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| Introductions and Testimonies Please tell everybody something about yourself. Tell us a little. Tell us a lot. Its up to you! |
Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 12-01-2016 09:41 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| countmeworthy |
Re: I've Been Thinking Quote:
Say.. looks like you changed your name to 'Lost at sea'. Very interesting name... perhaps you already know that the word sea in the bible actually means 'world'. So you are lost in the world??  Welcome aboard!! You aren't alone!!! Quote:
When I first started reading my bible..Colossians 4:5-6 really spoke to me Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person. When I read those scriptures, I began asking the LORD to help me, to teach me how to conduct myself..how to speak to people, to grant me Wisdom on how to respond to people especially when they pluck my very last nerve! I've stumbled a few times but God is pretty good about dusting me off. His Spirit and His Word are really Great Teachers. That of course is my own personal experience. And btw.. back in 1975, the LC read from the KJ and the NASB. We were encouraged to read the scriptures on our own as well as with each other in homes and in the meetings. The RcV translation was just starting to wiggle it's way in. I left in 1978 so a lot of what you and most people here on this forum have been through stuff I can't really relate to but can imagine because I had a TASTE of what you and everyone here have been through. Quote:
You know what king David said to the Lord one day? He said: If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol (hell), behold, You are there. There is an actual place called hell btw. It's in the center of the earth. People have gone to the moon and back but no person has ever climbed down to the center of the earth due to the heat of lava and fire. We know that there is lava and fire and unbearable heat because hell sometimes throws up through volcanoes. Incidentally.. hell and the lake of fire are 2 different places. Just know they are not one and the same. But I won't go there for now. There is another type of hell... and yes sometimes earth is HELL! When we play the depressing broken records in our heads and we enter a state of depression.. it IS HELL!! There was a time I felt I worked IN HELL for 6 long years ! But I GOT SET FREE FROM THAT HELL HOLE!! THANK YOU LORD JESUS !!! (sorry if that offended you. JESUS IS MY GOD and I make no apologies for thanking Him..for saving me..for delivering me..)Quote:
But I did love hearing the stories about Jesus. And I did pray to Him in my own way..being real with Him. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and never knew Jesus could live in me and guide me, direct my path through His Spirit. I also saw the HIPPOCRACY of the religious bunch from priests and nuns to the Catholic people. But like you, I could only question things I saw and did not like to myself. Btw, that same thing happened to me when I was in the LC. Remember I said the day the leaders told us to say THE LORD'S DAY instead of Sunday, I knew the religious spirits had infiltrated the LC AND the Spirit of Christ had left. Did you ever read Revelation 2? Jesus rebukes the Ephesians for doing everything 'right' but they loved their 'works' and their 'zealousness' more than HIM. Their works and zealousness for God's work became their idol, their god. I WANTED TO SAY SOMETHING when they told us that! What happened to hating religion?? Again, like you, I had no liberty to ask them. I knew it would not be long before I'd be labeled as 'rebellious'.. or at best have a gazillion people start blurting out 'O LORD JEEEEEESUS' to shut me up. Quote:
So... just so you know ... there are at least 3 voices we sometimes hear in our heads. Some people hear more than 3 voices but we won't go there. The 3 voices are: YOUR OWN VOICE... such as 'hmmm... do I HAVE TO do that?? Do I HAVE to pay my bills, go to work, go to school, clean house etc. The 2nd Voice is God's Voice. And I gave you an example. Sometimes His Voice is very clear. I will tell you something I find funny. God the Holy Spirit has YELLED at me!!... not to get mad at me but just to make sure I HEARD HIM LOUD AND CLEAR! And the 3rd voice is the devil's voice. You may say you don't believe in the devil since you don't (think) you believe in God. If you don't believe in God, then you can't believe in the devil. If there's a north, there's a south. If there's an east there's a west. If God exists, so does the devil. If God does not exist, neither does the devil. But if the devil does not exist, then how can there be evil? What makes a person become violent ? a serial killer?..pure evil?? ok.. moving right along... Quote:
Do you realize the spirit of PRIDE, the downfall of Lucifer slitthered itself in (again or grew stronger) with the insistence that the RcV was more 'special' than the other translations? If you've ever gone to Barnes and Noble..and have checked out the bible shelves, you won't find the 'Mormon bible', 'the Jehovah Witness' bible or the RcV bible. I do think you can buy the RcV off Amazon but why is it not sold at B&N??? Hmmm.... nor at any other Christian book store??? HMMMM. Quote:
I have a neighbor who is a very sweet man..very helpful..a very nice neighbor. He & his wife are diehard Catholics. In fact he studied for several years to become a deacon in the church. We have talked about the LORD and prayed together.. or at least I have prayed out loud with him for him when he has shared some of his concerns. Not patting myself on my back.. all Praise belongs to GOD Who uses me for His Glory...but he has on more than one occasion told me how I have blessed him. Now his duties as a deacon is to give a message during a mass, officiate at funerals, and assist the 'priest' in whatever way he can. Why am I telling you this?? There is a POINT... one day, I asked him how he was feeling as he has some health issues. He said this to me: " Not really great.. If the Lord calls me home, I'm ready. I JUST HOPE I GO TO HEAVEN!!!' Really??? He doubted his salvation??? Stupid Roman Catholic church!! They are going to PAY for their wrong teachings !!! Quote:
Several years ago, an LC sister came to Texas to go 'churching'.. visited several 'localities'. She was one I was friends with back in the day but while we got along ok after we reconnected, I had a really hard time with her LSM garbage talk. She'd send me cds from the meetings by the 'blended brothers'. I would TRY to listen to them but couldn't get past the first 5 minutes !! She'd send me all those booklets and I'd glance at them and threw them all out. I'd get a SICK FEELING even just glancing at them !!! I'm telling you.. there is a wrong, deceptive spirit in that place!! Then I took her to an LC location. Met a few of the LSMrs there, and a picture was taken. They all chanted 'O LORD JEEESUS'. i REFUSED to chant with them!! And I LOVE MY KING AND LORD JESUS!!! But no way was I going to chant with them !! It's a different spirit. You know why I believe I'm a chosen one?? Because my bible says so!! It also says I am a king and priest !! (Revelation 1:6 and 5:10) I may not feel like I am but I SURE BELIEVE IT AND RECEIVE IT! GLORY AND PRAISE TO GOD with Thanksgiving!! I don't care if people believe I'm chosen or not?? And neither should you!! GOD IS SPEAKING TO YOU! HE is the One Who is making you see through religion and HE HATES RELIGION!! HE HATES 'CHRISTIANITY'. IT IS A MAN MADE RELIGION. You know what makes you an 'overcomer'? The Blood of the Lamb and the Word of your testimony. (Revelation 12:10-11) Right now.. your testimony is you don't believe in God. But you are SEEKING THE TRUTH and you WILL BE LED TO THE TRUTH. Quote:
