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Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 02-04-2024 08:58 AM | |||
| Jay |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
I'm wondering if his rebellion is similar to Bill Freeman's rebellion in Moses Lake. We were always told it was because of ambition for position and because these big brothers were rebels and they were running their locality independently of LSM (but I thought each locality has its own autonomy?). Maybe it was for position and power, but also maybe they smelled blood in the water due to Lee's major failures. Similar to how king David's monarchy was thrown into chaos after his major sins, and how his trusted men who were by his side in war had turned on him after his major failures. But then also it makes you wonder why was Lee ever in that position in the first place? Why was he in the position of a king and why was he treated like a king in all the churches? I think he just reveled in the glory of that position and he really didn't do much that I saw to quell it. I mean compare that to Paul's life or Jesus's life. They were always suffering, always on the move, never seeking celebrity status, never reveling in their accomplishments, never boasting from pride or the flesh, always seeking out the lowly, always helping and healing, always ready to live Christ and spread the gospel, always humble and lowly in their demeanor and actions, and actively shooting down any attempts to crown them by their followers. Yet we see pretty much practically the opposite behavior with how the LC revers and uplifts Nee and Lee Granted Lee was the benefactor of the LC and he was the sole owner of the LSM business, and he was the founder probably of every church in the Philippines and the U.S. But I've heard him say in his own books "The churches don't belong to me, they belong to the Lord." Just seems like a lot of duplicity and say one thing do another type behavior I remember Ed Marks told a story once about one time when he went to brother Lee's house and somehow the conversation between he and Lee ended up in Ed saying something along the lines of "We aren't the right type of people," and Lee saying "If we were the right people the Lord would be back already." Which knowing what I know now absolutely hits differently then it did then |
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| 02-04-2024 05:52 AM | |||
| ACuriousFellow |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
The vibe that I'm getting is that Titus Chu was good with organizing his assembly in a practical manner and with brutal efficiency, much like Lee was, but that he was only rainbows and sunshine so long as he felt you were under his thumb, which once again mirrors Lee's general behavior. Otherwise, he would take a huge dump on you in front of the assembly, which, yet again, shows the training he received from Lee. This is not the kind of man I would call "respectful," even if he seems nice and fair to others when he's not at the pulpit. At best, from what I have seen of your testimony and that of a few others who have come from the Local Churches in the Ohio area, I would say he is selectively respectful to others when it suits him. Perhaps there is an important distinction to be made here between an effective leader and a good leader. |
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| 02-04-2024 01:32 AM | |||
| Ohio |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
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| 02-03-2024 10:10 PM | |||
| TheStarswillFall |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
It is altogether clear that TC is cut from the same mould as WL and his chronies. These "Deputy Authorities" are not servants of men for Christ's sake - they pervert the truth by seeking a following among the Lord's people (Acts 20:30). Did the Lord not say "by their fruit you will know them" ? |
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| 02-03-2024 05:01 AM | |||
| Ohio |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
I have much more respect for TC, his teaching and character, but not the way he treats other brothers. Authority has gone to his head. Over the years I had migrated twice to start new LC’s in new cities. Then I would watch how TC would beat up our elders, thru public shaming and humiliation, in order to bring them under absolute submission. Supposedly this practice, part of the so-called “recovery” handed down by Barber, Née, and Lee, was a scriptural pattern, yet not one verse supports this. Every brother was expendable except for TC. I also was subject to abuses on a local level. I may have stayed if any of these three (national, regional, local) was upright, and treated people respectfully as servants of the Lord. |
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| 02-03-2024 04:44 AM | |||
| TheStarswillFall |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
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| 02-03-2024 12:41 AM | |||
| Jay |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
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| 10-07-2019 11:25 AM | |||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
 So while I've resisted calling the LC a cult, I am coming to that realization more these days. This is because it just ticks off so many of the boxes of a cult. At the very least, I would say it's "cult like" in many attributes. And, pursuant to the thread topic of "leaving without making a scene," that's why this person even has to ask this question! Sure, even leaving an established denomination may be a little tricky, especially if a lot of roots with friends and family are there. But the LC takes this to another level with its brand of exclusivity (I keep thinking of the Amish here . . .)! |
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| 10-07-2019 09:41 AM | |||
| awareness |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
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| 10-07-2019 08:01 AM | |||
| Unregistered |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
