Originally Posted by OBW

Loaded question. And while I respect JJ's response, there is immediately a problem in the juxtaposition of the two words. I believe that worship is only accorded to God. And in the middle of the season of Lent, many have recently heard it as part of the statements Jesus gave in response to Satan's temptation after the 40 days in the wilderness.

And without suggesting any reduction in the reading and study of the bible, there is a problem when it becomes an object of worship. When it is searched like a book of potions as a solution for everything, or treated as a magic 8 ball with just the answer you need, then there is a problem.

In fact, the whole "inerrant scripture" fad of late is not really about whether the scripture makes errors on anything. Instead, it is a term tossed out too often as a discussion stopper concerning disagreements as to what any passage actually means. Inerrancy means that my interpretation is right and yours is wrong.

When we have a bible that we worship, we have no need to seek out the one that it seeks to reveal.

Originally Posted by manna-man

What do you have to say about these two words?

Bible Worship

Originally Posted by JJ

Seems like another attempt of the enemy to get the saints to a) stop reading the Bible, b) understand it, and c) do as Jesus commands. If he stops them at a, b and c never happen.

Originally Posted by manna-man

Greetings saints!
What do you have to say about these two words?


(Bible Worship)

Peace

Originally Posted by Scribe

Greetings Manna-man. Glorious study indeed is grace. In my present experience I see, that as grace passes through a man, he goes through certain trials in which he gains Christ. What he goes through and his victory in it become added into the grace of God to be imparted to others.

We of course have this grace because it is formed in Jesus. All He is and has and has experienced has become this grace. But not only. His grace has also passed through Paul. We need Paul's experience in our grace. So Paul writes to the Philppians in chapter one

³I thank my God for my whole remembrance of you,

⁴constantly in my every supplication, making the supplication for you all with joy,
⁵because of your fellowship with the gospel, from the first day until now;
⁶having confidence of this very thing, that he who has begun in you a good work will complete it unto Jesus Christ's day: ⁷as it is righteous for me to think this as to you all, because ye have *me* in your hearts, and that both in my bonds and in the defence and confirmation of the glad tidings ye are all participators in my grace.


Paul is confident that He who has began a good work in us will complete it. He knows it is righteous for him to think this- Because "you have me in your hearts". I do not think he means in a sentimental way. He means that he was been mingled into the gospel and imparted into our heart. In all his experience and suffering with the gospel he has been reduced and mingled into the grace to be in us. This is his confidence. So now in the defence and confirmation of Paul's gospel we are partakers of his grace. And not only so dear brother, that grace grows. For as we partaker of Paul's grace we have our own particular tirals and sufferings in the gosepl. This compounds into the grace to be imparted to others.

Yes what mystery. It is no small thing to receive grace from your brother. I am thankful.

Scribe

Originally Posted by manna-man

Yes,...What a mystery!

That grace can flow from our God/Christ into His body/us!

To fully grasp and appreciate the splendor of this "grace" is our homework project for eternity.

And this is just the beginning! To Know such a Person.

May we all appreciate more and more His love/grace that endures forever!

Peace brother Scribe,

Don Jr.

Originally Posted by Scribe

Thank you for the grace you have sent to me Manna-man Don jr. Grace has been a mystery to me until recent days, now it unfolds in my understanding. I am thankful that Grace has come to me through you. What a mystery!

Scribe

Originally Posted by manna-man

Amen Scribe,

Jesus is our Word/Daily Bread for today. May we hear His Spirit call!

Grace to you Scribe!

Don Jr

Originally Posted by Scribe

Greetings Manna-man and all.....

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I AM: Jesus upset his generation especially when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Note also his claim to be Jehovah in such phrases as "I AM the Light of the world," "the bread of life," living water," "the Resurrection and the Life," "the Way, Truth and the Life"

Amd he is!

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

As I continue to walk with God in this journey, I am learning it is ok to keep some things from the LC, some things other brethren do in praise / worship such as lifting up of the hands, clapping, jumping, sometimes simply being quiet. I am learning to listen carefully to the Voice of God.

Originally Posted by aron

Thanks for the correction. I was treating the terms as synonymous.

