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04-19-2018 03:04 AM
aron
Re: Theocracy or Autocracy in the Local Churches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Witness LeeWe have to know that today in the church we . . .like to honor God’s authority as our government, and this is what we call theocracy, Gods government.
Witness Lee said this but his imposition of his 'unspiritual' son Philip as office manager at LSM proves otherwise.

I recently read a website encomium lauding Dong Yu Lan as God's chosen vessel of grace, God's recent 'man of the hour' to bring the riches of heaven to earth. It noted that DYL had ''raised up 900 churches around the world, and this proves that'' yada-yada.

It reminded me how WL used that tactic all the time. He'd point out A and say how it proved B. But if you live by the sword you'll die by it. Philip and Timothy prove that papa Witness wasn't fit to be elder in a local assembly, much less MOTA (assuming such exists).

Witness Lee's practice showed honor to family ties above God's authority.
04-19-2018 01:07 AM
clever sister
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I watched them at LSM for years "seed" the congregation with their bias against ones like Titus Chu, supposedly for being "ambitious" and "having his own ministry."

Was not Paul and the other apostles all ambitious to serve the Lord? Was not Paul and the other apostles all desirous of being faithful to the ministry the Lord gave them?

This is one way how they "know" the feeling of the body.
Rebelliours ones were "ambitious", anyone else who left was "offended"
04-18-2018 07:47 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Yes, haha! On the afaithfulword site they kept saying "the feeling of the body" when justifying quarantine (which is the 2nd topic on their page). Who exactly have they conferred with to get this feeling? Just those blended brothers who coincidentally also run LSM? Got it! Give me a break!
I watched them at LSM for years "seed" the congregation with their bias against ones like Titus Chu, supposedly for being "ambitious" and "having his own ministry."

Was not Paul and the other apostles all ambitious to serve the Lord? Was not Paul and the other apostles all desirous of being faithful to the ministry the Lord gave them?

This is one way how they "know" the feeling of the body.
04-18-2018 06:40 PM
A little brother
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I believe you are correct as well as Drake, because the flow of the Spirit is likened to blood flowing in the body. There is a thing called the "feeling of the Body". For example our head makes the decisions but it values the "input" from the little toe when it gets hurt. Drake is also correct I believe for the simple reason that God is God and our opinions are sometimes more of a distraction or hindrance, and there should be some limits and controls on who can contribute to the decision making process.
May be it's time to update the LC teaching on Nicolaitans - It's wrong to have hierarchy in the fallen Christianity, it's perfectly fine for the LC because only it is the true body of Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
This in itself is a lesson - if we contribute our opinion, be prepared to take responsibility for it. Many people in the church like to give their opinion but do not like being burdened with the responsibility of it. Maybe those who don't like what the elders are doing would like to become elders themselves and show everyone how it should be done?
I am afraid this willingness to take burden is called "ambition" by WL.

There are so many double standards in the LC teachings that the "authority" can simply pick whichever to its own advantage.
04-18-2018 06:24 PM
Indiana
Re:Theocracy or Autocracy in the Local Churches

Witness LeeWe have to know that today in the church we don’t exercise autocracy, a dictatorship; or democracy, according to people’s opinion; but we like to honor God’s authority as our government, and this is what we call theocracy, Gods government.
04-18-2018 05:00 PM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
If we were playing Jeopardy my response would be "What is the feeling of the Body?"
That's what happens when you turn you life over to a book publisher.
04-18-2018 04:49 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I don't agree. There is no "government"- just the body. The feeling of the Body of Christ should be listened to and seriously considered in most, if not every, situation. We're all members of the Body- so why are we following a few men's decisions instead of Christ in us? What is the harm at all in taking a vote? If anything, I feel if you gave people a chance the pray about it- the majority decision would be an even clearer one- right?
I believe you are correct as well as Drake, because the flow of the Spirit is likened to blood flowing in the body. There is a thing called the "feeling of the Body". For example our head makes the decisions but it values the "input" from the little toe when it gets hurt. Drake is also correct I believe for the simple reason that God is God and our opinions are sometimes more of a distraction or hindrance, and there should be some limits and controls on who can contribute to the decision making process.

Democracy is a funny thing. There is "true democracy" and there are variants of it, ranging from dictatorship-like democracy to almost anarchy. In a successful democracy there must be a limit on who can have a say and who cannot. In Roman democracy for example, a successful democracy for hundreds of years, only people of a certain class and gender could have a say. This is often both practical and necessary.

In the life of Christ, I imagine his closest 12 had the most influence over his decisions (if any). Since a larger group of disciples accompanied them beyond the 12, and then further, the crowds who were devoted to him (for his miracles or otherwise), clearly not everyone in his "church", had the ability to contribute their opinion. Christ did not, gather His disciples around and say "okay guys, I don't know what we should do tomorrow, let's take a vote". But the disciples clearly had a "vote" such as when they told Christ to send the crowds away so they could buy food. His response was "why don't you guys feed them?". This in itself is a lesson - if we contribute our opinion, be prepared to take responsibility for it. Many people in the church like to give their opinion but do not like being burdened with the responsibility of it. Maybe those who don't like what the elders are doing would like to become elders themselves and show everyone how it should be done?
04-18-2018 03:38 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
If we were playing Jeopardy my response would be "What is the feeling of the Body?"
Yes, haha! On the afaithfulword site they kept saying "the feeling of the body" when justifying quarantine (which is the 2nd topic on their page). Who exactly have they conferred with to get this feeling? Just those blended brothers who coincidentally also run LSM? Got it! Give me a break!
04-18-2018 11:46 AM
Terry
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
The only feelings they take into consideration are those of their boss at headquarters.
If we were playing Jeopardy my response would be "What is the feeling of the Body?"
04-18-2018 07:57 AM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Maybe we can represent the ministry in a special edition of "Affirmation & Critique".

One article: "Women's roles: 1915 versus 2015". Ask what roles Jessie Penn- Lewis, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Ruth Lee and ME Barber might have in the modern 'church life'.
Here is a recent notice.

There will be a sisters' blending conference for the Northeast churches*on Saturday, April 21, from 9am to 6pm at the Jamaica Estates hall of the church in NYC. In April of last year, over 450 sisters attended. In November there was another such gathering and over 380 attended. A light breakfast will be provided beginning at 8:15am, as well as lunch and dinner. Child care will also be provided but* sisters who are bringing children should expect to participate in the child care service on a rotating basis in coordination with the local sisters. May the Lord bless all the churches in the Northeast and the Mid-Atlantic through this gathering.*

Would ME Barber be allowed as a speaker at this blending conference?
04-17-2018 08:07 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I understand- I would just think they would take the members feelings into consideration when making decisions.
I thought so too. Little testimony from my last days in the LC back in 2005. I was a deacon working with the elders for years. A new "leader" had been sent to town from our Cleveland headquarters, and he soon wanted to completely shake up the meeting structure. I pushed back on these changes citing feedback I had from the saints directly. He over-ruled my concerns while the other elders remained silent.

Later on I privately talked to him. At that point I had already stopped meeting with the elders, so he was somewhat at ease with me. In a statement I will never forget, he told me, "sometimes we need to shock the saints." I felt by then that some of the saints had frankly been electrocuted.

His attitude was callous, and something I had become familiar with for many years -- leaders in the LC never take the members' feelings into consideration when making decisions. The only feelings they take into consideration are those of their boss at headquarters.
04-17-2018 07:31 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
There is an administration in the church by a plurality of elders/shepherds and deacons. Never is one man exalted above the others, except for Jesus Christ.
I understand- I would just think they would take the members feelings into consideration when making decisions.
04-17-2018 05:55 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I don't agree. There is no "government"- just the body. The feeling of the Body of Christ should be listened to and seriously considered in most, if not every, situation. We're all members of the Body- so why are we following a few men's decisions instead of Christ in us? What is the harm at all in taking a vote? If anything, I feel if you gave people a chance the pray about it- the majority decision would be an even clearer one- right?
There is an administration in the church by a plurality of elders/shepherds and deacons. Never is one man exalted above the others, except for Jesus Christ.
04-17-2018 05:00 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Church government is not a democracy. A ministry is not a democracy. Your opinion on what they should or should not do is irrelevant... and so is mine.
But, feel free to carry on.
As a member of the Body of Christ, as someone with access to the Holy Spirit- I strongly disagree.

That being said, your opinion is unfortunately valued too

Kidding....
04-17-2018 04:58 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Church government is not a democracy. A ministry is not a democracy. Your opinion on what they should or should not do is irrelevant... and so is mine.
But, feel free to carry on.
I don't agree. There is no "government"- just the body. The feeling of the Body of Christ should be listened to and seriously considered in most, if not every, situation. We're all members of the Body- so why are we following a few men's decisions instead of Christ in us? What is the harm at all in taking a vote? If anything, I feel if you gave people a chance the pray about it- the majority decision would be an even clearer one- right?
04-17-2018 03:57 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Church government is not a democracy. A ministry is not a democracy. Your opinion on what they should or should not do is irrelevant... and so is mine.
If the church was a theocracy as you say, then why should Paul instruct both Timothy and Titus on who was qualified for leadership positions.

Witness Lee said the LC's were a theocracy. but take away the Theos (God) and we were all left with autocracy. Lee had little concern for the actual qualifications of those elders he appointed. Why should he? His only concern was loyalty.

Real shepherds who love the Lord and the church of God need not apply.
04-17-2018 03:49 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I see no scriptural support for church government as a republic. It is a theocracy with the Spirit at the top.
Sounds like a caliphate with an imam on the top.
04-17-2018 03:34 PM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I earlier mentioned that the RecV footnotes contradict each other. One says that the psalmist crushing his enemy's skull and bathing his feet in his enemy's blood is a picture of Christ defeating Satan, while another footnote says that the Christian sentiment is to forgive your enemy and therefore the psalmist's violent antagonism is merely vain concepts.

How is that representing the ministry? Can we critique the ministry and represent it?
Maybe we can represent the ministry in a special edition of "Affirmation & Critique".

One article: "Women's roles: 1915 versus 2015". Ask what roles Jessie Penn- Lewis, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Ruth Lee and ME Barber might have in the modern 'church life'.

And another on contradictory RecV footnotes in the Psalms, and a comparison of WL's reception of the Psalms compared to the reception in the NT.

I think we might begin to give an contemporary representation of the ministry today.
04-17-2018 02:57 PM
Koinonia
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I see no scriptural support for church government as a republic.

It is a theocracy with the Spirit at the top.
Did the Spirit quarantine Titus Chu?
04-17-2018 01:26 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Church government should be a republic, with their leaders approved by the Spirit and the saints, and not some self-assumed oligarchy run by unnamed Blendeds in Anaheim.
I see no scriptural support for church government as a republic.

It is a theocracy with the Spirit at the top.
04-17-2018 01:22 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Church government is not a democracy. A ministry is not a democracy. Your opinion on what they should or should not do is irrelevant... and so is mine.

But, feel free to carry on.

Drake
Church government should be a republic, with their leaders approved by the Spirit and the saints, and not some self-assumed oligarchy run by unnamed Blendeds in Anaheim.

How does the President of a Publishing House in Anaheim get to excommunicate ministers and elders in Ohio and Ontario?
04-17-2018 01:17 PM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Sure, and they did.

The question here is not one of right to publish... the issue is representation. Does this or that represent the ministry. If the answer is yes, then all is well. If the answer is no and someone insists that they are representing the ministry and want to publish even elsewhere then things do not go as well. Usually.

Drake
I earlier mentioned that the RecV footnotes contradict each other. One says that the psalmist crushing his enemy's skull and bathing his feet in his enemy's blood is a picture of Christ defeating Satan, while another footnote says that the Christian sentiment is to forgive your enemy and therefore the psalmist's violent antagonism is merely vain concepts.

How is that representing the ministry? Can we critique the ministry and represent it?
04-17-2018 01:05 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Yes- all the localities should have voted and agreed to accept the decided outcome with no fear of backlash. That’s the healthy way- right? There was probably blame on both sides but looking on- the blame on the BB’s is clear- they created division with their need to control. How “blended” are the brothers if they only represent one way of thinking? What they did to “quarantine” an entire church is an enormous offense. They try to justify it on “afaithfulword” but it doesn’t justify their actions IMO.

I wonder what would happen if they included a comment section on their faithfulword site? Ha!!
Church government is not a democracy. A ministry is not a democracy. Your opinion on what they should or should not do is irrelevant... and so is mine.

But, feel free to carry on.

Drake
04-17-2018 12:59 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
This is all hogwash!

Titus Chu ministered to LC's in greater Ohio area since the 1960's, long before many of the Blendeds came along. Then in ~2005 the Blendeds got to decide that TC "does not represent the ministry." Whose ministry is it anyways? Since when does LSM get to decide what "ministry" is representative?"
Time is irrelevant.
04-17-2018 11:34 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
This is all hogwash!

Titus Chu ministered to LC's in greater Ohio area since the 1960's, long before many of the Blendeds came along. Then in ~2005 the Blendeds got to decide that TC "does not represent the ministry." Whose ministry is it anyways? Since when does LSM get to decide what "ministry" is representative?"
Yes- all the localities should have voted and agreed to accept the decided outcome with no fear of backlash. That’s the healthy way- right? There was probably blame on both sides but looking on- the blame on the BB’s is clear- they created division with their need to control. How “blended” are the brothers if they only represent one way of thinking? What they did to “quarantine” an entire church is an enormous offense. They try to justify it on “afaithfulword” but it doesn’t justify their actions IMO.

I wonder what would happen if they included a comment section on their faithfulword site? Ha!!
04-17-2018 10:45 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Sure, and they did.

The question here is not one of right to publish... the issue is representation. Does this or that represent the ministry. If the answer is yes, then all is well. If the answer is no and someone insists that they are representing the ministry and want to publish even elsewhere then things do not go as well. Usually.

Drake
This is all hogwash!

Titus Chu ministered to LC's in greater Ohio area since the 1960's, long before many of the Blendeds came along. Then in ~2005 the Blendeds got to decide that TC "does not represent the ministry." Whose ministry is it anyways? Since when does LSM get to decide what "ministry" is representative?"
04-17-2018 10:34 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Sure, and they did.

The question here is not one of right to publish... the issue is representation. Does this or that represent the ministry. If the answer is yes, then all is well. If the answer is no and someone insists that they are representing the ministry and want to publish even elsewhere then things do not go as well. Usually.

Drake
You believe the blended brothers took their control too far?

I'm not aware of whether or not those brothers wanted LSM to publish their work and I can understand if they did, and it was decided that it wasn't a representative of the ministry- how they could be denied that right. But, I also know there was a power struggle with real estate at hand, and can't help but think that was an issue in the decision as well.

But, if they wanted to publish their own work with another publisher, and still be an elder in a locality- that should have been fine, given they were writing sound Biblical teachings. There is nothing in the Bible that I'm aware of that would justify how far the BB's took the situation.
04-17-2018 10:11 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I understand what you're saying, but I also think you're missing a main point that Chu and Dong, and whoever else cared to write something, would be discouraged to by LSM even if they found their own publisher. I don't think it's biblical to have an elder that is prohibited from publishing their own work outside of a certain publishing company (LSM.)

Many people think they've take things too far by limiting other elders or members in that way.
Sure, and they did.

The question here is not one of right to publish... the issue is representation. Does this or that represent the ministry. If the answer is yes, then all is well. If the answer is no and someone insists that they are representing the ministry and want to publish even elsewhere then things do not go as well. Usually.

Drake
04-17-2018 10:02 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Here the thing aron.

You can publish whatever pleases your pea-pickin heart. You just can't publish something and claim it is part of a ministry if that ministry determines it is not. That is the exclusive right of the ministry.

Just like if you wrote a song and published it as a "Lennon-McCartney" tune. You can't do that.

The Living Stream Ministry is not obligated to publish anyone's writings nor are they bound to let authors publish under their banner. You may not like it but it doesn't really matter if you do or not because it is not your area of responsibility. You can go to Zondervan and ask them to publish your writings.... good luck with that. Or you can go to Titus Chu and ask him to publish your writings under his banner... good luck that too.

As for control, who is controlling you? Besides, given full liberty to read the authors who LSM determined not to publish you have not read a single one of them even though they have published their own books. Why not? Were they not worthy to you? If LSM had published the writings of Chu and Dong you certainly would not have contributed to the effort by buying their books else you would have already bought them. You haven't bought even one so why do you expect LSM to print a ready supply? That is why I say you don't really care about this "one publication" issue, it is just a convenient narrative hammer... if it wasn't this it would be something else because you have other issues.

Drake
I understand what you're saying, but I also think you're missing a main point that Chu and Dong, and whoever else cared to write something, would be discouraged to by LSM even if they found their own publisher. I don't think it's biblical to have an elder that is prohibited from publishing their own work outside of a certain publishing company (LSM.)

Many people think they've take things too far by limiting other elders or members in that way.
04-16-2018 07:49 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Lee was so good at controlling people, he could say the sky was blue, then two weeks later say it was purple and nobody would point out the discrepancy. I mean, purple is sorta blue. . . as one sister remarked brightly after the latest 'flow' from Anaheim was announced, and sat heavily upon us in the room, "Well, it's the church!"

But Drake has never noticed any of that control. All he's experienced is the 'oneness'.
Lee famously said, "Who did I control, I can't even control a mosquito!"

The comment is totally deceptive, as if the inability to control biting insects translates to human minions and lackeys.

Reminds me of those Farmers Insurance commercials. They claim to cover all of the outrageous and the freakish, like being attacked by mountain lions, thus assuring you of their boundless protection. What they are not telling you is that they are not covering the #1 source of home damage -- external ground water. Any insurance company will gladly cover a falling piano or alien invasion; what are the chances of that?
04-16-2018 01:29 PM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
So Titus Chu and others were only quarantined because they wanted LSM to publish their books?
The Living Stream Ministry of Witness Lee is about control, at the core of its DNA. Just like Watchman Nee couldn't brook any peers (e.g., Leland Wang), neither could Witness Lee (T. Austin Sparks). Lackeys, sycophants and yes-men only could apply.

It goes to publishing, relations, and everything else that matters. My LC elder tried to hold a regional conference on one of Witness Lee's books. He was told, "Re-speak the latest conference". Someone flew out from Anaheim to 'help'.

Btw I've read books by both Chu, and Dong, as well as Nee and Lee. But that's a different topic, isn't it.

Lee was so good at controlling people, he could say the sky was blue, then two weeks later say it was purple and nobody would point out the discrepancy. I mean, purple is sorta blue. . . as one sister remarked brightly after the latest 'flow' from Anaheim was announced, and sat heavily upon us in the room, "Well, it's the church!"

But Drake has never noticed any of that control. All he's experienced is the 'oneness'.
04-16-2018 11:37 AM
Terry
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
And a major issue for me is that LC leaders discourage members from even reading other books. That is control.
For me it's making LSM publications the basis of fellowship.
04-16-2018 11:14 AM
Koinonia
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
So Titus Chu and others were only quarantined because they wanted LSM to publish their books?

I don't think so.
And a major issue for me is that LC leaders discourage members from even reading other books. That is control.
04-16-2018 10:56 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Here the thing aron.

You can publish whatever pleases your pea-pickin heart. You just can't publish something and claim it is part of a ministry if that ministry determines it is not. That is the exclusive right of the ministry.

Just like if you wrote a song and published it as a "Lennon-McCartney" tune. You can't do that.

The Living Stream Ministry is not obligated to publish anyone's writings nor are they bound to let authors publish under their banner. You may not like it but it doesn't really matter if you do or not because it is not your area of responsibility. You can go to Zondervan and ask them to publish your writings.... good luck with that. Or you can go to Titus Chu and ask him to publish your writings under his banner... good luck that too.

As for control, who is controlling you? Besides, given full liberty to read the authors who LSM determined not to publish you have not read a single one of them even though they have published their own books. Why not? Were they not worthy to you? If LSM had published the writings of Chu and Dong you certainly would not have contributed to the effort by buying their books else you would have already bought them. You haven't bought even one so why do you expect LSM to make a ready supply? That is why I say you don't really care about this "one publication" issue, it is just a convenient narrative hammer... if it wasn't this it would be something else because you have other issues.

Drake
So Titus Chu and others were only quarantined because they wanted LSM to publish their books?

I don't think so.
04-16-2018 10:24 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Yes, Drake has me pegged clean - it is a pet peeve of mine. I object to anyone dominating the flock, telling us what we can and can't think, what we can and can't publish, what we can and can't say in gatherings of the faithful.
Here the thing aron.

You can publish whatever pleases your pea-pickin heart. You just can't publish something and claim it is part of a ministry if that ministry determines it is not. That is the exclusive right of the ministry.

Just like if you wrote a song and published it as a "Lennon-McCartney" tune. You can't do that.

The Living Stream Ministry is not obligated to publish anyone's writings nor are they bound to let authors publish under their banner. You may not like it but it doesn't really matter if you do or not because it is not your area of responsibility. You can go to Zondervan and ask them to publish your writings.... good luck with that. Or you can go to Titus Chu and ask him to publish your writings under his banner... good luck that too.

As for control, who is controlling you? Besides, given full liberty to read the authors who LSM determined not to publish you have not read a single one of them even though they have published their own books. Why not? Were they not worthy to you? If LSM had published the writings of Chu and Dong you certainly would not have contributed to the effort by buying their books else you would have already bought them. You haven't bought even one so why do you expect LSM to print a ready supply? That is why I say you don't really care about this "one publication" issue, it is just a convenient narrative hammer... if it wasn't this it would be something else because you have other issues.

Drake
04-16-2018 09:53 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I don't have any Milton or Shakespeare either, but I object to any "Farenheit 451" dystopian regime telling me whether or not they can be on my shelves. You know, to avoid confusion. If people read the wrong books they might get ideas, and book sales might drop.
I'm here thinking about how far we should go without hijacking Kumbaya's thread, so I looked at her 1st two posts -- LSM selling books and LSM dominating everything -- and determined we are right on topic. So many recent posts on this forum are about LC oppression and bandage, whether it be what books can be read or who to marry and spend your life with.

The "good news" gospel of Jesus Christ is all about liberty, setting the prisoners free. We could summarize the chief complaint about the recovery is stealing that liberty and returning us to bondage. As a young person back in the 70's, I was captivated by the liberty and joy of the Spirit. In Christ I had a liberty never before even thought of. How things have changed!

Paul rebuked Peter in Antipas (Gal 2.11) for returning to bondage. He concluded his rebuke saying, "For if I rebuild what I tore down, I make myself a transgressor." (2.18) Isn't this exactly what those in Anaheim have done? They rebuilt what they once tore down, and now we are here exposing their transgressions.
04-16-2018 09:07 AM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Shall I also count how many Witness Lee books I have on my shelf?
I don't have any Milton or Shakespeare either, but I object to any "Farenheit 451" dystopian regime telling me whether or not they can be on my shelves. You know, to avoid confusion. If people read the wrong books they might get ideas, and book sales might drop.

Yes, Drake has me pegged clean - it is a pet peeve of mine. I object to anyone dominating the flock, telling us what we can and can't think, what we can and can't publish, what we can and can't say in gatherings of the faithful.

And it's a peeve of mine just as "KJV only" is with Drake, and for the same reason - it's institutionalized stupidity. God gave us hearts and also brains.

Back to the RecV footnote issue - it's not just that they are apparently contradictory, and arguably questionable. It's that this "reading", as Drake calls it, is placed in these captive assemblies as if it were from God. It cannot be questioned, examined critically, or potentially be subject to correction. As soon as one does that with the ministry, and begins to treat it like the output of any other author, the whole house of cards might come tumbling down.

In that sense it is exactly like the 'KJV only' issue. God's oracle has spoken; how dare we mortals question?
04-16-2018 08:22 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

“Right. Or, like those who say there is One Publication Policy, because, well . . . to avoid confusion. . . you know.”

aron,

You are confounding, as is typical, “one publication” with “one’s reading”. A ministry will publish what they believe is according to their ministry and readers will read whatever they want to. Both sides are free to make that choice in free societies.

Yet, I don’t believe you really give a hoot about the one publication you just use it as a hammer to drive pet peeve nails. Seriously, how many Titus Chu or Dong books are on your personal book shelf right now? Count them. Honestly, how many of either of those author’s books have you even read?

I suspect zero.... to avoid confusion... we’ll, you know.

Drake
Shall I also count how many Witness Lee books I have on my shelf?
04-16-2018 06:50 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

-1

“Right. Or, like those who say there is One Publication Policy, because, well . . . to avoid confusion. . . you know.”

aron,

You are confounding, as is typical, “one publication” with “one’s reading”. A ministry will publish what they believe is according to their ministry and readers will read whatever they want to. Both sides are free to make that choice in free societies.

Yet, I don’t believe you really give a hoot about the one publication you just use it as a hammer to drive pet peeve nails. Seriously, how many Titus Chu or Dong books are on your personal book shelf right now? Count them. Honestly, how many of either of those author’s books have you even read?

I suspect zero.... to avoid confusion... we’ll, you know.

Drake
04-16-2018 06:28 AM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Right. Or, like those who say the KJV is the only legitimate translation because it is the text we have received.
Right. Or, like those who say there is One Publication Policy, because, well . . . to avoid confusion. . . you know.

I noted that in one place the RecV footnotes show the psalmist crushing the skull of his enemy, and dipping his feet in his blood, as being Christ in His victory over Satan. Yet elsewhere in psalm such sentiments are panned in footnotes as unchristian and not revelatory, but "fallen human concept."

When I pointed out the discrepancy, Evangelical replied, "Perhaps this is so" but the footnotes fo not say 'perhaps', nor do the Lords Recovery leaders allow members to question ministry assertions, no matter how contradictory they appear to be.
04-16-2018 03:15 AM
clever sister
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's like saying "I believe just the Bible written in latin would be preferred by God" because, you know, of the opinions of the English translators.... yet Footnotes make it even more understandable.
Bibles in Latin are also translations.
04-16-2018 03:06 AM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
. . . yet Footnotes make it even more understandable.
RecV footnotes show us WL's interpretations, some of which are questionable at best.

Scripture says, "All have sinned and fallen short", and the NT writers quoted this. But the NT writer didn't expect us to include Jesus Christ in the "all are sinners" metric, did they? Yet that is just what WL suggests when he rejects the prophetic utterance in the Psalms, writing that since the psalmist was a sinner, the words are vain.

Now, I would question such logic as ignoring Christ while the NT authors encourage us to fix our minds and hearts on Him.
04-15-2018 10:12 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's like saying "I believe just the Bible written in latin would be preferred by God" because, you know, of the opinions of the English translators.... yet Footnotes make it even more understandable.
Right. Or, like those who say the KJV is the only legitimate translation because it is the text we have received.

04-15-2018 09:53 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Textual footnotes are acceptable, but opinioned footnotes may not be.
Text are opinions. Footnotes clarify the opinion. Study Bibles often incorporate both.

Here's one for KJV for those who prefer it.

https://www.christianbook.com/Christ...600341&slide=2

Drake
04-15-2018 05:29 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's like saying "I believe just the Bible written in latin would be preferred by God" because, you know, of the opinions of the English translators.... yet Footnotes make it even more understandable.
Textual footnotes are acceptable, but opinioned footnotes may not be.
04-15-2018 05:23 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Study bibles are expensive.
Being "expensive" is not related to its "worth."
04-15-2018 04:38 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Exactly. Especially when the goal isn't to tell you everyone's interpretation of certain things- just the ones Witness Lee "borrowed" from the people he picked and chose to "stand on the shoulders of."

We'll just have to agree to disagree how great it is to hand out a Bible with the footnotes of WL. I personally believe just the Bible would be preferred by God.

We're all entitled to our own opinions though.
That's like saying "I believe just the Bible written in latin would be preferred by God" because, you know, of the opinions of the English translators.... yet Footnotes make it even more understandable.
04-15-2018 04:37 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
"Footnotes" are somebody's opinion. What's so special about a "study bible with footnotes."
Study bibles are expensive.
04-15-2018 10:51 AM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Why doesn't Zondervan do that as well?
Suppose Zondervan held to a "One Publication" policy, denying the validity of anyone else's published efforts. Then you'd start to get an idea of how bad the LSM and its disguised recruiting arms really are.
04-15-2018 07:56 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Pretty scary indeed! When did they say this? Is there a record of it?
During the so-called "New Way" movement in Taipei during the late 80's.

It was spoken by Blendeds, doubt if it is in a book.
04-15-2018 07:17 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Forget about 10%, the Blendeds have even commented that the entire LC offerings belongs to LSM.

In context, they mentioned how W. Nee had all the saints "hand over" everything they owned to his ministry.

Pretty scary. Pretty arrogant. Pretty deceptive.
Pretty scary indeed! When did they say this? Is there a record of it?
04-15-2018 07:15 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
"Footnotes" are somebody's opinion. What's so special about a "study bible with footnotes."
Exactly. Especially when the goal isn't to tell you everyone's interpretation of certain things- just the ones Witness Lee "borrowed" from the people he picked and chose to "stand on the shoulders of."

We'll just have to agree to disagree how great it is to hand out a Bible with the footnotes of WL. I personally believe just the Bible would be preferred by God.

We're all entitled to our own opinions though.
04-14-2018 08:20 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
"Footnotes" are somebody's opinion. What's so special about a "study bible with footnotes."
Footnotes, also known as “critical apparatus” among Bible scholars, aid the reader to understand the meaning of the text.

Of course, critical apparatus or footnotes, are the opinion of the writer of the footnotes. For that matter, even the New Testament we own today, even just the text by itself, is the opinion of the translator of a particular version we are reading.

Drake
04-14-2018 07:27 AM
Koinonia
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Let's put this another way.

Who else besides LSM gives out free bibles? Probably some organizations give out KJV's for free.
Now who gives out free study bibles with footnotes?
"Footnotes" are somebody's opinion. What's so special about a "study bible with footnotes."
04-14-2018 06:25 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Let's put this another way.

Who else besides LSM gives out free bibles? Probably some organizations give out KJV's for free.
Now who gives out free study bibles with footnotes?
Numerous agencies, like Gideon's, give away free Bibles.

The last free Bible I received, I really like. It is the WEB version, the World English Bible, an excellent translation, much better than the Recovery Version.

I wonder if LSM's BFA campaign is giving away free Bibles with footnotes, or free Footnotes with a Bible?
04-14-2018 06:09 AM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Not the point. I’m sure there are others that are exploitive as well.
Let's put this another way.

Who else besides LSM gives out free bibles? Probably some organizations give out KJV's for free.
Now who gives out free study bibles with footnotes?
04-14-2018 05:24 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Why doesn't Zondervan do that as well?
Not the point. I’m sure there are others that are exploitive as well.
04-14-2018 03:41 AM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by clever sister View Post
I wasn't talking about the HWfMR.

I was talking about the money (and time) my parents have poured into the "Free Bible" work the LSM promotes around the world. LSM prints the bibles themselves, yes, there would be some cost associated with that, but I doubt it is $10.

If they are really doing it to further the Word of God, wouldn't the provide the bibles at cost?

Maybe I am naive and under appreciate the cost of materials in actually producing the free Recovery Version bible.
Why doesn't Zondervan do that as well?
04-14-2018 12:30 AM
clever sister
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by clever sister View Post
I wasn't talking about the HWfMR.

I was talking about the money (and time) my parents have poured into the "Free Bible" work the LSM promotes around the world. LSM prints the bibles themselves, yes, there would be some cost associated with that, but I doubt it is $10.

If they are really doing it to further the Word of God, wouldn't the provide the bibles at cost?

Maybe I am naive and under appreciate the cost of materials in actually producing the free Recovery Version bible.
Don't get me wrong, I know my parents gave to this cause voluntarily and they truly believed that these bibles would help get people saved.

But I just wonder at LSM's intentions at starting this work.

Was it for the Lord's work, or was it another way to get more money out of people like my parents who already had several RV versions, already had the entire Life study series and probably owned every ministry book published by LSM already?
Maybe they weren't happy only getting $100 a year from my parents via HWfMR (plus whatever my parents were giving to the local LC).
04-14-2018 12:17 AM
clever sister
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
A devotional book goes for about 6-8 weeks. That's no more than 10 books a year. At $10 each that's only $100 per year. Hardly a burden for most. Anyway, I always buy the online version, it's only about $5. So yes, if you are new, or forgetful, a copy may be done, but I think it's right to pay for them eventually.
I wasn't talking about the HWfMR.

I was talking about the money (and time) my parents have poured into the "Free Bible" work the LSM promotes around the world. LSM prints the bibles themselves, yes, there would be some cost associated with that, but I doubt it is $10.

If they are really doing it to further the Word of God, wouldn't the provide the bibles at cost?

Maybe I am naive and under appreciate the cost of materials in actually producing the free Recovery Version bible.
04-13-2018 09:04 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by clever sister View Post
I have been in the same room as Paul Hon while he strongly stated that we needed to give at a minimum 10% of whatever income we had.
Forget about 10%, the Blendeds have even commented that the entire LC offerings belongs to LSM.

In context, they mentioned how W. Nee had all the saints "hand over" everything they owned to his ministry.

Pretty scary. Pretty arrogant. Pretty deceptive.
04-13-2018 08:29 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by clever sister View Post
I have been in the same room as Paul Hon while he strongly stated that we needed to give at a minimum 10% of whatever income we had.

On the matter of photocopies of ministry (Or Xerox as Drake has been calling it), yes my locality did sometimes make photocopies, but it was nearly always for new ones. Once you were more established in the LC you were expected to buy your own copies of the HWfMR.

At conferences we were always strongly encouraged to buy ministry books.

And I don't know how many ministry books I had to buy when I went to FTTH. We weren't allowed to just use the online versions (I doubt they were all available online anyway).

And a lot of saints have invested a lot of time and money to support the giving away of the Recovery Version NT Bible for free. My parents included. If I remember correctly the cost is about $10 per bible (may not a bit cheaper in $US). Who gets that $10?

A devotional book goes for about 6-8 weeks. That's no more than 10 books a year. At $10 each that's only $100 per year. Hardly a burden for most. Anyway, I always buy the online version, it's only about $5. So yes, if you are new, or forgetful, a copy may be done, but I think it's right to pay for them eventually.
04-13-2018 06:30 PM
clever sister
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
10% tithing is not taught - the tithe was an old testament concept and one of legality. If any are giving 10% in a legalistic way, that's their business really, and even some might give in the hope of getting a double fold triple special blessing seed, I don't know.
I have been in the same room as Paul Hon while he strongly stated that we needed to give at a minimum 10% of whatever income we had.

On the matter of photocopies of ministry (Or Xerox as Drake has been calling it), yes my locality did sometimes make photocopies, but it was nearly always for new ones. Once you were more established in the LC you were expected to buy your own copies of the HWfMR.

At conferences we were always strongly encouraged to buy ministry books.

And I don't know how many ministry books I had to buy when I went to FTTH. We weren't allowed to just use the online versions (I doubt they were all available online anyway).

And a lot of saints have invested a lot of time and money to support the giving away of the Recovery Version NT Bible for free. My parents included. If I remember correctly the cost is about $10 per bible (may not a bit cheaper in $US). Who gets that $10?
04-13-2018 11:00 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
You kept getting away from the Daystar truth. There's absolutely no shame to admit mistakes or failures. What really annoys me is that you guys deny the history. The more you defense the wrongness, the less grace is in you.

I'm still in the church life, the only reason I stay is becasue the saints surrounding me are genuine Christians. Not LSM.
I can somewhat understand this. Although at this point, I've done too much research into the unhealthy practices that any member is automatically subjected too- to be comfortable being close to them. Yes, genuine Christians. But unhealthy practices are causing these genuine Christians to identify their relationship with the Lord and their place in the body of Christ, to being the same thing as a member of the Lord's Recovery.

I feel for you because I can somewhat understand your mindset. But I would just ask you to think about what you're a part of- as a whole. If my locality was separate from LSM- I would probably go back.

I believe you're around genuine Christians. You have to look outside your locality and look to the people your localities monthly standing book orders and tithes go to every month.... LSM.

LSM board of directors include the "Blended Brothers" who exercise authority over the local churches. Make no mistake, the Blended Brothers decisions are the authority.

They are using tithe money for their agenda (that's a whole different conversation). I think they are self-delusioned, many leaders in this type of situation are.

I would encourage you to read about healthy vs. unhealthy practices in churches on authority and leadership/recruiting/accountability/proper dealings with accusations against leaders- and ask yourself if it's worth being around that group of genuine Christians under LSM, as opposed to another.

I'm still realizing the vast numbers of genuine believers the Lord led out of the local churches. Its such a refreshing idea and makes me realize how backwards I was for believing they were "opposers" or "ambitious"

Just pray about it...I've been where you are, it's a hard place to be.

This article comes to mind- it might be of some help to you! www.assemblylife.com
04-12-2018 11:31 PM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
You're contradicting yourself now. You said people might listen if I had a doctorate. But then admitted that people on here do not appreciate academia, and I guess you provided an example of that by quoting focus on the family, which I do not agree 100% with.

I think a fact is a statement which is supported to be true.
You kept getting away from the Daystar truth. There's absolutely no shame to admit mistakes or failures. What really annoys me is that you guys deny the history. The more you defense the wrongness, the less grace is in you.

I'm still in the church life, the only reason I stay is becasue the saints surrounding me are genuine Christians. Not LSM.
02-16-2018 08:48 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
I could be wrong, but I don't think you should expect most of the audience here to much appreciate quotes from academia, unless you are referring to the FTTA trainees that may be lurking here.
You're contradicting yourself now. You said people might listen if I had a doctorate. But then admitted that people on here do not appreciate academia, and I guess you provided an example of that by quoting focus on the family, which I do not agree 100% with.

