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05-08-2020 01:51 PM
aron
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by LCgenX View Post
Wow! 1977?! Wasn't that lyke when the original Spanish Corona Virus broked out toward the end of the First World War??? How old u dudes, anyway? Y'all be lyke over 50!!!

Don't be bitter. Be better.

LC & Lovin It...
It can be hard on an anonymous message board to know if something is genuine or sarcastic. The above post may be a spoof by someone trying to make LCers look bad. But if there are those the LC thinking this way (and they're surely being programmed to) I have a reply: we think about what happened in 1977 for the same reason we think about what happened 2,000 years ago in Galilee and Judea. "The Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead [yes, 2000 years ago] will [now] give life to your mortal bodies." ~Rom 8:11 And the spirit of deception and manipulation, that spirit at work 40-odd years ago, is still at them today to "enjoy" whilst being spiritually pantsed. Sorry to be blunt but that's the way it is. What happened then matters now, because what happened then is still happening now. It's the same spirit. Maybe with a narrower necktie, but the same spirit. Don't be fooled into thinking that it's different because it's a different decade. The prince of the age surely wants to give that impression, but nothing has changed. It's still manipulation, deception, control, fear.
04-29-2020 03:19 PM
Freedom
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
If I recall that was 2007. Ironically the year prior August 2006, Ransford Ackah died as a result of an auto accident. I was not meeting with the local churches at that time so I don't know if his passing had been spun at all "as rebelling".

The narrative changes depending on the person's standing with the LC. I don't recall ever hearing anything negative spoken about Francis Ball's death, but regarding people who have left, I definitely heard it implied that God might 'judge' them.
04-27-2020 06:53 PM
Terry
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Totally - it is a classic "cult" tactic.

One of the faithful co-workers, Francis Ball, was struck by a car and died years ago. I guess he rebelled against Witness Lee too?!
If I recall that was 2007. Ironically the year prior August 2006, Ransford Ackah died as a result of an auto accident. I was not meeting with the local churches at that time so I don't know if his passing had been spun at all "as rebelling".
04-26-2020 06:08 PM
Ohio
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Totally - it is a classic "cult" tactic.

One of the faithful co-workers, Francis Ball, was struck by a car and died years ago. I guess he rebelled against Witness Lee too?!
I heard this stuff for years. So predictable:
  • Bad things happen to ex-members -- See how the Lord is judging them!
  • Bad things happen to current members -- see how the Enemy attacks us!
I would point you to three of the most distinguished patterns of suffering the Bible has ever presented: Job, Jesus, and Paul. There are long chapters dedicated to their trials, sufferings, misfortunes, etc. Read their stories again. Each of them was soundly condemned by all the so-called "godly and spiritual" men who knew them. Their reputations were destroyed by their contemporaries.
04-26-2020 04:06 PM
NewManLiving
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

But this is all true! Can’t you see??? Witness Lee rebelled against himself and died of Cancer. His two sons, if I remember correctly, also rebelled against their father and are no longer with us. Mrs Kangas #1 must have secretly rebelled against MOTA as well since she succumbed to Cancer. Take heed and repent!!!
04-26-2020 03:11 PM
Trapped
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggonit View Post
Notice how Albert Lim equates sinning against God with having "rebelled against Brother Lee". Nothing says WE ARE A CULT! like one of the lead minions reminding everyone that if you even think about looking at our dear leader cross-eyed God is going to strike you dead! And if you're really negative to the grand poobah God will strike down your spouse too!

Hey big Al I got a story for you. I know of a brother who was super rebellious against the local church cult. Man he was one of the worst of the worst. Now his wife was one of the most dedicated sisters you'll ever find. She went to every meeting. She preached the local church gospel to everyone who would listen. She brought lots of people into the local church cult. This sister was respected as much as any sister in her local church. And do you know what happened big Al? Do you think a piano fell on the rebellious brother? Did he get run over by a bus? Did he get some terrible disease and die a miserable death? No. It was the sister who got cancer and died.
Totally - it is a classic "cult" tactic.

One of the faithful co-workers, Francis Ball, was struck by a car and died years ago. I guess he rebelled against Witness Lee too?!
04-26-2020 03:09 PM
Trapped
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

On page 12 Ron Kangas says "Be humbled under the mighty hand of God-this is our part. Do not worry about others. Do not compare yourself with others. Do not talk to God about others. Do not dream about your future. Right now, right here, the word is "be humbled". In due time, God will exalt you."

Sorry, but "do not talk to God about others?" What are the Psalms then? What are probably 75% of all prayers uttered to God throughout all time? Not only can we not have friends in the church, or outside of the church, not only do we have to "cover" everything to the detriment of the church, now we can't even talk to God about certain things?! I give up.
04-26-2020 02:24 PM
Doggonit
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Here's the quote referenced by Trapped:
"At that time, I had one relative who was older than my dad, and he was the one who brought my dad to the Lord. He was also the one who brought my dad into the recovery. He was also the one who brought Brother Lee into this country in the first place. But one day, he was affected and he rebelled against Brother Lee and the recovery. Shortly after that rebellion, something happened to this relative of ours and to his family. His wife got sick and died of cancer. Her cancer was not hidden in her body but it was a growth out of her throat. On the same day that we brought her to the cemetery for burial, her husband, the rebellious one, felt something wrong with his abdomen. When we heard about this, we brought him to the hospital. He never left that hospital. Within thirty days, he also went to be with the Lord. When he was still in the hospital, he asked my mother for some fellowship. He told my mother, “Please pray for me, please pray for me. I realize that I have sinned against God. I should never have rebelled against Brother Lee. So please pray.” And he said, “If the Lord would be willing to heal me, I will bring my whole family back into the Lord’s recovery.” I was hopeful that with such a prayer, maybe the Lord would heal him, but the Lord did not."

Notice how Albert Lim equates sinning against God with having "rebelled against Brother Lee". Nothing says WE ARE A CULT! like one of the lead minions reminding everyone that if you even think about looking at our dear leader cross-eyed God is going to strike you dead! And if you're really negative to the grand poobah God will strike down your spouse too!

Hey big Al I got a story for you. I know of a brother who was super rebellious against the local church cult. Man he was one of the worst of the worst. Now his wife was one of the most dedicated sisters you'll ever find. She went to every meeting. She preached the local church gospel to everyone who would listen. She brought lots of people into the local church cult. This sister was respected as much as any sister in her local church. And do you know what happened big Al? Do you think a piano fell on the rebellious brother? Did he get run over by a bus? Did he get some terrible disease and die a miserable death? No. It was the sister who got cancer and died.
04-26-2020 01:01 PM
Trapped
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExLCMillennial View Post
This e-book from the Gospel Bookroom of the Philippines, Inc. is published as a compilation of the eight messages given by brothers Ron Kangas, Albert Lim, and Mark Raabe during the Perfecting Training for Elders and Responsible Ones held January 17-19, 2020, in Malabon City, Philippines. The training was attended by about one thousand five hundred elders and responsible ones across the Philippines.
Wow, on page 27 of that book Albert Lim shares a story of someone who "rebelled against brother Lee" who's wife very quickly after got cancer and died, and who then himself died 30 days later.

It's been a while since I've heard such an overt threat of death like that.

It's interesting, with their logic, all atheists (ultimate rebelling against God) should have died of heart attacks a long time ago.
04-26-2020 09:28 AM
Terry
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Great axiom! If only Witness Lee and his followers held to this one....we would not be in this forum, and the Local Church would probably be a much healthier place for young people and new Christians. May God have mercy.
-
That's been my thought. Express grace not only in words, but in action.
Be leaders of what it is show grace. No! Shunning is not showing grace. Be engaged to listen to those who disagree.
04-25-2020 04:15 PM
ExLCMillennial
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

This e-book from the Gospel Bookroom of the Philippines, Inc. is published as a compilation of the eight messages given by brothers Ron Kangas, Albert Lim, and Mark Raabe during the Perfecting Training for Elders and Responsible Ones held January 17-19, 2020, in Malabon City, Philippines. The training was attended by about one thousand five hundred elders and responsible ones across the Philippines.

04-19-2020 03:20 PM
Trapped
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by LCgenX View Post
Wow! 1977?! Wasn't that lyke when the original Spanish Corona Virus broked out toward the end of the First World War??? How old u dudes, anyway? Y'all be lyke over 50!!!

Don't be bitter. Be better.

LC & Lovin It...

