[Trapped]

Welcome to the forum, Unregistered!

I hope you'll stick around and dialogue, but as Nell said, it's very common for people to drive-by, post an opinion, and then disappear. But we'll reply in the hopes that you're at least going to read the responses, even if you don't say anything.

First of all, I hope you can see the difference between what happens here and what happens on local church/LSM websites. You posted your own "negative" and "opinion-filled" post about this site, putting it down, and denigrating the people and the behavior.

And this site still allowed you to post it. The owners of this forum were under zero obligation to approve your post for publication. But your post was let through so there could be open, honest, discussion in the light, even though your post was "negative" against the very site you posted it on.

That's one sign of a healthy place.

The local church, however, drowns out anyone voicing a concern, or anyone voicing an opinion that isn't in line with Witness Lee's opinion. I know there are exceptions to this that prove the rule, but I'm thinking of things like what the co-workers and LSM did on sites like livingtohim.com, where fellowship about Jo Casteel's FB letter was posted, and any comments posted that expressed an opinion contrary to the falsehoods that LSM spread were deleted. Over and over and over again. Meetings were had where church kid after church kid were recruited to stand up and proclaim how wonderful the local church was......just because one person, Jo Casteel, stood up and posted about the serious issues that are also present.

All of that kind of behavior on the part of the local church/co-workers/LSM is a big sign of an unhealthy place.

So I hope first of all you can appreciate that this is one of the only places where frank and honest discussion about the local church can occur.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

After reading some posts on this site, it looks like a bunch of hateful comments by some Christians who did not like meeting with local church.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you didn't read enough posts if that's the impression you came away with. I myself would probably never describe my feeling as "I didn't like meeting with the local church". That's not what any of us here are saying at all.

We are saying the local church is deceptive. It's a fabrication based on a lie. It uses the name of God and the name of Jesus to hook naive people, and then uses intentional manipulation techniques to influence and mentally trap those people, and then switch the gospel of Jesus Christ out for the gospel of Witness Lee. But the words "Christ" are all over "the ministry" and so people are kept in deception for a long, long time.

We are saying that the subtly condemnatory nature of the ministry, interwoven throughout every book, keep people oppressed, depressed, miserable, trapped, and withering inside as human beings. This is what comes out if you actually talk to members in the group honestly for long enough. The ministry oppresses the very people that Jesus died for to set free.

I can think of scores of teachings of Witness Lee that are explicitly contrary to the Bible. And all this stuff is bad. Damaging. Harmful. Threats to life in some cases. There is a reason why Jesus say "woe" to the Pharisees over and over. Those Pharisees were doing the same things that go on in the local church.

The problem is, nothing can change in the local church. As is typical of cults, if you speak up about the problems, you get attacked as "hateful" or being "negative". You know this, because it's exactly what you just did in your post to us!

But none of us are affected by what you wrote, because we fully expect it, because what you wrote is the classic response of people who are in a cult.

Your post literally served to prove the point, whether you are aware of it or not.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hey, not everybody is going to like meeting at every meeting place, but too much hatred and talk about negative opinions here. Not enough helpful chat on Bible verses and fellowship...this site is a waste of time.

There's TONS of threads on Bible verses! There's TONS of threads on people asking for fellowship and receiving it!

As Nell posted, the Bible says we are to expose works of darkness. Exposing works of darkness is going to "sound negative" because works of darkness are themselves negative.

Cancer is negative. Abuse is negative. A cheating spouse is negative. A car accident is negative. We can talk about negative things, and as humans, to cope with experiencing them we HAVE TO talk about negative things. It's not always going to sound pretty and uplifting, but.....life isn't always pretty and uplifting.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The Lord will judge Witness Lee, every believer who meets with a local church, and every beliver who posts hate on this site....

Absolutely right. But again, what you wrote is typical of people who are in cults or cult-like groups. There's two implications here to what you wrote:

1. "The Lord will judge" - meaning "let it go, leave it up to Him, stop talking about it", and
2. A veiled threat to us that God will judge us.

Of course both of those are true. But it's not the whole truth.

The Lord will judge, of course. But the church is also supposed to judge. "The Lord will judge" never means "let whatever happens happen and don't do anything about it". That's not a very salt-like Christian. We are supposed to judge the righteous judgment. Paul tells the believers they will judge angels and so they'd better be able to judge things now! If the church is supposed to treat an unrepentant believer as a tax collector, the church better be able to make a judgment about the situation to do so.

"The Lord will judge" is a gross and incomplete misrepresentation of the real picture. It in no way means that there isn't any action or justice now.

Vengeance? No. But action? Of course! No one is safe if we just "let the Lord" judge everything at the end and don't take any action now about things.

Yes, God will judge everything written here too. But the implicit undertone of your statement is that this site is going to come down on the wrong side of judgment. If we are doing what the Bible tells us to do - expose works of darkness, judging rightly, freeing people from entangling and entrapping false doctrines - and doing so in as much love as we possibly can and apologizing when we offend or overstep, I don't lose much sleep over these discussions in that regard.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Deal with it.

That's what this site is doing.

With all sincerity, please come back and dialogue, unregistered. I am serious when I say that the more I talked with members in the local church, every time, eventually, the truth would come out that they were actually miserable in it. Think about the meetings you have been in where the speaking of Ron Kangas or Mark Raabe about "death" left you feeling dead and condemned. Think about the fact that you don't feel like an "overcomer" after years or decades in the church. Think about cracking open yet another ministry book and reading the same old same old every time....and that you already know all of it because you've heard the same stale thing for years. Think about the fact that Witness Lee did things like teach "get out of your mind" and "we must close our mind" when the Bible never says anything even remotely close to something like that.

I was just reading in Luke 24 the other day. After Jesus resurrected, He was appearing to His disciples and they were startled before they realized who He was. Verse 45 says Jesus then did this:

Luke 24:45
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Jesus opened their minds so the disciples could understand the Scriptures. Not "got them out of their minds and into their spirit". But opened their minds!

Witness Lee taught that we should, literally, "reject our minds", "close our minds", and "get out of our minds". This is a screamingly unhealthy teaching for any human being, and particularly for a Christian. We should never reject any of our God-given faculties!

Never mind the fact that the Bible also teaches we should love God with our minds, we should set our minds on the spirit, we should be of a sober mind, and we should sing and pray with our minds. All of these are using our minds, and none of these are "getting out of our minds". I mean, one of the very common teachings in the local church is demonstrably contrary to the Bible!

And there are lots of anti-biblical teachings like that in the local church, wrapped up in biblical-sounding language, unregistered. Our heart is sincere in discussing these things. Please continue the discussion with us.

Trapped