I think a fact is a statement which is supported to be true.
02-16-2018 07:04 AM
Steel
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
I prefer the truth.[/url]
1 Corinthians 13:9... "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;..."

Knowing only in part, although you may think you prefer "...the truth..." . . . Truth is, none of us, including yourself, know "...the truth...", much less ourselves, therefore to bold claim "...I prefer the truth..." is just vanity. Even Paul said as much regarding himself. What we can know is the grace of God so that we can experience a measure of Him who is truth. And even folks in academia can experience God's grace... And even speak according to God's grace.
02-15-2018 06:30 PM
HERn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I quote plenty of people with doctorates and professors but no one pays attention to them. I try to pick the best ones too. Daniel Wallace for example.
I could be wrong, but I don't think you should expect most of the audience here to much appreciate quotes from academia, unless you are referring to the FTTA trainees that may be lurking here.
02-15-2018 05:22 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Okayyyyyyyyyy . . . Very good E! Now, if you only had a doctorate we might pay more attention to you.
I quote plenty of people with doctorates and professors but no one pays attention to them. I try to pick the best ones too. Daniel Wallace for example.
02-15-2018 05:17 PM
HERn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Michael Adams, lexicology professor at North Carolina State University, discussing the neologism "truthiness", defined as "the quality of stating concepts one wishes or believes to be true, rather than the facts" in "Linguists Vote 'Truthiness' Word of 2005", AP via Yahoo! News, (6 January 2006)
Okayyyyyyyyyy . . . Very good E! Now, if you only had a doctorate we might pay more attention to you.
02-15-2018 05:07 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Michael Adams, lexicology professor at North Carolina State University, discussing the neologism "truthiness", defined as "the quality of stating concepts one wishes or believes to be true, rather than the facts" in "Linguists Vote 'Truthiness' Word of 2005", AP via Yahoo! News, (6 January 2006)
02-15-2018 02:40 PM
HERn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I present the facts.
I prefer the truth.

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/fam...facts-vs-truth
02-13-2018 07:10 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhLordJesus View Post
Mr Evangelical,
May I know What do you want to achieve in this site?
I present the facts.
02-12-2018 07:02 AM
OhLordJesus
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
As the amount is increasing each year I'd say the revenue looks healthy.

For the naysayers out there, the figures show Living Stream is bigger than Joyce Meyer and the Salvation Army, being in the top 30.
Mr Evangelical,
May I know What do you want to achieve in this site?
02-11-2018 11:27 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhLordJesus View Post
Financial standings of Living Stream Ministry from 2011 - 2015.
https://ministrywatch.com/ministry.php?ein=237031637
Anyone from accounting background has any idea what is Unrestricted under Net Assets table?
As the amount is increasing each year I'd say the revenue looks healthy.

For the naysayers out there, the figures show Living Stream is bigger than Joyce Meyer and the Salvation Army, being in the top 30.
02-11-2018 05:44 PM
OhLordJesus
Re: First Post kumbaya

Financial standings of Living Stream Ministry from 2011 - 2015.

https://ministrywatch.com/ministry.php?ein=237031637

Anyone from accounting background has any idea what is Unrestricted under Net Assets table?
02-11-2018 05:17 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhLordJesus View Post
If there is an illegal activities, it must be reported to the Authorities. Otherwise, those who (believers in Christ and LCM) possessed any evidence related to these illegal activities did not protect the interest of the Stakeholders.
I think the main issue was- many involved didn’t realize that what WL asked them to do regarding Daystar- was actually illegal.

At the time it was found out, it would have been such a devastating blow to the Lord’s Recovery and people were scared. It was apparently never brought to authorities attention and WL “got away with it” so to speak. The statute of limitations has apparently ran out as well.

It’s easy for us to say they should have done this or that, but what happened- happened. No one wanted to see naive trusting people punished for following WL and no one wanted to hurt WL. I’m sure they were still under his spell and made some kind of excuse for him- who knows.
02-10-2018 05:40 PM
OhLordJesus
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
On Francis D. Ball secretary for Lee family business dealings
If there is an illegal activities, it must be reported to the Authorities. Otherwise, those who (believers in Christ and LCM) possessed any evidence related to these illegal activities did not protect the interest of the Stakeholders.
02-10-2018 12:49 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhLordJesus View Post
Thank you Ms Kumbaya.

I wish more insiders such as Mr Steel and Mr Drake can share more on this.
I hope they do too! In the past, one of them has avoided this topic (at least with me). I think the other may be newer to the forum....
02-10-2018 10:57 AM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
January 9, 2003

Dear Brother Liu Suey,

This letter is to inform you as a member of the Board of Directors of Living Stream Ministry that there is a special urgent meeting of the entire board of directors, including the recently appointed members, scheduled for Lord's Day, January 19, 2003 at 4:00 p.m. in the conference room of building 4, 2431 W. LaPalma Ave., Anaheim, Ca.

The purpose of this meeting is to give opportunity to the children of Brother Witness Lee to present their view of Brother Lee's will and to make claim to the execution of that will according to their view. For this reason the Board will allow a limited amount of time to their presentation.

It is very important that all the members of the Board be present for this special meeting. If you are coming from a distance and need transportation and/or hospitlaity please respond to this letter either by mail or email to me at franisb@lords.move.org. We will be happy to provide arrangements for you.

Grace to you and the enjoyment of the Christ be your portion,
Francis D. Ball, secretary
On Francis D. Ball secretary for Lee family business dealings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elden1971 View Post
My walk with the Lord began 60 years ago in Okemah Oklahoma where I experienced my first church split due to the pastor involving the members in a business that failed. Twenty years later that experience and others would keep me from involvement in the Daystar tragedy at Elden Hall. It has been erroneously reported on this forum and others that I was the accountant for Daystar. I was the accountant for many investors in Daystar and a Business Consultant to several Brothers. I was employed as an Accountant for the Los Angeles County Government and responsible for the Payroll Clearance Fund and the Joint Power Authorities. I later had increased responsibilities in Budget Report and Data Processing Departments . . . also worked as a Business Consultant and Tax Preparer for many Brothers including Bro. Lee and Francis Ball.

I can confirm that those involved in Daystar violated Federal and State Securities Law and Federal money laundering statutes. The son of one of the sisters that invested in Daystar was and still is an attorney now living in DC who advised the brothers and me of their illegal activities. Prior to the Daystar tragedy my experience at Elden Hall was one of the best times of my Life.

Brother Lee took serious advantage of Francis and put him at serious risk. I was close friends with Francis and his wife Martha lived with us briefly before they married. Francis would and did do anything Bro. Lee asked. When I explained the potential liability to Francis he was shocked and terrified. I was greatly relieved when the statute of limitations expired as Francis would have faced serious criminal and civil consequences.

Don Hardy was shocked when he discovered Phillip Lee was "cooking the books" in other words maintaining two sets of books. Don was outraged and resigned as an officer. Bro. Lee was himself an accountant and had to be complicit with Phillip as he personally funneled money through Francis and others. I have direct proof of this as I prepared the tax returns for Francis and heard first hand from him that Bro. Lee gave him the funds and told him what to do with them and of course I saw the actual bank statements.

Brother Lee and others were advised by Benton Fonner of the illegal and fraudulent nature of the Daystar offering. Daystar was the pivotal turning point for Brother Lee and Phillip and Timothy in the US. It is well documented of their previous business failings in Taiwan and the Phillipines. Bro. Lee came to me in Anaheim asking for Business advice as I had successfully invested for 39 Chinese clients in Taipei, Tainan and Brazil as well as Anaheim and had gained their trust and respect. I later traveled to Taiwan to meet personally with two brothers in Taipei and the other in Tainan. One of my sons has lived in Taiwan for 6 years and two years in China. I visited Beijing for 3 weeks about 3 years ago. I have been retired for 7 years and have no interest in discussing Daystar except to set the record straight. I knew personally all the major players and most of the investors and can say in summary that it was a disaster.
02-10-2018 09:25 AM
Koinonia
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhLordJesus View Post
Is there any Lee's family still involved in the LSM business? Do they receive anything such as royalty fee from LSM?

If not, then LSM is just another non-profit organization which is run by some professionals and governed by Board of Directors who I believe you all called them Blending Brothers. So, what's wrong then?
January 9, 2003

Dear Brother Liu Suey,

This letter is to inform you as a member of the Board of Directors of Living Stream Ministry that there is a special urgent meeting of the entire board of directors, including the recently appointed members, scheduled for Lord's Day, January 19, 2003 at 4:00 p.m. in the conference room of building 4, 2431 W. LaPalma Ave., Anaheim, Ca.

The purpose of this meeting is to give opportunity to the children of Brother Witness Lee to present their view of Brother Lee's will and to make claim to the execution of that will according to their view. For this reason the Board will allow a limited amount of time to their presentation.

It is very important that all the members of the Board be present for this special meeting. If you are coming from a distance and need transportation and/or hospitlaity please respond to this letter either by mail or email to me at franisb@lords.move.org. We will be happy to provide arrangements for you.

Grace to you and the enjoyment of the Christ be your portion,
Francis D. Ball, secretary
02-10-2018 08:12 AM
OhLordJesus
Re: First Post kumbaya

Thank you Ms Kumbaya.

I wish more insiders such as Mr Steel and Mr Drake can share more on this.
02-10-2018 07:49 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhLordJesus View Post
Is there any Lee's family still involved in the LSM business? Do they receive anything such as royalty fee from LSM?

If not, then LSM is just another non-profit organization which is run by some professionals and governed by Board of Directors who I believe you all called them Blending Brothers. So, what's wrong then?
I read there were royalties but I didn't see any proof and don't know if anyone has that... I've heard from family of those involved with LSM scandals about the illegal activity- but again- its hearsay and I don't have proof. At the very least, there's a recording of WL saying LSM and the church in Boston "loaned" money to WL's businesses-which is illegal. WL specifically mentions 100K loaned from the church in Boston, to himself and two other men for their business ventures that resulted in saints losing their investments. There's a lot of info/proof on this site about it. There's a lot of unanswered questions too...

What is obvious is that you have leaders of a church movement who also run a business. Although its "non-profit"- the leaders who run both are placing requirements on local churches to support a business financially. You're mixing a business with a church and it's a pretty tricky thing to handle on an ethical level.

It's one thing when a church owns a daycare for its members or the community. It's another thing when they own a publishing company that wants exclusive privilege of printing and supplying all materials for the local churches.

They require churches to purchase these materials and quarantine churches that don't comply. It's the perfect example of "leaven" and yet they proclaim they're the group on earth expressing the body of Christ in the best way?

You can't have the same people running a church and running a business, interchanging money between the two, and be naive enough to think there won't be problems.

There's no accountability with the leaders on any level.

I hope that answered your question
02-09-2018 10:13 PM
OhLordJesus
Re: First Post kumbaya

Is there any Lee's family still involved in the LSM business? Do they receive anything such as royalty fee from LSM?

If not, then LSM is just another non-profit organization which is run by some professionals and governed by Board of Directors who I believe you all called them Blending Brothers. So, what's wrong then?
02-09-2018 08:21 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhLordJesus View Post
HERn,

I agreed with your reply. I should pay for the genuine printed copy from LSM so that my payment will contribute part of the revenue of LSM which is a huge (multi-millions dollars income yearly) worldly US registered non-profit organization. Thanks.
I agree that LSM is corrupt. However, I really doubt they're making money on the HWMR's.

Someone please correct me, aren't all the training donations sent to LSM?

Are the trainings run with LSM funds and by LSM exec's?

What "blending brothers" that run "afaithfulword" website for the LC, are also heading up LSM?

Still unclear on some of this- so if anyone knows, please enlighten!
02-08-2018 08:11 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhLordJesus View Post
Mr Drake,

I just registered.
Super... and welcome.

Drake
02-08-2018 08:10 PM
OhLordJesus
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
To be righteous all the saints should purchase their copies of the HWMR. The editorial saints and the coworkers spend much time compiling these books and deserve the pay for their efforts. I always felt uncomfortable using pirated copies.
HERn,

I agreed with your reply. I should pay for the genuine printed copy from LSM so that my payment will contribute part of the revenue of LSM which is a huge (multi-millions dollars income yearly) worldly US registered non-profit organization. Thanks.
02-08-2018 08:06 PM
OhLordJesus
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Special circumstances... Here’s what you do: if some saints cannot afford it then bring it up to the elders. They will make the arrangements and permissions so that anyone that wants a copy but cannot afford it will get a copy.... that copy may be a xerox copy. It’s up to the elders. Follow them. They are your shepherds.

Now, if you are lawless then you can go make as many copies as you like.Just be sure to make those copies in the dark with no one there, preferably after hours, wear a wig, shades, you understand. It needs to be a covert operation. I wouldn’t want you to get tackled and cuffed by brothers patrolling for people who go around making xerox copies of HWMR.



By the way. Welcome to the forum and please register. Many drive by shooters named unreg come through here. We like to sort them out.

Thanks
Drake
Mr Drake,

I just registered.
02-08-2018 07:46 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
To be righteous all the saints should purchase their copies of the HWMR. The editorial saints and the coworkers spend much time compiling these books and deserve the pay for their efforts. I always felt uncomfortable using pirated copies.
HERn, how do you feel about LSM charging for their meetings?
02-08-2018 07:43 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
To be righteous all the saints should purchase their copies of the HWMR. The editorial saints and the coworkers spend much time compiling these books and deserve the pay for their efforts. I always felt uncomfortable using pirated copies.
Well said.

Drake
02-08-2018 07:36 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Mr Drake,

Are you saying we have an option to make a Xerox copy of HWFMR? If so, I will check with my brothers and borrow from one of them and make photocopy. I will share your understanding to all the saints in my locality also. Thanks.
Special circumstances... Here’s what you do: if some saints cannot afford it then bring it up to the elders. They will make the arrangements and permissions so that anyone that wants a copy but cannot afford it will get a copy.... that copy may be a xerox copy. It’s up to the elders. Follow them. They are your shepherds.

Now, if you are lawless then you can go make as many copies as you like.Just be sure to make those copies in the dark with no one there, preferably after hours, wear a wig, shades, you understand. It needs to be a covert operation. I wouldn’t want you to get tackled and cuffed by brothers patrolling for people who go around making xerox copies of HWMR.



By the way. Welcome to the forum and please register. Many drive by shooters named unreg come through here. We like to sort them out.

Thanks
Drake
02-08-2018 07:15 PM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Mr Drake,

Are you saying we have an option to make a Xerox copy of HWFMR? If so, I will check with my brothers and borrow from one of them and make photocopy. I will share your understanding to all the saints in my locality also. Thanks.
Good one unreg. Let us know how it goes
02-08-2018 06:48 PM
HERn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Mr Drake,

Are you saying we have an option to make a Xerox copy of HWFMR? If so, I will check with my brothers and borrow from one of them and make photocopy. I will share your understanding to all the saints in my locality also. Thanks.
To be righteous all the saints should purchase their copies of the HWMR. The editorial saints and the coworkers spend much time compiling these books and deserve the pay for their efforts. I always felt uncomfortable using pirated copies.
02-08-2018 12:32 AM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake
Mr Drake,

Are you saying we have an option to make a Xerox copy of HWFMR? If so, I will check with my brothers and borrow from one of them and make photocopy. I will share your understanding to all the saints in my locality also. Thanks.
02-05-2018 03:11 PM
HERn
Re: No hint of Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
You won't find the book on minstrybooks.org. I don't know if it can even be ordered? Maybe the thought was we pull it off the shelves and pretend the book was never published? Perhaps co-workers realize it was wrong to publish, but there's too much pride to ever retract?
I have considered what the outcome could have been if the late 80's had been handled with grace in the local churches instead of allowing it to become a turmoil.
It's sad, but the so-called local churches have always been a concubine of WN and WL. These men have prostituted the body of Christ to earn recognition and a monetary living. There is only one Bridegroom, and he is the Lord Jesus Christ. There is only one Bride, and she is composed of all the lovers of Jesus Christ; in the LSM Recovery and the many denominations.
01-24-2018 11:59 AM
Terry
Re: No hint of Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
yes, Fermentation of Present Rebellion, seems void of grace just by being published!

I just wish more people could see.
You won't find the book on minstrybooks.org. I don't know if it can even be ordered? Maybe the thought was we pull it off the shelves and pretend the book was never published? Perhaps co-workers realize it was wrong to publish, but there's too much pride to ever retract?
I have considered what the outcome could have been if the late 80's had been handled with grace in the local churches instead of allowing it to become a turmoil.
01-24-2018 09:51 AM
kumbaya
Re: No hint of Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
I have noticed the culture is very much based on trust and agreement than it is love. When a brother can no longer be trusted or counted upon, he is through in the local church.
I would say scripture that best describes the culture is Luke 6:32.
There's an absence of grace and forgiveness.
Ones I knew from my youth who left decades ago (being children of an elder who left) experienced the shame. Even though express forgiveness realize they're not welcome.
There is not the open door to return someday to visit or meet regularly. Once someone's name has been slandered, local church public opinion is opposed to allowing so and so to return.
With grace you don't have what happened to the late John Ingalls, John So, or Bill Mallon. Grace allows love to prevail. Grace disarms negativity from coming into any assembly.
yes, Fermentation of Present Rebellion, seems void of grace just by being published!

I just wish more people could see.
01-22-2018 11:34 AM
Terry
Re: No hint of Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I really do blame the culture. Love love love until theres a disagreement and then shame, curse, and kick out.
I have noticed the culture is very much based on trust and agreement than it is love. When a brother can no longer be trusted or counted upon, he is through in the local church.
I would say scripture that best describes the culture is Luke 6:32.
There's an absence of grace and forgiveness.
Ones I knew from my youth who left decades ago (being children of an elder who left) experienced the shame. Even though express forgiveness realize they're not welcome.
There is not the open door to return someday to visit or meet regularly. Once someone's name has been slandered, local church public opinion is opposed to allowing so and so to return.
With grace you don't have what happened to the late John Ingalls, John So, or Bill Mallon. Grace allows love to prevail. Grace disarms negativity from coming into any assembly.
01-21-2018 06:41 AM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Substitute "gangrene" with "leprosy" or "poison" and the result is the same.
It's like a card to be employed whenever someone is expressing a point of view contrary to that of LSM. Of course it is also tainted with hypocrisy.
A brother can be slandered without needing anything of substance.
If you or I object to the speaking then we may be singled out for not being inoculated against the poison.
Agreed. I’m glad to finally be clear about it, and to be able to warn others about it.
01-20-2018 06:44 PM
Terry
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Don’t talk to him or his wife or you might get “gangrene”.
Substitute "gangrene" with "leprosy" or "poison" and the result is the same.
It's like a card to be employed whenever someone is expressing a point of view contrary to that of LSM. Of course it is also tainted with hypocrisy.
A brother can be slandered without needing anything of substance.
If you or I object to the speaking then we may be singled out for not being inoculated against the poison.
01-16-2018 09:40 PM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya, read near the bottom of Section 2 of Chapter 1 of “Life Study of James” on-line version (easy to Google). That way we don’t violate copyright or paraphrase wrongly.
01-16-2018 05:21 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
I suppose that depends how one wants to receive translation of 2nd Timothy 3:16. Is All scripture God-breathed or God inspired?
From recollection one of the songs that came out of the Timothy trainings was All Scripture is God-breathed.....
Now if those at Living Stream want to reverse course and say it's not God breathed, but God inspired, I could see why especially with James , Micah, Proverbs, and Psalms.
This brings up a question I've had....

What's the situation with what WL said about the book of James? I heard someone tell me an elder told them (I know, hearsay!) that James really shouldn't be included in the Bible and you didn't need to read it.

Hopefully that is an individual case and I doubt WL said that- but I do remember hearing about some books being "lower"....Just don't think there's a reason to go there.
01-16-2018 12:33 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
I suppose that depends how one wants to receive translation of 2nd Timothy 3:16. Is All scripture God-breathed or God inspired?
From recollection one of the songs that came out of the Timothy trainings was All Scripture is God-breathed.....
Now if those at Living Stream want to reverse course and say it's not God breathed, but God inspired, I could see why especially with James , Micah, Proverbs, and Psalms.
God-inspired means that all the writers of scripture were "men sent by God spoke as they were compelled by the Holy Spirit." (II Peter 1.21)

So even if the writer of the Bible repeated the words of Satan tempting the Lord Jesus in the wilderness, those written words we have today were still "compelled by the Holy Spirit."

Those same words, by definition, are "God-breathed."
01-16-2018 12:00 PM
Terry
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
They made a strong point that although all scripture is inspired by God, not all scripture is God's word.
I suppose that depends how one wants to receive translation of 2nd Timothy 3:16. Is All scripture God-breathed or God inspired?
From recollection one of the songs that came out of the Timothy trainings was All Scripture is God-breathed.....
Now if those at Living Stream want to reverse course and say it's not God breathed, but God inspired, I could see why especially with James , Micah, Proverbs, and Psalms.
01-15-2018 06:01 PM
HERn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
An online FTT? LOL. What? Do they think they're an accredited university? Fanatics will fall for anything.
Not accredited. I just wanted to be a better and more absolute brother and impress the elders with my commitment. I kept it secret because you're not supposed to put yourself forward. When I did mention it in passing one elder looked at another and asked if he approved this. They shook their heads no. None asked about the courses. Since the online FTT does not require elder permission or recommendation I think it should be obvious that it's not the "real deal" like those in the face-to-face training receive. Nothing about the Lord's Recovery being the move of God on the earth (at leasst from the three courses I took). WL was not promoted as the Minister of the Age, but all of the materials were by him and published via LSM. Probably most evangelicals would be comfortable with what was presented. They made a strong point that although all scripture is inspired by God, not all scripture is God's word. Apologies to Kumbaya for skewing his thread onto a tangent!
01-15-2018 09:18 AM
awareness
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
You can "attend" the online FFT and take courses, but you will get a watered down version.
An online FTT? LOL. What? Do they think they're an accredited university? Fanatics will fall for anything.
01-14-2018 06:01 PM
HERn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
It's sad but I believe true- with the online training you're alone, learning- correct?
In the FTT you're with a group of people and your behavior is on display for everyone to see. I'm sure there is some sort of "screening" process to ensure you'll be a compliant little bro/sis. Yuck. God bless my family going back soon!! I really pray that the truth (no matter what it is) will be shown to them and us all.
We weren't alone, we were in discussion groups and had to critique each other's comments and assignments. There were "trainers" who chimed in, moderated, commented, and perfected. I don't think they were the "real" trainers though. All in all it was a positive experience. There were several non-LC participants.
01-13-2018 02:32 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Do you know if there a thread that discusses all the numerous "open letters" on the afaithfulword site? It looks so exhaustive, I haven't checked it out too much. Seems like they're obviously attempting to "justify" these quarantines and their behavior....
It is exhaustive!

During the midst of the Anaheim-Midwest "tract wars," one day in the mail I received "anonymously" from a family member LSM's color-coded 28 Booklet "Attack Pack." They were afaithfulworddotcom all pretty in pink ... And in blue ...

They were "poison inoculation" for the faithful. Twisted truths all based on the vast writings of Nee and Lee.

Not sure if we had threads discussing each booklet. We (I?) probably spent more time reading the articles on concerned brothersdotcom. At least those articles resembled the truths of the Bible as compared to LSM's distortions.
01-12-2018 09:52 PM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Talking about those 80's lawsuit. There was a certain elder who didn't go along with it and it was pointed out "someone is not one with us". A few years later he ousted out of the Church in Rosemead.
Whether one wants to accept it or not peer pressure is very prevalent in the local churches whether you're one of the young people or a respected elder.
Yes, I recall Dan Toole (an elder in Fullerton, CA at the time) announced the first group of lawsuits were being initiated after “a training” in Anaheim (1980 I think) saying they were necessary because the churches’ growth was being hindered by the “slanderous books”, and there was a need to “appeal to Caesar” like Paul did. Brother Lee said he didn’t want to do it, but had been pressed into it by leading brothers who said something needed to be done. And, the lawsuit was for $1.00 because it wasn’t about money, but the truth.

One of the elders in my locality objected on the basis of Paul’s word in 1 Cor 6. He was immediately “quarantined” and was either expelled from the church or voluntarily left (there were private meetings with him I wasn’t in).

We were told by the remaining elders that “he is too much in his mind”. “Satan is twisting his thoughts”. Don’t talk to him or his wife or you might get “gangrene”. Being young and gullible (and not well schooled in scripture) that scared me, so I participated in the church-wide shunning of him and his family.

That was quite disturbing to me, because I had spent a fair amount of time at his house fellowshipping over meals, and felt close to he, his wife, and children. But, I thought it was the right thing to do at the time. It makes me sick and sad thinking about it now.

It was my first taste of a local church quarantine (it wouldn’t be the last).
01-12-2018 09:39 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
I took three of them and didn't need permission or approval from my local elders.
It's sad but I believe true- with the online training you're alone, learning- correct?

In the FTT you're with a group of people and your behavior is on display for everyone to see. I'm sure there is some sort of "screening" process to ensure you'll be a compliant little bro/sis.

Yuck.

God bless my family going back soon!! I really pray that the truth (no matter what it is) will be shown to them and us all.
01-12-2018 09:20 PM
HERn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Ha! I wouldn't be surprised!!
I took three of them and didn't need permission or approval from my local elders.
01-12-2018 09:13 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Concerning the Heritage House Lawsuits that went to the SCOTUS, Titus Chu and the Midwest LC's refused to sign up.
Do you know if there a thread that discusses all the numerous "open letters" on the afaithfulword site? It looks so exhaustive, I haven't checked it out too much.

Seems like they're obviously attempting to "justify" these quarantines and their behavior....
01-12-2018 09:10 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Talking about those 80's lawsuit. There was a certain elder who didn't go along with it and it was pointed out "someone is not one with us". A few years later he ousted out of the Church in Rosemead.
Whether one wants to accept it or not peer pressure is very prevalent in the local churches whether you're one of the young people or a respected elder.
Peer pressure or "feeling of one-ness?" ick

yes, get your drift.
01-12-2018 09:08 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
I think the only requirement to take online FTT courses is to have a valid credit card number and an email address.
Ha! I wouldn't be surprised!!
01-12-2018 06:18 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Talking about those 80's lawsuit. There was a certain elder who didn't go along with it and it was pointed out "someone is not one with us". A few years later he ousted out of the Church in Rosemead.
Whether one wants to accept it or not peer pressure is very prevalent in the local churches whether you're one of the young people or a respected elder.
Concerning the Heritage House Lawsuits that went to the SCOTUS, Titus Chu and the Midwest LC's refused to sign up.
01-12-2018 06:15 PM
Terry
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I specifically remember (in the 80’s) the lawsuits being talked about in our home and my dad saying, “We didn’t have a choice!”

Well, that wasn’t my dad’s choice to make. I’m in no way blaming him. But it’s interesting that he said “we” when I’m sure the decision wasn't his. He was told the decision and he went along with it-trusting the ones leading.
Talking about those 80's lawsuit. There was a certain elder who didn't go along with it and it was pointed out "someone is not one with us". A few years later he ousted out of the Church in Rosemead.
Whether one wants to accept it or not peer pressure is very prevalent in the local churches whether you're one of the young people or a respected elder.
01-12-2018 03:52 PM
HERn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
If I had the time- I’d want to to look into those requirements. Does anyone know though, what you have to “believe” to attend the actual FTT?

I just wonder if you have to blindly accept every interpretation of the Bible from WL as truth.
I think the only requirement to take online FTT courses is to have a valid credit card number and an email address.
01-12-2018 08:07 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
You can "attend" the online FFT and take courses, but you will get a watered down version.
If I had the time- I’d want to to look into those requirements. Does anyone know though, what you have to “believe” to attend the actual FTT?

I just wonder if you have to blindly accept every interpretation of the Bible from WL as truth.
01-11-2018 10:22 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
One of the political games that was played after Lee's passing was that LSM would stop bashing Titus Chu from the podium, and in exchange, all the Midwest LC's would send money each month to LSM/DCP to cover the costs of the Heritage House lawsuits that went all the way to the SCOTUS.

The Blendeds, however, never did honor their end of the deal. They continued to bash the Midwest, sowing suspicions into the saints at all their "Feasts." The Midwest LC's then mostly stopped attending their Feasts. Later on then were Quarantined, and LSM used the money to sue the Midwest LC's.
They used the money the Midwest churches gave them- to sue the MW churches? No wonder there are so many “open letters” on afaithword page about this. They must be desperately trying to cover their tracks if that is true!
01-11-2018 10:15 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Lawsuits being wrong is not a matter of opinion. It is explicitly prohibited by scripture http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/6.htm

The Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and later “The Defense and Confirmation Project (run by LSM leaders) openly used their funds, collected from “donations”, sales of their literature, to sue other believers, and encouraged “the saints” to contribute (donate) even more to support them!

This is to their shame! Using Paul’s words, not mine.
Funny- for being so “bold” in their actions/stance-they certainly don’t talk about it much to the local churches (at least in the locality I was in).

They’re exploiting sweet people who I believe give (many) 10% or more of their income. I believe their hearts are good so it’s covered if they don’t know where it’s going. I wish more light and awareness would shine on this issue

Thank you, I’m going to read those verses about suing...

I specifically remember (in the 80’s) the lawsuits being talked about in our home and my dad saying, “We didn’t have a choice!”

Well, that wasn’t my dad’s choice to make. I’m in no way blaming him. But it’s interesting that he said “we” when I’m sure the decision wasn't his. He was told the decision and he went along with it-trusting the ones leading.

Thanks for the verse link!
01-11-2018 07:31 PM
HERn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I completely agree. The FTT should be called a MINISTRY school where you also learn the Bible. I'm just curious, I wonder if you can attend the training without full heartedly saying that you agree that WL is the minister of the age and that the LC is "recovering" the church...

Of course, I don't know why you'd WANT to attend if you believe that.

But I just wonder if you could attend as just a random person who believed it was a place where you could learn the Bible. I obviously have some major concerns about the training, but besides being a Christian- I just want to know how indoctrinated you have to be to be accepted.
You can "attend" the online FFT and take courses, but you will get a watered down version.
01-09-2018 05:47 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
What you've just identified is not a local church, but a ministry church. Sure they like to call and think of themselves as local churches, but in practice they're ministry churches.
When it comes to gaining "new ones", it's just not any "new ones", but ones who have a vision for the ministry. If one doesn't have the vision, they're deemed not worth the investment of time.
I completely agree. The FTT should be called a MINISTRY school where you also learn the Bible. I'm just curious, I wonder if you can attend the training without full heartedly saying that you agree that WL is the minister of the age and that the LC is "recovering" the church...

Of course, I don't know why you'd WANT to attend if you believe that.

But I just wonder if you could attend as just a random person who believed it was a place where you could learn the Bible. I obviously have some major concerns about the training, but besides being a Christian- I just want to know how indoctrinated you have to be to be accepted.
01-08-2018 07:53 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Lawsuits being wrong is not a matter of opinion. It is explicitly prohibited by scripture http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/6.htm

The Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and later “The Defense and Confirmation Project (run by LSM leaders) openly used their funds, collected from “donations”, sales of their literature, to sue other believers, and encouraged “the saints” to contribute (donate) even more to support them!

This is to their shame! Using Paul’s words, not mine.
One of the political games that was played after Lee's passing was that LSM would stop bashing Titus Chu from the podium, and in exchange, all the Midwest LC's would send money each month to LSM/DCP to cover the costs of the Heritage House lawsuits that went all the way to the SCOTUS.

The Blendeds, however, never did honor their end of the deal. They continued to bash the Midwest, sowing suspicions into the saints at all their "Feasts." The Midwest LC's then mostly stopped attending their Feasts. Later on then were Quarantined, and LSM used the money to sue the Midwest LC's.
01-08-2018 06:59 AM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
What you've just identified is not a local church, but a ministry church. Sure they like to call and think of themselves as local churches, but in practice they're ministry churches.
When it comes to gaining "new ones", it's just not any "new ones", but ones who have a vision for the ministry. If one doesn't have the vision, they're deemed not worth the investment of time.
Sorry, but true!
An “inconvenient truth”.
01-08-2018 06:55 AM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Wow. Well I definitely don't believe it's ok for a church to sue unless it's some sort of equivalent to a "life or death" situation. It's not turning the other cheek, for sure. Also, I think the fact that its not talked about to members is wrong.

Would it be entirely crazy to vote on these matters? I personally would not want my tithes to go to these lawsuits. I wonder how that money is appropriated....

I find apologetic discussions very interesting but it's definitely sad to see divisiveness over them. Those debates can really go too far...

I've read the concernedbrothers page- thought it sounded well done and tactful.

We all have our opinions on things, I think the issues of the faith are the most important and maybe it's easier for me bc I'm just a little "hippy-ish" at heart, and I know it's important to study doctrine, but there has to be balance. That being said though, I'm glad there's people that aren't like me and get into the nitty gritty of the translations and meanings. Without that, we could REALLY be off course! We can all learn from each other though and we all have our share of Jesus to share with each other, hopefully
Lawsuits being wrong is not a matter of opinion. It is explicitly prohibited by scripture http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/6.htm

The Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and later “The Defense and Confirmation Project (run by LSM leaders) openly used their funds, collected from “donations”, sales of their literature, to sue other believers, and encouraged “the saints” to contribute (donate) even more to support them!

This is to their shame! Using Paul’s words, not mine.
01-07-2018 09:06 PM
Terry
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”
What you've just identified is not a local church, but a ministry church. Sure they like to call and think of themselves as local churches, but in practice they're ministry churches.
When it comes to gaining "new ones", it's just not any "new ones", but ones who have a vision for the ministry. If one doesn't have the vision, they're deemed not worth the investment of time.
01-06-2018 12:12 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I once found a chart of their numerous legal proceedings. It numbered 2 or 3 dozen. Some were merely legal threats to publishers to retract anything damaging against them. The Heritage House lawsuit was taken to the Supreme Court just a few years back. We had some discussion about it.

The chart did NOT include all the lawsuits in the GLA after the quarantines. Things got really ugly. Operatives from LSM / DCP would hold "training sessions" to help the local "insurgents." Toronto Canada was seen as a huge prize for them, and 2 of their 9 elders were used by LSM. One of their elders and ministers, a former professor named Nigel Tomes, has written extensively on a whole host of topics dismantling LSM teachings. Most of his articles are referenced here.

During the Quarantine, numerous brothers in the GLA wrote. Some posted here. The website is concernedbrothers dot com or dot org. Eventually, Nigel's writings became even too "hot" for those closest to Titus Chu, and they have parted ways. Same with John Myer, who wrote "Future and Hope."
Wow. Well I definitely don't believe it's ok for a church to sue unless it's some sort of equivalent to a "life or death" situation. It's not turning the other cheek, for sure. Also, I think the fact that its not talked about to members is wrong.

Would it be entirely crazy to vote on these matters? I personally would not want my tithes to go to these lawsuits. I wonder how that money is appropriated....

I find apologetic discussions very interesting but it's definitely sad to see divisiveness over them. Those debates can really go too far...

I've read the concernedbrothers page- thought it sounded well done and tactful.

We all have our opinions on things, I think the issues of the faith are the most important and maybe it's easier for me bc I'm just a little "hippy-ish" at heart, and I know it's important to study doctrine, but there has to be balance. That being said though, I'm glad there's people that aren't like me and get into the nitty gritty of the translations and meanings. Without that, we could REALLY be off course! We can all learn from each other though and we all have our share of Jesus to share with each other, hopefully
01-05-2018 04:17 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Wow. Thanks for that info- I was a little confused about why people talked about that website but couldn't find an active link for it...
I can't say I'm surprised about the lawsuits against web sites. I wonder, can you search for a list of their past/present lawsuits?
I'm just curious to how extreme it is (or isn't)....
I once found a chart of their numerous legal proceedings. It numbered 2 or 3 dozen. Some were merely legal threats to publishers to retract anything damaging against them. The Heritage House lawsuit was taken to the Supreme Court just a few years back. We had some discussion about it.

The chart did NOT include all the lawsuits in the GLA after the quarantines. Things got really ugly. Operatives from LSM / DCP would hold "training sessions" to help the local "insurgents." Toronto Canada was seen as a huge prize for them, and 2 of their 9 elders were used by LSM. One of their elders and ministers, a former professor named Nigel Tomes, has written extensively on a whole host of topics dismantling LSM teachings. Most of his articles are referenced here.

During the Quarantine, numerous brothers in the GLA wrote. Some posted here. The website is concernedbrothers dot com or dot org. Eventually, Nigel's writings became even too "hot" for those closest to Titus Chu, and they have parted ways. Same with John Myer, who wrote "Future and Hope."
01-04-2018 08:37 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
When I found the Bereans forum in 2005, UntoHim and Matt Anderson (his mom wrote "Thread of Gold" book on her story) were the moderators of the LC subforum. It had other subforums on a host of other religions. With all the chaos surrounding LSM's quarantines and takeover of the GLA LC's, that forum was the goto site to expose and discuss all of LSM's crooked endeavors and writings. Numerous former elders and workers posted, and with so much excellent input from so many witnesses, it was undeniable how twisted and corrupt LSM had become.

No one really knew why the Philipino owners of the Bereans website became increasingly erratic. At one point they upgraded their software, and all the archives were lost. Everything on that site is now gone. So UntoHim was able to start this forum. In the beginning, the two forums competed, and eventually we all jumped off that sinking ship. Now, after a decade, we get noticed by all the search forums and LSM is just furious about that, but they can't file lawsuits against internet forums.
Wow. Thanks for that info- I was a little confused about why people talked about that website but couldn't find an active link for it...