Originally Posted by OBW

Aron,

"Charismatic" tends to mean Pentecostal in terms of religion. But there are many who are charismatic who are not Pentecostal. In the case of the LC, there are some charismatic leaders (and was a specific one in the past) but they are not Pentecostal.

Originally Posted by aron

That's how I read it. Some people get into a "sing-songy" cadence when they are teaching. They use volume and speed modulations, and the listeners in the audience go, "Wow, they are in the Spirit", and become more receptive.

Originally Posted by OBW

What exactly does this mean? Does it mean that their teaching is questionable? (Putting teaching in quotes as you did seems to indicate some question about whether it is really teaching.)

Originally Posted by OBW

Does it mean that they have a mannerism in their teaching that is presumed within certain circles to be "anointing"?

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

[Persons] ... have a STRONG Pentecostal background. You can hear it when they begin to 'teach' under the anointing.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother YP,

I was looking for some prudent wisdom for a difficult situation, so I presented verses to help explain the other side's views, in order to help the dialog, or so I thought.

Never intended to play religious games or "verse wars" with you or anybody. Sorry for any confusion or misunderstanding.

This is the second time I have attempted to get some insight about the "tongues conflict" among Christians on the forums. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out. I think I'll just drop it.

Peace.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Ohio,
The 'church' is constantly 'changing'. The Charasmatics and Word of Faith (WoF) have come out of the Pentecostal movement. Most pray/speak in tongues but they don't consider themselves Pentecostals.

Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Oral Roberts (rip), Paula White, Jesse Duplantis are part of the WoF clan. Perry Stone & Rod Parsley have a STRONG Pentecostal background. You can hear it when they begin to 'teach' under the anointing.

I am only naming these people because I am very familiar with their minisitries and know something about Pentecostals, Charasmatics & WoF.

Charles Stanley a well known Baptist preacher/teacher is not Pentecostal or WoF. He might be considered a Fundamental Charasmatic.

SHEESH !!! LORD have Mercy !

Originally Posted by Ohio

By "down the middle" I heard that just about 50% of all evangelical Christians are Pentecostal. Not my stats, just what I heard.

Originally Posted by YP0534

Quoting verses out of context to support my opinion or to refute those of another is a religious game I don't play any more.

I'm sorry you think that's what I was doing.


Grace to you.

Originally Posted by Ohio

We started to meet at one place this summer, and after the recent bible study, I was chatting with the minister, and he goes off on how "tongues have ceased." I could tell he had given that "message" a million times. Then my wife walks up, and I tried to warn him, and change the subject, but he was already "in motion," and could not stop.

Things were going fairly well at this new congregation until that night.

Now it seems, that was the end of that!

Now ... I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter ... to me it's a non-issue,

Her last meeting in the LC was when the elder out of the blue mocked all tongue-talkers. What could he do, that's how he was trained.

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.

Originally Posted by OBW

And does this mean that those that are not "evangelical" are simply not Christians? I know you don't mean that. But are we still caught in an us v them when we dismiss Christians outside of evangelicalism? Are we a little more inclusive than the LC, but still short of the goal?

Of course, the statistic is what it is. It is phrased the way it is. Not much we can so with that.

Originally Posted by Ohio

By "down the middle" I heard that just about 50% of all evangelical Christians are Pentecostal. Not my stats, just what I heard.

Originally Posted by Ohio

They have their verses too:

Originally Posted by YP0534

I don't believe this is "neutral" with regard to Paul's teaching on how to have tongues in the Christian meeting, is it?

"I would rather" doesn't seem "neutral" at all to me but is kind of expressly taking a position.

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I read Paul, I see a neutral position. When others read Paul they only see the verses they like.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now I feel I may be roasted next. My wife doesn't want to go back.

Originally Posted by aron

Ohio,

seems like that fellowship has a standing litmus test regarding tongues, with your friend the pastor acting as the gatekeeper. That test is probably a trojan horse for other control mechanisms, just as the LC litmus test of "the ground of oneness" became the facilitator of "the ministry" to reign.

So, what to say? A: it's a crying shame when christians can't greet one another in Christ, and leave it at that. Sorry you have to run into such.

B: Praise the Lord, and move on. Like I said, I suppose there are lots of other things lurking behind the "tongues" issue, and it's promulgator, that you met.

