Originally Posted by Drake

Prolly just something awareness COBBLED together.

Originally Posted by Drake

I know, I know... that is a groaner for sure.... but still trying to recover my bearings after that devastating elbow drop by UntoHim.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Is it based in Atlanta? (howzat 4 humor?)

Originally Posted by awareness

Originally Posted by Ohio

Originally Posted by Drake

And yet, while the duck is gasping for that elusive breath of air, his quack returning from utter silence to a faint wheezing sound, the blackout suffered from a direct solar plexus shot now yielding to merely blurred vision .... he can now hear the count.... 6,...7... 8... ... 9.... the duck stands up on both webbed feet, still woozy but ready to reengage... he flaps his wings... granted missing a few feathers from that last shot....

Then seemingly out of nowhere, flying in from above, jumping off the third rope and executing a high impact pointed elbow drop right between the wings... it’s UntoHim! It’s a tag team now! The duck goes down for the count... squawking as he gets flattened in that crushing blow...feathers flying everywhere.... the crowd cries out for more... now folding chairs are sailing through the air toward the duck.... will the he recover.?.. hard to say actually...stay tuned.

Drake

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I think our friend Drake just got rope-a-doped ....just when it looked like he had aron on the ropes....kaaablaaam! So while Drake is readjusting his solar plexus and getting his air back....
-

Originally Posted by aron

Perhaps they should re-name it the Defense and Denial Project....And then they pretend to care about people.

Originally Posted by Drake

The situation in PPRC is extremely volatile and dangerous. Christian churches who do not belong to TSPM (Three-Self Patriot Movement) .
.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Poor guy, don’t think I ever met him. He has an uphill battle, LSM doesn’t have a PR problem it is flawed fundamentally at its core.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Chris Wilde is their PR guy at LSM.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Had a friend that just got back from a China as a missionary. Amen.

LSM has a PR guy?!? I think they need to reconsider their staffing... poor guy isn’t doing a great job.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every poster here is sympathetic to God's children oppressed in China and elsewhere. That goes without saying. Christians are in danger around the globe.

But what does that have to do with LSM disowning the brother who smuggled Bibles into China and disavowing any connection to the Shouters offshoot of the Little Flock?

You and LSM are far more concerned with your image and book sales than you are with suffering Christians in China, and that's why LSM has a professional PR man on staff.

Originally Posted by Drake

The situation in PPRC is extremely volatile and dangerous. Christian churches who do not belong to TSPM (Three-Self Patriot Movement) and their leaders and elders have and are routinely persecuted, prosecuted, and suffer imprisonments and death sentences. TSPM is the official religious arm of the Chinese government whose aim is to bring all religious practices and church groups under its control.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

If two things are correlated, there is likely (not always) some reason why.

Originally Posted by Drake

Correlation is not proof of causation.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

http://concernedbrothers.com/BibleSm...lingScheme.pdf
Los Angeles Times, Wed., Jan. 9, 2002, p. A3

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP is correct. Aron is reading in causation perhaps because he wants to see it (subjective validation) or he s naive or thinking overly simplistic (experiencing pateidolia) and has only shown correlation not causation.

It helps to see a similar example in a different setting: someone sends inert “bombs” to politicians to scare them. He is seen previously at political rallies, wears a political hat, and his van is covered in stickers and banners promotimg his favorite political leader. There is a connection, a correlation between the bomber and the leader but there is no proof that the leader caused the bomber to do such a terrible thing. To claim causation would be a logical fallacy and many of those who claim causation want (subjective validation) to see cause in that scenario.

Same type of logical fallacy thinking Aron asserted.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Therefore, exactly what quote from Chris are you referring to? Provide a kink to the whole of what said.

Thanks

Drake

Originally Posted by aron

No, but LSM spokesman Chris Wilde did. That's what I was referring to. I said, "the LSM house organ". That was a reference to Wilde in his official capacity, not to your posts.

In 1994, WL claimed 20 million shouters from the podium. I was there and heard it. In 2004 Chris Wilde said there was no connection whatsoever. In 10 years, 20 million people vanished - neat trick

Originally Posted by Drake

Correlation is not proof of causation.

