Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
And where do we get his indwelling presence? Do we have to do spiritual things for it? The answers I find in scripture are at two levels. First, there is the kind of indwelling that comes with belief. We receive the Holy Spirit at that time. The second is the kind that is linked to obedience. And in the kind of scenario that Paul describes in Romans 8, the obedience and indwelling occur together. Paul does not say to wait for indwelling that will enable you to do it. He effectively says to trust in the one who will enable you, agree that it is true, and step out to do it with the understanding that you have his aid for the job. It is not wait for it to fall on you. Neither is it simply do it and hope he eventually comes along and helps you out. It is step out in the assurance that He is helping you as you take that first step.
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Amen! Yes, have assurance that He will give you what you need, when you need it. I have never suggested we ought not do works - I have stated however, that we are Saved not by works; but for works. Again, be doers of the Word, and not hearers only. At the same time, realize that Christ's command to His disciples upon leaving them was for them to wait in Jerusalem for that day of Pentecost, when they would be filled with the Holy Spirit and could
then go forth and fulfill His commands with the Power of the Holy Spirit. They could not go out before hand, and Christ knew they could not. Therefore He asked them to wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit, poured out from on High by the The Father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
And as I have recently said in another place, if you are busy doing spiritual/mystical things without obedience you are not engaged in a Christian/scriptural endeavor. If you are seeking the truth to set you free so that you will then obey, you will not find the truth.
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Amen! Again, I agree. I have said that I have been distraught by the lack of Christian works within the LSM churches. There is no call to, say, aid the people of Haiti as they rebuild - all the while evangelizing them. Even the Bibles for America and Bibles for Canada program, which seem on the surface to be healthy Gospel preaching, really have a second purpose: To spread the work of LSM. The Bibles are free to those who receive them, but as LSM is the printer (as sole owner of Bibles for America), and since the 'local churches' pay for those bibles, really - this is again a matter of Mammon. Although the Gospel may be spread, one must question the motives of the heart when it is done is such a way as this. The Word gives life, and we do not need the words of man to add to it. But I digress.... No brother, in this I agree with you: It is wrong to teach that to sit back and "enjoy" is the sole purpose of the Christian life. Such Christians are of no use to the Lord, and He testifies to this in His Word to those in Laodicea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
And hearing those old LRC phrases like "the 10 commandments were never intended to be obeyed" are just plain wrong. (You did not say that.) It is obvious that we are not, in ourselves, able to truly obey them. But we were given that yardstick for more than just to prove we could not. We were expected to try, fail, and repent to God. Then, after Jesus came, we were expected to believe into Christ and get the source of power to actually fulfill them. And a lot more. Like don't even look on another woman with lust (as an example that is stated clearly in scripture).
With so much power at our disposal to live God's righteousness, why do we continue to say we cannot and sit around in defeat, seeking after alternate sources of power? It is, in part, because snake oil salesmen have convinced us that we need the truth that sets us free first, then we will be able to obey. But scripture says otherwise. It says that if we obey, then the truth that sets us free is ours. Doing it the other way around is to search the scriptures to find God, but ignore God standing in front of you.
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Brother, in Christ I love you - though I don't know you as a person in flesh and blood I know you by the passion you exhibit here. Please don't take anything I have written to you as a criticism. It would be wrong of me to criticize you, as you are a child of God no less than am I. And I too struggle - we all do; it is normal Christian living. If there is no struggle, as even Paul testified to (
the things I do I do not want to do, and the things I want to do I do not do), then I cannot imagine that the life of Christ is there at all.
Brother, I amen 99% of what you say, my only concern (and perhaps I am wrong in my understanding of what you have written), is that you are placing the emphasis on the doing before the indwelling presence of God - which, if we truly have it, ought to be that which motivates us
to do. A tree is known by it's fruit - and if we have Him in us; if the branch Abides in the vine, it ought to produce fruit. There are many we both know who produce no fruit, but who might talk a very good game. They certainly sound like they're really abiding, and certainly may act like it, but there is no blessing. We are given discernment in a certain measure - and the more time we spend with Him, in His Word, in His presence in prayer, the more discernment we may be given. With this discernment we might see that there is no evidence of the life of God in some. When we see this, we need to encourage them - and pray for them - and trust that God has put them where they are and you where you are for a purpose.
I think we have exhausted what can be said on this subject to eachother, I want only to leave you with one story from His Word which I've been considering:
Matthew 19:16-23 "
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven."
First, this man does not see Jesus for who He really is: The Son of God and God the Son, the Christ, the Messiah. He sees Him only as a good teacher. Many of the lost in religion see Him this way today. They do not know Him at all, although they believe they do because they might know a good deal about Him.
Second, this man asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. He places the emphasis on his own doing. Why? Because he is looking for a pat on the back: He claims that he HAS kept all of the laws since his youth. Now, if that were really true - then surely the Lord need not have died on the cross for the sins of the World. This man says he overcame where everyone else on Earth (except perhaps Enoch, who was taken up bodily?) failed. Where Adam failed. Where Cain failed. Where Noah failed. Where Abraham failed. Where Jacob failed. Where the tribes of Israel failed. Where Peter failed. Where Paul failed. But this man testifies that he did not fail.
He is a fool, and Christ exposes him by stating that he must keep the commandments if he wants eternal life. That is why He said it; to expose him - not to teach us that we need to keep the commandments to inherit eternal life. I don't know of single Saved Christian or Observant Jew who could say that they can keep the commandments. It is why God gave us the Blood. To wash us clean. I need to turn to Him daily - hourly - with every word I write here. I need to ask, "
Lord - keep this angry flesh of mine quiet - and cover me when I write. Lord, Your words, and not mine - please Lord!"
When the man asks what else he must do, Christ tells him. And now the man shows us his true condition: Even though he claims to love the Law, and to have ALWAYS obeyed it, when offered eternal life he shows that the price for it is too great for him. Christ does not offer to abide in Him because he kept the law, Christ tells him it isn't enough. There's more. "Give your life to Me.", is another way to say what He said. And ultimately,
that's what we really need to do.
We need to renounce what we have for Christ; and we must never think that we need to qualify ourselves before He will equip us. He equips us, and by this we become qualified.
Worship, praise, and enjoying Him in our 'inner life' are normal, natural and healthy parts of our Christian living... but the
proof of the reality of this inner life comes in the outward expression of His living in us. We do step out, and step forth, and share what He calls us to share. In the moment when we need to speak for Him, His Word (if we abide in it), will come forth. We can fulfill the Great Commission only through Him, and never apart from Him. He never intended us to fulfill it without Him - that's why the Father sent another helper.
If keeping the Law were enough, then Judaism would have it right and we Christians would all be wrong. We would have no hope.
Do not let the trials of your experience within LSM sour so much of your enjoyment that you would oppose all that they taught. They certainly got a lot of things wrong - but the greatest lies contain a good deal of truth too, brother. That's why the Enemy is so good at confusing us - he knows how to dose just enough of the healthy food with his poison.
I close in Christ, and I thank you for your fellowship.
In Him,
Ray