said
Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
There are too many verses that speak in too many directions to simply conclude that there is one answer. But as you start with Malachi, that one is specific to say that, whatever it is, it is a form of robbery to avoid it.
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I do not believe that I can agree with that assessment, and that is why I brought this matter forward. I am looking for one who believes in tithing to present to me not historical conjecture (IE: Solomon's Temple was likely financed by some unrecorded increase in the depth or scope of the tithe) - but proof from the Living Word of God that tithing, as it is taught from many pulpits today, is a real Christian obligation.... for that is what is taught by many: Not that tithing is an option, but that tithing is mandatory; and that those who do not tithe are under a curse.
The tithe wasn't money, and the tithe didn't include anything other than agricultural products, and therefore wasn't inclusive of anyone who was not already a land owner.
Tithes that were taken were not brought to the Levites to build up the temple (which, according to the Biblical record, was built by forced labour, and not by willing hands (1 Kings 5:13, and 1 Kings 9:14-21)). If any form of "tithe" is applicable today - then it likewise should not be for the building up of a church building - or funding a salary.
This is NOT to say that we should not build church buildings and that we should not fund salaries - BUT if Old Testament tithes are a type of a (theoretical) New Testament tithe, then we should see the same principals that applied then apply now in a fulfillment of the type.
I've written, re-written, and erased what I've begun here many times over, seeking not only the proper words but the proper heart for what I want to share. The Lord seems to keep leading me away from the arguments and back to His direct speaking... so let me go there for a moment.
Matthew 21:12-13 "Jesus entered the Temple and began to drive out all the people buying and selling animals for sacrifice. He knocked over the tables of the money changers and the chairs of those selling doves. He said to them, "The Scriptures declare, 'My Temple will be called a house of prayer,' but you have turned it into a den of thieves!"
Our Lord may actually have cleansed the Temple twice, because we read this same account in Mark 11:15-18 but also later in His ministry in John 2:14. Regardless of whether He cleansed the Temple once or twice, we need to see what it really is He cleansed the Temple of: Who were these "money changers", and what exactly were they doing that so enraged Him with a righteous anger?
They weren't selling Temple "souvenirs", nor were they changing money from one currency to another - Scripture is clear, they were "buying and selling animals for sacrifice". Does that sound wrong to your ears? To a Christian, who knows Christ as the perfect Sacrifice, perhaps... but this is before His crucifixion - Sacrifice was commanded by God for the cleansing of sins. People who came from too far away for this sacrifice (as remember, sacrifices to God could ONLY be done here at the Temple, and no where else in the World) would likely not drive their oxen to the Temple... I mean, at this point in the history of the nation of Israel, there were Jews scattered all over the Roman Empire - would they realistically make the journey back to Jerusalem annually as the Law required with oxen and sheep and doves in tow? Why wouldn't they simply purchase them here, to give God the Glory? What's wrong with that?
Don't we do that same thing today? How many church buildings have I seen that have a book store (LSM churches certainly do, and they're not at all alone in that), or a music department, or a sign up sheet for conferences or seminars or get-aways (maybe at $25.00 per person or $2,500.00 per). Does this differ in principal from what the money changers were doing? If it doesn't, then what does that mean?
What did Peter mean when, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, he said:
2nd Peter 2:1-3 (excerpted) "
But there arose also false prophets among the people, as also among you there will be false teachers, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies... And in covetousness, with fabricated words, they will make merchandise of you..."
The ESV translates this as "
And in their greed they will exploit you with false words."
We ought to give, but give as the Spirit leads. To know how the Spirit leads requires a closer walk with Him. To walk closer with Him requires more time in His Word and more time in Prayer. That is what He wants - that is where being a real Christian both begins and ends. Don't present 10% of your paycheck, present 100% of yourself - a LIVING sacrifice - your reasonable service to our Lord.
In Christ,
NeitherFirstnorLast