Re: Politics and the Church
 

Where does the Bible say it's an historical record?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The Bible starts out, "In the beginning, God created ..."

Sorry, zeek, but for you to ask such an absurd question causes me to question not just your faith, but your intelligence.

Hey zeek, just what do you really believe? Anything at all? Do you even question that the Gospels are historical records?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

How do you get that the Bible is an historical record from the words "In the beginning God created"? I think the gospels have a historical basis which is mixed with myth and legend.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The Bible is an historical record of events starting with "God created."

To claim that the Gospels or Genesis is "mixed with myth and legend" indicates that it is not the word of God to you and can be anything you want it to be.

That explains many of your posts -- actually a mixture of myths and legends -- cunningly devised fables dreamed up by zeek and his preferred list of "scientists."

Herein is the difference between us -- you think the Bible is mixed with myth and legend, while I think your posts and everything else written is mixed with myth and legend.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The Bible never explicitly states that it is an historical record. That it is is a matter of Christian tradition.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

May I put in my 2 cents worth of myth and legend?

That's the history of the universe, not the Bible.

That brings back zeek's original question : "Where in the Bible does it say it's a historical record?" If the word of God doesn't say it means that it's not historical. So to say it's a historical record is extra-Biblical tradition.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

That's *conveniently* an absurd standard to place on the Bible.

Genesis 2.4, for example, says, "These are the generations of the heaven and the earth when they were created."

Obviously an "historical" record, but you guys apparently read about this so-called "disclaimer" by some university moron ... err scholar like Ehrman ... and believed this nonsense.

Luke himself precedes two books with statements like, "draw up a narrative concerning these matters," but it's not "history" because he didn't use the right words. Seriously?

So when the Bible repeatedly instructs us that "these things were recorded," it is not actually an "historical record" because it did not use the words "historical record." :rollingeyesfrown:

Are you guys really doubling down on dumb? You guys are better than this! Have you actually gone off the deep end with this PC talk? The LC was also this way -- i.e. you can't be a "real" church unless you call yourself "THE church IN anytown."

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Is it the word of God or not? The word of God does not say the Bible is history. Sorry. Don't blame me. Blame the Bible for not saying it.

Again, not speaking of the Bible. Look up the Hebrew word for heaven in that verse and you'll find it's speaking of the sky and celestial space, up there.

Not true at all.

Where's the history of Jerusalem and the temple getting sacked by the Romans? Why not that history? Not much of a history book without that.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

So the Chronicles of Israel's history and the book of Kings are not History books? The account in Genesis about the patriarchs that is not biographical? Judges doesn't tell us the history of the judges? Joshua doesn't tell us the history of Joshua? Esther, Nehemiah, Ezra, etc. These kinds of pronouncements from you always make me think and ask, why am I listening to this fool?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I'm not saying there's no history in the Bible. But it's no more a history book than it is a math or science book.

History in the Bible is a specific history. All the books of the Bible are written by Jews (with the possible exception being Mark. But even that is contested cuz we don't know who wrote it).

So if anything the Bible is a history of the Jews. And there is no history after the gentiles took over. So the Bible is a history of a time frame ; say from 1500BCE to 100CE.

And there's tons of history it never mentions. Where's the Greek history, or Roman? Oh,I forgot. It's a Jewish history.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I think the Bible makes it very clear that it is a history that begins specifically with Adam and takes us even to a view of the future in Revelation.

The gospels are clearly biographical. The book of Acts is very clearly informative about the beginning of the church.

The epistles are also very informative giving us the detailed account of what the apostles taught, primarily Paul, John, Peter and James.

As for the history of the creation it is certainly a very, very brief account. But that doesn't mean that what it does say is not accurate.

No one judges a book by what it doesn't include. The fact that you have questions about Roman history that are not answered in the Bible does not in any way support the claim that the Bible is not history.

History is a story told over time. It is a way of recreating the past so it can be studied in the present and re-interpreted for future generations. based on this definition the Bible is clearly history.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Anything that records the past is a historical record. In other words, the Bible has memory. The bible was not a historical record for those who recorded events at the time they happened. But for us today it records the past and is a historical record.

Take a shopping list for example. Today's shopping list is not a historical record. But put that list in a safe place for 10 years, then it becomes a historical record of what you bought 10 years ago. The list can also be used to infer what you ate at the time, it is likely that you made recipes with the list of ingredients.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

By your logic, every single book on American history IS NOT HISTORY because Slovenian or Estonian history is NOT included. Huh???

And, btw, the writer of the book of Mark is ... Mark!!!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Books on American history are not history because they don't include the fact that America was first discovered by the Chinese and will be coming back in future to reclaim their land! That's how awareness'es faulty loigic argument is like the Chinese history arguments.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

But was it actual history?

Genesis was written and edited over a span of hundreds of years, beginning circa 1000BCE. None of the authors or editors were there for the creation, obviously. They were not recording events as they happened. The same could be said of Noah. None of the scribes were there. The stories come down from the oral tradition. And we all know what happens to oral traditions by playing the Telephone Game. The oral tradition was picked up and polished and improved upon over generations.

So to say, "The bible was not a historical record for those who recorded events at the time they happened," is to be mistakenly looking at it like there were reporters on hand, recording it as it happened. And that's not rational, nor realistic.

And what about any historical record of the great thinkers, like Socrates and Plato, et al? Oh darn. It keeps skipping my mind. The Bible is Jewish history, mixed with legend.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

If you are right does it change anything?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Can you give me the post # from which you allegedly quoted "the Bible has memory" quote from me? I do not recognize this.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Some of the names of the Bible historians are referenced here:

2Samuel 8:16
2Samuel 20:24
1Kings 4:3
2Kings 18:37
1chron 18:15
2Chron 34:8
Isaiah 8:2
Isaiah 36:3
Isaiah 36:22


References to other historical records are here:

1Chron 4:22
Ezra 4:15
Ezra 6:2
Esther 6:1

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The creation accounts in Genesis are without a doubt ancient Israel's stories of the world's beginnings. Are they scientifically accurate accounts of the origin of the cosmos, the earth or natural history? The overwhelming evidence of modern science says no. And the efforts of the young earth creationists and the gap theorists like Pember to reconcile Genesis with the body of scientific evidence are total failures. I don't see how you as an intelligent person cannot recognize this on some level.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Like I said, Jewish history, written by Jews, who claim to be God's chosen race.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I agree that the interpretations that I have read concerning creationists and others are a total failure. They are really wrong.

But the error I feel is in the interpretation of the Bible. Not the Bible.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

After 2 years of Fake News reporting by the Left, here is the preview for the big announcement:

Mueller report PSA: Prepare for disappointment

I have been telling you guys this for like ever, and you keep scolding me that Muller needs more time. When will you guys accept the fact that the Mainstream Media constantly lies to tha American public?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Don't know the you guys that you're addressing, but I realized that during the fake news, by all but one, including Fox, and those on the left, supporting going into war with Iraq.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Fitting that you would attack the media after your idol Trump praised a congressman for body-slamming a journalist who was just doing his job and your Idol and his administration are assisting in the cover-up of his Saudi Arabian prince buddy's apparent hit job on a journalist. Coincidentally the journalist works for the Washington Post who you and Trump and Saudi Arabia hate. So score another win for the Team Trump in the war on against the First Amendment freedom. Hooray for your side.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Never an honest moment zeek?

Still grasping at idols to divert attention away from your savior Muller.

Better go back and erase a hundred posts of yours claiming Muller will get Trump, your sworn enemy.

And now you are blaming Trump for the murder of a Saudi in Turkey? I think you should see a shrink. Trump Derangement Hatred has made you crazy.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

War in Iraq?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Saudi Arabia says journalist Jamal Khashoggi is Dead; 18 Are Arrested
Mr. Khashoggi was strangled after a fistfight, officials said

Trump said that Saudi Arabia’s statements were credible. He added he would consider “some form of sanction” but would prefer it didn’t involve arm sales. So far it looks like Trump is going along with the cover-up.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

You never seemed to care this much when Christians were slaughtered in the Mideast or Pastors wrongly inprisoned. Of course, the media can't spin these stories against Trump.

I wonder why you have so much hate for Trump, and so little concern for suffering Christians.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

zeek's hypocrisy exposed ...

But ... Look How Obama Treated Slain Journalists

Charlie Hebdo Journalists should not be slain by authoritarians, tyrants, or ideological fanatics for their views, but they have been, and in the case of President Obama with an attitude of callous indifference. Has the media forgotten the attack on the offices of the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, which, along with a deli attacked at the same time, the Obama administration dismissed as the victims just being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

The lives of the four Jews killed in a kosher market in Paris were dismissed by Obama as "a bunch of folks in a deli" shot "randomly" as they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. After the attack on that kosher market and on Charlie Hebdo, President Obama didn’t have time to join other world leaders in a moving protest march in the streets of Paris. He did have time to watch an NFL playoff game and welcome the San Antonio Spurs to the White House.

James Foley After issuing a perfunctory condemnation of the Islamic State’s beheading of American journalist James Foley, President Obama was moments later on a golf course. The realities of dealing with Islamic terrorism, a phrase that cannot cross his lips, could not be allowed to disturb a President who was contemplating the threat of climate change as he works to correct his slice.

Not only did Obama go golfing after James Foley’s execution, he didn’t do all that much to prevent it, according to Foley’s family:The Obama administration failed James Foley in the 21 months before the journalist was savagely executed, the dead man's brother charged. Michael Foley said the beheading of his sibling by Islamic State (ISIS) jihadists should change America's handling of similar cases in the future."There's more that could have been done directly on Jim's behalf," Michael Foley said in a shot at the White House. "I really, really hope that Jim's death pushes us to take another look at our approach to terrorist and hostage negotiation."

Obama: Too Busy? Our delusional former commander-in-chief, who still believes the massacre at Ft. Hood by jihadist Nidal Hasan is a case of “workplace violence” and that the Charlie Hebdo/deli massacre in Paris was a case of random violence and of victims being in the wrong place at the wrong time pathetically proclaimed at the G-20 Conference in Antalaya, Turkey, as the Federalist reports:

“What I’m not interested in doing is posing or pursuing some notion of American leadership or America winning or whatever other slogans they come up with that has no relationship to what is actually going to work to protect the American people and to protect the people in the region who are getting killed and to protect our allies and people like France,” Obama said. “I’m too busy for that.”

Too busy, the same way you were too busy resting up for a Las Vegas fundraiser the night Ambassador Christopher Stevens, Glen Doherty, Tyrone Woods, and Sean Smith were murdered by a terrorist attack in Benghazi, an attack you and your Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, told the parents of the deal was caused by a video?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

What? You thought Trump invented Fake News? Cheney & Bush were using it long before Trump started using it.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

CNNABCCBSNBCNYTWAPOMSNBCPBS all invented fake news to victimize conservatives.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

All the fake news today can be traced back to Trump. Is that what you mean?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I get it. Trump can't stop blowing his own horn so I can't miss it :

He's the most popular ever in history. And bro Ohio is a happy member of his cult following ... pumping actively to make him even more popular ... like a Puffer Fish.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Remind you of anything? :

Did a hypnotist who treated Adolf Hitler for shell shock in 1918 by using his 'desire to be like a God' help spark the Second World War?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ld-War-II.html

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Reminded me of that Lousy-Ford lady who used hypnotism in an attempt to destroy the reputation of Justice Kavanaugh.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The false prophet builds his entire structure on the foundation of a "fabricated story".

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Mike Salas, a life and professional counselor based in Texas, said he has seen a rise in clients who have fear and anxiety about the end times since the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

Haha, lol. Even the rich secularists are expecting the apocalypse.

A site from one of them :
https://www.alternet.org/psychologis...aring-end-days

Re: Politics and the Church
 

"At a time when the entire world is aghast at President Trump’s delay in condemning the Saudi murder of a Washington Post journalist and horrified at his praise in Montana on Thursday of the unprovoked assault on a US journalist by congressman Greg Gianforte, a lawsuit has been filed alleging that president has been acting unconstitutionally in using powers of the federal government to intimidate and stifle the freedom of the press. The lawsuit claims Trump’s actions:

'stifle exercise of the constitutional protections of free speech and a free press. Through retaliatory directives to officials in his Administration and credible public threats to use his government powers against news organizations and journalists… the President has violated the First Amendment and his oath to uphold the Constitution.'"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevede...g#286c818c795f

Re: Politics and the Church
 

At a time when the entire world is aghast?

I was at two neighborhood parties the other day, and not one person even knew about it.

zeek: definition, "a perpetrator of the sensational and the fake side of news; synonym: a carnival barker."

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Pot Kettle. Lock her up! Lock her up! Lock her up! -- Build the wall! Build the wall! Build the wall! ... sounds like carnival barkers to me.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

25% of students say they were traumatized by the 2016 election, study says

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...tudy-says.html

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I realized recently that the Dredd Scott decision by the Supreme court is very similar to the Roe v Wade decision.

Both were political attempts by the Supreme court to do an end run around the constitution and legislate laws saying that the Constitution legalized Slavery in every state or legalized abortion in every state. The idea in both cases was to attempt to paper over a divisive issue involving righteousness.

The Dredd Scott decision was probably the fork in the road where the Civil war was inevitable.

Interesting that we are now equally turbulent as then.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

This will perhaps be more to your liking :

Christian author: Trump is under attack from ‘multidimensional Luciferian advanced beings:

http://deadstate.org/christian-autho...PVtWWe1Z7fqEUo

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Excellent point. And judicial activism on the high court is perhaps the single most important consideration for constitutional conservatives.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

And there will be plenty of it, now that conservatives have majority.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

We have no idea how Justices will vote on the SCOTUS. Governor Sununu picked by Bush 41 was convinced that Souter was a "reliable conservative." Look how that turned out. Reagan picked Kennedy after Bork got borked, and that was a disaster for social conservatives. I could go on ...

Conservatives merely recognize the incredible and enduring brilliance in the Constitution, and would like it to remain part of our legal system. The Left, however, are violently against it, preferring socialism.