 If I did not pray/call on the name of the lord and 'get saved', my intuition told me that it was just best to get it over with to avoid conflict... because somehow... I knew that saying 'I'm not ready' would not be well-received. I would not be understood...I had to go with the flow. How is a 12 yr old going to convince a 30/40 yr old lady?? (I have no idea how old she was, only that she was pushy and forceful...whether she knew it or not, I don't know). Perhaps she was just being well-meaning...but I knew she would not understand my readiness. So I was saved and baptised but did it for the wrong reasons, yet at the same time for the right reasons for my own sake. I wanted to be left alone, you know...like when someone finally makes a false confession after hours of questioning and just wants to go home. Well, I had enough discord at home, I had enough discord at the lc piano...how my playing wasn't edifying and up to par with a 35 yr old for children's meeting so I had a problem with two serving ones regarding their unhappiness....yet because they were always short of pianists...were always coming to me to 'serve'....I'm serving ...I'm only 12...a couple years later, I would intentionally not show up.. I know ...it wasn't nice or the right thing to do...but every time I played...it wasn't good enough and I was told so and berated. Where else did I feel that? In the summer school of truth...in a circle...calling on the name of the lord... Not performing well/good enough. I quickly learned that in this church, I was not appreciated. And that would also show when we prayed...when I shared/prophesied. That I couldn't understand the life lessons...that I couldn't grasp this high knowledge...I couldn't grasp the language/jargon....I just accepted it at face value that I just had to stick it out. Quote:
You weren't appreciated?? NO ONE IS APPRECIATED IN THE LC unless they are 'yes men'.. 'Witness Lee yes men'. Example... do you know, remember John Ingalls?? He was a close co worker of Witness Lee, as was Max Rappaport. (I wonder if they were ever friends... ) The entire WORLD WIDE LC community loved and revered these 2 guys until they stood up to Lee. Then they were ostricised by all the stupid die hard sheeple who were followers of LEE. Those who loved them truly, either kept their mouths shut and 'suffered quietly' for the sake of staying in good standing with the LSM OR they left. And leaving is not easy!! You are programmed to believe there is nothing better out there. You don't know how to make friends. Even CHRISTIAN people won't understand what you went through. They are in their own world too !! Quote:
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HATE is an emotion. A very strong emotion. God hates evil and wickedness. That's the only time He expresses or talks about HATE. GOD'S real Name is LOVE. People will spit in His Face and He extends Mercy. He is Patient because He knows His adversary is brainwashing people to hate Him, to doubt Him, to blame HIM for their problems. Quote:
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He never expressed or showed any love for anyone!! I don't even think he loved his Lord and King!!! I'm telling you... consider what Jesus said to the Ephesians: “I know all the things you do. I have seen your hard work and your patient endurance. I know you don’t tolerate evil people. You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars. 3 You have patiently suffered for me without quitting. 4 “But I have this complaint against you. You don’t love me or each other as you did at first! 5 Look how far you have fallen! Turn back to me and do the works you did at first. If you don’t repent, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches. [/B] And look at you !! Being a blessing by playing the piano to that little group of people in your backyard !! I pray, hope and BELIEVE YOU are going to experience and feel a lot of LOVE in the days to come. Be prepared to shed a tear or two.. or maybe even a bucket of tears! May the God of LOVE embrace you and fill your heart with inner peace, the Peace of GOD which only you will understand and experience and KNOW intimately. Then you will understand what I am talking about.. not just me but most of us here on this forum as well. Your friend, Carol |
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| 12-01-2016 06:36 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| countmeworthy |
Re: I've Been Thinking Quote:
 Carol |
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| 12-01-2016 06:34 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| countmeworthy |
Re: I've Been Thinking Quote:
Quote:
WHA' HAPPENED??? You know when I knew Lee and his yes men had kicked God out? When they told us not to refer the 1st day of the week as Sunday anymore. It was now to be referred to as 'the Lord's day'. They kicked Christ out and welcomed with open arms the pharisees and Sadducees !! Quote:
That's what I wanted ! And for a short while in that environnment I did feel loved and God DID rescue me. |
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| 11-30-2016 08:17 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| JJ |
Re: I've Been Thinking "Lost at Sea" and tentmaker_21, a belated thanks for joining us, and sharing your experiences. I'm praying that you find participation here to be helpful. JJ |
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| 11-30-2016 09:56 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| tentmaker |
Re: I've Been Thinking The initial post was the main factor for me joining this board. I know others who have and are going through similar things. If the original poster is viewing this, please consider the fellowship brother UntoHim just gave you. It won't hurt you any .... |
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| 11-29-2016 07:09 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| UntoHim |
Re: I've Been Thinking Quote:
As I was considering what to insert into the verse of the day module on the forum homepage, I thought of your post last night. I immediately was reminded about the Gospel story of "a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years" (Luke 8:43-48) I usually don't post such a large portion of scripture, but the moral of the story is lost if you only read a couple of the verses. There are several strikingly unique aspects to this Gospel story. One unique aspect is this is the only instance of someone trying to get healing from Jesus unawares. Another unique aspect is Jesus' reaction. He had healed hundreds, maybe thousands of people up until this time, and yet this time he proclaimed "I perceive that power has gone out from me". This admission was as strange as it was unique. The third unique aspect is at the end of the story, he addresses the woman as "daughter" - The only woman in Scripture that Jesus addressed as “daughter.” He did not call her “daughter of Abraham” nor “daughter of Jerusalem.” He did not call her “woman,” a bland and generic label, which he even used to address his own mother. He called her “daughter.” His daughter. An endearing term. A term of relationship. Before I lose you, I'll try to quickly tie this particular miraculous healing into your situation. This woman could have blamed God for her dreadful disease. Instead, she risked suffering further humiliation and rejection, and went all out to just make contact with the fringe of Jesus' garment. It was, almost literally, a leap of faith. This show of incredible faith did not go unnoticed by Jesus. In fact, he made an example out of her on purpose. But, unbeknownst to her, she was about to receive a bigger reward than getting healed from her 12 year long disease. She gained an eternal relationship with her creator, her God. He called her "daughter". No person, no thing, no circumstance no disease could EVER take that away from her. Back to what Carol posted: Quote:
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| 11-28-2016 05:27 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| Lost at Sea |
Re: I've Been Thinking UntoHim... mmm.... It's a threatening warning. I think the second part of what Carol said is true... then things got really messed up... and I don't really know... or understand... the why, what, how.... OnHisPath.... As for having possible ptsd symptoms... yes, I have been diagnosed with having ptsd as well as a psychotic depressive disorder.... I just have to be in a neighborhood with houses on a block...like Saturday I was walking to the bank... I look at the houses, the steps, the front doors and the first thing that comes to mind is not "oh, it's another house"...what comes to mind is me 12 years old with two LC members that I know who are on fire for the L--d going door-knocking... all the rejection that went along with it... and the strangeness of entering a total stranger's home...and also have the pressure to share my testimony/experience of the L--d when I had none to give/say. It made me feel really uncomfortable and anxious... to have to lie. It made me really uncomfortable to have to talk to a total stranger. I told them I couldn't... they said to try anyways... I said I really couldn't and again they said to try... So now all eyes (8 eyeballs) are on me... waiting... it was such long silence that i started crying... then the other two finally talked to the unbeliever(s)... but in my mind... total strangers. I did not know whose home I was going into. I was taught not to go into people's homes and to not talk to total strangers. When jw's come around a-knocking, 2 grownups with a kid, I see myself as that kid. And when I think about it, I feel sad... and mad... and used... a pawn for others' benefit and agenda. Like my purpose was really to make our group look safe because a kid was in tow. On top of that... I'm wearing a white blouse/top and a blue skirt... why???? And then when I see a jw kid in the same attire, I think of door-knocking... then I think of the summer school of truth where that attire was required for the girls (of course the guys had the privileged option of wearing nice jeans that I decided to try that one day...and, boy, did I get reprimanded for it)...and I HAD to sit in a particular seat and act a certain way... pray a certain way... pray-read a certain way... very mechanical and unnatural... and when I prayed.. I thought it really rude and uncourteous to be interrupted with "A--n's" before I finished a sentence... before I finished my prayer. It made me feel really uncomfortable. The whole atmosphere made me uncomfortable. The whole everything made me feel uncomfortable. The J-word makes me shudder to this day. So does G-d... Ch--st... C--rch... Sp--it... Ha------jah.... "O L--- J----"... "Ch--st and the C---rch"..... L--- J-----.... J---- Ch--st.... sove---gn is one that I hadn't heard or thought about in 15 years since I walked out the lc until UntoHim used it in the above posts. When I saw it... it stung. I have to block it out... and go bleep-bleep. Basically anything and everything I have to go bleep-bleep. My face freezes or I feel great dread. I've made some progress though... I've been able to function in the real world... I'm happy... or rather happ-ier... In the LC I never could naturally smile...it was always a fake or forced smile... but out here I came alive. I'm more my natural self... but still have a long ways to go in getting in tune with myself and connecting with the world. I'm even able now to walk into four different church buildings... but only these four... one Methodist, one Presbyterian.... one CMA... and one Lutheran. It's progress... and I can tolerate the hymns as most of them are tunes I've never heard of. Familiar tunes are harder to tolerate along with the words. Forget about the sermon... I have suicidal thoughts while listening to the sermon... because I feel like I'm in the LC... even though I know I am not physically... Every word spoken and heard then was an individual lash across my face... every shout as well... shaking finger and fist.... causing me to feel numb and have morbid thoughts or stabbed in the heart. I didn't feel glorious or uplifted at all... I was dying in my mind, my heart and my spirit... spirit in the Merriam-Webster meaning. It's very difficult to dissociate from my conditioning... very hard for me to distinguish now what is real or not...what is true or not. I wouldn't find out how crazy I was until Sept. 15, 2004 when I was police escorted to the hospital and being evaluated before being hospitalized in the psych ward. One of the questions asked was "do you think you are another person other than yourself?". And I said, "yes, I'm God". Really, tell us more about this... how do you know this... How is it that you are God? "I learned it in church... We all believe this." Really? Everybody? "Yes, we all are becoming God... We are god-men... Half man and half God. Half man and half J---s. I'm becoming Ch---tlike. I will soon be J---s.". Really? "Yes... We are all little gods.". Really? "Yes, the Bible says so.... I have the same nature as him because I'm becoming him.". Next thing I know...I'm given an oral tranquilizer and a big shot in the arm that make me very drowsy... being transferred to another hospital in an ambulance... the shot was meant to knock me out and I wake up in the morning in the psych ward. I could have lived there the rest of my life.... I felt so safe from the confusing world with all its evils, but the staff told me I had to go back out... that I couldn't stay... that the longer I stayed in the ward... the harder it would be to adjust to the outside world. As if THEY really had a clue about me adjusting and living in this world. It's been 12 years now since that fateful day.... 12 more years than I had cared to live.... 12 extra years of trying to make it through this life... I don't know why I still feel like I have lc blood running thru my veins... with a messed up brain... living and walking around in a body that doesn't fully engage with the world around me... Sometimes not knowing what is reality and what is not.... It's been so long ago. Even my therapist asked me just last week... Is it really still a part of you? Why? Why, when others jaded or turned off have they been able to move on into the world, staying religious or not...? Are you sure it's still a part of you, that you've been so extremely affected... It's been so long ago... 15 years ago... Are you sure that it's not about letting go... because you can just like others have... You can decide right now to let go and just move on... you don't have to hold on anymore... I still think it is so engrained in my being and my thinking still... You would've thought I would've move on in life.... You would think that I would be able to just let go... I just don't understand... I really don't.... |
