[UntoHim]

***Let's review and maybe wrap this one up***

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there any validity to this doctrine in the LR? It feels like a works based salvation, and did nothing but make me personally anxious / pursue God out of fear I’d be left in the outer darkness. I’ve since broken free of it, or at least refuse to believe it as it seems to contradict the gospel. It’s such a focal point in the LR and it’s the motivation of a lot of members Christian lives. Can we break this doctrine down? What if any validity does it have?
How can someone who’s been saved by Grace, still not be accepted by God? It doesn’t make sense.

Originally Posted by Trapped

From the little time I've spent looking into what the Bible says about overcomers/overcoming, this seems to be what we should hang our hat on. Overcomers are simply genuine believers, born of God. Any overcoming we do is because of what Jesus did. He's overcome the world, and we overcome the accuser because of the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 12:11).

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

I don’t know what to make anymore of the entire Overcomer theology, but I do know the fruit of it. I spent most of my life with a sense of dread hanging over me that I was probably not an Overcomer (despite trying to do all the things) and that the Lord was constantly disappointed in me for failing to reach this unknown and rather elitist Overcomer standard. As I detox, I’m coming to see that this robs many many saints of their joy and freedom in Christ and what He has already done for us out of His great love and grace.

Originally Posted by Zezima

It causes anxiety in a lot of saints. I’ve seen saints completely abandon the faith because they committed certain sins and thus according to the LR are disqualified for the banquet feast. I’ve seen saints who are in crippling fear that they won’t make it, and their entire Christian pursuit is motivated by being an overcomer.
For me personally, I felt that the only reason I pursued God was so that I could be an overcomer. Using God in order to attain something, how sad now.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

As I've shared on here a number of times, when I was in the Recovery, I heard that God had a purpose and would get it no matter what. And while there is truth to that, it was conveyed as God was like a steamroller, who would flatten you if you got in His way. Many instances of saints leaving the Recovery were conveyed, where God supposedly judged them for that. A sense of fear prevailed because of teachings like this, and also teachings that believers might be severely punished for a thousand years, if we weren't "overcomers" according to the standard way that was being taught.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Like any aberrant Bible teaching, there is always a certain amount of scripture to support it. Witness Lee made "overcomers" an elite class of believers, where the Bible does not. That set us up to be manipulated by him. Being a ministry "overcomer" was never related to actual struggles in trials, but absolute allegiance to his ministry. Being "one with the ministry" and "being absolute for WL's burden" goes back to my earliest days in the mid 70's.
So this "overcomer" teaching turned the most zealous of the bro/sis's into ardent man-pleasers, willing to do all things to please the MOTA. It sowed endless suspicions among the brothers about who is and who is not adequately "one with the ministry." Survival thus required a "good show" in front of others, and rivalries to suck up to Witness Lee.

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

One characteristic of the LR is exclusivity.
This morning a brother talked about the "overcomer."
He quoted from the Morning Revival "When the testimony of the church in the Lord's recovery is matured, the Lord Jesus will return."
I said there were overcomers in other churches, too. And he said it would be rare and hard for they were not in the Oneness; they were divisions.
I asked further if they were in the "Body." He hesitated. Then he said, "let God judge it."
I asked further how could you be so sure the LR was the "oneness?" or you would say, "let God judge it."
I could continue asking questions like this, but I wouldn't. I realize it's useless discussing or arguing with saints who are so into LR. Not until when they wake up from that hobbyhorse.

Originally Posted by Raptor

Because there are many judgements from God, for different kinds of people, at different times The 2 main judgements are :
1.) Judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11).
A person who has received Christ as their Savior will NOT have to face this judgement, the blood of Jesus has cleansed them from EVERY sin, they have eternal life, and will be in the New Jerusalem for eternity.
2.) Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).
A person who has received Christ as their Savior will have to face this judgement, to give an account of his life, living, works, unconfessed sins, etc. It will be determined whether they enter the joy and glory of the Lord in the millenial kingdom.
Believing in Christ, victorious over #1, does NOT automatically grant you to be victorious at #2.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Brothers and sisters, what is the fruit of the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee regarding the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of the heavens and the so-called "Overcomers"? Have these teachings produced a people who have the heart, attitude and mindset of our Lord Jesus Christ, or even those of the apostle Paul? What have these teachings produced in the current leadership in the Local Church movement - the "Blended Brothers", or "The Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America"? What is the heart, attitude and mindset displayed by these men over the past number of years in dealing with many dear saints who have expressed legitimate concerns and heartfelt consternation regarding a myriad issues - issues that deserve to be addressed properly, publicly and immediately. The saints in the Local Churches are waiting. Families are waiting. The Christian public is waiting. The Lord is waiting.