Originally Posted by Trapped

What exactly did aron assert? What exactly was aron's argument that he is false about?

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron, I didn’t say there was no connection. Did I? No, I did not.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Correlation doesn't always prove causation, but it can.

Originally Posted by aron

I read a report on cults in China, and something like eight of the twelve covered in the paper traced themselves back to the LC.

But of course, that's just a coincidence. There's no connection whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Drake

The fallacy in your argument is that you think correlation proves causation.Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Same type of logical fallacy thinking Aron asserted.

Drake

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Correlation is not causation is not the same as saying "there is no connection whatsoever". Correlation is connection. For example, you have not demonstrated that WL and the LRC are the cause of the cults, or if the cause of the cults is the reason for the LRC and many other examples. You have demonstrated a connection, you just haven't provided evidence that WL was the cause.

Originally Posted by aron

Even granting Drake's point, saying "there is no connection whatsoever" doesn't mean there is no connection whatsoever, only that one wishes that it were so, once the "PR pendulum" swings the other way.

Originally Posted by aron

Especially since the obviously biased & self-serving LC house organ says there's no connection whatsoever, this is a fair question to ask.

Originally Posted by Ohio

We can however note that some of these aberrant Chinese LC spinoffs (cults?) have an excessive admiration and exaltation of Witness Lee, supposedly the Deputy Authority, today's Apostle Paul, the Minister of the Age,

Originally Posted by Ohio

Does any fair-minded observer think there's a connection?

Originally Posted by aron

Even granting Drake's point, saying "there is no connection whatsoever" doesn't mean there is no connection whatsoever, only that one wishes that it were so, once the "PR pendulum" swings the other way.

Originally Posted by Ohio

When these Chinese "shouter" cults are shouting / chanting / invoking the glorious name of Witness Lee, then you can't see any causation?
LSM used to inflate their global membership numbers with these fine folks, but now these ones have also been "quarantined."

Originally Posted by Terry

When the rubber meets the road and the most evil speaker on the internet was in town and willing to have a face to face conversation with DCP's Dan Sady, he was conveniently unavailable. Perhaps there was no interest in defending the indefensible because interest had shifted to member retention.

Originally Posted by aron

I read a report on cults in China, and something like eight of the twelve covered in the paper traced themselves back to the LC.

But of course, that's just a coincidence. There's no connection whatsoever..

Originally Posted by Trapped

Can anyone who grew up in another (non-LC) church chime in at all about if this kind of thing is normal for other churches? Like do your typical other churches out there deal with inoculations and antidotes and rebellions and storms and anti-cult work and equipping their members for the next round of attacks and oppositions and obsessions with "competing ministries" and dissenters and looking for "potential friends" etc etc etc now my head is spinning and I can't possibly believe that other churches remotely spend any time on this kind of..

Originally Posted by Freedom

The fact that the DCP has concerned itself with such things, supposedly irrelevant to the LC, serves as proof that there's a lot more going on than meets the eye.

Originally Posted by Freedom

The thing that is interesting about the DCP is just how much material they create with an LC member audience in mind. . . .Eventually what changed my mind was not being conceived of anything, it was having certain experiences that were too troubling to ignore. People’s own experiences are what really serves as a direct contradiction to all the propaganda that comes out of the DCP. That’s why I don't worry too much about what the DCP is up to. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Can anyone who grew up in another (non-LC) church chime in at all about if this kind of thing is normal for other churches? Like do your typical other churches out there deal with inoculations and antidotes and rebellions and storms and anti-cult work and equipping their members for the next round of attacks and oppositions and obsessions with "competing ministries" and dissenters and looking for "potential friends" etc etc etc now my head is spinning and I can't possibly believe that other churches remotely spend any time on this kind of thing?

I mean, how much easier would it be to lighten up on the off-kilter Lee stuff and have their own mini "we were wrong" moment, and just then be freed to go on possibly actually be obsessed with the actual gospel rather than defending every statement of a guy who made many erroneous statements!

