3 parts of man
 

I have a question, would love your input, saints...

When I received the 3 parts of man teaching as a young believer in the LC, I remember distinctly being taught that when we receive Christ, He initially enters into our human spirit. Remember the 3 circles? Whether or not His abiding goes 'further' into the rest of our being, that is, into our soul, then ultimately our physical body, that is a matter of whether or not we give Him permission to go there, be there. Does this have any scriptural basis?? Am I missing it? Does anyone else remember receiving this teaching?

I know there is a matter of being a babe in Christ, contrast that with those mature in Christ....

To take this further, I wonder now about the validity of this 3 separate parts of man doctrine....I think someone mentioned it in another thread, is what brought this question up for me....

byHismercy

Re: 3 parts of man
 

The Bible does say we have a spirit, soul, and body, but are these three distinct and separate parts of the whole person? The Bible also mentions our heart, our inner man, our conscience, our character, our hidden man, our natural man, etc. Lee endeavored to organize these into a flow chart, while constantly trying to convince us that all of Christianity was fallen.

Some in the LC have gone crazy trying to figure it all out. One testimony in the LC said it all. The husband said he could not help his sick wife do the dishes because he didn't want to "do it out of his natural man." Seriously? Sounds like he had all the knowledge, yet not love. Sounds like I Cor 13.2. Paul says then that he is "nothing."

Thus is life in the LC -- struggling to have all knowledge, yet not enough love to wash the dishes.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Some good verses on the three main parts of man:

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved, entirely blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:23

"For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even as far as the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrows, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Heb 4:12

"But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." 1 Cor 6:17

""That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6

"But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding." Job 32:8

"Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him" Zech 12:1

"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." 2 Tim 4:22

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Sons of Glory gave all the verses proving we have a spirit and it is separate from our soul. Someone I heard put it this way: we are a spirit. We have a soul. We live in a body....Food for thought.

The difficult part is living and walking in the spirit.

Galatians 5:16 says
Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25 says:
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I think the more we abide in Christ, in His Spirit by worshipping and praying, seeking HIS PERFECT WILL in our lives, studying His Word through the Spirit not through man's interpretation, God will help us to walk and live in the Spirit. This includes being filled and walking in the Love of Jesus..something the LC/LSM lost a long, long time ago.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Amen! And our minds need renewing to better realize what Christ has done for us and who we are in Him!

Re: 3 parts of man
 

I have heard this before, but I'm not so sure.

I think we are a soul, a living soul breathed into existence at conception by God. (Gen 2.7) We also have a soul, which is our person, so the Bible refers to us as souls. (Gen 46.27) Both the saved and the unsaved have a soul which will live forever. Whether or not their spirit within is born of His Spirit, decides their destiny, whether one perishes or possesses eternal life. (Jn 3.16) Living forever does not mean we have eternal life, rather that is determined by faith in God's promised Redeemer. Our body, of course, is temporary, made of dust, a tent (II Cor 5.1-4) which covers our naked soul, one day to be replaced by a spiritual body.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Good points! The Bible's does have some emphasis, in that respect, more on the mention of the soul it seems. And probably because of this, many throughout time haven't seen or focused as much on the spirit of man. Some de-emphasize the spirit and sometimes it's even said that the soul and spirit are the same (they're not). In recent years I've heard more about our spirit from various preachers, but many are still not clear that this is the part the Lord joins Himself to at regeneration. (e.g., 1 Cor 6:17)

The matter of life in spirit ("It is the spirit that gives life") may be the better way to look at it - life in our spirit animates our soul to express Him and do His works.

Perhaps it's like air in a balloon - when I haven't been in the word and turning to Him much, I just feel basically flat.

BTW - I've heard others say that "We are a spirit in an earth-suit.' Not so sure this is accurate either . . .

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Im sure it’s not accurate StG... consider this source:

“This is perhaps the most fascinating part of the Heaven’s Gate scenario. As previously mentioned, humans are composed of two separate parts: 1) the body, which is nothing more than a container; and 2) a spirit, which functions as “the informational mind or ‘software’ [in computer talk] of a human plant.” “

..... and I’m sure it wouldn’t even make it to Alternative Views!