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| 11-28-2016 08:15 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| Former lc |
Re: I've Been Thinking I haven't had time to read all the comments, so maybe someone already addressed this. But you said, " I can talk to a therapist but they would probably never really understand me... what I was in... what life was like..." Don't assume a therapist won't understand. There are some really great therapists out there who can help you. You might want to look into a therapist who specializes in trauma recovery. There is a lot of overlap between what you described, and PTSD - flashbacks, for example. Also, there are therapists who specializes in overcoming abuse (such as abusive relationships), and again, there is overlap with your experience in the LC. You may even be able to locate a therapist who specializes in cult recovery. Even if you don't want to use the word "cult," the fact is that the LC is a totalitarian controlling group that can cause immense psychological and emotional harm. I strongly recommend that you look into therapy. It will help you, if you find a really good one. You might even seek out a Christian therapist, despite now being an atheist, because they can have insight into groups like the LC (there are a lot of them out there). But if a Christian therapist would rub you the wrong way, then there are plenty of secular ones who can help. Also, see if you can locate a support group for recovery from abuse, perhaps even specifically cultish groups. My church has a women's group like that, mainly made up of ex-Jehovah's Witnesses. Seek out help. You are not alone, and what you are going through is normal. But it really will benefit you to have someone you can trust, and open up all of your issues to. |
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| 11-24-2016 05:05 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| OnHisPath |
Re: I've Been Thinking Your post really touched me. I can identify with some of your struggles. Thankfully, I didn't grow up in the LC, but became involved with it at an impressionable age. I think I would have been much like you, taking everything literally and struggling greatly with interacting in my world. In fact, when I was trying to believe that the LC was the only way, I did do just that. To be honest, your childhood sounds like it was fairly traumatic. Even beyond the pressures of the LC, it sounds like your home life wasn't a respite, but rather had tensions of its own. Have you considered that you may be experiencing symptoms of ptsd? I am not a mental health professional, so take it with a grain of salt, but ptsd is what came to mind as I read your post. Good for you for seeking out therapy. |
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| 11-24-2016 02:42 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| Evangelical |
Re: I've Been Thinking Hi, you've been through a lot. God is very kind, compassionate and loving. Some people think like this - maybe I wasn't truly saved, was I really saved, maybe I wasn't. But there's really no such thing as true salvation and false salvation, in this life anyway. True salvation would be when we die and go to heaven. False salvation is when we think we will go to heaven and instead we go to hell. This is decided when d We are all human beings who have a good side and a dark side. We all need a Savior. There is only one way to guarantee we won't go to hell. Talk to God and ask Him to save you because of what Jesus did on the cross. Don't expect any answer or any feeling because God is invisible. But when you die you can be sure you will go to heaven and not hell because of what Jesus did 2000 years ago. God is everywhere, and we can see God in people, we can see God in nature, every bird, every tree. Thank God for making the birds and making the trees. Thank God for making you and me. Just go through life thanking God for various things, even the bad things, that come our way. And if we don't feel like it, we learn to thank Him anyway. This is the way to experience and know God. |
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| 11-24-2016 08:35 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| UntoHim |
Re: I've Been Thinking Sorry if my word about being under the sovereign will of God sounded threatening to you. I certainly did not want you to take it that way. None of us actually have the power to threaten or blame anyone. Besides, life if too short and too fragile to waste it in that manner. Unfortunately, this is what you took away from the false religion of the Local Church of Witness Lee. As I noted, their judgments are neither true nor righteous. This is the main reason that I brought forth those passages from the Gospel of John, where it plainly states that the Lord Jesus came not to condemn the world, but that the world may be saved through him. As far as "the sovereign will of God" is concerned, I would liken it to the law of gravity. We are certainly free to live within the law of gravity. In fact, it can be used for our benefit. We are also free to "disobey" the law of gravity, but we will suffer a consequence. I see someone in your position as standing at the precipice of a very high cliff. You are challenging the law of gravity at great peril. I am merely warning of the great peril you face. Would you call this threatening or condemning you? Take care my friend. I think Carol's post is spot on. You should consider what she has to say. - |
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| 11-23-2016 11:55 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| Lost at Sea |
Re: I've Been Thinking So it's been a couple of days since I last wrote... so where to begin? Okay, well firstly on my mind is that what UntoHim wrote about that I am not free of God's will sounds threatening to me... just saying that it's meant to threaten an atheist... That's like telling me that if I leave the LC church into the world or to one of THOSE churches out there, that bad things are going to happen to me or I'm going straight to hell. Mmm... I'll keep what I have now... So far nothing bad has happened outside his will if there even is a will...much less a God. I was scared as hell when I finally slipped away from the LC into the world. Evil me, evil people, evil world... Even an evil God who is going to chase/smite me. I don't think there can be anything worse than the hell experienced on this earth. If there even is such a place called hell. I'd say that in my mind it's hell, in my heart it's hell...can't be anything worse, and if there is no hell then I'll just die a natural death. Okay.. this is getting too morbid and I have to mind my depression-induced thoughts...so onto another topic... So I'm not really able to answer Carol's question... But I would think that the short answer would be 'no'. I think. Then again.. maybe it's 'yes'? Okay...I think the answer is more like 'maybe' or I'm not sure or I don't know. Okay...I think I will say not sure. Not really able to ask or answer questions just yet... I finally got used to hearing audibly my own voice 4 years ago, but can't voice my thoughts or have a face-to-face