Dear sister, May the Lord bless you and your husband. Now, if you truly believe that the Lord is calling you out of the LC (according to your feeling), then perhaps you need to gain a wider perspective on what it is that the Lord is doing in your lives. This may need you to transcend your variable feelings and weigh any possible subsequent actions you may take against the immutable Word of God. You may have noticed that I have capitalized some key phrases from your post that I think you should pay extra special attention to as I recommend some verses from the Bible that I believe might lend fresh lenses to the situation you are going through. I pray that you will be inspired and encouraged, and that the Lord will be able to whisper His ACTUAL will in your hearts and that you will be reassured that He is with you and will hold your hand every step of the way. I can tell you from experience that if it is indeed the Lord's will that you part ways with that 'system' and you finally do leave, the concerns you have outlined above will pale in comparison to the true challenges you will find you will face. For one, if you have spent any considerable length of time sitting at the feet of this 'ministry' you will quickly realize that there are 'running programmes' implanted deep in your psyche, and of which you may be quite unconscious, that will involuntarily lend you an unwelcome air and attitude of superiority. You will fight this, of course. But soon you discover it is no mere superficial thing, but an integral part of your spiritual make-up. And at this point is where the Lord, if you are open to Him, will begin to really work in you from the very core of your being. There is no telling how the Lord will accomplish this in each and every individual; but drastic measures may have to be deployed, tough lessons delivered, uncomfortable circumstances orchestrated, and helping after helping after helping of Humble Pie....until you reach a point where all you will desire in relation to the Lord and the things of the Lord -including the church - will be only to know Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. By my own experience this can be a long and drawn out process that may take years and years (many on this forum can testify) and years to bear fruit and to bring you to a point where you find you are fully unshackled from the subtle and insidious influence of the LC 'system'. You will eventually see, by the Lord's mercy, the difference between a faith that stands upon the power of God and actually demonstrates the Spirit, and a so-called faith that stands only on excellency of speech, enticing words, coined terms, and purportedly divine and mystical language, all resting ultimately on the culture and wisdom of men. The Lord will do this. Just stick with Him. Against this backdrop please read the passages of Scripture below and allow the Lord to speak to you and your husband's heart as He leads you on this road. These scriptures offer BLESSINGS and REWARDS beyond description! ! ! Proverbs 29:25 Matthew 5:11 Luke 6: 22-23 Grace to you! |
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| 09-25-2019 05:33 PM | |||
| OBW |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
Doesn't seem very spiritual. But neither does driving the speed limit. But I can assure you that everything you do in your life is "spiritual" if it is done wth the mind set on the Spirit. (not on our "human spirit") And you don't need to pray about it. I'm fairly confident that if you could hear the Father listening to a prayer about whether to obey the speed limit, he would be saying something like "are you kidding? . . . of course!" (Of course it's a good idea!) When you find that you have been befuddled about spiritual things that permeates all aspects of your life, figuring out what is the speaking of God v just the tapes of the errors running in your head will be daunting. I am not saying don't pray. But if you have a sense of a problem and a need to go, pray as you leave. Just do it. If you discovered that there was a serious contaminant in your drinking water, you wouldn't wait for a confirmation from God to stop using/drinking it. You would act. If you must get some kind of confirmation, it might be wise to consider challenging God to put up obvious roadblocks, without which you will simply be acting. And don't presume that a phone call from someone is a roadblock. It needs to be mighty. Almost supernatural. Make God take a stand if he wants you to stay. |
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| 09-25-2019 01:50 PM | |||
| Barnabas |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
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| 09-23-2019 02:09 PM | |||
| Freedom |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
In my case, LC people wouldn't respect the boundaries that I had attempted to set. At first, I had wanted to try to reason with them about why I felt to set certain boundaries. It occurred to me that would likely do very little good and could even serve to provide them the very platform that they crave. By simply leaving, it sends them the message that the matter isn't open for discussion. |
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| 09-23-2019 01:27 PM | |||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
Genuine fear of the Lord is not confusing, but rather leads us to Him. Any other fear is debilitating and discouraging and is not of Him. Keep seeking Him and to hear His voice, and the other thing will recede. And my testimony is that when I began to really see the love He has for us, the other thing became clear for what it is. |
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| 09-21-2019 11:21 AM | |||
| OBW |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? kumbaya kind of has it right. Just stop going. And assuming you still have a spiritual interest, find another group to meet with. Even figure the first move out before you take the plunge. Just quit attending. Don't be rude, but don't feel obligated to give a reason. They will have an answer for everything, though not a meaningful one. You don't need to have that discussion until you are ready, if ever. |