Tell us your story, LCgenX!!
04-19-2020 11:43 AM
UntoHim
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by LCgenX View Post
Don't be bitter. Be better.
Great axiom! If only Witness Lee and his followers held to this one....we would not be in this forum, and the Local Church would probably be a much healthier place for young people and new Christians. May God have mercy.
-
04-19-2020 11:39 AM
Terry
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by doggonit View Post
The spite and rancor Kangas speaks with is astounding. Dude, John Ingalls left your little personality cult over 30 years ago and is now passed away and with the Lord. Give it a rest. Really Ron, you should consider seeing a psych doc or something to take care of your deep seated anger issues. You seem to forget, John Ingalls was your deputy authority (or deputy deputy authority under brother Lee) and YOU rebelled against him! Repent! Don't you know that even if the deputy authority is wrong he is right!
In life and in death grace could not be given by Ron or by many co-workers towards John Ingalls. I wonder how many actively meeting in the local churches continue believing this narrative?
In Christianity, this is not so. There is grace.
04-19-2020 11:30 AM
Terry
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
As the infamous dictum instructs "never let a good crisis go to waste," so WL used this "opportunity" to exact more power and control over all of the LC's, which prior to this were somewhat "local."
It was then as it is currently. Always about attempting to gain control and power.
04-19-2020 07:04 AM
Ohio
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by LCgenX View Post
Wow! 1977?! Wasn't that lyke when the original Spanish Corona Virus broked out toward the end of the First World War??? How old u dudes, anyway? Y'all be lyke over 50!!!

Don't be bitter. Be better.

LC & Lovin It...
I'm happy for you. But that would be 1917 for the Spanish Flu.

Question for you LCgenX. Why is it that WL and the Blendeds can regularly condemn the Catholic church for what they did during the Dark Ages, but 1977 is off limits in the LC?
04-19-2020 06:06 AM
LCgenX
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Wow! 1977?! Wasn't that lyke when the original Spanish Corona Virus broked out toward the end of the First World War??? How old u dudes, anyway? Y'all be lyke over 50!!!

Don't be bitter. Be better.

LC & Lovin It...
04-14-2020 02:10 PM
Nell
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

I’m pretty sure I have never quoted verses from Philemon before. This letter from Paul is so wonderful and sweet and loving that I decided to quote the whole book.

The verse, bolded below, has such a contrast with the subject of this topic and the humanity of Paul toward Onesimus, a former slave. Basically, Paul could use his rightful authority to give orders, but he chose instead to appeal out of love. RK chooses to use his “authority” to control others rather than express love for the brothers.

I’m so glad I found this book again.

Philemon New International Version (NIV)
1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our dear friend and fellow worker— 2 also to Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier—and to the church that meets in your home: 3 Grace and peace to you[a] from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
4 I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers, 5 because I hear about your love for all his holy people and your faith in the Lord Jesus. 6 I pray that your partnership with us in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every good thing we share for the sake of Christ. 7 Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the Lord’s people.

Paul’s Plea for Onesimus
8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus— 10 that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus,[b] who became my son while I was in chains. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.

12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me. 19 I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back—not to mention that you owe me your very self. 20 I do wish, brother, that I may have some benefit from you in the Lord; refresh my heart in Christ. 21 Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask.

22 And one thing more: Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers.

23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, sends you greetings. 24 And so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas and Luke, my fellow workers.

25 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
04-14-2020 06:02 AM
Ohio
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

If one would like real life events which so explicitly characterize what Jesus instructed His disciples NOT to do when He warned them ...
Quote:
You know that those regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. But it shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be the slave of all -- Mark 10.43
... then I encourage you to study these events surrounding these sisters in SoCal and Texas.

The condition of the LC's has steadily deteriorated since then.
04-14-2020 04:40 AM
Nell
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

In order to complete the record on the events of Memorial Weekend 1977, this link includes an attached .pdf on this forum, with details of the “three holy sisters” non-incident. Benson Phillips spoke openly in 2005 about Jane Anderson and Sandee Rapoport and reaffirmed that “what he did was right.” His “facts” are confused and mostly wrong.

Matt and his mother continued researching the events and this is the record of what they found. Because of Benson’s false statement in 2005 many still believe what Benson said was true. It was not.

Most glaring is that, by testimony of Sandee and others who were in that meeting in 1977, Witness Lee never called out “three holy sisters” as Benson said. When these facts came to light, Benson was called out in writing by Matt Anderson about his false statements. And is his way Benson refused to respond to Matt’s letter, and thereby refusing to retract or apologize to Sandee or the churches who heard his false statements. To this day most believe Benson was telling the truth.

In fact, Lee sanctioned the activities of these 3 sisters up until the time that he publicly rebuked them for doing the very thing he had approved. He did not use the term “three holy sisters” (Phillip Lee used this term and Benson likely picked it up from Phillip) and he did not have them stand in that meeting for the purpose of public shaming. Benson spoke as though he was in that meeting and witnessed the whole thing. He was not. He was in Houston “dealing with” Jane Anderson.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...23&postcount=1

Nell
04-13-2020 07:54 PM
Ohio
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
The "rebelling young people" incident in Berkeley took place on memorial day weekend 1977(8?). There was another incident that took place that same weekend in Chicago. (I think Max was at that one). Young people from all over California were bused or drove to Berkeley. I believe that Dick Taylor and some other Orange County elders (a young Minoru Chen among them) were sent up as babysitters. It was an unmitigated disaster. It was a time in the Local Church that we were being encouraged to stop being "religious". So there was all sorts of "unreligious", sacreligous shenanigans that took place.

The main thing to keep in mind when people tell you about these kind of shenanigans is that Witness Lee knew all about it. In fact he was the one who encouraged it in the first place. Anyone who tells you otherwise either wasn't there, or is trying to protect "dear brother Lee's" reputation. Lee wasn't trying to gain power or control...he already had full power and full control of all the Local Churches in California already. Nothing...absolutely nothing happened in the Local Churches without his full knowledge. He only pretended not to know when the whole thing blew up in his face. And then he did what Witness Lee ALWAYS DID...he blamed someone else for his false teachings and blunders.
-
The year was definitely 1977, since that was the year I migrated from Cleveland to Columbus to start that church.

Max R was definitely in Chicago for the Memorial Day weekend conference at their old masonic lodge. What a time that was!? The anti-religion fever exploded. Just crazy! Elders were resigning. One Chicago elder pulled off his belt demanding that all the young people leave their LC and go to the campuses in order to carry out "Brother Lee's burden." It was just ludicrous to accuse Max of rebelling against Lee. He was just a scapegoat.

There was supposed to be a second conference the following weekend in Chicago. We all went, but Max never showed up. Years later I learned that Lee used the conference in Anaheim while Max was gone to shame Max's wife Sandie, a common Chinese tactic to subdue your "rival."

Lee did not have full control over the Midwest LC's at the time, in fact, the full take over by LSM was not accomplished until the quarantines and lawsuits 10-15 years ago.

I believe Nell's post from the Bereans thread is very accurate. The whole thing was orchestrated out of Anaheim by Lee, sending prepared brothers to various locations including Chicago and Berkeley. Nothing originally happened by accident. Concerning Jane Anderson -- I assume that BP was copycatting Lee in order to flex his muscles in Texas, making an example out of the three sisters. When Lee's failed plans got out of control, he readily threw Max and others under the bus to maintain his own pristine image. Recovery Rule #1: everyone is expendable except for the Lee family.
04-13-2020 05:41 PM
Nell
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Memorial Weekend, 1977 was a big one in Local Church/Witness Lee History. From the Bereans Forum, Matt Anderson posted this:

____________________________________________
Matt Anderson 01-11-08 00:16
I am opening a new thread for this topic...

Quote:
Quote from: Mr Smith (Post 337477)
With this reference to RG and BP, could this be what happened to Jane Carole Anderson? Having read The Thread of Gold, BP was not an elder in Houston at the time he took swift action against Jane. Was RG? Based on Hope's post what COULD have happened is BP heard a rumor based off a report and made a mountain out of a molehill. This is a hidden danger lurking in the LC's. Responsible brothers such as BP hear something and jump to conclusions thus overreacting without investigating the facts at hand. If the facts substantiate the report, then the actions are justified. If not, let's not be too prideful to say "I was wrong".

mr Smith
______________________________________


Matt's reply:
Mr. Smith,

I've been doing some reconsideration and ongoing "research" into the events of the weekend of Memorial Day Weekend 1977. This was the timing of Benson Phillips dealing with my mom.