conversation... or more correctly a confrontation, BUT...I found that as much as it's hard to think and ask questions, writing is good for the soul and I found that I can think through my thoughts and question things without fear by writing! Anyway... Back to when I was 12. I seem to have very good memories of being in church before 1985/1986... I think it was until summer/fall of 1986. I remember children's meeting...and everything was normal. Then I get this 'special' NT Bible. Now I've seen my mother read the kjv at home...but other than that I have seen or heard of no other Bible... But this special rcv seemed like it was of more importance than one that's not rcv. I felt so privileged and so special that I was going to the one and only true church in NY and I owned a better Bible than anybody outside and how special we all were because we are in the lords recovery and the only ones on earth who are truly going to heaven. But yet at the same time I was going to hell because I wasn't progressing as an overcomer. Well the sad thing is that I truly believed that I wasn't a chosen one because...firstoff I only called on the name of the lord because the one who was saving me I did not like as a person in the first place because she was always on my case about other things like the morning watch sheet and experience sheet and why I didn't hand it in or when i did, why it was always blank. I somehow knew that she and others went to the Anaheim training and the exuberance turned me off. I quickly learned how to protect myself... and that this lords recovery thing that was amidst would be a big force for me to contend with. I quickly learned how to be sly and lie...in self-defense. If I did not pray/call on the name of the lord and 'get saved', my intuition told me that it was just best to get it over with to avoid conflict... because somehow... I knew that saying 'I'm not ready' would not be well-received. I would not be understood...I had to go with the flow. How is a 12 yr old going to convince a 30/40 yr old lady?? (I have no idea how old she was, only that she was pushy and forceful...whether she knew it or not, I don't know). Perhaps she was just being well-meaning...but I knew she would not understand my readiness. So I was saved and baptised but did it for the wrong reasons, yet at the same time for the right reasons for my own sake. I wanted to be left alone, you know...like when someone finally makes a false confession after hours of questioning and just wants to go home. Well, I had enough discord at home, I had enough discord at the lc piano...how my playing wasn't edifying and up to par with a 35 yr old for children's meeting so I had a problem with two serving ones regarding their unhappiness....yet because they were always short of pianists...were always coming to me to 'serve'....I'm serving ...I'm only 12...a couple years later, I would intentionally not show up.. I know ...it wasn't nice or the right thing to do...but every time I played...it wasn't good enough and I was told so and berated. Where else did I feel that? In the summer school of truth...in a circle...calling on the name of the lord... Not performing well/good enough. I quickly learned that in this church, I was not appreciated. And that would also show when we prayed...when I shared/prophesied. That I couldn't understand the life lessons...that I couldn't grasp this high knowledge...I couldn't grasp the language/jargon....I just accepted it at face value that I just had to stick it out. Was it because I didn't know God/the Lord? Perhaps. Because I wasn't truly saved? Perhaps. Or was it that there was this unusual phenomenon? I tried as I might. I really tried, but while all my peers "got" what was being taught and were able to follow the gods economy and life lessons and what have you.. the outlines, I wasn't following.... I wasn't grasping... I felt left out... Really left out... Would extra help have help? Maybe. Tutoring? Maybe. Now that I think about it... I just wanted something that was easier to understand. Why all this hard stuff? Why all this higher truth? God must be really complicated... Too hard to understand.... I would later in 12th grade...have fights with my mother and refuse to go 5 days a week for two weeks to this summer school of truth. Which only caused hate and tension between my sister and I... She would hate me those years in Sst because she got the rap from the elders/serving ones .. where is your sister? Why isn't she here? I was having trouble keeping up in Sst.. and her hate for me would only grow through the years. Not only was I not keeping up, I didn't like sst because there in order to protect myself and go with the flow, I had to learn how to lie pretty quickly... To prepare something to testify just like my peers...from the outlines... From the life lessons... From god's economy and the truth lessons (it's been so long that I don't remember if the life lessons and truth lessons are the same or two things)... Had to just be like the others. Say two paragraphs...and something of substance. As if that wasn't bad enough (sharing/prophesying is not my God-give talent.... FAR from it)... I had to say it in front of "everyone"... AND make it believable that I enjoyed it... UGHHH!!!.... Only to either be looked at like...what did she say or only to hear one amen but often no Amen's. What I said was mostly met with dead silence. That was extremely humiliating.. Sst ...yp meeting... Friday night adult meeting... I'm a kid... making a fool of myself... at my humiliation... at the expense of my meager pride and small confidence... I knew who I was...where I stood... I was dumb... I was the least of everyone... just trying to keep up... survive... all this terminology, language, phrases... God was not near... and I don't think it had anything to do with my false salvation. You would "think" that I would at least be able to understand _something_. I did. I do catch on to some major points. All other churches are Babylon/whore. We are the true church. We are the overcomers in this gravely sinful world. Don't leave the church or bad things will happen to you like get run over by a truck or in a car accident or an earthquake or a flood... or a mudslide. The triune god... 3 in 1. God became incarnate Jesus...who then became the life-giving spirit. Boy would I be in for a rude awakening when I visited over 30 churches on Long Island post-lc. The triune god is not the world's Trinity. Modalism vs. Trinity. Oh... But it's different because all the other churches are evil and have wrong doctrine. They don't have the rcv.... which I would soon later learn that the hymns and rcv verses were revised to fit the lc theology... Spirit's changed to spirit's... and vice versa. To fit our moralistic view of the Trinity. Pastors out here told me... No, lost-at-sea... God did NOT turn into Jesus who then turned into the Spirit... And they showed me the verse in the NIV Bible where the dove is over Jesus when he got baptised (I think... I haven't touched a Bible in about 15 years). It's not like water where an ice cube turns into water which turns into water vapor. Every church out here believes that except the LC! Huh???? No wonder they are degraded!!!!! I searched for a church out here and for God visiting over 30 churches in one year. I finally gave up... on church... and on God. I never measured up in the LC anyways. I knew I was the least of the whole church group. I tried. I really tried. But my spirit was killed in every respect. It didn't matter. Even my piano playing/serving... was judged... so hurt me that I wouldn't play in a church for 20 years. Although there are many dear saints in the lc I was at, the one emotion that I didn't feel ... is love or appreciation. I only started feeling it 3 years ago... playing the piano again... for a small community church in my backyard.... yeah... one of "those" degraded churches down the road. They tell me that I am such a blessing... I don't do it for show....or for admiration... just from the heart... to help the small strugglingchurch... to help me at the same time who has my own struggles. But yeah... in some small way... it's a taste of heaven... and a once unappreciated God-given talent has been revived for his glory. Where the LC wanted huge fancy chords and loud edifying playing... where I am, I just play light-honestly from the heart.... and I've heard that God knows people's hearts.... |