But I would warrant that if you are a believer on the earth, there is fellowship waiting for you. The Lord has prepared it for you. He is rich to all who call on His name.

Originally Posted by YP0534

I doubt it's the middle, Ohio! LOL

Paul gives explicit instructions on how to handle it in a meeting. I'm neither for nor against for my own part but if you're going to do it different from the way the Bible says, that's the uphill battle to me.

Those who choose to ignore what Paul wrote because of their preferences and unsupported religious teachings they received are generally not acting in either wisdom or love for the rest if it's creating a problem. Ditto for those who make it an issue at all, though.

Mostly it's not easy to fellowship with someone about their tongues speaking, I've found. I never know what they're talking about.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Now Ohio... surely you don't think I was not going to throw in my .02 worth !

I have grabbled with this teaching too since every 'church' I've ever been to strongly believe in 'the baptism of the Holy Spirit' aka speaking in tongues.

Right now, I have to attend to other things. So I'll be back later to tackle the question.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now ... I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter ... to me it's a non-issue, like whether someone wants to celebrate their birthday. But to my wife ... if a minister is going to condemn all tongue-talkers ... roughly 50% of all professing evangelicals ... then ... well ... goodbye.

Her last meeting in the LC was when the elder out of the blue mocked all tongue-talkers. What could he do, that's how he was trained.

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.

Originally Posted by aron

I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together.

It is a gathering, a meeting, an assembly, a congregation. It is the coming together of those who have been called out of the world in Christ Jesus.

You can have an assembly on the road, on the beach, in the supermarket, at work, at home, at school, wherever the Lord has placed you and another believer who is able to receive you the same as you do they, in Christ.

In Christ there is no judgment. Mercy triumphs over judgment. We are all full of junk. So I don't judge yours and vice versa. Jesus didn't like the judgaholics.

One day I realized that whenever an unbeliever is next to me, is a chance for the gospel, the good news of Jesus. And whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

I am amazed, that when I don't get "all religious" with other believers, how quickly most of them will receive me in Christ Jesus. And the Lord promised, whenever two or more of us gather in His name, He will be there in the midst of us.

Originally Posted by OBW

not sure that we speak very clearly concerning Babylon. Besides the general statement in Revelation concerning "Babylon the Great," Babylon was not a choice. It was exile. They were taken to Babylon. They did not sell their chalet in Bethlehem and load the Mayflower moving van and decide that Babylon seemed like a good place to go. No. God allowed the Babylonians to take the Israelites captive and take them away.

Originally Posted by OBW

The way we speak about Babylon, it is somewhere we choose to be. A place of our own making.

Originally Posted by OBW

Now it is true that not all went back to Jerusalem when the first edict for their release came. But those that stayed behind were not spoken of as fallen Jews. In fact, unless I remember my stories incorrectly, at least one of the significant leaders was willfully serving the King of Babylon/Persia when he came to know that the ones that did go back were having trouble. A righteous man living almost as part of the household of a pagan king was called to get the "remnant" back on track. No chastisement for not having already gone back. No quarantine to make sure he was going to go along with things in Jerusalem.

Originally Posted by OBW

And at least partly the result of the Jews that did not go back from the various captivities, there were Jews all over the known world ready for Philip, Peter, Paul, John, and others to speak to throughout Asia and even into Europe as the church spread.

Originally Posted by OBW

Lee said it. And it was so. (And there was much rejoicing — and popcorn testimonies.)

Originally Posted by aron

Ending up in the wilderness is a good place. When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.

At least in the wilderness you know where you are.

Originally Posted by aron

So I dropped my burden, and his new interest became our theme. He became, for a while, the featured speaker, and I dropped into a supporting role. And a couple of my supporting points pleased us both immensely. They were delivered, impromptu, by my "intuition", or a random search of my memory banks, or the Holy Spirit Himself, who knows?

Originally Posted by YP0534

I just recently saw clearly that 1 Cor. 13 comes between chapters 12 and 14.

The "Love Chapter" is all about how we meet.

Paul says to stop being childish and to start meeting in love.