I am discovering the following items that I plan to pin down and elaborate upon. I have instinctively felt that there was a plan being implemented on that weekend. I have some corroboration of this fact, but it is still speculative. I am trying to put together a picture of several things:

A. What was the movement of key leaders/elders on this weekend between localities.
B. What was the stated impetus behind why various leaders travelled to these various localities
C. Why have most LCer's only heard about Berkeley, CA when it appears that there was at least one other locality (Chicago, L) that had a major upheaval that was somewhat on par with Berkeley.
D. What was the effect of the events of the weekend as capitalized upon by Witness Lee. In other words, what did Witness Lee do in response to the events of the weekend.
E. Is it possible to look backwards and perceive that there was intent behind the events of the weekend and that it was not just spontaneous.

Here is what I am reconsidering:

1. Anaheim, CA = Witness Lee calls out the "Holy Sisters" in Anaheim
- John Ingalls was out of town in Ft. Lauderdale, FL
- Max Rapaport was out of town in Chicago, IL
- I am trying to determine who else were "elders/leaders" in Anaheim at this time
Primary Target of Action: Max Rapaport

2. Berkeley, CA = Big uprising by the young people that may have been instigated by others
- Some from San Diego were sent to Berkeley
- The eldership was being challenged
Primary Target of Action: Eldership in Berkeley, CA

3. Chicago, IL = Big uprising by the young people that was instigated partially by Max Rapaport
- Max Rapaport travelled to Chicago, IL and may have instigated the uprising
- I believe Don Rutledge also travelled to Chicago, IL to support Max not realizing what was going to occur.
- The eldership in the entire Midwest was being challenged

Important Note: No one ever heard about this uprising in other areas of the LC. Those in the Midwest knew about it, but it wasn't broadcast like the Berkeley affair. I don't think the two events were terribly different.

Possible Primary Target of Action: Titus Chu and Midwest Eldership

4. Houston, TX = Benson Phillips denounces Jane Anderson
- Benson Phillips denounces my mom

Note: In my opinion, this event is the least significant among all of the events. My mom was a "nobody". She had no connections to the "Holy Sisters" in Anaheim, CA. She had few connections outside of Texas.

5. Atlanta, GA = This is new and not completely confirmed yet.
- Bill Mallon was out of town in Ft. Lauderdale, FL
- John Little travelled to Atlanta, GA where I have recently heard that something similar (but on a much smaller scale) happened as what was going on in Berkeley and Chicago

Primary Target of Action: Not Confirmed



Coincidence? All these "events" happened on the same weekend...Memorial Weekend, 1977?

Nell
04-13-2020 03:34 PM
UntoHim
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

The "rebelling young people" incident in Berkeley took place on memorial day weekend 1977(8?). There was another incident that took place that same weekend in Chicago. (I think Max was at that one). Young people from all over California were bused or drove to Berkeley. I believe that Dick Taylor and some other Orange County elders (a young Minoru Chen among them) were sent up as babysitters. It was an unmitigated disaster. It was a time in the Local Church that we were being encouraged to stop being "religious". So there was all sorts of "unreligious", sacreligous shenanigans that took place.

The main thing to keep in mind when people tell you about these kind of shenanigans is that Witness Lee knew all about it. In fact he was the one who encouraged it in the first place. Anyone who tells you otherwise either wasn't there, or is trying to protect "dear brother Lee's" reputation. Lee wasn't trying to gain power or control...he already had full power and full control of all the Local Churches in California already. Nothing...absolutely nothing happened in the Local Churches without his full knowledge. He only pretended not to know when the whole thing blew up in his face. And then he did what Witness Lee ALWAYS DID...he blamed someone else for his false teachings and blunders.
-
04-13-2020 12:59 PM
Ohio
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by theLCfurry View Post
Hey guys,

This may or may not be relevant to the topic in this thread, but I just remembered that last year during the semi-annual training, Ron gave a message about something, and while he was at it, he talked about some rebelling young people in Berkeley, CA during the 80s I think. He said that they were making fun of the older saints and that they were rebellious (I'm trying to remember as best as i can, and I'm positive he did say those things i just said) Do you guys know what happened in the conflict with the Young People in Berkeley, and is he just defaming criticism like he was with SI, JC, GC, and JA (and pretty much a lot of others too as usual)
Could it have been the late 1970's? Related to Max?

If so, then the responsibility lies squarely with W.Lee who instructed Max R. and others to go out and "stir things up," so that the young people would leave their own home-LC's and migrate to LSM-run LC's.

Max Rapoport (and his lieutenants) was blamed for everything. He was banished forever as the scapegoat for Azazel. Later on Max did repent for his own involvement as "agitator," officially known as the "universal coordinator of the one new man." WL, however, never took any responsibility for the fiasco which begun as the "young Galilean" movement. As was always the case during these so-called Recovery "rebellions," WL came out smelling like a rose.

As the infamous dictum instructs "never let a good crisis go to waste," so WL used this "opportunity" to exact more power and control over all of the LC's, which prior to this were somewhat "local."
04-13-2020 07:26 AM
theLCfurry
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Hey guys,

This may or may not be relevant to the topic in this thread, but I just remembered that last year during the semi-annual training, Ron gave a message about something, and while he was at it, he talked about some rebelling young people in Berkeley, CA during the 80s I think. He said that they were making fun of the older saints and that they were rebellious (I'm trying to remember as best as i can, and I'm positive he did say those things i just said) Do you guys know what happened in the conflict with the Young People in Berkeley, and is he just defaming criticism like he was with SI, JC, GC, and JA (and pretty much a lot of others too as usual)
04-12-2020 10:15 PM
Nell
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

2 Samuel 24:14 Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hand of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but let me not fall into the hand of man.

I think this verse is applicable here.

Nell
04-12-2020 02:15 PM
Trapped
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious View Post
RK is right to let the vengeance be in God’s hands, He testifies to that in the talk at the top of this thread, it’s God’s to repay, not ours, David says so too. But RK’s own heart is the thing that is wrong, so he has misconstrued the whole thing as a result.

Ron Kangas has not lamented for the hearts of those lost to the LC. His rants directed at Steve Isitt, and all the others he has named and cursed with his words do not even hint at the process David embarked upon as preparation to become a leader of ‘Israel’, (either that of the past or RK’s idea of a present equivalent). Even using his reference to the ground opening up and swallowing those who rebelled in Moses’ time….Moses did not will that punishment on the people. It was God’s doing, not Moses!! [Numbers 16:28]. Not RK’s place to decree the judgement.

He may well have felt ‘attacked’ by these people, he may have expressed his ‘fallen human concepts’ about it all as David did, if you want to refer to it that way. But he has done this publicly and repeatedly, over time. He has not gotten to the place of honouring and protecting those he is at odds with, as David did. David chose to treat Saul with honour in spite that Saul’s intentions towards David were indeed wicked. (That is not the same thing as seeking to speak a corrective word, as RK’s enemies have only sought to do).

Even putting that point aside, RK still fails to reflect God’s character at all.
Furthermore, this principle is stated in the NT:

Luke 6:28; ‘Bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you’
Romans 12: 14 ‘Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse!’

Totally agree. I've had some of these thoughts too. Moses did not stand there blustering about how he had authority and yet was going to commit the evil rebellion into God's sovereign hand to deal with. He did not say "God you can swallow these people alive into the earth if you want, I give it to You". He just gave it to God without the posturing.

And earlier in Numbers when God punished Miriam, Moses immediately asked for her healing. He asked God to heal the very person who had just rebelled against him!

I have heard "low pastors" from "evil Christianity" handle situations of "attack" in a much more humble, Christ-like, prayerful way than these guys ever have.

This is why Jo Casteel's prayer at her husband's funeral to "speak blessings to the local churches" was so amazing. Because it was so opposite from what we heard from the local church itself.
04-12-2020 06:40 AM
aron
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Thank you for this, Curious. Amazing insight and well said.

Nell
Yes, well-stated. And everything I wrote elsewhere on the Psalms presupposes this level of understanding and insight, which I believe Jesus had, and applied to himself (e.g., Luke 24:44), and which the early disciples would have been inculcated with. I keep pointing to the Epistle to the Hebrews as an exemplar: the author assumes such a shared view of OT scripture, among his readers. Without it, meaning is shorn away.

Thank you Curious for the time and effort - it's a blessing now available to all, that you shared with us.
04-12-2020 03:53 AM
Nell
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Thank you for this, Curious. Amazing insight and well said.