I mean, I heard all growing up that as a Christian you are expected to encounter opposition, but I just can't accept that this is the type of opposition a normal Christian is supposed to expect. What kind of opposition do other (non-LC) Christians encounter?

Originally Posted by Koinonia

January 31, 2017

Re: 2016 in Review

Dear Brothers,

2016 was a busy year at DCP. As we rely upon the fellowship and prayer of the churches and the saints, we want to share with you some of the progress made last year. One practical matter was our move into new offices at 1853 W. Ball Road, Suite 103, Anaheim, CA. 92804.

In 2016 DCP gave presentations at the Full-Time Training, Anaheim; at a gathering of Mountain States brothers in Albuquerque; and at a European Brothers Training in Baarlo. Topics included crucial truths that are under attack, how to inoculate new ones and to provide an antidote to those damaged by false reports and attacks on the truth, the history of opposition and rebellion, and the progress and importance of developing positive contacts with fellow believers.

Writing Projects
DCP produced a paper on the Triune God that was presented at the 2016 joint meeting of the Evangelical Philosophical Society and the Evangelical Theological Society. Five brothers attended, were positively received, and met a number of open scholars who were aware of Witness Lee’s ministry or Affirmation and Critique.

We continued work on a four-volume series on the history of the warfare surrounding and including the litigations over The Mindbenders, The God-Men, and the Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions. The draft and internal review of Books 1 and 2 are complete, and we have started our in-house review of the completed drafts of Books 3 and 4. Our burden in these books is to put to rest many false reports and to help equip the next generation in the Lord’s recovery how to face the enemy’s attacks.

DCP wrote a chapter for a book by Massimo Introvigne, Ph.D., on the Exclusive Brethren. The chapter corrects inaccurate historical accounts of the interactions between Watchman Nee and the Taylorite Brethren and explains Watchman Nee’s stand for the oneness of the Body. DCP provided information, including an explanation that we are not a denomination, to Roger Olson, theology professor at Truett Seminary, for his forthcoming edition of Handbook of Denominations in the United States. DCP also produced a draft entry for Georg Schmid’s updated Encyclopedia of Christian Churches, a widely used resource in the German-speaking world.

China-related
DCP provided research and logistical support to researchers for a book on Eastern Lightning (EL), also known as the Church of Almighty God, which will strongly differentiate it from the local churches, countering the trend among some academics. Support included visits to China, Korea, and Australia for meetings with relevant persons including EL members. DCP is preparing material in English and Chinese to inoculate the saints against EL’s heresies (a female (anti)Christ, denying the Bible, etc.) and deceptive tactics used to recruit from among attendees in local church meetings.

We continued contacts with various Chinese agencies and officials concerning cult issues and the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Just two years ago we were listed third on the list of xiejiao (commonly translated as “evil cult” in the West) by the China Anti-Cult Association (CACA). Last April, CACA published a new list of xiejiao and for the first time in many years, “the Shouters sect,” which it earlier identified with Witness Lee and the local churches, was not on the list.

A brother presented papers on Watchman Nee’s use of examples from a Chinese context to teach truths at a U.S. conference on Sinicization of Christianity and on the influence of Western missionary work on Watchman Nee’s family at Shanghai University.

Among the Churches Globally
DCP is working with co-workers in Europe to develop inoculation material in German. This includes three websites—witnessleelehren.org, die-wahrheit-des-evangeliums.org (already launched), and die- ortsgemeinden.de. All three should be live by the end of February 2017. The “We Were Wrong” edition of the Christian Research Journal has been translated into German, published in Germany, and posted on the CRI website. Some DCP-related publications are being translated and corrections are being made to inaccurate German-language Internet articles. DCP began a research project to resolve persistent misinformation left over from the late-1980s European turmoil. DCP has also:

• Supported the brothers in India as they face opposition online and from a new publication,
• Consulted with brothers in Puerto Rico concerning an ex-member’s competing work,
• Provided assistance so that Cuban leading ones may get U.S. visas to attend the seven feasts,
• Responded to a dissenting one’s article in the Netherlands (also posted online), and
• Assisted the church in Chicago with material to inoculate against a competing ministry.

