Originally Posted by aron

Then, when we observed the supposed Spiritual Man clearly violating his own stated precepts in diverting $$ for arguably carnal son #1, or installing admittedly carnal son #2 as The Office at LSM, we were taught that spirituality was to submit quietly and to ignore the obvious. If we mentioned what we saw, that was Rebellion, which was a heinous sin before God. That was being a Natural Man.

Thus did the Ministry of the Age impose a set of shifting rules to it's own benefit. The key was the initial point where you accepted their subjective experience as your objective, ageed-upon reality. Then, the game was on.

Back to the clippings: in one, RG states that all believers in one city should meet together as the church in that city. In the next sentence, he says that he doesn't mean that all the believers in Houston should meet in his church! Of course not! He says something categorical, then in the next breath denies the obvious corollary to his categorical "truth". Everything in service of the delusion.

If you want another example, "We don't care for right and wrong; we care for [the subjective experience of] 'life'". The Spiritual Man can sin, and his minions only care that he is happy. Don't let the Big Boss lose face. As long as he is happy, we are happy. In the LC this is considered "life"; this is their "spiritual" yardstick. This points to a strong delusion at work.

Originally Posted by aron

The Subjective Christ was a trojan horse, whereby Lee's subjectivity could overwhelm yours. Instead of believing that God raised Jesus from the dead, you believed that Lee was "spiritual" or "mystical" and you were "soulish" or "natural".



Then, when we observed the supposed Spiritual Man clearly violating his own stated precepts in diverting $$ for arguably carnal son #1, or installing admittedly carnal son #2 as The Office at LSM, we were taught that spirituality was to submit quietly and to ignore the obvious. If we mentioned what we saw, that was Rebellion, which was a heinous sin before God. That was being a Natural Man.

Thus did the Ministry of the Age impose a set of shifting rules to it's own benefit. The key was the initial point where you accepted their subjective experience as your objective, ageed-upon reality. Then, the game was on.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Natural? What decides something is natural? Like I said, it's either of the Spirit or it isn't. If it is it's okay; if isn't it is not. What does "natural constitution" have to do with anything?

Again, this is just how Lee placed doubt in everyone's minds about the gifts, abilities and insights God has given them. If Lee didn't like your approach, he could always just accuse you of being "natural."

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I was trying to express that in hearing this teaching, it still seemed to be that the natural man was doing a lot of the functions.

Originally Posted by Igzy

1 Cor 2:14 refers to what could be translated "man of the soul" and is sometime translated "natural man." But that is simply a description of a person who is not walking according to the Spirit. There is no ghost-like alternate man lurking about within us, who does weird things when we aren't paying attention, and needs to be "broken."

Originally Posted by Weighingin

In response to #25, it is more accurate that it's us, the natural man, that needs to be broken. (No longer I, but Christ) I was trying to express that in hearing this teaching, it still seemed to be that the natural man was doing a lot of the functions.

Originally Posted by Weighingin

It appeared to me that natural abilities were used to do things without being broken.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't doubt that Chinese culture was in the mix, but then the Exclusive Brethren must have drawn on the British Monarchy for "inspiration?"

Many an historian wrote that J.N. Darby became a far worse "pope" than the one he regularly condemned. But, of course, the Brits have regularly condemned the pope since Henry VIII.

Originally Posted by aron

The 5,000 year-old, very human culture that lies behind all this isn't worse than another - "There is none good, not one". All have fallen short of God's glory. But there's no reason on earth to take it. If someone convinces you otherwise, that it marks the path to heaven, then they've stolen your birthright for their own selfish ends. You've given up God's kingdom for theirs.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee used his many trainings to rebuke the evils of "man-pleasing" as if he was saved from its fleshly effects, yet behind the scenes, he solicited and even rewarded those who revered him. Publicly he taught that he was not an apostle, yet privately he promoted those who exalted him.

This explains why so many fleshly rivalries existed. Lee would play his lieutenants one against the other. He fostered a network of spies, or sleeper cells, which kept all the leaders in check, sowing suspicions to facilitate his controls.

It is no coincidence that both the Exclusive Brethren and the LC's endured serious divisions once their MOTA was gone. As they celebrated their lives at their funerals, lieutenants were already plotting their own take over. Don Rutledge's account informed us that this is where all of Benson Phillips' strengths were put to best use.

Originally Posted by aron

It's not coincidental that Ray Graver rose to the top of this organisational heap. He knew how to read between the lines. He knew that "reality" was whatever Witness Lee wanted at any given time, even if not stated openly. "He doesn't tell you what he wants", he said.