Originally Posted by aron

Then, and here's an interesting point, you realize how much the Shepherd loved His sheep. The hireling flees from the wolf, but the Good Shepherd lays down His life for His sheep. Jesus knew that one of them would betray Him, but He stuck with His own, nevertheless, literally to the death.

Contrast that to our experience in the LC where we received a "vision" of the optimal organizational structure, and were willing to follow that to the end, but the saints themselves were quite expendable.

In reality, I am beginning to suspect that the "ekklesia" is that poor, pathetic guy next to me, who is seeking Christ, but hardly knows where to turn, and which way is up or down. The "ekklesia-building" occurs when I receive my neighbor in Christ Jesus and it is reciprocated, and we begin to sense the depth of the Shepherd's care for His sheep.

Originally Posted by aron

I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together.

It is a gathering, a meeting, an assembly, a congregation. It is the coming together of those who have been called out of the world in Christ Jesus.

You can have an assembly on the road, on the beach, in the supermarket, at work, at home, at school, wherever the Lord has placed you and another believer who is able to receive you the same as you do they, in Christ.

In Christ there is no judgment. Mercy triumphs over judgment. We are all full of junk. So I don't judge yours and vice versa. Jesus didn't like the judgaholics.

One day I realized that whenever an unbeliever is next to me, is a chance for the gospel, the good news of Jesus. And whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

I am amazed, that when I don't get "all religious" with other believers, how quickly most of them will receive me in Christ Jesus. And the Lord promised, whenever two or more of us gather in His name, He will be there in the midst of us.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

You bet our GOD is going to reward and bless my friend who took extra good care of me !

Originally Posted by aron

Ending up in the wilderness is a good place.

Originally Posted by manna-man

Where did everybody go? Is it to exspensive to participate here? Is the cost too high?

Originally Posted by aron

Ending up in the wilderness is a good place. When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

When I got tired of the Lee adulation, I had to leave because how in the world was I going to stand up and express my observation ? But I found a small bunch from my locality who felt like I did but were quiet about it. They moved to a new locality and I tagged along.

Once there, everyone exploded with all kinds of stories about Lee and the church. We still loved the Lord and fellowship but all the venting also wiped us out so that before too long, everyone just went their separate ways. Including me. I felt lost at first but I did not want to go back to the LC as it was. I also had my own set of personal issues that I could not go to with anyone about.

Eventually.....it was just me and the LORD....in the wilderness.

Originally Posted by aron

I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together....whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think that it's hard for people like us, at our time in life, to find another church which would be satisfactory. We just see through too much "junk." Besides being an avowed "judgaholic," I guess I just have been thru too much.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I'm sooo glad you totally understand where I'm coming from manna-man ! What I am learning to do and it does take a heartfelt DISCIPLINE is simply pay close attention to the Word of God someone is teaching/preaching. Whether they live with they teach/preach is between them and God. I have a bible. I have the Holy Spirit to reveal the TRUTH, the Word of God but certainly God did appoint preachers/teachers/evangelists in our midsts...

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

As for the popcorn bucket...yes let's pass it around as an offering tool and then divide the goods among us all, or if we feel there is someone struggling beyond hope, then we give it to that person.

Originally Posted by manna-man

I miss the old Benny Hinn with the Hurricane styled hairdoo.

I used to rolaf! And then he'd blow someone over!
I'm in agreement with CMW, That boy can preach it when he wanna. There are so many things that bug me about that guy. But I've noticed( aside from the healing stuff) That when I close my eyes and listen to him, I find myself sitting up from my chair and wide eyed.

:justlurking: Hey when your done with that popcorn lets use the bucket for a special offering!

Originally Posted by Roger

The Local Church helped us to "see" all the "degradation" and unfortunately, once we have seen the degradation of the Local Church, it is the first "seeing" that becomes our greatest hindrance to fellowship. I guess that's what we used to call "wrecked outright."

P.C.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

When Benny Hinn was in town, he pulverized Joel Osteen without mentioning his name. But we all knew who he was talking about. He said to 'Osteen': GET OUT OF THE MINISTRY if you can't say JESUS is the only way to heaven, (making reference to when Osteen was on Larry King). If you can't talk about Repentance and the Blood of Jesus, you have NO BUSINESS to be in the ministry.

