[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems that the 7th Trumpet is a trumpet of a different kind. The first six (Rev 8.6-9.16) were distinct events of God's judgment, but the 7th Trumpet appears to extend into the Millennium. (Rev 11.14-18)

The 7th Trumpet has both positives and negatives, eg the gatherings in chap 14, a wheat harvest of believers and a grape harvest into the winepress of the fury of God. The parable of Tares may help here since the tares could NOT be harvested until the wheat is brought into His barn (Matt 13.30)

I am going to parse on this comment a bit later. I have a detailed expansion and explanation related to the 7th trumpet that may affect your current perception of it. (Maybe not... )

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul's words in 2 Thess 2 indicates he also received revelation of future events. How else could he know that the day of the Lord would not come until the Man of Sin is revealed and an identifiable apostasy of the church occurred.

I believe both the "man of sin" and "the apostasy of the church" are revealed clearly in the Old Testament. I'll address the apostasy now and I will see if I can compress a succinct version of the man of sin in another post. So, I am sticking with the idea that there is nothing from Paul that is direct revelation from God WITHOUT OT foundation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB95) - 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

1 Timothy 4:1–3 (NASB95)
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

I believe the expanded description of the word apostasy in 2 Th 2:3 is in 1 Tim 4:1-3. 1 Tim 4:1 says the "Spirit explicitly says". We can only take this one of two ways. The Holy Spirit gave direct revelation to Paul with no OT Scriptural foundation OR The Holy Spirit gave Paul a spiritual understanding of OT Scripture and events which ARE the "Spirit explicitly say(ing)" something about the apostasy described in 1 Ti 4:1-3.

Here it is in the Old Testament. I have this by revelation from the Lord. I asked the Lord about this verse for more than 15 years and then one day He showed it to me. Feel free to give me a hard time because I am claiming it was revealed to me by the Lord.

Read Numbers 25 and I will comment on verses 1 and 2 after some contextual setup.

Contextual Setup: The congregation in the wilderness is a representation of the ekklessia. 1 Cor 10, says that these ones wilderness are "types" of us. The church in this age has a start and end as a typological picture in the Old Testament. The church age STARTS by exiting from Egypt and (I believe) ENDS near the time of the destruction of Jericho. Numbers 33 gives us a full review of the journey through the wilderness. There are 40-41 stops along the way. In Numbers 33:49, we see the LAST STOP (mapping 1 Tim 4:1 - "in later times"). The LAST STOP is Abel-****tim (aka ****tim or Baal-Peor). So, in the progression of the "ekklessia in the wilderness" we have a progression from beginning to end and we have the "latter times" of this journey.

This contextual setup helps us also see how Paul could set the timing of the Day of the Lord after the man of sin is revealed and apostasy. There is more proof than just the contextual setup.

Now, let's look at Numbers 25:1-2 which tells us what happens at the LAST STOP in the journey to the promised land.

1 While Israel remained at ****tim, the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab.
2 For they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods.

There is a direct mapping between these two verses and 1 Tim 4:1

1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

paying attention to deceitful or seducing spirits --> play the harlot with the daughters of Moab
paying attention to doctrines of demons --> invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods

The mapping to doctrines of demons may seem obscure. The children of Israel were supposed to eat the manna from heaven. This is a picture of spiritual food we partake of now. So, "meat sacrificed to idols" is a picture of spiritual food from the wrong source which are "doctrines of demons". For me, this means the apostasy is already in full swing and increasing right now.

There is more to say, but I will stop there. This leaves the "man of sin" as unaddressed.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I see little scriptural basis that the rapture must be a single event. So many verses imply faithfulness, maturity, and watchfulness are needed.

Since the chap 14 "harvest" is called a reaping, and chap 12 mentions "firstfruits," there is much to indicate that early rapture "one is taken, one is left" is a reward for maturity.

I see one primary basis for the rapture as a single event. However, I also see that there will be a lot of martyrdom during the Great Tribulation. Martyrdom is not "the rapture", but it can be seen as the way that some leave the Great Tribulation earlier. I know this is an ugly view, but it is what I have considered to be able to account for Rev 7:9-17 as happening before a single event rapture.

My primary basis for the rapture as a single event is 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:52 and John 6:39-54. 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:52 both indicate the dead rise FIRST and then those who are alive and remain are raptured. This pushes the idea of rapture until after this first resurrection of the dead and these verses say ALL who are alive and remain will be raptured.

John 6:39-54 anchors this first resurrection of the dead "on the last day".

I understand what you are saying about first fruits and I agree that the ones who are taken up to the throne are firstfruits. (Do you link the Rev 12 - male child to the Rev 7 & 14 - 144k)

So, I do leave open the idea of two phases of rapture, but in general I do not think there is a "progressive" rapture. It seems there may be just two chunks with the rapture described in 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52 as being after the first resurrection which happens near the end of the Great Tribulation.

Comments?

Note: all my thinking on all the End Times stuff is based on tearing down everything I learned from others in the past and then just reading for 20+ years and various things emerged throughout the process as I asked questions of the Lord and He answered a little here, a little there.

Matt