I can't say I'm surprised about the lawsuits against web sites. I wonder, can you search for a list of their past/present lawsuits?

I'm just curious to how extreme it is (or isn't)....

Thank you, UntoHim, for starting this forum!! I know it's helped me, some of my family, and many others!

I've read Jane's book and communicated a bit with her, she seems really sweet. At the time, I was sort of in shock about this whole thing and didn't reach out to her more...

We're so fortunate to have this info from decades and more back available to anyone who is questioning LSM/LC practices. So thankful for the knowledge, connection, and hope going forward
01-02-2018 11:11 PM
Intothewind
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya:

I imagine the embarrassment of them explaining away where their son went, and his disinterest in traditional lc lifestyle, the fervent but useless prayer, the possibility of living a comfortable lc life if I could just go along with it.
01-01-2018 12:20 PM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
If all this is true, its just makes me wonder how H.H. sleeps at night.
At one point, a few years back, I read the H.H. story. He took over a widely-known Christian apologetics ministry (Walter Martin) and made it his personal cash cow. He got, I'm going by memory here - something like $400,000 per year. Wife was Associate director or something like that, she got like $125,000. They got his-and-hers Lexus', membership to the swanky golf club ($2,000/year), a house worth several hundred thousand, all paid for, tax-free, by the non-profit 'ministry'.

All this was public record, because this was a non-profit corporation forced to show the 'books'.

And he left behind a trail of embittered former staffers, who ghost-wrote Hank's material for minimum wage and no credit.

Pretty sad stuff.
01-01-2018 07:14 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
My grandfather was a pastor (in a denomination so no good according to my parents mindsets at the time) and I've recently heard he told my grandmother, aunt and uncle that, "Love will get our family through this," and "we are going to love them to death" when things were at an extremely difficult point in the late 70's early 80's. Back then, things were way more extreme. Some were saying to choose either family or the church, my parents wouldn't even enter home with Christmas trees, it was all very extreme. I don't remember any of that so at least it was kept hidden from me or the extremeness of it faded by the time I was in elementary school. I just say all that because I'm really just reminding myself (and others too) that is the NUMBER ONE priority and to pray that God gives you that LOVE every day, when it's hard. I know I have some "hard" days ahead where I'll need it!
Dear Kumbaya,

I love your grandfathers' words, "Love will get our family through this."

The bolded sentence above stood out to me, and yes, that's what was continually presented to us in those days. The line from Revel. 18.4, "Come out of her My people," was used for every context -- jobs, family, denominations, etc. There was a fever pitch to be separated from everything to the church, Lee's church. W. Lee would twist Paul's salvation story to reinforce this mantra. Since the Lord asked him, "why are you persecuting Me," Lee went on to say that we can never separate Christ and the church. Repeat n-e-v-e-r. Our brain cells had been rewired to think this way.

But, after abuse, infighting, and endless nonsense, we did leave. I even started visiting poor, poor, Christianity. One morning I had an "epiphany" of sorts listening to the sharing. The minister said at one point, "First the Lord, then our family, then our jobs and the church." Lights went off. My circuits got rewired.

Then I began to think about the deleterious effects on so many lives by placing Christ and the church inseparably together. Firstly, by filling our lives with endless church service and ministry messages, we got disconnected from the Lord Himself. Secondly, by filling our lives with endless church service and ministry messages, we didn't have family. By improperly connecting Christ and the Church, we ended up with only church, and not Christ or family.

Very convenient teaching for WL and the Blendeds!
01-01-2018 04:09 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

When I found the Bereans forum in 2005, UntoHim and Matt Anderson (his mom wrote "Thread of Gold" book on her story) were the moderators of the LC subforum. It had other subforums on a host of other religions. With all the chaos surrounding LSM's quarantines and takeover of the GLA LC's, that forum was the goto site to expose and discuss all of LSM's crooked endeavors and writings. Numerous former elders and workers posted, and with so much excellent input from so many witnesses, it was undeniable how twisted and corrupt LSM had become.

No one really knew why the Philipino owners of the Bereans website became increasingly erratic. At one point they upgraded their software, and all the archives were lost. Everything on that site is now gone. So UntoHim was able to start this forum. In the beginning, the two forums competed, and eventually we all jumped off that sinking ship. Now, after a decade, we get noticed by all the search forums and LSM is just furious about that, but they can't file lawsuits against internet forums.
12-31-2017 09:48 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Years ago, the whole saga of the Bible Answer Man was a recurring nightmare of mine. Lee and BAM had a public feud in Orange County about the time I joined the LC. My cousin (same age went to HS together) got saved about the same time as I did, but fashioned himself as a soapbox apologetic defender of the faith with Walter Martin as his hero. He found out that I was in the LC, and informed everyone about it. He terrorized the LC on the university he was at. He never approached me for fellowship but would use every family gathering to assault me with accusations. He ruined a couple of my siblings' weddings for me. Cousin was not even invited but had a heavenly calling to show up and defame me. There was never conversation or fellowship -- only accusations. Eventually cousin contracted skin cancer in his late 30's and died a horrible death sipping morphine in the back room. Or so I was told.

Back in the 70's Walter Martin made a huge deal about modalism with W. Lee. When the Jonestown suicide/massacre happened in 1978, all of America was spooked by cults and cult leaders. I defended Lee for years, and never thought that he was a modalist or a heretic. Lee loved a good fight though, playing the victim as a "persecuted apostle." With both Lee and Martin convinced that they both were the true defenders of the faith, neither would ever back down or dream of reconciliation. It really suited Lee's world view that all of Christianity was out to destroy the Lord's Recovery, and he alone was faithful to the Lord. So it's no wonder that me and all the brothers I knew felt the same way.

Decades later Hank Hannegraft was paid off, wined and dined by LSM, to flip-flop his position on the LC. He lived a lavish lifestyle, and many of his former associates have no respect for the guy. It's so funny and ironic that LSM and the LC's found actual validation from HH and CRI. It was a hot topic on this forum for a while. "We Were Wrong" was basically a polished farce. Frankly they never focused on the real issues at LSM. No outsiders have. That is the benefit of this internet forum -- we can read the actual testimonies of real witnesses who were LC members for decades. Neither Martin nor Hankygraft ever portrayed the LSM accurately. They missed everything important, and never interviewed her actual trail of victims.

I'm just including this whole quote from you because I'm reading it and feeling "shocked" that I'm still shocked about everything in your response. I'm sure it's old news to many on here but I'm assuming many can remember when they came out of the LC and were "shocked" by information they heard/believed and then kept being confirmed. I know this is true, I've read it, I believe it, but still- hearing it confirmed still manages to upset me....

Like I'm waiting to be proven wrong, and it's not happening....

I'm just in a totally different perspective now and gaining my bearings, I guess. It's one thing to see some videos on youtube bashing Hank Hanegraff but you have to realize that dear dear believers who I loved and respected felt so JUSTIFIED by that article. It PROVED everything they/we believed....that just becomes a part of you and it makes me realize how damaging the mindset in the LC really was. Maybe it's the Lord's plan for me, I don't know. But turning away from this mindset and opposing it is so lonely, and can I say, IMPOSSIBLE without a forum like this. I'm getting "fed" (sorry- LC term!) from not only the accounts but the verses, songs, testimonies on this site. Who knew- all these hundreds and into thousands of people have a life that goes on after leaving for GOOD. It's one thing to believe it, another to SEE IT HAPPENING. Is it UNTO HIM that started this site? I'm not clear on that. Whoever started it, thank you. And thank you to whoever started the Bereans site. And everyone that has posted and written so much. You have NO IDEA the anchor its been for me, some of my family now, and some friends that are starting to read. My extended family has reached out, I feel like the Lord is doing something. I have to believe that.

If all this is true, its just makes me wonder how H.H. sleeps at night. How do you get to a point when you justify this? Do you not think you'll pay in eternity for taking "blood money" (tithes) in exchange for a misguided Christian group's justification? If it's true, H.H. is misleading thousands and thousands of people and SOLIDIFYING their relationship with a group that is taking FULL advantage of their trusting nature (as a whole). I know we're all capable of anything but it's just devastating to see how evil can creep in these groups of people and do so much damage. A friend of mine is reading, "My unforgettable memories" by Lily Hsu and recommended it. I've seen it posted on this site. I'm just at a point where I don't want to hear about more Christian men (or women) being accused of wrong doings. I tend to believe it, given the nature of the situation. But the truth is, it doesn't matter. Jesus reigns.

I'm tired of seeing my family's relationships and others strained, seeing them spend money on LSM gimmicks, seeing people be exploited. You're right, it's a recurring nightmare.

But it's New Years Eve, it's time to look forward for me, I think. I do want to read more on church history and get facts straight. If anything, to help anyone who approaches me about it (I've made my opinion known) but first, I need to learn for myself.

I'm so sorry about your cousin, I don't doubt he had a genuine salvation. It sounds like he may have stayed immature in his walk with the Lord (something we all face), and didn't let the Lord grow in him (side note- even saying that I'm thinking, "is this LC lingo- should I be saying that??). But really, that is incredibly sad for your family and I'm so sorry. I hope there was some forgiveness and repentance there, I really can't imagine that feeling of being Christians and feeling nothing short of hate to another Christian. Not just anger, but what seems like a deep hate or at least opposition. I know it looks like a slippery slope though and I hope God has mercy on my family that we don't get there, or with other people. On the other hand, I think there is a responsibility to be held accountable- especially to people in that position in life and leadership. People seem to want the power but none of the accountability. I know most of us do what we're doing because we think we're right! But "without love"- nothing matters. It doesn't matter how right we think we are, without love. It sounds like you and so many (myself included) where just in "group think" mode with Lee. Group think is so dangerous, more so with spiritual things, in my opinion. The balance of "being one" and "group think" is something I feel to someday learn where the lines are drawn between the two.

Without love, I wouldn't have had a relationship with my grandparents (on either side, and interestingly enough- from opposite ends) or with my aunts/uncles/cousins. Reading so many stories makes me realize how much I have to be thankful for. It may have not been perfect, but they got through it- with love.

My grandfather was a pastor (in a denomination so no good according to my parents mindsets at the time) and I've recently heard he told my grandmother, aunt and uncle that, "Love will get our family through this," and "we are going to love them to death" when things were at an extremely difficult point in the late 70's early 80's. Back then, things were way more extreme. Some were saying to choose either family or the church, my parents wouldn't even enter home with Christmas trees, it was all very extreme. I don't remember any of that so at least it was kept hidden from me or the extremeness of it faded by the time I was in elementary school. I just say all that because I'm really just reminding myself (and others too) that is the NUMBER ONE priority and to pray that God gives you that LOVE every day, when it's hard. I know I have some "hard" days ahead where I'll need it!

It sounds like the Jonestown hype is similar to the Scientology hype going on today. On one hand, it taught me a lot about mind control when watching these documentaries and series, and then studying them myself because of some of the similarities I saw. On the other hand, I heard that these methods differ in severity and I should actually be thankful in comparison that our family was not in Scientology! Perspective is a hard and necessary, every day needed sort of thing. I'm sorry your cousin created such a situation, it seems his mindset was extrement narrowed. Obviously, that is not the nature of Jesus and your cousins conscience probably wasn't in tune with where it needed to be. There's no excuse for ruining weddings or awkward confrontational accusations. And I sorry to hear that W.L. was his hero//. I did seem to like that Walter Martin didn't care about what people thought about him, because I have a love/hate issue with that myself with people. But that doesn't mean that his motives were totally pure and even if they were, it's no excuse for your cousin to behave like that, obviously.

I feel like these "little things" are just the seed that lead us on a path away from connecting with each other. It's a really dangerous thing to think we're superior and have it right, and look at other people from that mindset. Even with myself, now, I have to force myself to stop and "let God move" it, and not control it. It's an incredibly hard thing and most of the time, I fail.

I think that's the main issue though that happens with all of us, one way or another. Our ego's or "flesh" or however you want to describe it, gets in the way of connection. Sometimes you just can't connect because there's too many walls. With some relationships, it takes more than "one day" of that sort of attitude.

I just personally think that with Lee and Martin, modalism and practices were probably secondary issues. I can see them both having a "haughty" spirit. Obviously, that's going to be a standstill. But when you're famous (they both were in their own respects) I feel like the ability to be humble is slowly taken away. When no one questions you, how can you stand to be questioned? I'm looking back at your comment now, so Walter Martin and WL had a public feud or H.H and WL? Where did it happen? Was it set up as a debate? I'd pay good money to have seen that, ha!! It would be entertaining but in reality, just sad. I'm not judging their salvation but we're to love our neighbor, not "saved" neighbor and they're not even doing that, and calling themselves Christians. I think this is a big issue bc no matter the offense, with Lee, Nee, anyone....in Christ, we're one. And definitely ONLY in Christ, bc I don't really feel anything close to WL at all. And I don't feel it's my place to say anything about that. I don't know. It's just sad these guys who probably helped many people, hurt more people by causing division.

It's so sad to hear about H.H. but after realizing all this about WL and the LC, I guess I'm not as easily shocked! After the article came out, I was told from an older full-time sister (she was widowed and I genuinely honor and respect this woman from what I've seen). Even so, she is not resistant from thought reform tactics and she believed what she was telling me when she told me that Hank Hanagraff had started attending some home meetings in CA and that he probably just had conflict meeting full time with the local church because of his position as the "Bible answer man." It was definitely hinted though that at this point, if he wasn't in the position at CRI- then he would probably be meeting with the church. Well I'm sorry, I just have a hard time believing this given that he's now a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I agree that in Europe- it looks totally dead and there may be some "life" brewing in the US in these groups but it come down to one of the basic doctrines of the faith- and a big one, right? Justification by faith. I am almost not qualified to speak on this, I'm not actually- so I take zero offense to being corrected....the E.O.C. believes in faith plus works for 99% of people. You get "free ride" if you immediately believe before you die. That was the impression I got after learning about it but I admit, I may have it wrong. With H.H., I already suspected the "We were wrong article seemed too contrived last month, really believed this was some sort of sham when H.H. converted. You don't build your reputation on being Protestant and then flip like that without your motives being questioned. That is a BIG DEAL to do that, in my opinion. He was the Bible answer man, not just Joe Schmoe going to "life church." This was his career too. It just didn't make any sense except for financial gain. So yes, I believed more that he was a con and that article called him out on it too. I didn't know there was so much controversy on this forum about it, I'll have to read about it. What do you know about him being "wined and dined", Ohio? Seeing the issues now, I can obviously see that the REAL issues in the LC were definitely not addressed by the "We were Wrong" article but at the time, of course, I had no idea. It's easy to just assume that a Christian Research Journal would accurately cover all the appropriate topics to cover! Whether past or present....

Obviously, that is not the case! I'm "scratching the surface" of some of the writings/exposing of doctrines on this forum and I'm so thankful for it!!

It's almost the New Year now... I obviously have no life and I'm using this moment to be very introspective when going into 2018. I'm fine with that though. This year has been so crazy for me in multiple ways and this site has been invaluable.

Happy New Year everyone and my prayer is that God does His work in us all
12-30-2017 06:15 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Of course, H.H. has every right to write books and make the substantial income that he makes as long as he's not being "paid" to have a certain opinion. He seems nice enough but I think there's a little smoke there....it definitely hit me when I heard he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Years ago, the whole saga of the Bible Answer Man was a recurring nightmare of mine. Lee and BAM had a public feud in Orange County about the time I joined the LC. My cousin (same age went to HS together) got saved about the same time as I did, but fashioned himself as a soapbox apologetic defender of the faith with Walter Martin as his hero. He found out that I was in the LC, and informed everyone about it. He terrorized the LC on the university he was at. He never approached me for fellowship but would use every family gathering to assault me with accusations. He ruined a couple of my siblings' weddings for me. Cousin was not even invited but had a heavenly calling to show up and defame me. There was never conversation or fellowship -- only accusations. Eventually cousin contracted skin cancer in his late 30's and died a horrible death sipping morphine in the back room. Or so I was told.

Back in the 70's Walter Martin made a huge deal about modalism with W. Lee. When the Jonestown suicide/massacre happened in 1978, all of America was spooked by cults and cult leaders. I defended Lee for years, and never thought that he was a modalist or a heretic. Lee loved a good fight though, playing the victim as a "persecuted apostle." With both Lee and Martin convinced that they both were the true defenders of the faith, neither would ever back down or dream of reconciliation. It really suited Lee's world view that all of Christianity was out to destroy the Lord's Recovery, and he alone was faithful to the Lord. So it's no wonder that me and all the brothers I knew felt the same way.

Decades later Hank Hannegraft was paid off, wined and dined by LSM, to flip-flop his position on the LC. He lived a lavish lifestyle, and many of his former associates have no respect for the guy. It's so funny and ironic that LSM and the LC's found actual validation from HH and CRI. It was a hot topic on this forum for a while. "We Were Wrong" was basically a polished farce. Frankly they never focused on the real issues at LSM. No outsiders have. That is the benefit of this internet forum -- we can read the actual testimonies of real witnesses who were LC members for decades. Neither Martin nor Hankygraft ever portrayed the LSM accurately. They missed everything important, and never interviewed her actual trail of victims.
12-29-2017 08:35 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
"I'm not familiar with his relationship wth Tozer.

Concerning Lee's use of spin to rewrite history, you are spot on. I have rejected every bit of church history which I heard from Lee. It was all distorted and self-serving. While other Christians have espoused remnant theology, calling themselves the Restoration, or in our case the Recovery, Lee developed a MOTA genealogy beginning with Martin Luther. In order to make it work, he needs to find a MOTA for every age. His choice of Jean Guyon for the 17th century is so comical.

Darby was chosen for the 19th century. Have you ever read about George Muller's life of faith and work with orphanages? Darby expelled him, and for decades, membership in his little church club was contingent upon condemning Muller. What kind of oneness is that? After all my study of history, I concluded that nearly every quarantine was just a lynching. They had nothing to with teachings or heresy, rather were power struggles to eliminate all potential rivals, and silence those who could speak the truth.

Be careful how much investigative reading you decide to take on. It's endless!"






Oh, I'm realizing that!!! For whatever reason, I feel drawn to it though. Maybe because of the deprogramming that might be happening? I'm just guessing....I still want to go see someone at least once for that and see how it goes.

I think I'm drawn to it to because after being told "how it is" for so long, I want to find out for myself. I get that other people don't need to do that- but some do. We'll see where it takes me and how far I go with it!

I really liked that article from assembly life though- wow. Besides being a great writer, he covered so many topics in the LC I've had issues with and more I didn't know about. I had no idea about the factions other than the MW LC's and didn't realize the details of the movement in China. He had some really great points about mistakes being made and I thought his outlook for the future makes sense. I liked his line, "A ship headed towards an iceberg, if not moved, will hit the iceberg." That's probably not an accurate quote but it was something to that effect!

I was glad he shined some light on the Hank Hanegraff situation too. Obviously, I don't think anyone has hard proof, or I haven't seen it yet, but several of his former co-workers have spoken out against him, saying he really mishandled certain situations. They said he "redeemed" another "off" Christian group of bikers that CRI had formerly spoken out against. Basically, they were accusing him of taking money or donations that were coming in from that group and mishandling it somehow. It definitely didn't seem on the "up and up." Who knows, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt but he should definitely answer to the allegations- they're serious ones.

I was also glad the writer recognized the issue of how the "shouters" in China (early local churches of Lee- spin off of Little Flock of Nee <------correct me if I'm wrong) were persecuted by the government. This had bothered me and I'll explain more later...We got a very different version of this in LC! The way I heard was that all the persecution was the result of CRI's article about the local church. When you look at it though, it's much more complicated. Obviously, that article may have aided the persecution but there were already claims of baptizing in the name of Lee and Nee that are written about from what seem like respected authors in China. If they were doing that, it's not right but you have to remember that the United States has religious freedom, even for cults. The Chinese government didn't and they took note of what was being written and reported in China, not just taking into consideration CRI's opinion at the time. It's just not fair to blame CRI solely for the people who were imprisoned, genuine or not genuine believers. I'm sure many probably were genuine believers and that's horrible! But the culture in the LC is to always be "victimized" and "attacked" and that game is getting old. People being imprisoned in China for behavior we really don't know about shouldn't be blamed on CRI. CRI's is an Christian apologetic organization and they were just doing their job looking into the LC. This wasn't some random uneducated person who wrote a book attacking the LC- they were apologetics. I agree that they could have looked more into their research and its tragic that people were put in prison but it's not fair for WL or LSM to "victimize" themselves and say they're being attacked when their practices/teachings are questioned. That's just a normal thing that happens in some Christian groups. Wouldn't the Biblical response to being called a cult (when you believe your teachings and practices are orthodox and your a member of the body of Christ) to be to fellowship/explain/defend yourself to these fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? Obviously, that's not how it went down. I listened to an audio of Walter Martin (head of CRI at the time) speaking at an event and he claimed to have reached out to WL and that he was denied. If that's true, how is it justified that WL doesn't discuss the issues with Martin, a believer? He just victimized himself and the LC, attacked CRI, and used the situation with Chinese believers and a communist government imprisoning them to further "victimize" himself and the LC (the us vs. them tactic is play). In reality, LC and LSM have spent MILLIONS suing people, Christians included, "attacking" them! It's ridiculously hypocritical. Maybe Martin was lying (its possible) about WL refusing to meet with him. But, did WL ever meet with someone who questioned his teachings outside the LC? Doesn't the Bible tell us to first go to our brother if there is an offense? I understand, that works both ways. I'm just pointing out the "victim card" WL/LSM uses. It trickles down to the minds of all our family members who are still in as well, trust me. I spent a lot of time researching this topic because it was so hard for me to accept that WL was not who he said he was. We sort of built our family lifestyle around that fact that this was "the way" or sorry, "the new way." I'm glad I know now, I just wish I had heard this "poison" (ha!) sooner! But- I'm grateful to know now!

Just a thought- I wonder if you can specify in your tithes to the LC if you don't want your money to go to LSM or the DCP (group who sues)? If someone knows, please let me know. I'm wondering if my family knows their money goes to lawsuits when they tithe. That really bothers me, such exploitation if tithes go to that.

With the situation the LC used in China to blame CRI and victimize themselves-I think we all want this black and white explanation that doesn't exist. The most probable explanation to me is that the "shouters" or early LC of Lee may have been a little misguided, whether that is intentional of Lee or not, it doesn't matter in this point. It's the fact that the LC blamed CRI solely (from what I heard/read) at the time for these Chinese Christians being put in jail. Obviously, it was a complicated situation but then, VICTORY!!!!! When CRI came out with "We were wrong," it WAS spread around the LC like wildfire. Everyone really was "vindicated!" I felt so, at least! Yes, the article really nailed it- that was definitely the mindset. The journal was propped up on the bookshelf counter for probably over a year, ready for anyone to buy. Which of course, many did.

I didn't think anything about it at the time when the "We were Wrong" article was released. I thought it seemed to register more with the older saints, understandably. When looking into LC issues I remember reading some suspicions about it and that's when I saw all the controversy. It's hard to know what to believe but then later, reading about H.H.'s conversion to the Eastern Orthodox church, that just really made me question him. I haven't read any of his books but I was under the assumption that CRI and all writings were of a Protestant nature. I read all sorts of things people were saying and he's a pretty controversial person, to say the least. Some claimed he switched to the E.O.C. because he was getting free radio time to promote his material on a radio station owned by them.... I almost hate to write these things because I obviously don't know and I'm not going to spend my day searching for the "proof." But, I think questions should definitely be answered around the situation with CRI/H.H. and LSM/LC. If nothing manipulative/deceitful occurred- then great! But they should have full transparency with financial matters related to this because its obviously a win/win situation for both parties and given what H.H. was accused of by his staff previously, it just doesn't sit right. LSM/LC is vindicated and CRI/H.H. makes money and gains recognition. CRI is understandably going to profit from the sale of their journals to the saints, and that is understandable. I would just in interested to see how both parties may have profited financially from it. Obviously the LC profited from a P.R. standpoint, as the article mentions. I'd say CRI suffered in that aspect and they probably knew that would be the case. I just wonder if the motive was genuine repentance or financial gain.

Of course, H.H. has every right to write books and make the substantial income that he makes as long as he's not being "paid" to have a certain opinion. He seems nice enough but I think there's a little smoke there....it definitely hit me when I heard he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. They BARELY believe in justification by faith. There's a lot of faith plus works doctrine involved. I just thought it was pretty hypocritical given the fact that he's made his living being the "Bible Answer Man," and answering questions from what was obviously a Protestant perspective and now he's going back on all that at least doctrinally. That's kind of a big deal to me. I watched a video of him speaking at Gretchen Passentino's funeral, he spoke of how she was a friend, and how he admired that she could say, "We were wrong." If I'm remembering it correctly, he said he said asked her to help him "take a second look" at the LC. So they were a team, but the differences between the two were obvious. H.H. is very cool and collected, stylish with those white rimmed glasses, and G.P. seemed like just a normal, sweet, older woman who said she was, "a crazy Jesus lover."

I also watched a video of a testimony from Gretchen Passentino in a meeting apologizing and seemed like she was taking the blame fully for these Chinese Christians being put in jail. Like I said, I don't know but it definitely seems more complicated than that. She seemed really sweet, like she loved Jesus, and I have no doubt that she saw genuine believers in the LC and recanted her work because of that. And fairly, maybe some or all of it needed to be recanted. I just didn't like how all the blame seemed to be put on her and not H.H., Walter Martin, or the Chinese government.... There were a lot of factors involved! I just wonder how involved she was in the whole "vindication" between LSM and CRI. She seems genuine and I hope she wasn't used by H.H. to "seal the deal." I know it's not fair to speculate, but the way in which it all happened is just fishy. Also, someone filmed this testimony in a meeting probably without her knowledge (assuming with the low camera angle/side view) and put it on you tube. Maybe she gave permission afterwards, but you can tell she doesn't know she's being filmed and that's just a little sneaky in my opinion. She's there apologizing, if she wanted to film something and put it on you tube- she would. She already helped work on the article- but that person needed the video proof too! I don't know, I guess I just wouldn't like being filmed without my knowledge and thought it was less than classy. Obviously, the "vindication" was strong with that saint!!

I'm a little confused on who G.P. worked with though in the 70's? Was it H.H. or Walter Martin, the original leader of CRI? I've watched videos of Walter Martin- I really like him. I'm not sure what exactly he got wrong the LC but he seemed to get some of it right. I definitely agree with his points on pray-reading. That NEVER worked for me. I always blamed it on my ADD but I need to read the whole verse at once - then pray when I feel to. That's just me! Anyways, I don't know much about Walter Martin but he seems like someone who called it like he saw it. I can respect that. I heard (correct me if I'm wrong anyone), he got WL's interpretation of the Trinity wrong and called it modalism. I've read debates on that and honestly, Lee is so confusing to me regarding that topic and seems to contradict himself from one paragraph to the next. "It's this, but it's really that- but its really both" (-WL) That is basically how I feel after reading some of his explanations! I used to think I wasn't smart enough (ironically, that's the goal) But no, he's confusing at times. I never realized it's part of the "high teaching" tactic in thought reform- Make the teaching really confusing, use big words, and people blindly follow. It's a common tactic used in cults, very sad WL utilized it.

Either way, It's just not my place to determine that whether Walter Martin was right about ALL of what he said about WL. But he made points that dealt with bad practices, not just issues with doctrine, which I've personally had issues with before hearing them pointed out by Martin.

I apologize for rambling on about all that but that article touched on it and it's something that has bothered me. I suspected there was something fishy with CRI but I'm glad that article calls them out on it! It needs to be looked at for sure.

I'll have to read about Mueller and Darby after the links about the Germany situation. Thanks for sending Ohio. I agree there's a point at which it's too much, but I do want to "get out" the church history I've heard and get it straight at some point. You're right, I've always heard each century has a "prophet" of some sort. In my locality I think I just heard the term M.O.T.A. a few times. I heard "modern-day prophet" though, a lot. But yes, we were taught that there was a kind of lineage, starting with Luther- going down to Nee, then WL. And progressively, these people uncovered all the "hidden mysteries" of the Bible. Aside from questioning whether Nee or Lee was a part of that, I accepted that as truth until today.

Oh my. I have a lot to learn.
12-29-2017 03:09 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Ok, that makes sense. Thank you...I still wonder how other churches allow for accountability though and why the local churches don't ask for this given that this model doesn't work and encourages abuse. I know there are verses that talk about accountability with believers. I've read them and believe that as brothers and sisters, the Bible says we are to be accountable to each other. I need to look some up but all the verses about companionship and how to approach each other about offenses are all covering the subject of accountability, right?

I guess what I'm asking is, where does that accountability end as far as being an elder? Obviously, I don't believe it should but surely they can't just say that an elder isn't held accountable because he's a type of Moses and a N.T. minister. I'm not trying to put you on the spot and I know it's not an easy question (I could read the ministry to find out- ha!) but I want to make sure that's what you're saying they believe. I've read a lot of your posts and you seem very knowledgable about the ministry so I thought you'd know!

Even if they were right, how do they support that there's no accountability between the NT minister type of Moses, AKA elder, AKA a physical man capable of sin, and the saints?

I'm sorry, I'm asking hard questions. I'm thinking the answer is - they can't. I'm just curious at how they may try to defend it- I don't see how they can.
Despite arguments to the contrary, the LC program is quite hierarchical. Everyone is accountable, except for the guy on top, which explains the power struggles by successors to be the guy on "top."

Moses was wrongly used as a type of NT leader because he was accountable only to God. If you talk back to him, you will get leprosy, like his sister Meriam. Pretty powerful deterrent to keep silent, eh? Thus, all who speak their conscience about Lee's business failings or his sons' wicked ways were immediately branded a rebellious "leper," and were cursed. This is the incentive Lee had to maintain his status as MOTA. No other elder or worker enjoyed this privilege!

Then, in order to prevent a gifted successor like TItus Chu, Lee had to change the rules and declare that the age of MOTA's was now over. Very convenient!
12-29-2017 02:53 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
This guy nailed it- at least with the LSM churches, from my experience. Wow, bravo. I'm sure this has helped and will continue to help people see behind the "facade." Thanks so much for posting that- I would definitely encourage anyone seeing to read and share!
John Myer was an elder and full-timer for years in the Ohio area.

I have always considered him one of the most "listenable" ministers I knew.

His entire book is worth your reading.
12-28-2017 11:01 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

This guy nailed it- at least with the LSM churches, from my experience. Wow, bravo. I'm sure this has helped and will continue to help people see behind the "facade." Thanks so much for posting that- I would definitely encourage anyone seeing to read and share!
12-28-2017 10:30 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn View Post
I’m more happy to try to help a fellow believer and ex-LC’er. I’m pretty sure that I actually kept one RV Bible without footnotes as well. Anything with commentary hit the dumpster.

Concerning the things embedded/programmed into me, well, there were quite a few. The hivemind/groupthink was definitely there. Much of the LSM teaching regarding “poor degraded Christianity” and its view of the members of thereof, the elitest mindset, LDM lingo. Feeling that I had the best ministry on earth, yet being insatisfies with it and my walk with the Lord. Not wanting to fellowship with members of the Body outside of the LC. Man, so many things that don’t even come to mind right now, but I will catch when I hear myself talking with other believers who didn’t grow up in the LC.

In order to get de-programmed just ask the Holy Spirit to remove all that religious LSM junk and to renew your mind. ��

Try to be open to other ministries. Listening to Dan Mohler has been AMAZING!

Watch this!

Dan M. Normal Christianity

I hope this helps.



Numbers 6:23-27

23 “Tell Aaron and his sons, ‘This is how you are to bless the Israelites. Say to them:

24 “‘“The Lord bless you
and keep you;

25 the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;

26 the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.”’
Thank you! I just subscribed and will have to watch later, it's a little long being this late. I feel like anything that helped former LC members though is going to be good for me so thank you and I will watch it at some point! Maybe a car ride
12-28-2017 10:11 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intothewind View Post
Kumbaya,

Thanks so much for sharing and being brazen in questioning. It is upsetting to see major questions go unanswered.

You raise great points of talking to family. All ny immediate nuclear family are still very strong for the recovery indeed. So far as there belief system is concerned I'm damned but perhaps they are unaware of how far around my world view has flipped. I'm sure they pray for me, and I do still feel guilty.

I've had about the same level of success talking with my family as you have...and am out of ideas at this point.
I'm sorry to hear that. Sometimes I feel like if they could just let their guard down for 5 minutes and get on this site, it would all come together for them. Or, in their eyes- all fall apart probably.

It's the getting 5 minutes of their guard down that's hard. I think the most important thing is that you have a relationship with them even if you don't agree right now. I have friends who grew up in the LC with me who have parents still in and in one situation, a parent of my friend doesn't even keep track of their grandkids ages. They are of sound mind, they just don't care. Their focus is on the people in the LC and LC only. They don't involve themselves in their kids/grandkids lives bc they don't go to the meetings anymore. Any time my friends sees her dad or her kids do, it's because SHE'S made the effort. Yet, they have college kids in their home at least once a week, probably more like 2-3 times a week. It's really hurtful to her. It's so sad but I'm honestly grateful my family isn't like that at all.

I just see what it could be with other people's situations so I would say that we are actually the lucky ones. I think keeping that relationship with them is the most important thing to me. I can't push too much - it's so hard though. It's just good to keep things in perspective- there a lot of disconnected families due to the LC. I think the extremeness of the LC lifestyle is shown so much when in comparison to other family members, it can be easier for them to just pull away than face it.

Anything you've tried that DIDN'T work you want to share? Also, what do you feel guilty about?
12-28-2017 12:48 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Nee and Lee both used Moses as their basis for "Spiritual Authority," alleging that Moses could be a type of N.T. Ministers. That reasoning is seriously flawed. The Bible tells us that Moses is uniquely a type of Christ.

See Deuteronomy 18.15-18 Moses prophecy concerning Christ.

Hebrews Chapter 3. Moses and his ministry was a strong type of Christ and His ministry.

There is no indication in scripture that Moses was ever a type of the apostles or ministers in the N.T.
Ok, that makes sense. Thank you...I still wonder how other churches allow for accountability though and why the local churches don't ask for this given that this model doesn't work and encourages abuse. I know there are verses that talk about accountability with believers. I've read them and believe that as brothers and sisters, the Bible says we are to be accountable to each other. I need to look some up but all the verses about companionship and how to approach each other about offenses are all covering the subject of accountability, right?

I guess what I'm asking is, where does that accountability end as far as being an elder? Obviously, I don't believe it should but surely they can't just say that an elder isn't held accountable because he's a type of Moses and a N.T. minister. I'm not trying to put you on the spot and I know it's not an easy question (I could read the ministry to find out- ha!) but I want to make sure that's what you're saying they believe. I've read a lot of your posts and you seem very knowledgable about the ministry so I thought you'd know!

Even if they were right, how do they support that there's no accountability between the NT minister type of Moses, AKA elder, AKA a physical man capable of sin, and the saints?

I'm sorry, I'm asking hard questions. I'm thinking the answer is - they can't. I'm just curious at how they may try to defend it- I don't see how they can.
12-28-2017 12:28 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
It takes reading it like that to see it, it is hypocrisy. Thanks for posting the link, will read....

I know I've seen and think I've read at least part of the book, "Spiritual Authority" by WL. It would have been so long ago but it comes to mind now. We had to mind-numbingly read outloud, in a circle, many ministry books in the YP meeting's and truth schools back then and they all sort of blur together for me. I admit, I wasn't always paying attention!

It's not a top priority of mine but I would be curious to see how (if at all ) they defend these practices in that book. Has anyone read it and does it (try to) justify the practices that are hypocritical to being held accountable?
Nee and Lee both used Moses as their basis for "Spiritual Authority," alleging that Moses could be a type of N.T. Ministers. That reasoning is seriously flawed. The Bible tells us that Moses is uniquely a type of Christ.

See Deuteronomy 18.15-18 Moses prophecy concerning Christ.

Hebrews Chapter 3. Moses and his ministry was a strong type of Christ and His ministry.

There is no indication in scripture that Moses was ever a type of the apostles or ministers in the N.T.
12-28-2017 11:39 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The people who run the ministry also run the book publishing company which distributes the ministry materials. The ministry mandates that the local churches only use ministry materials, which are conveniently supplied by the publishing house. A bit of a conflict of interest, yes.

Second, vis-à-vis the "messy kitchen" quote. I heard that phrase also. "Forgive us our messy kitchen, but we're cooking food for people to eat." Yet these same people delight in pointing out everyone else's messy kitchen, calling it "satanic" and "devilish" and so forth. Why the double standard? Subjective, much?

And when they point out errors, it is a "correction", right? Like "Affirmation and Critique" magazine. But if you point out their errors, it is no longer "critique" but an "attack" or a "slander" or "rebellion". Again, hypersubjectivity rules the day.

I looked up "Witness Lee messy kitchen" and found the following essay, by a brother who made it through the LSM/lc system and is now doing Christian ministry apart from their control. He makes some interesting comments.

http://assemblylife.com/witness-lee-...chapter-15.htm


It takes reading it like that to see it, it is hypocrisy. Thanks for posting the link, will read....

I know I've seen and think I've read at least part of the book, "Spiritual Authority" by WL. It would have been so long ago but it comes to mind now. We had to mind-numbingly read outloud, in a circle, many ministry books in the YP meeting's and truth schools back then and they all sort of blur together for me. I admit, I wasn't always paying attention!