I know a lot of people don't like Benny but when he's TEACHING..and I mean TEACHING, he's an awesome teacher ! Really. And yes, there are things I don't like about him..BELIEVE YOU ME ! I got to meet him on stage and I saw him lose his temper with his staff because the mic wasn't working.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I like Joyce Meyers, and I know she has helped many sisters, but I read an article by the St. Louis newspaper reporter about their extravagant lifestyle and growing fortune, with an annual revenue (several years ago) of ~$100M.

Is this why Paul wrote, "I know how to abound?"

My wife and I have a little disagreement about whether ministers need their own private jets.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Ohio THANK YOU for such a GREAT RESPONSE !! I especially Laughed out Loud at your comment: Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. Oh and at one church, they give a 20 minute sermon on Malachi 3:16 I believe it is...robbing God with your tithes.

Originally Posted by awareness

I believe the Mega-churches would beg to disagree with you. John Hagee, making more than 1.2 million a year, and his family members making plenty too, would also disagree with you.

I guess Jesus was wrong. You can serve both God and mammon.

Originally Posted by manna-man

Originally Posted by manna-man

Ohio, Yes we should make known our needs to God. Definitely. Yet it is practical for a shepherd to share what The Lord has put in his heart and leave it to the leading of the Spirit to convict and lead His sheep.

Awareness, No doubt, as Ohio pointed out earlier, some ministries do go overboard. Yet you can't deny Pastor Hagee and how he is benefitting his fold The Lord has put him over.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. The final straw for us was the altar call (following some sharing on Gen. 50.20), and as some went forward, the minister said there were buckets available to "sow seeds" of $20 and $50.

I do believe one of the corruptive forces at work is the transition from a church to a ministry. This happened in the LC's and that community church we visited. Initially, the ministers served the church acc. to the needs of the flock, but later the church began to exist for the building up of the man's ministry. The church thus becomes a business. It is run like a business. People exist only for the furtherance of the business.

This is why the Bible has so many warnings for leaders. LC leaders failed us miserably. Eventually I had to accept the inevitable conclusion that my LC only existed for the LSM and later for TC's work. Real churches have shepherds that place the flock first. Ministries have workers that place the business first. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which until finances get tight. Then the true colors become evident.

Originally Posted by awareness

I believe the Mega-churches would beg to disagree with you. John Hagee, making more than 1.2 million a year, and his family members making plenty too, would also disagree with you.

I guess Jesus was wrong. You can serve both God and mammon.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Bible does say, "let your requests be made known to God." I do believe, for the most part, that churches must learn to operate within a budget that their offerings provide.

Originally Posted by manna-man

Great post Ohio,
Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to simply let the congregation know what the needs were rather than to push the seed offering? It is biblical to make our needs known for God will meet the need through His people that is if there is no flesh involved.

Peace, and have a good and Godly day!

Originally Posted by Ohio

I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. The final straw for us was the altar call (following some sharing on Gen. 50.20), and as some went forward, the minister said there were buckets available to "sow seeds" of $20 and $50.

I do believe one of the corruptive forces at work is the transition from a church to a ministry. This happened in the LC's and that community church we visited. Initially, the ministers served the church acc. to the needs of the flock, but later the church began to exist for the building up of the man's ministry. The church thus becomes a business. It is run like a business. People exist only for the furtherance of the business.

This is why the Bible has so many warnings for leaders. LC leaders failed us miserably. Eventually I had to accept the inevitable conclusion that my LC only existed for the LSM and later for TC's work. Real churches have shepherds that place the flock first. Ministries have workers that place the business first. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which until finances get tight. Then the true colors become evident.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Here's where I struggle in a big way: The 'church' has become a business. Today, while I can appreciate a good teaching, many, many pastors/preachers/teachers conduct their church affairs as a business. They train you to become a leader in the church but there are contracts to sign. That is why they emphasize tithes and offerings soo much... to a FAULT. I don't see the church being conducted as a 'business' in the NT. Am I missing something ?

Originally Posted by manna-man

So, a question to all of you.

What does it cost to follow Jesus in healthy way?
and
What didn't the LC members do to prevent todays current situation?
and
Who is responsible?

Originally Posted by manna-man

23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]The Cost?

What does it cost to be a Christian?