If the Senate picks up a stronger majority, and Trump does not make the disastrous mistake of selecting one for his cabinet, (think AG Sessions) then he will be able to select a 6th Justice like Amy Barrett when RBG gives up the ghost.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Brother Ohio, based on your posts out here, you're prolly delighted that liberals are being targeted with pipe bombs.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Really? In what posts does Ohio indicate that he delights in terrorism, pipe bombs, or threats of violence?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Oh forget it. The pipe bombs are only false flags, planted by liberal democrats.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

wouldn't it be more reasonable to suspect the Russians or Chinese?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Starting to look like that.

But we'll have to wait for the investigation to run it's course.

But who sends out a bunch of bombs that never were intended to blow up?

Obviously intended only to create fear and sway public opinion.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The return address proves this was obviously a political stunt designed to influence the election. The skill at making something like this indicates military training. The scope of all the bombs sent indicates an organization.

I am guessing the Russians.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

...:thumbup: ...or a 700 pound guy living in his mom's basement...

Re: Politics and the Church
 

No way. The unabomber was meticulous, careful, smart, and forensically savvy. As a result it took him months, even years between bombs.

If this is some fat wannabe the police will be arresting him in 48 hours.

No way some loser in his mom's basement sends all of these bombs in a single day and isn't caught. This looks like an organization to me.

Unexploded bombs? That is total arrogance. If we can figure out who made them from fragments after an explosion, imagine being given a bunch of unexploded ones with all the wrappings.

Whoever did this was hitting a hornets nest with a baseball bat, they don't care which way the hornets fly.

The mad bomber, the unabomber, they all had an internal rage. This person doesn't have any rage at all, simply trying to provoke.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The Russians seem to prefer chemicals. I would give them far more respect than these inept devices display.

Seriously though, all the news coming out seems to indicate that none of these was actually a bomb. One pro commented that the photo circulating from CNN seemed more like a stage prop. And how in the world did Jim Acosta get to take a picture of this faux-bomb?

I would guess that the level of professionalism to be found in these devices has more to do with hiding evidence than with actual explosive capability.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Hey zeek, why is it your boy governor Gillum is so easily purchased?

He'll give you anything you want for tickets to Hamilton.

Thousand bucks a seat! Was it really worth it?

Do the right thing and vote for a man of character -- DeSantis.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The information I saw was that these were bombs, and that they were carefully designed to not explode. You are not going to get 100 NYPD and the governor involved in a faux bomb threat. NY does not have any agenda to be viewed as a dangerous place full of bombs.

Although they were not the typical MO of the Russians you are comparing apples and oranges. Whoever did this was not planning on hurting anyone. When the Russians use poison or plutonium they are planning on killing. Once again this looks completely staged. Bombers as a rule have a lot of rage burning white hot. This on the other hand does not express rage. Second the ridiculous return addresses are as blatant a political statement as you can imagine. Bombers have always been trying to make a statement, in fact it is usually resorting to bombs when no one will listen. The statement here seems clear -- remember how much you hate Clinton and the Democratic party.

On the other hand targeting everyone that Trump has singled out, particularly CNN insures that there is a lot of coverage discussing his irresponsible behavior.

Looks like an attempt to provoke ugly discourse on both sides and to make the political process that much uglier. For example look at Awareness post that conservatives are delighted with terrorist attacks, and Zeek's comment reminding us of Trump's accusation of fat guys living in their parents basement.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I guess you are right -- all evidence points to me.

I never did agree with the Dems abortion policies, and I dont know a thing about making bombs either.

Pretty conclusive. I can see why you teach forensicks. (Sic)

Re: Politics and the Church
 

A guy who voted for a pussy grabbing, con artist, and pathological liar shouldn't be talking about integrity.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Joe Biden, Robert Deniro, The Associated Press reported that X-rays showed the package contained a device similar to those addressed to former President Barack Obama, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, ex-CIA Director John Brennan, former Attorney General Eric Holder, Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., and billionaire philanthropist George Soros. Also, CNN. That is 9 packages and counting. That is a lot.

In simple terms, real bombers bomb; they don’t make bomb threats.
In talking to a colleague from the ATFE, I asked him how many bomb threats he had responded to over his 30-plus year-career, where he had found a real bomb and he said, “Zero.” (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-threat-makers)

So what was this, was it a "bombing" or a "threat"? This is why this appears staged by real hunters. A real hunter doesn't know how to "howl" so they simply made a bomb that wouldn't explode, yet those who actually make bomb threats don't know how to make bombs.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

That is a deflection, didn't answer the question.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Typical Leftist strategy -- bear false witness without a shred of evidence. You left out, however, many of your usual accusations.

Didn't you used to be a Christian? How can you publicly break the 9th Commandment.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

You carp about identity politics but then want to play the Christian identity game. Were you thinking about the ninth commandment when you pronounced Gillum guilty?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Are you saying that your local paper and the FBI are not trustworthy?

'I got you': Texts, emails detail how Adam Corey, FBI arranged trips for Andrew Gillum

How about the Washington Post?

Perhaps you have come to your senses and stopped believing what you read in the mainstream media. Others reported it too. It does bother me when the FBI sets up a sting, however, luring officials into criminal activity.

Gillum is a dishonest Socialist, however, and he does not belong in office. DeSantis is an honorable public servant, a veteran, and a business man. He deserves your vote.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Enough about you guys ... :grouphug:

I get the tension, and the finger pointing of both sides. Somebody has to be blamed. Even if we find the guy(s) doing it, we'll have to blame those guilty of motivating him/her. And the right will point left, and the left right.

But right now they're calling this perp The MAGAbomber. Prolly a lefty started that. Who knows? There's crazies on both sides. May the best team win.

But my huge concern is that this right/left thing has become so heated that some are breaking out with acts of terrorism ; Trying to terrorize the opposition, and their supporters.

Whoever is doing it, isn't pipe bombs going just a little too far?

And then, of course, we can expect that trusty ol' tit for tat. And we're off to the races. Regardless who's at fault, this is terrorism. Right now at the Trump opponents.

Really?!? Can a Jesus-kinda-Christian touch any of this?

I'm sorry. Call me a fence sitter, neither hot nor cold - spew - but I can't be in either party. There's lots to watch out for. And the voters are unpredictable. Anything is possible. Red and Blue waves everywhere. Rough seas ... and like torpedo's

NOW PIPE BOMBS??? smh.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I find it interesting that you just now have become concerned. I have been voicing concerns about Leftist violence for some time, yet you were silent.

Are you really sitting on some fence? I'm surprised, since you only seem to condemn Trump, conservatives, Republicans, and Christians.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I'm so sorry for attacking those poor loser minority victims, and not those majority winners like democrats and atheists. And oh I love the Hildabeast.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

As ya'all say, "yer a funny guy."

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Back to the Pipe bombs:

Monday — suspicious device is found in Soros mailbox
Tuesday — Secret Service intercepts suspicious device in Clinton’s mailbox — this can now be viewed as an assassination attempt on a former president.
Wednesday — Secret Service intercept device in Obama’s mail. CNN and John Brennan also had devices. Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Eric Holder also had devices. Maxine Waters had two devices.
Thursday — Robert De Niro had a device found.

My point is that for the last 4 days the FBI, Secret Service, US Postal Office, and full weight of the Federal Govt along with NYPD and other law enforcement agencies have been on this case.

That is plenty of time to pull DNA evidence from these packages. You have to be very skillful with a fully equipped lab to avoid leaving DNA. Even if you don't leave DNA you should still find DNA from others like the clerks at the store where this came from.

Packages mailed in the US Postal service can be traced back to their origin, which I expect has already been done. Therefore one would think we had photographic evidence at this point concerning who mailed this.

Every component of the device can be traced to the store where it was bought, again with the potential of identifying a person who bought this.

The fact that a suspect has not yet been apprehended should impress everyone with the skill of whoever made these "crude" devices not intended to explode. Especially since none of these devices exploded giving the investigators a treasure trove of physical evidence.

The beauty of sending bombs not intended to explode is that it will support both narratives -- the one CNN is pushing about the irresponsibility of the President's rhetoric, and the one FOX is pushing about a "false flag" attack.

Therefore, due to the skill of this perpetrator, their knowledge of everyone that Trump has ridiculed along with their addresses, I consider this to be a very intelligent perp. Therefore I think it is quite reasonable to conclude that the persons intent was to stir up the debate more than anything.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I said from the beginning that the level of professionalism to be found in these devices has more to do with hiding evidence than with actual explosive capability.

And to your point, we do need serious debate about bomb control legislation. Why aren't there more background checks? Did these perps have a concealed carry permit for handbombs? Should we really allow assault bombs to pass thru our mail system? How many of our legislators accept money from the NBA? These are difficult challenges, and it's about time our Congress "shut up, step up, and do your job."

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Remember when with reference to Kavanaugh you posted To my knowledge Gillum hasn't been convicted of a crime. Apparently to you the presumption of innocence is only for conservatives.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

We need to look at the evidence. Why was the FBI investigating Gillum, what have they discovered, and who released this to the public.

With Blousy-Ford, she could never even pass the smell test. Why is it that no prosecutor in the country would use her story to file charges? I realize that this is too difficult for you and the Left to understand, but evidence amd objectivity is really important. Everyone implicated by her as a witness denies even being there. She can't identify the date, the place, the people ... Nothing!

Gillum is totally different. All we need is Gillum's cell phone info to verify that he was indeed at the Hamilton show. Next we need proof of purchase. Check or credit card, from him or his brother. So easy to dispute the FBI undercover agent, if true. Why has Gillum not done this? Why does he use the race card instead? How sleazy is that?

If I was Gillum, I would just admit it. Fess up to being a swamp creature. Admit that he was bribed. And own it that "every body else in Tallahassee does it too." He still might get elected. Happened before!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Thank you for serving as judge and jury in a trial of your own imagination on a guy who hasn't been charged with anything in stark contradiction to the principle of innocent until proven guilty which you claimed for another guy when it was politically convenient. As awareness likes to say you're a peach.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Now looky there. No pipe bombs here.

But breaking news!!!! They got him. Cesar Sayoc, Jr., 56, arrested in Plantation, Fl.

And he's not a demmie. He has a Trump mobile.

And bro ZNP was right. They got with DNA.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...lorida-n924776

Better coverage :

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ier-Sayoc.html

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Just give Mr. Ohio a second to check his extremist sources so that he knows how to spin this.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I never claimed Kavanaugh was "innocent until proven guilty" regarding his SCOTUS nomination. More false witness, zeeky? I repeatedly said to carefully examine all the evidence and the witnesses, and your Lousy-Ford came up wanting. Seriously wanting. One nasty sicko. Read all about her. It's that simple.

Gillum's case is completely different. And, if wrongly charged, then easily disproved. Why has Gillum not done that? If he was not at Hamilton, just provide an alibi. If he paid for the tickets, just show proof. If he was not bribed by these gifts, and did not award contracts to this undercover "lobbyist" FBI agent, then it should be easy to prove. Just do it!

But don't play the race card and claim Gillum was targeted for being Black. That's racism and politics at their swampy worst. All politicians should be held accountable. Left and right. Right?

zeek, I understand you live in or near Tallahassee. You deserve better. Or perhaps not. You get to choose. And I've heard that you're a peach too.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Yes, that is exactly where we are. And there is a Kitchen Aid mixer whipping it to a frenzy . . . . the Tweeter-in-chief himself. The official Divider of the United States.

We got what we wanted. Someone who fight for our "god-given rights" at any cost. (I say liitle "g" god because we gave them to ourselves. God wasn't covenentally responsible for giving them.)

And look at what it has cost.

For the first time in my voting life, I am NOT voting a straight GOP ticket. I almost did it in 2016, but did a write-in instead. I might not like everything about the politics of some of the people I will vote for, but I do like their humanity. And some opposition to the direction that the Twit in Chief is taking us.

Several years back, the movie (a comedy) My Fellow Americans followed two ex-presidents. At one point they traded their own lyrics for "Hail to the Chief." They went something like this:

Hail to the Chief
He's the Chief and he needs hailing
I am the Chief
So you better watch your step, you . . . . .

and

Hail to the Chief
If you don't I'l have to kill you

But now there needs to be a new one:

Jail to the Chief
He's a thief and he needs jailing

I know this is not popular with some, but Trump is so absolutely unfit for the job and should be fired at the first possible point in time.

Thanks for the opportunity to rant.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Yo, OBW, just like John McCain, if you wanted some "love" in your life, you did the right thing -- just hate the Trump, and the Lefty's here will love you.

Oh, and do take some time and tell us about that terrible Ted Cruz.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Correction : Stoker-in-chief.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Correction : "Beautiful" Ted Cruz. Trump no longer calls him Lyin' Ted.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The main problem with outlawing explosive capability is that all of the components are used regularly in construction. Even dirty bombs could be easily built from a host of items that are commonplace, easily obtained, and would be absurd to outlaw.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

An example of reconciliation unknown in the LCM.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Christian's should sign uo :

Flip Congress for the Common Good

"We’re ready to shift the national conversation from fear to faith and flip Congress for the common good. Will you join the revolution?"

"Jesus called us to love the world. Not Christians, not us here at Vote Common Good, but the whole world. Whole. World."

https://www.votecommongood.com/tour-speakers-musicians/

Re: Politics and the Church
 

This is just a bunch of nonsense to fool the ignorant. Here is their mission statement:

Vote Common Good is the mission of being in the here and now of this historical moment.

We want to dislodge control of Congress from the Republican Party on November 6th, because we believe that this would most directly affect common good in our country. That’s our chosen strategy for this midterm. For another election, we may have another strategy, irrespective of a party.

This has always been the Socialist message of the Left. "Hey let's give control of Congress to the Left, since they're so kind, honest, loving, and decent." That's what Pelosi and Schumer told us.

If you really want to understand the Left, looking past their many deceptions, you need to watch their "agents of change" -- the masked ANTIFA/BLM/Occupy types attacking innocent people, shutting down free speech, and destroying property.

With Capitalism, we do have rich and poor people. With Socialism we only have poor people.

