Originally Posted by awareness

Originally Posted by awareness

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Originally Posted by Ohio

How will we be able to help the poor, serve one another, or feed our neighbors if we have not prepared by storing up some food, water, and money?

It seems to me that those who do nothing to prepare will be the first ones with their hands out, knocking down your doors, looting your supplies, and "enjoying" your wife. People like that need to stare down the barrel of a 12ga shotgun!

Just sayin'

Originally Posted by Ohio

How will we be able to help the poor, serve one another, or feed our neighbors if we have not prepared by storing up some food, water, and money?

It seems to me that those who do nothing to prepare will be the first ones with their hands out, knocking down your doors, looting your supplies, and "enjoying" your wife. People like that need to stare down the barrel of a 12ga shotgun!

Just sayin'

Originally Posted by HERn

I heard a profound (to me) thing from my simple pastor in my simple community church. "When Jesus returns wouldn't it be better if he finds us "manning our post" helping the pour, healing the sick preaching and living the gospel, loving one another, serving one another, than Him finding us hiding in our underground bunker in Arkansas, surrounded by our gold, dried food, weapons and ammo stores?"

Originally Posted by Dave

As I see it, in several years Cahn will be off on his own private island (arriving on a private runway with his own private plane and entourage) sitting with friends and family sipping on his beverage of choice. He will continue to give interviews and send messages out to the faithful who will still believe what he has to say. These type of individuals have been around every generation taking advantage of gullible individuals willing to "buy" into their 'revelations". In time we'll find out if Cahn is for real and if he is giving everyone a "Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to us". Of course, it won't be in our lifetime.

In WWII 60 million people died or about 3% of the estimated population of the world. In today's world 3% of the estimated population would equal over 200 million people who would die to match WWII's deaths. That would still leave us with well over 6 billion people. What catastrophic event other than a large meteorite hitting the earth could doom the earth?

I would like to make a suggestion---rather than quoting the doom and gloom of Revelation and people like Cahn wouldn't it just be great if we tried our best as Christians to spread the message of Jesus which is peace and to improve the earth and the people who live on it and solve the problems we face today. I know, in the end everyone who qualifies will be living in a new heaven and a new earth and so this earth doesn't matter. Oh well, it was just a suggestion.

Originally Posted by awareness

If Revelation has it, the Big Picture is not all pretty. Lots of people will give their lives for the sake of the New Heaven and New Earth (New Heaven!!!), and many will suffer for ever and ever ... even for, apparently, not watching.

Originally Posted by CMW

Originally Posted by Nell

Really? You presume that God hasn't spoken through Cahn?

Originally Posted by Nell

You presume that I'm disappointed?

Originally Posted by Nell

You presume to speak for God?

Originally Posted by Nell

"That's the way it is" because you say so?

Originally Posted by Nell

Who are you?

Originally Posted by Nell

You dismiss God's working at your own risk

Originally Posted by Nell

. . . but don't presume you know me.

Originally Posted by Nell

And you believe what you read in the supermarket isle?

Originally Posted by Nell

From the Bible...a more reliable source than the supermarket isle, "A day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day." That should put "soon" into perspective.

Originally Posted by awareness

Now, now sis. The OP starts off with Cahn ... and the title is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us." So Thankful Jane must have been telling us that God was speaking to us thru Cahn.

And clearly He wasn't. Sorry you're disappointed. But that's the way that it is.

Originally Posted by HERn

Seems like something is going on. I've read about prophecy since Hall Lindsey in the 70s. Russia moving into Syria right next to Israel raises my eyebrow. The U.S. backing away from Israel and becoming isolationist plays into the belief that an attack on Israel by Russia and the hordes could happen. But, the Lord said it would be like a thief in the night...I don't know kind of like surprising everyone...except for the more spiritual ones who can read the tea leaves and then write books and cash in on the fear of others. I guess I need to keep my heart ready and not play the prediction game.

Originally Posted by awareness

Now, now sis. The OP starts off with Cahn ... and the title is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us." So Thankful Jane must have been telling us that God was speaking to us thru Cahn.

And clearly He wasn't. Sorry you're disappointed. But that's the way that it is.

I can't tell how many doomers and gloomers I've seen all my life, just when cashing out in the supermarket isle.

I read one historical account where someone all the way back in 2500BC was predicting the end of the world, that was "coming soon." It's been going on for more than 4000 years. And we're still here. And the world is still here.

So please forgive me, really really forgive me, if I'm a little skeptical of these sorts of things. It's a fool me once sort of thing ... and you know the rest.

But still, I can't help but keep up with all this prophecy stuff. I've got some kind of disorder about it, even tho I can't identify it.

Originally Posted by awareness

This subject is really out there on this thread. I'll hit you in PM. But can be found on Christiantoday.com

Originally Posted by Nell

This thread went off the rails so long ago, it's hard to even find the rails.

The title is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us." It quickly deteriorated into an effort to discredit Jonathan Cahn.

Originally Posted by awareness

Not true. Just google it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is true. Provide your source where Christians were mentioned.

Originally Posted by awareness

Not true. Just google it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, and I heard silence from that rainbow-colored house in Wash. D.C. concerning the gunning down of Christians at that college in Oregon.

Originally Posted by Nell

Did you hear the 45 seconds of silence?

Originally Posted by Nell

So with that, I'll repeat the primary message, if indeed we are in the end-times, then be prepared by getting your life right with God. Watch and pray. Share the gospel.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yesterday Israel's Prime Minister spoke at the United Nations. Israel has always been our chief ally in the region. Our UN ambassador received a note from the White House not to attend.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by aron

I know - once we were in Iraq and couldn't find WMD, King George II said that it was about "freedom." We invaded Iraq to release the poor suffering Iraqis from a brutal dictator. Okay, why not invade Cuba, then? Or North Korea? Why pick a particular case and pretend it fulfills some universal ideal?

Originally Posted by OBW

Why not take up the side of every downtrodden group in the world? Go to every country and exert political and even military pressure to treat them all better. It would make us feel better, and would be in compliance of God's requirement to love everyone.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The USA used to ally with the Christians around the world, especially those being slaughtered.

Originally Posted by OBW

Which group in Syria is really our ally?

Originally Posted by Ohio

All of a sudden we have the Russians attacking our allies in Syria

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since when do hurricanes turn west after going up the east coast?

Originally Posted by Ohio

And for sure, all those "blood moons" on the Jewish feasts are just interesting night time viewing for astronomy students.

Originally Posted by awareness

Well the Russians and Joaquin are just ordinary ... so far.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps you are on to something awareness.

All of a sudden we have the Russians attacking our allies in Syria; the day after the two presidents just met together for handshakes and Lattes. Surprise, surprise! Imagine that, Russia "the king from the north" now has its military in the Mideast, and we have been asked to kindly "leave." Now get out!

All of a sudden Joaquin is looking like it may be worse than Super Storm Sandy. That would make two "hundred year" events in three years. Since when do hurricanes turn west after going up the east coast?

Of course, we can't attribute "climate change" to God, now can we? Somebody please buy me a Tesla. Quick!

And for sure, all those "blood moons" on the Jewish feasts are just interesting night time viewing for astronomy students.

Originally Posted by awareness

Just trying to point to the prediction. Which is, God is about to judge America soon.

Originally Posted by awareness

Just trying to point to the prediction. Which is, God is about to judge America soon.

And, by the way, something big always happens in relation to Israel when Shemitah happens with 4 blood moons on holy high days.

All I see so far is that it's well known that September 30th is a bad day for the stock market, historical records show.

And I have not been disrespectful toward you sis Nell.

However, you didn't expect me to just forget about it, did you?

I'm more obsessed with prophecy than prophecy nuts ... even tho keeping up with it for decades I've become very skeptical of it.

I'd like to see a new heaven and a new earth as much as anyone else. This world now really sucks.

Originally Posted by awareness

All I see so far is that it's well known that September 30th is a bad day for the stock market, historical records show.

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness,

If you want to have a discussion based on mutual respect, I can do that. But, your mind is clearly made up, and all I can see in your post is mockery...so...have a nice day.

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm with Ohio. What did Cahn predict? What are you trying to confirm...or deny?

Nell

Originally Posted by awareness

How long do we have to wait to confirm or disconfirm Cahn's prediction?

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm pretty sure he will explain everything in his next book, which you can probably pre-order at his website!

Originally Posted by OBW

Too many thin clouds to really see the color where I live.

