[ACuriousFellow]

I really appreciate your response, Nell. I’d like to add my own two cents.

Here is the first BreadFish quote Nell responded to:

Hi, Saints
I truely understand what you are talking. I also acknowledge that there are many problems in Local church. Anyway, we should spend more time to contact with our Lord Jesus and preach Gospel to others, instead of discussing how about Brother Lee, or how about Saint Paul, Saint Barabas? We should follow the good teachings of these brothers, right? Even Barabas left Paul, he is still a pattern of us since he sold all he has and consected himself to the Lord.

Here was Nell’s response:

I truly don't think you do understand. This forum is full of first-hand accounts of the abusive deeds of Local Church members toward others...mostly LC leadership toward those whom they are attempting to "shepherd".

Many of us kept our mouths shut about this abuse, while taking your advice, attempting to maintain "contact with our Lord Jesus". In my case, I have maintained contact with the Lord my entire life. Now his message to me is: SPEAK. Expose the deeds of darkness by whoever practices darkness. If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with the Father. I John 1:7.

Witness Lee was not accountable to anyone but himself. Then, under Witness Lee's leadership, the LC leaders learned that they are not accountable for their sinful behavior. Further, they have no problem abusing their brothers and sisters who "stray". Are these the "problems" you are acknowledging?

You are attempting to deflect the blame for the sins of LC leadership in order to maintain the Witness Lee MOTA illusion.

Perhaps you should deliver this message to those who practice abuse of the brothers and sisters as a way of life. Have you done that? You confront us, but have you confronted the sinning brothers?

My two cents: I agree that we must be careful to not carelessly say things like “we should follow the good teachings of these brothers” when there are instances of abuse within the church as well as false teachings that are not being delt with. If you have a magnificent teacher who has the happiest highest achieving students who is later found to have abused even one student, that teacher must be delt with swiftly and justly rather than appealing to the “good” they have done. Lee does not come close to even this hypothetical teacher I mentioned. He has covered up abuses and developed a system which perpetrates abuse while constantly telling people to “look away” and ignore the abuse. This is not even including the false teachings, though even if the teachings were sound, the abuse alone is reason enough to deal with such people decidedly. In my private time with the Lord, I spent many hours and days and months and years pondering these things and it was the Lord who rebuked me and told me that I need to speak up rather than continue to remain silent about such things. The same applies to everyone in The Lord’s Recovery.

1 Timothy 5:17-20

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.” Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may fear. I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

The second Breadfish quote Nell responded to:

Our Lord Jesus told us we should pay more attention to the greater things such as "Love, Mercy, Justice", not one tenth of "celery, fennel", either infinite arguments.

Nell’s response:

Please provide the "verse" you are referencing. There is more than one verse in the Bible. The penalty for what the LC practices might be described as follows:

n Luke 17:2, Jesus says, "It would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." In Matthew 18:6, Jesus says, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." In Mark 9:42, Jesus says, "Whoever causes one of these little ones who trust in me to fall into sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around his neck."

My two cents:

You are telling us to focus on “Love, Mercy, and Justice,” BreadFish? That is exactly what we are doing. There is a significant lack of love, mercy, and justice in The Lord’s Recovery when victims of abuse come forward and are given empty platitudes like “oh brother/sister, just focus on the greater things!” This is compounded by the common Recovery practice of demonizing those who dare to speak up before the congregation. An entry-level course in psychology would be more than enough to show you the folly of such a mindset and strategy, especially when it is repeated over and over and over again with thousands of saints. Lee and the current leaders of The Lord’s Recovery will often say “eat the meat, spit out the bones,” and “don’t focus on garbage,” but you have deadly splinters in your food that saints can choke on and garbage within the pews of your congregations that you are nose-blind to. If you don’t want the saints to eat bones, make the effort to remove them yourself before you feed God’s sheep. If you don’t want them to focus on garbage, then get rid of it and don’t let it stay and stink up the pasture. Do not quench the Spirit by allowing such things to fester in your assembly.

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil.

The third BreadFish quote:

I believe the Lord is working in the Local church. Brothers and Sisters in Local Church are true believers. Those who don't express Lord and misuse debuty authority or otherthings will be resposible for the Lord. Our Lord Jesus is governing all things. The older generation will past, the new generation will rise, the spiritual situation in different Local churchs are updating.

Nell’s response:

No one here promotes the thought that the Lord is not working in the Local Churches. No one here ever said that the Local Church members are not true believers. This forum exists to discuss the Local Church and the "ministry" of Witness Lee.

We have a real problem with the BEHAVIOR of the Local Church, mostly leadership. We have given multitudes of testimonies of the BEHAVIOR of the LC leadership. We have "covered the brothers" in their sinful behavior long enough. Now is the time to speak.

Those who abuse are responsible NOW. It's called SIN. This is the gospel. Jesus came to save his people from their SINS. Do you believe that the Local Church/leadership are exempt from repenting from their sins? Do you believe that the abusive Local Church leadership are unaccountable for their BEHAVIOR? To do as you suggest is blatant hypocrisy. There is no double standard. We are all the same in His eyes. There is no gospel that says wait until the end and let the Lord clean up the mess we were charged to deal with in our lifetime, in his gospel. Not yours.

Nell

My two cents:

I agree with Nell. As far as I have seen, very few ex-members have concluded that there are no genuine believers in The Lord’s Recovery and that the Lord is doing nothing. If the Lord was doing nothing, I would still have remained in there! As for those who misuse deputy authority, they must answer to the church as well. This is not the age of Saul and David. Witness Lee is not an apostle who cannot be challenged (and Peter is an example that apostles can indeed be rebuked when they act wickedly). We are not called to passively wait and suffer the acts of the older generation who refuses to repent. We are called to judge those within the Lord’s assembly.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

This is not one of the “infinite” arguments such as the age of the earth or some myth or genealogy. This is not how some brother was offended because the brother ahead of him in the lunch line took the last piece of meat-lovers’ pizza. These are matters of abuse as well as the grave doctrinal errors and church practices that have allowed for such abuse to go unanswered and that demonizes those who speak up.

Stop trying to make these things sound like trivial matters by giving your empty platitudes and acting like it’s not that big a deal. Deal with your churches, BreadFish, or the Lord will deal with you as well as the older generation. You will not be innocent before him simply because you passively and silently waited for the old wicked generation to die while you did nothing to stop them. Witness Lee and the leaders of The Lord’s Recovery are not Saul, and you are not young David. They are not uniquely anointed vessels that cannot be challenged or held to a proper standard by their fellow saints, and we must advocate for the weak and downcast rather than tell them to be silent. We have all received the Holy Spirit, and we must all answer the call of our Lord and speak up against wickedness, especially within our own assemblies.

James 4:17

If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.