Nell
04-12-2020 01:24 AM
Curious
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

(With much respect for aron’s work on the psalms I hope he doesn’t mind me approaching them from a completely different, yet in my opinion, not at all contradictory, angle).

Looking at David as a young man, I’m going to borrow the analogy of Israel being a High School, King Saul the Principle, and David a star student who has outshone everyone, including the Principle, with some great achievement. He’s proven himself to be the most amazing student that ever could be, using ‘clever’, skill, and courage to achieve a great salvation for the school, saving it from bankruptcy. (A high-school related replacement to tackling Goliath).

Instead of being accepted, honoured, respected, for his great achievement, to his horror, the opposite happens. The principle of the school abandons his responsibilities as principle, and devotes all his energy to persecute his star pupil. It’s one thing to be bullied by the class bully, even the school bully, but the school PRINCIPLE is out to get you, when what you did was good, brave, noble, and protected everyone. Not only that, he wants to KILL YOU DEAD!!...and he’s got the police on his side! How would you or I cope if that became our reality?

Dropping that analogy now…

David is hiding in caves and nooks in the hillside, so scared he cannot sleep in case he is found and killed in the night or the next day. He had been anointed to be king by Samuel but this must seem a dim bad nightmare to him at this time. I imagine him to feel lost, confused at how it could all go so wrong, betrayed by Saul but also wondering what in earth happened with his God. How could this be His plan? Its clearly a disaster and all at his expense.
He could easily have become bitter and angry at God. However, though he was very honest about what he was going through emotionally, he found another way…

His pouring out of his feelings and processing of all this is recorded in the psalms. Once you think of the depths of betrayal he felt, the loss of trust in those in authority over him, whom he no doubt had looked up to and served with a sincere heart, his loss of faith in people and even his anger towards Saul is totally understandable. Because he was young, he was no doubt a bit innocent and naďve, as young people are, shocked at the brutality that envy can produce in others. At a loss to come to terms with it and how doing good could lead him into such a disastrous situation.

However, through it all, he pressed and kept pressing into God. He had ups and downs. Times where faith rose up in him. Times he could feel God’s presence and guidance. Times his despair overtook him and he expressed the depths of that too. There were no sleeping pills to turn to, to give him a break and some sleep to help him gain perspective. Even a realistic perspective in the natural is of no comfort anyway.

And in these ponderings and writings, amidst all this, perhaps especially his loss of faith in people, God showed him glimpses of the coming Messiah, Himself in the flesh. Someone whom he could have faith in that made it all worthwhile and gave him hope, against all the odds. David’s reward, as he suffered in hiding, were the insights given him of the plan God had made which he attested in the words he wrote. Foretelling of Jesus.

By the time Saul did enter his cave unbeknownst, to relieve himself, David had felt convicted to honour Saul regardless of Saul’s intent and conduct. This is the amazing thing. The words of his struggle are not at all reflected in the stance David then took as he interacted with Saul… this was the result. He stepped out in faith, and in righteousness and grace towards his enemy, trusting the character of God and reflecting it towards Saul…. because who he knew God to be, not who he knew Saul to be.

Are we like this towards our enemies?

David became so convinced of this that he became enraged at the young Philistine soldier who attempted to curry favour with David by claiming to have killed Saul, assuming that would have pleased David. So, David slaughtered him on the spot. David then goes on to grieve for his King in a lament as recorded. [1 Samuel chapter 31 – 2 Samuel chapter 1]. God gave that heart to David, in spite of how Saul had treated him. A heart that Saul did not understand or trust. Neither did the Philistine soldier.

RK is right to let the vengeance be in God’s hands, He testifies to that in the talk at the top of this thread, it’s God’s to repay, not ours, David says so too. But RK’s own heart is the thing that is wrong, so he has misconstrued the whole thing as a result.

Ron Kangas has not lamented for the hearts of those lost to the LC. His rants directed at Steve Isitt, and all the others he has named and cursed with his words do not even hint at the process David embarked upon as preparation to become a leader of ‘Israel’, (either that of the past or RK’s idea of a present equivalent). Even using his reference to the ground opening up and swallowing those who rebelled in Moses’ time….Moses did not will that punishment on the people. It was God’s doing, not Moses!! [Numbers 16:28]. Not RK’s place to decree the judgement.

He may well have felt ‘attacked’ by these people, he may have expressed his ‘fallen human concepts’ about it all as David did, if you want to refer to it that way. But he has done this publicly and repeatedly, over time. He has not gotten to the place of honouring and protecting those he is at odds with, as David did. David chose to treat Saul with honour in spite that Saul’s intentions towards David were indeed wicked. (That is not the same thing as seeking to speak a corrective word, as RK’s enemies have only sought to do).

Even putting that point aside, RK still fails to reflect God’s character at all.
Furthermore, this principle is stated in the NT:

Luke 6:28; ‘Bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you’
Romans 12: 14 ‘Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse!’


This consistency with words given many centuries later to become included in scripture, confirms David was indeed learning from God.

On the other hand, Saul persevered in and chose not to respond to the opportunities he had to change, twice David challenged him by choosing to do him no harm. [1 Samuel 24, 1 Samuel 26]. Just as the Pharoah of Egypt ignored the opportunities given to him to let the people go. They both chose stubborn determination to continue on their path. It seems RK is following that same way, too confident he is at liberty to.

The challenge rests instead before Steve Isitt and the others he has cursed and villainized. Are we taking the path David walked where our enemies are concerned?

Another point. When a person is so mistreated, when all they have done and intended has been good, its hard to see themselves as fallen or guilty of wrongdoing themselves. Especially while young. It would have been a great humbling for David to realise he himself, in other circumstances much later on in life, could be himself guilty of the shedding of innocent blood, to facilitate his own convenience. I am referring to the sin of adultery and murder to cover up. [Psalm 51]. Which is such a huge shift. He himself was as faithless as those who had sought to do him harm as a young man!

This humbling awareness is not present in the psalms of his early adult life. But we all, if we are honest, perceive our own vulnerability as sinners, either early or late in our lives. We learn in maturity that only Christ is good. Those around us betray us, and we also are capable of such betrayal to others too. That is the lesson of maturity and it is frightening.

RK’s theology conveniently sidesteps this frightening self-discovery. LC theology does provide an avoidance through various replacements, of this realization, I believe. The sad and only problem is, RK is deceiving himself and others, but not God. As referenced already, we are all directly called upon to pray for and bless those that harm us. I have my own battles that makes this real for me so I am not saying this lightly.

Netflix ‘When Will They See Us’ tells the true story of a great injustice. Even greater, a complete reversal of that injustice occurred. But it happened because the mother of a falsely accused young man got saved. And she prayed for her enemies. She blessed them, and then something amazing happened. And it’s a true story, the Christian part so key to the outcome that it is included in the secular movie. I advise anyone to watch that story if you haven’t already, and note the testimony that the mother speaks to her son about blessing your enemies just before it all turns around. This is our template as those who would be brothers and sisters of Christ. This means our conduct must be equal to his to be co-labourers with Him, achieving results His way, and ever grateful for our pardon.

That’s my message and challenge for all of us: myself, RK and those he has listed as enemies of the ‘truths’ of the LC….and all that have identified as being hurt or harmed by this movement. Not a comfortable solution but God’s one to us. Lest any of us be cut off. [Romans 11:22]
04-02-2020 03:46 PM
Terry
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
My concept of God's government is tied to obedience. "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as in heaven". We the disobedient are therefore disqualified to say much on God's government. "If you, being evil, can give good gifts to your children..." (Matt 7:11; Luke 11:13).

The LC's "government of God" is set on sinking sand, and its problems, both current and past, all stem from this. Jesus alone, as Christ and Son of God, is the rock. Our faith is in him, not some 'recovered truth' or 'delegated authority'. Anyone who gives themselves to these "powers and authorities" (cf Eph 1:21, 6:12) will suffer commensurably.

The cycle continues: Jane Anderson, John Ingalls, Steve Isitt, Jo and Greg Casteel.
The LC system doesn't make the distinction between God and man. Those in the lead see the Godhead linked to their own leading. To be in opposition to them is considered as being in opposition to God.
There have been brothers maintaining to have been obedient to God, but labeled as rebellious by man. well yes they would be rebellious to the LC system. No one can serve two masters. Many striving to be accepted in the local churches undoubtedly were man-fearing and not God-fearing as I ought to have been.
04-01-2020 11:12 AM
UntoHim
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious View Post
The question of forgiving does not even enter Ron Kangas' thinking, it appears he is completely oblivious to the cross of Jesus Christ and what His character and example to humanity communicate to us.
"Oblivious to the cross of Jesus Christ". I don't think the magnitude of this quip could possibly be overstated, even by a piteous hack like me (but since I can't help myself, I'll take a run at it anyway!)