Yes, let's flip Congress, promote Socialism, love everybody, and become like Venzuela!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Yesterday, 01:26 PM #4577 [QUOTE=Ohio;81050]I never claimed Kavanaugh was "innocent until proven guilty" regarding his SCOTUS nomination.

09-29-2018, 12:06 PM #4324 [QUOTE=Ohio;80117] The Democrats never gave him the presumption of innocence. They demanded more than perfection.

09-26-2018, 06:55 PM #4295 [QUOTE=Ohio;80005]No more justice here? No more presumption of innocence?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

In my 68 years I've never seen a president stoke division and violence like Trump does.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Yer a funny guy. Didn't you live thru the riots of the 60's?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Bad day for the Left's Legendary Lawyer and Savior Michael Avenatti.

The Senate Judiciary Chairman has 2 referrals to the DOJ regarding him.

Yes, zeek, he has the presumption of innocence until he is convicted for deceiving Congress.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

[QUOTE=zeek;81071]Yesterday, 01:26 PM #4577 [QUOTE=Ohio;81050]I never claimed Kavanaugh was "innocent until proven guilty" regarding his SCOTUS nomination.

09-29-2018, 12:06 PM #4324 [QUOTE=Ohio;80117] The Democrats never gave him the presumption of innocence. They demanded more than perfection.

09-26-2018, 06:55 PM #4295 Big difference here, my friend.

Criminal courts require that the indicted are "innocent until proven guilty" in a court of law.

But in the court of public opinion, "the presumption of innocence" is required at least until the facts can be brought forth, especially in so-called SCOTUS "job interviews."

Sorry, zeek, but I'm continually amazed at how readily gullible you are to believe the lie. If God and His word are the source of wisdom, then what will forsaking God and His word leave you with?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Neither Johnson nor Nixon intentionally called for division and violence the way Trump does.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

[QUOTE=Ohio;81075][QUOTE=zeek;81071]Yesterday, 01:26 PM #4577 [QUOTE=Ohio;81050]I never claimed Kavanaugh was "innocent until proven guilty" regarding his SCOTUS nomination.

09-29-2018, 12:06 PM #4324 You're the one who used the presumption of innocence to defend Kavanaugh while parroting Trump and then denied that you had and now are giving your explanation of your confused thinking about it. You apparently consider your thinking a product of God's wisdom which would be :lol: if it weren't so :sad:.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

No, they just sent tens of thousands of kids drafted to go fight a war in Vietnam for "national defense"? That was as divisive a time as we have every seen in my lifetime.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

That was misguided to say the least. I never saw them deliberately promote civic division like Trump does.As a matter of fact they tried to unite the people in support of their cause which they saw as necessary. If you don't see what I'm talking about, feel free to let it go. I'm not trying to persuade you of something you don't see. That would be a waste of time. I'm just witnessing to my truth.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

You are horribly misguided by a deceitful media.

Trump never called for violence.

And division? Isn't that called politics?

And obviously your news sources have not informed you of Pelosi's, DeNero's, Madonna's, Holder's, Maxine's, Hilary's, etc. calls for violence.

The Blind leading the Blind!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Me too. Nothing so divisive as telling us we need to go fight and die in Vietnam for the national defense when that was total BS, simply a place for our Military industrial complex to do R&D.

As a result kids went ballistic, riots, songs, leaving for Canada, etc.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Misguided? Running the Viet Nam war out of the Oval Office is worse than misguided, but we all know how blind you are to every fault of the Left.

There is lots of evidence out there that Viet Nam was a false flag operation. At least JFK had the sense to stop it, and that's prolly why he got killed. The FIRST thing LBJ did in office was to reverse JFK's decision on Viet Nam.

LBJ and JEHoover did more to divide our country than any others in history, with the exception of the Civil War.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I just heard this morning the Trump is really miffed. That the pipe bombs didn't go off.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Conservatives supported the Viet Nam war. It was part of the struggle against Communism. Are you a commie?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

[QUOTE=zeek;81077][QUOTE=Ohio;81075]You don't like my explanation? What else is new.

Let me repeat.

The presumption of innocence is part of the American experience, reaching every part of our culture. It is needed now more than ever with this evil, crooked media we have. This is designed to protect the innocent from evil lies and false witnesses, as in Brett Kavanaugh's and Clarence Thomas's situations.

This presumption of innocence does NOT mean that someone cannot be found guilty in the court of public opinion. That will be determined by fair-minded individuals as evidence comes forward. In the case of that Lousy-Ford, she either lied or pled ignorance to every detail of the event for 36 years, but knew for sure that it was Kavanaugh. She had zero corroboration of any evidence whatsoever. It says a whole lot about your character when you are willing to believe such people.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is the judicial standard for conviction according to the various thresholds defined by law, i.e. "the burden of proof," e.g. "beyond a reasonable doubt, a preponderance of evidence," etc.

Apparently the media has robbed you of this little bit of common sense "wisdom." And you are almost 70 yo?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The Communist Party has long been affiliated with the liberal Left.

Look in the mirror, my friend.


Obama was affiliated with that 60's bomber, Bill Ayers, and followed that commie, Saul Alinsky.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

You're a True Believer of far-right propaganda like your buddy Cesar Sayoc.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

[QUOTE=Ohio;81086][QUOTE=zeek;81077]:blahblah: With many words you try to obfuscate the fact that you extended the presumption of innocence to Kavanaugh but denied it to Gillum.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

[QUOTE=Ohio;81086][QUOTE=zeek;81077]The Law in the OT was very clear, you could not convict someone based on one witness. In addition if someone is convicted of being a false witness they were supposed to be given the judgement that they were trying to put on someone else. Now the woman who accused Kavanaugh of working with others to gang rape her should be convicted of being a false witness.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

As one who has been hit with a few false accusations, I like this part of the OT Law.

Does this also apply to creepy porn lawyers like Avenatti?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I applied the same standard to both. First you complain I was not clear enough, then you complain I use too many words.

Kavan-awesome came up innocent by every standard.

Lousy-Ford was a sick, false witness, victimized by Senator Frankenstein and the Left.

GlueLam had his chance to clear his name, but instead he played the race card.

Vote DeSantis! Vote America! Vote Integrity!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

[QUOTE=Ohio;81091][QUOTE=ZNPaaneah;81090]Whoa! What? Avenatti has made false accusations about you? I was sure you were going to say Zeek.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Neither, just a comment about false witnesses in my lifetime.

God's law is fair and just.


But zeek did accuse me of being a friend of Cesar Sayoc.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

At Least 8 Dead and Officers Shot in Saturday Morning Attack on Synagogue

Wow! Just saw this. Violence strikes close to home. I used to live down the street from this synagogue.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

[QUOTE=Ohio;81091][QUOTE=ZNPaaneah;81090]This post is screwed up. Bro zeek didn't say the material quoted. Prolly ZNP did.

So bro Ohio, fix it. Or I will.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

DeSantis has my vote!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The Left's greatest nightmare:


BLEXIT: the BLack EXIT from the Democrat party.


https://blexit.com/wp-content/themes...lustration.png


Incredible Logo artwork by Kanye West, inspired by a trip that he and Candace Owens took to Uganda in Africa.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

More bad news for zeek and his boy gov'ner Gillum ...

Democrat Andrew Gillum Billed FBI Undercover Agent $4,386 For Fundraiser, Never Disclosed In Finance Reports


Advice to Gillum: Keep your eyes on the agents under the covers

Re: Politics and the Church
 

In 2017 anti semitic attacks increased 67% from 2016. That surge has continued into 2018.

https://www.adl.org/news/press-relea...mpared-to-2016

Re: Politics and the Church
 

1) A Trump lover, and pipe bombs.

2) A Trump hater, and shooting at synagogue.

3) Both white supremacists.

4) Must be those very fine people on both sides, that Trump mentioned about those at Charlottesville.

5) I'm sick of winning. And so glad America is great again.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

What happened to you?

Your hatred for Trump is making you sick.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Give him the same presumption of innocence that you gave to Kavanaugh. Neither have been found guilty in a court of law. Innocent until proven guilty.

Aren't you shocked by your own legal relativism coming as it does from a professed conservative? What have you become since leaving THE CHURCH, some kind of postmodernist?:nono:

But, whatever you do, keep eshewing the mainstream media. Continue consuming and believing the extremist screeds that tell you what you want to hear. Those are the ones that radicalized Right-wing activist Caesar Sayoc. That's why all he went after the same people that you castigate with hate every day on this thread. You two guys are reading the same stuff.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Hmm? I wonder what happened in 2017 that might have encourage them? It couldn't be that that's when Donald Trump took office could it?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

During the Kavanaugh nomination, every Democratic Senator clamored unceasingly for an FBI investigation. That's exactly what they got with Gillum!

And zeek is still whining (wining?) away the day! Give him what he wants and he just keeps crying! :sad: :sad: :sad:

Vote DeSantis! Vote integrity! Vote America!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

No brother, what I've seen going on this week is making me sick. And your complicity in demagoguery is disturbing.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

No to divisive, hateful rhetoric and the fomenting of it.
Yes to public policies that make minorities secure.
Yes to the idea that we are all called to love.
Yes to the idea that God is inclusive love.

http://www.openhorizons.org/after-th...lgQXMQyt3nHgq0

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Integrity? Bahahahaha. Unless white supremacy is integrity to you.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The heading to the article says :

In appreciation of Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson's ministry, and his sharing of rabbinic wisdom with the wider world, Muslims and Christians included,

by Farhan Shah and Jay McDaniel

I'm impressed by the inclusion of Muslim's ... and their response to the killing of Jews at the synagogue :

"Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) released a statement on Saturday in solidarity with the Jewish community.

“We condemn this heinous and cowardly attack on a house of worship, offer heartfelt condolences to the loved ones of all those who were killed or injured and express our solidarity with the Jewish community during this time of shock and grief,” said program director Zohra Lasania."

AMEN !!!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Pence is supporting Trump's stochastic terrorism speaking.

'I just don't think you can connect it to threats or acts of violence': Pence dismisses any suggestions of a link between Trump's rhetoric and the MAGAbomber or Pittsburgh shooting

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...c-attacks.html

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I think it is reasonable to assume that the Arab nations are taking advantage of our social media the same way we know the Russians and Chinese are.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Or maybe as Trump suggested, it's a 400 pound hacker in his basement.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

“President Trump, you are not welcome in Pittsburgh until you fully denounce white nationalism,” the leaders of the local chapter of Bend the Arc wrote, adding:

“For the past three years, your words and your policies have emboldened a growing white nationalist movement. You yourself called the murderer evil, but yesterday’s violence is the direct culmination of your influence.”

The group said Trump’s rhetoric had not only led to attacks on Jewish people, but also “deliberately undermined the safety of people of color, Muslims, LGBTQ people and people with disabilities.”

The organization also demanded that Trump “stop targeting and endangering all minorities,” “cease your assault on immigrants and refugees” and “commit yourself to compassionate, democratic policies that recognize the dignity of all of us.”

https://www.bendthearc.us/open_lette...resident_trump

Re: Politics and the Church
 

A house divided cannot stand.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

These "progressive" Jewish voices also hate George Bush, PM Netanyahu, the nation of Israel, Jesus Christ, etc.

They have no idea who their real friends and enemies are. They even stand up for the "oppressed" Palestinians.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Deuteronomy 27:19 Cursed is anyone who with holds Justice from The Foreigner, the fatherless or the Widow. Then all the people shall say Amen. Exodus 12:49 the same law applies both to the native-born and to The Foreigner residing among you. Exodus 23: 9 do not oppress a foreigner. You yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners because you were foreigners in Egypt.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I read an excerpt of Ron DiSantis' book here :https://www.amazon.com/Dreams-Our-Fo...MJCYVCTPWN0NAK

But, I haven't bought the book so I don't know if it's true that he excuses the Three-Fifths Compromise in the U.S. Constitution, which counted a black person as only three-fifths of a whole person to determine congressional representation.

I read that DeSantis defends the founding fathers for agreeing to the compromise because “counting slaves as less than a full person for purposes of representation benefited anti-slavery states.” DeSantis supposedly maintains that allowing slaves to be counted as three-fifths of a white person gave slave states extra representation without having to actually allow black people to vote.

Sounds like he thinks the Constitution is inerrant and holding black slaves as less than fully persons was a good thing . :loopy: That can't be true. Has anybody read his book?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Who is oppressing foreigners? Certainly not the Trump administration!

Trump admin even stopped putting children in fenced cages, which the Obama admin practiced.

All foreigners in Israel had to abide by the LAW. This is exactly what Trump demands. This policy protects both citizens AND immigrants.

Sorry if this violates your snowflake sensibilities and perverted progressivism. What a deceitful way to increase voter registration for the Democrats!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

zeek, I thought you wanted *honest* public servants who did not use office for personal gains?

Surely you can't still be supporting Gillum, who is under FBI investigation for ethical violations, bribes, and corruption.

#BELIEVEtheFBI

What do we know about the FBI cloud over Andrew Gillum's campaign?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Yeah it was a snowflake who wrote those verses in the Bible which you chose to ignore.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Did you answer my question?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

It is interesting that the Left has finally begun to "search the scriptures." Unfortunately for them, they search as did the Pharisees of old.

I never ignored those scriptures. I agree with them wholeheartedly. But when the Philistines or other enemies came marching into Israel, did they treat them as "foreigners" or an invading army?

Obviously you cannot tell the difference. When 80% of these "refugees" are young, able, healthy young men, that should be a clue.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

And then some!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

This is how the LEFT teaches to "love your neighbor":

Death Threats, Assaults, Vandalism: over 40 Acts of Left-Wing Thuggery in October, So Far…

And then zeek will lecture us to "love" the invading army of illegal "foreigners" at the border.

zeek, why do you and your ilk only love those who support your socialist ideology to overthrow our country?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

You wish to be accepted as an individual but I have to have an ilk. Why doesn't that seem fair? :scratchhead:

Re: Politics and the Church
 

"THE SAME LAW"

Study Bible
Idolaters to Be Put to Death
…8 you must not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity, and do not spare him or shield him. 9 Instead, you must surely kill him. Your hand must be the first against him to put him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death for trying to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.…Berean Study Bible · Download

Re: Politics and the Church
 

If you would stop with the name-calling and accusations of idolatry, perhaps we could discuss the issues themselves.