Aggressive Contacts
We have continued the long-term project of discovering scholars and other respected Christians who may be potential friends of the Lord’s recovery. This requires research, travel, and much fellowship. One new area of this labor is contact and visitation with key persons in the German-speaking world.

Internet & In-Office Projects
DCP now operates ltm.org and has renamed it localchurchesfaq.org; this site has been redesigned for mobile use. Redesign of contendingforthefaith.org is nearly complete and an-open-letter.org is under redesign to improve user experience and mobile compatibility. We also continue to monitor and respond to matters on the web.

We cherish the fellowship and prayers of the churches and share the above matters with you in mutuality for the Lord’s interest.

In Christ,

Abraham Ho and Dan Sady on behalf of DCP

Originally Posted by Freedom

The thing that is interesting about the DCP is just how much material they create with an LC member audience in mind. Presumably, an organization that is supposed to be defending the teachings of WL wouldn't need that much interaction with members who are supposed to already be sold on the teachings they follow.

Originally Posted by Ohio

For years I shook my head in awe that consecrated members of the LC's could so easily be "poisoned." Is their faith that vulnerable? Was their character that unstable? What could possibly cause these ones to flip-flop almost overnight?

Eventually I learned for myself why and how so many saints got "poisoned" so quickly. It was simple. As long as Lee and LSM kept Pandora's Box under lock and key, all was well. That's because Lee and LSM have a public and private persona. The private side has all sorts of rotten things hidden away, that they want no one to see, least of which are their loyal members. As long as the box stayed locked, even if the stench within leaked out, they could always blame it on "persecution" by those evil "denominations." For years this was pretty effective.

But once the box was cracked open, and the light could shine within, the door was open to all the lies and corruptions within. Before Al Gore invented the internet, this job was a whole lot easier for them, but now the job of keeping the door shut is well nigh impossible. Even a seasoned legal defense team can't keep the door shut.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Originally Posted by Freedom

The thing that is interesting about the DCP is just how much material they create with an LC member audience in mind. Presumably, an organization that is supposed to be defending the teachings of WL wouldn't need that much interaction with members who are supposed to already be sold on the teachings they follow. So once you delve into things a little bit deeper it becomes apparent that so much material is nothing more than propaganda. All the talk of 'inoculation' or addressing "competing ministries" have nothing to do with defending WL's teachings. An objective person doesn't need to be 'inoculated' from anything. As has been mentioned, that kind of talk is coded language.

What it really seems is at the heart of the issue is member retention. When you look how easily LC members can develop concerns or 'disappear', it makes sense why they want to reverse that. But as we know, they are unable to address the underlying factors related to that. Thus, their only strategy has been to limit the information available and hope that it works. The strategy does work on some people, I think that it worked on me for a while, at least in the sense that I had no desire to consider anything 'negative' that had been written about the LC. Eventually what changed my mind was not being conceived of anything, it was having certain experiences that were too troubling to ignore. People’s own experiences are what really serves as a direct contradiction to all the propaganda that comes out of the DCP. That’s why I don't worry too much about what the DCP is up to. They aren't fooling anyone but themselves.

Originally Posted by Terry

The LSM/DCP usage of the word friends is a coded word of neutrality. It implies there could be a relationship that could be beneficial, but by no means does it imply being on equal footing.
A few years back some brothers from the Church in Seattle had visited some brothers from the Church in Moses Lake. The consensus of the meeting by the Seattle brothers was, "they're our friends".

Originally Posted by Freedom

When I read about the DCP's endeavors to interact with Christians outside, it seems that the goal has become to find others who might be friendly to their efforts. In other words, it seems they realize that they can't truly defend Lee’s teachings, and don’t want to engage in actual dialogue with the critics, but they do want to find people (like Hank/CRI) who might be more likely to accept their narrative of the LC.

Originally Posted by Terry

Goodness grief!
Does it always have to be a competition?

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward. Mark 9:38-41

In principle same applies now as it was in the gospels.

Originally Posted by Koinonia