Quote:
Originally Posted by bettercountry
Trapped - I think the heart of the question you raise is excellent and a very fair point. My initial response would be that there were most certainly elements of what you're saying (e.g. charismatic movement of the general era) that play into some of my nostalgia. However, for me at least, I know it goes far deeper than that. Over the years, I have gone through a similar personal exercise numerous times of trying to separate the sheer emotional aspects of what I miss versus the more meaningful spiritual reasons. And, what I've come away with -- and with much personal clarity -- is that the heart of what I long for (and what is absent for the most part in Christianity at large) are the deep spiritual TRUTHS (yes, we must weed through and decipher from the many lies/heresies) that I came to know in the LC, as well as the freedom in Christ for all members to freely participate, whether in small or large settings.
Let me give you an example of what I mean by the deeper spiritual truths. At the risk of offending many members/readers of this forum, I will say that there are many hymns in the LC hymnal, even many that were written by WL, that contain rich truths. Some examples would be "In the holiest place", "Gracious Lord, Thy Name, 'I AM' is", "I've found the One of peerless worth". Precious TRUTHS about who GOD/CHRIST is. No glory in what I'm saying goes to WL. It all goes to God Himself, because the truths that are spoken of in those hymns (just an example) are FACTS about who He is.
This is also an example of what I meant in my initial post about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Humanly, whenever we come to see/know anyone that does something as egregious as WL did, especially from the mid-80s onward (but, yes, even before that timeframe), it's natural and maybe excusable to dismiss ALL of what that person did/said. But, sorry, I can never agree with that stance. We all are unrighteous to some degree, and no matter what degree that is, that means we all don't deserve ANYONE listening to ANY of us about ANYTHING. So, what does that leave us with? Unless we come to the ability to look beyond the person (with all his/her flaws) and just look for truths, then we will be prone to live out the rest of our days in the "monastery" of our own pride. Of course, there are cases where certain individuals should be totally shunned, but for me.....WL is not in that category, specifically some of the things that were taught prior to the 80s. Again, I know I'm ruffling a LOT of feathers here, and I really don't want to get into this argument.
Point is, even with those simple examples of the hymns I mentioned -- which if you carefully read the lyrics -- are not necessarily tremendously deep in terms of Christian doctrine, but.....unfortunately, at least in the churches I have been a part of in the past 30+ years, nothing even comes close to something like that.
Anyway, I am not very eloquent, so most likely, the heart of what I'm trying to say is being poorly communicated.
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bettercountry,
Well, consider my feathers ruffled!
Since you don't want to get into the argument (fair enough), I'll just say that my short response is this - if someone is unrighteous and has flaws, he's human. But if there is a long-term pattern of unrighteousness, combined with cover ups, ruining of lives, refusal to acknowledge and confess and repent and change even in light of half a century of people speaking the truth of the problems, as well as the creation and preservation of a system that is directly responsible for numerous suicides......I think there are grounds to dismiss the person as a whole. It's the lack of repentance that is the sticking point, not the mistakes. We all make mistakes. But we all don't go burning people's lives down and doubling down on Scripture twisting in order to continue to cover up those mistakes. The famous apologist Ravi Zacharias was very eloquent and stated Christian truths in ways that wowed many people, and yet....in light of his life and behavior, I'm not going to waste another second listening to a thing he said.
I've looked at the hymns you mentioned, and while they are eloquent and heavily descriptive, I guess I just have to have been there to understand the draw. The truths found in those hymns are readily found in the Bible as well as in Christian churches, even if they are not gathered together and consolidated in such a way.
Your comment about the freedom for all members to freely participate strikes me as funny, considering the "freedom" in the local church is to only re-speak what Witness Lee spoke and nothing else. However, maybe 50 years ago it was not like that. Additionally, the 10-day long trainings and various conferences in the LC were just that - one man speaking. I guess I don't understand why people "complain" about a pastor speaking for 30 minutes on a Sunday when Lee spoke for, what......1.5 hours times 3 meetings per day times 10 days = 45 hours at the trainings?
Again, maybe it was totally different for a few years in the 70s. I believe what you are saying, but I guess I still don't quite get it. It's okay though. Thanks for your response and hope you stick around!
Trapped