Originally Posted by HERn

Oops! Now you've got me worried. Me and my sarcasm may get me into big trouble someday. But sarcasm is not as big of a sin as oh-I-don't-know...allowing married sisters to be molested by your office manager, taking retirement money from religious followers to bank-roll your son's business, slandering faithful co-workers, calling every group but your own a prostitute, suing your Christian brothers for critiquing your doctrine or practices, right?

Originally Posted by HERn

Oops! Now you've got me worried. Me and my sarcasm may get me into big trouble someday. But sarcasm is not as big of a sin as oh-I-don't-know...allowing married sisters to be molested by your office manager, taking retirement money from religious followers to bank-roll your son's business, slandering faithful co-workers, calling every group but your own a prostitute, suing your Christian brothers for critiquing your doctrine or practices, right?

Originally Posted by awareness

Instead of buying his book, if we kept OT laws today, we'd have to stone him as a false prophet.

But we've got to give it until October 1. If nothing then, gather yer stones.

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm pretty sure he will explain everything in his next book, which you can probably pre-order at his website!

Originally Posted by Dave

Eternity.....

Originally Posted by Jesus4Me

The point is to be always ready. If Jesus said that He will come like a thief in the night; at a time when no one will think He will come; one could surmise such a time when nothing happens after all of these convincing predictions, and wind up with people mocking disappointed christians, then that is when people & believers may let their guards down; and viola; Hello.

BTW: If believers think all christians will be raptured; they are wrong. Only those abiding in Him as His disciples, by His grace & by His help, will be taken since no flesh shall glory in His Prescence, the "elect" will be praising the Lord for delivering them by His righteousness & His faithfulness; which is part of the reason why Jesus was warning believers, even His disciples, to always be ready by preparing themselves to be ready by Him to meet the Bridegroom by running that race in laying aside every weight & sin as the Author & Finsher of our faith will finish His work in us since the just can only live by faith.

Originally Posted by awareness

How long do we have to wait to confirm or disconfirm Cahn's prediction?

Originally Posted by awareness

How long do we have to wait to confirm or disconfirm Cahn's prediction?

Originally Posted by awareness

How long do we have to wait to confirm or disconfirm Cahn's prediction?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you noticed that America is right in Jerusalem?

How about if I spell it this way -- Jerusalem?

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

You are correct.

Genesis 12:2-4 (KJV)
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Nell

Originally Posted by Ohio

To me it is abundantly clear that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and that God has both blessed our country, and has used this country to benefit the rest of the earth.

Just look at the facts. Objectively, please.

That's not to say we are a "Christian country" per se, nor that our government officials should be considered godly representatives of the Almighty. That was never the intention of the founding fathers, nor should we even equate what was written to Israel in the Bible with the US as a country. Israel alone, not the USA, could be considered the nation of Jehovah.

I believe part of our national blessing, however, can be attributed to our support of Israel. And I believe the contrapositive is also true, that is, the less we support Israel, the less God will bless us with his favor. The daily news reports support this. Isn't it tragic that the book of Revelation seems to have no mention of the so-called "greatest nation on earth."

Originally Posted by Nell

In God we Trust; One Nation, Under God; So help me God

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems that some categorically reject any and all prophecy just because there have been false prophets.

Originally Posted by Nell

Sooooo...Dude. How much money did you spend on Cahn's books and DVD's??????

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

Sooooo...Dude. How much money did you spend on Cahn's books and DVD's??????

Nell

Originally Posted by Ohio

Israel is the center of much of the prophecy.

If Balfour Declaration occurred during the 68th Jubilee ...

And Jerusalem became part of Israel on the 69th Jubilee ...

Will we then see the temple built on the 70th Jubliee?

Originally Posted by Ohio

I never read Cahn's books so I really can't answer the rest of your questions.

Originally Posted by awareness

Come October if nothing happens everyone that donated to Shemitah can get their money back. Put your requests in now....

Originally Posted by awareness

No money back from Jim Bakker ... you should know better.

Originally Posted by Nell

you can't always choose the messenger. Check the message with the word. Take the message to the Lord and take the answer from Him. Something we didn't do with Lee. I get it.

Originally Posted by awareness

Is correlation causation? Does God believe the earth is the center of the universe, and that the sun, moon, and stars whirl around and around it? Does God operate based upon the whirling celestial objects? If so, in a universe of hundreds of billion galaxies, why those just around the earth?

Is He waiting for a lunar eclipse to do something? The Jewish calendar came out of the Babylonia lunar year. It was not accurate and had to be adjusted from time to time to match the solar year.

Since the 16th century we no longer think the earth is the center of the universe. The church fought it. They could not stop thinking they were the center of everything. They burned at the stake over it.

And this blood moon thing is nothing more than our inability to let go of the idea that we are the center of everything; the lingering, hundreds of years later, of the church fighting against the earth not being the center of it all.

And our dear Jewish brother Cahn is still caught up in that kind of thinking.

Should our modern minds that know better embrace it?

Just askin'?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Israel is the center of much of the prophecy.

If Balfour Declaration occurred during the 68th Jubilee ...

And Jerusalem became part of Israel on the 69th Jubilee ...

Will we then see the temple built on the 70th Jubliee?

Originally Posted by Nell

In 1917-1918, World War I, the Balfour Declaration allowed Jews to come home to Jerusalem from the 4 corners of the world. To the Jewish people this was certainly a Jubilee.

Fifty years later (Hebrew calendar) 1966-67, saw the "6-Day" war in Israel, allowing Israel to recapture Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. However, under UN pressure, Israel gave the Temple Mount back to the Arabs. Again, certainly a Jubilee.

Now, another 50 years from 1966-67 we have 2015-16. This 50 years begins on Sept. 14, 2015. If there was war in Israel, is it likely they would proceed to begin rebuilding the Temple on the Temple Mount? Under what scenario would Israel, if they had control of the Temple Mount, NOT begin rebuilding the temple?

It seems to me that in the entire world, something big is about to happen. It looks like it would a miracle for some global catastrophe NOT to happen.

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

What if "something" does happen?

Nell

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell I just heard that this is a year of Jubilee, and it is the 70th Jubilee.

Have you heard this?

Originally Posted by Nell

What if "something" does happen?

Nell

Originally Posted by awareness

Come October if nothing happens everyone that donated to Shemitah can get their money back. Put your requests in now at:

www.JonathanCahnMoneyBackGuarantee.net

If the link doesn't work it means you don't qualify. Your faith is not strong enough to qualify ... or you'd keep sending money anyway.



No money back from Jim Bakker ... you should know better.

Originally Posted by aron

God has a different rule. If the prophet is wrong once, then he's no prophet. God doesn't give him a thousand shots at it, to get it right. Now, we are to forgive our brothers, the failed prophets, seven times seventy, yes. We are to receive them, but not as prophets, but as brothers. Guys like Miller and Russel were brothers who lost their way. As did Nee and Lee. As do we all, at some point. We forgive others, just as God forgave us in Christ Jesus. We receive one another, just as God received us in Christ Jesus.

Speaking of failed prophets, and rejecting false ones, when prophets peddle their predictions for lucre, I am wary, to say the least. Here's Jonathan Cahn on the Jim Bakker show, peddling his wares. I believe that 100 bucks will get you the deluxe set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99jZ6LmbbBc

Jim Bakker, for those of you living on Pluto, is a disgraced former televangelist, who when he was released from the slammer (serving time for mail fraud), got right back into the "beseeching for money" business, complete with a new bottle-blonde wife.

These guys are addicted to lucre. It distorts their vision, their testimony, and their person. Yes they are brothers, but long ago (so it seems to me) they lost their way. I already gave my savings to Lee, to build his La Palma campus; why give to yet another huckster? If there is something to the "Blood Moon Prophecy", I believe the Lord will exonerate me for not taking it from Cahn, Hagee et al.

Originally Posted by aron

..If there is something to the "Blood Moon Prophecy", I believe the Lord will exonerate me for not taking it from Cahn, Hagee et al.

Originally Posted by awareness

Then the one that's been coming humbly responded, "How many times did it take Edison to invent the light bulb?" I said, "Edison didn't invent the light bulb, but it took him a thousand tries to invent the bulb that could be marketed. So are you saying that if you keep saying, "Jesus is coming back tomorrow sooner or later you'll be right?""

Originally Posted by awareness

I was on the couch, in my underwear, when I heard a car pull up in my driveway. I looked out and saw them.

They were stunned, and their jaws were dropped, to see and hear such a spectacle.

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for the compliment sis.
So they agree with you sis Nell: "All the prophecies have been with us for a very long time, but one day, they will be fulfilled."