Sorry my brother Ron if it seems like you are being picked on here, but you keep sticking your neck out in recent times, making yourself such an easy target, even for horrible shots like me. But not all of us are horrible shots - - witness this post by our forum member Curious. Obviously, we all know that you are not unfamiliar with the term "the cross of Jesus Christ", yet it seems that you have little to no appreciation for the sentiments, feelings and concerns of those "for whom Christ died". God forbid that any Christian brother be called an enemy to the cross of Christ, yet I must tell you that many of the words that you have been publicly speaking can rightly be classified as being an enemy to the cross of Christ. Keep in mind brother Ron, just as the Lord Jesus was not telling Peter that he was literally Satan (Witness Lee's false teachings notwithstanding), neither is anyone here telling you that you are literally an enemy to the cross of Christ. Yet just like Peter, who in his ignorance proclaimed "this shall never happen to you!", and thus became a temporal enemy of the cross, so you too, through your loose and careless speaking, have insulted those for whom Christ died. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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04-01-2020 03:12 AM
aron
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
The LC gets a lot of things wrong with their concept of what God's government is. When it is convenient for them to do so, they will claim that a person/situation is out of their control and it God will deal with it. By contrast, they will also speak about God's government as a way to defend their actions when they feel the need to take action against others, such as with those they deem to be "negative", "opposers", etc.

In the recording Ron speaks about leaders/elders who have hurt those they are leading. This is one of those issues where it is convenient for him to take the stance that it is all under "God's control" and that it will be dealt or work itself out somehow. He then says that when such leaders get dealt with by God they will be stronger spiritually. What is missing from this equation? Any regard for those who have been hurt.
I'd share a few ideas on my concepts of God's government. And yes they're concepts, just like RK and the LC have concepts. No more or less - concepts are examined, pruned, modified. They're not immutable truths to be received uncritically.

My concept of God's government is tied to obedience. "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as in heaven". We the disobedient are therefore disqualified to say much on God's government. "If you, being evil, can give good gifts to your children..." (Matt 7:11; Luke 11:13).

But we see in scripture Jesus, the Obedient Lamb of God, who is King of kings and Lord of Lords. God expresses His will through the scripture, the inspired Word of God, which Word is now Personified in the Son. We who receive this Son, by confessing his name and receiving his Holy Spirit, are now qualified to begin to participate in God's government. God loved us so much, that He sent His Son, and brought us back home. The obedience of Jesus is proved by God's raising him from the dead and giving him glory. This is why our faith opens the door. This is why our faith is imputed righteousness. It is in his obedience, not ours.

Then, consider Watchman Nee - he was trained and led by women, who were not "under the covering" of male leadership. And he was disobedient to them! Margaret Barber told him not to read Jessie Penn-Lewis, but he read "War on the Saints" and then cribbed it for his book "Spiritual Man". (The publisher's preface to the Second Edition admits this, calling the uncredited citations an oriental approval). Then, Miss Barber told him to obey Leland Wang, his elder, but eventually WN broke with Wang and took over the Shanghai Christian Assembly, whose hall Wang had purchased (Wang went on to be a preacher of renown, called "The Billy Graham of China").

So WN was at least doubly or perhaps even trebly disobedient to God's government.

Disclaimers: I'm also partly disobedient. Perhaps more than WN, who knows? Ye I say that there's a "rule" in the universe, and we all are held to it, as Jesus was. Obedience. There's no "special servant" who can make up their own rules as they go, and sidestep the divine law and the divine government. And I don't say that women should be subservient - they can receive light. They can teach. But the LC says women can't teach, but bases its own revelation on women's teaching! How is this system legitimate? Women were used (Ruth Lee, Peace Wang et al) to gain power, then were "sent down". Look at Jane Anderson: her 'crime' was to teach, encourage, console, exhort other Christians. In the LC this was deemed 'factious' and 'drawing others' and 'forming parties', yet all of these things WN and WL had done before her, and were doing. Why was she wrong? Why, she was a woman! For shame! And yet they laud other women as instrumental, pioneers of recovery.

The LC's "government of God" is set on sinking sand, and its problems, both current and past, all stem from this. Jesus alone, as Christ and Son of God, is the rock. Our faith is in him, not some 'recovered truth' or 'delegated authority'. Anyone who gives themselves to these "powers and authorities" (cf Eph 1:21, 6:12) will suffer commensurably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
The LC has such a tragic history of abuses that have been covered up. Among all those who have been hurt directly or indirectly through such abuses, it became necessary at one point or another to draw the line with the LC. The LC disregards such history as irrelevant, and also disregards the continued abuses, claiming that it is all allowed to happen under God's government. This is why the cycle continues.
The cycle continues: Jane Anderson, John Ingalls, Steve Isitt, Jo and Greg Casteel.
03-31-2020 09:31 PM
PriestlyScribe
Re: Phoenix - Ron is really trying to excuse himself condemning Jo, me, oth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
This is factually incorrect. The brother doing the recording did not sent it. He recorded the messages on another brothers server. Perhaps after the fact decided it is best to remove these messages off the server. By then it had been too late. Message began to circulate.
Yes Terry, and just to clarify this matter a little more for everyone, here is some background:

In 2007 a dear brother in South America had asked to use some of the storage space on a server that I was paying the bill for. This was fine with me since it was being under-utilized (I only had a few positive LC related websites back then). So I supplied that brother with the login information and left it at that. I trusted him fully and continued to keep the account paid up.

Some time later on, I began to look through files on my server and discovered a series of messages given by Ron Kangas in Ecuador. Because, at that time, I still had a considerable degree of respect for Ron's teaching gift, I began to listen intently to those messages. But when I got to the recording of that leaders fellowship, I was horrified to hear Ron slandering Steve Isitt by name! This is the moment when I made direct contact with Steve Isitt to let him know what I had discovered on "my" server. Steve Isitt was likewise very shocked because he had no idea this defamation had taken place.

At this point, due to this recording being evidence of lawless behaviour on the part of Ron Kangas, I felt that before God I was supposed to regain exclusive control over the server - so I changed the login without even notifying the dear brother I had formerly trusted with access.

Digging a little deeper on that server, I discovered there was an active Spanish language website where ALL of those Ambato Ecuador messages were publicly made available on the internet. These messages were even highly recommended for everyone's edification by the brothers in Cali Columbia! So this claim currently being made by Ron Kangas about someone violating confidentiality by making an unauthorized recording of his lawless speaking makes no sense at all.

That South American brother did try to contact me later on after I removed his access to the server, but there was no mention in his communications of an unauthorized audio recording needing to be taken down. BTW: I credit Ron Kangas with the destruction of my positive relationship with that brother in South America. Ron has way more than just Greg Casteel’s blood on his hands.

It’s possible that Ron may only be mentioning (spinning) this matter now because of the way I’ve relentlessly pressed the issue at this channel: https://youtu.be/ocr-FKHycWk (please check out the video description where I’ve been transparent about this whole matter)

Below is the original audio file of Ron Kangas' defaming of Steve Isitt. The time-stamp proves that it has been un-tampered with ever since being placed there by my South American friend, over 12 years ago:

comunion.para.hnos.r..> 2008-02-02 07:33 14M
03-31-2020 08:19 PM
Ohio
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Reading RK's responses and taking time to think about where LSM is at, it finally dawned on me how wrong, how heretical, and how dangerous were Nee's teachings on "spiritual authority."
03-31-2020 05:56 PM
Cal
Re: Phoenix - Ron is really trying to excuse himself condemning Jo, me, oth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
IAnd when the Lord sends prophets to you, calling for sober action and response, you would kill them as the prophets of old.
The Casteel's were prophets. So was John Ingalls. Steve Isitt. All the rest. Many here.
03-31-2020 03:49 PM
Terry
Re: Phoenix - Ron is really trying to excuse himself condemning Jo, me, oth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
RK SAYS:
So some years ago, in 2008, I went to the Ecuador in South America and I had a meeting with the leading brothers from various churches and I warned them of a very negative person spewing out all kinds of attacks. I gave the name, so they knew who he was. Then I found out that someone in that meeting violated confidentiality, recorded what I spoke, and sent it to this person.."
This is factually incorrect. The brother doing the recording did not sent it. He recorded the messages on another brothers server. Perhaps after the fact decided it is best to remove these messages off the server. By then it had been too late. Message began to circulate.
03-31-2020 03:40 PM
Terry
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by doggonit View Post
The spite and rancor Kangas speaks with is astounding. Dude, John Ingalls left your little personality cult over 30 years ago and is now passed away and with the Lord. Give it a rest. Really Ron, you should consider seeing a psych doc or something to take care of your deep seated anger issues. You seem to forget, John Ingalls was your deputy authority (or deputy deputy authority under brother Lee) and YOU rebelled against him! Repent! Don't you know that even if the deputy authority is wrong he is right!
As much as RK had been speaking about grace in the message, it is apparent speaking about grace and living out grace are not the same.
03-31-2020 03:29 PM
Ohio
Re: Phoenix - Ron is really trying to excuse himself condemning Jo, me, oth

