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03-31-2009 09:20 AM
Re: My Story

Originally Posted by IDon'tKnow View Post
....I feared I would be under God's judgement and be taken away from God's unique move. I relinquished these rationalizations because (amongst other things) at the End God was making it clear to me that at the end I wouldn't be able to blame it on Lee and if I should fear punishment it should be for not following His voice not for not following what somebody tells me is His voice.
Anyway I was curious to know how much this matched the experience of others. Did others here read the life studies, attended the conferences, watched the video messages, and get the sense that something is off here. What I mean is how much can be put down to a different private and public persona and how much is just simply a willingness as a group to turn a blind eye to the obvious inconsistencies in order to be in God's unique move?
Great points and greaat questions IDon'tKnow!
I liked reading the life study messages alone and with the saints. I liked the home meetings where we'd read the messages and share what we would be getting out of them.

Lee may have introduced many good things regarding the Word of God...but when I came to the LC in '75, the emphasis was on the WORD of GOD. God was getting the credit...even though we called on the Lord's Name, even though we pray read, and read the messages given by Lee.

Lee was not the focus. If he was, he never was to me. Our locality had elders presenting the Word of God to us..even though the messages given were the messages coming from Anaheim. I also spent a lot of time reading the Word alone and with my sisters in Christ.

By 1978, the videos were introduced and thus we began to watch Lee on 'TV' more often. My spirit churned. I did not like watching the videos of him at all. At the same time, all the credit was being shifted to 'Brother Lee'. UGH.

The life study messages were the only messages I got into given by Lee. I did not get into his books. But I did like reading Watchman Nee's books and have a few of Nee's books in my library.

I'm very glad you listened to the Voice of the Lord to follow HIM rather than man. For when we stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ, none of us will be able to blame anyone for our shortcomings..for not obeying the Voice of God in our spirit.

May the Lord continue to strengthen you in your spirit and fill you with the Wisdom of God. May He grant you revelation and understanding, patience and forgiveness towards those who who wronged you/who wronged us, in Christ Jesus.
03-30-2009 06:54 PM
Re: My Story

On the other forum I noticed a thread named Public Lee vs Private Lee (or something like that) anyway one of the things which I noticed in the thread was the idea that the private Lee was not like the like the Godly person he portrayed in public meetings. Anyway the immediate thought which came to my mind was "but I got a negative impression of him from watching public meetings." Things such as going into 20 minute diatribes about how none of you knew anything about the all-inclusive Christ until "I" came along, followed by talks on how we shoulded seek our own glory (and how he'd never done this (see previous statement)), then their was the time when he was talking about the difference between a good natural man and a god-man and of course he decided to use a young sister in the meeting whom he named and even had the camera do a close up on, as an example of a copper good natural man.

On the otherside of the coin we also see poster on the other forum who are exposed to events such as Daystar and still religously defend Witness.

Also thier is the fact that while in the ministry their is definitely good healthy things their also seems to be alot of spiritual sounding stuff yet when you look at it deeper it means nothing (there was an example of this on the other forum pertaining to grace) and possibly without much scriptural support (difference between divine life and divine nature, If there was scriptural support for his teachings about this it was probably thin and did little to mask the fact that it seemed to only be vain knowledge anyway), to the downright poisonous (spiritual authority).

Anyway what I came away from this with is the realization that I saw the negative as well as the positive in Witness Lee as well as in his ministry while I was there. I saw that in someways the ministry was off and the Witness Lee was also off. Yet at the same time I willfully made rationalizations so that this person could be the minister of the age (That one never sat well with me). I made these rationalizations because as long as I kept them I could remained joined to God's unique move. I kept these rationalizations because if I were to let them go I feared I would be under God's judgement and be taken away from God's unique move. I relinquished these rationalizations because (amongst other things) at the End God was making it clear to me that at the end I wouldn't be able to blame it on Lee and if I should fear punishment it should be for not following His voice not for not following what somebody tells me is His voice.

Anyway I was curious to know how much this matched the experience of others. Did others here read the life studies, attended the conferences, watched the video messages, and get the sense that something is off here. What I mean is how much can be put down to a different private and public persona and how much is just simply a willingness as a group to turn a blind eye to the obvious inconsistencies in order to be in God's unique move?
03-01-2009 07:53 AM
Re: My Story

Thanks for your honest testimony “ I Don’t Know”. What you have described here shows what has sadly happened to a church life that has fallen under man’s tight control and organization. No freedom for the Spirit of God to actually move anymore. Everything very nicely organized. Read this…….share a prophesy from this written material….Full Time Trainings…Video Trainings…only read written material put out by LSM.