Originally Posted by Nell

So, awareness, historically, you're all over the place. I don't know what's going to happen, if anything, but I do know we should watch and pray. Then, "Look up! For our redemption draws near."

All the prophecies have been with us for a very long time, but one day, they will be fulfilled.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Without a "covenant" or peace treaty with an extremely powerful ruler only named "he," Israel probably could not rebuild their temple. Without this temple there can be no sacrifices in Israel. Without this temple, and without established sacrifices, "he" could not terminate the sacrifice in the middle of the week of 7 years.

Originally Posted by Nell

To set himself up in God's temple, God's temple must be rebuilt.

Daniel 9:27 (NIV)
[27] He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him".

Originally Posted by Ohio

If the temple does get built in your lifetime, will you then begin to believe the scriptures?

Originally Posted by awareness

Then there's lots to do to prepare. We've got about a month to rebuild the temple.

This may be a sign:

Christian Child Fulfills Prophecy of Isaiah 56:7 on Temple Mount and You’ll Never Guess How
Read more at http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/48...35xI7RUJRhw.99

Originally Posted by Ohio

A little surprising to see CNN warning its readers about Biblical prophecy pointing to the coming of the Lord.

At our Lord's first coming, it was only those actively seeking His arrival who recognized the signs of the time and paid attention to the scriptures announcing His return.

Just because many false prophets have wrongly predicted dates of His coming in the past, is no reason that we should not believe the Scripture and prepare for Him.

Originally Posted by awareness

Blood moon has some expecting end of the world:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/01/living...eat/index.html

Originally Posted by Nell

Possible explanation, according to the link:

According to the Bible, the altar may not be made out of stones hewn by metal implements. The altar prepared by the Temple Institute, under the direction of architect Rabbi Shmuel Balsam, follows this requirement.

Nell

Originally Posted by OBW

The report is probably true, but it seems odd that it would take years to build, but only a very short time to disassemble and reassemble. Something seems contradictory (note, I say "seems").

Originally Posted by Nell

The altar, which took several years to build, can . . . be disassembled and reassembled easily, allowing it to be transported quickly and efficiently from its current location, on display at the institute, to the Temple Mount when the time comes

Originally Posted by Ohio

If someone pays attention to scriptural prophecy, then he must be nuts.

If someone is skeptical of Jesus and the Bible, the guy must be brilliant.

Originally Posted by awareness

Several years to build? I've been told by prophecy nuts that the whole temple can be rebuilt in a week.

Originally Posted by Nell

The altar, which took several years to build,

Originally Posted by Nell

This is a long message from Jonathan Cahn given, as best as I can tell, July 28, 2015. He gives an update of what has happened since Sept. 25, 2014. It's worth a listen.

http://elshaddaiministries.us/specia...final_hour.php
Scroll down to the link "The Mystery of What Lies Ahead".

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

(Amo 3:7) Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

Nell

Originally Posted by awareness

"This Saturday will be the third of four total eclipses in the 18-month long tetrad series. Previous eclipses occurred on April 15, 2014 and. Oct. 8, 2014. After Saturday, the next one is expected on Sept. 28, 2015. Such a closely-spaced succession of eclipses is a fairly rare occurrence.

Some Christians believe the blood moon lunar eclipse tetrad could be connected to Jesus’ return — or signify a world-changing event about to take place.
According to the King James Bible, “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord comes,” (Joel 2:31)."
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...aster-weekend/

Originally Posted by OBW

awareness,

I think that you still get a little nutsy on some of these issues, but overall we agree on the jest of it, even if not on all the details.

For one, I don't think you have to insist on tossing Revelation to realize that there is a lot in there that you don't understand yet do recognize your need for action in this life.

And for me it always comes back to this life. Those who are too interested in the afterlife often ignore this life. And it makes for pretty pathetic versions of "salt and light." Somehow people that just go around railing on sinners and pining to see the new Left Behind movies don't have anything like the impact on the world that they think they do.

Originally Posted by OBW

You are really going off the reservation here. Of all the things that might create some doubt about the authenticity of John's Apocalypse, this isn't it.

Originally Posted by OBW

While it may be true that no one can simply say that the stars are the OT saints of any kind, you also cannot just find that a particular word never was used as a metaphor anywhere else and declare it to be literal when written into book of metaphors. Especially when the literal meaning would be, as you point out, completely destructive to the remaining drama of the writing.

Originally Posted by OBW

It places you squarely into the "not from God at all costs retard" camp. And I don't think you are a retard. And I bet you don't either.

Originally Posted by OBW

I will confess that if the importance of Revelation is all the strange stuff that so many "stuck in the end times" kind of people come up with, I would tend to doubt its authenticity too.

Originally Posted by OBW

And this is probably where the Preterists get their start. With the complete destruction of Jerusalem such that you couldn't recognize the previous existence of a city, coupled with the huge number of people who died, it is easy to see how that could be the source of such thinking. And they would assert that we are simply somewhere between the start and the finish now. And that gap is of uncertain length. And if 1 day is as a thousand years (metaphorically, not literally), then how long is it all? Are we near the end? Only a little way in?

Originally Posted by OBW

I am convinced that most who think they have figured out much of the meaning of Revelation are the most deluded of us all.

Originally Posted by OBW

Is Revelation "over the top"? What do we do with it? Maybe the answer is to be warned. And that is enough.

Originally Posted by OBW

And there is the real issue. Where are we with God? That is the determiner of our ultimate existence.
. . . And you really don't need to understand all of the picture you see before you to "get the picture." And the picture is that it really matters which side of the Christ issue you are on. Are you a true follower and believer. Or are you one who thinks little or nothing about Him. Or putting the following off until later.

Originally Posted by awareness

I didn't know I was even in the running. But thanks for the compliment. Do I still get to keep the robe, and funny hat?

Originally Posted by OBW

But Ephesians 2:3 does not say that. It speaks collectively of "all of us" and the cravings of "our" flesh. He sees himself within the truth of the fallen condition, but is not declaring that every aspect of what he mentions is personally his. He is not declaring himself to be a pagan. That is simply a stretch beyond what is there.

Originally Posted by Dave

In Ephesians this author says he had previously lived an immoral life as a pagan, "in the passions of the flesh, following its desires and senses" Eph. 2:3 whereas in Philippians he writes, "According to the righteousness found in the law, I was blameless" (Phil. 3:6)

Originally Posted by Dave

I noted that Ephesians may well have not been written to the Ephesians.

Originally Posted by Nell

However, I believe there is a baseline for Christians, of which first is the infallibility of the Bible.

Originally Posted by Nell

I won't accept Awareness as an "oracle" either.

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness---this is not good. Maybe you think you're being "cute", but you're not. Lots of people are reading your posts and you've put yourself in the position of possibly causing God's children to stumble. You don't want that millstone around your neck. (Matt. 18:6)

Originally Posted by Nell

Why don't you give us a testimony of your faith? Your love for the Father, your acceptance of Jesus as your Savior, and your belief that the Bible is God's word...all of it? This will help all of us, because at this point, I don't know where you stand.

Originally Posted by Dave

Which Bible?

Originally Posted by Dave

You know that the original manuscripts were written in Greek? The KJV is not the original Bible. Neither are the following versions: NSRV; NET; RSV; EV; etc. Are each one of them infallible? Some of them leave out verses from the KJV because they discovered that they were not in older manuscripts e.g. 1 John 5:7-8. These verses are well known to have been inserted by scribes. So, which Bible is infallible? We don't have any original manuscripts so what we have are Bibles which have been translated from copies of copies of copies etc. I don't disagree with you I just want to know which Bible is infallible from your perspective.

Originally Posted by Dave

Can't we just call awareness a "disturbed oracle"? In that way he keeps his "Oracle robe" which I understand he wears quite frequently.

BTW Nell, thanks for responding and I do appreciate your perspective!

Originally Posted by bearbear

The mountain of spiritual riches wasn't the problem, rather it was an environment that necessitated the need for an oracle and another mediator besides Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

We have the word of God and we have the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things (John 16:13).

I simply come to the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to teach me. Then I ask God to strengthen me so I can do what his word says. As I struggle to obey, I develop relationship with Jesus and come to know him through my meagre effort to live my faith. I simply pray, trust and obey and through this I come to know and experience the tangible love of Jesus as he comes through for me in ways I never would have imagined. As I experience his love for me, I can't help but to love him back, but it all started with faith. We love him because he first loved first.