Quote:
Ron Kangas SAYS:

So some years ago, in 2008, I went to the Ecuador in South America and I had a meeting with the leading brothers from various churches and I warned them of a very negative person spewing out all kinds of attacks. I gave the name, so they knew who he was. Then I found out that someone in that meeting violated confidentiality, recorded what I spoke, and sent it to this person. And, for some reason he put it online to make it known to the world and then he filed a lawsuit against me, [for] slandering him. As soon as I heard this, I had no fear. I had no anger, I had no anxiety and I just said, Lord I give this to you."
I find these comments so "LSM-like" yet when read soberly and objectively, they are so absurd and obnoxious. What is Kangas thinking, in this age of communication and surveillance, when he gets upset that his statements got back to Steve Isitt? Did he never read the verse about everything "shouted from the roof tops?" What was he thinking?

So, Ron Kangas had "no fear?" Could it be the reason is that LSM has storehouses of cash? Sorry Ron, but your attitude displays no semblance of faith or trust in God. You are a bully. You attack the little ones. You have a long history of slandering your brothers in Christ -- those who seek righteousness and speak their conscience. Something those at LSM know nothing about.

Quote:
Regarding Greg and Jo Casteel
"Then, after the training in July, maybe you remember there were some strong words spoken concerning rebellion and some serious words spoken about misrepresenting God, And about 5 or 6 weeks later the husband of the one who was being the most vociferous, speaking the most, every kind of evil, negative thing, took his life."

"Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands'. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter)
Ron, you have no need to fight back? Seriously? Greg Casteel is dead. A family is destroyed. Why? The sister was obligated by law to report criminal actions. Mr. Kangas, it is rare to find a leader so callous as you. What happened to you? Have you no empathy? For many years this couple was extremely devoted to your ministry. There was no guile in them. Then they learned about numerous abuses by LC leaders. How could they be silent? Their heart and the Bible demanded that they speak up.

Mr. Kangas, it grieves me that you have forsaken the plain words of the Lord Jesus and His apostles in order to vindicate your judgments, looking for some O.T. justifications for your behavior. What kind of minister would claim to be today's Moses? Jesus Christ Himself is today's Moses! Not you! And when the Lord sends prophets to you, calling for sober action and response, you would kill them as the prophets of old.
03-31-2020 10:56 AM
Freedom
Re: Phoenix - Ron is really trying to excuse himself condemning Jo, me, oth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious View Post
To forgive in this way reflects God’s character directly. This 'poor degraded Christian' out there in RK's 'spiritual darkness' has reflected God’s character in his handling of those ‘attackers and opposers’ that he encounters, (though he fails to give them such negative labels!) RK mentions the ground opening up and swallowing his ‘opposers’, and laughs about it. His only testimony is to his own seared conscience, as noted already. Peter Horrobin and Jesus pray to forgive, citing deception and ignorance, and not 'evil' in those at odds with them. The contrast is stark enough, I don’t think I need to labour it, I know which camp I would be found in….!
This is a good point. I've heard some of the different things things that Ron has said and it seems that he will frequently make statements to imply that he is just going to let God deal with the situation. Except that he doesn't actually do that. He keeps coming back to some issues again and again to where it is obvious that he is obsessed with it, even though he denies it.
03-31-2020 01:34 AM
Curious
Re: Phoenix - Ron is really trying to excuse himself condemning Jo, me, oth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Words of Ron Kangas: "So some years ago, in 2008, I went to the Ecuador in South America and I had a meeting with the leading brothers from various churches and I warned them of a very negative person spewing out all kinds of attacks. I gave the name, so they knew who he was. Then I found out that someone in that meeting violated confidentiality, recorded what I spoke, and sent it to this person. And, for some reason he put it online to make it known to the world and then he filed a lawsuit against me, [for] slandering him. As soon as I heard this, I had no fear. I had no anger, I had no anxiety and I just said, Lord I give this to you."

Regarding Greg and Jo Casteel
"Then, after the training in July, maybe you remember there were some strong words spoken concerning rebellion and some serious words spoken about misrepresenting God, And about 5 or 6 weeks later the husband of the one who was being the most vociferous, speaking the most, every kind of evil, negative thing, took his life."

"Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands'. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter) Now, I was not suppressing my feelings, I was not gritting my teeth. I was not trying to be a hero. it was effortless, because I'm learning slowly, 'let Christ live again' the life He lives under the government of God, the Lord kept committing all His insults and injuries to Him who judges righteously in His government, the righteous God to whom He submitted Himself."
I am going to share a quote from a Christian leader out here in ‘poor degraded Christianity’ in contrast to the way RK has described his response to: himself and his ministry being called into question on a public forum, as documented above.

Found in the book ‘The Most Powerful Prayer On Earth’ by Peter Horrobin.
The prayer referred to in the title of this book is actually Jesus’ last prayer as he was dying on the cross where he said, ‘Forgive them father, for they do not know what they are doing’. [Luke 23:34]

Beginning on Page 62, on the subject of gaining freedom from those who would steal a person’s reputation through the malicious spreading of lies and slander, the author writes:

‘Many years ago certain people said and wrote totally untrue words about me and the ministry I am involved in. Even today I come across people whose first instinct is to have nothing to do with us because of the words that were lodged in their memories.

‘The laws of most countries have provisions to protect the good name of individuals from such slander and libel. Not only is it a serious legal offense to steal a man’s good name, but it is also a serious offense before God [Exod. 20:16; Prov. 19.5; Matt 15:19-20]

‘However, the fact that what they are doing is wrong does not give me an excuse to harbor bitterness in my own heart against such thieves! By doing so I would only make it harder for people to find out the truth and change their opinion. Each time I come across someone who has been negatively affected by the words people have said or written is a fresh opportunity to forgive them and pray the most powerful prayer on earth! Ultimately the truth will be revealed, and God has to be the vindicator of our reputation……

‘People stole [Jesus] reputation. They did him a terrible disservice. [referring to all those responsible for bringing him to the cross]. But ‘Father, forgive them’ was ultimately all that Jesus said. He could only have prayed this prayer to God if his own heart was forgiving towards those who had hurt him….but….all of the accusations against Jesus were demonstrated to be untrue on resurrection morning!’


To forgive in this way reflects God’s character directly. This 'poor degraded Christian' out there in RK's 'spiritual darkness' has reflected God’s character in his handling of those ‘attackers and opposers’ that he encounters, (though he fails to give them such negative labels!) RK mentions the ground opening up and swallowing his ‘opposers’, and laughs about it. His only testimony is to his own seared conscience, as noted already. Peter Horrobin and Jesus pray to forgive, citing deception and ignorance, and not 'evil' in those at odds with them. The contrast is stark enough, I don’t think I need to labour it, I know which camp I would be found in….!

My final thought is, maybe the one commentator has nothing to hide, and is truly not guilty of the words spread around, and has a commitment to grace rather than trying to win the toss. While the other does have something to hide, so keeps returning to the subject even many years later, as he will never be at inner peace on the matter till he resolves it in God’s way. The question of forgiving does not even enter RK's thinking, it appears he is completely oblivious to the cross of Jesus Christ and what His character and example to humanity communicate to us. In contrast, Peter Horrobin does not name those who spoke against him, a further indication that he is just mentioning a principle, not rehashing an unresolved grievance.
03-30-2020 12:37 PM
Freedom
Re: Phoenix - Ron is really trying to excuse himself condemning Jo, me, oth

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKangas View Post
"Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands'. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter) Now, I was not suppressing my feelings, I was not gritting my teeth. I was not trying to be a hero. it was effortless, because I'm learning slowly, 'let Christ live again' the life He lives under the government of God, the Lord kept committing all His insults and injuries to Him who judges righteously in His government, the righteous God to whom He submitted Himself."
Ron may not realize it, but it can be guaranteed that there are current LC members who see these types of situations occur and think to themselves "this situation could have been handled better." Especially in light of such a tragic situation, Ron should have expected many more emails than he received.