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| 11-22-2016 08:27 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| countmeworthy |
Re: I've Been Thinking Hi UR, I'm an old timer here but don't pop in very much these days. First off, you are not the only person who has left the LC and it's environment and became an 'atheist'. You appear to me hurt, confused, possibly angry but otherwise HEALTHY. You have a strong mind that is asking questions, that is trying to sort things out and trying to get the religious mindset out of your head. That's a great start!!! There is one thing I did not get from your post. That is did GOD ever reveal HIMSELF to YOU personally. I know you were taught to believe, to call on the Name of the Lord, to fellowship etc... but if you don't believe God is real I think it means He has not 'appeared' to you and pulled you to Himself. If HE has but you can only associate HIM with being connected with the LC or any Christian religion, I can understand your frustration and so does HE. I have a tendency to yak, yak yak.. so I will stop here. I hope you find the answers you seek in your heart. I can assure you that on this forum you are free to vent out your frustrations, to ask any questions..to be yourself. May the GLORY LIGHT OF LOVE heal your heart and answer all your questions guiding you to inner peace. Carol |
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| 11-21-2016 07:32 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| HERn |
Re: I've Been Thinking You will salvage a life of peace and love from the wreckage of the LC. You will live a decent human life. You will emerge from your suffering as a strong young woman. Give yourself time to grieve and be angry. Where you are is no accident. I love you my atheist sister! Be strong! |
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| 11-21-2016 07:06 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| aron |
Re: I've Been Thinking Quote:
Quote:
Now some obviously have glorious spiritual experiences from just such scenarios. But how many exit, wounded, reeling, confused? They've been primed since the crib that mankind is hopeless apart from God; suddenly the "magic moment" is supposed to appear and it doesn't. So their conditioning says that all hope is gone; they're faced with the abyss. The first responsibility of the doctor is to "do no harm", but if the spiritual hospital, the church, causes such damage to so many in its care, I question what it's doing, really. Don't get me wrong, I remain a card-carrying fundamentalist believer, of the "evangelical" type and stripe. But this kind of herding children into a circle and getting them to bawl out a special word, even the name of Jesus, and think that this will usher them into God is not only ridiculous but harmful. I bet a huge proportion of kids exited the system with an outlook similar to the one writing here: confused, frustrated, angry, ashamed, embittered. But the cookie-cutter systems don't care. As long as they get a few acolytes they don't care about the "collateral damage." If they ruin 15, and one becomes a smiling devotee, they'll take it. It's simply the cost of doing business. |
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| 11-21-2016 06:31 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| UntoHim |
Re: I've Been Thinking Nor worries Unregistered Guest! This boat is in some serious need of rocking anyway, so its all good. Feel free to register when you get a minute. - |
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| 11-21-2016 03:26 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| aron |
Re: I've Been Thinking Quote:
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| 11-20-2016 09:40 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| Unregistered |
Re: I've Been Thinking Untohim... I'm sorry to have rocked the boat...I meant no harm at all and did not mean to come across as harsh. I was just writing down my thoughts, not blaming anyone or expecting to get into a debate or fight or have anyone take sides. I'll be more careful and sensitive in the future. Again I'm sorry... Glad that you and others have moved on... and don't want to mess that up for you and everyone here or bring up bad memories... |
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| 11-20-2016 07:07 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| UntoHim |
Re: I've Been Thinking My friend, As you may recall (or maybe not) one of the enduring themes in the teachings of Witness Lee was "Christ versus religion" (also the name of Lee's seminal work of the same title) The simple truth is that what Christ is "versus", or against as it were, is not religion per se, but false religion. The tragic irony is that Lee and his followers have initiated and developed a religious system with some of the most dogmatic set of teachings and practices ever known in recent Christian history. Unfortunately, you were caught up at a very early age in this religious system of error, and suffered the worst affects of these dogmatic teachings and practices. My heart goes out to you, my friend, and I really admire and wonder at your courage and intestinal fortitude to come and post what you have. You have laid your soul bare, and frankly we are not used to such a display of raw emotions around this place. Though many, if not most, of us on this forum were wounded in some form or fashion, we have heard and seen so much over the past decades, and have been airing out and hashing out these matters online for the better part of the last decade, many of us have become somewhat hardened and jaded. Your heartfelt posting has probably caught many of us a little off guard. So, as it turns out, it is a good thing to be free from the false religion of the Local Church of Witness Lee. This forum is filled with the testimonies of many who have been freed as well. I must tell you, however, that you have not been freed from being subjected to the sovereign will of the God of the Bible, the Creator of Heaven and Earth. This is a very hard concept to grasp for someone like you who has experienced the very worst of what false religion, and the purveyors of false religion, have to offer. Most false religions make a claim that if you follow them you will be "in God's best". Well, I can't blame someone like you who says "if this is what God's best has to offer, then I want nothing to do with God or what he is offering". But you see, I would be doing you a