Drake

Re: 3 parts of man
 

I'm not so sure about that either. I've known some who espoused this, and they had trouble with relationships. That's why I question it's value.

Marriages, in particular, suffer greatly when one party wants to be "a spirit." Ever hear the saying, "heavenly minded, but no earthly good."

John Piper had a few pointed comments about such ones:

It is possible to be so heavenly minded that we are of no earthly use. My problem is: I’ve never met one of those people. And I suspect, if I met one, the problem would not be that his mind is full of the glories of heaven, but that his mind is empty and his mouth is full of platitudes.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

The instance I know of where this actually happened, the brother was an elder. His wife eventually divorced him. Who knows how many times such stupidity occurred.

Nell

Re: 3 parts of man
 

This idea that we are spirit, soul, and body, can be twisted in so many ways.

Spirit, soul, and body are not 3 separated compartments. We are all 3 combined together.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

But...but...with the body, soul and spirit, our soul is divided into the mind, emotion and will. Right? But...I need help with the dishes. :yep: So you're in your mind to figure out if we are in our soul or spirit, unless you get emotional about being in your body and you have to exercise your will to decide to call on the Lord to get back into your spirit to bring your body into subjection so you can help with the dishes...:xx: or is it your emotion that needs to be brought into subjection? Oh! And the spirit!!! Three parts, right? Intuition, conscience and fellowship! Shouldn't your conscience make you help your sick wife with the dishes?

And the body! So how many parts does the body have? And how do you know where you are...in your body?
Your toe bone connected to your foot bone
Your foot bone connected to your ankle bone
Your ankle bone connected to your leg bone
Your leg bone connected to your knee bone
Your knee bone connected to your thigh bone
Your thigh bone connected to your hip bone
Your hip bone connected to your back bone
Your back bone connected to your shoulder bone
Your shoulder bone connected to your neck bone
Your neck bone connected to your head bone

I think my leg bone is connected to my shoulder bone. :stunned:

I'm so confused.:confused: Who's going to do the dishes?
Nell

Re: 3 parts of man
 

What a shame! Talk about a stupid teaching!

I'm sure that elder was hand-picked for his unwavering loyalty to Lee rather than for any of the basic qualifications in the scripture.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Here is the apostle's reaction to such nonsense taught by Lee:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ."

Re: 3 parts of man
 

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Quote/question of the day!!!:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

As I was reading the last few posts, it became more apparent why there is a need to divide the soul from our spirit! It's such an intricate endeavor that only the Word of God can do this!

Hallelujah for the Living Word in our lives!

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Love is the key ingredient. Love means sacrifice, and sacrifice puts our soul life on the cross, thus dividing soul from spirit.

Yes, the Word of God is living and operative. Definitely, but this is the word living and operating in our hearts, and not just some words on the page of a book.

In the LC we were compelled to study more, learn more, be trained more, and do more, yet rarely to love more. Hence, in many instances, there was little dividing of soul and spirit.

In the Midwest LC's when I left, there was only the dividing of brother against brother because LSM was not governed by anything living or operative, rather the dead and divisive doctrines of a minister long dead.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

This all reminded me of an incident many years ago. Several young brothers were in the kitchen after eating. We were discussing cleaning up. One brother was asked about helping. He responded with a smile on his face: "I have the peace not to." Even back then, we realized that was absurd.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Oops! I originally intended to reference Nell's post #12, the last sentence: Who's going to do the dishes?"

Re: 3 parts of man
 

I would agree. And it was only when God started showing me how much it was about love, that scripture and His purpose began to open more to me! I had many years of being fed "God Eternal has a Purpose," which in itself was good (but in the context of "If you don't line-up straight, He might have to squash you to get it!"). However, love is the key as to the why and how (and even when I think) He will get us there.

Does that make sense?

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Revelation 1:10 - Recovery Version LSM
I was in spirit on the Lord's Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

Footnote on Revelation 1:10
It should be noted that the Recovery Version is one of the only (if not only) English translation that uses spirit (small s). All other reputable versions use Spirit (Capitol S). I am quite certain that this mistranslation came at the direction of Witness Lee. Lee often boasted that he was a major influence on the "translation team" for the Recovery Version. (a huge problem in that Lee had no formal education in any of the biblical languages) For the most part, the Recovery Version NT is a solid translation, following translation methods and norms of many modern, widely accepted and reputable translations. There are, however, a few glaring exceptions, and this mistranslation of Revelation 1:10, and the explanation in the footnote, is actually a significant mistranslation/misinterpretation.