Whenever situations occur where there was the potential for a different outcome, that should be the opportunity for those like Ron to stop and reflect. Unfortunately, some of these men have to much pride to do anything besides double down on their positions. Eventually it's going to come back to bite them.
03-29-2020 05:47 PM
Cal
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Is everything an attack of the enemy to this guy?
It's called a siege mentality.
03-29-2020 05:28 PM
Terry
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Thanks, I didn't make the connection that it was all the same meeting.

This is neither here nor there but the first two minutes are Ron talking about having bronchitis with a tiny bit of pneumonia which he stayed at home to recover from, and at around 2 minutes 28 seconds calls it "an attack of the enemy".

Is everything an attack of the enemy to this guy? If he stubs his toe or spills some milk does he call that an attack of the enemy?
It is not just RK, but an example of the LC system. Anything unfavorable that occurs is "an attack of the enemy".
Suppose a locality is building an addition to their meeting hall and it doesn't get approved by the building inspector, "it's an attack of the enemy".

Is it that difficult to be accountable and take responsibility for once?
03-29-2020 05:12 PM
Indiana
Jo and Greg Casteel

This speaking by Ron Kangas shows that he thought he was under God's government when dealing with Greg and Jo Casteel last summer. But such a display was totally void of mercy, grace, or understanding. There was no rule of God, and neither was there His presence. Such is the government typically found in the Local Churches.

He thought that comparing Jo to leprous Miriam was the perfect example to instruct others not to follow her and he added with vehemence "God will not let THIS rebellion continue!'

There was no rebellion, however; just a judge creating an atmosphere of doom - and the judge was not Jehovah or the Lord Jesus Christ - it was Ron Kangas, mishandling people and misrepresenting God and His authority.

Then increasing his intensity, Ron used Old Testament accounts of God judging His people to instill fear in all who would continue on this path of "rebellion".

Although Ron suggested God would not judge in that way today, he seemed intent upon bringing them down one way or the other.

In a word, Ron Kangas was the very antithesis of representing God and His government, having had no semblance of God in His love toward the Casteels and for those interested in what they had to say.

Such is the wretched condition of Local Church government. Not to be confused with the government of God. These are two different entities and realms.
03-29-2020 04:03 PM
doggonit
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Hey Ron, have you ever considered being a stand up comedian? That "and this is not false humility" had em rollin in the isles! What ya pullin down over at the mother ship there in Anaheim, 75-80gs? I bet you could make that in one month over at the Irvine improv!!!

Of course you have no fear or anger or anxiety. You would have to have a fully functioning conscience to experience any of those things. Your conscience is apparently bound to a guy who died back in the mid 90s and this is not a very good thing for someone claiming to be some sort of leader in a christian ministry.
03-29-2020 01:31 PM
Indiana
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

What Trapped has highlighted here resonates in me also, every word.
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03-29-2020 11:53 AM
Trapped
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Thanks, I didn't make the connection that it was all the same meeting.

This is neither here nor there but the first two minutes are Ron talking about having bronchitis with a tiny bit of pneumonia which he stayed at home to recover from, and at around 2 minutes 28 seconds calls it "an attack of the enemy".

Is everything an attack of the enemy to this guy? If he stubs his toe or spills some milk does he call that an attack of the enemy?

It's also incredibly telling that upon having some responsibility put upon him for his words, his description is "didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety". Sounds like a seared conscience. He apparently "can do no wrong."

I can't believe the guy would joke about any of it.

Or that the "saints" would laugh along with him.
03-29-2020 06:30 AM
UntoHim
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Apparently it was at the "2020 Phoenix Blending Conference". Please see post #11 (edited for clarity)
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03-28-2020 11:10 PM
Trapped
Re: Phoenix - Ron is really trying to excuse himself condemning Jo, me,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Greg and Jo Casteel

"Then, after the training in July, maybe you remember there were some strong words spoken concerning rebellion and some serious words spoken about misrepresenting God, And about 5 or 6 weeks later the husband of the one who was being the most vociferous, speaking the most, every kind of evil, negative thing, took his life.

Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands”. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter) Now, I was not suppressing my feelings, I was not gritting my teeth. I was not trying to be a hero. it was effortless, because I'm learning slowly, 'let Christ live again' the life He lives under the government of God, the Lord kept committing all His insults and injuries to Him who judges righteously in His government, the righteous God to whom He submitted Himself."
Where and when was this spoken?
03-28-2020 09:26 PM
Indiana
Phoenix - Ron is really trying to excuse himself condemning Jo, me, others!

Ron Kangas has spoken about me erroneously at least three times beginning in Ecuador, then in the Philippines in January, and now in Phoenix early this month, March. He has never talked to me. And speaks inaccurately about me. I speak accurately about him before God and man and ask him for his response. He doesn't respond, because he deals only with the well-guarded fictional accounts of our church history, so he dummies up with nothing to say. And his counterparts do the same and treat truth as if it were their enemy.
See www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

A Time of Turmoil and the Defaming of a Leader: Examining Ron Kangas' Slanted and Superficial Depiction of John Ingalls (Coming Back to the Vision at the Beginning of the Lord's Recovery) (Volume 3): Isitt, Stephen: 9781505640137: Amazon.com: Books
https://www.amazon.com/Time-Turmoil-.../dp/150564013X

Phoenix March 2020 - Phoenix Blending Conference
http://churchinphoenix.org/conf/2020/index.html (see message one)

START at 1:10:12 - 1 hour ten minutes, 12 seconds
http://churchinphoenix.org/conf/2020...20_MSG1_EN.mp3

RK SAYS:
“Let me just tell you this, and this is not false humility, this is just frankness. The Lord knows, I am not a simple case. If I can learn a certain spiritual lesson any believer can learn, and probably faster."

So some years ago, in 2008, I went to the Ecuador in South America and I had a meeting with the leading brothers from various churches and I warned them of a very negative person spewing out all kinds of attacks. I gave the name, so they knew who he was. Then I found out that someone in that meeting violated confidentiality, recorded what I spoke, and sent it to this person. And, for some reason he put it online to make it known to the world and then he filed a lawsuit against me, [for] slandering him. As soon as I heard this, I had no fear. I had no anger, I had no anxiety and I just said, Lord I give this to you."

And then, I was traveling with a brother who served with DCP, and once they found out about it, they decided, okay we’ll have to do something, but I wasn't relying on what man would do, and eventually there was another coworker involved and they went to the judge. And, “the judge said 'this is ridiculous' and threw it away. This is spoken to the Christian gathering in Ambato, and you’re the one who wanted to put the thing online. He must have some motive behind it that he wants me to do.

Regarding Greg and Jo Casteel
"Then, after the training in July, maybe you remember there were some strong words spoken concerning rebellion and some serious words spoken about misrepresenting God, And about 5 or 6 weeks later the husband of the one who was being the most vociferous, speaking the most, every kind of evil, negative thing, took his life."

"Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands'. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter) Now, I was not suppressing my feelings, I was not gritting my teeth. I was not trying to be a hero. it was effortless, because I'm learning slowly, 'let Christ live again' the life He lives under the government of God, the Lord kept committing all His insults and injuries to Him who judges righteously in His government, the righteous God to whom He submitted Himself."

My Responses
My "spewing out attacks" was Ron's way of reacting to well-documented sources of truth-speaking that featured the righteous accounts of formerly beloved leaders.
https://www.amazon.com/Deviating-Pat.../dp/1505461170

Sole Purpose for Lawsuit
From January 2001 to January 2007 I had addressed leaders. And when they did not respond, I approached them in a different way, through the U. S. government. My sole purpose for doing so was to wake them up!

"Someone Violated Confidentiality act"
Ron, The message was taped officially at an ITERO CONFERENCE, to be heard elsewhere. The person who informed me wasn't even in the conference of leaders in Ambato and he did not receive a link from someone reporting to him what you said.

"For some reason he put the tape online"
The reason was to expose you and your supposed "confidential speaking" which included your words about me being a "man of death" and "one of the most evil speakers on the internet". And, "for some reason", you didnt return my two phone calls or respond to my letter to explain to me your public charges against me. You have yet to support your damaging claims.