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| 09-14-2019 08:06 AM | |||
| Hannah |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Fellow church kid here too, you are not alone in wondering if you will find fellowship, group of believers to connect with, or life outside of the LC. Connecting with those who left and continued in their faith can be so helpful in your journey. This tactic, if you will, of the LC to instill fear about degraded Christianity, a lack of depth, etc is one of my biggest issues with the LC because it discourages people to follow their own spirit and keeps so many entrapped!! There is freedom, life, deep connection, and a world of Godly love and living outside of the LC. I happy to connect on a more personal level, feel free to connect through LCD or if you are on FB. There are more of us!! Love to you on your journey |
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| 09-13-2019 08:48 PM | |||
| Nell |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? How do you leave (the LC) without making a scene? I don’t know that you can. Here’s a question: what other Christian church or churches require that you surrender your freedom to walk with the Lord where ever he may lead...including walk away from a Christian church? How did you get yourself in this position in the first place, that you need to ask “how do I leave?” We all did it. We all freely committed ourselves, consecrated ourselves, to Christ and the church, and we made other vows and oaths to the ministry of Witness Lee. We thought we were following the Lord and giving ourselves, heart, soul and mind, to Jesus. Yet, here are some verses on that topic. Matt. 5:33-37 33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of [m]old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let [n]your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. One of the first things I did after leaving was to renounce all commitments... anything that could possibly be construed as an oath...to “Christ and the church” because that was an oath to the ministry of Witness Lee. Do not swear at all! As far as the “without making a scene” part, that’s not likely something you can control. If a scene is made, don’t let it be made by you. Just walk away. Let your Yes be Yes and your No, No. Nell |
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| 09-13-2019 08:34 PM | |||
| NoFearInLove |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Hi everyone, this is this original poster. Just wanted to thank you all for your responses. My husband and I are in contact with a few people who have left the LC and are open to us, and it's been helpful having conversations with them about our concerns. But I'm still pretty confused and overwhelmed by everything.  First off, I know I need to be assertive and grow a backbone if we're going to leave. That's something I struggle with because I'm a people-pleaser and I like to avoid conflict. I don't think the teaching of having to always submit to authority has helped that tendency, but it's something I'm working on. Thankfully my husband is a lot better in the assertiveness department and he definitely balances me out. At the same time that I realize I don't have to apologize for our life choices, there are a small handful of saints in the LC who are extremely dear to my husband and me, and we wish we could avoid hurting them and losing their friendship if we leave. My husband and I are at a point where we both see errors in Lee's teaching and are disappointed by the continual hiding of the LC history. My husband, who did not grow up in the LC as I did, has always been bothered by the unofficial Sunday uniform and by things people in the LC do/ways they behave that are religious, while saying they're not a religious organization. When he used to bring these things up to me, I would get really uncomfortable and even scared he would be judged for talking that way. But I see it all so clearly now that he's been right all along. We've been avoiding meetings lately, only going on our days to serve, and feel that it will be really difficult, if not impossible, for us to enjoy meetings that are centered around the ministry again. We've had a hard time praying in the usual LC way and I haven't been able to read anything in the ministry without feeling cringey and uncomfortable. One of my concerns is finding fellowship outside the LC. My husband grew up without any religious background, but I'm a second-gen church kid and this is all I've really ever known. I'm ashamed to say I've judged believers outside the LC for years of my life and only now do I realize how wrong I've been. This forum, Jane Anderson's book, and the My Opinions Free guy on Youtube have been huge helps to me in shifting some of the mentalities I've had about life, the Body of Christ, and meeting outside the LC, but I do still worry about "fitting in" in any other church. It doesn't help that my parents (who we're extremely close to) were devastated when we told them we are thinking of leaving the LC. That's probably the hardest part of all this for me. One day my husband and I are both sure we need to leave, the next day we feel unsure again. I've told the Lord I want to be in His will for our lives regardless of the cost, but at the moment I feel paralyzed by fear. That's why I made my username NoFearInLove, because I want to remind myself of this fact. I feel like it can't be a mistake that I stumbled upon Jo's letter and went down the rabbit hole after purposely avoiding all "negative" writings on the internet about the LC for my entire life. But as much as I've read about "knowing the sense of life" over the years, I'm having a very hard time knowing for sure whether all that discovery was of the Lord or not. I feel like it is, but then I doubt. Your prayers are greatly appreciated! |
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| 09-13-2019 02:23 PM | |||
