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Matt Anderson · 04-10-2022, 06:47 AM

The rapture - part 2

Here are all the passages I have identified that address specific and important aspects of the rapture. I think there may be a few foreshadowings in the Old Testament as well, but first the New Testament passages.

Rather than trying to explain all the different scenarios I mentioned in my part 1 post and how they fit or don't fit all the scripture, I want to start by sharing a "Worst Case Scenario". This "Worst Case Scenario" doesn't completely rule out all other options, but I think it is a good baseline. Once I have it laid out, then we can start looking at the better scenarios and see if they hold up as well as this "Worst Case Scenario"

I am going to say "church age believers" whenever I am referring specifically to members of the Church. If I say "saints", then I am including the possibility of believers who may be what others call "tribulation saints" as well as "church age believers". If you believe that the church is totally raptured before the start of the Great Tribulation then you don't agree that "saints" = "church age believers" + "tribulation saints". You believe "church age believers" are gone and there are only "tribulation saints". I am clear that I can poke a big hole of doubt in this interpretation, but this does not mean that I am totally convinced there is no possibility of a pre-tribulational rapture of all the "church age believers". Based on what I am about to share, the likelihood of a pre-tribulational rapture has moved down to one of the LEAST LIKELY possibilities, but this doesn't mean it can't happen. (Note: I surely prefer a pre-tribulational rapture of the whole church, but intellectually honest study of the Word has not allowed me to take up that position as reliable.)

Key Passages (in biblical order)

Matthew 24:29-31 (Jesus coming in the clouds, trumpet call, gathering "the elect")
Matthew 24:36-44 (be alert/ready, like a thief allusion)
Luke 12:35-48 (be alert/ready)
1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (dead raised to incorruptibility, at the last trumpet)
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (relationship to wrath)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (Jesus in the clouds, shout & trumpet of God, caught up - gk. harpizo)
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 (day of the Lord as thief in the night)
2 Peter 3:10-14 (Jesus' coming is like a thief)
Revelation 3:3 (like a thief reference)
Revelation 3:10 (one church kept out of "hour of trial")
Revelation 16:15-16

Here are some comments based on these verses that relate to the subject of Rapture...

To some extent, Matthew 24 links Jesus' second coming with "like a thief". Verse 30 shows Jesus appearing in the sky where everyone sees it. If you keep reading it is a continuous theme related to His second coming and verses 42-44 use the picture of a thief coming.

To a significant extent, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:2 link Jesus' second coming, the rapture and "like a thief" to be at or near the same time (not years apart). If you read starting in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 all the way to at least 5:2 you can see the linkage between "coming like a thief" and the rapture.

I'm not trying to say that these linkages (between 2nd coming, "like a thief", and the rapture) are completely definitive from an analytical point of view. However, when you see correlating references to trumpets and "like a thief" with both rapture and Jesus' second coming and then you read Revelation 16:15 the main issue left is how to resolve what the Word says about being "delivered from the coming wrath" (1 Th 1:10). Additionally, there isn't anything that helps you separate them to two different events at two different time frames.

Here are some key points I think are worth considering.

Key Points about the relationship of the Rapture to Great Tribulation & God's Wrath

church age believers are not appointed or "destined" for wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), while non-believers are (multiple verses)
saints are delivered from (gk. apo/s575 or gk. ek/s1537), depending on the source manuscript) the coming wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) - these two tiny greek prepositions (apo and ek) play an important role in some of what I will share.
the "Great Tribulation" seems to be referred to synonymously as the "hour of trial" that comes to the whole earth
there no verses that equate "Great Tribulation" with "God's wrath".
there are verses that appear to separate "Great Tribulation" from "God's wrath" (close reading and collation of Joel 2:10-11 & Matthew 24:30-31) show "God's wrath" coming just after "Great Tribulation"
there are no verses that state that the church age believers will not experience the "Great Tribulation". People assume this based on the pre-tribulational rapture teaching.
In my opinion, there is no valid argument which asserts that God's nature or the salvation of Jesus Christ precludes church age believer's from enduring tremendous suffering (up to and including martyrdom). One of God's main goals from this age is to bring each believer to full maturity in Christ and this can include tremendous suffering. The Bible and history bear this out.

