[Matt Anderson]

First of all, I appreciate your thoughful reply. I have landed in a different place than you in my thinking, but I do understand where you are coming from on this subject.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Matt,
I believe that people who go on that path, are fully aware of what’s going on. Holy Spirit works in born again believers, and conscience is one of the avenues that’s used for warning and alarming people that they are starting to depart, listening and heeding to other things, and so on. It is when all of those things are ignored and thrown into trash, because it fits them and their hearts desires better, then the warnings are no longer can be heard. From that point, there is no longer any awareness of what’s going on.

I agree that the Holy Spirit is a true and faithful witness inside us. I agree that we make choices and decisions that progressively sear our conscience to an insensitive state. I also believe that we can interact with spirits that are not the Holy Spirit in our pursuit of the "knowledge of God" because we DESIRE to know things. This DESIRE makes us susceptible to communication from seducing spirits without knowing they are seducing spirits. In my journey with the Lord, I have become aware not just by analysis, but various experiences that many believers interact with seducing spirits while thinking they are interacting with the Holy Spirit. Once you are trained, you can separate between them and not interact with seducing spirits but there is almost no one that will talk about this matter.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

If they didn’t know or had no awareness then why would their conscience become seared?

Here is what I think is important to consider. It has been observed through various social science studies that children absorb everything in their environments without any kind of "critical filter" up until about the age of 13. Different children develop a "critical filter" at different points, but it is around the age 13 (on average). So, all of the inputs that go into a child up until around the age of 13 when they begin to question things is resident in them. This why we can have such different cultures for various groupings on the earth. The "teachings" received before the activation of a "critical filter" are their beliefs (or cult/culture). These "teachings" are programmed outside of the awareness of every child. In most cases, a portion of these beliefs are never critically analyzed at any point in life. They are assumptive/presumptive. I am certain that every single child is programmed with a mixture of truth and deception by their parents and their environment. Now, let's consider how the soul can be damaged by the environment we grow up in and how this can establish a seared conscience without awareness. I believe all us are born whole, our souls are damaged to some degree (greater or lesser) by our upbringing, and then if we are saved and enter into a life of submitted discipleship our souls are restored (Psalms 23) to their original state.

Taking an extreme example, consider a child who grows up in an abusive home. They are programmed with a sense of normality that is plainly sinful. They are also damaged and have to learn how to cope with a hostile environment. It is consistently observable that a child in a hostile environment will enter into patterns of sinfulness in response as defensive/protective measures to survive. So, they have established patterns of thought and behavior that are implicityly sinful and they are not aware without healthy parenting. I believe a child like this has a completely desensitized conscience based on their choices and decisions even before they have reached the point where they can process anything with a critical filter. I believe there are many people who are in various states of damage who come into groups like the LC. More significantly damaged souls are implicitly more open to interaction with seducing spirits than those who have less damaged souls.

This is the briefest form of explanation I can give on how a conscience can become seared without really realizing it.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Also, I think that there is a huge difference between deception, and lack of knowledge and understanding.

I agree they are different. Deception is simply a state of implicitly OR explicitly believing something that is not true. You can be in a state of deception with little or much knowledge. In essence, you can be in a state of deception with or without knowing it.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

But also I see a very big difference between deception and seduction, just look what deception is:
-the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.
Vs
What is seduction or being seduced is:

-to persuade to disobedience or disloyalty.
-to lead astray usually by persuasion or false promises.

I believe there is a difference between deception and seduction, but I also think they work hand in hand. Let's go back to the original example. In Genesis 3:1-6 we see both deception and seduction working together. Satan tempts Eve by the combined means of seduction and deception. It is not too hard to persuade someone to act against their conscience when you offer them something they desire.

Genesis 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You shall not surely die. 5 For God knows that on the day you both eat from it, then your eyes will be opened and you both shall be like gods, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes, and the tree was desirable to make one wise, then she took from its fruit and she ate.

I believe this is the prototypical example from the Bible that explains the relationship between seduction and deception. If there was nothing seductive about the tree of knowledge of good and evil then Eve would have stuck with her first answer in response to Satan's initial approach to her.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other animal which Yahweh God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God indeed say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, 3 but from the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God said, ‘You shall not eat from it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die’.”

Why didn't Eve just repeat that what God had said when Satan further tempted her? She didn't because "she saw the tree was good for food and that it was a DELIGHT to the eyes, and the tree was DESIRABLE to make one wise".

It is true in this example that she was aware of what she was doing was against God's command, but her desire overrode.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Paul, used the word “seducing” spirits, and not people being deceived in this particular situation. As a basic definition of it above, there are things that are offered, promises made, satisfaction guarantees and encouragement and persuasion that takes place. It requires one to give something up or “depart for greener pasture”, or disloyalty / disobedience, to gain something in return. This is what “seduction” is, and it’s done with full consent. Usually or in most cases, spiritual seduction happens because people are seeking higher “spiritual satisfactions”, that are not offered or found anywhere in the Bible.

In our day and age, people want the same thing Eve did. They DESIRE things that MAKE ONE WISE. This is one of the things that the seducing spirits offer. They offer knowledge of spiritual things. This DESIRE to KNOW is in everyone I have ever met. Seducing spirits can also offer other things as you describe ("spiritual satisfactions"), but knowledge of spiritual things is one of their offerings.

The Bible defines the sin of divination. Divination is to gain spiritual knowledge (from beyond the physical realm) from another source than God. I have seen this happen to others. I have committed the sin of divination before I understood what it really was. It is a subtle sin, but it is very real and something that basically every single Christian on earth today has committed without knowing it. I know that may be shocking to hear, but once you understand the reality of the sin of divination then your eyes are opened and it is shocking to realize how prevalent it is.

I have asked numerous ex-LCer's what the attraction to the LC was for them. There are various answers, but the DESIRE to attain MORE KNOWLEDGE of God and the Bible is high on most people's list. They saw Witness Lee as a great teacher who KNEW SO MUCH about the Bible and they wanted to KNOW too. This forum has done a good job at highlighting many false teachings and doctrines of demons that emanate from the LC. If you only have a background with these bad doctrines from the LC, then you may not realize that the LC is not special. The exact same doctrines of demons are taught in other similar groups. This is no accident. The seducing spirits know what is attractive to believers. They know how to present their doctrines in a manner that many people will not perceive that is not the Holy Spirit.

I know our side discussion here is off-topic, but I will close with a connecting statement. This thread is, in part, from a DESIRE to know whether christians will have to endure some or all of a thousand years of outer darkness. Witness Lee (and many other christian teachers) want to answer questions others have. Have Witness Lee (and other christian teachers) entered into interactions with seducing spirits to come up with some their teachings including subjects like the topic of this thread?

Matt