The great US columnist Charles Krauthammer once noted this truth about contemporary political life in America: ‘To understand the workings of American politics you have to understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil.’

Herein lies the problem. Conservatives see the Left having only stupid and failing ideas. Liberals see the Right as having evil intentions and motives, and being evil people. Since those on the Right are evil, they are labeled "racists, xenophobes, misogynists, homophobes, supremacists, fascists, etc." whether there is evidence or not. I constantly hear this from the media and the posts I read.

This dynamic prevents the discussion of ideas on their merits. It also becomes justification for using any means necessary. This is extremely unfortunate, as it seems to be pushing us towards riots and violence. If the Left continues this way, then fringes on the Right will react in kind. I hope not, not just because I abhor the violence, but because I know that those who do not support the 2nd Amendment will get the worst of it.

In politics the "discussion of ideas" should take place in Congress. That is our American system. If the results are not satisfactory, then too bad, wait for the next election. When ObamaCare came before the SCOTUS, as much as I hated that legislation, I agreed with Chief Justice Roberts -- the law was enacted in Congress, signed by the elected President, and so be it. Let there be higher taxes.

Personally I think "gridlock" in Congress is a good thing. It's only bad when the POTUS then feels justified to enact Executive Orders, and the Courts become activist agents for change.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Every news event is used by the media to divide America:

Tree of Life Rabbi to CNN: Trump ‘Always Welcome’ at Our Synagogue, ‘He Is My President’

How unfortunate that some voices were used by the Media to smear Trump, and then others are forced to speak up on behalf of Trump.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Revelation 18: "the whole world is deceived by pharmakeia" ....


Following up on your earlier post about making cancer illegal.

It is too profitable to do that.

Instead, in the forties and fifties, they made curing cancer illegal, as it is (for the most part) still today.

Much much more money in disease than there is in preventing and curing disease, even though preventing most disease (without drugs) is easier than causing it or allowing it to happen often then pretending to "care" and given "feel better" things for it.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Krauthammer was the founder of the Never Trump movement. I agreed with him on that. He was an agnostic Jew who claimed he was a better Christian than Trump. I believe him. I'll get back to you tomorrow on the other stuff.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

And the evidence with which you support this claim is...?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The key here is "was." After Krauthammer saw Trump govern, he changed his attitude, and was no longer a "never-Trumper." I too went thru a similar journey with Trump. I did not vote for Trump in the primary. Like Krauthammer, many conservatives needed time to assess who Trump really was. Getting past the ego, Trump is one of the few politicians who actually intends to keep campaign promises.

Trump never ran as a "better" Christian. Unlike Obama, Trump did not falsely claim to be "born again." This returns us to the age old hypocrisy concerning the demands for morality in office. For years we were lectured to ignore Clinton's infidelities in lieu of "job performance." What saved Clinton cannot also clear Trump? Recent court developments even question the validity of old Trump affairs.

Think about Gillum as you answer!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I don't vote in Florida, and have not seen any evidence that Gillum is guilty of fraud or theft, but I think his response about "not wrestling with a pig" is lame. You are running for office, there is an allegation of fraud in your position as mayor and there is an allegation of corruption in the city that you were mayor of. Responding that you don't "wrestle with pigs" because you will get dirty is pathetic. At the very least come out and say "not guilty". If you want, spice it up a little and say "fake news" you could even go so far as to call the media pushing this narrative "the enemy".

It is a valid question to ask anyone running for office and should be responded to in a way that clearly and emphatically denies wrong doing.

"My grandmother told me not to wrestle with pigs" is a deflection and indicates deceit.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Gillum has serious charges against him since they are made by undercover FBI agents. Of course he is not "guilty" of a crime without it being proven in the court of law. But as you know, the quality of the witness against one in court means everything. Ask Manafort. The IRS wants their money!

Personally I doubt that Gillum has not done anything that 80-90% of politicians have not done. Think about how politicians become so wealthy in office. Many are worth 10-100 times what their salary paid in office. How does that work? That's why I say that it is a given that all politicians are liars and crooks. That's like baseline morality. We build on that, good or bad.

Were Gillum a Republican, the media would be all over it. He would be publicly lynched. But as a progressive he mostly gets a free pass. If elected, will the DOJ file charges? They did against Menendez, and he may still win in NJ.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

My grandmother told me not to lie or steal.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Trump should have listened to your grandmother.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

If you were not so blinded by hate, I think you would see Trump as a forthright, results-oriented, and transparent President. As it is, you have lived off a media diet of biased fake news for years. Try to rationally analyze the accusations against Trump. Think about the Russian collusion charges which you bought into. After two years, they have nothing on Trump, so what do you think about all those who were so sure about him? Next think about the charges of white supremecy / anti semitism / fascism. No facts, but who cares? His daughter is Jewish. His support for Israel is second to none. But everyone seems to hate the guy so all mud-slinging is applauded. And celebrated in the media.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

That is fake news! There is no evidence that Trump ever talked to Ohio's grandmother.:p

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Are we still talking about the psychedelic drugs?

Vulgar. Rude. Incendiary.

Many, many indictments and guilty pleas. So far I am happy with how taxpayer money is spent and no doubt the investigation is not over, simply keeping quiet during the election.


Perhaps, but it is undeniable that those of that persuasion are overwhelmingly pro Trump.


I don't consider him to be anti Jewish, rather I consider him to be a nationalist, and of course he is white, and he is strongly anti immigration, protectionist, even perhaps xenophobic. I also consider his conversation to be frank, transparent, incendiary, and undignified.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

How much responsibility does President Trump have for inciting the recent acts of political violence? Here's an opinion: "The president and his supporters insisted that several thousand Honduran migrants were a looming menace—and the Pittsburgh gunman took that seriously."

Before committing the Tree of Life massacre, the shooter, who blamed Jews for the caravan of “invaders” and who raged about it on social media, made it clear that he was furious at HIAS, founded as the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, a Jewish group that helps resettle refugees in the United States. He shared posts on Gab, a social-media site popular with the alt-right, expressing alarm at the sight of “massive human caravans of young men from Honduras and El Salvador invading America thru our unsecured southern border.” And then he wrote, HIAS likes to bring invaders in that kill our people. I can’t sit by and watch my people get slaughtered. Screw your optics, I’m going in.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...n-jews/574213/

So, I repeat the question: How much responsibility does President Trump have for inciting the recent acts of political violence?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

It's like Domino's. You can't blame the first one for knocking down the last one.

Trump blames the media. The violence is their fault, for reporting and recording his inflammatory rhetoric.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

What's wrong with NATIONALISM? It's the same as patriotism.

I strongly protest the accusations of "strongly anti immigration, even perhaps xenophobic." In this regard Trump only reverberates the desires of Americans. I do think "protectionist" is a great thing, however. Except for Obama, show me one President in history who was not PROTECTIONIST? Xenophobism is a false accusation. Trump only demands immigration that is legal and does not threaten American citizens. Sounds to me like "Law and Order."

Why is it that every politician, including Obama, Clintons', Schumer, etc. is on record supporting a southern wall and limits to immigration? Ten years ago even the Left would have been appalled at the thought of "Sanctuary" cities. My, how has America changed.

And how have you changed? Just because conservatives have resisted the daily onslaught of progressive ideology, gone crazy during the Obama era, does not mean we are guilty of any of the "-ISTS" and "-OBES" that we are accused of. It seems to me that you hate Trump because he fights back, as if being "presidential" means to be wimpy, and taken advantage of by the rest of the world, including the UN.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Not only does Trump stoke violence with his divisive, xenophobic rhetoric, but he shut down programs to counter violent extremism. His "administration has hobbled the infrastructure designed to prevent atrocities like Pittsburgh."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...hbD-FB8asQzMiI

Re: Politics and the Church
 

This guy in Pittsburgh despised Jews and hated Trump for siding with them. Sounds like a good reason to gather all his guns and go kill random, innocent Jews in a Synagogue? Yup, it's all Trump's fault. Then announce it on TV, and all the idiots in the world will believe it.

Your fellow Floridian Cesar Sayoc apparently liked Trump. Thus Trump has the exact same level of responsibility for those mail bombs as Bernie Sanders does for the actions of James T. Hodgkinson shooting up the Republican baseball team and almost killing Steve Scalise.

That would be ZERO.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

These American Muslim's are acting so Christian. They're not inciting violence. They're showing love :

'We wish to respond to evil with good': Muslim Americans raise more than $150,000 for Pittsburgh synagogue shooting victims and their families

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-victims.html

Re: Politics and the Church
 

My accusations were rude, vulgar and incendiary. Those points you can assume are things that are "wrong". I didn't say his nationalism was wrong. But in the extreme it is wrong. Again, nothing wrong with protecting the borders, but xenophobia in the extreme is bad.

I did not accuse him of xenophobia, I said merely that it is a possibility given his attitude towards trade, borders, and our treaties.

Protectionism -- can be a very good strategy to get a better trade deal, if that is how he ultimately uses it then I applaud him. On the other hand protectionism as a policy is foolish, it shrinks the overall size of the pie, it hurts many economies including ours which leads to destabilization of regimes, wars, civil wars, revolutions, and all kinds of expenses that will dwarf the effects of a bad trade deal.

Once again the only "accusations" I made were vulgar, rude and incendiary. Those are three things that I dislike and which have not changed.

I am ambivalent towards his "wall". I have no issue with the President taking seriously his obligation to protect our borders. I am also simply a passenger watching as he renegotiates our treaties. If he does a better job I will give him credit, and I have no intention of being a backseat driver while he does that. If he wants to give the impression of being xenophobic to get a better deal, so be it. But there is a cost for the president to have the appearance of evil.

I don't think he is anti semitic. I am uncomfortable with his praise of dictators. But, I also agree that the media is making things much worse, and some of them are incredibly biased. Especially the comedians. The commentary has become very ugly. I don't agree with blaming Trump for that. You can't bloviate on the TV about how "unpresidential" he is if you are doing the same thing, even worse.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Yes by all means stop the comedians! :hysterical:

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I agree with you that the media has been nothing but "rude, vulgar and incendiary" towards President Trump and his family.

Would you like a list of examples? I'll start with calling Ivanka a "feckless c**t, threatening to sodomize Baron, and sending white powder to Don Jr. hospitalizing his wife for 2 weeks. Vanessa was so traumatized she left the marriage and all public life.

Perhaps you don't think these are "rude, vulgar and incendiary?"

Re: Politics and the Church
 

But Trump isn't identifying just who among the fake news is the enemy of the people. If it's true, and Trump doesn't tell us just who our enemy is, isn't he then complicit with the enemy of the people?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

So let me understand this. If Trump does not spell them out by name, as if we actually need that, then he is still guilty.

Yup, makes a lot of sense.

You have just given us a new standard for guilt.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Here's the nuts and bolts about this crooked extremist Gillum:

Florida gubernatorial candidate and Tallahassee Mayor Andrew Gillum served as the director of a radical youth training organization whose mission was to challenge U.S. “predatory capitalism,” abolish the prison system, fight a “spiritual resistance” battle against “Christian hegemony,” redefine the meaning of “borders” while aiding “undocumented” aliens, and enact the “collective liberation” of “communities of color” amid what it described as the scourge of “white supremacy.”

Gillum’s group accused the U.S. of being a “colonialist” power perpetrating “structural violence” and “continued genocide.” It claimed conservatives in the U.S. judicial system were “justifying white supremacist policing practices.” All of that extremist rhetoric and more was posted on the official “issues” sections of the organization’s website while Gillum not only served as its active director, but while his picture, position and bio were brandished on the same site on the “staff” page.

Gillum, Lettman-Hicks and Dream Defenders’ Agnew each are graduates of an Oakland, California-based training school for progressive revolutionaries that has spawned a list of activists who have gone on to become the who’s who of the far-left leadership world, with many taking senior positions at organizations financed by Soros.

In scores of cases, graduates of the Rockwood Leadership Institute founded or directed notorious Soros-financed activist groups, such as Black Lives Matter, Media Matters for America, MoveOn.org and the Tides Foundation, one of the nation’s largest funders of progressive groups. Soros’s own Open Society Foundations sent top staff to Rockwood for training. Notorious radicals Van Jones and Linda Sarsour are among the many famous names listed as alums.

Hey zeek, does he sound good for America? Sounds like the makings for Hitler's National Socialist Workers Party.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The person who said that would be characterized as a comedian. Like I said they have expressed the worst bias.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

How can you justify spewing hate and vitriol in the name of comedy?

America is a country addicted to its laughter by so-called comedians. It used to be that late night ones like Leno, Letterman, Carson, Rivers, etc. were basically neutral. Today you would be hard pressed to find anything but hard left, obnoxious, R-rated, Trump hating comedians. Someone conservative like Tim Allen is hard pressed just to stay on TV.

When I refer to the "mainstream media," comedy is also included, and is regrettably a huge part of our culture.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Where did I justify it?

Do you read what I say? You "strongly protest" the accusation of strongly anti immigration. Is that for real, how could anyone disagree that Trump is strongly anti immigration, his platform is the wall, shutting down the border, and numerous other comments that indicate a change in policy towards reducing and controlling immigration.

You say that xenophobic is a false accusation. I never accused Trump of this, only said it was a possibility.

You accuse me of hating Trump when there is nothing that I have said in over two years that could be used to support that.

And now in this post you accuse me of justifying these comedians. I haven't justified them, I have pointed out that their accusations of Trump being to blame for the ugly discourse is hypocritical and their own bias disqualifies anything they say to this end. I have said that their bias is demonstrated in the extreme. How is my saying they have exhibited the worst bias seen by you as justifying them?