No LSM conferences, trainings, theological degrees or esoteric knowledge is required. It's within the grasp of anyone, even simple fishermen.

Originally Posted by Dave

Here is my point. Didn't we spend years under WL believing that we were "uncovering the mountain of spiritual riches contained in God's word"? The other day I was looking at 3 notebooks full of detailed notes I took while I was at the Hebrew conference in Anaheim with WL. I, along with others, were caught up in it. Oh, the mountain of spiritual riches we thought we were experiencing at that time. Your free buffet can be deceptive and a trap, as I quoted 1 Thess "...test everything." In addition, we are all at different levels. When I first was a Christian in 1964 and went to Bible college I saw the Bible, books of the Bible, verses in a certain way. As I studied over the years my understanding changed. We all became stuck in the mud with WL teachings...unable to change and saturated with his interpretations. If we limit our growth to one interpretation we fall back into the WL syndrome.

Originally Posted by Nell

Dave,
I understand what you're saying. However, I believe there is a baseline for Christians, of which first is the infallibility of the Bible.
Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

We were followers of WL. Not anymore. No more "oracles". I won't accept Awareness as an "oracle" either. He gets to have an opinion, but his rantings are not authoritative and need to be challenged.
Nell

Originally Posted by OBW

The Corinthians passage is talking about the resurrection of the body. It is essentially the topic of the entire chapter. Paul begins by talking about the fact of the resurrection of Christ. Then he turns to the error that some had taken on that there would be no resurrection of the dead for man. And coupled with that, a discussion of the nature of the body in resurrection. It all ends with a declaration that at the time of the resurrection, the age is changing and the old, corrupted body of flesh that we had does not qualify for entry. Therefore the need for a resurrection with a different kind of body.

But Ephesians 2 is simply not talking about the same thing. You are equating "made alive together with Christ" with something about resurrection. That is not the common understanding of salvation/regeneration. It is not a matter of resurrection. Where is there anything about being raised (as if in resurrection)? Are you relying on one of many definitions of a word? A definition that is not the one accepted by most translators? And if so, why are we to reject the majority opinion and take yours? In the past I did that for Lee and I just don't go there anymore — at least not without good cause.

And it would appear that you are busy responding to bear-bear about this. And it seems that bear-bear is also treating Ephesians as if talking about some kind of resurrection.

But I see no basis for treating Ephesians 2 as talking about the resurrection of the body of any man, but instead about the salvation of man.

Not the same thing.

And therefore nothing that would lead anyone to conclude that two entirely different people with different views on resurrection wrote these two books.

Am I missing something here?

Originally Posted by Nell

When I was really young, I sang a little song with my Bible School class. The words were: "Into my heart...into my heart...come into my heart Lord Jesus..." I had sung that song many times, but one day, He did it. He accepted MY invitation. I invited Him in, and in He came.

Pretty awesome, huh? It's my favorite story. I love it. The God of the universe responded when a little bitty kid invited Him into her heart. What a God we have!

Originally Posted by awareness

And this guy John saying that stars fall to earth reveals that his book is not inspired by God. As God knows, and knew, as well as we today, that if even one star fell to earth, the earth, sun, and whole solar system, would be completely obliterated. And that would mean the end of John's make believe drama.

That means the book of Revelation is a forgery -- not from God -- using John's name, and borrowing imagery from OT prophets, to explain what was going on back in the author's day.

Originally Posted by Dave

You should read those verses again. That is exactly my point. The Corinthian's passage is saying we have "not" spiritually been raised with Christ yet (Paul was trying to address the gnostic point which indicated that we have been raised spiritually with Christ and therefore our bodies are not important). Ephesians is saying we have been raised with Christ, spiritually, as you say. There is a clear contradiction. The only thing you can say is that he is addressing two issues from different perspectives but I believe my original point was that Ephesians was written by a different person which maybe in the scheme of things doesn't mean anything if it is scripture.

Originally Posted by bearbear

The heart of what I was saying was not to discourage scholarly studies of God's word, but that if you are using your scholarly gift to undermine the validity of scriptures, that is much less profitable than directing your talents towards uncovering the mountain of spiritual riches contained in God's word.

It's like spending hours to find scraps of food in a garbage bin, when there's a free buffet two feet away.

Originally Posted by Nell

It was a request which was made with respect.

Nell

Originally Posted by Dave

You should read those verses again. That is exactly my point. The Corinthian's passage is saying we have "not" spiritually been raised with Christ yet (Paul was trying to address the gnostic point which indicated that we have been raised spiritually with Christ and therefore our bodies are not important). Ephesians is saying we have been raised with Christ, spiritually, as you say. There is a clear contradiction. The only thing you can say is that he is addressing two issues from different perspectives but I believe my original point was that Ephesians was written by a different person which maybe in the scheme of things doesn't mean anything if it is scripture.

Originally Posted by bearbear

In Ephesians 2:1 it says "we were dead in our transgressions". Paul is speaking in spiritual terms, not physical terms as he is writing to people who are not physically dead but alive. We were spiritually dead in our sins, but then God's grace through Jesus Christ paved the way for us to be born again in the Holy Spirit. We were once dead in the spirit but then God made us alive in the spirit.

Henceforth Ephesians 2:5-6 isn't referring to the resurrection of our bodies which will happen at the last trumpet (1 Thess 4:16), but it's talking in spiritual terms. Though that's not to say that the author isn't also pointing to our eventual receiving of our inheritance in Christ which includes reigning with him (2 Tim 2:12) and receiving new bodies (1 Cor 15:52).

Although Jesus is in heaven, spiritually speaking, we can be where Jesus is just as when Jesus said we could remain in him and he in us (John 15:5), and he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit (1 Cor 6:17).

Originally Posted by bearbear

I am afraid that by you devoting yourself to this kind of research rather than the word of God which gives you growth in your salvation (1 Peter 2:2, Acts 20:32), you're straining a gnat but swallowing whole camels.

Originally Posted by Dave

Nell
I respect what you have to say and your arguments are often well made and you sound reasonable. My concern is that we start creating a litmus test regarding our posts by challenging what we each believe whether it is for awareness, myself or others. Were not we all followers of WL? We are on this forum sharing our experiences and concerns as a result of what we discovered.

Originally Posted by Dave

I never intended to mock you but I was just making a point and you make them all the time. Of course He speaks through people but we had that problem with WL...we all thought he was God's Oracle----we followed him and where did that lead us. I guess that is my point...I believe it is good to challenge some things because we need to tread carefully lest we fall into the same trap again. Let's listen to awareness because he was a true believer of WL who tests the scriptures (I Thess 5:21 ... test everything Acts 17:11 examine scriptures every day to see if they are true) awareness is testing everyday and so are you.

Originally Posted by Dave

In Corinthians 15:12-15 Paul insisted that they had not been resurrected with Christ – they were saying there was no resurrection of the dead, indicated that they had already been raised and their bodies were meaningless and they could do what they wanted e.g. lie with prostitutes etc (Paul wrote this because many had taken on gnostic beliefs after he left) but Ephesians 2:5-6 indicates that “God has raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly places".

Originally Posted by awareness

Dearest Sister,
And I don't know if you buy into Witness Lee's historical perspective, that the 7 churches represent the historical development of the church down thru the ages, if so you are also of a historical sort. That would mean you have three ways, against my one way.

Originally Posted by Nell

No. We all need to follow what the BIBLE says regarding our faith.

Thank you. I appreciate the warning from all, and I am warned. I believe this is healthy. I'm continuing to research.

Awareness has gone far beyond expressing his "concern" about the book of Revelation. If you all are going to judge me by my words, can we not apply the same standard to all? I'm not questioning Awareness' faith as much as I'm asking for a clarification of what it is. I believe this is scriptural.

What you call "accept blindly" I call "accept by faith."

I will be happy to provide my profession of faith if you all would care to read it.

No "maybe" to it. My words are accountable.

I've tried to present that my "support" for Cahn is not for Cahn himself but for his message...to the extent that it is biblical.

Maybe I haven't done a good job of making that point, because it keeps being coming back at me as blindly supporting Cahn. That is not the case. I apologize that I cannot present this fact in a clear way that you all would stop accusing me of something that I do not believe.

At least I've actually read Cahn. Perhaps you folks are blindly rejecting his message without having read it. Is that possible?

I understand that this is your mockery of me. Does God speak through His people or not? Is God speaking in the rantings of Awareness? After all that Awareness has posted against a book of the Bible, I don't believe it's out of line to request a testimony of faith.
It was a request which was made with respect.
Nell

Originally Posted by Dave

Does awareness' faith need to follow what you believe his faith should be?