great disservice if I didn't advise you that it matters not what I or anyone else here would blame you or not blame you for. Most of us around here are...mmm, I'll use my favorite politically correct term...Oldies but Goodies. Our consciences are far too busy dealing with the blame we have to deal with to blame someone like you for anything you believe, no longer believe, or conclusions you have come to. I'm sure you are very familiar with John 3:16. "For God so loved the world...". I must tell you now, the verse immediately following, 3:17, is infinitely more important for someone in your position. "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.". There is a related passage later in the Gospel of John: "I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me." (8:16,17) The sovereign will of God includes the worst news and best news for man. The worst news is we will be judged by God. The best news is that we will be judged by God. You have suffered the judgments of false religion. They mean nothing and will never mean anything. Their judgments are neither true nor righteous. You are not subject to their false and unrighteous judgments. There is a Righteous Judge who WILL eventually judge in truth and righteousness...however... We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. (1 John 2:1) - |
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| 11-20-2016 02:56 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| Unregistered |
Re: I've Been Thinking Thanks everyone for posting. Aron, I feel like you so understand and get me. |
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| 11-20-2016 10:56 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| aron |
Re: I've Been Thinking Remember that great art comes from tragedy. Your voice needs to be heard, as much as anyone else's. Your example of getting herded into a ring & coerced into a religious indoctrination ritual at age 12 is case in point why the LC is not a good thing. Instead of letting you find your own mountaintop, they pushed you into their abyss. But you still have life, hope, and most importantly, a choice. The LC are masters of coercion and shaming. But you're designed to be free - believe it, this innate power to perceive, and freedom to choose will be yours. Lastly, we're all logical creatures. I mean, what is a world without meaning, or sense? So think about your situation for a minute. You grew up isolated from experience. The world was evil, Christianity was evil, society and culture were evil, you were evil, and your classmates likewise.. The only thing you were encouraged to experience for the first 15 years of your life was LC thought and culture. So of course you are going to be lost at sea! What I'm saying is, even though you physically got out, you're still experientially in the LC pit. Mentally, emotionally, relationally, behaviorally - you're still the product of your past. But the good news is, once you understand where you are, and who you are, you'll understand where you need to go, and how to get there. |
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| 11-20-2016 10:24 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| DistantStar |
Re: I've Been Thinking Quote:
A few months ago right after I left the LC, I started to have a discussion with another friend who was becoming an atheist after reading about evolution and Nietzsche. One midday as we walked he unloaded all the reasons he had for becoming an atheist on me. It shook me to the core. I could not answer him. It drove me to find answers. But I was months too late. As I walked to my flat after that discussion, I passed the LC. For a moment I stopped, looked at the church, and said "Damn you." Why? Because I realised that if this friend of mine which had all these questions were to go to them, that they would not have even wanted to give him answers. I mean, all the apologists of the day are just plain hypocrites in their eyes. I realised that if anything they would have given this friend of mine more reason to become an atheist. And for that I despise them. They are closed off, holier-than-thou and condescending. It is a real pity that you became an atheist. I haven't given up on this friend, and I never want to loose somebody to atheism again. Do yourself a favour and give Christ a real chance. Look at the work of modern apologists like William Lane Craig, John Lennox and Gary Habermas. Please don't discount God for your experience of a borderline cult, as the saying goes: "Don't throw out the baby with the water." P. S. I know it was wrong of me to curse them. |
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| 11-20-2016 08:56 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| Ohio |
Re: I've Been Thinking Welcome to the forum! Thanks for telling your story. There's nothing worse than the embarrassment of religious performances gone bad. I assume those folks meant well, but they should have been a little considerate of where you are at. I first found the Lord to be real while all alone in my bedroom late at night cracking open the Bible after a long day. A guy from work befriended me and gave me an easy-to-read paraphrased New Testament. Jesus met me where I was at, going quite a bit out of His way to do that. Being a self-conscious stage-fright kind of guy in my younger days, I could never have stood up front with all eyes on me. Going to hell was preferable to that, so I thought. The first time the ushers tried to sit me up front in the first row, I had to throw a few elbows until they got the message. It grieves my heart when I read stories like yours about former members who gave up on God because of their bad experiences. One poster here said, "God was fine, it's just His fan club ..." How sad indeed. May God bless you on your journey. |
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| 11-20-2016 07:22 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
| least |
Re: I've Been Thinking hi Quote: "Thanks for reading. I was crying when I started writing this but feel so much better to get this off my chest."/ Thanks for writing. What you wrote is helpful to me. I can relate to you, even though I did not grow up in the LC. As a child and teenager I needed God. I said in my mind and in my heart: if there is a you God, sure you can know what I'm saying in my mind and heart, show me you. And I landed in 'christianity'. Yet I did not join christianity, I believed in God and God showed me he is Jesus the saviour. I had some LC experiences. And now I'm unloading some of the influences from there. I understand what you wrote. It's really good that you posted. Thank you. from least. |
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| 11-19-2016 11:09 PM | ||||||||||||||||||
| Unregistered |