I agree that it is getting very difficult to listen to anything these comedians do or say. I think it is because their audience is the young 20 something crowd. I used to like Jonathan Stewart, I thought he gave an insightful perspective on the news and loved his ability to pull up old footage and tapes exhibiting the hypocrisy of various leaders. His replacement, on the other hand, is terrible.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

To me, when someone passes hateful rhetoric off as comedy, it sounded like you were excusing it.

I disagree. Millions of Americans would also disagree.

Trump has ALWAYS said that he is for LEGAL and SAFE immigration. That is obviously too difficult for the LEFT to understand. When ISIS fighters were disguised as Syrian et.al. refugees, Trump limited immigration from certain dangerous countries, ones previously marked out by the Obama admin. Have you seen the crime waves in England, Germany, France, and Sweden? But then the Left smears Trump as Anti-Muslim.

We have drugs, gangs, and illegals crossing our Southern border every day. Every aged politician is on record supporting a wall and restricted immigration. Trump comes along and decides to stop talking and start building. The Left, including posters here, once again smears him as a xenophobe, as anti-immigrant, as white supremacist, as racist, as hateful, as Fascist, etc.

Forgive my semantics. I thought accusations of anti-immigrant were the same as that.

Sorry if I lumped you in with other haters. It's hard at times to distinguish constant condemnation from "hatred." I admit that your comments are more reserved than others.

Thanks for nuancing your views.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

This is semantics. You don't like my simplification of "anti immigration" fine, but the reality is that his focus from the first day of his campaign has had immigration reform as a centerpiece. And by reform we are referring to shipping millions of "illegal" immigrants back to their country, building a wall, and even using presidential decrees to limit immigration.


I didn't say "anti immigrant" that is a misquote, I said "anti immigration".

You are confusing condemnation with observation. When I say he is rude that is an observation that cannot be denied, nor does the fact that there are other rude people change that. Likewise when I say he is vulgar, sure you can call it "locker room talk" and no doubt others like Kavanaugh have also done the same, but that doesn't make the observation less valid. Likewise when I say his remarks are incendiary. That is a fact. That is the secret to his success. He was able to use twitter to suck all the air out of all the other candidates.

No one gets elected president who isn't talented. Trump's vulgarity and rudeness are part of his talent at being incendiary. Obama was talented, Clinton was talented, even Bush was talented. They all had their talents, that doesn't in any way imply they were good leaders or that they were moral people. The question is to what end does he use his talents. We are told to not judge before the time. Too many have judged Trump before the time. It is too early to do that.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Your response is expected (from someone — not necessarily you). Everything is black and white. There are the Conservatives and Liberals. Nothing in between. Polarization gone viral. Nobody can have any considerations to the left of the far right without being in Bernie Sander's pocket.

I had more to say, but I think that this sums up the problem with the Evangelical Christian love fest with Trump.

FEAR
Fear of:

Liberals
Foreigners
Other ethnicities
Gays
Abortionists

There is no consideration that the kingdom of the world is not (at this time) the kingdom of our God. But we are. And we should live like we are. We should "fear not." Fear not the sword, or the tax man. Or the civil allowance of "marriage" between two persons of the same sex.

We are not required to define marriage for purposes of the church on the basis of the civil/legal definition in vogue at the time.

But we are required to love them the same as we love ourselves. And the way so many Christians are railing against people not like themselves (other ethnicities, those in the caravan, from Middle-Eastern nations, LGBQ, etc.) it is clear that they either are failing at the call to love, or don't really think much of themselves.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The presumption of innocence technically does not apply to nomination confirmations. The question is not whether the person should or should not be jailed, or even just put on parole. It is whether he should be given a job — in this case a lifetime job on the Supreme Court.

If character matters for a president who can only give us grief for 8 years, then it should really matter for a SCOTUS judge. Too many questions could be enough. There is no bright line of "beyond a reasonable doubt," or even "more likely than not." It is not unreasonable to withhold confirmation just because there were too many unanswered (or inadequately answered) questions.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Are you kidding, or has TDS just gripped your sanity?

The presumption of innocence applies to every area of life! What if I started making accusations about you on this forum? What if I walk into a church and accuse the pastor? What if I walk into the police station and accuse the police? Or listen to one child tattle/fib about another? Only the naivest of people would believe such accusations without corroborative proof. No, my friend, the presumption of innocence is the bedrock of a free world.

I heard that some are coming forward with allegations against Muller. It seems like special prosecutors are also appointed for life. Where do you draw your "bright line" here.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I agree with this. However, I feel that this should not be a license to smear or falsely accuse, which is clearly what ultimately happened with Kavanaugh. If Feinstein had raised this concern in the closed session it could have all been answered and investigated without slandering. Instead we got some woman accusing him of being involved in a gang rape in the media. So he was unable to defend himself, it wasn't done in the hearing, lowering her risk of perjury, yet was clearly damaging to Kavanaugh and his family. Feinstein should be held accountable for this. Now if this woman is held accountable a Supreme court justice will have to take her to court for slander. That in turn creates a whole new media circus. Feinstein should be held accountable for creating this travesty.

It seems to me that public comments and concerns should be left to those that have been verified with 2 or more witnesses, FBI investigative conclusions, etc. and unverified charges should be limited to closed door sessions.

Just as we should be holding our elected officials and nominees to important positions to a higher standard than "reasonable doubt" we also should not be ignorant that there will be political forces that wish to defeat the nominee/ candidate by any means necessary. For example, this case with the women being bribed to accuse Mueller of sexual harassment:
Robert Mueller: Woman targeted by inept plot to bring down US special counsel reveals how it rapidly fell apart

Re: Politics and the Church
 

You don't know what you are talking about. The standard for a criminal trial is much higher than for a civil trial. This is why a policeman can be found "not guilty" of a crime and still lose a lawsuit for millions of dollars in civil court.

There are many pieces of evidence that can be excluded from a criminal trial, that is not true of a hearing.

What OBW said is true, the hearing is not about "the presumption of innocence" since this is not a criminal trial. No one has been accused of a crime, nor is the purpose to determine if someone is guilty of a crime. For example, with Kavanaugh no one was there to determine if he was guilty of sexual assault, the question before them was "is this a man we want as a Supreme court justice". There are many people who are "innocent" who I don't want as a Supreme court justice. Being "innocent" is not a qualification for the Supreme court (being guilty could be seen as a disqualification though).

Vote for Kavanaugh for the Supreme Court because he is presumed innocent of sexual assault!

Just doesn't work for me.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

If you review this thread you'll see that Mister Ohio argues for and against the presumption of innocence depending on whether or not the principal advances his extreme right-wing position in a particular context. So he argued for the presumption of innocence in the case of Kavanaugh and argues against it in the case of Andrew Gillum. I agree with you that it is a legal right that applies to the accused in a criminal trial. Neither Kavanaugh nor Gilliam have been charged with criminal offenses so the presumption of innocence is irrelevant to their situations at this time. When Mr Ohio misapplies the principal he is just parroting his idol Donald Trump. You will recall that that kind of mimicry was encouraged in the local church where the idol was Witness Lee. Habits learned by the herd die hard.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I never said this. You don't know what you are talking about. That is pure BS!

Actually your last post enumerated most of my position -- Make the accuser liable, handle accusations privately, require two witnesses, etc.

None of this was done. Just a political hit job, as Clarence Thomas said "a high tech lynching."

Lousy-Ford was not a credible witness, rather a serial liar. She even lied about taking airplane flights. She was so stupid that she had no idea how easily this could be checked. She lied about why she was in counseling, she had two front doors installed long before then.

Democrats on the Senate Committee knew she was a false witness, so they desperately looked for other "victims." Sleazy porn lawyer Avenatti to the rescue! And since useful idiots abound in the Democratic Party, surely they will all believe that Miss Swetnick went back ten times to watch Kavanaugh drug and rape high school girls. Thank God some brave soul finally came forward to expose Kavanaugh! :rollingeyesfrown:

Here is the real situation. Kavanaugh went thru six (then seven) extensive FBI background checks. They found nothing of the sort. ZNP, zeek, and OBW conveniently leave this out. Kavanaugh had a stellar reputation for decades. Every one who knows him is willing to vouch for his integrity. Every person named by Lousy-Ford as a witness had no recollection of her story. No second witness. Caught lying on numerous occasions. No corroborative evidence. No I don't believe her. Kavanaugh maintains the presumption of innocence until evidence him accountable.

Read the book of Job. Read the book in light of the Kavanaugh hearings. Job was accused of sin, hidden sin, by his close friends and that's supposedly why he was under judgment. Read his responses. Not so pretty at times. An innocent man wrongly accused. An innocent man crying out for justice. In the end an innocent man vindicated by God.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Regardless of the standard required for "burden of proof," there is still a standard. Whether criminal or civil court, the accused is still innocent until proven guilty.

Kavanaugh was not entitled to a criminal or civil trial to prove his innocence. No one has demanded that. That is classic straw man defense. His judge, his defense and prosecution attorneys, and his jury was the US Senate, operating under their constitutional duty to advise and consent. The Senate has already made the rules for how nominees will be handled in their Court. Feinstein broke those rules and should be disciplined.

Once society removes the presumption of innocence, we have totalitarian anarchy. If every accusation is to be believed without facts, witnesses, or evidence, what a sad day that will be in America. Communist dictators behaved this way and millions died. How unfortunate that none of the other posters here is able to understand this. What happened to you all?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

This is not true. And you know it. Once again you post deceit.

Gillum is innocent until evidence is presented. If some jerk or political hack comes forward asserting accusations of corruption, without any evidence, then throw the jerk out. If some unknown woman comes forward with 36 year old accusations of abuse, yet no corroborating evidence, then throw her out.

Gillum is a public servant, elected to office by the city of Tallahassee, and should be protected from specious, frivolous claims. Neither should he ever be the victim of slander.

But! It was an undercover FBI agent who was paid off posing as a developer. Gillum used the power of the purse to line his own pockets. But if the charges by the FBI Agent are false, then Gillum can easily prove it. Why did he not do so? He has numerous office staff who could vouch for his whereabouts on the day of the Hamilton show, and staff that could prove actual payment. Why did he not do so.

Why can't zeek know the difference? Because zeek is shipwrecked. He has not held onto faith or a good conscience. (I Tim 1.19) Perhaps Gillum is his idol. "Little children, guard yourselves from idols." (I John 5.20)

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I find it highly partisan that you would be suspicion of "political forces" wishing to undermine Special Prosecutor Muller, but not also suspicious of "political forces" wishing to undermine Kavanaugh, or for that matter, why are you not also suspicious of "political forces" wishing to undermine Trump?

Double standards? Hypocrisy? Political bias?

Or have you carefully weighed all the available facts?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Donald J. Trump
‏
Verified account

@realDonaldTrump
3h3 hours ago
More
Paul Ryan should be focusing on holding the Majority rather than giving his opinions on Birthright Citizenship, something he knows nothing about! Our new Republican Majority will work on this, Closing the Immigration Loopholes and Securing our Border!

Yeah Paul Ryan! I'm just stoking my political base with lies to get them fired up for the mid term election. If your going to be a fuddy duddy and stick to the truth, you need shut up and get out of my way! Bahahaha :hysterical:

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Oh please. I agree that Feinstein's behavior was reprehensible, and that the Democrats bloviating during the hearing was all for political theater and I agree that many of the pundits and comedians have behaved despicably.

That said I do not agree that Kavanaugh should be sainted. He was a teenage basketball player who liked beer and parties. He might have done things that he is now ashamed of. I don't have an issue with Ford. I feel that she was right to send a letter with this complaint if it were true. She was forced to go public because of Feinstein's reprehensible behavior. If this had been handled properly, behind closed doors, it would have been better for everyone involved.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Look if this had been done behind closed doors they would have politely listened to Ford and then confirmed Kavanaugh. Feinstein knew this, so she went public. She did this despite Ford wanting to remain anonymous (closed door hearing) and she did this at the 11th hour is a transparent attempt to delay the confirmation. All of your complaints about how unrighteous this was to Kavanaugh are because of what Feinstein did, not what Ford did.

Once again, the issue was never guilt or innocence, but will you vote to confirm him.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

There is no doubt that the evidence against Gillum based on this witness is much stronger than the evidence against Kavanaugh. No DA would investigate based on Ford's allegations, it would be a joke, likewise the FBI wasn't going to initiate an investigation unless ordered to do so. The fact that the FBI is investigating indicates they have a stronger basis than anything Ford presented. That said, until Gillum is convicted he also deserves the presumption of innocence. On the other hand if Trump's accusations that he is a thief sways some voters, well that is fair.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Why would I be suspicious, it was obvious. I have repeatedly said that Feinstein's behavior was reprehensible. No need for a conspiracy theory, we have proof of political forces attempting to undermine Kavanaugh's confirmation.

As for Trump you obviously have not read my posts. I said a long, long time ago that I work in Brooklyn. Obama is almost considered a saint here. You should have seen the shock and disbelief on the faces when he was attacked. It was as though they thought the attacks on Bush and Clinton were simply due to them being evil white men, but had no idea that a saint would suffer the same attacks. If you want to be president but then are shocked to learn that you will be attacked, criticized, critiqued, and challenged at every turn then you have no business being president. You are too naive for this game. It is like a heavyweight prize fighter being shocked that his opponent would punch him.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Agreed. Sainthood?


The man has lived an exemplary life. He would qualify for elder or deacon using Bible criteria, and that's more than I can say for most.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

You are still too sympathetic to Ford. You should examine her testimony and her history more closely. Check out the activist college she taught at. She was a con. Calling her a victim is too nice.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I don't agree with Gillum's politics but neither do I like the FBI baiting him in a sting operation. I hate this kind of thing. If this is all the FBI has, then it almost looks like they were setting him up. Why was an undercover agent posing as a developer? This is a far cry from normal undercover operations buying drugs from dealers. I'd hate to see anyone convicted for this.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

When was Obama attacked?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Activist is typical response to an experience like the one she described. I see no reason to check it out any more than the FBI did. If there is no evidence to go on other than he said / she said I found her testimony more credible than his denial. But without anything more to go on I see no reason to care anymore.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

If I wasn't living in Brooklyn I wouldn't have the faintest idea. But any comment that was anything less than "glory hallelujah" they took as a vile attack. Kind of like you with any comment I make about Trump.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

That's crazy.