Originally Posted by Dave

Awareness is warning you, "don't follow Cahn".

Originally Posted by Dave

Awareness is a prophet who is steeped in scripture. Just because he is concerned about the book Revelation should not be a reflection of his lack of faith but more a reflection of his concern with those who would be distracted by the book since it may not have been written by John and should not be included in the canon and accepted blindly.

Originally Posted by Dave

Remember you may very well have your "words" supporting "Cahn" become accountable to God as well if every word we speak is being monitored by God.

Originally Posted by Dave

Maybe God is perusing these forums, if so, I wish He would make an entry just to let us know. Maybe He has, as a "Guest" (what's his IP). Or maybe you are the Voice of God?

Originally Posted by awareness

You make a claim that, the "stars are the old testament saints OF THE 12 TRIBES of Israel."

However, when I search the whole Bible for the Greek word ἀστήρ (astēr) in every case but one it means the literal stars up in the sky at night, not old testament saints, as you claim.

And this guy John saying that stars fall to earth reveals that his book is not inspired by God. As God knows, and knew, as well as we today, that if even one star fell to earth, the earth, sun, and whole solar system, would be completely obliterated. And that would mean the end of John's make believe drama.

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness---this is not good. Maybe you think you're being "cute", but you're not. Lots of people are reading your posts and you've put yourself in the position of possibly causing God's children to stumble. You don't want that millstone around your neck. (Matt. 18:6)

Matthew 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

Why don't you give us a testimony of your faith? Your love for the Father, your acceptance of Jesus as your Savior, and your belief that the Bible is God's word...all of it? This will help all of us, because at this point, I don't know where you stand.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Nell

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course, God did not write the book of Revelation, he told John to write, "to write what you have seen." (1.19)

awareness is just playing with you Nell. He says outlandish things just to tease the girls, and get a few laughs.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I like to ask the Holy Spirit for understanding, for revelation and for Wisdom. He likes that too. And He doesn't like to be boxed in.

So.. for whatever it's worth...... I am going to blow your mind with what HE REVEALED to me...and back it with scriptures for those who STILL believe the Bible we have is GOD's WRITTEN WORD that is REVEALED to us ONLY by HIS SPIRIT.

And for your information DOH-DOH BIRD HAROLD, GOD DID WRITE THE BOOK OF REVELATION.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course, God did not write the book of Revelation, he told John to write, "to write what you have seen." (1.19)

awareness is just playing with you Nell. He says outlandish things just to tease the girls, and get a few laughs.

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh He's listening and watching. And what He's saying about the book of Revelation is: "I never wrote any of it."

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh He's listening and watching. And what He's saying about the book of Revelation is: "I never wrote any of it."

Ha

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe you've got a point:

Rev_6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Originally Posted by zeek

Don't you want to leave John's vision of a new heaven and new earth in your special Bible? But, take your time answering the question. Stars are expected to form normally for at least a trillion years, but eventually the supply of gas needed for star formation will be exhausted. As existing stars run out of fuel and cease to shine, the universe will slowly and inexorably grow darker, one star at a time. At that point, John's vision could come in handy.

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh He's listening and watching. And what He's saying about the book of Revelation is: "I never wrote any of it."

And also, "That Cahn guy is crazy. I do things according to Shemitah .... LoL ... rotflmao."

Ha

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness, you're talking about God like He isn't listening to you.

Originally Posted by awareness

...God was angry and wrathful before the cross and angry and wrathful afterwards; like God said or thought, "I gave my son as a sacrifice for the sin of the world, to forgive them," but ... but, "oh hell, forget the cross, I'm just going back to being angry and wrathful."

And bearbear, you can throw Bible verses at it all day long, and twist your logic into a bag of pretzels, but you can't get around it.

In the end the problem is the book of Revelation. It just doesn't belong in the canon.

It causes crazies, like Lee and Cahn. And I think you, my brother, are at risk, if you keep struggling with trying to solve the impossible, even with Bible verses.

Unless you just admit:

Isa 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Originally Posted by Dave

unless you can reconcile the two points of view.

Originally Posted by bearbear

Are you referring to 1 Cor 15 talking about the resurrection of all the dead?

Originally Posted by Dave

Luke 3:6 And ALL mankind will see God’s salvation.
John 12:32 when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself.
John 12:47 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the WORLD, but to SAVE IT.
John 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to ALL those you have given him.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save THE WORLD through him.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL men.
Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us ALL—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:38-39 nor ANYTHING else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them ALL.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 God was reconciling THE WORLD to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.
Ephesians 1:9-10 to bring ALL things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
Philippians 2:9-10 at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Colossians 1:19-20 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 who gave himself as a ransom for ALL men
1 Timothy 4:9-10 who is the Savior of ALL men

Originally Posted by Dave

------There is a considerable number of scriptures which contradict the conclusions that you may be drawing from Ephesians. In addition, the verses you quote in Ephesians 2 contradicts 1 Corinth 15.

Originally Posted by bearbear

This question coincides with a great debate between Calvinists and Arminians.

Limited atonement view:
Jesus just died only for his elect. God only loved the ones he chose and saved.

Unlimited atonement view:
God loves everyone and Jesus died for everyone. It's up to others to accept his gift with their free will as God cannot force himself on them. Unfortunately few do.

In both cases the majority who do not accept Jesus are damned. Yet Jesus' sacrifice still makes a difference because the ones who are saved from God's wrath would have never stood a chance without it. I find support in scripture for both views, and one may not necessarily rule out the other in the logic that God operates in which may be beyond our own time-based, finite minds.

Ephesians 2:1-6

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Jesus also considered those who were destined to hell as "dead" (Luke 9:60) and he told the Sadducees that God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead. Ultimately those who make it are the ones who matter, and the ones who don't, don't have any share in the next age and hence God does view them as if they were 'dead'. If it were not for Jesus there would be no humans asides from Jesus 'alive' by God's definition and eternal viewpoint as everyone would have been an deserving object of his wrath.

Hence, anything God does for us, is unmerited, undeserved; it is *grace*. If God were simply "fair" by his own definition, we'd all be screwed. But because God is loving and merciful we received grace through Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by awareness

like God said or thought, "I gave my son as a sacrifice for the sin of the world, to forgive them," but ... but, "oh hell, forget the cross, I'm just going back to being angry and wrathful."

Originally Posted by awareness

But what was missed, or untold by Lee, is that they both have an angry wrathful God. In fact, step back and look at the OT God, and the God in Revelation, and it's like the death of Jesus on the cross didn't count. God was angry and wrathful before the cross and angry and wrathful afterwards; like God said or thought, "I gave my son as a sacrifice for the sin of the world, to forgive them," but ... but, "oh hell, forget the cross, I'm just going back to being angry and wrathful."

Originally Posted by bearbear

God is just and does not condemn the innocent (2 Thess 1:6). People who end up in hell are not innocent but are reaping what they have sown.

Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

Also "Innocent" has to be from God's point of view. What the world views as innocent is perhaps different from what an eternal, all powerful, all knowing God considers "innocent" and only his point of view matters because he is the Judge.



The suffering in this world, including the suffering of the Jewish people is not a result of God's wrath, though God can allow it by simply lifting his hand of protection. Matthew 12:20 seems to suggest that God won't lift a finger to judge the world until the "Day of the Lord". I guess this kind of contradicts Cahn's warning of judgment happening before Jesus comes-- unless it also coincides with the Day of the Lord / Daniel's 70th week and the events described in Revelation. Or perhaps God views these events as warnings rather than judgment, (God chastises his children because he loves them, Hebrews 12:6).

Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he has brought justice through to victory.

I believe God is okay with allowing suffering because those who suffer will have their mourning made up for in eternity as was the case of Lazarus (Luke 16:14-31). However the rich man who enjoyed his life but ignored the poor suffered a horrible fate that could not be undone. Those who are first will be last and vice versa. The sermon on the mount also echoes this principle such as

Matthew 5:4
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

Our current life is like a vapor or mist, we are here today and gone tomorrow (James 4:14). But because human experience is limited to the life we live in this world, we tend to overvalue our own life at the cost of our eternity, something that Jesus warned about a lot (Luke 9:60, Matthew 16:26). From the viewpoint of time, the only thing that matters is eternity and the decisions we make in this life that affect ours and other's eternity. Hence, the suffering that really matters in God's eyes, is the suffering that happens in eternity which trumps any suffering that happens while we are alive on this earth.