There is a very good reason that most bible teachers, scholars and writers do not but such a heavy emphasis on the difference between the human spirit and the human soul – The Bible simply does not make such a heavy emphasis. I am not suggesting that there is no difference, much less claiming that the Bible says there is no difference, only that the difference(s) are over emphasized by Witness Lee and his followers. And, in my observation and experience, this over emphasis comes at a cost to anyone who fully imbibes such an unbalanced view of our inward/spiritual constitution as human beings.

I will quote Lee’s footnote again (with my emphasis), and then briefly explain why I think his teaching regarding the relationship between the Holy Spirit and our human spirit is at the very least inaccurate and unhelpful.
..but also our human spirit as the organ for us to realize and respond to God's move. Only spirit (our spirit) can respond to Spirit (God's Spirit)

To make a blanket statement that “our human spirit as the (only) organ for us to realize and respond to God’s move” is simply not accurate. The New Testament is filled with references to our heart and mind responding to, being influenced by and changed by the Holy Spirit. A couple of verses that come to mind are Ephesians 1:18 “having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you” and Romans 2:2 “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” Now maybe there is an argument to be made that the enlightening, transforming and renewing are being initiated in the spirit, but to say that “Only spirit (our spirit) can respond to Spirit (God's Spirit) is again, simply not an accurate or complete understanding of how God himself interacts with, influences and transforms our being through the Holy Spirit.

Of course I have not touched upon the way that Local Churchers are manipulated and even controlled by this teaching. “Get out of your mind, get your spirit in gear!”. Remember that one? How about “I don’t feel right in my spirit about this”. Then there was “we need to exercise our spirit!” At some point one starts to consider the human spirit as a part of our being that is completely detached from our heart and mind, and even our conscience. (I do understand that Nee/Lee teach that the conscience is part of the human spirit, but this is not supported by scripture) This consideration can lead to a wrong understanding about proper relationships between our brothers and sisters in Christ, and even with other common human relationships.
-

Re: 3 parts of man
 

I don't have an issue with the use of a small "s" for spirit in Rev 1:10, as there is no real reason to say it's The Spirit of God here, is there? I mean we could have differing opinions on this and I don't think either way is necessarily wrong. Of course, there are places where it should be big "S", but I don't know that this is one of them.

Now some phrases I do have a little issue with (e.g., many that you've pointed out). For instance, here in Scottsdale I occasionally hear something like, "I turned to my spirit." OK, fine, but I haven't found that particular phrase in the Bible. What we do find in scripture over and over is some iteration of, "Turn to the Lord." And of course I know some would say that turning to your spirit is the same as turning to the Lord, but why does scripture say one but not the other?

I do consider this to be something of a minor thing in my ekklesia, and I certainly wouldn't point it out to someone who said, "I just needed to turn to my spirit" (which saying really is a rarity here). After all, like our dear brother James points out, "Mercy triumphs over judgment!"

Re: 3 parts of man
 

This is all really helpful. Truly, the longer I am out of the Lee doctrines, the more I see I want to be purged of really questionable doctrine. Jesus is Lord, brothers and sisters! Even if I've been leavened, I trust Him to purge me of it and straighten me out. I think the thing I am starting to see is that I disagree with the LC concept about needing to give the Lord permission to expand into all our parts.....spirit, then soul, then body....I just don't know about that. When I received the Lord, I gave that permission. I never told Him, You can come into my spirit, but make sure You stay there, don't invade my soul or my body!

Every time I pray, read the precious word, or even think on Him, I am welcoming Him in, making my feeble human attempt to join Him. The word He reminds me of over and over is 'the mind set on the spirit is life and peace'. Juxtaposed with 'the mind set on the flesh is death'.