I only comment on the unfair smear campaigns. Check the posts. Lots of stuff I ignore. Believe it or not, I am just trying to educate you on how the rest of America feels.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

So then, we agree.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Shall I say "glory hallelujah"?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Of course, we have just shown the error in Zeek accusing you of "extreme right wing opinions".

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I'm sure zeek will see it as confirmation of the same. ;)

Re: Politics and the Church
 

First, not picking on ZNP here. Just using this one comment to discuss. I see that he is in agreement on part of the following.

I agree that it should be a matter of finding the truth, not making false accusations.

But there is nothing clear about the accusations — true or false. And they are too old to be verified as true or false. So, as much as I believe that Kavenaugh would have the integrity to rule in a truly constitutional manner, I understand that there is enough of a cloud in some people's minds to justify withholding of support. And while we could not convict him (and not suggesting that he could be convicted if there actually was all of the evidence available), to raise to the level of one of the 9 justices of SCOTUS is understandably troubling for some.

And don't forget that failure to convict is different from truly innocent. There was a time when you could legally shoot someone in your yard once they were warned-off and there was any kind of threat perceived. But the legality of it does not leave everyone who shot someone under those conditions OK to serve on the Supreme Court (assuming other qualifications are met). You might never get a conviction. But if BK was considered to have character (at least at some point in his life) that made his guilt questionable, then for this purpose (SCOTUS) it is not unreasonable to withhold approval.

I note that some may argue that he was no longer that foolish kid of decades ago. And I would agree as long as I could verify an actual change in nature. But that does not deny others the right to consider it unacceptable even today.

As for your rant on Sen. Feinstein, I am not unsympathetic to the idea that she was out trying to dig up anything she could. But that does not mean that what she dug up is definitionally tainted. You can't color the veracity of what she found (or claims to have found) solely on the basis of the fact that she wanted to find it and had no desire to find anything to contradict it.

So we are left with mud. And mud slinging. But it is not clear that the mud was not at all warranted. Therefore a different nominee might have been the better course of action. And it might have been better for all involved (including BF and Ford) if the fact of the allegations was brought up privately and the opportunity to decide to bow out was granted without the need for public scrutiny over uncertain allegations.

You seem to want the U.S. government to operate at the standard of a board of elders of the most upright Christian assembly you could find. It isn't going to happen. It is a kingdom of ordinary people with ordinary frailties. And many do not hold to even the pretense of the Christian faith you or I do. Nor the social underpinning of the morality of that faith. Add to that the increasing polarization of the nation, and it is expected that things would go as they did. The Republicans simply refused to even consider back in 2016.

Don't forget that there are many good, upstanding Christians (even evangelical Christians) that voted for Clinton and didn't want Kavenaugh on the Supreme Court.

The ongoing actions and rhetoric of the one who put forward this nomination are such that there should be no expectation that the opposition would not push back with the same kind of vitriol — possibly even the kind of lies — that Trump engages in daily. Having been nominated by Trump would taint even the most qualified candidate (in everyone's mind) just because of the association. I know it's not fair. But then, what is?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I'm beginning to conclude that the only smear campaign is being orchestrated by Trump. It is time to play "Apprentice" with him and declare "you're fired." One term. No more. Maybe less, though I don't see that happening just yet.

And I am a Republican, though the party has been running rapidly into a pit where I cannot follow.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The "mostly" was left out. His life does include the drinking and partying, along with the rather sexist behavior that some of his HS and college friends recalled. Excusable after enough years of otherwise exemplary life? For me, probably. For others, that is their call.

And whether or not Feinstein followed the Senate's rules is still irrelevant in whether the charges were true or false, or should have been considered by anyone as a measure of qualification for a lifetime job on the highest court in the land. (Unless, of course, there is evidence of complicity on her part to conspire to push forward charges that were known to be false.) Don't forget that the "rules" are not determiners of truth, just of procedure. And sometimes rules reflect the desire of those who have the position to make the rules to keep their thumb on those who do not.

I am no fan of Feinstein or any of the recent Democrat leaders in the House or Senate. But I cannot presume that her actions reflected anything more than a desire to ensure that what she found as relevant information made an impact rather than just got buried in back-room strong-arming. It works both ways. If the Republicans do things I like it is "righteous," but when the Democrats do what I don't, it is despicable or illegal, then why do we find it so hard to understand those who see it the other way around? Do we presume that they are not working for the US? That they are enemies of the people and not patriots?

Have we been listening to Limbaugh, Beck, Savage — and even Trump — a little too much?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Probably best not to try to define the source of any of our positions.

I am a third generation Republican (don't have enough information to look beyond that). My Grandfather despised Roosevelt. I remember vaguely that my parents voted for Nixon in '60. But I learned something when I got home from school (in the Oak Cliff part of Dallas) somewhat joyfully declaring that Kennedy had been shot only to learn from my dad that it was not a good thing, and not something to be gleeful about.

Many years later I heard my dad referring to Bush (Sr) as being too liberal. (I have since learned that in his two terms as Congressman from Houston, he voted with Johnson (first term) as much as he did with Nixon (second term).) And several years after when I was listening to Limbaugh as he declared "America Held Hostage" during '93 and '94, I started moving down the rails with them.

But by the time McCain was nominated in 2008, the idea of Palin as VP was not good. McCain later expressed regret on that choice, preferring to have chosen Joe Lieberman. I was not quite there in 2008 (but would have voted for it). But I am now. I am probably a centrist that leans conservative. And since there is no such thing as a conservative Democrat anymore, that means Republican. But that armor has chinked.

It used to be that there was polar rhetoric in elections, but compromise and diligence to do the hard work of legislating. Now the rhetoric never stops and the poles too often are magnets that refuse anything that the ruling party does not want or cannot stop. The last vestiges of those "liberal" Republicans and "conservative" Democrats — like Bush, McCain, Lieberman, etc., are all but gone. (Sounds like something from Star Wars referring to the Republic's Senate in "A New Hope.") It is almost entirely at the poles now.

Voted yesterday. Couldn't vote for anyone who self-declared as Tea Party. So no Ted Cruz. No Kenny Marchant. Still voted for Abbott (governor). I am not "on board" with Beto, but I see someone with the sense to try to find common ground to get things done rather than just die for the party line. It is the sense that he cares about people at least as much as party or ideology that convinced me.

If this was 2020, I would not have voted for Trump. If he remained on the ballot, I would have voted for someone else, or done a write-in (like I did in 2016).

The base meaning of conservatism is the desire to not change. And even if I don't like all the proposals for change out there, not changing is not really an option. Change is a necessity.

And I have changed. About church. About politics. About my neighbor (literal and metaphorical). I live in the world, but also in a different kingdom. But we were left in this world to be salt and light and to love our neighbors as ourselves. In this world, I find that the poles of politics are hard to justify while claiming to love my neighbor as myself. And aligning myself with Trump is one of the most polar things I could possibly do. So I don't. And won't.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Poll: Americans ‘Overwhelmingly’ Believe Obama ‘Improperly Surveilled’ Trump Campaign

Despite the disgraced American media’s best and most cynical efforts to bury the truth, and to even stop the truth from ever seeing the light of day, this poll (and another addressed below) demonstrate that the American people are almost entirely tuning the partisan, mostly-hysterical news media out and looking to alternative media for the truth.

There is simply no other way to explain these poll results, which unambiguously prove that a majority of the public believe the exact opposite of what an unceasing, coordinated media campaign wants them to believe — which is that President Trump colluded with the Russians to win the 2016 campaign and that the heroic FBI is being unfairly smeared by Trump’s eeeevil defenders.

Imagine that! Just what I have been saying for two years!

I doubt if any of the other posters here will admit it though!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I completely disagree. Making Ford's letter pubic was a disservice to Ford and to Kavanaugh. Feinstein had the information for months and sat on it. She could have raised the issue in the closed door sessions, she could have appealed for an FBI investigation then. She could have asked for Ford to come and testify in a closed door session. She could have asked Kavanaugh for his response. In short everything that she ultimately did do she could have done in a closed door session. If the hearing is going to hear any and all accusations regardless of merit and since we know many of those will have a political axe to grind it is prudent to perform this in a closed door session. Now if she felt she had been strong armed and the Republicans had not acted in a responsible way then she still could go public as she did. Since that is her option you would expect the Republicans would act responsibly. You are talking about an allegation that is 36 years old, he said/she said, and about a teenager who is not fully matured. There was no corroborating witness, and there was no subsequent behavior consistent with a sexual abuser. No DA would have ever taken this. Finally, Ford had asked that this be kept confidential -- i.e. closed door. Feinstein's actions were reprehensible and she should be held accountable.

Finally, there was always the possibility that Kavanaugh would be confirmed and become a Supreme court justice. Therefore her behavior has damaged the Supreme court. Hence it was irresponsible.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I could not disagree more. Perhaps a little more study would persuade you too. The more I read about Ford, the more it becomes clear that either she perpetrated a fraud scheme, or she merely went along with it.

Her many lies under oath made this abundantly clear. Initially I was just skeptical of her claims. OK ... let's hear your story. OK ... others were there, let's hear them too. OK ... you need more time because you don't fly? Wait a minute folks! Someone's lying here! Fool us twice, shame on us! Fool us three times, four times, ... ?

For the American people to accept these types of accusations on face value alone is extremely dangerous. The LEFT thus possesses the ultimate political weapon of all time! No conservative candidate, judicial nominee, cabinet appointee, or even my grocery store butcher is thus safe from being victimized. This ultimate weapon can be used to destroy anyone you don't like. Boss turned you down for a raise? Pull out the secret weapon!

Didn't Clarence Thomas say that he would have preferred a noose for his own lynching? Thomas was neither the first or the last to be victimized in this way. (I'm sure someone has put together a list of other victims too.)

Your point seems to be that certain folks would be "troubled" by these accusations, thus "support" for ones like Kavenaugh should be "withheld." Let me remind you that the entire Senate Judicial Committee of the US Senate came out against Trump's selection even before he named Kavanaugh.

I don't know what happened to you OBW, but you seemed to have lost your spine. To do as you suggest, not only borders on insanity, but would end our Constitutional Republic. The Left's orchestrated attack on Kavanaugh was not merely some Feinstein misstep. The best and brightest Progressive legal and political minds in WashDC planned this out. What the Left has never been able to accomplish in Congress, i.e. abortion, gay marriage, affirmative action, for example, they have always relied on the Courts for.

Their next hit job will be even better. I'm sure they are preparing for it even now. If the Senate becomes even stronger Republican, what will the Left do if RBG "gives up the ghost?" They better get their blackmail schemes in order! Perhaps Project Veritas is looking into this as we speak.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I have to be consistent and push back here.

Lies? Vitriol? Trump was framed by the highest levels of our intelligence (Brennan, McCabe, Yates, Comey, Page, Strzok, etc.) Then he pushes back with the same fervency as Kavanaugh -- and what do you do? Condemn them both for over-reacting. The media blistered Trump mercilessly -- provoked him really -- 24/7 for two years, in an attempt to discredit his Presidential election. Russia, Russia, Russia! is all we heard, and now they are quietly trying to make us forget about that. Then endless porn stars were paraded across the stage.

Yeah OBW, "good" Christians liked Clinton too, willing to forget his affairs, consensual or not, bless their heart. Lots of good Christians like Obama too. But it just amazes me just how much Christian "love" is tied to media perceptions of "love." Sounds like the broad way that leads to destruction.

What actually happened on that "Stormy" day we will never know. Obviously she was paid off by Atty. Cohen. Whether it was something all CEO's face, or an actual affair, we will never know. It does appear, however, like justice is beginning to bite Stormy and Avenatti. Little ironic?

Reminds me of how both Bush #41 and #43 were silent on Obama, and then came forward to condemned Trump. They followed the media and violated their own principles -- not to condemn the successive President. Right after that we heard reports of #41 groping the nurses. Not just once but 5 times. Little ironic?

I agree Trump is brash to his opponents. It's a tool at his disposal. Even Beto used his nickname against Cruz. Trump is not the mild-mannered Bush we elected last time. Trump is a fighter, whether I agree with the details or not, I and lots of Americans like me, are looking at the bigger picture and think he is fighting for the right things.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Those who accused him were apparently just alive in the same state in the same decade. None of BK's friends said his partying crossed the line. I'm not buying the line that all basketball stars are sex-crazed abusers. Look at LaBron James. He has always been an example of decent behavior. Some may be bad, but there is no evidence Kavanaugh did anything like he was accused of. Methinks you are watching the wrong news outlet!

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Yes. The mode of releasing the information was a grandstand of the worst kind. But you mistake mode of release for veracity, or lack thereof.

All of the claims of lies you make are without merit. You didn’t like how it played out so she was lying. She didn’t want to come forward so her reluctance proves lying. She doesn’t like to fly, so the delays are evidence of lying. She didn’t make any charge at the time, so she is lying. What a load of manure.

Not now. There is a statute of limitations. You have absolutely no idea about what might have happened then. If it were brought forward at the time, you might never have heard of Brett Kavanaugh. And you may be right that it would never have been filed. But as so often happens in those kinds of cases, the woman is embarrassed that she allowed herself into the situation. She blames herself. And so on. So never files the charge. Never speaks of it to anyone, so no contemporaneous knowledge by anyone else.

Yes, that is a minefield for false accusations later. But it is interesting how many such false accusations are quickly discovered to clearly be false. Not all, but many. Yet this is one of those that only opinions concerning whether current factors are evidence of lying are actually available. They could only assert that BK did not appear to be lying. Probably enough to say that it is not worthy of further consideration (to me). But not sufficient to question whether the circumstances surrounding the environment in which the charges could reasonably be considered possible might themselves disqualify.