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Originally Posted by Dave

A God of wrath who is okay with eternal damnation/torment. What about all of the innocents? Don't you think that Christians should struggle with reconciling a God of love with a God of wrath and eternal damnation and tormenting of souls? Your scripture quotes appear to be dismissive of some important issues in this regard. Note that "It is for your piety that he reproves you…" Job 22:4-7,9-10

Originally Posted by bearbear

Many Christians struggle with reconciling a God of love with a God who is not only wrathful but is okay with eternal damnation and torment of souls.

I believe it is possible to reconcile a God of love with a God of wrath who is okay with eternal damnation/torment.

Originally Posted by awareness

See what I mean about the book of Revelation. It makes for non-Christ-like thinking and believing. It makes for crazy.

Why do we seem to be drawn to an angry wrathful God? John, the real John, said, "God is Love," not God is wrath. Revelation must be a forgery. There's no Christ, that we see in the gospels, in it ... and the real John couldn't have written such a book.

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness,

If your hope is that "I'm wrong", you misunderstand my message. I don't believe in Jonathan Cahn. This is what I believe, and it's a message for me, you and your neighbors, too. Its lyrics from one of my favorite songs.

We Believe
We believe in the Father, who created all that is
And we believe the universe and all therein is His
As a loving heavenly Father, He yearned to save us all
To lift us from the fall . . . We believe

We believe in Jesus the Father’s only Son
Existing uncreated before time had begun
A sacrifice for sin, He died then rose again
To ransom sinful men, We believe

We believe in the spirit who makes believers one
Our hearts are filled with His presence
The Comforter has come
The kingdom unfolds in His plan
Unhindered by quarrels of man
His church upheld by His hand . . . We believe

Though the earth be removed
And time be no more
These truths are secure
God’s word shall endure
Whatever may change, these things are sure . . . We believe

So if the mountains are cast down into the plains
When kingdoms all crumble, this one remains
Our faith is not subject to seasons of man
With our fathers we proclaim

We believe our Lord will come as he said
The land and the sea will give up their dead
His children will reign with Him as their head
We believe
We believe

(Words and music by Nathan DiGesare and Dan Scott)

Originally Posted by awareness

I hope you are wrong Nell. I love my neighbors and don't wish any harm to them ; especially for just a few miscreants that are displeasing God. Most of our neighbors aren't really all that reprehensible.

Not like the pagan days, when Revelation, and Daniel, were written. It all made more sense back then ... then it does today.

Originally Posted by Nell

I hope you all are right.

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

I hope you all are right.

Nell

Originally Posted by Dave

Exactly. They are called business cycles and well documented. It doesn't mean that everything is perfect such as the major recession of 2008 but we go through cycles.

Originally Posted by OBW

And a follow-on to all of the above.

From 1900 through about today, the stock market has gone from 68 to 16,750. That is a 24,532% increase. A little over doubling every 10 years.

And while it is 14 years, from 2000 through 2014 is about 143%. Close to about doubling over 10 years. Even with the drops in there.

So what do the drops tell us? What do they really mean? Doesn't look like judgment.

Originally Posted by Dave

You may or may not know this but historical NT scholars (not just one or two) who have studied many of the ancient written books during early Christianity have noted, "stating a warning not to change the words of books during early Christianity" was often a "red flag" that the book was a forgery. I am not saying that Revelation is a forgery but just because that statement is in Revelation does not give me a lot of confidence as to its authenticity.

Originally Posted by bearbear

I have a friend who worked as an algorithmic trader in wall street who is not really a believer. I showed him Cahn's video on Sid Roth and asked him what he thought about the dates. As we were doing a little research we came across this CNN article from September 29, 2008 :

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/mark...rkets_newyork/

In the same article, it lists two dates as significant crashes of this century:

Sept. 29, 2008
"Stocks skidded Monday, with the Dow slumping nearly 778 points, in the biggest single-day point loss ever, after the House rejected the government's $700 billion bank bailout plan.

The day's loss knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value, the first post-$1 trillion day ever, according to a drop in the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000, the broadest measure of the stock market."

and Sept 17, 2001
"The Dow Jones industrial average (INDU) lost 777.68, surpassing the 684.81 loss on Sept. 17, 2001"

So we looked up those two dates to see what they were on the Hebrew calendar.

Surely enough these two dates fell on Elul 29:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...th=9&year=2008

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...th=9&year=2001

His jaw kind of dropped and he got really silent.

Originally Posted by Nell

To quote BearBear:
God foresaw it would be a controversial book. There are verses in the Revelation which foresee this and warn the reader not to ignore or change the book:
And Chapter 22 verse 9 warns against changing the words of Revelation:

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." ...
Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

How do you know JCahn is in it for the money? How does Awareness know? (Really. How "aware" is Awareness?)

Originally Posted by Nell

OBW, I don't like to respond to you. Every reply from me generates a Straw-man from you, or you read something into a message that isn't there.

Here's the message: Christians live by faith, looking to those who have gone before for encouragement for the future. This would seem to be a message that could be taken at face value. I can't even post some verses from the Bible without your questioning my intent.

Further, I don't know how to respond to a group of Christians on a Christian website, who are questioning the inclusion of the book of the Revelation in the Bible, saying John was on an LSD trip when he wrote it. This is beyond the pale. You have to start somewhere, and for Christians, the Bible is pretty near the top. Hebrews 11 is the best I can do.

It should be obvious by now that all people don't think the same way.

Could you not just ask "Nell, what do you mean by this...?"

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

Hi Dave,

Actually, my question was "If God wanted to warn you about something, anything, how would He do it?" I certainly wouldn't rule out comets, earthquakes, etc., (I did say 'anything') but I had something less catastrophic in mind.

For example, years ago one of my good friends talked to me about a problem she was having. She couldn't decide whether or not it was OK to sleep with her boyfriend. I told her "Some questions you don't have to ask. What does the Bible say?" I didn't need to, or have to, tell her what to do. The Bible speaks for itself. So, God's Word delivered a message to my friend. Perhaps a warning.

So, in that context, God speaks to us through His Word with many messages, which include encouragement, comfort, rebuke, and warnings, to name a few.

When I was in the LC had the experience of hearing a message from someone other than WL, et al, and rejecting it out of hand because it wasn't from the "oracle". It was a good message, but I was taught only to listen to the big "O". Like a dope, I did it.

There are unlikely sources that the Lord may send to speak a message of warning to us. One of my all-time favorites is Baalam's ass. Numbers 22:21-39 tells the story. On this thread, JCahn's rep is worse than that of Baalam's ass. However, if God can use BA to send a messenge, He can also use JCahn. Forget JCahn, but pay attention to the message. File it away. Pray for wisdom and guidance. I'm sure you're doing that anyway.
Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

How do you know JCahn is in it for the money? How does Awareness know? (Really. How "aware" is Awareness?) On what do you base your opinion? Have you researched it? I have. I haven't found anything stating what he does with the proceeds of his book sales yet. Before forming an opinion, and before accusing a brother, there are ways to find out the facts of the matter.

Nell

Originally Posted by awareness

Revelation is a book of visions and nightmares, with a Jesus that does not turn the other check, love neighbors, or enemies. Reason may not apply. Faith is necessary ... to accept a Jesus antithetical to Jesus in the gospels.

Originally Posted by awareness

Calm down sis. Of course I don't know if this John was on LSD. I just know that in those days when storing food was a problem (they didn't have plastic for example, nor refrigerators) ergot poisoning was common.

I don't think Revelation should be in the canon because...
....

Originally Posted by Dave

Nell
Thanks for responding in a good way. I realize we keep saying if what he/she says is consistent with the Bible but everyone quotes scriptures and there is a lot more to it than just being "consistent with the Bible" although that is a beginning. ...

Your question, how would I expect a warning from God? That is a great question! A huge comet detected coming straight at the earth to hit us in 40 days. Numerous significant earthquakes shaking the foundation of the earth creating unparalleled tsunamis. Thousands of sightings of Jesus throughout the world warning us of impending disaster (of course, in this day and age one interview with Jesus descending down from the heavens might do it since the entire world would see it). I don’t think God does things in a small way. He didn’t in the OT and He was dealing with a very small population in the days of Noah compared to what we have today. Thousands of people compared to billions today and look at the billions in China and India who are all unbelievers. Despite significant efforts by Christians in South America etc Christians are not making a lot of progress. The longer He waits the more non-Christians there will be in the world. I know there are verses that essentially say, "Surprise, Surprise it is the end of the world and I am setting up a new kingdom" and "you didn't make it" but there are also verses that indicate otherwise...that there will be calamity prior to setting up the new kingdom.