He has set me up for faith for my entire life, I believe. Praise Him. I remember the time I left my body momentarily. I was very young, maybe 10? My soul floated up and out, I left my room, floated down to the landing on the stairwell and saw my mother watering her plants through the banister. It was the briefest experience, maybe less than a minute. I went back into my body, which was raging with fever. So, from that time, before it ever even occurred to me to wonder if I was soul, or spirit, or knew what the bible has to say on the subject, I knew I was not just my physical body. And later, as a young adult, before I received Jesus, I was convinced of the fact of my eternal soul....my non-perishable life, if you will......He set me up to see the truth of His word this way. So when I started searching for truth, I was coming from at least this much knowledge.

Stg, I didn't realize 'turn to your spirit' wasn't scriptural. I agree, turn to the Lord! I don't want to turn to my spirit! I want to turn to Him alone.

And there is such confusion issuing from this teaching! UntoHim, thank you for all the scripture references. Thank you, everybody. I need to be washed in the water of the laver of the word!!

Re: 3 parts of man
 

StG,

Some places are obviously big S Spirit and some places obviously little s spirit.

“That which is born of Spirit is spirit” John 3:6 is a good example. Other derivatives wouldn’t make sense.

But referring to a born again regenerated believer there are verses where it is hard to distinguish between the Spirit and the spirit for a very good reason —- “He who is joined to the Lord is one Sspirit.” 1 Cor 6:17 This verse clearly shows a mingled Sspirit that occurred when the believer was joined to the Lord at regeneration when we first believed.....and this verse also states clearly the joining occurred in our spirit. Other places related to soul describe a renewing of the mind something more gradual.... transformation through a continual washing. That sort of distinction.

Drake

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Great post Drake. Please allow me to interlope.

I'm pretty sure y'all know that it is 'we' that decide the big and little 's' in spirit. The Koine Greek has no such distinction. Back when written it was up to the reader to do that in his or her mind (mostly 'his' as few if any women were literate).

So yes bro Drake, sometimes, in our imaginations, it's obvious when big 's' spirit is the Holy Spirit, and obvious when little 's' is meant. I guess we should be grateful for the translator(s) helping us to distinguish which is which.

And for your assistance and great examples. I like the use of Sspirit. That's deep. And apropos ... at least in some cases. If they were trying to be helpful in understanding the Greek, the translators should have used it.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

True story:

In my locality, there was a single man who had a young daughter. I don't know what his story was, if he was divorced, or a widower, or ever married. His daughter was young, probably 5 or 6. He met with the local church for a couple of years.

I suspect he was a recovering alcoholic. He would always smell the communion glass to see if it was wine. We usually used grape juice.

I remember that his little girl had a stuffed animal she always carried around. It was cute to watch, but the doll was dirty and falling apart. On one hand that's fine - sometimes kids need a favorite doll or toy for their own security. But it still seemed a little sad. And the father clearly was not well off, so he might not have been able to afford something better.
I remember thinking, "Maybe I should buy a new stuffed animal for this girl. I could talk to the father about it. See if he thinks it's appropriate, hopefully without making him feel awkward or needy. He could surprise her with it as a gift." It seemed like just a good thing to do.

And here's where my local church indoctrination kicked in. Would this be out of my soul, or out of my spirit? Was this genuinely spiritual? Or was it natural or religious goodness (which should be rejected)? How could I know if this was "Christ" or not?

To make a long story short, I became so complicated that I didn't do anything. I was paralyzed with indecision. I never bought this girl a new doll, or even talked to the father about whether that would be okay. Looking back, I'm sure he would have at least appreciated that someone cared enough to ask.

And this sort of thing happened all the time. This is what makes me think that the "three parts of man" as interpreted by Witness Lee is a false teaching. Yes, we are spirit, soul, and body. But if you're always trying to figure out whether you are "in your soul" or "in your spirit," you won't be able to have any confidence in your decisions. You'll always be afraid that God rejects your desires to do something good or kind for someone else. One of the worst negative effects of the local church on my life, even after I left, was the constant fear of doing something natural or soulish. That kind of morbid introspection is paralyzing. There is no Biblical basis for it. The Christian gospel is a message of freedom from that type of religious bondage.

Most Christians wouldn't think twice about buying a child a new doll as a gift, or asking a low-income, single father if there was some way to help him care for his child. But in the local church, even a God-given natural instinct was to be despised. Looking back, I think my desire to buy the girl a new stuffed animal was actually from the Spirit. And I quenched the Spirit because I was so complicated and analytical from all the indoctrination I received.