I mean, it is not like there are no other highly qualified people to put on SCOTUS. Just move on. But no. It was going to be BK or else. And despite it all, that is what we got. Probably be a good judge. I will just roflmao if he is part of the SCOTUS majority that rules that his executive order to deny citizenship based solely on place of birth is unconstitutional.

You take a poll of the American people as evidence of the truth? Surely you don’t accept the opinion of others as the truth. Or do you?

“Clinton is now leading Trump in the polls.” Well I guess that means I should vote for Hillary!

They shouldn’t allow the use of polls for much of anything. It does not prove truth. It does not provide reasons to vote one way or the other. It just shows where the lead cow is moving so that we can get a mouthful of cud and blindly follow along. MOOOOOOOOOOO!

But to accept everything that Trump says at face value is not? Like declaring the caravan to be murders, rapists, and illegal immigrants. There is no evidence for the first two, and at this point there are no illegal immigrants among them. They have not entered the US at all, therefore are neither immigrants nor illegal. They have been poled by reporters (from both sides, I believe) and all say that they are coming to American to seek asylum. If they do that, they are not illegal unless (und until) their request is denied and they stay in country anyway without being allowed to under other provisions. Asking for asylum is not illegal.

And for all the troops stationed at the border, the law requires that anyone who arrives at a point of entry that requests asylum be allowed to make that request. And until the courts (not a presidential edict) says their request is denied, they are not illegal, therefore, no basis for any action by the military. Maybe we can (and should) keep them somewhat contained near the border so that they can be around when their hearing actually occurs and can then be sent out if denied. But otherwise the show of force along the border is just window dressing for the loyal Trump supporters.

You made some snarky comment about me not having any spine. Your answer is to just make stuff up and build a wall. My response is to enforce existing laws, and work on better ones. Trump blames the Democrats for a lack of improved immigration laws. But the Republicans have controlled the entire process for most of two years and can’t do it. They have abdicated and need to legally work with what we have, not just declare a limited form of martial law and ignore it. The spineless are those who just blame everyone else for the problems while doing nothing constructive themselves. At this point in time, that is the Republican party. They have absolute control and can’t get their thumbs out of their backsides. And I am embarrassed to admit that I am still somewhat labeled by their name.

No. It would only end the banana republic of Trump. This republic is greater than a fight over who is qualified for SCOTUS. Just not being chargeable for a felony is not sufficient. Even being a fine upstanding citizen for years is not. If I assume that you have been just such upstanding citizen (and I have no reason to think otherwise) I still would not likely think you qualified for the Supreme Court. At the same time, just because you got through law school and even got a seat on an important Federal court bench does not make you the best choice. While it might be enough to say that there is no evidence in your rulings that you have a leaning toward positions that are inconsistent with the Constitution, it might also be relevant to consider the kind of depth with which you researched and wrote when you ruled and how fully you considered all factors. There is a lot to it. Just being someone that anyone wants to be on the court that has had a significant judgeship previously and lived a good life is not necessarily sufficient. So if it is hard to make a decision, then a weak charge against someone who was more than once drunk when under age for drinking, and was later described by someone who appears to have had basis for opining, that he was a “mean drunk” could be relevant. Not chargeable. But relevant. And all your personal bases for determining the charges to be false do nor rise to the level of proof, therefore not sufficient to rail upon anyone for giving them at least some weight.

You are correct that the proper way to dispose of it would have been quietly, behind closed doors. At that point it would have been easier to just declare that it wasn’t worth the trouble and withdraw from consideration. No actual harm to reputation. But Feinstein made the charge public rather than behind closed doors. That was poor in terms of going against the wishes of the one who made the charge known to her. And it is against in-house rules in terms of the Senate. None of them are prosecutable. Even if she should be censured in some form, it does not detract from the veracity of at least part of what came forward, and does not make any of it incorrect or a lie.

You do realize that with the possibility that the Senate could become Majority Democrat next year (slim chance, but still a chance), the Democrats as minority are not really much more dishonorable than the Republicans who simply refused to consider anyone until they at least were forced by a different Democrat president (2 years ago). The tools may have been more troubling in the present case, but the actions in both cases were equally troubling.

As claimed by Trump and his supporters, and supported by writings of conspiracy theorists. No real proof. And his actions since have given a lot of reason to believe anything that might be found. His brown-facing (got more than his nose involved) with Putin in Moscow was reprehensible. If my opinion was worth anything, he would have been jailed for treason. While I don’t think highly of Pence anymore, I do believe he would actually undertake the office of the President with the kind of demeanor it should require. But I’d take Kasich in 2020 in a heartbeat.

You confuse disagreement on politics with disagreement on the actual execution of the job. The speaking out against Trump is not about his political positions. It is about his lies and demeanor. And they are too numerous. How do you tell he is lying? His lips are moving while not reading the teleprompter. And when it is on twitter.

I don’t like Obama’s politics. But I do not think he is anything like the reprehensible character that Trump is. I think that some of Trump’s proposed policies might be good. But it would be much better if someone of character were the one proposing them. I applaud all Republicans who have the backbone to stand up against the bully that currently holds the office of President.

Keep shoveling manure. If they think the stink is from the manure, they may miss the dead body it is covering.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

A wall, a pidgin, a snake, the Messiah, and the end days :

Biblical prophecy COMES TRUE as live snake wriggles out of Israel’s Western Wall

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/wei...l-western-wall

Re: Politics and the Church
 

For the American people to accept these types of accusations against Kavanaugh on face value alone is extremely dangerous.

Nice switch, but I'll respond here.

Trump has 80% of the media against him, so no one takes anything at "face value." You hate our Prez, and I get that, but I would like to think someone like you could look behind the curtain to get some facts.

Trump never said that every migrant in the caravan is a murderer and a rapist. That is pure BS you are regurgitating from the media. Have you also read about who is sponsoring these caravans? What is the demographic composition of the caravan? The violence inflicted upon the communities in their path? The violent outbreaks with the police? The child smuggling? The drug cartels? The incidence of rape and abuse along the way? Obviously not reported by your media sources.

Seeking asylum? There may be some, sure. But they must do that legally. Mexico offered this to them, but most turned it down. That should make all fair-minded people wonder.

Like I always say -- your views depend on the source of your news. Better get that right. Mainstream media no longer reports actual news, rather they are like the serpent in the garden sowing seeds of suspicion with every report. Otherwise you will believe that Trump colluded with the Russians and caused that Trump-hating murderer to shoot up the Synagogue.

Have you forgotten that the god of this age has blinded the minds of the many?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

How much of the media seems to (or is) against him is really not a cause for lying. But for Trump, it makes him want to double-down and talk about how to simply shut them up.

As for the caravan, Trump is intentionally vague. But the verbiage is intended to imply that it is some significant part, not just somerun-of-the-mill number. Just like his declaration that 63,000 of the people in prison are illegal aliens who have committed heinous crimes.

That claim has been fully debunked. It has actually been demonstrated that there is less crime among new immigrants — legal or illegal — than the general population and that it starts moving toward the mainstream stats in the second generation.

The 63,000 is a general number of non-US citizen incarcerations (without reference to legal/illegal status). And it ignores that of the illegals there, the majority have simply committed the crime (a felony) of being in the U.S. illegally. While still a crime, it makes a lie of trying to imply that the percentage of citizens in prison for murder, rapes, etc., applies to the whole of the illegal aliens.

As for our little disagreement here, I have no problem with the bare fact that you support Trump. I don't. You haven't lowered yourself to "ignorant" status in my eyes. But you ask whether I am being critical in my thinking. I can assure that I am. Long before Trump and the current fiasco (in my eyes), there has been a march toward madness in the rhetoric of the people who speak the loudest about the positions that I generally support. Now I must say that I do not hold them as strongly or extremely as is expected of a "good" Republican. Sanity prevailed when someone definitely on the conservative side of the center could co-author a bill with Ted Kennedy. Now having a Republican as near the center as McCain (God rest his soul) working with a Democrat as near the center as Lieberman is generally anathema for a Republican. And probably the same for the Democrat. And the result is deadlock and venom. From both sides. But right now, while the rhetoric from both sides is too strong, I see the hollow claim of truth in what is coming from the "right" and it is sickening. Trump is as didactically false as was Lee. All he has to do is say it and it is heralded by his loyal parrots from the FTT in DC.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Trump and Lee? One personality cult leader is as good as another.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Really? Please show me the post where I said any of this? You have confused me with Ohio.

I was not speaking about hypotheticals as to what might have been. I was pointing out that no DA would act on these claims today, when Feinstein got them. She knew this. She knew he had gone through 6 FBI background checks. She knew that the only value this would have is if she used it at the 11th hour to delay the confirmation. You have obviously not read all of my posts on this topic. I have made it very clear that there is a lot of evidence that the police can find to help verify these claims if they are made in a timely manner.

Are you talking about your own false accusations? 1. I have never once said that I thought Ford was lying. 2. I have never once mentioned or responded to her not wanting to fly. 3. I have never once said that her not making a charge 36 years ago should be a basis to think she is now lying. 4. I have never said that a DA would not have responded to her claim had she made it 36 years ago. Those are 4 accusations made by you in just a paragraph or two, all of which can easily be verified as false by looking at my posts.


No I didn't. This is another false accusation. Is anything in this post true or is it all lies? Once again you are referring to a Post by Ohio, not me.

The only response I'm interested in is an apology.

Really? Please direct me to the post where I am confused on this? Once again you are the one who has confused me for Ohio.

In the future do not delete the name of the person you are posting. You mingled quotes from me and Ohio, deleted the names, and pretended we were the same person. This is not a simple task to delete the name in each quote and had to have been done intentionally.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The Story of Robert Mueller and Whitey Bulger

Back in 1976, as we were celebrating the 200th birthday of this republic, Congress passed a law limiting the tenure of the FBI director to 10 years. This was done because, after the scandalous findings of the Church Commission, Congress realized that letting J. Edgar Hoover serve as director of the bureau from its founding in 1935 until his death in 1972 had only confirmed Lord Acton’s maxim that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Hoover was a power unto himself, and the FBI that was created very much in his image sometimes acted more like the secret police of the totalitarian regimes Hoover regularly denounced: running rogue wiretaps, harassing political dissidents, using illegal means to collect evidence. Hoover’s FBI wasn’t accountable; it was untouchable.

So now, just weeks after the FBI’s worst nightmare, a gangster and FBI informant by the name of Whitey Bulger came strolling back into town, Congress is about to ignore its own wisdom and let Bob Mueller, the FBI director and former US Attorney in Boston, stay on an extra two years. President Obama says he needs Mueller to stay because there’s been so much turnover in the national security teams at the CIA and Pentagon, and that’s all well and good.

Mueller has wide, bipartisan support in Congress. To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, I know Bob Mueller and he’s no J. Edgar Hoover, though the folks at the ACLU might take exception to that. The recent FBI targeting of antiwar and labor activists in the Midwest has a disturbing echo of the days when the bureau considered Martin Luther King Jr. a sinister threat to national security. But Mueller’s a Marine veteran and tough enough to take a question or two before Congress gives the president what he wants, and Mike Albano is just the guy to ask it: What did you know about Whitey Bulger, and when did you know it.

Back in the 1980s, when he was serving on the Massachusetts parole board, Albano expressed some sympathy for a group of men who had always maintained they had been framed for the 1965 gangland murder of a hoodlum named Teddy Deegan in Chelsea. The FBI had been instrumental in seeing that the men - Peter Limone, Henry Tameleo, Joe Salvati, and Louis Greco - were convicted. The FBI contended that Tameleo was the consigliere of the Mafia in Boston, and that Limone was a Mafia leader. There is no question that both men were bad actors, and Mafia players, but the evidence showed that neither had anything to do Deegan’s murder. So in 1983, after Albano indicated he might vote to release Limone, he got a visit from a pair of FBI agents named John Connolly and John Morris. They told Albano that the men convicted of Deegan’s murder were bad guys, made guys.

"They told me that if I wanted to stay in public life, I shouldn’t vote to release a guy like Limone,’’ Albano said. “They intimidated me.’’ Turns out that Connolly was Whitey Bulger’s corrupt handler and Morris was Connolly’s corrupt supervisor. When they weren’t pocketing bribes from Bulger, they were helping him murder potential witnesses who were poised to expose the FBI’s sordid, Faustian deal with the rat named Whitey Bulger.

Albano was messing with the FBI’s national policy of going after the Mafia and the Mafia alone. That was the justification the FBI gave for making deals with devils like Whitey Bulger and his partner in crime, Stevie Flemmi. They were supposedly giving up their pals in the Mafia. The problem with the FBI’s national policy is that it didn’t take into account that the most vicious, murderous gangsters in Boston were Whitey Bulger and Stevie Flemmi.

After Albano was elected mayor of Springfield in 1995, he soon found the FBI hot on his tail, investigating his administration for corruption. The FBI took down several people in his administration, and Albano is convinced that the FBI wasn’t interested in public integrity as much as in publicly humiliating him because he dared to defy them.

In 2001, the four men convicted of Teddy Deegan’s murder were exonerated. Turned out the FBI let them take the rap to protect one of their informants, a killer named Vincent “Jimmy’’ Flemmi, who just happened to be the brother of their other rat, Stevie Flemmi. Thanks to the FBI’s corruption, taxpayers got stuck with the $100 million bill for compensating the framed men, two of whom, Greco and Tameleo, died in prison.

Albano was appalled that, later that same year, Robert Mueller was appointed FBI director, because it was Mueller, first as an assistant US attorney then as the acting US attorney in Boston, who wrote letters to the parole and pardons board throughout the 1980s opposing clemency for the four men framed by FBI lies.

Of course, Mueller was also in that position while Whitey Bulger was helping the FBI cart off his criminal competitors even as he buried bodies in shallow graves along the Neponset. “Before he gets that extension,’’ Mike Albano said, “somebody in the Senate or House needs to ask him why the US Attorney’s office he led let the FBI protect Whitey Bulger.’’

I called FBI headquarters in Washington and tried to do just that. The nice lady who answered suggested I talk to one of the FBI’s “public affairs specialists.’’ But my call was not returned.