Originally Posted by Dave

I have to agree with awareness on this issue, Cahn is in it for the money. ... BTW---this is just my opinion!

Originally Posted by Nell

Further, I don't know how to respond to a group of Christians on a Christian website, who are questioning the inclusion of the book of the Revelation in the Bible, saying John was on an LSD trip when he wrote it

Originally Posted by OBW

In any case, just putting unrelated verses on the screen without comment creates the kind of questions that have been raised. And it generates differing opinions as to the intent of putting them there. So I think that my request for comment from the one who made the post is reasonable. It is just too postmodern for us to think that our interpretation is simply it because that is how we would think. Seems we don't all think the same way, therefore it is evident that the intent of the writer is needed.

Originally Posted by OBW

Hebrews speaks of those who followed and trusted God. And the "method" and ways of following God have been spelled out fairly consistently in the OT, then enhanced in the New, along with a new and better way..

Originally Posted by Dave

Jim Bakker is not exactly a ringing endorsement but whatever. I think people should just line up and buy these DVDs. You end up supporting an old time Christian Evangelical favorite and a new Christian Evangelical Messianic favorite. A two for one deal. Maybe these DVDs will provide more insight regarding the Inaugural Breakfast. Or maybe what happened over the last 20 years with Jim Bakker for those who want to know. Who knows what they will provide? I know we have beat this to death but maybe that is the intent of Cahn’s supporters in getting the message out… How about shooting for 600+ posts? That should do it.

Originally Posted by Luke13:1-5

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Originally Posted by aron

Well it was from context of receiving, or believing in, the book of Revelation

Originally Posted by aron

If you give Bakker a $100 "love gift" donation you can get a couple of DVDs of him with Jonathan Cahn.

http://jimbakkershow.com/lovegifts/

Somehow these guys belong on a discussion forum with Witness Lee. It was destiny.

Originally Posted by aron

The title of this thread is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us". God is speaking to us in Jonathan Cahn... when I saw Cahn on YouTube, plugging his book on the Jerry Springer show, um sorry, the Jim Bakker show, I said to myself, Nah. Sorry, I don't have enough "faith"... Jim Bakker and friends are not "God's current speaking to us".

Originally Posted by awareness

I could be wrong, of course. But I thought I got it. That, without faith we can't get or even see Cahn's Bible conflations. Am I wrong .. or lying?

Originally Posted by OBW

Hebrews 11. A good passage.

Is it just an interlude? That is fine. And we need those at times.

But if not . . .

If it is supplied in response to a particular post or comment, it helps to have the portion supplied (quoted — at least the relevant part(s)) so that it has a context and can be understood as a response.

Now if the intent was to follow immediately after my post (and respond to it in some way), then you might not need to quote much, if anything. Unless the reason that it is in response to that post is not evident. And since I do not understand faith as being directly relevant to answering or responding to the things I said, I would need more help.

And if it responds to a more remote post, then help us out. Sometimes the ability to find the relevant post to provide the context is not as simple when the time frame is either long or interrupted by multiple posts.

Originally Posted by awareness

Good post and response sis. Yes, kumbaya.

One more thing about the book of Rev.

Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. . ."

Soon has taken place ...

....

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

ok... I give you this: I do believe God works outside the bible because He is SPIRIT and there IS a lot more that goes on in the Spirit realm than meets the carnal eye.

That said.... based on what you are expressing here Mr A, you think we should embrace Shamanism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, paganism? After all they ALL are spiritual paths that they believe get to GOD...and they all think outside the bible.

(And btw, I TOTALLY GET, that 'Christianity' be it Lee's version, or mainstream 'Christianity' in it's various forms have done a number on people.... confusing them, dividing them, and even deceiving them.)

And if that is the case..........then are you embracing the one world religion? The one world religion is head by the false prophet (the beast of the earth Revelation 13:11....which I believe is the pope whether this one, the next one or the superior general of the Jesuits. The false prophet brings ALL THE RELIGIONS AND IDEALOGIES TOGETHER TO BRING 'PEACE' in the world. His goal from there is to point to the political AC as the MESSIAH of the world, the beast of the sea of Rev 13:1

Yeah... let's throw out the FACT...JUST THE FACT...that Jesus is the ONLY WAY to Abba Father. And while there, let's throw away the FACT that the Shed Blood of Jesus and the Power of His Holy Spirit changes our stinking thinking...

Imagine there's no heaven... no hell below us.... uh-huh...
Kumbaya my friend... kumbaya....

Love ya still!
Carol

Originally Posted by bearbear

God foresaw it would be a controversial book. There are verses in the Revelation which foresee this and warn the reader not to ignore or change the book:

In Chapter 1 verse 3, it mentions that those who read Revelation will be blessed:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it.."

And Chapter 22 verse 9 warns against changing the words of Revelation:

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Sorry for my brief hiatus as I've been busy working on the launch of a verse memorization game and website

Originally Posted by awareness

I am serious. Before the invention of the printing press the book of Revelation was in and out of the canon like a yo-yo. It was the printing press, not God, that fixed it into today's Bible.

But then again maybe God was behind it, by being behind man's evolution into the technological age ... and Revelation being fixed in the canon was a by-product ... an after thought.

Still, the book of Revelation has vexed Christians ever since the 2nd century, when it was introduced along with many other apocalyptic literature.

Originally Posted by awareness

Just quoting the Bible doesn't mean that's what God is doing. Lee cooked up God's Economy from the Bible but does that mean that's what God is doing?

Now Cahn has cooked something up from the Bible. But again, is that what God is actually doing?

Some say they see a pattern of God's activity with the blood moons. Does God hold to patterns? Does God say, I must do things according to the blood moons?

It's all kind of funny. And like OBW pointed out, very Cargo Cultish. Even as literate and educated as we are today, compared to the primitives of the cargo cults on New Guinea, we're still operating from our primitive reptilian brain, when it comes to God.

We really are funny little critters, with our extreme desperate efforts to weave God into OUR lives. When God is already involved in everything that is going on.....

And even tho it's non-canonical doesn't mean it's not what God is doing.

God is doing everything. It is we that don't see it. So in our ABSENCE of seeing God, we end up looking for little scraps of what we think we see of what God is doing ... when all we need to do is open our eyes to the world and universe.

Me thinks we are looking way to narrow by looking only in the Bible. The Bible was written by the hands of men (and only men) when God wrote the whole universe, with His OWN hands.

That's the real WAKE UP CALL.

Talk about putting God into a box! The Bible is that box.

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness, please tell me you're not serious.

To say "There's nothing certain about the book of Revelation..." is not true. One thing is certain: Revelation IS in the Bible.

Originally Posted by Dave

I realize we keep saying if what he/she says is consistent with the Bible but everyone quotes scriptures and there is a lot more to it than just being "consistent with the Bible" although that is a beginning.

Originally Posted by awareness

There's nothing certain about the book of Revelation. Since its inception it was debated as to whether or not it should be in the canon because it was thought that it would cause nothing but havoc and confusion ... and it has. Plus, all attempts to decode it have failed.

Originally Posted by Nell

Dave,

I did all that too. I was just as deceived as you were, maybe more. Lee said "follow ME" and like a dope, I did it.

Here's your key phrase "I was doing everything I could to further the "kingdom" of God with WL at the helm...". We were following the wrong person. We shouldn't have followed Lee and we shouldn't "follow Cahn". Is anyone suggesting that we follow Cahn? No. Is CAHN suggesting this? No.

Who should we follow? Jesus. Period. In fact, that's Cahn's message. Get right with Jesus. So, if even if you wanted to follow Cahn you'd have to follow God.

I'm a true believer in Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. Cahn is not real to me. God is real to me. I sure hope He doesn't want me to go out and start shouting "repent America". I really hope He doesn't

What do you know of "my agreement with Cahn?" I keep saying it: forget Cahn. Is Cahn's message consistent with the Bible? If so, believe the Bible. Was Lee consistent with the Bible? Sometimes. Men are not "right" or "wrong" of themselves. Lee was ONLY "right" when he lined up with the Bible. Did that make Lee "right"? No. It was the Bible that was right. Lee just agreed with the Bible, or he didn't.

Lee is not authoritative. Cahn is not authoritative. You are not authoritative. I am not authoritative. OBW is not authoritative. The Bible is authoritative. Period. All of it. (...awareness...even the Revelation).

Here's a question for you, Dave. If God wanted to warn you about something, anything, how would He do it?