Key Points about the relationship of the Rapture to "Coming Like a Thief"

If you start reading in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 and continue through to 1 Thessalonians 5:2, I believe "Coming Like a Thief" is directly connected to the Rapture event.
Revelation 16:15 places the time of "coming like a thief" between the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath. As mentioned in a previous post, I believe the 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet happen at almost the same time.
Revelation 3:3 places church age believers (from Sardis) in the position of being surprised by Jesus "coming like a thief" if they are not alert. How is this possible if all church age believers have been raptured?
All verses talking about "like a thief" are clear that the experience of being surprised (as a thief in the night) only applies to those who are NOT READY and NOT WATCHING. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 is clear, "but you, brothers, are not in the darkness, so that the day should catch you like a thief".
Even though Jesus does not suprise those who are READY and ALERT like a thief would, the verses still indicate that the "day and the hour" are unknown and unexpected so there is still some element of surprise possible.

Additional Key Points

Revelation 3:10 indicates church age believers (from Philadelphia) will be kept from the "hour of trial" that will affect the whole earth. This is 1 of 7 church age churches. What about the rest? If you think about Sardis, Jesus can only come to them "like a thief" if they are present up until the time Jesus comes "like a thief" in Revelation 16:15 between the 6th and 7th bowl
there are three separate references to trumpets (Matthew 24:31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) and they connect to BOTH his second coming and the rapture. Two of them are specific to rapture (1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16) and 1 Cor 15:52 anchors the time to the LAST trumpet. I tend to believe that all these trumpet references are referring to the SAME trumpet event which is the last trumpet (i.e. seventh trumpet of Revelation) and happens at about the same time as the seventh bowl of wrath.
Saying that we do not know the "day or the hour" does not say we cannot know the year or the month. I believe that the last 3.5 years are a set amount of time. We will know when it starts (pretty closely, but maybe not exactly), so we will be able to know it is 3.5 years later giving us a year and a month. Knowing the year and/or month does not violate any scripture.

At this point, you may think I am violating the logic of my own points. Specifically, I've said that the church age believers are not appointed (destined) for wrath and that the saints are delivered from (apo or ek) wrath. How can I turn around and then place ANY of the saints on the earth during the bowls of wrath.

Let's look closely at the two primary verses that define the relationship of the saints to God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - and to await his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, the one who delivers us from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

The Bible is absolutely clear that the target of wrath is not the saints. This does not preclude the possibility of the saints being on some part of the earth during SOME of the bowls of wrath. The verse is 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says "delivers us FROM the coming wrath". In most manuscripts, the greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537) is used, but in some manuscripts the greek word "apo" (Strong's 575) is used. I have done some laborious study on both of these and have found a greek scholar that tried to determine if "apo" or "ek" was the correct word. He believes it is "ek", but leaves room that a 100% definitive conclusion cannot be made.

"ek" means "out of" or "away from", but the Strong's entry starts with this information. "Ek" is a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause;.

This definition leaves the interpretation of the meaning of this verse entirely open to the saints being present on the earth even after God starts pouring out the bowls of wrath.

So, I don't believe I am violating the logic of my own points and in this "Worst Case Scenario" some members of the church (i.e. church age believers) could be present on the earth up until just before Armegeddon.

This is my least favorite view of the Rapture, but applying as much intellectual honesty as I can it is the one that fits the totality of Scripture the best. Again, this does not mean that other possibilities are precluded. God is all-powerful and can do what He wants. He could plan for a "secret" rapture of some at a different point and not record it in Scripture in a way that it is interpretable by men's mind. He could plan for some kind of progressive rapture.

The main point of this post is to put forward a view that tears down the "pre-tribulational" rapture as the foregone conclusion. I'm also putting forward a whole new perspective that I haven't seen many look at. In the end, my goal is not to have a new view that I claim is correct. My goal is to encourage everyone to talk to the Lord and ask Him for revelation as it is needed to navigate in the time of His Second Coming.