It's not a top priority of mine but I would be curious to see how (if at all ) they defend these practices in that book. Has anyone read it and does it (try to) justify the practices that are hypocritical to being held accountable?

I've read their defense of the one publishing arm AKA "one trumpet" and defense of quarantining on their "afaithfulword" site.

The STRETCH that they use in those verses (which there are maybe 3, possibly 4!) of how they justify their practices compared to ministry quotes was unbelievable. The ministry should NOT be used to determine local church practices, right? I would think even the saints would agree to that. But, they are getting away with it. Crazy!!
12-28-2017 05:49 AM
LifeGoesOn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Thank you for responding! A little while after your post I hesitantly, bravely, and determinedly threw away my Recovery version of the Bible with footnotes. I did keep the Recovery Version I had with no footnotes.

Thanks for saying that, it definitely gave me the "push" I needed.

Out of curiosity, would you be interested in explaining what things were "embedded" into you? I'm starting to see things and behaviors of mine (even just in life) that I think were at least introduced or encouraged in the LC. I also think there are similarities with everyone but women will probably have another set of issues, possibly equal in number- but different.


Obviously, I'm talking about my family and my experience in one locality of the local church's in the 80's and 90's. Everyone's family and experience is different but I've also seen so many similarities. That's why I was hoping you could share a little of some of the ways you've "de-programmed" from this mindset. I feel like we might all have similar things to deal with regarding it!

I’m more happy to try to help a fellow believer and ex-LC’er. I’m pretty sure that I actually kept one RV Bible without footnotes as well. Anything with commentary hit the dumpster.

Concerning the things embedded/programmed into me, well, there were quite a few. The hivemind/groupthink was definitely there. Much of the LSM teaching regarding “poor degraded Christianity” and its view of the members of thereof, the elitest mindset, LDM lingo. Feeling that I had the best ministry on earth, yet being insatisfies with it and my walk with the Lord. Not wanting to fellowship with members of the Body outside of the LC. Man, so many things that don’t even come to mind right now, but I will catch when I hear myself talking with other believers who didn’t grow up in the LC.

In order to get de-programmed just ask the Holy Spirit to remove all that religious LSM junk and to renew your mind. 😃

Try to be open to other ministries. Listening to Dan Mohler has been AMAZING!

Watch this!

Dan M. Normal Christianity

I hope this helps.



Numbers 6:23-27

23 “Tell Aaron and his sons, ‘This is how you are to bless the Israelites. Say to them:

24 “‘“The Lord bless you
and keep you;

25 the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;

26 the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.”’
12-28-2017 05:43 AM
aron
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I have many issues, a lot of which I see on this site mentioned. Maybe I haven’t searched correctly for this topic but I haven’t seen posts about the fact that LSM is basically a business that runs the church now. Who owns LSM? Ron Kangus? (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

So he runs LSM and makes decisions as one of the “blending brothers” for the church.

RED FLAG?????

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”

I don’t care WHAT you’re selling, preaching, whatever. This is a TERRIBLE model to follow for a church. No wonder so much sin, corruption, and divisiveness has happened!!

All the churches and people that were quarantined for having their own publications were told there could only be “one trumpet” by the leading brothers in Anaheim, who conveniently, also control LSM.

This is infuriating. I really hope I’m wrong and if someone can refute it, please do.

What this is besides being a terrible abuse, is a multilevel direct sales model. They might as well have copied Herbalife’s business model and stamped “The local church” on it.

Disgusting in my opinion.

I mentioned this to a “saint” or woman I know in the local church and she said, “well, the structure is messy but as long as you’re getting fed. Kitchens get messy when you make the food but the purpose is to eat.”
The people who run the ministry also run the book publishing company which distributes the ministry materials. The ministry mandates that the local churches only use ministry materials, which are conveniently supplied by the publishing house. A bit of a conflict of interest, yes.

Second, vis-à-vis the "messy kitchen" quote. I heard that phrase also. "Forgive us our messy kitchen, but we're cooking food for people to eat." Yet these same people delight in pointing out everyone else's messy kitchen, calling it "satanic" and "devilish" and so forth. Why the double standard? Subjective, much?

And when they point out errors, it is a "correction", right? Like "Affirmation and Critique" magazine. But if you point out their errors, it is no longer "critique" but an "attack" or a "slander" or "rebellion". Again, hypersubjectivity rules the day.

I looked up "Witness Lee messy kitchen" and found the following essay, by a brother who made it through the LSM/lc system and is now doing Christian ministry apart from their control. He makes some interesting comments.

http://assemblylife.com/witness-lee-...chapter-15.htm
12-26-2017 12:34 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn View Post
In all love I say YES, make sure to start this process first. This may take time, but it’s crucial. I am still seeing things that are deeply embedded into my being from decades of LSM programming.

I threw ALL of the LSM materials I had in my house in the trash, including the Recovery Version of the Bible. There may actually be more words by WL in the RV version than those of God Himself! My “understanding” of the Scriptures was based entirely on WL and the LSM. That was my fault for not being a Berean. I believe this is the case for many in TLR.

Seek Him and ask the Holy Spirit to empty you of EVERYTHING that is NOT of God (teachings, culture, behavior, vocabulary, etc.). Ask Him to guide you as you read the Word.

He is faithful and will do it!

“Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.”

**1 Thessalonians‬ *5:24‬ *NASB‬‬

Thank you for responding! A little while after your post I hesitantly, bravely, and determinedly threw away my Recovery version of the Bible with footnotes. I did keep the Recovery Version I had with no footnotes. Im just having faith that one is a good translation!! I don't want WL's footnotes mixed in though, even if I ignore it- its there. It felt right and may the Lord God have mercy and grace on me if it was an offense. I just don't feel it could be at this point.

Thanks for saying that, it definitely gave me the "push" I needed.

Out of curiosity, would you be interested in explaining what things were "embedded" into you? I'm starting to see things and behaviors of mine (even just in life) that I think were at least introduced or encouraged in the LC. I also think there are similarities with everyone but women will probably have another set of issues, possibly equal in number- but different.

For example (and again, the LC is just PART of the piece of the puzzle that influenced my personality- I do realize that), when your life path is "laid out" for you like it was growing up in the LC in 80's and 90's- for myself, it encouraged a lack of taking control of my own life and I was easily manipulated and influenced by people who didn't have my best interests at heart. Also, the "us vs. them" mentality created a feeling of being an outcast. Which, although was painful, it's ironically helped me in a strange way. However, the process of coming through that was pretty difficult and I'm not sure everyone could have come out stronger for it. With the culture of fear/shame (which arguably, I understand is in many churches), I feel the need to OVER-EXPLAIN myself and CONNECT (can be a good thing, only if its with the right person though!), and its almost like I need VALIDATION to make a choice for my OWN LIFE!!! Now, I understand this is a complicated issue and it's not JUST the culture of the local church and YP work that is to blame for these issues within myself. But, these issues began early on in my life and I can at least recognize that with as much time as we spent with the saints, the environment of group think and influence didn't help me with these issues. I believe they either initiated them or further deepened them. I want to be careful when I say that too because I'm truly not pointing my finger or shaking my first at anyone in particular. I'm saying all this because I want us all TO BE BETTER!!!!! LET'S ALL JUST BE BETTER!!!! I don't know for sure if the Lord's Recovery is a movement that is necessary - I don't. But I just can't believe that it's going to happen in this sort of unhealthy and twisted group think environment.

Want to be a legitimate and respected group of believers and followers of Jesus? Then don't use the same tactics that cults use. Period - end of story.

This isn't flowing well and I'm running short on time and may edit later....I just thought of another issue or mindset embedded in me was the idea that something must be wrong with me if I didn't see or understand the infallible and undisputed teachings of the Living Stream Ministry books. Not just the Bible, the LSM uncovered truths in the Bible. It was VERY clear to me that to even leave the Recovery and be a missionary in Africa would be a LOW way of life- if that missionary was associated with a denomination.

Obviously, I'm talking about my family and my experience in one locality of the local church's in the 80's and 90's. Everyone's family and experience is different but I've also seen so many similarities. That's why I was hoping you could share a little of some of the ways you've "de-programmed" from this mindset. I feel like we might all have similar things to deal with regarding it!
12-25-2017 11:48 PM
Intothewind
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya,

Thanks so much for sharing and being brazen in questioning. It is upsetting to see major questions go unanswered.

You raise great points of talking to family. All ny immediate nuclear family are still very strong for the recovery indeed. So far as there belief system is concerned I'm damned but perhaps they are unaware of how far around my world view has flipped. I'm sure they pray for me, and I do still feel guilty.

I've had about the same level of success talking with my family as you have...and am out of ideas at this point.
12-24-2017 01:10 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Drake is a wordsmith and only stated that every place he lived used Xerox copies. Never said Xerox copies of what. He is always factual, but may not be truthful. He is a window into the soul of LSM.
If the church owns a copy machine then it stands to reason they use copies. Doesn't mean they would make copies of LSM materials to distribute to the saints. Good catch.
12-24-2017 10:56 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renee View Post
None of the 6 churches with which I am familiar use xerox copies of their Morning Revival. Xerox copies are used in the trainings one pays to attend.
Drake is a wordsmith and only stated that every place he lived used Xerox copies. Never said Xerox copies of what. He is always factual, but may not be truthful. He is a window into the soul of LSM.
12-24-2017 10:20 AM
Betsy
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake
None of the 6 churches with which I am familiar use xerox copies of their Morning Revival. Xerox copies are used in the trainings one pays to attend.
12-23-2017 11:28 AM
LifeGoesOn
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
My thoughts are to make sure you complete the process yourself first. And, keep in mind that Jesus himself is the truth (John 14:6), and continuing in His word is what causes you to know the truth, and it is the truth that sets you free (John 8:31-32). He and His words are what free you, and others as well. Stay anchored there.
In all love I say YES, make sure to start this process first. This may take time, but it’s crucial. I am still seeing things that are deeply embedded into my being from decades of LSM programming.

I threw ALL of the LSM materials I had in my house in the trash, including the Recovery Version of the Bible. There may actually be more words by WL in the RV version than those of God Himself! My “understanding” of the Scriptures was based entirely on WL and the LSM. That was my fault for not being a Berean. I believe this is the case for many in TLR.

Seek Him and ask the Holy Spirit to empty you of EVERYTHING that is NOT of God (teachings, culture, behavior, vocabulary, etc.). Ask Him to guide you as you read the Word.

He is faithful and will do it!

“Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.”

**1 Thessalonians‬ *5:24‬ *NASB‬‬
12-22-2017 02:37 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueOrchid View Post
Kumbaya, wow. You say Lee was a genius, but wow so are you!! You are gifted with eloquence and wisdom. I have an interest in psychology and I have enjoyed reading your posts. Your post about the book cases, I just read, and I had made a comment on my thread about this same thing! You are so right about the LSM bookshelves being on display, so pot kettle black about Christmas trees.
I am celebrating Christmas this year for the first time with the least amount of guilt!! Wrong or not, Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.

I would love to see the correlation between the 19 out of 26 or so mind control tactics that the FTT uses on people. Maybe you could message it to me?

Also you are right on about the boundaries, having to re learn everything, being an HSP (which I am as well) and makes total sense 1/4 of the shock that the shape of the earth might be different! lol. It's a huge blow. It's been a couple of years since I started digging and I am still dealing with the shock.
Could you elaborate more on your perspective of hospitality in the LCM?
It's been lovely reading your thoughts.

God bless you!

~Blue Orchid
Thank you for saying all that! I don't think and don't want the pressure of being a "genius" and I'm definitely not (I've taken some tests, haha!).

I can say I do have an ability to see things from multiple perspectives sometimes and I can pick up on unspoken communication including pressure and pick out manipulation. I think a lot of people can do it, you have to also not care very much about what people think about you to ever make a difference with that gift though! Although, I do think of it as a curse sometimes bc its easy to get overstimulated.

When I found out about all this in the church, I cried almost every day. I was miserable. I was also dealing with some other issues in my past but the combination of it all was a lot to handle.

However, I'm glad I went through it because I HAD NO CHOICE but to try to confront my "weirdness" that I've felt during my life and I learned that I was I highly sensitive person.

CAAAAAAAA-LIIIIIICCCCCKKKKKK!!!!! hahaha

It ALL made sense and yay for you finding out you are too! It's so validating isn't it, to know that you're not crazy for feeling and sensing things the way you do when it seems others aren't. I was always told I was too sensitive and too emotional. I like change but I take my own sweet time adjusting my environments and care VERY much about the ones close to me and anyone/anything that might cause them harm. Does that make sense to you, too? I think I had to learn a lot about psychology to learn why my counselor called me a "narcissist magnet" (rude! lol). But he was right, I was. I almost don't like to use the word empath except in the way its described by psychology bc it's used in other circles as a description for someone who opens themselves up to other things besides Christ. Maybe I'm a Christian empath then- if that's possible, ha!

I'm not meaning to go on about myself, I'm sorry! I feel like you might feel the same way though and I think its important to know when you hear people talking about things like that- that we've thought we were crazy and had bad self esteem our whole lives. So give us 5 min to recognize that we have something to offer, ok??? hehehe.....

Ok, back to being serious though- I love to hear and give advice (to help, not control) but I think its important to have your OWN journey and not fall into another trap of group think. I'm really trying to heal and better myself emotionally, become stronger, set better boundaries....And maybe I'm "indoctrinated" with the idea of the body, soul, spirit model from WL- but I feel like I need to heal my body and soul right now and then I'll be better prepared to equip myself for the spiritual stuff. Spiritual experiences are necessary and I may be overly cautious but I just can't handle being in a group of believers right now. Maybe that's a lie from the enemy but I have to take baby steps. We're all different but remember to consider whether or not you're ready to "rejoin" a Christian group and I would go as far to advise that you read about the tactics of spiritual abuse before you do. When you're in the group, you do it without knowing. I've even done it. It's all part of the group think structure. I just don't want to ever be involved with that again, you know?

I'm really happy for you that you're doing what YOU want to do and living YOUR life. You should do exactly that! Celebrate Christmas, do all the (granted, GOOD) and healthy things that you feel to do.

I think our own individual paths get so mislead with dogma and pressure from others. I'm not sure you're personality type but I need a lot of alone time to realign myself with what I feel is right. I can easily get caught up in other peoples agendas if I'm not careful! Just watch out for that, hon!

I've wanted to go back to the things I've read and list out/describe some of them so thank you for reminding me! I haven't had the time yet to read the spiritual abuse forum and brainwashing forum so I was going to do that first...

I've found a lot of helpful things (for free) on archive.com.....it's like youtube in that its free but also has videos and ebooks/audiobooks. Then overdrive, an app that works with your public library. I'm still constantly annoyed at the utter lack of audiobooks. I have ADD, my need to multitask is borderline extreme. I can sit if I'm really interested but I would MUCH prefer an audiobook.

The two books I would recommend I CAN'T find an audiobook link so I'm sorry but they are, "Toxic Faith" and "The subtle power of spiritual abuse." They are so good. You can watch some you tube videos of the author of the 2nd book- Steven Attabery (I def misspelled his name btw!) that summarize a lot of the points. I read those on overdrive, you just "check out" an ebook.

After I read that forum on the spiritual abuse and when I have more time (hopefully tonight) I'll write out some of the practices I saw. If you just google thought reform tactics or coercive persuasion tactics though you can see for yourself what they are and I'm POSITIVE you will see some used in at least one or many practices in the church.

Yuck, just yuck.

I posted a link a day or two ago to an audio of an expert talking about thought reform. I had to listen to it 3 times to FULLY get it all. Ha! So much for being a smarty pants! He's just really informed and it's kind of like a doctor talking to another doctor in parts. He definitely is talking about high concepts and you have to pay attention. He really universalizes the idea about thought reform and how it has and could be used in the future. If you can get to minute 15 he starts to transition into how they are used in cults and starts listing at minute 20 I believe (or around then).

He doesn't go into them all but you can just look up you tube videos or articles about what healthy vs. unhealthy spiritual practices are and they're all pretty much the same. I mean, reading a psychology journal is better but at this day in age- they're just summarizing it in a 10 min video and it's pretty agreed upon information. At least for this subject, you tube videos for learning is fine You have to be careful with that though!

Oh, hospitality! I could and maybe should write a lot but I don't have time today. I'll keep it as short as I can.

Now, I do not mean to relate this to hospitality and I'm sorry for the "fear tactic" here but I think even members in the LC agree that their group CAN and DOES attract people with an "odd" personality. Kind of like, "Hey, you're weird and no one likes you? Even if it's for a great reason, we'll love you! Do this and you're my brother now!" Now, I'm a huge champion for the underdog and being as weird as you want, but the church DID have some pedophiles in it (ugh, probably still does- they are in lots of churches). Unfortunately, the mindset when finding out about past offenses was, "You're forgiven by God and taken the blood." I don't know details but I know there were some predators in the past that were found out. This happens with all groups though, I may be critical of the alleged response to it but this kind of thing does happen in churches.

That being said, the practice of hosting strangers in your home with your family is something that I'm GLAD to see happen less often in the church in recent years. We used to have/be a guest in hospitality as a regular practice growing up. I DO ADMIT that many times, the hospitality was to people they knew or knew of and their was some trust there but I know that wasn't always the case. I just don't think it's wise if you don't know them well and I have a bigger problem with WHY I believe WL taught this practice. It's just one aspect he taught of cultivating different practices into a system that doesn't have personal boundaries.

What's one of the first things you learn as a kid?? STRANGER DANGER!!

Why does this not apply?? Until we can actually read someones mind to know whether or not their intentions are pure- you shouldn't have strangers in your home, especially with your children.

Aside from it just being careless, it just further pushed the "corporate" agenda AKA "group think" agenda. It decreases individuality and self examination/self critical thinking and pushes behavioral "STANDARDS" of how to live.

Think about it, you really have to take WL's advice on how to live your life if you have other people coming into your home and seeing how you live....Better get rid of that TV, better not hang out with people outside the LC, get the point?

Now, I think it can definitely be used in a normal way. It's the fact that WL teaches it as a practice that I have a problem with. That sort of thing should happen naturally. Its just another pressure and standard to live up to with the practice of doing it. It also encourages people to travel to other cities outside their locality for conferences. ALWAYS FOLLOW THE MONEY (*tear- hate this is true*) How much LESS money would LSM make if hospitality wasn't a practice and saints had to pay for hotel rooms. Granted, some did. But the ones who could just afford the "fee" can NOW go too! So, more ticket sales and everyone gets to "peek in" on everyone's life and how they live. Uh-oh, that's where the panic sets in. Better clean up your religious practices while the hospitality is there!! Obviously, I'm being extreme but its manages to enforce group think/control while also providing the comfort of being in a group (we all desire that psychologically- can be used to manipulate/control) and best of all - LSM makes more money!!!

Of COURSE hospitality is going to be a practice taught by WL. Just another manipulative one, I'm not afraid to call it like I see it- sorry! lol

I know I was rambling and don't have time to edit but Im looking forward to talking more soon!
12-22-2017 06:53 AM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
How do people "de-program" though?? Can you help them? Should you?
My thoughts are to make sure you complete the process yourself first. And, keep in mind that Jesus himself is the truth (John 14:6), and continuing in His word is what causes you to know the truth, and it is the truth that sets you free (John 8:31-32). He and His words are what free you, and others as well. Stay anchored there.
12-21-2017 11:31 PM
BlueOrchid
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya, wow. You say Lee was a genius, but wow so are you!! You are gifted with eloquence and wisdom. I have an interest in psychology and I have enjoyed reading your posts. Your post about the book cases, I just read, and I had made a comment on my thread about this same thing! You are so right about the LSM bookshelves being on display, so pot kettle black about Christmas trees.
I am celebrating Christmas this year for the first time with the least amount of guilt!! Wrong or not, Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.

I would love to see the correlation between the 19 out of 26 or so mind control tactics that the FTT uses on people. Maybe you could message it to me?

Also you are right on about the boundaries, having to re learn everything, being an HSP (which I am as well) and makes total sense 1/4 of the shock that the shape of the earth might be different! lol. It's a huge blow. It's been a couple of years since I started digging and I am still dealing with the shock.
Could you elaborate more on your perspective of hospitality in the LCM?
It's been lovely reading your thoughts.

God bless you!

~Blue Orchid
12-21-2017 11:11 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueOrchid View Post
Wow I can vouch for this post. Spiritual abuse is a thing!!
I think a lot of churches are like this. Maybe that's why they keep looking for fresh stock.

~Blue Orchid
Is is- how did you experience it?

Mine was a lot of the guilt/shame methods and something called disinhibition but all these tactics work together! Just recently I have finally feel (in 30’s) that I’m taking control of my own life!!
12-21-2017 11:09 PM
kumbaya
Re: No hint of Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueOrchid View Post
YES So true!!
They want the good stock. The ones hungry to fit in. Not the ones who are beginning to see what is going on. Or have known for a long time and now have the courage to speak. It's like they think that if they give people the boot, that fear will be enough to put them back into submission. All about the power play. But that doesn't work. Because their behaviour in their position doesn't speak of God's love. It's just the spirit of manipulation, control. Jezebel.
~Blue Orchid
The thing is, whether you agree that’s the spirit or now (I do), the percentage of YP who stay isn’t good. It bothers me a little that those YP are ignored and they try so hard for “fresh meat” with college kids. To be fair, I know of several situations where some of the saints are in contact with former YP who don’t attend but it’s on a personal level. The pressure of Christians of campus (red flag- not using church’s name) to get kids seems more important.

Whether or not you even agree they’re doing the Lord’s work, I think the pressure they’re putting on people for the “Lord’s move” in Europe isn’t right. I know of several full timers wives that I know regret choices they’ve made! It’s so sad to see them try to make the best of their choices! I just don’t think it’s right to put that pressure on young kids like that- very upsetting to me...

Have you seen that kind of pressure too? I’m hoping not and maybe I just know more than I should about their situations or what I know is off but I have heard some regrets- no doubt.
12-21-2017 10:53 PM
BlueOrchid
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Indirectally, I have. I personally have suffered spiritual abuse (unintentional from those giving it) because of the practices preached by Living Stream Ministry. I didn't even realize before counseling years ago that spiritual abuse was a thing. I didn't even fully consider it because I was dealing with the effects of an abusive marriage. As I dug deeper, I realized how most of my issues stemmed (typically!) from my childhood and relationship with my dad. Now, I don't want to play the blame game and put all that on LSM, of course that's ridiculous.

But, the practices of showing your spirituality in a public manner as a child/young person have been researched and the things in children's meeting's and truth school's that were practiced back then (although somewhat different now), were considered the best way back then. I've listened to audio tapes online over young peoples work and am familiar with the mindset then. I was completely controlled (well, as best as they could!) until a mid teen and then I was given some freedom to make my own choices.

I realize this is a silly example but it's the best one I can think of right now, My first choice my dad let me make (at 15), regarding a decision that he didn't agree with but was "loosening the reins," was whether or not I would go to the movie theatre with some friends. I was definitely never allowed to do that and the one time I snuck it and got caught - I was grounded for 2 months! I probably would have gotten away with it though if Titanic wasn't 3 hrs long, ha! Sorry, tangent - but the first decision I made on my own to do something "worldly", I was 15 and it was to go see Jurassic Park 2 with my cousin. All this seems silly but I say it to prove a point. By the time I was 18 I COULDN'T WAIT to get out of that house and make my own decisions that were EXACTLY the opposite of everything shoved down my throat my whole life. Unfortunately, I thought I knew everything and didn't realize that my having all my decisions made for me my whole life and not having boundaries with people (I still think "hospitality" is a dangerous practice related to that), I attracted people who were controlling and overstepped boundaries due to not ever learning how to make my own decisions and have limits with people. It's taken me YEARS to (hopefully) stop the cycle and recognize it. I know the locality I grew up in has almost NO former church kids attending. I can think of less than 10, maybe casually 15 to 20 tops, out of probably hundreds. Of the ones who stayed, they all seem to have an obedient non-questioning personality naturally. There's definitely a problem- so, what is it? I know a lot of kids stop attending churches they grew up in and I don't have statistics to prove this but it seems like a lot of the young people from my locality have REALLY struggled emotionally and just in life. I don't know how normal it is but it seems excessive to me.

So yes, I believe the extremeness that was taught in the LSM material (not the Bible) was taken to heart by many parents and many children were damaged.

I hope that answered your question.

Wow I can vouch for this post. Spiritual abuse is a thing!!
I think a lot of churches are like this. Maybe that's why they keep looking for fresh stock.

~Blue Orchid
12-21-2017 10:51 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueOrchid View Post
Hey
Just read your opening post, Kumbaya. Wanted to say yea it's off that the church hierarchy is just like that of an MLM. a triangle.
Where in the Bible, the leaders would lift the people up so they could be closer to God. No ego. No position of lording over the people... No wonder followers of Jesus flipped the world upside down, cause it was the entire worldly modal flipped upside down!
No wonder they were known for their love!! Cause ego and money were not running the show. It was truly different.

Jesus is not of this world, and the way following Jesus works is not the way of the world, either.

By the way love love love your analogy of the dirty kitchen!!
I read that a few days ago and got a good chuckle.
That whole messy kitchen/spit out the bone and eat the meat analogy has been said so many times!!

But we don't want to eat food prepared in a kitchen with cockroaches and flies. And for the chicken, free range organic and local, not poopy sickly, gmo factory farm chicken, please. haha. :P

~Blue Orchid
Yes! I’m actually GLAD that sister told me that bc I would have NEVER considered that without her trying to “help me.” I know she thought she was and I really like her a lot but at the end of the day-there’s a reason why there are health inspectors for restaurants and apologetics and teachings on best practices to lead others spiritually. I really believe you have to get the practices to a good place if you want good “food.” your post is so encouraging and full of life- I needed it, thank you! I was feeling a little down earlier but Jesus is Lord and I agree with your post on saying His name more. You’re right, I don’t know if it’s just the culture or what but we all need to say Jesus more!!)
12-21-2017 10:27 PM
BlueOrchid
Re: No hint of Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Thank you, I'm going to read some of the letters. I've read John Ingalls..

I really do blame the culture. Love love love until theres a disagreement and then shame, curse, and kick out.

I still have trouble putting the two behaviors together.

YES So true!!
They want the good stock. The ones hungry to fit in. Not the ones who are beginning to see what is going on. Or have known for a long time and now have the courage to speak. It's like they think that if they give people the boot, that fear will be enough to put them back into submission. All about the power play. But that doesn't work. Because their behaviour in their position doesn't speak of God's love. It's just the spirit of manipulation, control. Jezebel.

~Blue Orchid
12-21-2017 10:07 PM
BlueOrchid
Re: First Post kumbaya

Hey
Just read your opening post, Kumbaya. Wanted to say yea it's off that the church hierarchy is just like that of an MLM. a triangle.
Where in the Bible, the leaders would lift the people up so they could be closer to God. No ego. No position of lording over the people... No wonder followers of Jesus flipped the world upside down, cause it was the entire worldly modal flipped upside down!
No wonder they were known for their love!! Cause ego and money were not running the show. It was truly different.

Jesus is not of this world, and the way following Jesus works is not the way of the world, either.

By the way love love love your analogy of the dirty kitchen!!
I read that a few days ago and got a good chuckle.
That whole messy kitchen/spit out the bone and eat the meat analogy has been said so many times!!

But we don't want to eat food prepared in a kitchen with cockroaches and flies. And for the chicken, free range organic and local, not poopy sickly, gmo factory farm chicken, please. haha. :P

~Blue Orchid
12-21-2017 09:09 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn View Post
Haha!!! If only I were that excited about it Right now I'm boohooing saying that but someday I'll get there- someday soon hopefully!!!
12-21-2017 08:24 PM
LifeGoesOn
Re: First Post kumbaya








Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
This is right up my alley! Thank you, I will definitely read it. I talked to my family today a little about this whole thing. I know I need to read more first on how to do that but I'm...
12-21-2017 07:09 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
We have had lots of discussion on this Spiritual Abuse Titles sub-forum.

The poster named aron has provided much information about western vs. oriental thought, the former stressing individuality liberties, and the latter stressing the collective group think. Witness Lee modeled much of LSM and its control over the LC's on Chinese culture. His first decade in the US was much more conducive to individual liberty of the Spirit. In Jan. 1974 things began to change for the worse.

For example, what I call the ministry of "early-Lee" stressed walking by the Spirit and building up autonomous local churches. Most of today's older leaders joined the movement during those early days. "Later-Lee," however. stressed the "body-life" and being "one with the ministry." Lee would use every crisis in the Recovery to expedite his takeover of the LC's. Sometimes he would even manufacture a crisis when needed, but convince the members it was all the Lord's doing.

Here is one thread started by aron on Brainwashing
This is right up my alley! Thank you, I will definitely read it. I talked to my family today a little about this whole thing. I know I need to read more first on how to do that but I'm trusting that our relationship is strong enough to just be honest and respectful. I mentioned that I saw practices that I didn't think were healthy and why. I mentioned how I thought there were negative effects of those and said I'd be happy to go into what those practices were if they wanted to know. The thing is, unless you're an expert in thought reform tactics and ALSO have transitioned out of a thought reform group- I don't think you can begin to understand how hard it will be. I've read that most of the time, when you're in a group that uses thought reform tactics, the thing that is most likely to get you out of it is a negative personal experience within the group that causes you to see the unhealthy behaviors....

I'm just going to have to be really careful bc I just got my feelings hurt a "teeny" bit and saw how bad things would be if more hurt feelings happened on either side. I was about to explain a thought I had about LSM and I got laughed at. I realize this is silly but the person who did it would never normally do that. I realized its just a defense mechanism and I understand. We all have defenses but it made me realize that they weren't going to hear me.

Yesterday I had a realization about this whole issue of being in thought reform for so long...

I saw a closed group on Facebook the other day called "Flat Earthists." It stated it wasn't there to discuss the legitimacy of the earth being flat instead of round, but you had to be a "flatty" (WOW! LOL) to join. I thought it was a joke but then yesterday while driving, I saw a car with a sticker in the windshield that said "the earth is flat." I looked it up and I couldn't believe it- there are a growing number of people who believe this!! I was just shocked and started to laugh to myself, amazed at the idea that people could be such idiots!

Then, I realized- I actually don't KNOW the earth isn't flat. I mean, I haven't traveled from one point of the world, in a circle, to end up in the same place. I BELIEVE that I live in a world where a lie that HUGE could not be propagated to the masses and sold as a fact. I don't believe that kind of manipulation could occur in modern society.

However, I do not know this to be a FACT- I accept and believe the evidence I've seen showing the earth is round.. I trust what society has told me.

Granted, what members in the local church believe is definitely not as widely accepted as the assumption that the earth is in fact, round. And the fact that the earth is round isn't something I think about every day or hang my present and eternal existence on. But, for the sake of trying to explain the complicated and difficult process of coming out of a thought reform environment....What if the earth was ACTUALLY FLAT and we have all been deceived??? It would be an earth shattering (haha!!!) event in our lives!! We would probably want ALL the evidence and EVERYTHING EXPOSED in order to confirm that we had, in fact, been deceived. We would have to figure out how to accept this new truth and move on with our lives. There would probably still be many that wouldn't accept this new information and continue to think the earth was round. The idea that they could have possibly been deceived is unimaginable and they couldn't function in a flat earth, only a round one.

Take a fourth of the shock you'd feel (I admit- I'm stretching it here, ha!!) if you found out the earth was flat and that's how I've been feeling the last few months. It has changed everything for me. Actually, as hard as it is- I can already see that it's helping me become more independent and accountable to myself. I know this is going to be a hard but positive journey (at least I have faith that it will be).

My point is, THE EFFECTS OF THOUGHT REFORM ARE REAL. It is HARD to go on when you were RAISED AS A CHILD to believe in a certain belief system and (bc of thought reform tactics) associate your identity with it.

The idea that my family was KNOWINGLY DECEIVED into believing someone else's "version" of Christianity is hard to accept and move forward from. I think for a lot of kids that grew up in it and have family there- it's like replacing the phrase, "Yes, the earth exists but its flat." with the phrase, "Yes, Jesus and the body of Christ exists, but the Lord's Recovery has it all wrong (btw, it may be a cult)."

"P.S. Have fun accepting your new reality that most of your family may consider you poisonous one day for believing all this!!"

I'll tell you- It's not a great feeling to have.

I'm just realizing what a difficult process it was for me to see that all the damaging things and hurtful things were the "fruit" of unhealthy and manipulative practices. I'm also just realizing what a journey this will still be of self-discovery and personal growth (hopefully). I am admittedly guarded with discussing spiritual things with people who might want to advise me but I feel at peace believing that I'm healing right now and that Jesus and I are just taking this thing slow, day by day. He knows my heart, He knows I want truth and Him. I know I'm damaged emotionally (mainly due to my failed marriage) and that has made me pretty guarded with most people. Combining that with learning about what unhealthy church practices were, reading about things in the LC in the past, and recognizing what I believe are thought reform tactics in the LC- it's just all been very overwhelming and emotionally painful.

I think it's important to remember, in regards to talking with my family/friends, that I came to this realization after I separated myself from it and actively searched for the truth because I was brave enough to want to know. I DIDN'T and still don't want to believe it but I want truth and as of now, this is what I'm seeing to be real.

I'm still going to read more on how to talk to family and I am so incredibly grateful for the support here and the links to help advise/inform. They have either been in the LC all their lives or the majority of it and aren't able to see the red flags. Ironically, a huge red flag to me that LSM is exploiting them is just their bookshelves! In one of my family members home, there are 3 BIG built-in bookshelves with all the Life Studies on display. One of the 3 is FULL of LSM material in the bottom cabinets and there's another stand alone bookshelf with 4 rows (at least) of more LSM material. I'm all about reading but I'm pretty sure I haven't seen any books NOT published by LSM on those shelves. Possibly a few, but I would be VERY surprised if there were even 10 (and I'm feeling generous in saying that). Granted, my family has been in the church for decades now but this is almost the norm if you've been in that long. Of course, this doesn't include tithes (which I agree to giving to churches that keep their finances open to members and still not clear on what's used for their locality, what's LSM, and what's used for their legal battles but that's another post!) and it doesn't include what they've spent on training expenses (they usually go twice a year, at least once). Now, I'm not saying it's wrong to have just one Christian author's writings on bookshelves on display, but I am DEFINITELY saying I believe it's unbalanced no matter what you believe about the material. I'm not kidding, the Life Studies and books probably total over 500, give or take a hundred. I can't even begin to think about what that collection may have cost! I think that by itself is (most likely) a sign that you are elevating these writings to a level they shouldn't be at. I don't have the heart to say this to my family but given the season of Christmas and agreed upon feeling among saints in the LC that Christmas trees are "idols" - I can't help but thinking it's the "pot calling the kettle black." Of course, I have no accusations towards them about it. Anyone who is subject to manipulation and exploitation in a church will show the effects of it. It's very normal for the saints to display LSM material in their homes and group think tactics are used on them- so, what else would you expect??

I know we have to take what we hear with a grain of salt but where there's smoke, there's fire. Ironically, my dad used to always say that! I've seen the same thing repeated enough to suspect some truth to events that are alleged. I have also listened to recordings and personally seen the practices while in the church that I believe to be wrong. I've read SO much on what healthy spiritual guidance/teachings should look like (not even mentioning WL or the LC) bc I had to prove to myself that I believed I was doing the right thing by taking a stand against the manipulative practices of thought reform used and exploitation of Christians by the LSM. All you have to do is educate yourself on these things. It sounds so much easier when you say it like that!!! If only....

Thank you guys for the support and Ohio, I'm going to check those links out. Thanks so much!
12-20-2017 01:01 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

We have had lots of discussion on this Spiritual Abuse Titles sub-forum.

The poster named aron has provided much information about western vs. oriental thought, the former stressing individuality liberties, and the latter stressing the collective group think. Witness Lee modeled much of LSM and its control over the LC's on Chinese culture. His first decade in the US was much more conducive to individual liberty of the Spirit. In Jan. 1974 things began to change for the worse.

For example, what I call the ministry of "early-Lee" stressed walking by the Spirit and building up autonomous local churches. Most of today's older leaders joined the movement during those early days. "Later-Lee," however. stressed the "body-life" and being "one with the ministry." Lee would use every crisis in the Recovery to expedite his takeover of the LC's. Sometimes he would even manufacture a crisis when needed, but convince the members it was all the Lord's doing.

Here is one thread started by aron on Brainwashing
12-20-2017 11:25 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

To anyone who's interested in reading this- I thought it cleared up some questions I had about WL's mindset.

I'm kind of a psychology junkie so I find this fascinating whether related to the LC or not.

I've read a little bit about thought reform tactics and coercive persuasion tactics, Totalism, and other tactics used to create control and exploit.

From what I understand, "thought reform" as we know it now originated in China (or was used then) in the 40's and 50's by the communist government. There's all kinds of tactics from mild to extreme. It really bothered me to have to recognize that I see these implemented by WL and practiced. Whether or not you agree on the morality of using these methods- they were and are used. When I have more time I can go back and point out just the ones I saw. I'm sure most former members could look up Chinese thought reform and recognize it themselves as well.

So, the point is - they were/are used. I can't convince anyone on the morality of that and we have to decide that for ourselves. Maybe WL truly believed he was doing it for the "greater good" and that the saints would all be better off if he used the same methods used by the Chinese communist government on Christians. Maybe, maybe not.