Anyway, I still feel sad about never buying that girl a new stuffed toy. I wish that I had at least gotten to know the father and learned more about him and his daughter. (But that would have been a "natural relationship," and I was afraid of that.) It took me years to learn that doing spontaneous acts of kindness for people was not "soulish", but a testimony of the Lord's salvation.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Unreg,
I cannot express how much I appreciate your insight and everyones' contribution here. This religious bondage was exactly my experience there in the LCs. I was paralyzed with it. I couldn't understand how I could be expected to 'prophesy' as I understand the definition of the word. How I could presume to speak for the Lord, especially when I contrasted this LC expectation to Gods' word about women teaching in the meetings. I could not just throw out the precident set forth in scripture.....and I could not reconcile the practice with His word. But I always believed 'everyone has' did not restrict me to sharing my portion or my gift of faith before the whole assembly....and the Lee system did not match my understanding of what the Lord brings to the body...through my faith. I couldn't practice like them, but anything else will not be tolerated. I wish I could express more eloquently, or at least clearly.....when the Lord did give me an impulse that I then shared, it was shot down before it really got off the ground. I remember sharing with the sister who shunned us, how we could share the gospel with someone, just find one person, whenever we got together for any purpose...the Lord gave me this! And she basically said No, I don't think so. In the last year she refused to pray with me....and I naively believed it was related to her personal challenges she faced. Of course, now I understand her detachment was issuing from her total agreement and acceptance with the culture, the mindset, of the Lee ministry. It was not that I actually needed to be chastised or set apart from the body. It was just this portion of His body is being led away from the simplicity of our faith in Jesus alone. I wish I could share what I know now with her. It is totally unnecessary for us to be separated. For her to be separated from my children who love her like family. Makes me almost cry. Except I can't because I am too mad. That stinkin 'O I'm a Man' hymn tune keeps trotting through my head, today. Lord, wash me! I need my brain to be divinely erased and rebooted!
byHismercy

Re: 3 parts of man
 

I know what you mean about that dumb song! :xx:

Regarding worrying about the whole "Am I doing this from my soul or spirit?" thing - I'm with brothers now who basically practice this idea: Pray about something and simply give it to the Lord, and then just do what you are inclined to do. If it was of the Lord, you'll know it. If not, you'll know that too . . . and just go on. Either way you'll learn Christ (that is, what is and what isn't Him)! Pretty simple I think.

Rejoice not over me, O my enemy;
when I fall, I shall rise;
when I sit in darkness,
the Lord will be a light to me.

Micah 7:8

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Amen. This is good. Keep it before Him in prayer. Keep it simple. And remember, He prepared good works beforehand, for us to walk in. If I had to guess, I'd say every 'good' impulse we have originates in Jesus.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Oh, and, this is where He led me after my earlier post...

Acts 2 v17...and it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy,(speak forth the word of God).

I agree with the Lord. But I do not believe speaking old Lee teachings is the same as speaking forth the word of God. That is leaving His narrow path, in my opinion.
byHismercy

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Unregistered 123,

I just want to echo byHismercy's post - thank you for telling that story. As I read it all I could think is that I wish the part you said that I bolded above could be painted as the banners for the next LSM live training and plastered all around the walls at every meeting.

Just those 8 sentences alone would be more helpful, more freeing, and foster more care among the members than pretty much anything else that the blended co-workers could come up with in all 12 meetings.

Wow. Thank you!

Trapped

Re: 3 parts of man
 

123 thanks for your story.

Our goal is to know the Shepherd's voice, not to know whether His voice originates in our soul or in our spirit or in our heart or in our mind.

The New Covenant (Hebrews 8) says, "all shall know Me, from the little to the great."

Many of the exclusive LC teachings like this one were never designed to help our walk with the Lord, rather they were designed over time to bring us under subjection, just as the Judaizers of old did to the Galatian believers.

Re: 3 parts of man
 

I have found that the only way to get a dumb song out of your mind is to introduce another.:)

Re: 3 parts of man
 

Yes. And I have marveled how the Spirit will just bring up in me songs. If I give it to Him and ask for a new song, He is faithful!