04-10-2022, 06:47 AM	#184
Matt Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 155	Re: Prophecy - The End Times The rapture - part 2 Here are all the passages I have identified that address specific and important aspects of the rapture. I think there may be a few foreshadowings in the Old Testament as well, but first the New Testament passages. Rather than trying to explain all the different scenarios I mentioned in my part 1 post and how they fit or don't fit all the scripture, I want to start by sharing a "Worst Case Scenario". This "Worst Case Scenario" doesn't completely rule out all other options, but I think it is a good baseline. Once I have it laid out, then we can start looking at the better scenarios and see if they hold up as well as this "Worst Case Scenario" I am going to say "church age believers" whenever I am referring specifically to members of the Church. If I say "saints", then I am including the possibility of believers who may be what others call "tribulation saints" as well as "church age believers". If you believe that the church is totally raptured before the start of the Great Tribulation then you don't agree that "saints" = "church age believers" + "tribulation saints". You believe "church age believers" are gone and there are only "tribulation saints". I am clear that I can poke a big hole of doubt in this interpretation, but this does not mean that I am totally convinced there is no possibility of a pre-tribulational rapture of all the "church age believers". Based on what I am about to share, the likelihood of a pre-tribulational rapture has moved down to one of the LEAST LIKELY possibilities, but this doesn't mean it can't happen. (Note: I surely prefer a pre-tribulational rapture of the whole church, but intellectually honest study of the Word has not allowed me to take up that position as reliable.) Key Passages (in biblical order) Matthew 24:29-31 (Jesus coming in the clouds, trumpet call, gathering "the elect") Matthew 24:36-44 (be alert/ready, like a thief allusion) Luke 12:35-48 (be alert/ready) 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (dead raised to incorruptibility, at the last trumpet) 1 Thessalonians 1:10 (relationship to wrath) 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (Jesus in the clouds, shout & trumpet of God, caught up - gk. harpizo) 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 (day of the Lord as thief in the night) 2 Peter 3:10-14 (Jesus' coming is like a thief) Revelation 3:3 (like a thief reference) Revelation 3:10 (one church kept out of "hour of trial") Revelation 16:15-16 Here are some comments based on these verses that relate to the subject of Rapture... To some extent, Matthew 24 links Jesus' second coming with "like a thief". Verse 30 shows Jesus appearing in the sky where everyone sees it. If you keep reading it is a continuous theme related to His second coming and verses 42-44 use the picture of a thief coming. To a significant extent, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:2 link Jesus' second coming, the rapture and "like a thief" to be at or near the same time (not years apart). If you read starting in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 all the way to at least 5:2 you can see the linkage between "coming like a thief" and the rapture. I'm not trying to say that these linkages (between 2nd coming, "like a thief", and the rapture) are completely definitive from an analytical point of view. However, when you see correlating references to trumpets and "like a thief" with both rapture and Jesus' second coming and then you read Revelation 16:15 the main issue left is how to resolve what the Word says about being "delivered from the coming wrath" (1 Th 1:10). Additionally, there isn't anything that helps you separate them to two different events at two different time frames. Here are some key points I think are worth considering. Key Points about the relationship of the Rapture to Great Tribulation & God's Wrath church age believers are not appointed or "destined" for wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), while non-believers are (multiple verses) saints are delivered from (gk. apo/s575 or gk. ek/s1537), depending on the source manuscript) the coming wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) - these two tiny greek prepositions (apo and ek) play an important role in some of what I will share. the "Great Tribulation" seems to be referred to synonymously as the "hour of trial" that comes to the whole earth there no verses that equate "Great Tribulation" with "God's wrath". there are verses that appear to separate "Great Tribulation" from "God's wrath" (close reading and collation of Joel 2:10-11 & Matthew 24:30-31) show "God's wrath" coming just after "Great Tribulation" there are no verses that state that the church age believers will not experience the "Great Tribulation". People assume this based on the pre-tribulational rapture teaching. In my opinion, there is no valid argument which asserts that God's nature or the salvation of Jesus Christ precludes church age believer's from enduring tremendous suffering (up to and including martyrdom). One of God's main goals from this age is to bring each believer to full maturity in Christ and this can include tremendous suffering. The Bible and history bear this out. Key Points about the relationship of the Rapture to "Coming Like a Thief" If you start reading in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 and continue through to 1 Thessalonians 5:2, I believe "Coming Like a Thief" is directly connected to the Rapture event. Revelation 16:15 places the time of "coming like a thief" between the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath. As mentioned in a previous post, I believe the 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet happen at almost the same time. Revelation 3:3 places church age believers (from Sardis) in the position of being surprised by Jesus "coming like a thief" if they are not alert. How is this possible if all church age believers have been raptured? All verses talking about "like a thief" are clear that the experience of being surprised (as a thief in the night) only applies to those who are NOT READY and NOT WATCHING. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 is clear, "but you, brothers, are not in the darkness, so that the day should catch you like a thief". Even though Jesus does not suprise those who are READY and ALERT like a thief would, the verses still indicate that the "day and the hour" are unknown and unexpected so there is still some element of surprise possible. Additional Key Points Revelation 3:10 indicates church age believers (from Philadelphia) will be kept from the "hour of trial" that will affect the whole earth. This is 1 of 7 church age churches. What about the rest? If you think about Sardis, Jesus can only come to them "like a thief" if they are present up until the time Jesus comes "like a thief" in Revelation 16:15 between the 6th and 7th bowl there are three separate references to trumpets (Matthew 24:31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) and they connect to BOTH his second coming and the rapture. Two of them are specific to rapture (1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16) and 1 Cor 15:52 anchors the time to the LAST trumpet. I tend to believe that all these trumpet references are referring to the SAME trumpet event which is the last trumpet (i.e. seventh trumpet of Revelation) and happens at about the same time as the seventh bowl of wrath. Saying that we do not know the "day or the hour" does not say we cannot know the year or the month. I believe that the last 3.5 years are a set amount of time. We will know when it starts (pretty closely, but maybe not exactly), so we will be able to know it is 3.5 years later giving us a year and a month. Knowing the year and/or month does not violate any scripture. At this point, you may think I am violating the logic of my own points. Specifically, I've said that the church age believers are not appointed (destined) for wrath and that the saints are delivered from (apo or ek) wrath. How can I turn around and then place ANY of the saints on the earth during the bowls of wrath. Let's look closely at the two primary verses that define the relationship of the saints to God's wrath. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - and to await his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, the one who delivers us from the coming wrath. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 - because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ The Bible is absolutely clear that the target of wrath is not the saints. This does not preclude the possibility of the saints being on some part of the earth during SOME of the bowls of wrath. The verse is 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says "delivers us FROM the coming wrath". In most manuscripts, the greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537) is used, but in some manuscripts the greek word "apo" (Strong's 575) is used. I have done some laborious study on both of these and have found a greek scholar that tried to determine if "apo" or "ek" was the correct word. He believes it is "ek", but leaves room that a 100% definitive conclusion cannot be made. "ek" means "out of" or "away from", but the Strong's entry starts with this information. "Ek" is a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause;. This definition leaves the interpretation of the meaning of this verse entirely open to the saints being present on the earth even after God starts pouring out the bowls of wrath. So, I don't believe I am violating the logic of my own points and in this "Worst Case Scenario" some members of the church (i.e. church age believers) could be present on the earth up until just before Armegeddon. This is my least favorite view of the Rapture, but applying as much intellectual honesty as I can it is the one that fits the totality of Scripture the best. Again, this does not mean that other possibilities are precluded. God is all-powerful and can do what He wants. He could plan for a "secret" rapture of some at a different point and not record it in Scripture in a way that it is interpretable by men's mind. He could plan for some kind of progressive rapture. The main point of this post is to put forward a view that tears down the "pre-tribulational" rapture as the foregone conclusion. I'm also putting forward a whole new perspective that I haven't seen many look at. In the end, my goal is not to have a new view that I claim is correct. My goal is to encourage everyone to talk to the Lord and ask Him for revelation as it is needed to navigate in the time of His Second Coming.