| treeoflife |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Dear original poster, Have you shared any of your concerns with someone that is close to you and that you trust? I know there may be fears (as you mentioned in your post - e.i, being called poisoned, evicted, etc.), but is there not one person that you can fully open to without fear? It may be therapeutic to just share what is weighing on you and your husband's heart before making the final decision...maybe the Lord will have a way to speak to you and your husband that may help clear up some things. Anyways, just sharing some thoughts with you and praying for you and your husband. I can't imagine how difficult the situation may be for you guys. |
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| 09-13-2019 11:27 AM | |||
| finallyprettyokay |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? I admire your desire to leave with as much good will as possible. I am not sure I had that in mind at all - I was just so angry. Relationships that had endured for years were severed. Hurtful words were spoken, on both sides - but maybe more on my side. Happily, most of those friendships have been restored but it took a long time. So I admire your desire and efforts to leave as gently as possible. I wish you well. |
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| 09-10-2019 10:52 AM | |||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
Quote:
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| 09-10-2019 09:22 AM | |||
| aron |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
The one thing that guided me was, not to stumble the young ones. They never should see adults fighting. Only that the adults love one another and love the youngsters. So adults can disagree, but love really covers everything. And it gives one time, and room, to find one's voice in the assembly. The Lord Jesus overturned the money-changer tables, called people hard words, "Get away from me Satan", but the Lord Jesus was without sin. Sometimes I try to turn over the money-changer tables but I turn over the food tables! Or the first aid stand! So I've learned to be a little more cautious as I get older. |
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| 09-09-2019 08:41 PM | |||
| JJ |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
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| 09-09-2019 06:35 PM | |||
| Ohio |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
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| 09-09-2019 06:24 PM | |||
| Truthseeker |
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| 09-08-2019 06:56 AM | |||
| Ohio |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? I had a tenant one time (sister's house) who went on the local Fox affiliate and alleged that we were a cult. They did a nasty segment about us and the occult on the nightly news. It was awful. |
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| 09-08-2019 06:36 AM | |||
| Nell |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
Nell |
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| 09-06-2019 12:57 PM | |||
| Response to concern |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? This isn't your main point, but I wanted to respond to one concern of yours. If you are worried about being evicted without much warning because your landlord is in the LC, you should talk to an attorney. Find a real estate or landlord/tenant attorney. Bring your rental contract. If you don't have a written contract but are staying there based on an oral agreement, even then there should be some legal protection for you (maybe 30-days notice). Let an attorney know your exact situation. This may seem like overkill, but it's good to be prepared in case what you fear (losing your home) should come to pass. One negative thing about the LC is that they discouraged talking to professionals (lawyers, accountants, therapists, etc.). It is completely legitimate in your situation to get legal advice. Hopefully the brother you rent from will not do anything inappropriate, but it's still wise to protect yourself. |
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| 09-05-2019 10:08 PM | |||
| byHismercy |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
I would arrange a new living situation before the LC bro landlord is made aware of your change of heart! But Lord Jesus bless you as you move forward! Either way you can trust in Him. |
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| 09-05-2019 07:19 PM | |||
| HERn |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Well, my wife and I hosted a home group every week and cooked a meal. When we saw the nakedness of The Lords Recovery we pulled back and asked others to host the home meetings. We pulled away and got free. I know some other couples did not understand, we shared nothing and gave no reason for pulling away. We were gentlemen and did not say anything negative, we just cut them off. We are now in a healthy church group and will never go back to the false teaching of the Lords Recovery. You may need to slip away quietly and find a healthy group to meet with. |
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| 09-05-2019 06:18 PM | |||
| Hannah |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? I don't think you owe an explanation to anyone but I completely understand feeling like one is necessary. I think the easiest is to say you and your wife are following the Lord's leading. If you give any other reasons there will be an argument, things will likely be said. If someone criticizes or questions you when your reason is "obeying the Lord" they look like the idiot, narrow and everything else. It might be easier not to leave gradually, it leaves too much opportunity for them to challenge or question. If there are those you have a good relationship and you want to maintain a relationship then tell them specifically "we are leaving because the Lord has led us elsewhere." And let them know you still want to gather for meals, movies, etc. Some might care that you leave but unfortunately a lot womt say or do much and that's really unfortunate. |
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| 09-05-2019 12:33 PM | |||
| Ohio |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Quote:
I was honest with some of my issues, and the elders/workers rejected them. I was honest with them, honest with myself, and honest to the Lord. When asked "where we've been," we told the saints that we are struggling to follow the Lord. I never voiced my concerns to the saints in general. For a few years afterwards, I would visit once a month to break bread and see the saints. I still see some of the saints. I found that leaving was easier than sticking around. Workers under TC could become quite abusive at times, just to maintain their power, having learned bad habits from TC. If you want to leave, just leave. Just tell them you are trying to follow the Lord. Don't argue with them. Don't reason with them. Don't try to persuade them. Don't even try to answer why. Just thank them, and tell them you will pray about it. Let them have the last word as you say thanks and good bye. |
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| 09-05-2019 11:58 AM | |||
| FranklyM |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? Your attitude of trying to avoid conflict is commendable. However, it will be almost impossible to avoid explaining why you wish to leave. If anyone asks, just say that you looked into things with a closer look and you found things that you did not know about and that your conscience started bothering you. Tell them you prayed about it (which I am assuming you did) and that you sought enlightenment in the Bible. Then you can say that you felt led to leave. Tell them you still love them but you cannot be associated with the LC any longer, and that you would prefer not to get into the details of it. "Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen." Martin Luther. |
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| 09-05-2019 11:44 AM | |||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? I like kumbaya's post. At some point there has to be serious resolve on your part and you'll have to set boundaries. As far as other advise, the method for leaving is Christ. That is, He is the best One - in you - for this situation. Be sure there is lots of prayer to the Lord, with the two of you as a couple. Pray that He lives and acts through you, guides you and sets the stage for you. And pray that His love will come through you, as you interact. You need to be "wise as serpents, yet gentle as doves." After all, these are brothers and sisters you will be communicating with (it's the system you are against). I left the LC back in 1988, however, I didn't have the same situation. Things had degraded in our locality some and others were leaving. We then moved to another part of the city, a few miles further from the meeting hall and other saints. Therefore, when I got a job offer to move out of state, there weren't any that I remember, that were questioning us about it all. (I will add that at that time in Columbus, OH, things weren't as intensely LSM as in other places. I also sorta think we might also not have been considered by some to be the "best material" if you know what I mean . . .) After that, it took about ten years of the Lord "drying me out" to begin to realize that there were other Christians who had a real relationship and portion of Christ besides the LC. Twenty years later, and by His love, mercy and grace, I am well down the road of "recovering from The Recovery"! The Lord be with you and please keep us posted. |
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| 09-05-2019 11:14 AM | |||
| kumbaya |
Re: How do you leave without making a scene? I mean this with love. You’re going to have grow a backbone. You don’t owe them answers. You can still be kind and exercise boundaries. No matter what, people will realize you’ve left and they will be hurt bc many in the LC project their feelings on to others and take it personally when people don’t feel the same as they do. You can only control yourself, not them. I’m sorry to be blunt but I’ve seen this play out so many times. You can’t control what others do or how they feel. You can only control yourself. Focus on you, your husband, your children, and your marriage. You will undoubtably have enough to worry about without adding the burden of caring what others think of you. |
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| 09-04-2019 11:04 PM | |||
| Unregistered |
How do you leave without making a scene? After reading Jo Casteel's open letter and going down the rabbit hole of research into the LC, my husband and I have decided that we would like to leave the LC. We want to do this as quietly as possible, but need advice on how to go about it from those who have done this before. We both currently serve in a couple different capacities on Sundays and host a small group in our home about once a month. In order to stop coming to the Sunday meetings, we'd have to announce to our service teams that we can no longer help out. We feel like that's just going to lead to more questions (i.e. why can't you serve?), or people reaching out to "shepherd" us (which is currently the last thing we want). We really don't have the desire to explain why we want to leave to everyone in the church and be labelled as "negative" or "poisoned". We've considered moving to a nearby city that's just far enough that we'd have an excuse as to why we can no longer serve, but that won't be possible for another 6 months or so. We don't really feel like we can stomach 6 more months of the LC. Our current landlord is actually a brother in the LC and we don't want to get evicted before we can afford to move if word gets out that we are "negative". (Not saying this person would straight up evict us, but you never know). We really love our small group and don't want to hurt them. If we announce how we feel about the LC and our desire to leave to them, most if not all of them will be pretty devastated. We'd love to keep those relationships, but know that might not be possible. We're a young couple and we want to start fresh. We still love the Lord and His people, but feel He's calling us out from the LC. Would love to hear some advice from you all. Thank you. 
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