Nell

Originally Posted by Dave

We were all mesmerized by WL and the writings of WN. I know that for a number of years I met almost every morning and evening pray reading, calling "Oh Lord Jesus", studying the Life Studies of WL of various books of the Bible, listening to audio tapes of WL etc. I also marched in the streets of different cities wearing shirts with "Jesus Is Lord" etc. printed on them. I attended several conferences on books of the Bible in Anaheim with WL. I met with WL, had dinner with him etc. One time I stood on the table in a cafeteria of a University I was attending and preached the gospel to other students during lunch hour. I was a true believer and I was doing everything I could to further the "kingdom" of God with WL at the helm leading us forth, unfortunately, as we discovered too late, into the wilderness. Prior to WL I was studying for the Ministry. During this entire time, like many of you, I sought the riches of Christ so it is not like I gave up my faith while I was listening to WL but it is just that leaders can take us astray such as those Paul wrote about in various epistles e.g. 1 Corinthians... even though at the same time I was doing everything a Christian should do--praying, reading my Bible, meeting with other believers, preaching the gospel etc.

Originally Posted by Dave

The question is for those who believe in what Cahn is saying---how real is to you? Is it just an argument/discussion or is it something you are going to live your life for? On the streets, at the universities, meetings with others etc. Are you a "true" believer? It seems like you might want to get out into the streets and start shouting "Repent America!"...what is the outcome of your agreement with Cahn?

Originally Posted by awareness

There's nothing certain about the book of Revelation. Since its inception it was debated as to whether or not it should be in the canon because it was thought that it would cause nothing but havoc and confusion ... and it has. Plus, all attempts to decode it have failed.

Originally Posted by Dave

The question is for those who believe in what Cahn is saying---how real is to you? Is it just an argument/discussion or is it something you are going to live your life for? On the streets, at the universities, meetings with others etc. Are you a "true" believer? It seems like you might want to get out into the streets and start shouting "Repent America!"...what is the outcome of your agreement with Cahn?

Originally Posted by Nell

Of this we can be certain: one day, on this earth, there WILL be a theocracy.

Revelation 11:15 ...The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!

Nell

Originally Posted by awareness

I once was convinced Lee had the mind of Christ, but was wrong. I'm thinking it's likely the same for Cahn.

Originally Posted by Nell

Revelation 11:15 ...The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by zeek

In my opinion, we've been on this thread for a while. The "mind of Christ" is a welcome digression from the OP thesis. Paul claimed to have it. Do any of the 40,000 Christian denominations including Witness Lee's Local Churches have it today? Hard to say. Probably not. Reading I Corinthians 2 it seems that Paul is identifying his consciousness with the transcendent consciousness of God: the Divine Spirit syncretized [a transliteration of the Greek word Paul uses] with the spirit of anthropos. It's a claim that is perennially being made by some, believed by some and never been conclusively proved by any. Therefore, I see it as a claim that requires faith. In any case, I seek the Mind of Christ, but, I do not claim to possess it and I am agnostic and skeptical about Paul and anyone who claims it today.

Originally Posted by awareness

And more on topic, should we just blindly accept that Jonathan Cahn has the mind of Christ?

Originally Posted by awareness

We don't know the mind of God so we can't know who or what God is judging, if anything, or why.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by OBW

It has been a while now, but I read through this general portion of 1 Corinthians a few times a while back and began to question some of the assumptions concerning what Paul is talking about here. For starters, who is the "we" that he is mostly referring to?

Originally Posted by OBW

The "truth" that I see emerging from much of the NT is that there really are teachers that have more insight than the rest of us do. That have been gifted to understand and teach.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Nell

You neglected to say "In my opinion, that is why Cahn got it wrong."

Then, "God may be upset with America for its unwavering support for Israel but, in my opinion, not for the reasons cited by Cahn."

Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

This is what Cahn called putting God in a box. You could be right, but it's still just an opinion. Until all is manifest, we have interpretations, thoughts, etc., but, in my opinion, it would be better not to speak with authority about who is right and who is wrong. Who knows God's reasoning but God himself?

BTW, is God "upset with America for its unwavering support for Israel"? How do you know that? I didn't know that. We are told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. It would seem that God would be upset if we didn't have unwavering support for Israel. Hummmmm.

Nell

Originally Posted by Dave

...That is why Cahn got it wrong. God may be upset with America for its unwavering support for Israel but not for the reasons cited by Cahn.

Originally Posted by awareness

Surely you jest sister. Cahn was presented in the OP. Sure I blundered a couple of times. Maybe more. UntoHim called me out for it. I was wrong. Mea Culpa.

But by a large we're talking about Cahn. And because we're already gun-shy, from the LC, we'er very skeptical and critical of charismatic MEN. And why not?

Originally Posted by awareness

You're characterization of us as attack dogs has no basis in reality. There's no history of us jumping a newbie and chewing him or her up and spitting them out.

In fact, Dave is a newbie and it is you that is calling him an attack dog. Just who is the attack dog.

Originally Posted by awareness

I thought we were doing fine in our discussions. We were finding out about repenting and returning. And even a claim that we can, leave the physical realm, and enter the spiritual realm, while still living in the physical realm. That sure got my attention. I'd like to do that.

Originally Posted by awareness

Sure, it looks like Gnosticism. And I pointed out if so it's Jewish Gnosticism. But I also pointed out that none of our criticism means that Cahn is not a seer. If Cahn is actually seeing what God is doing today all of our criticisms amounts to nothing.

So why take it personal sis? It's in God's hands. Right?

Originally Posted by awareness

Now let me have some fun nipping at yer heels ... Dogs do like to play.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Ohio

Listen Nell, it's really simple, you said in your last post, "the men who do the majority of the posting behave like a pack of attack dogs when someone presents a topic with which they disagree." Since I have the most posts here, I posted my disagreement. You called me an "attack dog." Shame on you!

You also made this all about men. If you have a problem with what OBW has written about Johnathan Cahn, then take it up with him. Cordially please.

How would you like it if I grouped "all you crazy women" together? How would you like it if I called "all you crazy women" a flock of vultures?

That's right. You don't like it. So stop doing it yourself.

Peace.

Originally Posted by Nell

This is a forum where Christians come to discuss a topic related to Christian issues, right? Yet the men who do the majority of the posting behave like a pack of attack dogs ...

Originally Posted by Ohio

I totally disagree with this post by Nell.

This is a gross misrepresentation of this forum and its members.

No forum member "attacked" you nor the gospel of God, rather they disagreed with your message from Cahn.

It's a shame you have made this personal and discriminatory against men.

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

Why did UntoHim feel it necessary to weigh-in? Why was I being "protected"? Why was I being flamed? Why was I being barraged with straw-man arguments? Feels like an attack to me. Maybe your standards for an "attack" are different from mine, but please don't tell me that I wasn't attacked.

There are ways to disagree without being flamed, and without straw-man arguments. We are all Christians here. Can we not behave as such?

Discriminate against men? Really? There are about 2 women who post on this forum. All the rest are men....right? Is that discrimination against men or is it simply stating the obvious? I could have played the "discrimination against women" card, but I don't believe that to be the case.

Don't make this into something it's not. Can I not respond to a post without a straw-man being stood up?

Do you believe the teachings of Jesus Christ are in line with flaming, straw-man arguments, and complaints of protecting women as stated in UntoHim's weigh-in? I don't. Why not speak to that point...without flaming...without straw-men...? The obvious answer is no. "You have not so learned Christ."

This is not about Cahn, but about who we are as believers. The posts on this forum are the gospel we preach. This is a good place to discuss all kinds of Christian topics, but the first thing to be displayed in everything we say is Jesus and a love for the brothers.

Yes. I called out OBW...as he has done to me many times. It's a two-way street.

Nell

Originally Posted by Ohio

I totally disagree with this post by Nell.

This is a gross misrepresentation of this forum and its members.

No forum member "attacked" you nor the gospel of God, rather they disagreed with your message from Cahn.

It's a shame you have made this personal and discriminatory against men.

Originally Posted by Nell

Here's what I continue to question: Why is this kind of "discipline" necessary? This is a forum where Christians come to discuss a topic related to Christian issues, right? Yet the men who do the majority of the posting behave like a pack of attack dogs when someone presents a topic with which they disagree.

Unto, I'm not telling you something you don't know. The reason people don't post on this forum is because of this kind of garbage...poor treatment by Christian men with a pack mentality who say one thing and do another.
Nell

Originally Posted by UntoHim