I much prefer a bible without notes. Do the leading ones in “The Recovery” have any realization that the Spirit of God can actually speak to a believer through the written word of God only.

A full timer once said in a meeting I attended a while back….”I don’t know God and I don’t know anybody that does.” This was not a young newly saved person but someone in their 40’s who had been in the church for quite a number of years and had been a serving one for a good while. I appreciated this one’s honesty and am not at all being critical. But I think that it clearly shows that a lot of people in the LC ‘s are having their heads crammed full of a lot of biblical knowledge rather than being encouraged to simply come to the Lord to be fed by Him in His word.

And the sad thing is………if they did come to the Lord in the word and were touched by God …..if it didn’t somehow line up with whatever was in the HWMR for that particular meeting…..they’d have to drop it anyways and find something in the written material to share on.

That’s probably why there was no life or joy in those meetings. The Spirit is Life…..NOT the ministry.
02-28-2009 08:58 PM
Re: My Story


You can thank the Lord for one thing for sure - that you were only in the FTT for one year.

My daughter was there the full time and here is only a sampling of what she got out of it -

Her notes -

"Have mercy on me that I would learn to deny myself and even hate myself.
Show me that everything I go through and experience is for the Body. Humble me, and save me from being an "individual" Christian. Remind me I am a snake. Judge me evey single day. Have mercy on me that I would see you in everything. Kill all the "roaches" in me. Save me that I would never exalt myself".

How is that for "healthy teaching" we used to hear all about?

We are to "hate ourselves"? " Remind me I am a snake"?

My daughter wrote this several years ago along with pages of self hate and horrible things she received via the "move of God on the earth". They were her notes from that awful place - and caused her great damage and generally changed her whole being for the worse.

So that is MY STORY - and I pray God in His mercy will change my daughter's story and recover her from the "Recovery".

02-26-2009 01:37 PM
Former LC member
Re: My Story

Hello IDon'tKnow, and welcome. We are so glad to have you here sharing with us. Although we have the Lord, we also have a deep need for human fellowship. It is not good to be alone!
I would like share a verse from a song by Buddy Davis.

'No matter what we know,
there's more that we'll never know,
next to what God knows,
we know next to nothing at all'

Sort of fits in with your moniker
Remember, God resists the proud. So, the more humbly we realise that we know nothing, the closer He draws to us!
02-26-2009 09:03 AM
Re: My Story

Dear IDon'tKnow,

Sounds to me like you do know. Welcome to our little group. Kind of homely on the outside, but there are some beautiful things inside. Sort of like that thing in the OT you read about.

02-26-2009 06:03 AM
Re: My Story


Thank You for sharing your heartwrenching story with us. Be assured God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit loves YOU more than you'll ever realize.

Also remember...what Satan meant for evil, God turns to GOOD. This paraphrased scripture comes from Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Joseph, upon being reunited with his brothers who left him for dead..who sold him to the Ismaeleets..ended up in Egypt (symbol of the world)...where God used Joseph mightily!
IDon'tKnow...everything happens for a reason. Let the Holy Spirit explain your experience in the LSM/LC, in the FTT to you.

Keep reading the Bible...And use many versions..KJ, NASB, Amplified, New Living Translation...those are my favorites. Go back and read Genesis with fresh anointing. When you get to Genesis 37......Joseph's journey...pay close attention to it.

I love JOSEPH. In fact, when I get to the Holy City New Jerusalem, after beholding Jesus face to face, my King, My Lord, my Bridegroom, and after greeting my earthly parents, the first person I want to talk to is JOSEPH. When I read his biography in Genesis, I often cry. He is truly a picture of the Lord Jesus while living out His days in Egypt. ( I think everyone loves Joseph!)

There are many good books written by Believers & followers of the Lord dealing with control & manipulation. You should also study the account of Jezebel found in 1 Kings..in particular chapter 21. Read and Study her pattern carefully. There are many studies on the spirit of Jezebel. She is also mentioned in the book of Revelation, chapter 2.