So DCP went to the judge
Nothing you have said in Phoenix has any merit whatsoever and is a mini repeat of your colossal mistakes and damage done in your Ambato appearance. You spoke carelessly too in the Philippines, and now you tell of of your interaction with DCP. What are we to believe from that interaction? Both of you live to protect and cover up what you should be judging.
03-14-2020 10:05 AM
Ohio
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by doggonit View Post
The spite and rancor Kangas speaks with is astounding. Dude, John Ingalls left your little personality cult over 30 years ago and is now passed away and with the Lord. Give it a rest. Really Ron, you should consider seeing a psych doc or something to take care of your deep seated anger issues. You seem to forget, John Ingalls was your deputy authority (or deputy deputy authority under brother Lee) and YOU rebelled against him! Repent! Don't you know that even if the deputy authority is wrong he is right!
Doggonit, Point well taken.

Really no different from LC ancestors -- the Exclusive British Brethren -- who also demanded for generations that George Muller be soundly condemned for his actions standing up to their grandpa MOTA -- J N Darby -- during his faux quarantine of B W Newton of Plymouth.

But let's not also forget the Divine response. It has been said that our Heavenly Father perhaps responded with more direct and verifiable answers to Muller's prayers than any servant of God in church history.

If God is for us, who can be against us?
03-14-2020 08:32 AM
doggonit
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

The spite and rancor Kangas speaks with is astounding. Dude, John Ingalls left your little personality cult over 30 years ago and is now passed away and with the Lord. Give it a rest. Really Ron, you should consider seeing a psych doc or something to take care of your deep seated anger issues. You seem to forget, John Ingalls was your deputy authority (or deputy deputy authority under brother Lee) and YOU rebelled against him! Repent! Don't you know that even if the deputy authority is wrong he is right!
03-13-2020 01:57 PM
Indiana
Re:Open Letter to Ron Kangas 3- 2020

Dear brother Ron,

I see that you have again chosen this path of speaking carelessly about me and about John Ingalls. Why? You have certainly been given enough time and opportunity to know the history and to help others to know it, but you will not conduct yourself accordingly and become a righteous one in the matter. Yet it is required under God’s government for you to do so. Representation of God requires capitulation to Him, and His activity.

But before going further, let me say something quite favorably about “the LSM brothers” who have contributed to the spiritual welfare and beautiful scene of the 900+ churches and several thousands of saints enjoying Christ in the Philippines. They certainly have benefited practically and spiritually from the ministries of brothers Nee and Lee in their beginning years, and also from laboring brothers since then, including Anaheim’s. I saw videos regarding this and watched them over and over and emailed them to three pastors and other people I know in the Philippines. I also put these videos on our forums for current and former LC members, and have sent them to others in the U. S.

It is not the tremendous upside I have a problem with in our history, but the incredible downside and the need for current leaders to ascend to the Throne and hold the scepter of uprightness with Him Who “loves righteousness and hates lawlessness,” that leaders might obtain the “oil of exultant joy” also; and be in a splendid condition for leading many more “sons” to the Throne with them and its foundation of righteousness and justice. (Ps 89:14)

You and “the brothers” are just a thorough and profoundly important repentance away from leadership, and for making straight the way of the Lord.

www.LordsRecovery.us

Includes John Ingalls account of events and concerns he faced in the late 80s turmoil, and having been in the first eldership in the U. S., he faithfully records the path of deviation from the early way in the churches that took place and the “change of nature” it brought into “the recovery” that resulted.

Steve Isitt
03-12-2020 09:35 AM
Indiana
Re: Ron's record of Defamation has to STOP

I did a search just now trying to catch more of the 8-message conference Ron was a part of in January, 2020, a month and a half ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPbRZsHYtEw

08 THE RECOVERY OF THE CHURCH AS THE ISRAEL OF GOD
Ron Kangas
PTERO MALABON Philippines January 17-19, 2020
03-11-2020 05:16 PM
Curious
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

'I want to be like God!!'

Hot tip from the leaders of the Lord 's Recovery: its easy to be like God, just pretend you ARE Him. Attribute to yourself all the privileges authority and power that come with being God, and voila, you will be like God, (at least in your own eyes!!)

Then you never have to review your own behavior, as God never has to do that!! That's just for lowly sinners to do!! Leave that messy uncomfortable confusion behind you, just let go and BECOME Him! And everything will be easy and pleasant for you!

(just do it somewhere else, cause we are the God's of this place!)
03-11-2020 12:28 PM
Indiana
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

In my attempts to contact Ron Kangas, he has not responded to have communication with me directly. In his current speaking about God's government, he ends his talk by referring to me as "a destructive person," one who violates God's government.

www.IntheWakeoftheNewWay.com


Ron Kangas does not know as he ought to know. He just talks, and talks....

He talks about people. As if he has no conscience about what he is saying....

And, this is the problem with him and his counterparts. Under their otherwise healthy form of teaching on church government, they include a diabolical element that corrupts, requiring of them to suppress their conscience about things regarding their hidden history. Their practice of denying the truth of turmoil and division, etc., has taken its toll on "our" brothers and on their collective conscience. And the fruit? Manifestly, is not good.

Whether unwittingly or not, the current leadership has come under a rule of authority that has its roots in the beginning years in Shanghai, and has emerged as the "covering of Noah" doctrine "to see, hear, and speak no evil" of a deputy authority of God. This involves most conspicuously the covering up of sins and failures among the leaders, past and present, especially the two designated as a "minister of the age". They are treated more like gods and not men who can err, commit and confess sins, be covered properly and forgiven that transparency and love both would prevail in the Body.

So the misguided leaders and saints do not mess with what is written and been accepted in the churches as truth. To "our" leaders whatever their mentor before them has said is truth, and his version of the official history is not even examined by them, and all blame is "DUTIFULLY" displaced onto others. This is where Ron Kangas turns aside and errs greatly in his supposed representation of God and His government.

His characterization of me has gone out falsely - as in Ecuador, so now also in the Philippines. In both places and (and in others that I don't know about) he missteps.

In Ecuador and South America his word about me was spread, damaging my name and person. In the Philippines he didn't mention my name publicly on the tape, but dozens or hundreds know who he was talking about. So, this was very foolish of him. And, he speaks about those with power in the church damaging others, and seems totally detached from what his international platform does to me and others he carelessly and unfairly condemns.

www.LeadersoftheLordsrecovery.us
03-11-2020 11:43 AM
Freedom
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

The LC gets a lot of things wrong with their concept of what God's government is. When it is convenient for them to do so, they will claim that a person/situation is out of their control and it God will deal with it. By contrast, they will also speak about God's government as a way to defend their actions when they feel the need to take action against others, such as with those they deem to be "negative", "opposers", etc.

In the recording Ron speaks about leaders/elders who have hurt those they are leading. This is one of those issues where it is convenient for him to take the stance that it is all under "God's control" and that it will be dealt or work itself out somehow. He then says that when such leaders get dealt with by God they will be stronger spiritually. What is missing from this equation? Any regard for those who have been hurt.

The LC has such a tragic history of abuses that have been covered up. Among all those who have been hurt directly or indirectly through such abuses, it became necessary at one point or another to draw the line with the LC. The LC disregards such history as irrelevant, and also disregards the continued abuses, claiming that it is all allowed to happen under God's government. This is why the cycle continues.
03-10-2020 07:39 PM
Freedom
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Given the way that Ron speaks, it seems that he thinks that he himself is God's government. Early on in the recording, Ron says "I'm not aiming my words at anyone." Then at the end, he mentions what he spoke in South America. It just goes to show just how self-serving these types of messages really are.
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03-10-2020 05:19 PM
Terry
Re: The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

Listening to Ron speaking, you could say "RK continues to try to establish his concept of" grace. Abstract, impersonal, and lacking any subjectivity.
In a real subjective experience of grace, there is warmness to ones who had left.
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03-10-2020 03:46 PM
Indiana
The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

I have received a video from a recent training in the Philippines that got my attention immediately to see what speaker Ron Kangas would have to say on The Universal Government of God.

I speak in response to what Ron had to say - for he has again spoken about me - and admits he went to S. America in 2008 to deal with a "certain destructive brother," a reference to me.

To those who have been acquainted with his long string of authoritarian behavior in the churches, there is a ready understanding of why I am compelled to respond, and once again correct his inaccuracies and offer the following link to
LSM's destructive past and cover-ups
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...60&postcount=1

RK continues to try to establish his concept of
The Universal Government of God
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9gJta6G6Qc

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