There's little doubt, in my opinion, that this was not a well-thought out plan and strategy used by WL. His writings/teachings/arguments are full of totalism and the thought reform/coersive persuasion techniques. It's there- you can decided for yourself if it's wrong or not but it's at least mixing preaching the gospel with a method meant to manipulate and exploit. I do not doubt that WL was a very smart man, probably a genius.

For a few months, I've been trying to point these things out my family and friends in the church. Some are as shocked as me but others won't hear it. I've been realizing how hard it is for them to just "hear" another point of view because of these tactics used on them. I admit, I didn't want to hear anything negative about the church in the past. The fear of being "poisoned" is real! Also, because they associate their relationship with the Lord to the LC due to these tactics, it's an inevitable strong hold to block out reason and not listen to it. These tactics create a situation where their very existence and spirituality is threatened by the possibility that the Lord's Recovery isn't real and the local church has or always was a cult. I realized that they are very damaged by these methods. I'd be lying to myself if I said that I wasn't too. Most experts agree that these techniques are psychologically damaging. The biggest one I see that prevents them from seeing through it is disinhibition. This is where you reduce someone to a child-like state where they are unable to think critically or make decisions for themselves. I believe it's evil, but- how could WL use it and it not be? I feel like if I could just explain to my family these tactics then maybe they could see. I know it's not my job to do anything and I should just pray but I'm having a hard time accepting that it's all I can do.

I read a study on thought reform in China by Robert Lifton and came across a video of a speech he gave on a topic related to it. It's over the thought reform methods used in cults/governments in past/present and the effects they could have on our future and implications of that. I feel like knowledge is power (mental strength) and I don't even need to read anything attacking the LC. All I have to do is read and educate myself on what healthy/unhealthy practices are and I can just look at the LC and say, "Yep, that's wrong and it's damaging people."

The clip is REALLY good and I need to listen to it again. His audience is obviously an academic crowd so he doesn't always speak in layman's terms.

I felt like I recognized many of the techniques he talks about in the LC and wanted to share.

I know we all have our input to bring to the table and I'm less informed on theology and more prone to recognize the psychology/social aspects of a situation. By no means am I an expert though- I just like reading what the experts say and talking about it

Not ALL of this video relates to what I see in the LC but you'll be able to pick out for yourself.

I still want to learn about how to possibly bring this up to my family. I was thinking that if they could just educate themselves on these tactics and be able to spot them... that might help separate their relationship with the Lord from the LC. We really have all been programmed by WL.... I can't imagine being 40 plus years in the LC and realizing this.... at what point is it not worth the pain?
I definitely have more of a burden for the younger generation, just bc they have their whole lives ahead of them. But everyone needs to know.

How do people "de-program" though?? Can you help them? Should you?

Here's the link.....

https://archive.org/details/RobertJa...yTotalismCults
12-20-2017 10:39 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

He is, Amen
12-20-2017 07:51 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I will read, thank you... Yes, I can't think of anything I've read in the Bible that would justify being one with a ministry other than the one of Jesus Christ. I can read about his ministry in the Bible. I love Jesus, I do. Thank you Lord for being pure.
I love that comment. I so often hear "how great Thou art," that it's easy to miss the deeper things of Christ. You reminded me of a few verses in I John 3:
See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and we really are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, we are now children of God, and it has not yet appeared what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
12-20-2017 06:18 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

I’m searching for some books (preferably audiobooks) on how to talk to family about this sort of thing. Any one have any recommendations?
12-19-2017 09:01 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Think about this objectively for just a minute.

Why in the world should it ever be demanded of us that we be one with some ministry?
  • There is absolutely no justification in scripture.
  • It is absolutely contrary to the construct of "local" churches.
Actually, this was the same tactic the Judaizers used -- forcing all the Gentile churches to be "one with the ministry" in Jerusalem, and bringing all the Gentile churches under their legalistic subjection. The reason why churches should be "local" is so that heresy and corruption remains limited in scope. Once headquarters becomes corrupt, that same disease then can spread to all the churches. History shows this has happened with every denomination to some degree. And ... yes ... the "Recovery" is a denomination. Denominations do not become "denominations" because they have the right or wrong name, rather they become denominations once they are brought under the subjection of a ruling headquarters, with a self-serving agenda.

Read and reread the 7 epistles to the churches in Asia in Revelation chapters 2-3. Their individual spiritual conditions span the gamut of church history, both time and space. Where does the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man walking in their midst, instruct any of them to be "one with the ministry" of John or any other Apostle?

I will read, thank you... Yes, I can't think of anything I've read in the Bible that would justify being one with a ministry other than the one of Jesus Christ. I can read about his ministry in the Bible. I love Jesus, I do. Thank you Lord for being pure.
12-19-2017 08:58 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
As in made to read them and pretend to like them, regardless of whether they like them or not.
Oh yes, they were definitely the "gold standard" of books. I didn't even consider questioning back then although it wasn't something I wanted to read.
12-19-2017 08:52 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Is your daughter still a part of the Churches of Witness Lee? Like someone else said, "Pitch the shirt and find some healthy, fruitful youth ministry for your daughter."

A member of this forum has shared that he actually moved to a city that didn't have a Witness Lee church just to get away (he admitted it was silly, but he felt it necessary at the time). Getting your daughter out of that environment will be crucial for her walk with Christ. As you know, Witness Lee isn't who he claimed to be... nor who the blendeds claim him to be today. Their church is not what Witness Lee claimed it to be, nor what the blendeds claim it to be today... and what are the implications?
I agree with you but the problem for me is that I KNOW my family and friends do NOT believe this and its just so hard to accept.

No, I don't let her go anymore and I wasn't even going then. I had issues but I thought it was harmless for her (at first) so I let her go with family members. Thanks for the support- really. I feel like reading the things I read today from this obviously false and evil ministry re-shocked me in some sort of way,

I realized today that the reason some of these things that WL says wouldn't go over well with even local church members today- is that is was so based on the culture. I think control methods will and are used to the most extreme methods that they're still effective and back then, WL could say these things and get away with it. Even when it really was never something the Bible said!!

the Bible doesn't change with culture. Everything written by WL demands a higher standard than the Bible - a standard that is honestly just unattainable and confusing.

A quote I read today says, "If someone comes to us to say something negative about the church, about the elders, about the ministry, about the brothers, or about the sister, we have to realize that this person is a wrong person. We should stay away from such persons. Otherwise, we will be contaminated."

Well, in just a few sentences he's shown that there is no accountability in the local church and when someone could possibly see abuse and report it - they'll be dismissed as someone contaminating the group.

This isn't Christian....

Before this he talks about "rejecting our opinions".

No, you should have all the opinions you want. It's how you ACT of them and how you TREAT people that matters. To reduce someone to not be able to have opinions isn't right... Its a control tactic called disinhibition (look it up).

In his book, THE OVERCOMERS, he basically attacked all Christians besides the one in the local church and creates pressure to conform to an extremely strict and unrealistic lifestyle and ideology to become an overcomer.

I wasn't kidding in my previous post, I believe someone could easily become insane if they really asked the Lord whether or not they were giving Him the "preimmenense in their life" by combing their hair, looking at the newspaper, deciding to go to a department store....or getting a "worldly" haircut. I'm not sure what hair salons offer "un-wordly" haircuts but I guess all the saints go there! lol.... The quote actually said that if a sister had a worldly hairstyle then she wasn't giving Christ the preimmenense in her life. He gave the example of not being able to buy certain styles of neck ties bc that would be wrong too.

The examples were almost funny - except that what he's doing is creating a situation where no one can do anything without guilt.

I don't care what he has right, there's too much wrong.

I read a list of 26 mind control techniques today as well and the full time training used at least 17, arguably 19 of them.

Want to be a legitimate and respected Christian group? Stop using mind control techniques....
12-19-2017 05:14 PM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I should probably get rid of that shirt, lol.
Is your daughter still a part of the Churches of Witness Lee? Like someone else said, "Pitch the shirt and find some healthy, fruitful youth ministry for your daughter."

A member of this forum has shared that he actually moved to a city that didn't have a Witness Lee church just to get away (he admitted it was silly, but he felt it necessary at the time). Getting your daughter out of that environment will be crucial for her walk with Christ. As you know, Witness Lee isn't who he claimed to be... nor who the blendeds claim him to be today. Their church is not what Witness Lee claimed it to be, nor what the blendeds claim it to be today... and what are the implications?
12-19-2017 03:52 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Hmmmm, the duck hears something.....he stirs

12-19-2017 10:07 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
That's actually destructive to their faith. I've seen it before.

Back in '87 we sent two young sisters to LSM's special summer training in Taipei and Irving. Supposedly life changing and age-turning for the gospel. In Irving their trainers stirred them up to confront all the elders to be re-baptized with them. How does that help them to respect authority? When they returned, they were filled with crazy concepts that they would multiply ten-fold, hundred-fold, thousand-fold with new ones. Unbelievable.

It was the Enemy's oldest trick in the book -- puff you up with elitest pride and then let you crash on the first day of class. Nearly all the young people were lost. LSM refused to even release statistics on how many were ruined by their nonsense. Our sisters basically vanished. LSM can only hype people up in public, yet have not a clue what long term damage it does to their young faith. Yet I'm sure exciting video was watched by W. Lee from the meetings.

Pitch the shirt and find some healthy, fruitful youth ministry for your daughter.


Thanks! Yeah, I realized I sounded really cynical last night and I apologize bc my issues are 100% with the blended brothers, LSM, and the system. I truly believe the people in the local church are being exploited and manipulated. I have zero issues with them because I know that in most cases, spiritual abuse is just in a culture. But cultures are created.

I've read some things in the ministry today that have really bothered me. I don't have time to post now but might list later. I've listened and read too much material on what are healthy and unhealthy practices, what healthy boundaries are, what mind control tactics exist to EVER be able to think that the culture of the local church is a healthy environment for a Christian.

I'll try to come back tonight and post again....

I keep thinking that I'm out of the shock phase but then I read something from WL that's so unbelievably extreme and offensive and I'm back there.

I really think, at this point....if I asked half of more of the people in my locality whether or not they believed some of this- that they would say they don't.

I feel like I have a pretty good gauge on this too. The local church has changed a lot and what I'm seeing now is a HUGE gap in what's in the ministry and how some saints live. It's much more "normal" now, but they still are in an environment that is suppressive to individuality and critical thinking. There are still a TON of unhealthy behaviors and mindsets.....but I do think they aren't as EXTREME as WL had intended them to be!

At what point are they going to have to stop selling some of WL's books and just sell the ones from the blended brothers?

Bc, I can tell you that just bc a local church has the numbers, does not mean they believe all of it.

The sad thing is, they could never ever oppose it. So they just ignore it as an old book.

Interesting situation.

I know for a fact that a LOT of the people in my old locality wouldn't agree to some of what I read today. And if they said they did then they'd be a hypocrite bc I know them and how they live/decisions they've made. I'm not saying they're bad decisions/mindsets at all- they're not! But according to WL, they would not be "giving Christ pre-immenense." I thought it was interesting with some of the examples he used. He can't really say that any of these examples are sins, because they are obviously not. But he has a very tricky way of encouraging people to be alienated from anything that's even just a normal way of life and labeling it as "worldly" and evil. He can't call it sin though so his examples would personally make me a crazy person if I took his advice! Everything from looking at a newspaper and combing my hair- I need to say yes to God and no to the devil. I shouldn't buy that thing on sale in the newspaper or go to the department stores, I need to say no to the devil telling me to do that.

I seriously wish I was kidding. The examples he used were so insane- I don't even remember reading things like this growing up. Maybe I just accepted it then or maybe this was an extreme case but I was just floored.

I also read his advice on taking abuse from an elder no matter what and never questioning. That makes you a martyr of course.

I'm sorry, from someone who HAS been in an abusive situation in life. I can NOT IMAGINE TELLING SOMEONE WHO IS BEING ABUSED TO STAY and that they'll be rewarded for it someday. Oh wait just a second (sarcasm), this is super convenient for you to say WL, bc people are saying how abusive the culture was and WL/Philip Lee's behavior was so it's all coming together now. It's all very convenient. He can't just come out and say "Don't question my abuse and controlling culture I'm creating." I'm going to make you blindly follow me by creating a culture of guilt and shame with expectations that you'll never be able to live up to and making you question every minute detail of your life until you blindly take everything I say as the undeniable truth..

He really was a genius.

The thing is, we know too much about psychology now to fall for it. My dad might not have and I don't blame him for it but I won't continue the cycle. Among many things, you should NEVER tell someone who is being abused emotionally or spiritually to suffer in silence. If they choose to, then that's their choice but it is just that- YOUR CHOICE AND YOUR CHOICE ONLY.

That really got me. Being abused has SERIOUS emotional and psychological damages. If our body is temple, how is that ok to let it be abused?

I'm waiting for the day when things stop shocking me.

Does that happen?
12-19-2017 07:28 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
OK, I can see how Steinem’s quote can be viewed that way, Drake. But, I also hope you can “put yourself in kumbaya’s shoes” and think about what it is like to be child growing up in TLR where “being one with The Ministry” is confused with the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is a free gift (take it or leave it).
Think about this objectively for just a minute.

Why in the world should it ever be demanded of us that we be one with some ministry?
  • There is absolutely no justification in scripture.
  • It is absolutely contrary to the construct of "local" churches.
Actually, this was the same tactic the Judaizers used -- forcing all the Gentile churches to be "one with the ministry" in Jerusalem, and bringing all the Gentile churches under their legalistic subjection. The reason why churches should be "local" is so that heresy and corruption remains limited in scope. Once headquarters becomes corrupt, that same disease then can spread to all the churches. History shows this has happened with every denomination to some degree. And ... yes ... the "Recovery" is a denomination. Denominations do not become "denominations" because they have the right or wrong name, rather they become denominations once they are brought under the subjection of a ruling headquarters, with a self-serving agenda.

Read and reread the 7 epistles to the churches in Asia in Revelation chapters 2-3. Their individual spiritual conditions span the gamut of church history, both time and space. Where does the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man walking in their midst, instruct any of them to be "one with the ministry" of John or any other Apostle?
12-19-2017 06:45 AM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Force fed as in made to read ministry books? just curious...
As in made to read them and pretend to like them, regardless of whether they like them or not.
12-19-2017 06:41 AM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
JJ>”Drake is taking issue with a word....”
JJ, No, I’m not. Read what I said.
OK, I can see how Steinem’s quote can be viewed that way, Drake. But, I also hope you can “put yourself in kumbaya’s shoes” and think about what it is like to be child growing up in TLR where “being one with The Ministry” is confused with the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is a free gift (take it or leave it).
12-19-2017 02:02 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
This is ironic to me bc I believe my daughter has a shirt from the LC with the words, "Age-Turner" on it. Yes, I need to find it and see what verses they're using (if any) on it.
That's actually destructive to their faith. I've seen it before.

Back in '87 we sent two young sisters to LSM's special summer training in Taipei and Irving. Supposedly life changing and age-turning for the gospel. In Irving their trainers stirred them up to confront all the elders to be re-baptized with them. How does that help them to respect authority? When they returned, they were filled with crazy concepts that they would multiply ten-fold, hundred-fold, thousand-fold with new ones. Unbelievable.

It was the Enemy's oldest trick in the book -- puff you up with elitest pride and then let you crash on the first day of class. Nearly all the young people were lost. LSM refused to even release statistics on how many were ruined by their nonsense. Our sisters basically vanished. LSM can only hype people up in public, yet have not a clue what long term damage it does to their young faith. Yet I'm sure exciting video was watched by W. Lee from the meetings.

Pitch the shirt and find some healthy, fruitful youth ministry for your daughter.
12-18-2017 09:13 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by least View Post
kumbaya, I know this is your thread. I like to say something in response to JJ's post.

I've been thinking the last few days: I remember I watched on the Internet, LSM teenagers camp/conference video, how the kids were told they have to be 'age turners' ... like Daniel ... etc.,
The last few days I realised that, by the time they graduated, they then will be trained to be 'under and with' THE Ministry (Minister) Of THE AGE.

THE AGE. So, what age should these teenagers be turning? Overthrow THE AGE of the LSM MOTA?

What do they do to children, teenagers, and adults?

They (LSM blended leaders) say 'for the Lord' ... who/what is theirs (the Lord)?

Its disturbing.

-

This is ironic to me bc I believe my daughter has a shirt from the LC with the words, "Age-Turner" on it. Yes, I need to find it and see what verses they're using (if any) on it.

My first thought is that it sounds very elite. Pretty typical in the LC. I mean, just a regular shirt that said, "Christian" wouldn't be good enough, of course!
My second thought (aside from your point-which I agree with), is that there's somehow I'm implication that THESE people wearing THESE shirts are the ones who will save us all, because the age needs to be turned- right? Isn't that what they're saying needs to happen for the Lord to return? So, they're sort of saying that the age-turners are the ones who WILL bring Him back. Can people in denominations be age-turners too or is this just a LC thing? Oh, wow....

I believe the Lord will return but I don't know about him needing us all to wear shirts that claim we're the ones to do this. It's so so so stinkingly elite and arrogant.

I'm fine with any shirt with a verse or something like that but to call yourself something other than a "Christian, follower of Christ, or child of God" - is putting yourself above others.

Your point about it being an new "era" is accurate though. WL is dead, they need someone new to control them. The blending brothers who are the highest of the "age-turners" perhaps?

I'm sorry, that's very cynical. I do not have great feelings towards these "blending brothers."

As far as I'm concerned, if you need a website to defend yourself as a believer against things and the 2nd topic on your homepage is quarantine- then I suspect quarantine is an overused practice. I also can't believe how they don't use just the Bible to defend their practices and even when they try- its a stretch! For those haven't seen- their website is www.afaithfulword.com

Hmmm, a faithful word to who, exactly?

It's beyond arrogant that they believe they have the power to control other Christians like they're defending! How ironic is it to "humbly" believe that you are a better believer bc you're in the Lord's Recovery?

I should probably get rid of that shirt, lol.
12-18-2017 12:51 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
And yes, all these events being hidden are so wrong. Whatever reasoning they have for "carrying the burden" is flawed. I agree this is a more extreme case but what if the Catholics who covered up molestation from priests said that they were just "carrying the burden." It wouldn't have gone over well.

We all have a right to know accurate facts and history about the group of believers you meet with.

I wonder if the decisions to cover it up would have been different with the knowledge that the internet era was ahead? hmmmm......
Excellent points. Biblical and just common sense. For example, I don't look at any Catholics differently based on what has happened with the priests. Think about it, forbidding to marry is a doctrine of demons. (I Tim 4.3) This kind of stuff probably happened for thousands of years. What amazes me is that the RCC never reads their Bible. Today God is shining His spotlight on all segments of society. What was once kept secret, not is shouted from the internet "housetops."

WL and LSM never did come clean. I lived thru the turmoil/storms of the 70's and 80's. The published reports NEVER matched the actual facts. The pulpit and the press were used to smear those men of God who sought to protect the children of God. That was their only "crime." None of them desired to stage some coup d'etat to overthrow W. Lee. But that is exactly what we were all told. Those who knew better kept silent for personal gain. Those who would not keep silent were slandered and their reputations destroyed.

The Blendeds in Anaheim really shot themselves in the foot when they quarantined (what a joke that word is!) the Great Lakes Area and Brazil. The lies and hidden corruption of the past awoke from their graves and came back to life on the internet. This forum enabled ex-members from all over the world to connect. We all had a few pieces of the puzzle to put together and then we saw what WL and the LSM really was like. How stupid they were to excommunicate whole regions. Back in the 80's, Lee lost dozens of thriving LC's in Europe and Africa in order to protect his son Philip. Who knows what arm or leg they will cut off next time!
12-18-2017 10:45 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I thought you handled the situation quite well. Perhaps you don't give yourself enough credit. Drake (and other pro-LSM posters) can be quite infuriating at times, but you seemed to display just the right amount of push back and humility. He keeps us honest, and we him, though I'm sure he will disagree.

I think having posters like him on your thread has really helped you. Look at how much more has surfaced in such a short time. This forum is a friendly discussion of ideas by members and former members of the LC's. It's helpful for you to know that you are not alone, neither was yours an isolated case. What you have learned helps others here too.

One thing we have all faced is the guilt shaming. You just recently faced a couple incidents of this concerning tithing and that Steinem quote. Instead of listening to what you were trying to say, he attempted to discredit you by zeroing in on minor things. So typical. Pass the camel and strain out the gnats.

But notice there was no response to WL's comment about "losing their virginity." That was during an elders' meeting. How irreverent was that? Compare what WL did and said during Daystar with the Apostle Paul's fellowship with the Corinthians in II Cor. 11.1-4. Not good. But these events have been hidden from nearly all the members.


Thank you for recognizing that! I thought about responding the same way but thought it would just add fuel to the fire and hoped others would see exactly what you're saying.

You do lose credibility when you ignore the issue and pinpoint minor irrelevant errors.

I agree that its good to have opposing viewpoints though, I like them! I may not like conflict but I'm all about discussing something with someone respectfully. If anything, its challenging and makes you think. It's embarrassing to admit but I didn't even know what an apologetic was until I was an adult.

How is that possible growing up in the LC?

Well, I guess WL was our head apologetic. Yikes!

I was in a marriage with someone who constantly spoke to me like that (changing the topic, not focusing on the point, nit picking every flaw instead of listening) so I agree that although it was very hard and so painful- it did prepare me for how to deal with people like that.

Obviously, I'm not perfect and I can admit that I get defensive but I truly don't want to be that way and believe thats not how we should be towards anyone- esp bro/sis in Christ. So, if I was too much I'm sorry.

I'm not surprised he didn't respond bc - there is nothing he can defend WL's remarks with. I think we both can see, given his previous posts- he would if he was able! There's proof (I thought I read) so he can't say its a lie (too many people heard or was it just recorded?). Maybe he thinks no one will pick up on the double standard of him dishing out criticism on topics he has issues with (while ignoring the main point) and not being able to flip roles and respond to criticism related to the same issue with something WL said. Sorry to beat a dead horse but I also feel like you can enable people when you let them get away with it. It's a battle I have a hard time walking away from- probably bc my marriage was so full of that kind of thing. I'm sure the excuse (the only one) would be that he was asked to leave me alone, which- I still want him to. But I'd asked him to before and he didn't. Very convenient that he's backing off now when he can't defend your questions about the same issue.

People are funny.

I'm all about opposing viewpoints and keeping each other honest, I just like logic and respect. I hope I'm showing that!

And yes, all these events being hidden are so wrong. Whatever reasoning they have for "carrying the burden" is flawed. I agree this is a more extreme case but what if the Catholics who covered up molestation from priests said that they were just "carrying the burden." It wouldn't have gone over well.

We all have a right to know accurate facts and history about the group of believers you meet with. We all should be able to make decisions for ourselves if they were mistakes that should be forgiven and decide whether or not you still have faith and trust in those people.....or, if there is a bigger problem at hand and if you should run the other direction. How can the church we learn from its mistakes and have accountability if most people don't even know about the mistakes these elders and leading ones made? I would personally have to hear or see public apologies and repentance for this behavior before I EVER even THOUGHT of trusting that person again. Even then it would be a long road ahead.

I wonder if the decisions to cover it up would have been different with the knowledge that the internet era was ahead? hmmmm......
12-18-2017 10:31 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
I was in “the Lords Recovery” (TLR) from 1978-1985, was out from 1985-2005, then tried it again from 2005-2015. I concluded it was too messed up and was too dangerous to stay in. Watching how children were “force fed” was one of the things that really bothered me. The Lord led me out, and then to this forum.
I’m still a believer, and lover of Jesus.

I understand how your father was recruited into it and entrapped, as I was too.

It is good you are trying to have grace for him. If you take personal responsibility for yourself, pray for him and other family still in it, the Lord will honor that.

I don’t want to highjack your thread though. Please carry on.
Force fed as in made to read ministry books? just curious...
12-18-2017 09:00 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
You're not, I appreciate the response and I'm totally new to this so I'm not sure how/where to see other peoples testimonies.
Click on this link and you will see other Intros and Testimonies on the forum.

They are in reverse chronological order, with yours on top.

Sometimes the discussions wander around cyberspace (as yours has) but you can just read the opening post and scroll down for any followups.

Regarding your questions about anonymity, it is probably best for you NOT to mention names or cities at this point.
12-18-2017 08:35 AM
Drake
Re: Let Sleeping Ducks Lie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Perhaps binge watching Duck Dynasty for the holidays?
It is very possible. Throw in some Daffy Duck toons and we are talking a dream holiday in the making.

12-18-2017 07:49 AM
Ohio
Re: Let Sleeping Ducks Lie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The considerate duck had already paddled away
....but hearing a disturbance he wonders if he is being called back into the fray.
Is that the beckoning sound of a duck call he hears?
No, no, it must be imagination playing in his ears.
Perhaps it is just the familiar trap.
He yawns and settles in for a nap.

Attachment 202
Perhaps binge watching Duck Dynasty for the holidays?
12-18-2017 07:46 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
I was in “the Lords Recovery” (TLR) from 1978-1985, was out from 1985-2005, then tried it again from 2005-2015. I concluded it was too messed up and was too dangerous to stay in. Watching how children were “force fed” was one of the things that really bothered me. The Lord led me out, and then to this forum.
I’m still a believer, and lover of Jesus.

I understand how your father was recruited into it and entrapped, as I was too.

It is good you are trying to have grace for him. If you take personal responsibility for yourself, pray for him and other family still in it, the Lord will honor that.

I don’t want to highjack your thread though. Please carry on.

You're not, I appreciate the response and I'm totally new to this so I'm not sure how/where to see other peoples testimonies. I really would be interested in knowing if I do know some of the members personally. I've seen a few threads with the same questions as mine (better ones actually!) and hints we probably know a lot of the same people, even if I was a child for most of my years there.

Right now, I'm realizing I should probably maintain SOME discreetness due to not wanting this coming back on my family....but also weighing that with wanting to see how many people on here that I met or that knew my family...I know its a little self indulgent but I do like hearing the funny/good stories about my parents. I've heard some not so great ones as well and, I can just say that those help me put things into perspective about the culture of the church....It's been a confusing position to be in and I have to try to see both sides and make my own decisions in life about it all...

I'm interested in how you say you'd describe you were "recruited and entrapped" for those years. Were you in a leadership position? I'm really curious to hear people's thoughts on the amount of stress that could put on someone. Of course, every situation is different and my dad did have a natural ability to just go, go, go....But still, I know it was a burden for him and I just wish I could talk with him now about certain things and how he somehow justified certain behaviors or if he didn't know about them. He was an elder but not really the top one. I just wonder how much he knew sometimes..... I really don't think (which no fault to him without the internet and LC views on psychology) he realized AT ALL how the practices proved to be emotionally unhealthy for kids. He just wanted me to fall in line and I remember as a VERY young child just sitting in the back row of Children's meeting not participating. It wasn't because I didn't believe in God, I did. I just didn't feel like jumping out and down and yelling, "I am a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N" lol. There were really rowdy boys and it was just all too much. But I remember my dad coming and sitting by my in Children's meeting so I'd participate more. The WORST and cheesiest of all was all the young people standing up one by one to call on the Lord three times. There were cute boys there. I did NOT want to do that! lol I just needed to be able to pray and develop my relationship with God in my own way. Back then, they had the YP reading ministry books and going to hours and hours and hours of meetings. I'm glad its somewhat different now but there was just SO much of it that the disconnect between what the YP were going through and workers was light years difference. They had NO IDEA what they were doing with us and it was all about the behavior.

I can realize though, if affected me more being a highly sensitive person with ADD (which, if you're curious about HSP's- 1 in 5 people are and its a well researched. There's a great doc called SENSITIVE by Elaine Aron, who also wrote the best selling book, "The Highly Sensitive Person"). Having these things means I can be easily overwhelmed/overstimulated but also its a strength when I can I can pick up on things that other people can't. My brains takes in ALL the stimuli and I have a LOVE/HATE feeling about it. Off topic too, and don't want to start a debate here but as long as we're talking about what the LC teaches regarding childen, does anyone know what WL says about spanking? He might not go there, I was just curious. There were a lot of teachings about children/young people that were off based that I've listened to but haven't heard anything about that specifically. I do know that someone who was an elder and mentor to my dad actually beat his children and although I can honestly say I wasn't beaten, there were a LOT of spankings. We're all entitled to our opinions but I just don't think its emotionally healthy past a certain age (possibly even at all). It's shown to be ESPECIALLY damaging and not affective with highly sensitive kids who take EVERYTHING more intensely. HSP kids need connection and logic-not, "Do as you're told bc I said so." Of course, there have to be limits and discipline but there are studies that show how some kids are very negatively affected by spanking. I get spanking a two year old for running in the street bc they can't understand logically why that's not a good idea. But I do agree that when a child is ABLE to understand and accept consequences- those consequences do NOT need to be hitting. I can only speak for myself and in no way am I saying I was ever beaten, nothing like that. But, what is normal pain for some kids can be traumatizing for others and it was for me. I'm ONLY saying this to shed some light on my opinion if anyone reading is a parent that still spanks. Take it as you will! I realize it sounds whiny to say it was traumatizing but in the sense that it cut off all connection with my dad- it was. Sorry, that is off topic but it does help make the point that some kids are just different and putting them in situations where you're trying to get a "behavior" from them without connecting with them, can be really damaging. It's a smaller dose of it now with the YP but it's still strongly and almost entirely focused on controlling their behavior. Which ultimately, the unspoken pressure of that causes them to not deal with issues, and then come the coping mechanisms later in life. So on and so forth. Of course, the workers WANT you to have a spiritual experience and know God, just as long as your behavior only looks like "this" and as long as you only say "these things" and with this "tone." Sisters, while you're at it, go ahead and say "PRECIOUS" all the time and talk like one of the Kardashians. Am I right???

(Ok, lol - that might just be my locality! Which, I can embarrassingly admit I said "precious" more than the average person should and I did talk that way. "I mean- I just REALLY enJOYED the LORD-uh! Awwww!!!" Sorry, I'm not making fun of enjoying the Lord - I did have that experience at times. But a lot of it was just "feel good" stuff. I just can't believe that culture has developed that way! It's like the church life is its own country now with it's own dialect! I know for a fact that I'll catch myself saying or writing something with a "flair" of the LSM wording/structure. It's not even spiritual stuff, just a writing/speaking style but it definitely gets it's "hooks in you!")

I should ALSO admit, I was ALWAYS the difficult one so I fully take responsibility for being rebellious. I think the reaction of guilt/shame I got from that wasn't great but I have to recognize that I wasn't easy to deal with. I never was one to conform, always wanted to express myself in weird ways (as in, wear nail polish and makeup in 8th grade- so crazy!). So I do realize how exhausting that could be for an elder in the church to have his daughter not be the most shining example. I specifically remember times though when I was punished for being "defiant" even though I have an excellent point and knew I was right. Yes, I should have respected my elders but when your elders aren't being reasonable it was REALLY hard for me to keep quiet. I feel like all my examples of this are silly but just know there are more serious ones. I'm not here to attack anyone, especially family. One SSOT, when I was in high school we went on an outing to a skating rink. This older brother (who was very sweet) approached a group of us guys/girls who had chosen not to skate (give me a break, we were 16-17 and WAY too cool for that!) and told us we needed to split up (boys and girls, I mean). Well, we had signed a consecration letter prior to the truth school about what communication was allowed with the opposite sex and I knew we were NOT violating this consecration letter. I couldn't help myself and said, "Brother -----, we are all being OPEN, HONEST, and IN THE LIGHT!" This was the phrasing in the consecration letter that we all signed, lol. Although, I should have taken direction at that age - I say that to just show how hypocrisy (even with a silly example like that!) is VERY HARD for me to ignore. I believe it was the next truth school, going into my senior year, when I was asked to leave unless I could change my behavior. My offense was that I didn't participate enough in the corporate morning watches (first of all, my participation was always limited but being a 17 yr old hormonal teenager at 6:30am- they were right, I wasn't participating much). I was just doing the minimum amount of prophesying and verse memorizing. Yeah, I might have not been super into it- but I definitely wasn't being a problem! I was just a typical teenager. That experience really changed a lot for me....If any of you have seen the movie, Office Space (hilarious, btw), it reminds me of Jennifer Anniston's waitress character. She had to wear the minimum amount of "flair" or pins on her uniform and she did wear the minimum. She was still corrected though for not "showing off her flair" and wearing more. I have weird analogies- I get it! But that accurately describes mine and many other church kids experience of feeling like they wanted us to "show off" our spirituality.

So yes, in truth school I guess I wasn't being a great example for them so I was told that if I couldn't participate that I shouldn't be there. Well, ok! Had I known the alternative I would have stayed though! Unfortunately, we weren't even half way into the 10 day long truth school (followed by 3 day conference. Why are they so long btw??) and my family was hosting jr. high boys at our home. I found out that I couldn't go home until the truth school was over. Remember, I was probably 17 years old, there were 12-13, MAYBE 14 yr old boys at our house (sleeping in my room btw but I would have happily slept on the couch or my parents bedroom floor just to be home). The whole reasoning was ridiculous and it's not like we would even ever be alone in the house together, but - that was the decision that was made. So, I had to stay at a female full-timer's house every day for at LEAST 4, probably more like 5-6 days. It SEEMED like an eternity, lol. There was a land line but I had no phone, no computer, no tv, really no books besides LSM ones. I punish my daughter all the time by taking away technology but this situation really did feel extreme to me. I literally just sat there all day. She lived in an apartment about a mile away and I walked home one day. I was told to go back. Now, I almost didn't write that bc I feel like I need to cover my parents. That's why I'll just choose to remain anonymous and if someone wants to personally connect and we find out we know each other- please know I'm only trying to illustrate the extreme situations the YP work involved. I don't think I ever got to talk to my dad about that but my mom has expressed to me, in tears, that she is so sorry for that and I 100% forgive her. She was in a hard place. They had teenage boys staying with them the whole truth school and the idea was that "I needed to learn my lesson."

Forgive me if I sound whiny. I truly am SOOOOO thankful for my life and family, and for being raised in America and having a job, a home, and food on the table. I really am thankful for everything that has made me who I am - hopefully a stronger and better version of myself every day.

That being said, there are A LOT OF PEOPLE STILL HURTING from the LC. If my story helps explain why, then I've helped provide that! If my story helps any LC worker change the way they handle something, then it was worth it

My poor parents, I was never going to fit in there!

Ok, I went off on a tangent but I did want to ask how to go about connecting with people personally? Just PM them or are there boards for former members in certain states? Given the amount of people on here (although maybe not active), I probably know some of you! Or you at least may have known my dad. Also, I do want to try to understand how people are enticed or trapped into this lifestyle. What did I not do that they did? Was is just a generational thing and they were blind to the changes by the time I was older? But if so, why is my close family (younger than me) so caught in it and why can't they see that no matter what they're preaching (I agree, its OFF), the environment is equally important and there are such things as emotionally and spiritually damaging bad practices.

It just seems like they don't care about that at all. I don't understand!
12-18-2017 07:22 AM
least
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Watching how children were “force fed” was one of the things that really bothered me.
kumbaya, I know this is your thread. I like to say something in response to JJ's post.

I've been thinking the last few days: I remember I watched on the Internet, LSM teenagers camp/conference video, how the kids were told they have to be 'age turners' ... like Daniel ... etc.,
The last few days I realised that, by the time they graduated, they then will be trained to be 'under and with' THE Ministry (Minister) Of THE AGE.

THE AGE. So, what age should these teenagers be turning? Overthrow THE AGE of the LSM MOTA?

What do they do to children, teenagers, and adults?

They (LSM blended leaders) say 'for the Lord' ... who/what is theirs (the Lord)?

Its disturbing.

-
12-18-2017 07:17 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

[QUOTE=Ohio;67579]Drake, I believe you, and that highlights a problem.

In order to defend the LC system, one must be a little heartless. I know I was there too. When it came to protecting LSM and LC leadership, all members became *expendable*. That's just how it was.

But not so with the Lord Jesus.





I never thought of it like that, but yeah-I definitely felt "different" and somehow crowded out or ignored or "concerned for"(but in a weird way) when they knew I was having a hard time with the practices.

I was basically told by multiple people that the time I was spending looking into this things would be better spend getting in the Word. The funny thing is, I WAS! I was trying to look up verses about the church, and I was also reading material on best practices from qualified teachers on what are healthy/vs. unhealthy church practices were. The things I was reading weren't even targeting the LC- just describing unhealthy practices. But I was told to worry about myself and let the brothers deal with the brothers. And this was from someone I respected!

It was actually a good conversation back and forth- I'm currently trying to decide how open I want to be about where I'm from and the people involved. I'm not trying to attack anyone but its hard to make a point sometimes without experience.

The point is, me talking about it was a problem. At that point I was wasn't meeting but I was letting my daughter go. After I brought up some concerns that were ignored, I realized this is not a healthy place. No one leading even took concerns into consideration. I realized that all these issues were not "new" to them and just coming from me- ha! They've been battling this logic for years! I don't know how much longer they'll be able to in this day and age. At some point, the fear tactic of being "poisoned" might lose its power and people will look up this info themselves. There is just too much material from qualified Christian experts of how to meet in a healthy way.

There is little room there is for self examination there though when its a hierarchy system.

Ironically, at this point -in order to maintain control, they have no CHOICE but to use these methods or it would all fall apart for them. I don't see them letting that happen so they resort these unhealthy practices.

I'll find the link I have listing unhealthy practices and post. It would be interesting to see how many of you all have experienced the things on it!
12-18-2017 07:12 AM
Drake
Let Sleeping Ducks Lie

The considerate duck had already paddled away
....but hearing a disturbance he wonders if he is being called back into the fray.
Is that the beckoning sound of a duck call he hears?
No, no, it must be imagination playing in his ears.
Perhaps it is just the familiar trap.
He yawns and settles in for a nap.

