[Recovering]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Hi ThankfulForever777

I agree. Denminations are a wonderful thing. They can do so many different, interesting things. But why do they have to consider themselves a church? The church is supposed to be characterized by “God's love, good fruits and humility”. Just like you said.

But if that is so - how can there be divisions? Or how can we ignore them? Diversity is completely normal on this planet, except in a totalitarian system. And diversity should also prevail in the church. “IN” the church! Diversity ends where we have division.

Isn’t the special Christian thing that Christians do not separate over differences of opinion – because they remain humble and look to the cross? And isn’t that the testimony the planet is looking for?

PeterG My parents met saints from the Local Church when I was only a few months old. Their attraction to the group was natural given their experiences in a denomination that failed to form them spiritually in their (especially my father's) youth and then squelched their fervor for the gospel after they experienced a dynamic salvation in college. That was the mid-70's, and the corner of Christianity they came from was sleepy, and here was something new, fresh, and living, and people were excited to practice what they understood to be the genuine oneness. Witness Lee and many other groups (like Vinyard) rode the wave of the Jesus Revolution. I think there was a real move of the Holy Spirit in those days. My memories of life in the Local Church as a child are pretty positive. I learned to love the Bible, love God, and love others.

But what I think happened (and continues to happen, especially in non-denominational groups) is that there was a "baby" thrown out with the "bath water" (Das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten), which was the system of accountability that a denomination can/should provide. The leaders of these movements felt the Lord was with them, and He would protect them and their movement. When Witness Lee has uncovered "new light", he becomes "God's Oracle", or at least his ministry supposedly has the oracle, and now he's accountable to no one but God. In Witness Lee's ministry (who purported to be 100% one with Watchman Nee and to continue his ministry), hierarchy is seen as an evil that suppresses the "function" of the members, concern about right and wrong are seen only through the lens of hypocrites who practice the letter of the law and ignore the spirit of it. Denominations are seen only as divisive, worldly, degraded; anything to do with the denominational system is proclaimed to be mixture and evil leaven that can contaminate the whole lump. Don't touch it. Don't even pretend to touch it. And pretty soon you have a situation where accountability, protections, and 100s of years of lessons learned are all ignored because "we're the unique vessel to receive God's blessing" because we're standing on the "ground of oneness".

I understand from friends who experienced it that a similar trajectory has been traced by many groups with roots in the Jesus Revolution of the 60s and 70s. And listen to "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" for a more-recent example.

My point is it is wrong to equate denominations with division. For sure that can happen, but to be in a denomination is not necessarily divisive. In the years since I left TLR, I have become firmly convinced that the oneness that Jesus prayed for in John 17 is a matter of the heart of the members of the congregation and is influenced pretty strongly by their local leadership. I have seen leadership of my church and others reach out to join hands with other congregations in service, fellowship, preaching, teaching, and sharing of resources. I have heard quite a bit of speaking about the oneness of the Body of Christ (in the sense of the universal church) in my church (congregation) and others. (One of the problems in talking about this is that we use the same term "church" to refer both to our local congregation, with its system of administration, ministry focus, and particular people, and the universal Body of Christ.)

The ministry of Nee/Lee asserts that meeting with a denomination means "taking another name" which means "dividing the body of Christ." I understand why they asserted that, but I think it's wrong and has not been borne out in my experience. It is possible to experience the oneness of the Body of Christ and uphold the testimony of that oneness in a denomination, and chances are also good that in a denomination, systems of accountability are in place to make sure that abuse is minimized and is brought to light and dealt with when it occurs and that church life does not develop into a cult of personality around a particular individual. This is by no means a claim that such problems do not exist in denominations; but at least they are exposed and dealt with, not covered up "for the sake of the testimony".


But set yourself up in opposition to denominations and anyone meeting "in division" and refuse to accept help from them, don't put the systems in place to protect against fallen humanity because that's hierarchy and might be organization , and anyway the Lord will protect you because you're His unique testimony of oneness on the earth -- do those things, then don't be surprised when stories of abuse start to surface 40, 50, 60 years later.


This has been the experience of many here in this forum, and I hope it starts to explain our reticence to affirm Watchman Nee's vision of the local church.