Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim
.. at the close of the age of the New Testament, the apostle John, known as "the apostle of love", greatly emphasized "truth". To see that the saints were walking in truth gave him the greatest joy. "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth."(2 John 4:4)
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I concede to the primacy of truth, in the sense of "widely understood and agreed-upon events, facts, or phenomenon". But even in Jesus' day, the Twelve didn't have a good handle on it. The gospels repeat this theme, with, "They were amazed and afraid, and wondered what was going on." The NT isn't always explicitly detailed - it says that Jesus taught in parables, then explained privately. We don't know the contents of many long conversations that Paul had with Timothy (for example), but only two epistles and some verses in Acts. We may read deeply into the texts, and arguably should (and I do), but to argue over our readings as "truths" is itself the grip of error.
And to do this with ones like DCP who want to argue (imo) plays right to their hands and stumbles the weak and the wavering. If an unbeliever comes by, and sees us hotly debating the "trinity" versus the "quadnity" - I just made that last word up - will they go, "Oh wow, God really loves me!"? I doubt it. They'll be like, "Okay.. eh.. not for me" and keep going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
Because the believers are incorporated into Him, He as the heavenly ladder serves as the personal bridge to the Triune God, incorporating in Himself the Divine Trinity and the believers. ~Kerry Robichaux
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Back to
Ohio's point about sticking to what's in the scriptural text. John 1:51 is probably the key verse here, that Robichaux uses to jump-start his four-in-one theory. He uses the word 'incorporated' and then the ladder motif is used to extend this incorporation into the believers. But what does Jesus actually say? He says, "You will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man." This of course references the famous OT vision of "Jacob's ladder".
But what do we really see in these words: incorporation? First, Jesus says "an open heaven". I argue that this implies obedience. "Because I obey my Father, I always see what he is doing" and conversely "Because I always see (know/understand) my Father's will in scripture, I can always obey him." Seeing necessitates obedience, and obedience follows seeing (Pharisees were called blind because they didn't obey scriptures, and they didn't obey because they couldn't see).
The scriptures foretold the coming Messiah, and Jesus as this Messiah (aka Christ, Son of David, King of Israel, Saviour of the World, Ruler of the kings of the earth) lived completely and unequivocally within prophetic strictures. If a prophet wrote it, Jesus lived it, period. He never lived outside the Father's will for him, outlined in what we today call the OT. How many times did Jesus say, "that the scripture must be fulfilled" or "as it is written" (why I cited James' idea of the "perfect law of freedom"; see also Psa 119:32). That's the Son of Man on earth, living and walking and acting under the open heaven. We see him, and recognize this, and see in him our own pathway to freedom. When he obeyed, we then believed the scriptures' fulfillments, and were ourselves set free from sin, death, self, hell. Jesus is the Way.
Now, as to "angels ascending and descending" upon the Son of Man, it seems simple - Jesus and the writers of the NT believed in angelic mediation, that angels carried prayers and messages to and from God (see, e.g., Rev 8:2-6; cf Matt 4:11; Acts 12:15; John 5:4) None of this obviates the "One Spirit" or the unique "Holy Spirit" but John 1:51 isn't bringing us to the Trinity or the Quadnity. It's rather presenting us with a view of a unique Man on earth who was fully obedient to the Father in heaven. Through our faith we're "incorporated" into Jesus, but that incorporation is wholly predicated on our obedience to his will, just as his to the Father. "Even as I obey the Father's commandments, so also you should obey my commands". Pretty straightforward: when Jesus teaches, "Even as 'X', so also 'Y'", don't you think we disciples should pay attention?
I don't deny, reject, or ignore the doctrine of the Trinity as an established historical Christian doctrinal exposition. But we should never allow ourselves to be carried away from the actual text at hand. Where the Bible is explicit, we say, "Amen". Which is why I continually cite the resurrection of Jesus on the third day: every NT witness includes this. Where we're reading into gaps, or pasting together disparate sections, caution and humility are our best guides.