Attachment 202
12-18-2017 06:35 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Thanks. I don't mind explaining that. Perhaps I'm a little overprotective with myself but if you knew me you'd know I'm still not great at handling conflict. Not saying it was intentional but I was feeling attacked and have learned that the best response when feeling that way is to have accountability by knowing everything said is open for all to see. If that came off as something else, I'm sorry.
I thought you handled the situation quite well. Perhaps you don't give yourself enough credit. Drake (and other pro-LSM posters) can be quite infuriating at times, but you seemed to display just the right amount of push back and humility. He keeps us honest, and we him, though I'm sure he will disagree.

I think having posters like him on your thread has really helped you. Look at how much more has surfaced in such a short time. This forum is a friendly discussion of ideas by members and former members of the LC's. It's helpful for you to know that you are not alone, neither was yours an isolated case. What you have learned helps others here too.

One thing we have all faced is the guilt shaming. You just recently faced a couple incidents of this concerning tithing and that Steinem quote. Instead of listening to what you were trying to say, he attempted to discredit you by zeroing in on minor things. So typical. Pass the camel and strain out the gnats.

But notice there was no response to WL's comment about "losing their virginity." That was during an elders' meeting. How irreverent was that? Compare what WL did and said during Daystar with the Apostle Paul's fellowship with the Corinthians in II Cor. 11.1-4. Not good. But these events have been hidden from nearly all the members.
12-18-2017 06:04 AM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I'm going to, thanks for responding. I'm happy to share and connect.
What's your story?
I was in “the Lords Recovery” (TLR) from 1978-1985, was out from 1985-2005, then tried it again from 2005-2015. I concluded it was too messed up and was too dangerous to stay in. Watching how children were “force fed” was one of the things that really bothered me. The Lord led me out, and then to this forum.
I’m still a believer, and lover of Jesus.

I understand how your father was recruited into it and entrapped, as I was too.

It is good you are trying to have grace for him. If you take personal responsibility for yourself, pray for him and other family still in it, the Lord will honor that.

I don’t want to highjack your thread though. Please carry on.
12-17-2017 09:05 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Perhaps the Private Messaging system was a red flag to her and she became a little suspicious. I don't know.

It doesn't appear to me that she wants to "push the limit." She is just sorting out LC issues with other former members.

Thanks. I don't mind explaining that. Perhaps I'm a little overprotective with myself but if you knew me you'd know I'm still not great at handling conflict. Not saying it was intentional but I was feeling attacked and have learned that the best response when feeling that way is to have accountability by knowing everything said is open for all to see. If that came off as something else, I'm sorry.

I just have no desire to get into a private one on one argument with anyone. I hope it can just be dropped now
12-17-2017 08:54 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Kumbaya, your story breaks my heart. Thanks for sharing it.

It is good you have been getting counseling.

Drake is taking issue with a word that is in several verses in many translations of the Bible (look it up) but not the violation of personal choice you and many local church kids grow up with.

That’s heartless. I’d ignore him if I was you. But, your choice.
I'm going to, thanks for responding. I'm happy to share and connect.
What's your story?
12-17-2017 08:48 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Thank you for your comments about LSM's "business model." It confirms my own thoughts. LSM controls LC's by controlling elders and workers. They are mixing the evil things of the world into the holy kingdom of God. The Lord warned us about "ruling like the Gentiles do." (Matt. 20.25-28)

Besides Daystar, WL peddled tennis rackets, suits, chairs, and who knows how many other schemes we never learned about. He even started a "little banker" scheme for the saints to save all their money, and pay off Daystar debts. Hundreds of dear saints felt defrauded and left. Many were stumbled. When asked about the Daystar debacle, and about so many wounded saints, WL said that "they had lost their virginity." In other words, these brothers and sisters got "raped" by the ministry.
It's almost unbelievable. I can hardly believe things like this when I hear them. I'm waiting for the day when I DON'T feel like it's turned my world upside down.

Because I grew up around the influence, even when I wasn't meeting as a young adult- I still thought it was the "right way" for many years. I thought that maybe I wasn't good enough for it right then, but someday I thought I'd come back and "get right with God" which the only way to do that of course, was to meet with the local church.

The fact that I EVEN HAD THIS MINDSET tells me how OPPRESSIVE the environment was. Even when I didn't feel like it was for me, I blamed myself.

Are we talking Jesus still???
That is NOT Jesus. Jesus is attractive, this environment was a "standard of living" that I could not be.

Also, I'm not going to respond to some of the posts that have said I'm belligerent or condescending except for now. I'm sorry if I came off that way, it wasn't my intent. It's a little hurtful to hear your viewpoints and writing as beligerent but I'm just going to say again that you're not helping me, Drake, and I'd like you to leave me alone.
12-17-2017 08:24 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I understand, and was not bothered. And btw good decision making is one of the greatest skills in life we all must learn. Few LC members seem to learn that skill. I have been playing catch up my whole life.

I am so thankful you have not discarded your faith and love in Christ Jesus when you left the LC. Unfortunately far too many have. I think many lost it before they left. The way you honor your late father is wonderful. That also will help to safeguard your faith.

You are right to question why so few LC young people keep their faith into their adult life. Their failure rate is unacceptable. The faith of many young people was damaged due to LSM's quarantines, lawsuits, and divisive activities. This is why I have no more respect for LSM and their operatives.


I so agree with you on the decision making or should I say, LACK of decision making I have. Not sure if this is just a personality thing (probably somewhat), but its no coincidence that not being able to make my own decisions and being shamed (even unintentionally) for wanting to "be a part of the world" (gasp!) has affected me. The fear/shame/guilt game is not the approach one should have to show Christ's love. I know you know and agree....

I have absolutely not discarded my faith but it's interesting bc (and I don't pretend to know why, maybe half me and half LC blame), I NEVER touched my spirit until I was 28 years old and was definitely NOT meeting then.

I'll never question that ever. I was in a bad place, dealing with bad decisions, and I told the Lord I was, "cracking the door open" to Him. What I experienced in the next few days/weeks/months I'll never question.

The funny thing is, I attended all the truth schools and conferences, sisters meetings and young peoples meetings. I had college sisters calling me 3 times a week in the mornings for morning watch. I became a robot. I knew the right words to say and the intonations to use. But then, I just felt guilty and knew I was faking it. On one hand I was expected to do these things or it would be a "problem" and I didn't want to deal with that, so I did it. On the other, it slowly caused resentment that just built up and all I wanted to do was escape.

Thank you for your comment on my dad, I have to get over feeling like he would be disappointed or something but I have to say my story bc if anything is true- keeping silent never helps anyone. I just want to help. Actually, realizing many of my control issues were with our relationship has given me some grace towards the LC and LSM, but I also know how influenced he was by that mindset. He was very well liked and a good dad, if you know about Myers Briggs- pretty sure he was an ENTJ. I tested and was an ENFP and the conflict makes perfect sense in that perspective.

Back to the first time I actually touched my spirit though (that I can remember), I was 28 and it was a true breakthrough experience. I felt like Jesus was coming through my Bible and hugging me. How can I question that? I was on a spiritual high for months! Unfortunately, I interpreted this experience as a sign to jump 100% back in the church life. I really thought my life was going to be a certain way! I got married and my husband and I were meeting and I really expected to have this great church life after that turn! I thought I'd have a life and marriage like my parents(and they did have an excellent marriage-which, although I'm so extremely grateful for, also led me to be extremely naive that all men were the husbands my dad was. Yeah, not the case) So, as reality set in and I realized my husband actually had deep emotional issues that I couldn't fix or figure out, and tried to hide that and "be a certain way" in the church life, it all just went south.

I know I could have tried harder with my relationship with the Lord but I was so broken and just couldn't accept my reality. I just realized that there are a lot of people who are never going to fit in to the LC, partly bc they're so exclusive, and you're not really going to get help from people who don't understand your life. The local church life doesn't have a lot of room or tolerance for your issues, at least not for too long. So suck it up and start serving and shepherding others bc the "love bomb" you got when you came back has ended. Obviously, I know a lot of it wasn't intentional but I agree that the failure rate of keeping people around is very low and feel like I know why....

I really think that in order to bc in the LC now, you either have to be an experienced saint who was so on fire for the Lord in the early days and just has accepted/turned a blind eye to all the changes, OR a naive young person wanting to escape reality.

Obviously the local church life has changed a LOT, and maybe in some ways its better. But you HAVE to have an avenue for questioning and you HAVE to be able to examine yourself and take psychological and social issues into consideration and they truly DO NOT DO THAT.

I know I'm not needing to convince you of this, just trying to sort it all out.
12-17-2017 08:13 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Perhaps the Private Messaging system was a red flag to her and she became a little suspicious. I don't know.

It doesn't appear to me that she wants to "push the limit." She is just sorting out LC issues with other former members.
Well, I don’t see that way Brother Ohio.

Nevertheless, you might be right, so I’ll stand down on this one.

Drake
12-17-2017 07:56 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

Ohio, I thought her reference might have been unintentional so I reached out to her privately to resolve it once she indicated she did not know what I was referring to. Had she edited out the quote I would have deleted the content of my reply as well. However, since she chose to make a public defense of the quote I am not convinced she did not intend it since she states she pushes the limit.

So we’ll see. In this instance, my objection is not about profanity, rather, it is about profaniing the words of our Lord. That will always get a response out of me as it should every Christian.

Drake
Perhaps the Private Messaging system was a red flag to her and she became a little suspicious. I don't know.

It doesn't appear to me that she wants to "push the limit." She is just sorting out LC issues with other former members.
12-17-2017 07:51 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

JJ>”Drake is taking issue with a word....”

JJ,

No, I’m not. Read what I said.

Drake
12-17-2017 07:43 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

-1

Ohio, I thought her reference might have been unintentional so I reached out to her privately to resolve it once she indicated she did not know what I was referring to. Had she edited out the quote I would have deleted the content of my reply as well. However, since she chose to make a public defense of the quote I am not convinced she did not intend it since she states she pushes the limit.

So we’ll see. In this instance, my objection is not about profanity, rather, it is about profaning the words of our Lord. That will always get a response out of me as it should every Christian.

Drake
12-17-2017 07:11 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Profane means: to treat (something sacred) with irreverence or disrespect

That distortion of John 8:32 was both irreverent and disrespectful.
I don't think she intended to do that. She was not mocking or disrespecting God's word, rather pulling a quote from memory that she thought would apply.

Since you have become the caretaker of reverent and respectful words and sayings, how do you respond to W. Lee's comments that those who lost money in his Daystar motor home business "had lost their virginity?"
12-17-2017 07:07 PM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya, your story breaks my heart. Thanks for sharing it.

It is good you have been getting counseling.

Drake is taking issue with a word that is in several verses in many translations of the Bible (look it up) but not the violation of personal choice you and many local church kids grow up with.

That’s heartless. I’d ignore him if I was you. But, your choice.
12-17-2017 07:05 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I was just a little fish. They abused saints financially from the beginning with Daystar and there is plenty of proof of it. Take away everything LSM books say and look at the business model. It matches a multi-level direct sales approach. Don’t make me draw a pic! Lol
Thank you for your comments about LSM's "business model." It confirms my own thoughts. LSM controls LC's by controlling elders and workers. They are mixing the evil things of the world into the holy kingdom of God. The Lord warned us about "ruling like the Gentiles do." (Matt. 20.25-28)

Besides Daystar, WL peddled tennis rackets, suits, chairs, and who knows how many other schemes we never learned about. He even started a "little banker" scheme for the saints to save all their money, and pay off Daystar debts. Hundreds of dear saints felt defrauded and left. Many were stumbled. When asked about the Daystar debacle, and about so many wounded saints, WL said that "they had lost their virginity." In other words, these brothers and sisters got "raped" by the ministry.
12-17-2017 06:53 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Profane means: to treat (something sacred) with irreverence or disrespect

That distortion of John 8:32 was both irreverent and disrespectful.

Since my goodwill gesture in hopes to resolve this between us in private email was rejected then in full disclosure of what was stated in full kumbaya failed to mention that I also said if she decided to do something about it she can edit it within 24 hours and that the quote detracts from her argument. I also stated I was willing to have a dialogue but this is a line that should not be crossed.

Kumbaya, that is not bullying, that was a sincere outreach. I think you are overplaying the bully card and I could make a case that the belligerent content and condescending tone of some your posts (not all) in this thread penetrates well into the bullying scale.

Drake
12-17-2017 06:50 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I agree to it pushing the limit, and I apologize and will consider taking it down for even that reason.

I don't think thats the issue anymore, being bullied into behaving a certain way is a bit of a trigger for me and I have to stand my ground against that.

Thank you for your response, I didn't think I was doing that and wouldn't want to. I was just trying to elaborate on my feelings at the moment and used that quote bc I felt it did explain my feeling and at this point- feel like I'm just standing up for myself.
I understand, and was not bothered. And btw good decision making is one of the greatest skills in life we all must learn. Few LC members seem to learn that skill. I have been playing catch up my whole life.

I am so thankful you have not discarded your faith and love in Christ Jesus when you left the LC. Unfortunately far too many have. I think many lost it before they left. The way you honor your late father is wonderful. That also will help to safeguard your faith.

You are right to question why so few LC young people keep their faith into their adult life. Their failure rate is unacceptable. The faith of many young people was damaged due to LSM's quarantines, lawsuits, and divisive activities. This is why I have no more respect for LSM and their operatives.
12-17-2017 06:33 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
The quote is a little off-color, and Steinem gathers little respect in Christian circles, but the quote does not "profane the words of our Lord."

Perhaps the Moderator UntoHim would like to change the post.
I agree to it pushing the limit, and I apologize and will consider taking it down for even that reason.

I don't think thats the issue anymore, being bullied into behaving a certain way is a bit of a trigger for me and I have to stand my ground against that.

Thank you for your response, I didn't think I was doing that and wouldn't want to. I was just trying to elaborate on my feelings and that quote nailed it but if I should edit it- I will. At this point- I just feel like I'm just standing against what seems to be bullish behavior so I had to ask others.
12-17-2017 06:12 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

The quote is a little off-color, and Steinem gathers little respect in Christian circles, but the quote does not "profane the words of our Lord."

Perhaps the Moderator UntoHim would like to change the post.
12-17-2017 06:02 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

[QUOTE=kumbaya;67599]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

Don’t profane the words of our Lord.

Knock it off.[/QUOTE

Who are you saying did and what was said? There's no quote on your post.

I just received a private message from Drake. Apparently the Gloria Steinem quote I wrote referenced a verse. I didn't realize that and I apologize if I offended anyone.

He wants me to take it down. Now, its my nature to not offend but I can't help feeling like you just might be bullying me, Drake.

I mean, I wrote a whole post about how I've come to this shocking and painful revelation and (unknowingly) included a funny quote that I didn't even realize had a Biblical reference to it. The quote was, "The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off."

And here I thought the most offensive thing about it was the second part!

Others besides Drake- is that blashemy? If it is, of course I will take it down and not use it again. I'm not scared to be corrected if its the truth.

I'm asking to clear two things up.

1. Is Drake being a bully? Bc if so, Drake- knock it off.

2. I liked that quote so would like to know if its is offensive to other Christians. To me, it's not. Maybe bc Gloria Steinem wasn't using the word "truth" in a spiritual sense. She was a women's activist who spoke out against gender inequality. I think whether or not you agree with her or like her, the quote is pretty accurate! I heard a sister in the church remind a brother about a time he said, "the Spirit is strong, but the coffee was weak." (haha) Isn't that the same thing? Regardless, I'll edit it if enough think I should. I just didn't and still don't think its a big deal but can admit when I'm wrong when shown why.

Drake told me his thoughts about it crossing a line and asked me to remove it. Does anyone else think I should? I'm just not into giving into bullying and have a strong suspicion this might be that sort of situation.

Drake, you're not showing a good example of a local church member. And I know this because I DO have family and friends in the LC. Now, I'm actually saying you're a BAD EXAMPLE of someone in the LC. How about that? None of my family or friends in the LC or even other believers would call out and shame me for something like that. You didn't even ask me if I knew it was a biblical reference and even if I did- it could be argued that it's not a bad thing bc she wasn't using it to reference the Bible. There are plenty of phrases in the Bible that can be secularized and used in different terms. She wasn't bashing the Bible when she said that. The point is, you constantly ignore the main point of every post and nit pick every slight and unintentional inaccuracy or misspeaking. You did it when I said that local church member's give 10% of their income when I should have said I assumed they give 10% of their income, being the good people they are. And you're doing it again now.

WWJD, Drake? Admonish and shame, me? If I'm wrong, which is yet to be determined- I'll take it down. But forgive me if I don't take your word for it given the lack of grace and logical response you seem to have.

I have no hate for you. Why are you picking on me? Can you please stop? Just let it go and do something others think is helpful to their lives. You're not doing that for me so I'm asking you to leave me alone.
12-17-2017 05:18 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

[QUOTE=Drake;67596]-1

Don’t profane the words of our Lord.

Knock it off.[/QUOTE

Who are you saying did and what was said? There's no quote on your post.
12-17-2017 04:53 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-2

Kumbaya,

Ok.

Just to be clear. You never personally suffered abuse directly from LSM.

Drake
Indirectally, I have. I personally have suffered spiritual abuse (unintentional from those giving it) because of the practices preached by Living Stream Ministry. I didn't even realize before counseling years ago that spiritual abuse was a thing. I didn't even fully consider it because I was dealing with the effects of an abusive marriage. As I dug deeper, I realized how most of my issues stemmed (typically!) from my childhood and relationship with my dad. Now, I don't want to play the blame game and put all that on LSM, of course that's ridiculous.

But, the practices of showing your spirituality in a public manner as a child/young person have been researched and the things in children's meeting's and truth school's that were practiced back then (although somewhat different now), were considered the best way back then. I've listened to audio tapes online over young peoples work and am familiar with the mindset then. I was completely controlled (well, as best as they could!) until a mid teen and then I was given some freedom to make my own choices.

I realize this is a silly example but it's the best one I can think of right now, My first choice my dad let me make (at 15), regarding a decision that he didn't agree with but was "loosening the reins," was whether or not I would go to the movie theatre with some friends. I was definitely never allowed to do that and the one time I snuck it and got caught - I was grounded for 2 months! I probably would have gotten away with it though if Titanic wasn't 3 hrs long, ha! Sorry, tangent - but the first decision I made on my own to do something "worldly", I was 15 and it was to go see Jurassic Park 2 with my cousin. All this seems silly but I say it to prove a point. By the time I was 18 I COULDN'T WAIT to get out of that house and make my own decisions that were EXACTLY the opposite of everything shoved down my throat my whole life. Unfortunately, I thought I knew everything and didn't realize that my having all my decisions made for me my whole life and not having boundaries with people (I still think "hospitality" is a dangerous practice related to that), I attracted people who were controlling and overstepped boundaries due to not ever learning how to make my own decisions and have limits with people. It's taken me YEARS to (hopefully) stop the cycle and recognize it. I know the locality I grew up in has almost NO former church kids attending. I can think of less than 10, maybe casually 15 to 20 tops, out of probably hundreds. Of the ones who stayed, they all seem to have an obedient non-questioning personality naturally. There's definitely a problem- so, what is it? I know a lot of kids stop attending churches they grew up in and I don't have statistics to prove this but it seems like a lot of the young people from my locality have REALLY struggled emotionally and just in life. I don't know how normal it is but it seems excessive to me.

So yes, I believe the extremeness that was taught in the LSM material (not the Bible) was taken to heart by many parents and many children were damaged.

I hope that answered your question.
12-17-2017 04:48 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

-1

Don’t profane the words of our Lord.

Knock it off.
12-17-2017 04:41 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Drake, I believe you, and that highlights a problem.

In order to defend the LC system, one must be a little heartless. I know I was there too. When it came to protecting LSM and LC leadership, all members became *expendable*. That's just how it was.

But not so with the Lord Jesus.

Consider how compassionate He was with all those seeking God in that intolerable system in Jerusalem. He was the Good Shepherd who would leave the 99, just to care for the one lost ewe lamb. He was the Good Samaritan who would bind up the wounds of the downtrodden whom their leaders and trainers considered "not good material." He was the Door of the sheep for all those locked in oppressive legalistic systems, thinking all is well because that's all they knew, yet vulnerable to thieves and robbers who held them in fear.


I truely do not see how ANYONE can defend the history of this business- I don't care WHAT they're selling. The "seller" has a rotten history and they're selling what I believe is some truth/some twisted truths/some questionable truths in order to control other Christians.

I think I've mentioned that I don't have a problem with EVERYTHING WL says, he's saying a lot of the same things brothers before him did, right?

Just recently I came across some writings of A.Z. Tozer and was so surprised at how SIMILAR the writings were. There was a lot of life there!

The problem is, LSM material consists a bunch of different writings on subjects from the Bible to how to practically live the church life. It's all packaged up and sold and the unspoken influence by "branding" these writings with the LSM stamp is that believers take it ALL as truth. WL literally wrote a playbook on how to interpret EVERY single thing in the Bible (when there are still highly debated topics), and wrote out best "practices" for how to live the modern day church life. It's GOD'S ECONOMY.

Has anyone watched Leah Remini's documentary about Scientology? Of course, I'm NOT comparing the two as having the same degrees of severity but the tactic is the same. The doc talks about all the "policies"- basically ways to function in life practically as a Scientologist, and I couldn't help thinking it sounded familiar!

Why is WL telling us all how to "practically live our Christian life?" On one hand he might say to follow your Spirit but on the other he'll say what could or couldn't be your Spirit due to following the flow in God's economy. It's all so confusing so people just tune it out and accept what the culture is without questioning....

The thing is, he's not the first person to claim to have seen the full truth and he won't be the last.

These tactics are used in Scientology and other cults and its a shame to see them used here....

It's the HIGH TRUTH scam, the eliteness of being in a group of people who have the highest truth.

No, you shouldn't raise yourself like that above other believers. We're all in the body of Christ, right?

What Christian organizations does the LC work with? none.

What charity work do they participate in? none.

It's ALL about getting college kids (which another red flag practice is not using their real name) and spreading THEIR version of the truth.

The people making the decisions to do this also run LSM, a business.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong bc I still do NOT WANT TO BE RIGHT.

I'd rather have the hard truth than an easy lie though.

Sorry about the crudeness of this quote but it applies...

"The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off."
-Gloria Steinem

I can admit that's how I've been feeling! I do think I'm somewhat passed the anger though and now just feel sad. Trying to get to that acceptance part.

Anyone else want to talk about the process they had to go through after leaving? I realize someday I won't be so emotional about the whole thing. I just naturally want to protect and defend my family from it and I can't.

It's a very strange feeling to feel so strongly that you're right but not WANT TO BE.

I'm just trying to sort out the feeling that it was all just a lie that my dad fell for and how that doesn't necessarily mean it was this huge travesty for us and we can move on.
12-17-2017 04:07 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

-2

Kumbaya,

Ok.

Just to be clear. You never personally suffered abuse directly from LSM.

Drake
12-17-2017 02:47 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Sorry Drake but you just sound a little heartless.
I was just a little fish. They abused saints financially from the beginning with Daystar and there is plenty of proof of it. Take away everything LSM books say and look at the business model. It matches a multi-level direct sales approach. Don’t make me draw a pic! Lol
12-17-2017 02:44 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>”But can you recognize the abuse that LSM has dolled out in the past and spiritual/emotional dangers of having a business so closely tied to a group of believers?”

Kumbaya,

No, I don’t.

It might help my understanding if you share the abuse that LSM personally doled out to you.

Drake
I’m referring to all the damage Philip Lee caused in the LSM office with abusing sisters and exerting control to the trainees when he wasn’t even a believer (most thought). Because of this, Witness Lee finally was forced to excommunicate him before more damage was done. You cant recognize these things were due to a business influencing control on a church?

What about the fact that LSM used money from the saints to repay Daystar loans? What about WL taking a 100k loan from the church in Boston to jumpstart Phosphorous- the manufacturer of Daystar motor homes? You don’t think that caused damage to the saints due to the fact that it was an illegal business scheme? Please correct me if I’m wrong but I’ve heard the recording between WL and the elder in Boston and WL admits to these things.

Do you think it caused damage when saints who invested in Daystar, when they were asked to by WL, weren’t repaid and lost their money? Or when Max R. went around to the churches and asked the saints to forgive their loans to WL?

Do any of these examples better explain the damage of mixing finances between a church and a business?

Also, does anyone know how much money from LSM goes to WL’s family now?
12-17-2017 12:00 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
. Actually the amount of tithing is 10% and 5 % This was the recommended amount for good, mature, spiritual, saints.
During the great full-timer recruiting campaign of 1985, W. Lee instructed all the saints to give 10% tithe to the church and 5% tithe for new workers.
12-17-2017 10:43 AM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Wow. Did you really say that? Was following the Lord supposed to be like that?
Yes I did say it - experienced it first hand. Is that what following the Lord is supposed to look like? Absolutely not. I'm so grateful I met the Lord before meeting the church of Witness Lee. I remember sitting in a room in Anaheim watching a group of 15 or so sit and spin their wheels about how difficult it was to understand Lee's "high" teaching. There was a spirit of confusion, pride, and lifelessness. But each of them knew it was right to say how it was a rich and beautiful teaching - they just didn't know why.

But no, I did not partake in this "show". When I spoke in meetings it never had anything to do with morning revival or Witness Lee.
12-17-2017 09:45 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio,

It may appear that way to you, however, I assure i am not.

Drake
Drake, I believe you, and that highlights a problem.

In order to defend the LC system, one must be a little heartless. I know I was there too. When it came to protecting LSM and LC leadership, all members became *expendable*. That's just how it was.

But not so with the Lord Jesus.

Consider how compassionate He was with all those seeking God in that intolerable system in Jerusalem. He was the Good Shepherd who would leave the 99, just to care for the one lost ewe lamb. He was the Good Samaritan who would bind up the wounds of the downtrodden whom their leaders and trainers considered "not good material." He was the Door of the sheep for all those locked in oppressive legalistic systems, thinking all is well because that's all they knew, yet vulnerable to thieves and robbers who held them in fear.
12-17-2017 07:32 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Sorry Drake but you just sound a little heartless.
Ohio,

It may appear that way to you, however, I assure i am not.

Drake
12-17-2017 06:40 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
1. I did not detect any tears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
It might help my understanding if you share the abuse that LSM personally doled out to you.
Sorry Drake but you just sound a little heartless.
12-17-2017 05:13 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya>”But can you recognize the abuse that LSM has dolled out in the past and spiritual/emotional dangers of having a business so closely tied to a group of believers?”

Kumbaya,

No, I don’t.

It might help my understanding if you share the abuse that LSM personally doled out to you.

Drake
12-17-2017 05:04 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
If Kumbaya was in a difficult situation, and she came to your meeting in tears and then smiled afterwards, would you then advise her about "confusing finding comfort and solace with healing," and then warn her about entering a "like minded crowd or a group of sympathizers?"

I didn't think so.

.
Brother Ohio,

I understand your point and you are absolutely correct ....I wouldn’t have.

Yet, two things.

1. I did not detect any tears and
2. This is not that kind of place.

Drake
12-16-2017 08:10 PM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
First, if you and others would respond to absurd statements like the alleged tithing of 10% income to LSM then I wouldn’t feel compelled to do it.
. Actually the amount of tithing is 10% and 5 % This was the recommended amount for good, mature, spiritual, saints.
12-16-2017 04:48 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
It is kind of like the point about being forced to buy HWMR. They didn't need to force me to purchase - I forked over my own money without anyone asking me to. BUT it was understood that in order to participate, fellowship, "prophesy", and interact with other members - you had to get a booklet. And everyone would say (publicly) how great and how much they "enjoyed" reading the books. Poorly written, devoid of Gods spirit, theologically questionable, and overall just an unenjoyable read. But in public, you say how great it was. That is how the game is played.
Wow. Did you really say that? Was following the Lord supposed to be like that?
12-16-2017 02:46 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Hey Kumbaya,

Others on this forum will probably have a better answer for you. I can only speak to my experience.

There are really two ways to answer this question.

1. No, they do not openly discourage people from reading/posting on this site. I doubt the site is blocked on LSM church networks, and no one will be monitoring your web searches.

2. Yes, I was told by multiple people, across multiple localities, including church elder and full timers NOT to read stuff on the internet. They all called it poison. It made such an impression on me (as it was so clearly communicated) that I decided to heed their warning during my time at the church. My time with the church was intentionally dedicated to understanding and following their flow - which I did with fidelity until it was blatantly obvious that Witness Lee and the LSM are a farce. One member aptly calls it a "personality cult".

It is kind of like the point about being forced to buy HWMR. They didn't need to force me to purchase - I forked over my own money without anyone asking me to. BUT it was understood that in order to participate, fellowship, "prophesy", and interact with other members - you had to get a booklet. And everyone would say (publicly) how great and how much they "enjoyed" reading the books. Poorly written, devoid of Gods spirit, theologically questionable, and overall just an unenjoyable read. But in public, you say how great it was. That is how the game is played.

I am fortunate that I left the LSM churches without wounds (unlike many others on this site). My experience there was actually very pleasant. I knew all the right people and all the right people liked me. I was good material. I guess that is why some people stay, they are made to feel important, special, smart, spiritually mature, bigger and better than those in "poor degraded Christianity" (especially those nasty catholics ). I think what attracted people to me was Christ's Spirit within - a perfectly flawed believer made whole through the blood of Jesus. Just a regular dude, comfortable in his own skin, and willing to be the same person when talking to an elder or the janitor.

The Lord led my steps. May he continue to heal you and lead you closer to his grace, mercy, and truth.
Thank you so much for that response! I was told the same thing growing up and even when I wasn’t meeting for most of my 20’s, I still didn’t look up any criticism online because I truely had this fear that Satan would “get me” and I’d be “poisoned.”

It’s taken me a while to accept that while we should have a healthy fear of the Lord, we shouldn’t fear criticism from others. If anything, you should be able to question and examine criticism (especially with eternal matters right?) to see if there is any truth at all so you can know you’re constantly realigning yourself with the Lord. I might not have this right but there’s the doctrine of the fallacy of man that reminds us that none of us is incapable of sin. Shouldn’t there be a path or avenue to allow accountability within leadership for a group of believers?

I don’t see that at all in the LC. All the submission/authority practices seem extremely off base with what the Bible says. The verses they use don’t really explain (at least to me) how they justify their practices.

But back to the topic, I appreciate you sharing your experience about enjoying the church life. I actually really like a lot of the people in the locality I grew up in. Sometimes I wish my brain didn’t work the way it did and I could not overthink so much. It’s a blessing and a curse sometimes. Things would certainly be a lot easier if I would just “go with the flow.”

But- I wouldn’t be happy not having my own journey.

I understand that feeling of being liked and knowing the right people. As much as I’m a problem for some people in my locality, I feel like (at least I sense) that people stil like me. I feel pretty strongly that if that local church was just an independent non-denominational Bible-based church then I would go there! I feel like you also can see the bigger picture though. It’s off, it’s tainted. Somewhere, somehow- either from the beginning or years later- it became unhealthy.

This part is hard for me to write about but I feel like it’s important to recognize. It’s just very personal and still painful for me but I have to be able to speak my truth without feeling like I’m bringing shame to my family or being disrespectful to my dad. I could write a novel on the complexity of our relationship but the part of it that relates here is me knowing his background and how he was just a perfect “fit” or “bait” for the LC.

Aside from his decisions about the LC, I admire most everything about him. I know he loved me, sacrificied a lot, and did what he honestly thought was right with the best intentions. Did he make mistakes? Yes. But I have a child and I’ve probably made more than him- that’s not the issue. We also had personalities that I’ve learned will naturally clash. He did not understand me and I deal with conflict (or used to) by shutting down. Somehow we were never able to get on the same page. I was deeply affected by the pressure to perform my spirituality publically. It caused my spirit to be numbed. The culture of guilt and shame and oppression on the young people is somewhat better now in that locality but it’s still there. This created a constant feeling of shame for me where I never felt good enough- even though I knew I was smart and creative, I had terribly self esteem. I’ve had to go back and listen to audio tapes of Eugene Gruehler speaking about the “goals for the young people” to be able to understand why my dad had a certain mindset in his parenting. I believe that goal #1 was to have every young person baptized by 6th grade and goal #2 was to have them all attend the full time training. There was all sorts of misguided advice about psychology, etc....the truth is, a lot of kids didn’t get their needs met for where they were in their emotional development. I’m not saying that to criticize but to hopefully increase awareness of how important it is. Growing up one of the most important lessons you learn in emotional development is a sense of community. We had a skewed sense of that (can you tell I’ve had some counseling? Lol) having it only in the local church. Everything else was “wordly.” It was very much an “us verses them” mentality and I picked up on that at a young age. Looking back I can recognize that they just thought they were doing what was right, but I also have to be able to say that feeling “weird” and feeling like you don’t fit in with your peers bc of a spiritual difference in your family is emotionally unhealthy. Those are issues for later in life. A child needs to fit in before they can ever make the choice for themselves to feel different. Currently, I’m almost as different as they come but back then I needed to fit in badly- and I didn’t. I was constantly embarrassed and ashamed of our weirdness. It’s just one of those things that’s not a big deal at all- but to kids, it is.

What further complicates this journey is the tendency to put people on a pedestal when they’ve passed. It’s very hard sometimes for a child to try to be objective and recognize the issues that were in play during a time period and relate the affects of the issues to the issues themselves. I had a great dad and I wouldn’t change anything bc it’s been my journey and I accept that. But some things affect you negatively and some positively and I think it’s important to be objective in examining that.

I can see that my dad saw a “father figure” that he never had in someone who (an elder) was found out to be an abusive person. I can see that his natural likeability and discipline, his speaking/musical abilities, his non-stop energy and I know, genuine care about people were just perfect for the role of an elder. The church was the family my dad never had. He followed to a tee (from what I know), and I know he thought he was doing was was right. But it caused so many problems bc, I believe it was unbalanced. We’ve had issues as kids and our extended family has too. Of course, things have changed but back then it was a meeting very single night, they were told to choose between family and the church, and they wouldn’t go into a home (even extended family members homes) with a Christmas tree bc it was an “idol.” Good grief! I’m saying all that to point out that although I’m glad some things have changed drastically, that the culture is not done being oppressive and controlling. It’s lightened up but it’s still the same culture, just a smaller dose of it.

I didn’t plan on writing all that- LOfT, you got me thinking about it when you wrote about some people just fitting in. Obviously I’ve felt the same.

It’s really refreshing to accept its 100% possible for me to go on by seeing everyone doing that here. Even though I KNOW that, its an immediate programmed guilt/shame feeling when I tell myself that I'm standing for something different than how I was raised. I don't believe its a healthy environment to know God and grow in Him. Yet I don't really fit in with members of denominations either so, where does that leave us lost church kids? Deserted. I need to see believers going on after being in the LC and see that it's possible. I believe it but I don't KNOW KNOW it- if that makes sense I'll probably need to be reminded of that for a while.

I just really think this issue is so huge and it’s so important to recognize. I have a lot of concern and sadness for the environment the kids/YP are in bc I personally know the struggles they might face in life and feel for them.

I know it’s not my job to fix anything though. Maybe if any LCers are reading they can hopefully take it to heart. It's not just me, I have many friends who would agree that the young people’s work wasn’t good for them. I still fight feeling guilty for saying that bc I know there were a lot of sacrifices made by people but unfortunately- it’s still true.

Shame on LSM, that's what I can conclude from it all.
12-16-2017 01:09 PM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
LofT, just curious- does the LC openly discourage people from reading or posting on this site?.
Hey Kumbaya,

Others on this forum will probably have a better answer for you. I can only speak to my experience.

There are really two ways to answer this question.

1. No, they do not openly discourage people from reading/posting on this site. I doubt the site is blocked on LSM church networks, and no one will be monitoring your web searches.

2. Yes, I was told by multiple people, across multiple localities, including church elder and full timers NOT to read stuff on the internet. They all called it poison. It made such an impression on me (as it was so clearly communicated) that I decided to heed their warning during my time at the church. My time with the church was intentionally dedicated to understanding and following their flow - which I did with fidelity until it was blatantly obvious that Witness Lee and the LSM are a farce. One member aptly calls it a "personality cult".

It is kind of like the point about being forced to buy HWMR. They didn't need to force me to purchase - I forked over my own money without anyone asking me to. BUT it was understood that in order to participate, fellowship, "prophesy", and interact with other members - you had to get a booklet. And everyone would say (publicly) how great and how much they "enjoyed" reading the books. Poorly written, devoid of Gods spirit, theologically questionable, and overall just an unenjoyable read. But in public, you say how great it was. That is how the game is played.

I am fortunate that I left the LSM churches without wounds (unlike many others on this site). My experience there was actually very pleasant. I knew all the right people and all the right people liked me. I was good material. I guess that is why some people stay, they are made to feel important, special, smart, spiritually mature, bigger and better than those in "poor degraded Christianity" (especially those nasty catholics ). I think what attracted people to me was Christ's Spirit within - a perfectly flawed believer made whole through the blood of Jesus. Just a regular dude, comfortable in his own skin, and willing to be the same person when talking to an elder or the janitor.

The Lord led my steps. May he continue to heal you and lead you closer to his grace, mercy, and truth.
12-16-2017 12:15 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya,

You are confusing finding comfort and solace with healing.

