[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I do not believe the church evades the Great Tribulation. I also do not fully believe the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. I believe there is a last trumpet that happens AFTER the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The 7 trumpets are trumpets of a different kind (or type). The OT shows different trumpets for different purposes. One of the purposes for OT trumpet soundings is to "gather" people together. The seven trumpets recorded in Revelation are pronouncing judgment.

It seems that the 7th Trumpet is a trumpet of a different kind. The first six (Rev 8.6-9.16) were distinct events of God's judgment, but the 7th Trumpet appears to extend into the Millennium. (Rev 11.14-18)

The 7th Trumpet has both positives and negatives, eg the gatherings in chap 14, a wheat harvest of believers and a grape harvest into the winepress of the fury of God. The parable of Tares may help here since the tares could NOT be harvested until the wheat is brought into His barn (Matt 13.30)

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT.

Paul's words in 2 Thess 2 indicates he also received revelation of future events. How else could he know that the day of the Lord would not come until the Man of Sin is revealed and an identifiable apostasy of the church occurred.

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Looking for time markers in the Bible there is only one timing for the rapture that synchronizes ALL scripture. It places the rapture at Revelation 16:15 which is pretty much a worst case scenario.

I see little scriptural basis that the rapture must be a single event. So many verses imply faithfulness, maturity, and watchfulness are needed.

Since the chap 14 "harvest" is called a reaping, and chap 12 mentions "firstfruits," there is much to indicate that early rapture "one is taken, one is left" is a reward for maturity.

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Most would argue that Revelation 16:15 is not possible because the "Wrath of God" (i.e. bowls of wrath) have already started, but I have done a thorough study on all the verses (and their Greek construction) related to the Church being saved "out of" or "from" the Wrath of God. The results are surprising and make it possible for the Church to be present on the earth, but not the target of God's wrath, all the way up to the 6th bowl, but not on the earth for the 7th bowl.

This should liven up the discussion... . And I know my thoughts are not even close to "orthodox" on this whole subject...

Matt

The judgments on Egypt come to mind. Our loving Father definitely wants His children to mature, and hardships can help. Revelation speaks of both persecution by man, and judgment by God. Peter says "judgment begins in the house of God." But obviously God has wrath for those who reject His Son, take the mark of the beast, and worship the AntiChrist, or should we say "False Christ" since in so many ways this Man of Sin will establish himself as a counterfeit to the real Christ, Israel's real Messiah. He will convince much of the world that Jesus was a total failure, and he alone shall be worshiped as God.

Your comment "most would argue" kind of summarizes Revelation studies. And recently I have had quite a few.