Four years ago, when questioned about the FBI’s corruption in Boston, Mueller told the Globe, “I think the public should recognize that what happened, happened years ago.’’ That’s true. And we still don’t know what really happened

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Brett Kavanaugh Rape Accuser Admits She Made Up Her Story
What's with these radical Lefties from Kentucky?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

God’s Red Army

The Republican Party hopes to beat back the Democrats on Tuesday with a big push from the Christian right.

“If we do our jobs,” Ralph Reed of the Faith & Freedom Coalition boasted at the Values Voters Summit in September, “they are going to be more shocked than they were the last time.”

The Christian nationalist turnout machine relies heavily on an extensive network of conservative pastors.

J.C. Church, Watchmen on the Wall’s national director of ministry engagement and a founder of the Ohio-focused get-out-the-vote initiative Awake88, said, “the No. 1 thing” anybody can give you is “the supreme Christ.” But “the second greatest thing we can give this generation,” he swiftly added, “is the Supreme Court. We can build a firewall for our children and grandchildren that they just might scale the seven mountains of influence.”

“Seven mountains” alludes to an aspect of Christian dominionist ideology, according to which God has commanded true Christians to gain control of seven areas of civilization — including government, business, education and the media.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/02/o...d=165251391103

Re: Politics and the Church
 

They vote McConnell in over and over again, and for McCain/Palin, and for Trump. Yeah, what's with these lefties here?

We're so crazy left here that we've got the Creation Museum, and the Ark of Noah ... and the Flintstone's riding dinosaurs. Crazy lefties.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The Devil's Blue Army

Hopes to advance His many causes of atheism, abortion murders, suppression of free speech, totalitarian socialism, identity politics, anarchist protests, politically correct speech, activist judges, gay and transgender education for public schools, suppression of conservative ideals, condemnation of Republican elected officials, smear campaign against Trump, Mueller's attempts to frame the Presidemt, Pelosi's impeachment campaign, etc.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

That's for sure. It's not even safe to cut your Kentucky blue grass any more.

Ask Rand. His wife has to sleep with a loaded gun nearby.

But that's the Left's strategy. Since all their policies are disastrous, they must resort to fear mongering the right into submission. Sounds a little like Mel Porter.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

You think people who don't agree with your opinions are of the Devil. No wonder Right-wingers think they're justified to send us bombs in the mail and shoot us in our synagogues and churches. After all they're just slaying the "Devil's Blue Army".

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Hold on there. Get your facts straight.

Wasn't it a left-wing anti-semite who shot up that synagogue? Wasn't it a left-wing socialist who shot up that Congressional game? Isn't it those left-wing crazies who use social media to target conservatives in restaurants in every city.

So let me ask zeek, is atheism of God or the Devil?

Is abortion of God or the Devil?

Are threats of violence in public places of God or the Devil?

Is gay and transgender sex education in preschools of God or the Devil?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

And this is why the US is destined to be a house divided and cannot stand.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Once again you expose yourself with your devil talk thus providing more evidence in support of my last post:

You think people who don't agree with your opinions are of the Devil. No wonder Right-wingers think they're justified to send us bombs in the mail and shoot us in our synagogues and churches. After all they're just slaying the "Devil's Blue Army".

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Yeah. I don't think labeling people as "the Devil's Blue Army" helps, do you?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Both the House and the Senate have always been divided.

And I don't think these bogus "principles" are going to work on conservatives any more, not after we witnessed the vicious evil inflicted on the Kavanaugh family by your people.

Does mocking conservative's as "God’s Red Army" help?

I'd say that it's better to know what one stands for.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

I think the idea of a constitution with "freedom of religion" is doomed to failure. The questions that Ohio asked make that clear.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Who are my people? Why do you accuse "my people" of inflicting evil on the Kavanaugh family?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

"Journalists." Don't you come from a family of journalists? Don't I get to generalize judgments like the rest of you guys?

Didn't journalists blame Trump for the Synagogue murders and the pipebomber? You know MAGA bomber! I saw endless journalists chime in on Trump's danger to society.

Don't you see how the game is played? Perhaps you need to learn from zeek and our MOTA.


Don't get offended, I'm just learning how to ditch common sense reason and play the Left's games.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Yes, I come from a family of journalists.

No. The minute you do what you are condemning you condemn yourself.

Why would I learn from them? I learned from my parents that credibility is everything to a journalist. The minute you trade it in to be a mouthpiece pushing someone's agenda is the minute you are no longer a reputable journalist.

You are learning to imitate the evil, not the good. You are ditching the apostle's fellowship *that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

If you forsake that fellowship you also forsake the blessing -- to make our name great. You can't put on the New Man if you are playing an evil game.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

On Friday 11/02/2018 in Tallahassee a gunman shot a group of people a yoga studio, killing a physician and a university student and injuring five others before killing himself. The killer was a far-right extremist and self-proclaimed misogynist who railed against women, black people, and immigrants in a series of online videos and songs. He had a history of sexually assaulting women. My community is in shock and mourning. https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...103-story.html

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Anguished by ‘Spiral of Hate,’ Charleston Pastor and Pittsburgh Rabbi Grieve as One

The killings of nine parishioners at a black church in Charleston and 11 congregants at a synagogue in Pittsburgh brought people in those two communities together in an unspeakable grief.

“This incident, like at Emanuel, was not an attack on a particular group,” the rabbi said at the close of the meeting. “It was an attack on America because it challenges our right to assemble and worship our God in the way we want. It has continued a downward spiral of hate, one that’s prevalent in all corners of the United States.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/03/u...d=165251391104

Re: Politics and the Church
 

You left out that this murderer also hated and ranted against police officers.

Mayor Gillum also has an anti-police stance.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Don Lemon got it right. "The Biggest Terror Threat In This Country Is White Men"

"So, we have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them. There is no travel ban on them. There is no ban on -- you know, they had the Muslim ban. There is no white guy ban,"

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Oh, the irony.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

American Jews have been politically divided for decades, and it has little to do with Trump. They are also divided over Netanyahu, the State of Israel, and the need for rebuilding the Temple

The Jewish left botched its response to the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting

This brazen attempt to blame Jewish backers of the president for the attack and excommunicate them from their community is scandalous. It is also a dog whistle for animosity toward more traditionalist Jews, who constitute one of the most pro-Trump demographics in the country (indeed several serve as high-ranking officials in the administration).

Such sentiments reveal what underlies the entire liberal Jewish response to Pittsburgh: For them, Judaism is synonymous with liberalism. Donald Trump is cast as an enemy of the Jews not because he has shown any hostility to the Jewish people or the Jewish State (quite the contrary) but because he is an enemy of liberalism. The same goes for his “Jewish enablers,” who have allegedly betrayed their community by backing him.

As it happens, Trump has done more than any other president to prevent attacks on Jews, including by cutting funds to the Palestinian Authority. This courageous decision thwarts its pay-to-slay policy of issuing financial reward to terrorist murderers of Jews. But no matter. The Jewish social-justice chorale serves at the altar of liberalism and Trump is their Antichrist (just as, lest we forget, George W. Bush was before him).

Degrading Judaism to advance their petty politics, as the Jewish social justice movement has always done, is insulting enough. Using Pittsburgh’s dead to do so is altogether grotesque.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Then why do you think Don Lemon would have a White boyfriend? :rollingeyesfrown:

There is nothing "right" about Lemon. He is "wrong" and "left" about everything.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

More Leftist hypocrisy.

Suspect in Vandalism Attack on New York Synagogue Is Democrat Activist

James Polite?, the 26-year-old man who was arrested Friday for allegedly vandalizing a synagogue in Brooklyn Thursday, is a Democratic activist who once worked for New York City Council Speaker Christine Quinn, and also volunteered for Barack Obama.

Mr. Polite was arrested on Friday and charged with criminal mischief as a hate crime for writing “Die Jew Rats,” “Hitler,” “End It Now” and “Jew Better Be Ready” in marker on walls of the Union Temple of Brooklyn.

Mr. Polite was charged with arson, reckless endangerment and criminal mischief — all as hate crimes — for setting fires at four other locations affiliated with the Jewish community, including another school. The police recognized Mr. Polite from the surveillance video at Union Temple.

The synagogue had been scheduled to host a Democratic Party event. The Daily Caller notes that Democrats, including New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, had used the vandalism in political messages — until the arrest. Oops! [Ed.]

In a further irony, the Daily Caller notes, Polite worked for Quinn on hate crime issues. She issued a statement on Saturday, noting that she was “simply and utterly devastated,” and suggesting that Polite suffered from mental health issues. (He was taken to a psychiatric ward after his arrest for evaluation.) He interned with Ms. Quinn, a Manhattan Democrat, for several years, working on initiatives to combat hate crime, sexual assault and domestic violence.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Senate Judiciary Committee Releasees Full Brett Kavanaugh Report: ‘No Evidence’ of Sexual Misconduct

After an extensive investigation that included the thorough review of all potentially credible evidence submitted and interviews of more than 40 individuals with information relating to the allegations, including classmates and friends of all those involved, Committee investigators found no witness who could provide any verifiable evidence to support any of the allegations brought against Justice Kavanaugh. In other words, following the separate and extensive investigations by both the Committee and the FBI, there was no evidence to substantiate any of the claims of sexual assault made against Justice Kavanaugh.

But, sorry to say, there will always be those who believe lies, especially the really big ones.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Ohio said:

The great US columnist Charles Krauthammer once noted this truth about contemporary political life in America: ‘To understand the workings of American politics you have to understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil.’

You proved Krauthammer was wrong. You who consider yourself "conservative" seem to think liberals belong to the evil-one himself. As you stated:

"The Devil's Blue Army -- Hopes to advance His many causes of atheism, abortion murders, suppression of free speech, totalitarian socialism, identity politics, anarchist protests, politically correct speech, activist judges, gay and transgender education for public schools, suppression of conservative ideals, condemnation of Republican elected officials, smear campaign against Trump, Mueller's attempts to frame the Presidemt, Pelosi's impeachment campaign, etc."

Krauthammer said conservatives thought liberals were merely stupid. You imply liberals are not only stupid, but so evil that they are "the devil's---"the Devil's Blue Army". In your viewpoint I think I see echoes of Witness Lee who declared that Judaism was Satanic.

As we have pointed out, the third line of the enemy is the degradation of the churches. The churches themselves are not the enemies, but the degradation, the degraded situation, the degraded condition, of the churches has become a real enemy to us. In overcoming the degradation of the churches, we need to overcome three “isms”—satanic Judaism (2:9-10), demonic Catholicism (vv. 24-28), and dead and Christless Protestantism (3:1-5, 20-21). The God-men, a book composed of messages given by Witness Lee in Anaheim, California, on May 26 through 29, 1995.

This kind of devil talk is troubling. Isn't this the kind of hate speech used to justify violence against people considered Satanic?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

The Bible is filled with "devil talk" you should read it.

My comment about "the Devil's Blue Army" was in response to your mocking God and His "red army."

If you read my post, you will see that I listed activities which were the work of the devil. I did not call anyone names. Do you acknowledge abortion as murder, and the work of the devil? Obviously not, because you can't even be sure if there is a God. With such "assurance" in your belief system, do you even believe there is a devil?

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Armed Black Panthers Lobby for Democrat Gubernatorial Candidate Stacey Abrams

https://media.breitbart.com/media/20...ge-640x480.jpg

It’s no surprise that militant Black Panthers are armed and patrolling the streets of Georgia for Stacey Abrams. The Black Panthers are a radical hate group with a racist and anti-semitic agenda. They are dangerous and encourage violence against our men and women in uniform. Stacey Abrams should immediately denounce the Black Panthers and their hateful record of racism. She should stand against and condemn their attempts to intimidate hardworking Georgia voters just days before the election.

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Picture is worth a million fake news stories ...


https://www.citizenfreepress.com/wp-...w-1024x611.jpg

Re: Politics and the Church
 

But Trump just admitted that Russia stole the election for him :

"Rumor has it that Senator Joe Donnelly of Indiana is paying for Facebook ads for his so-called opponent on the libertarian ticket. Donnelly is trying to steal the election? Isn’t that what Russia did!?

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 3, 2018"

Re: Politics and the Church
 

Much of the current political debates taking place are lacking any depth of understanding, as a result we have people screaming at each other with a huge gulf between them simply because they are clueless about what is going on.

For example, these refugees coming towards the US.

The people who are making this out to be a great threat are not stupid people, nor are they ignorant of the facts. Assuming either is foolish. Likewise, if you think they are using this as a way to inspire people with fear you still haven’t explained what is going on, so that is a superficial explanation.

50 years ago there was sufficient evidence to realize our consumption of fossil fuel was not sustainable. Between Peak oil and Climate change this was a grave national security threat to the US. Carter convened a meeting of oil men at the Whitehouse. He wanted to make alternative energy sources a national goal. He was “shot down”. So instead we fought two Gulf Wars. Bush suckered Sadam into attacking Kuwait so that we could put our military in control of Iraq’s oil field, the biggest natural reserves of oil outside of Saudi Arabia. 911 was an inside job designed to act as a catalyst so that the US could blow up the military budget converting to drones, robots, AI, etc. It was also used so that we could secure gas fields in Tajikistan and strengthen our hand in Iraq.

Now you might think these people are idiots, don’t you realize what Climate change is going to do? Well, obviously they do. There have been several Pentagon reports done. One thing that has become clear is they realize there will be millions of climate refugees. Europe was put into great turmoil from climate refugees in the last few years, likewise the US is concerned about our Southern border. Why have gangs all of a sudden become such a threat to these countries?

The problem isn’t that they are stupid, or ignorant. The problem is they have chosen a path that preserves their status, wealth and power at all costs. Are they psychopaths? Apparently. This has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats. Obama did nothing. Clinton did nothing. It is about money controlling politicians.

This is by far the biggest threat to the US and the world. Countries will fall like dominoes. Yet what is the media screaming about? Mueller, Stacey Abrams, Cohen, Avenati, Kavanaugh's high school parties from 36 years ago,...