Healing requires a process that eventually leads one to another side and it often takes time. Yet, though observing many years, I do not see that here. One is not convincingly healed if they become belligerent and irritated when a reminder of their pain or discomfort makes an appearance. Nor is finding a like minded crowd or a group of sympathizers an indication of healing. Most likely just the opposite will be the case.

Drake
my healing is (for lack of a better word) "all-encompassing", personal, and my own unique journey. I'm navigating it as I see fit.

I should have clarified, I apologize.

I'm on a journey of trying to heal and this forum is a piece in that puzzle.
12-16-2017 12:01 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio>”For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.”

Ohio,

I rarely respond to your posts because of their oft vitriolic character. However, your post below was a reasoned response so I’ll give it go.

First, if you and others would respond to absurd statements like the alleged tithing of 10% income to LSM then I wouldn’t feel compelled to do it. Since, fellow posters rarely step up to challenge those absurdities, then I do. That may give the impression that I avoid a central argument in preference for a selected argument and thereby i get accused of “dishonesty”. Fact is, honesty cannot be had in a conversation while absurd allegations are used as part of someone’s argument. Absurdities distract from what could be a reasonable conversation with differences because they impose upon others the assumption that the absurdity is valid. So, as long as a poster insists on absurdities I am content to expose the absurdity, not because I am dishonest, but because no reasonable conversation can be had while the absurdity stands.

Now, to your point quoted above. I feel zero pressure to buy books... they are mostly available online. Perhaps decades ago before the internet provided fluid access to the ministry or before the books were available through Amazon then there was an interest in making sure the local churches had access to all up to date speaking and were on the same page. I understand that because the ministry is not a free for all. For me, it is not a question of liberty of the Spirit as we all can read whatever we want as individuals. It is, as with any ministry, your purpose, your mission, and your calling.

Allow me this example. I like C.S. Lewis. I read a lot of him. I like the parallels in the Chronicles of Narnia in much the same way as I like those in Bunyan’s Pilgrims Progress and Holy War. No one tells me what I can and cannot read personally. I have all the freedom in the world, restricted only by the Spirit, to follow my conscience in what I ingest. However, the freedoms I enjoy as an individual do not transfer to the meetings of the church, else there would be complete and utter chaos. There would be disorder and punching the air. I do not impose my individual liberty in the Spirit onto the rest of the brothers and sisters in the meetings of the church. I do not have the liberty before the Lord to occupy others time by reading the Voyage of the Dawn Treader in the meetings. Why? Simply, because that is not how the Lord is building up the Body of Christ in that setting. You will say, that is an extreme example because no one is advocating reading Narnia in the meetings. Okay, but that is not any different than reading G.H. Lang in the meetings..... a point of contention in the history of the local churches that is counter to the vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches. Those localities that are contentious about that can do their own thing and have for that and other reasons.

Therefore, Brother Ohio, everything you describe are perfectly consistent with those following a mission, not seeking mammon. Be it the ministry that builds up the Body of Christ, FTT, encouragement to attend conferences, feasts, trainings, all those to my reckoning are part of the reason why LSM even exists. If not for that then they are just another Christian publisher.

Thanks for the conversation.

Drake

Fair enough.

But can you recognize the abuse that LSM has dolled out in the past and spiritual/emotional dangers of having a business so closely tied to a group of believers?

How much money would it really cost the church to use an outside publisher vs. owning a publishing company? Would the cost be worth it to avoid all the pain its caused to some of the saints?

It would definitely keep things in check....

So why haven't they done this? Is it because of money, control, possibly both?? Why haven't they used an outside publisher, in your opinion? Also, do you think that LSM has appropriately handled/corrected the issues it's had in the past with abuse and money mismanagement? I'm assuming LSM believes it has (or tells the saints this), bc its common knowledge at this point the illegal activity with daystar and loans between LSM and churches, etc.

I'm just curious as to what steps of accountability they've taken to ensure that this kind of illegal and spiritually abusive behavior won't happen again.

Any insight on that and can you recognize that it's a very critical concern?
12-16-2017 12:00 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya,

You are confusing finding comfort and solace with healing.

Healing requires a process that eventually leads one to another side and it often takes time. Yet, though observing many years, I do not see that here. One is not convincingly healed if they become belligerent and irritated when a reminder of their pain or discomfort makes an appearance. Nor is finding a like minded crowd or a group of sympathizers an indication of healing. Most likely just the opposite will be the case.

Drake
If Kumbaya was in a difficult situation, and she came to your meeting in tears and then smiled afterwards, would you then advise her about "confusing finding comfort and solace with healing," and then warn her about entering a "like minded crowd or a group of sympathizers?"

I didn't think so.

.
12-16-2017 11:52 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio>”For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.”

Ohio,

I rarely respond to your posts because of their oft vitriolic character. However, your post below was a reasoned response so I’ll give it go.

First, if you and others would respond to absurd statements like the alleged tithing of 10% income to LSM then I wouldn’t feel compelled to do it. Since, fellow posters rarely step up to challenge those absurdities, then I do. That may give the impression that I avoid a central argument in preference for a selected argument and thereby i get accused of “dishonesty”. Fact is, honesty cannot be had in a conversation while absurd allegations are used as part of someone’s argument. Absurdities distract from what could be a reasonable conversation with differences because they impose upon others the assumption that the absurdity is valid. So, as long as a poster insists on absurdities I am content to expose the absurdity, not because I am dishonest, but because no reasonable conversation can be had while the absurdity stands.

Now, to your point quoted above. I feel zero pressure to buy books... they are mostly available online. Perhaps decades ago before the internet provided fluid access to the ministry or before the books were available through Amazon then there was an interest in making sure the local churches had access to all up to date speaking and were on the same page. I understand that because the ministry is not a free for all. For me, it is not a question of liberty of the Spirit as we all can read whatever we want as individuals. It is, as with any ministry, your purpose, your mission, and your calling.

Allow me this example. I like C.S. Lewis. I read a lot of him. I like the parallels in the Chronicles of Narnia in much the same way as I like those in Bunyan’s Pilgrims Progress and Holy War. No one tells me what I can and cannot read personally. I have all the freedom in the world, restricted only by the Spirit, to follow my conscience in what I ingest. However, the freedoms I enjoy as an individual do not transfer to the meetings of the church, else there would be complete and utter chaos. There would be disorder and punching the air. I do not impose my individual liberty in the Spirit onto the rest of the brothers and sisters in the meetings of the church. I do not have the liberty before the Lord to occupy others time by reading the Voyage of the Dawn Treader in the meetings. Why? Simply, because that is not how the Lord is building up the Body of Christ in that setting. You will say, that is an extreme example because no one is advocating reading Narnia in the meetings. Okay, but that is not any different than reading G.H. Lang in the meetings..... a point of contention in the history of the local churches that is counter to the vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches. Those localities that are contentious about that can do their own thing and have for that and other reasons.

Therefore, Brother Ohio, everything you describe are perfectly consistent with those following a mission, not seeking mammon. Be it the ministry that builds up the Body of Christ, FTT, encouragement to attend conferences, feasts, trainings, all those to my reckoning are part of the reason why LSM even exists. If not for that then they are just another Christian publisher.

Thanks for the conversation.

Drake
You really jumped on my mis-speaking.

Fair enough.

I admit, I was ASSUMING that the saints tithe 10%. I said that bc I really do think the saints (as a whole) in the LC are pure hearted. Maybe they have a child-like quality due to unspoken pressure of reducing critical thinking and maybe the LC attracts only certain personalities now that have a tendency to not question the direction they're given but either way, I truly believe there are genuine and faithful believers in the LC.

My problem is with LSM and the blending brothers. Those are the wolves, the saints (in my opinion) innocent sheep. Nothing wrong with being called that. The Lord is our SHEPHARD. There's a reason for the parable of the wolf in sheep's clothing. Because it happens.

So, I retract my statement that the saints give 10% of their income their whole lives.

I was assuming, given my high opinion of their genuineness and sincere Christian lifestyle, that they would follow this practice without question.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But I know the hearts of many people in the LC and it is genuinely generous.

So, my problem is the exploitation from LSM with dealing with people who I believe are generous in their tithing.

But you're right, I don't KNOW that the saints tithe 10%. I only assumed.

Whatever tithes are given though, LSM does receive part of it from my understanding based on things I've read/heard.

If you have proof otherwise, please let me know.
12-16-2017 11:39 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I'm already healing just knowing I'm not crazy and there are others who feel the same way as I do.

You can't take away my healing nor do I have to provide proof of it.

If anything, you are helping solidify my feeling that people in LC (as a whole) can't be reasoned with.
Kumbaya,

You are confusing finding comfort and solace with healing.

Healing requires a process that eventually leads one to another side and it often takes time. Yet, though observing many years, I do not see that here. One is not convincingly healed if they become belligerent and irritated when a reminder of their pain or discomfort makes an appearance. Nor is finding a like minded crowd or a group of sympathizers an indication of healing. Most likely just the opposite will be the case.

Drake
12-16-2017 11:37 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
I’m reminded that true healing isn’t necessarily found here or in any one church. It is found in Jesus Christ the Lord. Hopefully those who frequent these boards can help point us back to “The Great Physician” for curing our ills.
I'm getting there, I've had to recognize that damage is something that happens to body, soul, and spirit. Maybe just my approach but I think the healing is different for all three parts.

Part of my healing is just trying to understand why my parents fell into this lifestyle and raised us the way they did. Understanding the history and turns of the LC in the 80's has really helped me have some grace towards the whole situation.

It's so full circle to read John Ingalls account and hear about "the new way" and FTTT bc we actually moved to Taiwan when my dad went to the training there.

I'm finding myself seeing both sides of the situation and recognize how it influenced me in my life (negatively and some positively too) so that I can be more self aware and conscious going forward

Also, I do want to go on with the Lord but I'm re-learning how to think about things and need to be in a place where my guard is down. Right now, its not. I'm getting there.

I'll just say, spiritual abuse is a real thing.
12-16-2017 11:28 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
I’m thankful for this place for discussions like these. While they often get people riled up, to say the least. For decades they couldn’t happen in public without LSM or DCP lawsuit.

Kumbaya, welcome to a place to speak your concerns and seek healing.
As you can see, you are far from being alone. But, some won’t agree. Don’t mind Evangelical, Drake, or other LSM church defenders too much. If we had unanimity, discussions wouldn’t be as useful for “sharpening” us.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...rbs%2027:17-19
That might be my favorite verse for a while, thank you for your encouragement!
12-16-2017 11:22 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

[QUOTE=Ohio;67529]Dear Drake,

We are obviously contemporaries, since we both came into the LC as college students back in the 70's. I migrated twice to startup new LC's, which proved my commitment to the Recovery.

When it comes to all things LC/LSM, let me simply say, I Know What You Know. Sure, some of the people and the details differ, but we lived thru the same history with the same ministry. You can't fool me, and I can't fool you. I know when you are "lawyering" and "wordsmithing" with the facts of history.

You could really help your credibility here with a little honesty.

For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.[/QUOTE

wow- thank you. I wonder if there will be a day when I can read things like this and not feel heartbroken. Knowing my family and friends are still in this very hard to accept.
12-16-2017 11:21 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Ohio>”So is Kumbaya's comment really false? Did it really demand my correction?

Dear brother Drake, to be honest with you, when you dismiss the claims that ex-members have suffered, you do yourself a disservice. It would be far better for your cause to make admissions concerning the serious failures of the past, rather than deny them. ”

Brother Ohio,

Thanks for your response.

To your first point above I don’t think correction is demanded... but perspective would have been helpful. Not for my sake, but for hers. She opened this thread asking questions of clarification. Why not share your view.. that tithing in your experience was not a legalistic thing. Perhaps that alone would have given her the understanding that what she thought was tithing was something different. Or your experience as Treasurer could have provided an understanding that local church members do not tithe directly to LSM 10% of their income for life. Lacking such perspectives from someone she trusts she now emphatically declares, just a few short posts later from her original inquiry, that local church members do indeed tithe 10% of their income to LSM for life. Now, let’s assume her dad told her that and that is how that idea got to percolating... then, she could easily have said just that and avoided making the general allegation that since her dad said it then it must be true everywhere because I have four decades of experience that refutes that .... and you do too. In fact, had she said her father told her that and that is why she believed it none of us could find fault in the simple innocence of a daughter that takes as gospel what her father told her even if she might have misunderstood what he meant. Yet, I usually engage, predictably, when someone makes an assertion that goes well beyond their means to know and when I have information to the contrary.

I’ll tell you something along this line of thought that touched me recently in this forum. It had been my observation that this forum will embrace most every person’s rhetoric as long as they oppose Witness Lee. Maybe not embrace the teaching itself but allow the unchristian narrative to run unchecked. I’ve mentioned this before. I saw it happening again, and then Nell posted a note on “a line in the sand.” Her thought was that disagree as you might about many things, but there are things we will never compromise or cross the line in matters of our Christian faith, etc. Something like that. Anyway, I was deeply touched by her message and though we probably disagree on many things I was 200% all in with Nell on that. Where do we draw the line even if and when we disagree?

So Brother Ohio, if the question had gone to why did the local churches give to DCP then that would have been a different conversation. Certainly, different than everyone tithing to LSM 10% of their income for life.

Thanks
Drake
12-16-2017 11:16 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Take a deep breath Drake, your true colors are showing through again.

Feel free to re-read our conversation. I'll accept your decision to change the entire premise of our convo and let it die. You've made it clear in previous posts that you are against sharing your locality - and as I've said before - I respect that decision and have not asked for that in any way in this conversation. With 20-30 lurkers on this site at any given time, someone within the "church" is bound to find out... that will hurt your standing in the LSM - no doubt about it.
LofT, just curious- does the LC openly discourage people from reading or posting on this site?

I find it interesting if they discourage it....

When someone is innocent of wrongdoings, they are an open book- ready to defend and explain any situation and uncover every detail.

When, they are guilty- the opposite is true.

If the local church wasn't guilty of spiritual abuse (not to mention illegal activity but I won't go there), wouldn't they be on this site defending/providing proof of their innocence?

Why would they discourage others from reading unless they were afraid of their dirty laundry being aired?

BTW, Scientology/cult leaders do the same thing to their members. Everything from just verbal pressure to not read the material for FEAR (red flag of emotional abuse-FEAR TACTICS!) of being "poisoned" (oh-what a horrible word!) to outright control of the information coming in.

Of course, the latter is only done in the FTT. ugh.
12-16-2017 11:08 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT>”Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?”

LofT,

I did not say several churches do not purchase materials from LSM. As far, as I know every church does. I said, THE PREMISE, LSM does not force local churches to buy books even if they could not sell them to the saints, as was alleged. Furthermore, LSM does not even force members of the local churches to buy books such as HWFMR even though as a publisher they have rights to enforce it. Instead, they will allow copies to be made under circumstances as a further proof point that they are not after your money. And to refute the rest of the fake news money report that members of the local church are required to pay 10% of their income to LSM for the rest of their lives, well, if anyone believes that they will gobble up anything.

Your request for the name of a locality as a reference is completely irrelevant since I have observed these matters in EVERY place I have lived and attended. You confirmed the same with your own experience. No further details about a locality (where I lived) are needed to prove the point.

Drake
You don't have to enforce anything when people do it without questioning.

(*mic drop*)

And its been documented in this thread what LSM does when churches stop buying LSM material in the past so, you don't have an argument here.
12-16-2017 11:02 AM
kumbaya
Re: copies made in the past was a great offense to "the office"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Started in Cleveland, then moved to Columbus, then ...
Ah! Were you around when Mansfield came in? That was a WEIRD situation, lol
12-16-2017 11:00 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
You are changing the premise of our conversation. We are not talking about making Xerox copies - I agreed with you that this happens.

You’ve been in the LSM churches for 4 decades. Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?

Also - I started with a simple question, not making an argument. But your continual sidestep and diversion is starting to make me wonder. Especially because you stated it was so widespread that my question was irrelevant.

Maybe I’ll start a thread so others can jump in?
I fully support this post. Can we all just answer the questions that are asked? I feel we are, Drake- you're not.
12-16-2017 10:57 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>”So again, we're trying to heal and connect. Well, I am. What are you trying to do? You don't care to heal from pain/connect with like minded people/provide any evidence that our experiences aren't valid or the norm......so, how is that showing "care?"”

Kumbaya,

Without a doubt you will “connect”. Healing? That is another matter altogether.

What evidence did you find here that indicates this is a place to “heal”?

Drake
I'm already healing just knowing I'm not crazy and there are others who feel the same way as I do.

You can't take away my healing nor do I have to provide proof of it.

If anything, you are helping solidify my feeling that people in LC (as a whole) can't be reasoned with until they learn to see/accept that there are strong coercive persuasion tactics implemented in the LC and getting out of that mindset is a hard and difficult process.
12-16-2017 10:54 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>”But, they are OUR experiences. You have your own but you can't dismiss mine,”

Kumbaya,

That is correct. It works both ways.

Drake
ok, multiple times I've said that if you have a different experience- then thats great! Then I just made the point that most of us didn't have that experience so you were in the minority However, I still stated that if your experience was different then that was good!

How is that dismissing your experience? I was validating it, if anything!

The reason we're discussing it is because we all have had similar negative experiences and while its good to know that everyones experience (as you're saying yours was) isn't bad, most others on this board DID have a bad experience.

So, you have to recognize that the minority, or-exception to the rule, doesn't just get to be confrontational about what we're saying happened to us bc obviously, we wouldn't be here and all agree that there is a negative situation in the LC if we didn't all have bad experiences.

Again, lol- I'm not one the get worked up but I don't think I can keep going back and forth with you unless you keep it on topic and logical.
12-16-2017 10:48 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Now, to your point quoted above. I feel zero pressure to buy books... they are mostly available online... Allow me this example. I like C.S. Lewis. I read a lot of him. I like the parallels in the Chronicles of Narnia in much the same way as I like those in Bunyan’s Pilgrims Progress and Holy War. No one tells me what I can and cannot read personally. I have all the freedom in the world, restricted only by the Spirit, to follow my conscience in what I ingest.

However, the freedoms I enjoy as an individual do not transfer to the meetings of the church, else there would be complete and utter chaos. There would be disorder and punching the air. I do not impose my individual liberty in the Spirit onto the rest of the brothers and sisters in the meetings of the church. I do not have the liberty before the Lord to occupy others time by reading the Voyage of the Dawn Treader in the meetings. Why? Simply, because that is not how the Lord is building up the Body of Christ in that setting. You will say, that is an extreme example because no one is advocating reading Narnia in the meetings. Okay, but that is not any different than reading G.H. Lang in the meetings..... a point of contention in the history of the local churches that is counter to the vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches. Those localities that are contentious about that can do their own thing and have for that and other reasons.
Brother Drake, I agree with your liberty to read as you prefer. I'm being totally honest. I'm glad you have outside interests. Since I have long had difficulty reading with my eyes, I have always envied those who could read to their heart's content.

But I disagree with your conclusions. No one has ever advocated opening the meetings to every members' reading list. But your own mission statement (Nee's TNCCL) places church elders in ministry oversight. They alone in prayer and fellowship must decide what to minister according to their church's needs. If the elders decide that parts of Lang's book can benefit their church during a time of crisis, then they must reserve the liberty, and even the necessity, to minister according to that. No outsiders, let alone a publisher, should interfere with their God-ordained responsibility!

Regarding the "vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches," can this ever contradict scripture? Can this "vision" be used to coverup unrighteousness and slander internal whistleblowers? And for those initially caught by the teachings in Nee's book TNCCL, should not their concerns of deviation from established practice also be heard?
12-16-2017 10:45 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
10% tithing is not taught - the tithe was an old testament concept and one of legality. If any are giving 10% in a legalistic way, that's their business really, and even some might give in the hope of getting a double fold triple special blessing seed, I don't know.
the point is LSM gets part of the tithes. never ever said that is was taught. Christians give in good faith and I believe there is a situation of exploitation with what the leading ones know the members will give and their plans with LSM.
12-16-2017 10:27 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio,

I rarely respond to your posts because of their oft vitriolic character. However, your post below was a reasoned response so I’ll give it go.
Thanks for responding Drake. I'll try to respond in a manner suitable for you.

Now, while I am open to critique, on this point I have to share my point of view. You regularly dismiss my comments as an "old broken record," but your grievance above should not go unanswered. Vitriol is defined as words "filled with bitter criticism or malice, caustic, scathing." I harbor malice towards no one, especially you, whom I may not even know. I admit to criticism, but not bitterness; rather I prefer to restrict myself to sarcasm. It is often an effective means of communication, even used in the Bible. Sorry if it sounds like "vitriol," but I don't mean to sound that way, though I do intend to be candid and pointed.

You didn't like it when I did not respond to exaggerated claims like "LSM exacts 10%" of members money. I think Kumbaya said that. Perhaps she heard that from her Dad. I don't know. Neither do I know every detail of every LC. I was Treasurer in a LC for 10 years, and I do know that we were instructed to send money to LSM/DCP every month. Whether we could pay the Mortgage or not, DCP needed their money. The money was used for their legal expenses, yet I Cor. 6 explicitly tells us NOT TO SUE. So this was a conflict for our LC, and I assume other LC's also.

So is Kumbaya's comment really false? Did it really demand my correction?

Dear brother Drake, to be honest with you, when you dismiss the claims that ex-members have suffered, you do yourself a disservice. It would be far better for your cause to make admissions concerning the serious failures of the past, rather than deny them.

In these last days the Lord is shining a spotlight on all segments of society, including His own.
12-16-2017 08:28 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Ohio>”For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.”

Ohio,

I rarely respond to your posts because of their oft vitriolic character. However, your post below was a reasoned response so I’ll give it go.

First, if you and others would respond to absurd statements like the alleged tithing of 10% income to LSM then I wouldn’t feel compelled to do it. Since, fellow posters rarely step up to challenge those absurdities, then I do. That may give the impression that I avoid a central argument in preference for a selected argument and thereby i get accused of “dishonesty”. Fact is, honesty cannot be had in a conversation while absurd allegations are used as part of someone’s argument. Absurdities distract from what could be a reasonable conversation with differences because they impose upon others the assumption that the absurdity is valid. So, as long as a poster insists on absurdities I am content to expose the absurdity, not because I am dishonest, but because no reasonable conversation can be had while the absurdity stands.

Now, to your point quoted above. I feel zero pressure to buy books... they are mostly available online. Perhaps decades ago before the internet provided fluid access to the ministry or before the books were available through Amazon then there was an interest in making sure the local churches had access to all up to date speaking and were on the same page. I understand that because the ministry is not a free for all. For me, it is not a question of liberty of the Spirit as we all can read whatever we want as individuals. It is, as with any ministry, your purpose, your mission, and your calling.

Allow me this example. I like C.S. Lewis. I read a lot of him. I like the parallels in the Chronicles of Narnia in much the same way as I like those in Bunyan’s Pilgrims Progress and Holy War. No one tells me what I can and cannot read personally. I have all the freedom in the world, restricted only by the Spirit, to follow my conscience in what I ingest. However, the freedoms I enjoy as an individual do not transfer to the meetings of the church, else there would be complete and utter chaos. There would be disorder and punching the air. I do not impose my individual liberty in the Spirit onto the rest of the brothers and sisters in the meetings of the church. I do not have the liberty before the Lord to occupy others time by reading the Voyage of the Dawn Treader in the meetings. Why? Simply, because that is not how the Lord is building up the Body of Christ in that setting. You will say, that is an extreme example because no one is advocating reading Narnia in the meetings. Okay, but that is not any different than reading G.H. Lang in the meetings..... a point of contention in the history of the local churches that is counter to the vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches. Those localities that are contentious about that can do their own thing and have for that and other reasons.

Therefore, Brother Ohio, everything you describe are perfectly consistent with those following a mission, not seeking mammon. Be it the ministry that builds up the Body of Christ, FTT, encouragement to attend conferences, feasts, trainings, all those to my reckoning are part of the reason why LSM even exists. If not for that then they are just another Christian publisher.

Thanks for the conversation.

Drake
12-16-2017 07:14 AM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

I’m reminded that true healing isn’t necessarily found here or in any one church. It is found in Jesus Christ the Lord. Hopefully those who frequent these boards can help point us back to “The Great Physician” for curing our ills.
12-16-2017 06:27 AM
JJ
Re: First Post kumbaya

I’m thankful for this place for discussions like these. While they often get people riled up, to say the least. For decades they couldn’t happen in public without LSM or DCP lawsuit.

Kumbaya, welcome to a place to speak your concerns and seek healing.
As you can see, you are far from being alone. But, some won’t agree. Don’t mind Evangelical, Drake, or other LSM church defenders too much. If we had unanimity, discussions wouldn’t be as useful for “sharpening” us.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...rbs%2027:17-19
12-16-2017 06:27 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Apparently, I missed the memo that went out about tithing to LSM. Could be a problem since I now owe over forty years of back tithes to LSM!

Drake
Dear Drake,

We are obviously contemporaries, since we both came into the LC as college students back in the 70's. I migrated twice to startup new LC's, which proved my commitment to the Recovery.

When it comes to all things LC/LSM, let me simply say, I Know What You Know. Sure, some of the people and the details differ, but we lived thru the same history with the same ministry. You can't fool me, and I can't fool you. I know when you are "lawyering" and "wordsmithing" with the facts of history.

You could really help your credibility here with a little honesty.

For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.
12-16-2017 05:42 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Take a deep breath Drake, your true colors are showing through again.

Feel free to re-read our conversation. I'll accept your decision to change the entire premise of our convo and let it die. You've made it clear in previous posts that you are against sharing your locality - and as I've said before - I respect that decision and have not asked for that in any way in this conversation. With 20-30 lurkers on this site at any given time, someone within the "church" is bound to find out... that will hurt your standing in the LSM - no doubt about it.
LofT,

It is not my standing in the local churches or LSM that matters here. Your derogatory innuendo notwithstanding, read the private and if that doesn’t satisfy your suspicions then I got nothing else for you on this topic.

Drake
12-16-2017 05:32 AM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT>”Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?”

LofT,

I did not say several churches do not purchase materials from LSM. As far, as I know every church does. I said, THE PREMISE, LSM does not force local churches to buy books even if they could not sell them to the saints, as was alleged. Furthermore, LSM does not even force members of the local churches to buy books such HWFMR even though as a publisher they have rights to enforce it. Instead, they will allow copies to be made under circumstances as a further proof point that they are not after your money. And to refute the rest of the fake news money report that members of the local church are required to pay 10% of their income to LSM for the rest of their lives, well, if anyone believes that they will gobble up anything.

Your request for the name of a locality as a reference is completely irrelevant since I have observed these matters in EVERY place I have lived and attended. You confirmed the same with your own experience. No further details about a locality (where I lived) are needed to prove the point.

Drake
Take a deep breath Drake, your true colors are showing through again.

Feel free to re-read our conversation. I'll accept your decision to change the entire premise of our convo and let it die. You've made it clear in previous posts that you are against sharing your locality - and as I've said before - I respect that decision and have not asked for that in any way in this conversation. With 20-30 lurkers on this site at any given time, someone within the "church" is bound to find out... that will hurt your standing in the LSM - no doubt about it.
12-16-2017 05:16 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Duplicate.
12-16-2017 05:06 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

LofT>”Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?”

LofT,

I did not say several churches do not purchase materials from LSM. As far, as I know every church does. I said, THE PREMISE, LSM does not force local churches to buy books even if they could not sell them to the saints, as was alleged. Furthermore, LSM does not even force members of the local churches to buy books such as HWFMR even though as a publisher they have rights to enforce it. Instead, they will allow copies to be made under circumstances as a further proof point that they are not after your money. And to refute the rest of the fake news money report that members of the local church are required to pay 10% of their income to LSM for the rest of their lives, well, if anyone believes that they will gobble up anything.

Your request for the name of a locality as a reference is completely irrelevant since I have observed these matters in EVERY place I have lived and attended. You confirmed the same with your own experience. No further details about a locality (where I lived) are needed to prove the point.

Drake
12-16-2017 04:14 AM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake
You are changing the premise of our conversation. We are not talking about making Xerox copies - I agreed with you that this happens.

You’ve been in the LSM churches for 4 decades. Claiming it to be widespread fact that several churches do not purchase materials from the LSM (and only to the LSM) and then distribute to their members. You don’t need to provide a locality that you’ve lived in. Where did you jump to that conclusion?

Also - I started with a simple question, not making an argument. But your continual sidestep and diversion is starting to make me wonder. Especially because you stated it was so widespread that my question was irrelevant.

Maybe I’ll start a thread so others can jump in?
12-16-2017 03:58 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
10% tithing is not taught - the tithe was an old testament concept and one of legality. If any are giving 10% in a legalistic way, that's their business really, and even some might give in the hope of getting a double fold triple special blessing seed, I don't know.
Perhaps LSM operatives collect W2 forms of local church members, determine the 10% they are required to tithe (for the rest of their lives), and then somehow (this part is not exactly clear to me yet) collect the tithe from the local churches either by rifling through the non-descript offering boxes in the back corner of the meeting hall or some other yet to be defined collection mechanism like a QR code for an LSM mobile app.

Apparently, I missed the memo that went out about tithing to LSM. Could be a problem since I now owe over forty years of back tithes to LSM!

Drake
12-16-2017 03:33 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya>”So again, we're trying to heal and connect. Well, I am. What are you trying to do? You don't care to heal from pain/connect with like minded people/provide any evidence that our experiences aren't valid or the norm......so, how is that showing "care?"”

Kumbaya,

Without a doubt you will “connect”. Healing? That is another matter altogether.

What evidence did you find here that indicates this is a place to “heal”?

Drake
12-16-2017 03:26 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya>”But, they are OUR experiences. You have your own but you can't dismiss mine,”

Kumbaya,

That is correct. It works both ways.

Drake
12-15-2017 11:34 PM
Evangelical
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
they get a portion of their tithes, yes- they do!!!!!!!!

I'm assuming the saints tithe 10%, some more- some less.
10% tithing is not taught - the tithe was an old testament concept and one of legality. If any are giving 10% in a legalistic way, that's their business really, and even some might give in the hope of getting a double fold triple special blessing seed, I don't know.
12-15-2017 11:28 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>”If you don't agree with any of this (with all due respect)...why are you on here?”

Kumbaya, it is simple. I am here because I care.

Drake
If you're going to respond to my posts, would you mind responding to ALL the questions I've asked you? bc if you're going to pick and choose, its not a logical or fair argument.

Which you're showing to be a true enforcer of. (If you take that as bait I won't respond).

So.... debate rule #101 (sorry-can't help myself)....

I've made it clear why I care to be on a forum like this- to heal and connect.
I mentioned it seems like you don't need that and you're just disrupting said healing/connection by disagreeing with every experience we had.

But, they are OUR experiences. You have your own but you can't dismiss mine,

So, I told you the reason that I "care" and that I'm on this board but it seems like if you "care" you should go find a board where you can either reasonably provide actual proof or evidence that our experiences aren't the norm or go connect with people who are like minded as you.

So again, we're trying to heal and connect. Well, I am. What are you trying to do? You don't care to heal from pain/connect with like minded people/provide any evidence that our experiences aren't valid or the norm......so, how is that showing "care?"

Do I need to tell you that you're coming off as a bully or do you already know that?
12-15-2017 11:18 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake
bc everyone has a hard time believing you dude.
12-15-2017 11:17 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LSM does not get 10% of a person’s income.

Drake
they get a portion of their tithes, yes- they do!!!!!!!!

I'm assuming the saints tithe 10%, some more- some less.
12-15-2017 11:15 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>”If you don't agree with any of this (with all due respect)...why are you on here?”

Kumbaya, it is simple. I am here because I care.

Drake
you care about.... what?

you're on a board where we're all trying to communicate and heal and you're not trying to do that.

What are you trying to do?
12-15-2017 11:12 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT>”Please humor me, which locality could you use as an example. ”

LofT,

Why do you ask?

Seriously.

Drake
Answering a question with a question? I'll answer it for you.

No one has seen the behavior that you're describing so they would like examples or evidence. Least of These agreed there were Xerox copies. His question to you was, "What locality was not required to purchase material from LSM?"

We all agree that the purchased material could be copied with a copy machine. I think we're all on the same page now, lol.


Now, are you going to answer the question or not?

Which locality are you using as your example that wasn't required to purchase material from LSM?
12-15-2017 08:24 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
I find your questioning very interesting Drake.

It was a simple question that continues to be drawn out needlessly.

The real question is....Why not answer?
Think about it LofT. I have stated that EVERY place I have lived used xerox copies. You have agreed because you have seen it yourself. Therefore, what purpose would disclosing where I lived serve to add anything to your or my argument?

Drake
12-15-2017 08:14 PM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT>”Please humor me, which locality could you use as an example. ”

LofT,

Why do you ask?

Seriously.

Drake
I find your questioning very interesting Drake.

It was a simple question that continues to be drawn out needlessly.

The real question is....Why not answer?
12-15-2017 07:41 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Ohio,

Are you able to cite the source on this? Or did you hear 1st/2nd hand?
I heard him say iit. Don't know if it is in a book.

I do remember that it was after a "storm." It was Lee's way of diffusing legitimate accusations by the saints. It was also spoken at a time when I was completely sold out for the program, back in the late 80's.
12-15-2017 07:30 PM
Ohio
Re: copies made in the past was a great offense to "the office"

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I'll be sure to look for that on my family's bookshelf. I'm sure its there along with all the others!

Oh wow, thank you for this info- If you don't mind me asking, what locality were you in?
Started in Cleveland, then moved to Columbus, then ...
12-15-2017 06:53 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

LofT>”Please humor me, which locality could you use as an example. ”

LofT,

Why do you ask?

Seriously.

Drake
12-15-2017 06:50 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya>”If you don't agree with any of this (with all due respect)...why are you on here?”

Kumbaya, it is simple. I am here because I care.

Drake
12-15-2017 06:42 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I said, 10% of a persons INCOME.
LSM does not get 10% of a person’s income.

Drake
12-15-2017 03:41 PM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
This reminds me of W. Lee's statement, "I never controlled anybody, I can't even control a mosquito."
Ohio,

Are you able to cite the source on this? Or did you hear 1st/2nd hand?
12-15-2017 03:28 PM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake
Right, I get your point Drake.


I asked "Is there a particular locality that does not pay the LSM (and only LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation?"

You said:
Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

I then agreed that I have also seen xerox copies.

You said several do not pay the LSM (and only the LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation. You later indicated that this was so widespread that my question was irrelevant.

Please humor me, which locality could you use as an example.

Please don't respond saying that no one is "forced" to buy... that comment is irrelevant to this particular discussion.
12-15-2017 03:26 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>”So what if you do if you'll get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.”

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s life.

Is that what you meant? If not, what did you mean?

Drake
If you don't agree with any of this (with all due respect)...why are you on here? I'm personally just trying to heal and move forward and I do want to make sure I have correct info but it seems like from the beginning you're halting that by questioning my legitimacy right off the bat. It was rude but I let it go.

I'm trying to heal and get answers and having a debate with you isn't what I'm going to do anymore. You don't have to feel this way but I just want to get some healing and you're being confrontational about every single post on here.

I get adding some balance and providing accurate facts but you don't have any to provide. Or examples. So, I'd be happy to see that but being confrontational just for the sake of it isn't cool.

If you can back up what you say, show some proof. We're all just saying our experiences and we all seem to have the similar ones. if yours was different, awesome, but you could acknowledge that you are, in fact, in the minority and the chances of us making this up is slim.

If I was going to be a part of a forum where I was the minority I'd probably have some proof or something that would validate my arguments.

I just appreciate a logical and respectful debate but you're not exactly doing that when you refute whats being said here....its just throwing off the conversation and making it difficult to communicate with the people we want to communicate with.

Maybe you had an AWESOME experience in the Recovery and nothing bad ever happened to you. Its possible and I think thats awesome!!

But at least acknowledge that many of us have been hurt and are hurting. And your stance of just being confrontational on everyones posts are just needless.

If you have proof, show it. If not, let us do our thing without throwing us off topic.

Please.
12-15-2017 03:07 PM
kumbaya
Re: copies made in the past was a great offense to "the office"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Every time I read this story I crack up!

Here's Bill Mallon from the Southeast. Humble and altruistic. Never was a more sincere minister. Struggling with all his heart to shepherd the saints, and work together with LSM; believing with all his heart that the leadership at LSM was the same.

Here's W. Lee's reprobate and profligate son Philip. By all accounts not even saved, yet placed in charge over all the other LC workers. The man was impetuous, molested sisters, regularly demeaned those around him, and a foul-mouthed drunk. Couldn't hold a job, yet W. Lee made him boss. Or should I say despot.

Bill Mallon was forced to fly all the way to Anaheim to apologize in order to keep in good standing. He did nothing wrong, but was publicly shamed into submission, Chinese style. He humbles himself before Philip Lee and acknowledges his wrongdoings. He looks up and Philip is snoring.

But dear brother Drake is fine with all this, because he has "seen the vision."

Read also the testimony of John So, the senior worker in Europe throughout the 70's and 80's, who was also accused of that vast global conspiracy with John Ingalls. When John was subjected to Philip's abuses, he decided instead to cut all ties with the Lee family. Witness Lee's response? Slander and smear his reputation before all. You can read his disgusting account in Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.
I'll be sure to look for that on my family's bookshelf. I'm sure its there along with all the others!

Oh wow, thank you for this info- If you don't mind me asking, what locality were you in?
12-15-2017 03:04 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>”So what if you do if you'll get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.”

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s life.

Is that what you meant? If not, what did you mean?