I've Been Thinking I've been reading some of the other threads... and although some of what I read is disturbing...it validates what I was taught at a very young age and my view of the outside world, my past and current struggles... but it doesn't take away the pain or the flashbacks or the pressure I felt. It's been pretty bothersome and makes me want to cry. I can talk to a therapist but they would probably never really understand me... what I was in... what life was like... I almost feel like I grew up in a cult. I don't mean to offend anyone by saying so... but I speak from my own experience... While others enjoyed the Lord... that's great. But what about people like me...who on the other hand knew I was better than all the sinful ones in the denominations...but yet was a 2nd class Christian inside the LC, amongst everyone including my own age group? What about people like me who took everything literally since I was a child to separate myself from the world and so did not relate to or talk with anyone in school or around me because they were Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran because they were on the wrong path... so the two choices I had were to convert the person to the LC way or not associate. Looking back on my life now as an atheist, I took things too seriously and literally and I believe that the church I went to really affected the way I related to the world around me and still does. I have relational problems...I have major trust issues... have been able to make some headway with making and having a few friends... whereas when I was younger and going to LC I had few or no friends... only ones inside church. I have major problems with associating with people around my age and especially with the other gender. I have problems in church where I cannot bear hearing the hymns, verses read or the sermon.... And major problems with older men (brothers...deacons...pastors.... and keep to myself about my non-beliefs...). I really wonder how others who no longer go to church... no longer Christian are doing... and how they got on with their life... Sometimes I think that if I ever had the opportunity to learn from them or talk to them...perhaps they would really understand and get me. From my point of view... it wouldn't make me feel any better to know that they suffered... or went into the world to do drugs or drink alcohol...or dove into "other worldly pleasures". The ones who went into the world... just simply to live a normal and healthy life... how did they turn out... without church... without God... are they doing fine? I don't know any... perhaps someone here might. All my peers and any else I knew married someone in the LC and are raising their kids in it. They don't seem as affected as me... not as "crazy" as me or as bothered if they even see anything wrong at all. All of them went to conferences and the FTTA but I was the only one in my peer group (and probably the whole church) who didn't other than a few conferences and retreats in NY, NJ, CT and MA , but from reading the lengthy discussions of the topics it doesn't seem like I missed out on anything much. I'm probably the only one out of the whole church turned atheist, but I plan to continue living the rest of my life as one... It is the path I found for myself...it is finally my decision and not something forced or chosen for me. It wasn't easy getting to this point but it was better than the alternative. I was so alienated from the world around me that I really didn't want to be alive anymore... it was all too much. When I do think about all this, it still is too much. When I don't, I can better manage life and going to heaven or earth doesn't concern me. I can live with whatever the outcome is or isn't, will or will not be. The main thing is that I just at this point want to live a decent human life that I can be proud of in a not-so-proudful way and for Christians I run into to understand that and respect that and not expect to convert me or hope that I one day identify again as a Christian. I just wish that a part of me could get past all the things of my lc past... I wish I didn't flinch everytime biblical or non-biblical or redefined biblical phrases were said. I just really wish I could move on with and in life... And not be haunted by my experiences. The calling on the name of the lord and constant shouting and condescension has had a great effect on me. Along with family dynamics growing up that also contributed, I do feel that the lc upbringing for me was deceivingly feel-good-positive for me, but might explain ptsd symptoms and flashbacks that I can't seem to overcome. All the shouting... jumping on and off chairs .. pumping of fists... over zealousness, arrogance....just seemed to me more like verbal abuse than others' enjoyment.... pray reading... shouting amen after each phrase...even when someone was praying... My face would freeze everytime and grow numb. I never knew when the next outburst would be... and it would be spontaneous because spontaneity was always stressed else we were blamed for being in our minds or not exercising our spirits and being lukewarm saints not on fire for the lord. I had enough yelling, shouting and blaming as it was at home.. I didn't need more at church as a child. I have major flashbacks and anxiety issues. I also remember such great peer pressure to conform... And remember the first time I was to call on the name of the lord when I was 12. We made a circle and each person was to call on the name of the lord 3 times or as many times needed to get into their spirit. Most only needed to call on the name 3 times. Then it was my turn. I didn't know or understand what I was doing. So I hoped that I only had to do it 3 times... And tried to do it as best as I could and hoping that it would be as genuine sounding and not forced. Unfortunately I didn't pass because it wasn't loud/intense enough... And was told to do it again.. 1 more time... Then again....then again.. it felt like I must have called 30 times in 5-10 minutes... It left an impression on me... It was one of the most humiliating experiences. I don't doubt it worked for others... But that was totally not me and out of character. The same with getting saved.. like I was just supposed to believe in 30 seconds, call on the name of the lord and pray just because my whole class was saved the week before and they didn't want me to feel left out. Something wrong with the picture if everyone around me was rejoicing... including the angels one told me... except me. I felt the same thing about the baptism... we did it as a class. But after I was..it was really weird..and confusing... Years later I would see one person baptized... and the same person baptized a month later.. why? Because there was something wrong with the first time..I don't know... Nothing seemed wrong with the first time. I've been two times myself. Once in lc and once later in non-LC because the first time didn't count according to the pastor. I've decided that two times is enough in my lifetime...there won't be a third time. I'm tired of pretending. Thanks for reading. I was crying when I started writing this but feel so much better to get this off my chest. I have a lot on my mind and a lot of inner struggles... especially since I just started working with a non-Christian therapist recently... found this website... and saw a psychiatrist who didn't quite seem to get why I'm so paranoid about the outside world and at one point thought I was becoming God.... I think my therapist understands me since I referred her here so she could read/see a little of the discussions... but don't think that the psychiatrist grasps it. Having to rehash everything to be helped is actually not helping me and causing me distress, but to be helped I have to rehash, remember, relive... I wish things happened oh so differently. One thing for sure is that the LC affected every aspect of my life including my thinking, outlook, relationships, who I was and who I am. I just wish I could salvage what's left of my life in this lifetime to live it fully... |
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