Thank God for people like Ray, and the elder in FT. Lauderdale, who could make the programme plain for us dummies, us mooing cows. Otherwise we might never have figured out what had hit us.

Originally Posted by Ohio

When he said, "we are so free," he was only referring to himself and his two adult boys.

Originally Posted by aron

The lead elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale was like RG in Houston, who said, "You have to know what Brother Lee is thinking. You have to be able to read between the lines." Those are the ones who fare well in the LC.

In another quote from the interview, when asked if he was God's oracle, Witness Lee replied, "I am a Bible teacher." Yes, and so was Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshal Applewhite and Elizabeth Claire Prophet. They all taught the Bible, too: stressing the parts they liked and ignoring the rest. Just bring up the "wrong verses" to an LCer and get ready for the silence and the blank stare. They weren't programmed to receive that verse.

The formula for success in the LC was simple: if you promoted Lee, you got promoted. Your elder in FT. Lauderdale & RG both understood this.

Originally Posted by awareness

Back in 78 it was... called The Flow. If you were to be a burning brother you were to be totally given to The Flow.

Back then I naively thought The Flow was The Spirit. Until the lead elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale came back from Anaheim and told us what The Flow actually really was.

Using Revelation 22 he said something to the effect of : The flow comes out of the throne of God (carrying His authority) as the river of life, to the apostle on the earth, Witness Lee. Then, using Psalms 133, "the ointment upon the head" - Witness Lee - "runs down to the beard" - the elders in each locality, and then to "the skirts of his garments" - us little to-be-Lee-bots...

Originally Posted by Don Rutledge

In the church life at that time, Witness Lee was very much in the background among the churches. While we sought the Lord for our daily walk, family life, and function in the Body of Christ, Ray would constantly reference Witness Lee for all matters – personal, local, and extra-local. Ray often told others that they needed to be able to “read between the lines” of what Brother Lee was saying and “hear what he really means” and that “he does not tell you directly what he wants”. Ray was always bringing Witness Lee to the foreground in the church, a trend that only increased with time. Because of his position of leadership, Ray, with his superstitious notions, eventually became a great problem to many. One of Ray’s ambitions was to serve Witness Lee directly, and he believed that one day Witness Lee would relocate to Texas, probably to Houston.

Originally Posted by Nell

This is a partial copy of now, Dr. Morris A. Fred's dissertation and his study of the Local Church.

Ritual as Ideology in an Indigenous Chinese Christian Church

Examination of the 1966 split in the Local Church illustrates the relationship between changes in the church's organization and ritual.

... See attached .pdf.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Because Max was deputized the "Universal Coordinator of the One New Man!"

Originally Posted by Weighingin

Those were some days! I recall getting the impression that the flow came down from the throne to WL, from him it flowed to Max, then to leading bros, finally to us lowly ones.

Originally Posted by awareness

Back in 78 it wasn't called that. It was called The Flow. If you were to be a burning brother you were to be totally given to The Flow.

Back then I naively thought The Flow was The Spirit. Until the lead elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale came back from Anaheim and told us what The Flow actually really was.

Using Revelation 22 he said something to the effect of : The flow comes out of the throne of God (carrying His authority) as the river of life, to the apostle on the earth, Witness Lee. Then, using Psalms 133, "the ointment upon the head" - Witness Lee - "runs down to the beard" - the elders in each locality, and then to "the skirts of his garments" - us little to-be-Lee-bots.

At least I finally learned what was meant by The Flow. No more 'in the sky' thinking about The Flow. The Flow wasn't a nebulous Spirit thing moving among us, and in our meetings. The Flow was a man ; the apostle on the earth ; the oracle of God on the earth ; and the authority of God on the earth.

And to be a burning brother was to be totally given to That Flow, and under That Authority ; under the authority of Witness Lee, by being under the authority of the elders. That was the real Flow -- none of that silly Spirit flow.

Now, thanks to brother aron, we know what it actually was. It was "the LC mental meat-grinder."

Originally Posted by awareness

Now, thanks to brother aron, we know what it actually was. It was "the LC mental meat-grinder."

Originally Posted by aron

the LC mental meat-grinder

Originally Posted by aron

Witness Lee admittedly was so free, as he stated. Everyone else, not.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I'll start. This was recently posted by Friedel (on the thread "Sacrifice and Sail On - Book by Philip Lin"):

"Ex-official reveals fear, loathing in ‘Local Church’" (article ran in The Spokesman Review, Spokane, WA, 17 December 1978, originally from the Los Angeles Times, by John Dart)

Originally Posted by rayliotta

There may not be many articles out there, but there are some. Please contribute!