Drake
I said, 10% of a persons INCOME.
12-15-2017 02:52 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>”So what if you do if you'll get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.”

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s life.

Is that what you meant? If not, what did you mean?

Drake
tithing. 10%, LSM would get a cut of that plus all the training fees/expenses. It's a lifelong expense for that saint.

Now, I'm not claiming to know how much tithes go to LSM vs the LC- the lines are SO BLURRY, aren't they?

But, we know tithes have been used in the past to give out as a loan for WL's Daystar manufacturer. Yes, he paid it back to the church in Boston but he admitted borrowing 100K from the church in Boston to fund the "working brothers" or whatever they were called, who owned Phosphorous- the manufacturer for Daystar.

Yes, he repaid the church in Boston and made all these motorhomes with that money which he sold to Daystar, another company he owned that the saints invested money into.

So, he made the money by selling the motorhomes to Phosphorous, but when Daystar couldn't see them, who lost money then?

Did WL lose any? Or just the saints that invested?

Great work, minister of the age! It would be different if there were an open apology and not no much shame placed on others who disagreed.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be cynical.

Its just evil to me.

I am beyond saddened every day my family raised me like this and are still involved. I really am trying to heal and move on.

I've been reading a LITTLE on church history...I really like A.Z. Tozer. Wow....

It makes me wonder...

How much of WL's writings is actually WL? Not saying its not his words, but he wasn't the only person besides Watchmen Nee who focused on the experience of Christ.

I wish I had learned about that growing up!
12-15-2017 02:27 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Disgusting in my opinion.

I mentioned this to a “saint” or woman I know in the local church and she said, “well, the structure is messy but as long as you’re getting fed. Kitchens get messy when you make the food but the purpose is to eat.”
This forum does not exist because the LC's were a little "messy." I have been around diverse churches all my life, and they all are a little "messy." Humans are messy, as are families and kids. Pets too. Life is messy. We all know this, and for the most part, accept it.

But Witness Lee used expressions like these to coverup serious issues at LSM. "Nobody's perfect" and "everybody makes mistakes" are a couple more. Actually 99.9% of the discussions here are NOT about the "messy" kitchen in all of the LC's. In fact, most of the comments about the saints, elders, and LC's are all positive.

The blight in the Recovery is in Anaheim at LSM -- Lee's long history of unrighteousness and hurting people. You made the following observation --
Quote:
I really do blame the culture. Love love love until theres a disagreement and then shame, curse, and kick out.

I still have trouble putting the two behaviors together.
I too felt the same way. As I was leaving, there was this constant nagging in my head, "how could something so good become so bad?"

The Lord showed me one verse that helped. The Apostle Paul was fellowshiping with brothers for the last time, and was pouring out his heart to them (Acts 20) At one point he warned them and prophesied for the future church, "that from among you men (like Witness Lee) will rise up speaking perverted things to lure the disciples after themselves."

This is exactly what happened to us. Many of us watched it happen. I watched from a distance, and was constantly reassured that "everything was fine." Some went along with it, but others disagreed. Those who protested were "shamed, cursed, and kicked out," just like you said.

All the things you read here like only buying LSM books, all young people going to FTTA, Luther and Lee are MOTA's, poor poor Christianity, local ground of oneness, etc. etc. are all "perverted" teachings to draw us from Christ to Witness Lee.
12-15-2017 02:20 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya>”So what if you do if you'll get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.”

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s life.

Is that what you meant? If not, what did you mean?

Drake
12-15-2017 01:54 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake
I'm just taking a shot in the dark on this.

Not all the books are free, right?

Also, I was shown an example of a life study that was changed from the original publication to what was online.

I've also seen (in the Genesis life study) where WL says that most sisters have mental problems and think they should see a psychiatrist. But they just need the Lord.

WHUUUUUUUUUUT?

I don't know I can find the screenshot of that but I've got it, wonder if its online still. If they needed to "clean up" certain things in their publications to make them more "PC"- that seems like a great way to do it!

Like I said, shot in the dark. I just always overthink things. They do exert control so I'm looking for an alterior motive as to why...

My point is though, LSM is making money on trainings and all kinds of materials. Anyone who sets up a business for themselves gives out little freebies, sometimes a lot of them. Sometimes a ton of them. So what? If you do, you might get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.

Catch my drift?

Look, I know everyone in the LC isn't like this. So, stop using this model and people won't accuse you of doing it! it's not complicated to me. There are bad business practices, bad church practices, and certainly bad practices when it comes to mixing church and business.

The whole combination has caused SO MUCH PAIN....

How much would be different if the LC just hired a third party publisher from the beginning??????
12-15-2017 01:43 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Another "root" is the lust for power.
I don't get people like that. I've got my flaws but its not that. Maybe defiance? I've always been a questioner though. It's probably why I never fit in there.
12-15-2017 01:42 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>”I wasn't saying the churches force the saints to buy the material. I'm saying LSM forces the local churches to buy it, whether is sells to the saints of not. That's just what someone told me and I honestly hope I'm wrong and they had wrong information!”

Kumbaya, I can only share my experience. LSM does not force local churches to buy anything. For those that own their meeting hall they will often carry some of the books for the convenience of the saints but mostly books are sold online, on amazon, or on subscription. Some of the larger churches have bigger libraries, and they should to serve the needs of the saints.

I can’t speak to what someone told you but I can tell you after more than four decades in churches big and small, in many places near and far, those that own their meeting hall, those that rent, and those that have no meeting hall at all, I have never once observed LSM forcing local churches to buy books.

Drake
Ok, well I've been told there is an expectation. The thing is, there are spoken and unspoken "rules" organizations follow.

How do you think LSM would react if the churches stopped or slowed the funds for the LSM material?

And- here's the BIGGEST question of all and really, the MAIN ISSUE....

WHY IS A PUBLISHING COMPANY ENFORCING PRACTICES OF A LOCAL CHURCH??

Whether or not the churches are required to purchase or not, there is unspoken pressure. And I do believe I just read below all the ways it actually was enforced, but moving on to the real issue....

WHY WHY WHY should a publishing company determine what books a local church sells? How is this not enforcing control??

It's not a biblical practice. If you think it is- please tell me how!

How is this not exerting control (not even church but business control!) outside your own locality?
12-15-2017 01:32 PM
kumbaya
Re: No hint of Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Okay, sister kumbaya, I am glad to be corrected (according to the fact(s)....
Thank you, I'm going to read some of the letters. I've read John Ingalls..

Obviously there's no denying there was spiritual abuse especially at this level.

I know of several times my dad (who I know loved the Lord) would talk about people or say things that I remember to this day. It was almost "unlike him."

I really do blame the culture. Love love love until theres a disagreement and then shame, curse, and kick out.

I still have trouble putting the two behaviors together.
12-15-2017 01:05 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Unbelievable.

Money really is the root of all evil.
Another "root" is the lust for power.
12-15-2017 12:55 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya>”I wasn't saying the churches force the saints to buy the material. I'm saying LSM forces the local churches to buy it, whether is sells to the saints of not. That's just what someone told me and I honestly hope I'm wrong and they had wrong information!”

Kumbaya, I can only share my experience. LSM does not force local churches to buy anything. For those that own their meeting hall they will often carry some of the books for the convenience of the saints but mostly books are sold online, on amazon, or on subscription. Some of the larger churches have bigger libraries, and they should to serve the needs of the saints.

I can’t speak to what someone told you but I can tell you after more than four decades in churches big and small, in many places near and far, those that own their meeting hall, those that rent, and those that have no meeting hall at all, I have never once observed LSM forcing local churches to buy books.

Drake
12-15-2017 12:49 PM
Ohio
Re: copies made in the past was a great offense to "the office"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
This is an excerpt from a book that took two years to complete Jan 2005 - Jan 2007 - an LC brother, still in good standing, edited this book called Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery. Our brother, Ron Kangas, has given his tacit approval to the veracity of this book. There have been no public criticisms of it by LSM.

Bill Mallon

"In 1985, after the training, I felt to type out the notes I took. I sent them to several brothers to share with them the fellowship of the Spirit, one of which was located in London. (Barbara and I during the winter of early '85 were graciously hosted by one couple in the London area, so I sent them my notes as a gesture of my appreciation.) Philip Lee claimed he consulted with WL and that I should never have done it. He reprimanded me, implying it was in rivalry with their printing department, and said these notes should never be sent before the book was published. He demanded that I retrieve all notes sent, and that I come to Anaheim and apologize to him. I went to Anaheim and apologized, stating that it was totally unintentional. He fell asleep in front of me, and I had to wait for him to wake up.
Every time I read this story I crack up!

Here's Bill Mallon from the Southeast. Humble and altruistic. Never was a more sincere minister. Struggling with all his heart to shepherd the saints, and work together with LSM; believing with all his heart that the leadership at LSM was the same.

Here's W. Lee's reprobate and profligate son Philip. By all accounts not even saved, yet placed in charge over all the other LC workers. The man was impetuous, molested sisters, regularly demeaned those around him, and a foul-mouthed drunk. Couldn't hold a job, yet W. Lee made him boss. Or should I say despot.

Bill Mallon was forced to fly all the way to Anaheim to apologize in order to keep in good standing. He did nothing wrong, but was publicly shamed into submission, Chinese style. He humbles himself before Philip Lee and acknowledges his wrongdoings. He looks up and Philip is snoring.

But dear brother Drake is fine with all this, because he has "seen the vision."

Read also the testimony of John So, the senior worker in Europe throughout the 70's and 80's, who was also accused of that vast global conspiracy with John Ingalls. When John was subjected to Philip's abuses, he decided instead to cut all ties with the Lee family. Witness Lee's response? Slander and smear his reputation before all. You can read his disgusting account in Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.
12-15-2017 12:46 PM
Indiana
Re: No Hint of Control

Okay, sister kumbaya, I am glad to be corrected (according to the fact(s).



From the book RK will not critique and dares not affirm.
(Deviating...)

No Hint of Control


"On page 33 of Fermentation, Brother Lee asks, “Where is the hint, even a little hint, that Witness Lee or Philip Lee or anyone of my office in the past did something to exercise their power over any church?”

At the time Brother Lee asked this question in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion numerous reports had come to him from all over the world that were more than mere hints of control. He knew the stories of LSM control beginning with complaints from Hong Kong in 1985. Then, Stuttgart in 1986; Rosemead 1986; the Southeast 1987; England 1987; Anaheim 1988, to name notable examples. He also knew that a sister who worked at LSM wanted to give him a comprehensive report on “hints of control”, but he wouldn’t listen to her 11-page report (Appendices 1, 3).

He also didn’t listen to John So, Bill Mallon, John Ingalls, or Joseph Fung about LSM domination, usurpation, and control in their localities and region. His support, overtly or covertly, was with his son and LSM’s aggressions and manipulations for accomplishing his goals. The four brothers mentioned, coincidentally, were the same four brothers who were later quarantined, essentially for reacting to the control of LSM in their localities and beyond.

The dismissal of complaints of interferences and control by LSM are common in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, Brother Lee consistently choosing to look past reports and act as if they didn’t exist. It seems Brother Lee could never call the interferences for what they were, acts of control to set up LSM “in business” around the recovery, saying on page 31 in FPR, “We only knew to help and to do everything to expedite the Lord’s recovery in so many countries and to help the churches. That is all we knew.”

What prominent elders and the LSM sister referred to as interferences and violations of the oneness in the Body and the bypassing of fellowship with elders, Brother Lee described as expediting the Lord’s recovery. The control was to such an extent that Brother Lee was forced to speak to the problem in an international elders’ training (ET, Book 9, pp 61-63), saying, “Our going on should be according to what we have seen from the Word. There should not be any control, and the leadership is not in one controlling person.” He added, “I do not control; and the Living Stream office would not control”. Using the words “would not control” means that they certainly did control, but he did not expound on that, saying only, “mistakes may have been made in the past”, which he also didn’t explain, or atone for.

But testimonies do explain and answer the inane question, “Where is the hint, even a little hint, that Witness Lee or Philip Lee or anyone of my office in the past did something to exercise their power over any church?”

Of course, Bill Mallon enumerated the incidences of manipulation and control by Living Stream in his letter to Witness Lee. John So did the same in his Manila report. David Wang gave his full report of LSM control in Rosemead. And, John Ingalls relates the events and concerns in Southern California during the tandem leadership era of Witness Lee and Philip Lee. There were many other people and places who could give reports on “hints of control”.

One matter that the LSM sister must have tried to relate to Brother Lee was that the LSM office, i. e., Philip Lee, cut off the supply of literature to churches that offended him in some way, and their elders were forced to come to him and apologize. Representative examples of this follow.

Eugene, OR “There was a time when the church in Eugene Oregon was cut off from receiving life studies at all because we returned some that went unpurchased by saints. LSM would send up enough life studies for all in attendance and expected all to purchase, which not all did… It was resolved by the elder recruiting skilled brothers to write letters of praise and even a new hymn to Witness Lee, and it worked.” - Kirk

Flagstaff, AZ Elders were stunned when literature stopped being sent to the church in Flagstaff due to the Chinese-speaking side having a surplus of unsold life-studies that the bookroom returned. The whole church was punished as a result, and many saints were demoralized by the act. (former elder, asked not to be identified)

If a brother was thought to be in rivalry with LSM, even in some small way, he was dealt with and must apologize. In the following example, a prominent elder in the recovery was forced to kow tow to Philip Lee.

Bill Mallon

In 1985, after the training, I felt to type out the notes I took. I sent them to several brothers to share with them the fellowship of the Spirit, one of which was located in London. (Barbara and I during the winter of early '85 were graciously hosted by one couple in the London area, so I sent them my notes as a gesture of my appreciation.) Philip Lee claimed he consulted with WL and that I should never have done it. He reprimanded me, implying it was in rivalry with their printing department, and said these notes should never be sent before the book was published. He demanded that I retrieve all notes sent, and that I come to Anaheim and apologize to him. I went to Anaheim and apologized, stating that it was totally unintentional. He fell asleep in front of me, and I had to wait for him to wake up." (email, Dec 2006)

"These matters of control and many other stories like them were reported to Brother Lee, but he had no ear to hear and no heart to know. Brother Lee said, “We only knew to help and to do everything to expedite the Lord’s recovery in so many countries and to help the churches. That is all we knew.” - Yet, that was not all he knew. Such dupery as this prevails in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion from seemingly godly men in their case to quarantine fellow co-workers in the Lord’s recovery.
(from Deviating from the Path)
[/COLOR]
12-15-2017 12:29 PM
kumbaya
Re: copies made in the past was a great offense to "the office"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
This is an excerpt from a book that took two years to complete Jan 2005 - Jan 2007 - an LC brother, still in good standing, edited this book called Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery. Our brother, Ron Kangas, has given his tacit approval to the veracity of this book. There have been no public criticisms of it by LSM.

When I read the post by Kumbaya I thought how sincere, how honest, and he invited correction. This also was my heart-attitude, felt deeply enough to produce the book that tells the other side of the story to the one LSM gave to the church.



Bill Mallon

"In 1985, after the training, I felt to type out the notes I took. I sent them to several brothers to share with them the fellowship of the Spirit, one of which was located in London. (Barbara and I during the winter of early '85 were graciously hosted by one couple in the London area, so I sent them my notes as a gesture of my appreciation.) Philip Lee claimed he consulted with WL and that I should never have done it. He reprimanded me, implying it was in rivalry with their printing department, and said these notes should never be sent before the book was published. He demanded that I retrieve all notes sent, and that I come to Anaheim and apologize to him. I went to Anaheim and apologized, stating that it was totally unintentional. He fell asleep in front of me, and I had to wait for him to wake up.


"These matters of control and many other stories like them were reported to Brother Lee, but he had no ear to hear and no heart to know. Brother Lee said, “We only knew to help and to do everything to expedite the Lord’s recovery in so many countries and to help the churches. That is all we knew.” - Yet, that was not all he knew. Such dupery as this prevails in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion from seemingly godly men in their case to quarantine fellow co-workers in the Lord’s recovery. (email, Dec 2006)
Thank you for posting! I'm taking it as a compliment that several people here think I'm male. Although I shouldn't feel that way- bc that would be sexist to my own self....

Hmmmm.....

It's just power play after power play. I could write a novel on spiritual traps (or- highly recommend the book, "The subtle power of spiritual abuse," which explains it very well. The sad thing is, the sheep get taken by wolves and the wolves justify it bc in their minds its all for the greater good,

Reminds me of almost EVERY movie plot. The ones in power justifying evil works for the "greater good" and to maintain control.

Wrong turn after wrong turn the LC is there.

I'm thinking it's going to take about 5 years and not only will they stop growing, unless they make changes they'll lose members.

I know that's a bold statement but the info is out there and people are curious and want to know.

For me, the tape of the elder in Boston and WL about the loan was it. That and hearing about Philip Lee. I even heard women were paid off to keep quiet. Of course, that one isn't as confirmed but who knows given what else happened.

Because of my personal situation in the last 5 years, I've learned A LOT about healthy emotional development/growth, boundaries, and healthy interpersonal behavior whether spiritual or not.

I realize (and the book I mentioned above emphasizes) that most of the time, spiritual abuse and crossing boundaries with each other isn't a malicious intent. Its not even a conscience thing we do. But the culture we're in determines our actions. We do what we see and what has ALWAYS been wrong has ALWAYS been right in our eyes if it's all we've ever known.

All this applies to our personal life but also the interpersonal dealings with the LC. There is a culture of control and fear/shame that's been passed down.

I don't have many strengths but picking up on unspoken pressure and seeing the big picture isn't hard for me. If anything, I focus TOO much on the big picture.

My issue now is that with the world we live in where knowledge is right at our fingertips- There are no excuses. If you didn't know better before but you're in a position of spiritual authority- you have an obligation to read (not just WL!) books on spiritual guidance and boudaries. You have an obligation to look at young peoples work in your locality and ask yourself whether or not those activities are healthy for where they are in their emotional development.

If you don't, THEN you're in the dark.

And that's whats happening now, sadly.

Along with other things I have issues with, I won't allow my daughter to participate in performance based worship. As a teen, its actually unhealthy for their beginning relationship with the Lord.

I can go on but I won't....lots of info on it online.

I'll just say- I'm thankful for this forum. Thats it.
12-15-2017 12:26 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
This reminds me of W. Lee's statement, "I never controlled anybody, I can't even control a mosquito."

But when many LC's in the GLA stopped buying HWFMR, and TC had his own messages printed, then LSM quarantined GLA leaders, and sent their operatives to the area to stir up trouble with dissidents, and file lawsuits against LC's for meeting halls and bank assets. On many occasions, visitors would report back to the Blendeds that we did not use their materials in our meetings.

They even sued LC's for their *name*. Imagine that! The church with no name getting sued for their name.

Why don't you be honest with the forum members?
Unbelievable.

Money really is the root of all evil.
12-15-2017 12:24 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake
I don't see Xerox copies on the bookshelves.

That's what I was referring to. The churches have to keep those bookshelves stocked with LSM material and LSM material only.
12-15-2017 12:23 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Hi. Thanks for the clarification. Your question is understandable under the circumstances. Sorry about your father’s passing.

Yes, I am still in the church after 4 decades.

Drake
Maybe we know each other...what locality? I know a lot of people from this region...are you from the South? if so, where?
12-15-2017 12:19 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
They also waive the Training Donation for some trainees, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are the only ministry that charges for messages. Didn't the Apostle Paul mention something about "peddling" the word of God?
Wow, very very sad. Never thought of it like that.
12-15-2017 12:00 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Drake, its unspoken pressure to the saints to buy this stuff (with LSM being the only thing the churches sell.)

I wasn't saying the churches force the saints to buy the material. I'm saying LSM forces the local churches to buy it, whether is sells to the saints of not. That's just what someone told me and I honestly hope I'm wrong and they had wrong information!

It's like when you sell a product with a multi-level marketing company. You (as a distributor) are still required to purchase (granted at a discount) material or products to maintain your distributorship, just like the churches have to buy the LSM products to keep their "Lampstand" in the church. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

That's just what it looks like to me and based off what I've been told. Everyone seems to be making money at every level and even if they're not making much, they still require them to show the video training, etc....and although its voluntary- the unspoken pressure is there and all that money the saints pay to attend goes to LSM, right?

Oh the dangers of a business making decisions for churches. It actually happens all the time and its a type of spiritual abuse
12-15-2017 11:57 AM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Thank you, I’ve been reading it for months and only tapped the surface! I plan on remaining for a while to learn/heal though! Appreciate your insight on it. Do you have family still in the church? It’s good advice- I just don’t know how I’m going to navigate this honestly.
I wasn't signed in while responding earlier. (newbie mistake)

That was all me below...
12-15-2017 11:23 AM
Indiana
Re: When copies were a threat to LSM

This is an excerpt from a book that took two years to complete Jan 2005 - Jan 2007 - an LC brother, still in good standing, edited this book called Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery. Our brother, Ron Kangas, has given his tacit approval to the veracity of this book. There have been no public criticisms of it by LSM.

When I read the post by Kumbaya I thought how sincere, how honest, and he invited correction. This also was my heart-attitude, felt deeply enough to produce the book that tells the other side of the disingenuous story given by LSM to the church.



Bill Mallon

"In 1985, after the training, I felt to type out the notes I took. I sent them to several brothers to share with them the fellowship of the Spirit, one of which was located in London. (Barbara and I during the winter of early '85 were graciously hosted by one couple in the London area, so I sent them my notes as a gesture of my appreciation.) Philip Lee claimed he consulted with WL and that I should never have done it. He reprimanded me, implying it was in rivalry with their printing department, and said these notes should never be sent before the book was published. He demanded that I retrieve all notes sent, and that I come to Anaheim and apologize to him. I went to Anaheim and apologized, stating that it was totally unintentional. He fell asleep in front of me, and I had to wait for him to wake up.


"These matters of control and many other stories like them were reported to Brother Lee, but he had no ear to hear and no heart to know. Brother Lee said, “We only knew to help and to do everything to expedite the Lord’s recovery in so many countries and to help the churches. That is all we knew.” - Yet, that was not all he knew. Such dupery as this prevails in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion from seemingly godly men in their case to quarantine fellow co-workers in the Lord’s recovery. (email, Dec 2006)
12-15-2017 11:06 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake
This reminds me of W. Lee's statement, "I never controlled anybody, I can't even control a mosquito."

But when many LC's in the GLA stopped buying HWFMR, and TC had his own messages printed, then LSM quarantined GLA leaders, and sent their operatives to the area to stir up trouble with dissidents, and file lawsuits against LC's for meeting halls and bank assets. On many occasions, visitors would report back to the Blendeds that we did not use their materials in our meetings.

They even sued LC's for their *name*. Imagine that! The church with no name getting sued for their name.

Why don't you be honest with the forum members?
12-15-2017 10:56 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Take a deep breath.

I don’t know that I have a point. I asked a pretty straightforward question, so I guess I have a question...not a point.

If it is widespread, as you say, it should be a very simple answer.

I wasn’t in the recovery for 4 decades - clearly you have a couple, many dozens of examples. Could you provide one?
LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake
12-15-2017 10:38 AM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
It’s irrelevant because it is widespread, observed firsthand in both places I lived and places I visited.

But, whats your point?

Drake
Take a deep breath.

I don’t know that I have a point. I asked a pretty straightforward question, so I guess I have a question...not a point.

If it is widespread, as you say, it should be a very simple answer.

I wasn’t in the recovery for 4 decades - clearly you have a couple, many dozens of examples. Could you provide one?
12-15-2017 10:11 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Yes I have seen Xerox copies made. I’m not claiming it to be a money making scheme... I don’t think many people are on this website posting to warn people about a money making scheme.

Humor me and provide just one locality name of the “several”
It’s irrelevant because it is widespread, observed firsthand in both places I lived and places I visited.

But, whats your point?

Drake
12-15-2017 10:01 AM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Hey! Well- I’m female actually

My dad passed away as an elder when I was still an older teenager and I had stopped attending the meetings. I didn’t know the inner workings/requirements then with Anaheim and from what I’ve heard- things have changed a lot in the last 10-15 years. My dad passed away in 2003...

Drake, Are you still in the church and you know this isn’t the case? Sorry- not understanding what you’re saying...
Hi. Thanks for the clarification. Your question is understandable under the circumstances. Sorry about your father’s passing.

Yes, I am still in the church after 4 decades.

Drake
12-15-2017 05:20 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake
They also waive the Training Donation for some trainees, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are the only ministry that charges for messages. Didn't the Apostle Paul mention something about "peddling" the word of God?
12-15-2017 04:23 AM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake
Yes I have seen Xerox copies made. I’m not claiming it to be a money making scheme... I don’t think many people are on this website posting to warn people about a money making scheme.

Humor me and provide just one locality name of the “several”
12-14-2017 10:28 PM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>“Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”.”

For me, no. None of the above.

Yet, you were/are an elder’s son and do not know the answers to these questions? I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

Drake
It kind of seems like you’re passive aggressively dismissing me...is that intentional? You don’t know me and I’m sure there’s a lot of “interesting” people on here but take it as you will- I grew up very much involved with every aspect of the local church life and not only know about it but have many relationships (good and strained ones) with family and friends that still participate.

I’m on this forum only bc I care....
12-14-2017 10:22 PM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
No more interesting yet odd then for someone to claim that they came to Local Church meetings for more than one year before "hearing the name Witness Lee".
-
Yes, that would be a hard thing to believe. Maybe a home meeting without a bookshelf display! But one year?? Sorry- that’s almost unbelievable. He was the “modern day prophet” who uncovered the last riches of the Bible.

Well, that’s what I was always told anyways!

Sorry for the sarcasm- can’t help it!
12-14-2017 10:19 PM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
kumbaya, you are in a difficult situation with your family. Sometimes you can only watch and pray ... listening to them in silence with love and compassion. There will come a time when your family will put their guard down, and begin to question things in their own heart.

Meanwhile equip yourself. Though it's difficult to navigate this forum at times, there are many rebuttals to LC teachings here. Sometimes the right verse can help, sometimes a little dose of common sense. These can challenge your family in a loving way. Prepare loving answers for them when the Lord provides opportunity. Most LCers have no idea how much LSM reeks with hypocrisy and unrighteousness.

Young people think the FTTA will cure all their issues as a Christian. They have been convinced of this from their childhood. It takes time to break them of this spell. So many have returned from the FTTA and could not return to normal life. They were filled with arrogant judgmentalism. It took a while for that garbage to go thru their system.
Thank you, I’ve been reading it for months and only tapped the surface! I plan on remaining for a while to learn/heal though! Appreciate your insight on it. Do you have family still in the church? It’s good advice- I just don’t know how I’m going to navigate this honestly.
12-14-2017 10:17 PM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by least View Post
Kumbaya wrote: "You might not get sick and it’s going to taste really good...."

No, Kumbaya.

Taste really OFF. Get sick with 'ill conscience'.
-
edited: conscious to conscience. Thank you Indiana.
Right, the problem is- it’s not ALL bad and there are genuine believers there. It’s why I always was confused by their quote/motto, “Christ plus nothing.”

Only Christ is Christ plus nothing, right?

So when LSM has requirements on the local churches (who according to Witness Lee should be autonomous....how is that, “Christ plus nothing??”
12-14-2017 10:13 PM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
kumbaya,
Welcome, thanks for taking the time to register and make these very good opening posts!

This is a very keen observation on your part. God, from the beginning, has shown himself to be a wonderful Creator and purveyor of diversity. Just take a look at his creation - tall mountains, deep valleys, trees and plants of every imaginable shape, color and size. Flowers of innumerable colors and shapes. Mysterious tiny creatures that cannot be seen with the naked eye, all the way to ginormous animals who walk the earth and swim in the seas.
Wonderful perspective- thank you!
12-14-2017 10:11 PM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake
But making churches buy only from LSM and LSM only is controlling money. So it’s about both.
It’s not so much about money...all about CONTROL.
12-14-2017 10:04 PM
Unregistered
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>“Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”.”

For me, no. None of the above.

Yet, you were/are an elder’s son and do not know the answers to these questions? I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

Drake
Hey! Well- I’m female actually

My dad passed away as an elder when I was still an older teenager and I had stopped attending the meetings. I didn’t know the inner workings/requirements then with Anaheim and from what I’ve heard- things have changed a lot in the last 10-15 years. My dad passed away in 2003...

Drake, Are you still in the church and you know this isn’t the case? Sorry- not understanding what you’re saying...
12-14-2017 06:03 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Drake has far more experience than I do with the local churches...

Is there a particular locality that does not pay the LSM (and only LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation?
Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake
12-14-2017 05:49 PM
leastofthese
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Kumbaya>“Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”.”

For me, no. None of the above.

Yet, you were/are an elder’s son and do not know the answers to these questions? I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

Drake
Drake has far more experience than I do with the local churches...

Is there a particular locality that does not pay the LSM (and only LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation?
12-14-2017 02:21 PM
UntoHim
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I find that.... interesting... yet odd.
No more interesting yet odd then for someone to claim that they came to Local Church meetings for more than one year before "hearing the name Witness Lee".
-
12-14-2017 01:10 PM
Drake
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya>“Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”.”

For me, no. None of the above.

Yet, you were/are an elder’s son and do not know the answers to these questions? I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

Drake
12-14-2017 07:19 AM
UntoHim
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
We are not meant to be identical clones in a suppressive culture. My younger sis has bought in hook, line, and sinker and honestly-has a hard time realizing she's not functioning well in the real world.
...Even if you believe EVERYTHING the FTT teaches, does it have to be in that environment?
kumbaya,
Welcome, thanks for taking the time to register and make these very good opening posts!

This is a very keen observation on your part. God, from the beginning, has shown himself to be a wonderful Creator and purveyor of diversity. Just take a look at his creation - tall mountains, deep valleys, trees and plants of every imaginable shape, color and size. Flowers of innumerable colors and shapes. Mysterious tiny creatures that cannot be seen with the naked eye, all the way to ginormous animals who walk the earth and swim in the seas.

So when we come to the masterpiece of his creation - Man - why would God be any less of a wonderful Creator and purveyor of diversity? Of course the answer to this question is on display right before us throughout human history. If you think about it, it is man himself who seems to want to force conformity and uniformity. And this is one of the dangers and tragedies of false religion - the forcing and enforcing of conformity to a man-made structure apart from, and even antithetical to, God's original intention.

So now we come to the Local Church of Witness Lee. As kumbaya has pointed out, the group has become a "suppressive culture" where diversity has been replaced by the most strict and wooden religious conformity. Tolerance, mercy, grace and freedom are replaced with uniformity and conformity. Basically, everything the LC movement was supposed to be "recovering" has been thrown out the door, and instead of progressing forward it seems the group has receded back to the dark ages. May God have mercy.

-
12-13-2017 07:15 PM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I'm registered now

Any advice on dealing with your family being in the church? It dominates everything and I've just accepted feeling left out somewhat but I also don't know when to say/not say something.

It doesn't make sense to me, at all. It probably never will. I just wish I could be in a room with my sister sometimes without resisting to roll my eyes or come back with an alternate view that would probably create an uncomfortable situation.

*sigh* love love love love will get us though
kumbaya, you are in a difficult situation with your family. Sometimes you can only watch and pray ... listening to them in silence with love and compassion. There will come a time when your family will put their guard down, and begin to question things in their own heart.

Meanwhile equip yourself. Though it's difficult to navigate this forum at times, there are many rebuttals to LC teachings here. Sometimes the right verse can help, sometimes a little dose of common sense. These can challenge your family in a loving way. Prepare loving answers for them when the Lord provides opportunity. Most LCers have no idea how much LSM reeks with hypocrisy and unrighteousness.

Young people think the FTTA will cure all their issues as a Christian. They have been convinced of this from their childhood. It takes time to break them of this spell. So many have returned from the FTTA and could not return to normal life. They were filled with arrogant judgmentalism. It took a while for that garbage to go thru their system.
12-13-2017 01:18 PM
least
Re: First Post kumbaya

Kumbaya wrote: "You might not get sick and it’s going to taste really good...."

No, Kumbaya.

Taste really OFF. Get sick with 'ill conscience'.
-
edited: conscious to conscience. Thank you Indiana.
12-13-2017 12:35 PM
kumbaya
Re: First Post kumbaya

I'm registered now

Any advice on dealing with your family being in the church? It dominates everything and I've just accepted feeling left out somewhat but I also don't know when to say/not say something.

It's one thing with the older generation but I have younger family members about to attend the training and they already seem "different"...like FTTA minions or something. The culture and influence on personality is REAL....I know first hand how alienating the FTT can make people.

The Mormans do the same thing, they take people at a young age and indoctrinate them. It would be different if they were JUST learning the Bible but they're not. They're learning to serve the Lord ONLY within certain limits. Limits set by the FTTA of course.

I went to a training a few years ago. Aside from the "testing", I enjoyed it. I didn't realize how many unhealthy practices were going on but anyone can enjoy the Lord, anywhere. He, unlike local church members, are not limited.

However, a few years later I went to a FFTA training. The situation was definitely different. I almost felt like it was an alien movie where Christian clones were taking over. They all said the SAME thing and looked EXACTLY alike.

HOW IS THIS BIBLICAL???

We are not meant to be identical clones in a suppressive culture. My younger sis has bought in hook, line, and sinker and honestly-has a hard time realizing she's not functioning well in the real world. In serving the church as a full-timer, yeah she's getting by... In the real world- she's not. She is not self aware at all and it breaks my heart to know that its not just me, she is annoying to a lot of people. I'm a big believer in self awareness and I believe the FTTA drives that out of people when the attend. Its just crazy to me how much of a bubble they put people in. It's seriously psychologically damaging.

Even if you believe EVERYTHING the FTT teaches, does it have to be in that environment?

How do you deal with family members who are so adamant that this is the best and only way to live?

Whether intentional or not, I wonder if some of the members (my family included) realize how condescending they come off to people who aren't in the church. The spiritual arrogance isn't any better than just plain old arrogance. It's SOOOO elitist and "above" everyone. But, they're Christian....

It doesn't make sense to me, at all. It probably never will. I just wish I could be in a room with my sister sometimes without resisting to roll my eyes or come back with an alternate view that would probably create an uncomfortable situation.

*sigh* love love love love will get us though
12-13-2017 10:12 AM
Ohio
Re: First Post kumbaya

Welcome to the forum Kumbaya!

Your numerous observations are correct. They are some of the ones that troubled us too, so we too left. I like your comment about Herbalife. I used to drink that stuff and it made me sick to my stomach. Just sayin'...

There is nothing "local" in the LC's any more than the local Catholic parish I grew up in. They are both run by a dominant headquarters, who move their "priests" around in order to maintain order. They control the printing presses, and constantly warn the faithful of those horrible "Protestants."

Things were much better back in the mid 70's when I first met them -- a little more local, much more Christ, a focus on the Bible, and the liberty of the Spirit. It seemed that every few years some "storm" would be used to tighten the noose in Anaheim. Like the rotten politicians love to say, "never let a good crisis go to waste."

As I left the LC during the Great Quarantines of the 00's, the buzz in my head was saying, "this program produces bullies out of beloved brothers." I saw it on every level. It was a systemic disease based on bad teachings and practices. Like our Lord warned His disciples, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." A little leaven goes a long way, someone once said.

You're right. Some of their "cheeseburgers" can make you sick.
12-13-2017 08:31 AM
Unregistered
First Post kumbaya

I’ve requested a username just now but I guess this will be unregistered as of now. I requested kumbaya so assuming that goes through- that’s me!

I’m a former church kid, dad was an elder. I’ve left the church, came back after having a spiritual turn, but left again due to some personal circumstances. During that time I began to see MAJOR issues that I just couldn’t get passed. This led me here, and to talking with former members. I can confidently say that unless there are MAJOR changes- I wouldn’t return.

I have many issues, a lot of which I see on this site mentioned. Maybe I haven’t searched correctly for this topic but I haven’t seen posts about the fact that LSM is basically a business that runs the church now. Who owns LSM? Ron Kangus? (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

So he runs LSM and makes decisions as one of the “blending brothers” for the church.

RED FLAG?????

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”

I don’t care WHAT you’re selling, preaching, whatever. This is a TERRIBLE model to follow for a church. No wonder so much sin, corruption, and divisiveness has happened!!

All the churches and people that were quarantined for having their own publications were told there could only be “one trumpet” by the leading brothers in Anaheim, who conveniently, also control LSM.

This is infuriating. I really hope I’m wrong and if someone can refute it, please do.

What this is besides being a terrible abuse, is a multilevel direct sales model. They might as well have copied Herbalife’s business model and stamped “The local church” on it.

Disgusting in my opinion.

I mentioned this to a “saint” or woman I know in the local church and she said, “well, the structure is messy but as long as you’re getting fed. Kitchens get messy when you make the food but the purpose is to eat.”

Ok, fair enough. I didn’t think quickly enough to respond with this then but later I was thinking ..OK, sure- kitchens get messy when cooking just like the other appearances in the church life do. But, would you eat at a kitchen that was so messy that it caused food poisoning to hundreds of people? If you knew that a restatursnt had multiple health code violations but still, they made this really good cheeseburger....would you eat there? You might not get sick and it’s going to taste really good....

No, you probably wouldn’t eat there.

The local church has a horrible history and culture of spiritual abuse and overstepping boundaries. There has to be change or it doesn’t matter how good the “food” is, no one wants to eat in a poisonous kitchen.

Among many issues, I think the main one causing issues is having a publishing business so closely tied to the church. How much division and pain had this caused? Is it worth the money saved than to hire an outside publisher?

I don’t think so. It’s all very sad.

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