Originally Posted by awareness

Man evolved to believe in God. So evolutionists just haven't evolved enough yet. They're just not evolved.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think we just got plastered by a drive by ...

A "doozy of a scam" ...

I couldn't have said it any better.

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Talk about a brainwashing religion... that theory of evolution is a doozy of a scam. Well it has been bantered about elsewhere ad nauseum.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Churchs are nothing but brainwashing scams. Our DNA goes back bilions of years, cilvilations found over 500,000 years old. What did our ancestors believe in? Certainly not events that took place 2,000+ years ago.

Originally Posted by OBW

Igzy said it very well earlier when he noted that while our works will not save us, we are charged to do works and therefore should do them in obedience, not just when we feel as if we have enough dispensing to do it. (That is not exactly how he said it, but I think he would say it is consistent with his thinking.)

Originally Posted by OBW

Salvation is by grace. The thing that saves us is the sacrifice of Christ applied to us. We cannot apply it to ourselves. And we cannot die on our own behalf. But we must have faith. So if coming to faith is seen as a "work" then it is a work that is involved in getting us to a point of being saved. But that work does not save us. We still need the sacrifice of Christ. Since we cannot have anything to do with that, it is still grace that saves us.

Originally Posted by OBW

I would suggest that if there is anything right about Lee's vision of God's economy, then he was looking at one sentence in Gone With the Wind and declaring that it was the essence — no, more like the entire purpose — of the whole book. And because of that, even to the extent that it might have been true in a minor way, the overemphasis makes it virtually all error because of the amount of truth it denies.

Originally Posted by aron

This is a hazard of Calvinism (not to throw the discussion too far off): salvation is of grace, not works.

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't think there is necessarily anything essentially wrong with Lee's general vision of God's economy. The problems with it seem to derive mostly from the practical application of it which was narrow, sectarian and exclusive.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think one of Witness Lee's biggest errors was the way he was dismissive of good works. I haven't seen anything in the Bible that suggests that God is displeased when people do genuinely good things in a simple human way for others. Lee stated that works done outside the Spirit were worthless. Now, I understand that Christians should get their direction and empowerment from God. But to take that to the extreme and suggest that God therefore hates average people simply behaving as he commanded in a simple way is to me just a flat-out error.

What God rejects is when people try to justify themselves completely before him by their works, even to the point of telling God he isn't needed. It's self-righteousness he hates, not good works.

The Bible is full of commandments telling us to do good and reject evil. When someone in his conscience decides to do the right thing because it is the right thing, I think God always honors that. Certainly it's even better to be a person who is filled with the Spirit doing good works. But that doesn't mean that a person who is not a Christian who does good works is doing something God hates when he or she performs a genuine act of kindness. It just means those works cannot ultimately save him or her. But to think they mean nothing to God is just, to use a theological term, a flat-out error. It's just another example of LC arrogance and ignorance.

Originally Posted by Freedom

It's amazing how the whole teaching of "God's Economy" neglects the very basics of what Jesus taught. It's almost like LC members feel that they are above giving to the poor, that they are too good for that. It's an attitude I've run into before. They don't have time to love their neighbors unless they are a fellow LC members. It makes me sick sometimes.

Originally Posted by Igzy

It was an illegitimate focus. The focus should be God, people, relationships and the good works that make those grow. Focusing on God's economy is like focusing on eating (in the physical sense). Sure, eating is crucial. We need to take care of it. But people who make eating the focus of their lives are missing the whole point.

Originally Posted by HERn

You just quoted James and LSM says that although James is inspired by God it's not the "word" of God. Convenient?

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus said, "My food is to do the Father's will." Later He told them, "As the Father has sent Me, so do I send you." So our food is also to do God's will, not just talk about it.

Jesus did pray, yes. Also He read the scriptures (see e.g. "Have you not read the scriptures, Matt 19:4, 21:42, Mark 12:10, 26). So he "pray-read". But then He went out and did it. He lived it; He didn't just give messages on it. He did it.

"Blessed are the doers of the word, not just the hearers [and talkers] of it"

Originally Posted by aron

"Blessed are the doers of the word, not just the hearers [and talkers] of it"

Originally Posted by Igzy

Focusing on God's economy is like focusing on eating (in the physical sense). Sure, eating is crucial. We need to take care of it. But people who make eating the focus of their lives are missing the whole point.

Originally Posted by Freedom

... As I have found out, the Bible can't be read according to WL's teachings. I think ultimately, that's what makes it so hard for people like me in the LC to get out of that paradigm of "God's Economy". Everything is evaluated according to it.

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't think there is necessarily anything essentially wrong with Lee's general vision of God's economy. The problems with it seem to derive mostly from the practical application of it which was narrow, sectarian and exclusive.

Originally Posted by aron

This is a hazard of Calvinism (not to throw the discussion too far off): salvation is of grace, not works. Lee gave us Protestantism on steroids. Even the pious declarations of the OT saints were vain, he said.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I haven't seen anything in the Bible that suggests that God is displeased when people do genuinely good things in a simple human way for others...

What God rejects is when people try to justify themselves completely before him by their works, even to the point of telling God he isn't needed. It's self-righteousness he hates, not good works.

Originally Posted by Freedom

They don't have time to love their neighbors unless they are a fellow LC members. It makes me sick sometimes.

Originally Posted by HERn

I wonder what Jesus' response would have been if the rich young ruler had asked "Lord, what's Your Father's economy?" Do you think the Lord Jesus would have answered "God's economy is for me to became a man so that man could become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead", or something maybe like "Love the Father with all your heart, soul, and strength; and your neighbor as yourself". Sometimes I get the sense from the LSM crowd that Jesus' speaking is not really up to date with God's current move on the earth.

Originally Posted by HERn

I wonder what Jesus' response would have been if the rich young ruler had asked "Lord, what's Your Father's economy?" Do you think the Lord Jesus would have answered "God's economy is for me to became a man so that man could become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead", or something maybe like "Love the Father with all your heart, soul, and strength; and your neighbor as yourself". Sometimes I get the sense from the LSM crowd that Jesus' speaking is not really up to date with God's current move on the earth.

Originally Posted by Igzy

When all is said and done, and the dross is burned away, it's this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=632CHpeHYZE

Love your neighbor as yourself.

It is better to give than to receive.

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.