You will be greatly helped. But most of all, draw near and dear to the Lord. Get to KNOW HIM. Get to know the Father God, our Creator, our Heavenly Father who created man in His Image & likeness. Get to know the Son, His Son, Jesus again...He is our Redeemer, our LORD, our KING. He is the KING of kings... The more you get to know the King of kings, the more you will realize your position as a king.....chosen to rule and reign with Him.
Get to know the HOLY SPIRIT...the third Person of the Godhead, equal to God the Father, and God the Son. He is our Comfortor, our Guide. He is the VOICE of GOD..who speaks to us in our spirit..and points us to JESUS & to the Word of GOD. When we cry out to the LORD JESUS, it is the Holy Spirit in our spirit crying out. When we are searching the Word of God, He is leading us to the passages. He is the One who reveals the Word of God to us..He is the Spirit of God, the Oil of Anointing..He leads us into the Presence of God..gives us Power & Strength in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit is a real PERSON. He has emotions. Ephesians 4:30 tells us not to Grieve the Holy Spirit.

And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Grieving is a human emotion. When we are saddened by the loss of a loved one, or a pet, or hurt by a friend, we grieve. The Holy Spirit grieves because so many of God's people ignore Him. I always knew He was 'real'. I always believed in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I knew He was 'the Life Giving Spirit living in us'. But I did not come to know the Holy Spirit..to LOVE HIM..until a few years ago...when I began to hear teachings on the Holy Spirit. Remember. He is EQUAL to GOD the FATHER, and God the SON JESUS Christ.

Talk to Him...just as you talk to the Lord Jesus, as you speak to Father God.

Fall in Love with Yeshua HaMashiach..(Hebrew for Jesus the Messiah) through your spirit...He's our Bridegroom.

I hope you have Christian friends who are strong in the Lord. If you don't, ask the Father to send you a friend or two...and as you build up your friendship in Christ Jesus with them, you will be a blessing to them, I am sure.

Jesus is our Great Physician. He truly heals our mind, (He renews our minds)He heals our emotions & stabliizes them, He even heals our mortal bodies. (sometimes it takes a long time...and eventually we're going to get new bodies anyway.) He restores us...and fills us with the Joy of the Lord.

Be encouraged..Look UP..Pack UP...'cause soon, we're going UP!

Come Lord Jesus. Come. The Spirit and the Bride say "Come."
02-25-2009 09:36 PM
My Story

I guess I should give testimony.

I got saved on a campus. I went to a FTT for a year. I remember going to corporate morning revival and not being able to sense any real joy. I spoke about this with 3 other FTTers, none of them attempted to disagree. I think they mainly put it down to the cross. One guy spoke about how even though he wasn't really experiencing anything he had faith that he was experiencing it so that was good enough for him. This scared me. I could probably liken it to a terrorist bomber blowing himself up and having faith he was in heaven as the koran or whoever said while suffering in Hades. I remember a brother commenting about how fresh brother Lee seemed to be on one of the old videos, my immediate thought was "What are you talking about?"

Near the end I just couldn't stand to read the morning revival. At one point I realized as to the whole becoming god in life and nature doctrine. I never much wanted to become god in life and nature, I mainly just wanted God to love me and the teaching seemed to have reduced God to an impersonal thing for whom I was simply a cog in his plan. I'm not certain if that is a fair analysis of his teaching but it was my experience. I remember that while I have had many enjoyable times in the church, none of them were related to the ministry.

As regards the ministry maybe there was life there but it seems that the self aggrandizing, the putting down of others, and the huge leaps in logic were far more noticeable. I remember that when I first try to read through the bible with footnotes rather than aiding me they were what caused me to stop. I found that I got to a point where there was maybe one verse on the page and whole heap of footnotes and in the end the actual text seemed more understandable. More I remember at one point having a morning revival where I would read through the word with prayer and enjoying it thoroughly and then reading a footnote, and it killed it.

Preparing prophecy I remember the hardest thing was finding something in the HWMR which actually lined up with my experience and actually seemed to come from the Word. So in the end I prayed with tears is this your recovery, I got the response what more could he possibly show me when it was so obvious it wasn't. Nothing in my experience refuted this, nothing which I could see in others refuted this, nothing in the word seemed to refute this, so, I left.

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