06-28-2017 04:53 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
As for "the ministry" and meetings, not so much. And in too many cases, even if you argue that all of them can help, it takes more than just immersing yourself into those to be brought back to health. It takes action by someone(s) other than just yourself. Otherwise there would not be the case of God sending anyone to anyone else. Or a writer needing to write something to anyone concerning anything. (I am referring to the things recorded in the Bible, not just anyone or any writer.) Quote:
Somehow this seems like works of the wrong kind taught by a group that despises works of the right kind. Quote:
There is no "great commission" that stands above the "great commandment. That label is the addition of man years after the fact. Jesus commanded many things, and very specifically stated that the greatest commandment was actually two — Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. You can rightly state that it is loving to help anyone come to know and believe in Christ. But even the example and context of the command did not involve anything that remotely resembled preaching the gospel. So I would assume that all the other things that Christ commanded are just as great as any other. You are correct that Jesus did take the 11 disciples aside and commanded them to go and disciple the earth. And within that command was the charge to teach the new disciples to obey all that Christ commanded, not just that one command. And when it comes to following that command, it is generally important that the message be clear and not muddied by other problems. Problems like failure to obey they multitude of commands that Jesus gave. Like the guy I used to work with that ordered a radar detector every year with a 30-day money-back guarantee to arrive within a week of leaving on a cross-country trip to take his family to visit his wife's family on Long Island. They stayed for 2 months while he flew back home and worked, then flew back to drive them back home. Of course, with a newly-ordered radar detector arriving just before leaving Long Island. So he used two radar detectors (to help him break the law) every year without ever paying for them. But he was the most vocal Christian around. Not much testimony. Didn't convince anyone at work that they should believe. This is the problem with your version of the "calling" of a church (assembly). It is primarily the time in which the body of Christ meets together to repent, pray, worship, and be further reminded or taught about what Christ commanded. Not just to have enjoyment (like today's quote from Lee about the meaning of grace). Or to evangelize the earth. There are people specifically called to that ministry. People like Billy Graham. And others, both locally in our assemblies and who go to mission fields and other evangelistic efforts. And we all get involved in some ways at some times, but not all the time — other than the preaching of the gospel that occurs through our living. And for most of us, this is our primary "preaching." And it takes more than knowing the right words for that preaching. It takes evidence of lives that are righteous. That don't just snub the traffic laws (and especially not brag about it). That are kind toward those we might otherwise think of as sinners. Even the "worst kind" like gays, or the woman living with her boy friend. And this really hits home when we work with them. Do we think that we have gained any ground to "preach" verbally when we are semi-hostile the rest of the time? I wouldn't want to know the god that made people that way. First, my comment that you posted that reply to was not about any command. It was on the focus of the LRC meetings and "spirituality." But if you can't come up with more than he one command besides the so-called "great commission" then it is evident that they teachings of the LRC are not very much according to Christ. |
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06-27-2017 05:37 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Visitors To browse this site and watch a sample video without registering, That will take you inside. There is a Witness Lee section but I don't know if subscribing gets you access to all videos or just a select few "flavor of the month" ones. I can see a lot of training and conference videos going back to the 70's. |
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06-27-2017 05:31 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Is there a page that tells you what you get for your $9.95? Nothing on this page says anything about content. Most Witness Lee hits on YouTube are not Lee himself. Usually they are someone else talking about him. |
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06-27-2017 04:03 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
They run a webcast subscription service, for $9.95 per month where you can watch Lee's videos: http://www.lsmwebcast.com/ So I think that is a plausible reason why they don't release them for free, and it may have nothing to do with what you are claiming. You are right the Youtube ones seem to be from individuals. Still, a quick youtube search of "Witness Lee" reveals over 6000 search results. Many of the videos are of poor quality or in Chinese. |
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06-27-2017 09:41 AM | ||||||||
Nell |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I believe there are at least 2 more reasons why they don't release the video messages: 1) The messages have been edited, massaged, polished, etc., ... to the extent that they do not resemble the original spoken message. Did you ever look up something in the printed message you KNOW you heard him say only to find that IT WASN'T THERE? Have you compared versions of the same book, only to discover that even the books they are reprinting aren't the same? 2) I remember listening to Lee on video in the local video trainings. It was the most boring thing I ever tried to sit through. Night after night...he was just sitting there...droning on and on. Buzzzzzzzzz. No energy. It seemed that he had lost interest in what he was doing and was even bored with himself. It was awful. My guess they don't want to embarrass themselves by promoting this version of the MOTA. Nell |
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06-27-2017 09:21 AM | ||||||||
Nell |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The requirements for speaking in God's name are high, to say the least. Deut. 18 talks about the prophet who presumes to speak what God has not spoken. How does one know the source, whether it be God or man...a false prophet? If the prophesy comes to pass, it was spoken by God. In Deut. 13 the same topic is covered with the stipulation that the prophesy does not lead the people to serve other Gods. Has Witness Lee's "vision/ministry" come to pass? How does Witness Lee measure up to the standard for only speaking what God speaks? Does Lee's ministry point others to God or to Lee? I think the answers to these questions have been well established. Then there's your question: "Yet, after 40 some years, in your own view, how much closer is the Lord's Recovery to that vision?" The "vision" of Martin Luther has withstood the test of time. Justification by faith was "uncovered" because it was locked away in a language that few understood. Luther worked much of his life to translate the Bible into a language that was understood, then worked to set the translated Bible to press, making it available to the people. Christianity has progressed 500 years on this simple fact which was "uncovered" by Luther: Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Justification by faith withstood the test of time because it was spoken by God...not Luther. Your list of the fruit of Witness Lee's "vision", after 40 years, is a good one. Nell |
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06-27-2017 08:13 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Obviously LSM is hesitant to let the public see Witness Lee in action and unfiltered. And your profit motive point doesn't apply. LSM is making no income from Lee videos now. So what do they have to lose? |
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06-26-2017 06:44 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-26-2017 04:30 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God You are in essence saying that no fellowships have the reality of Christ? |
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06-26-2017 04:23 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But if you youtube living stream ministries there is plenty of material online there. Lots of videos of Lee, Ron speaking and others. 62000 results. Most books are readable for free from living stream website. You can't really claim that the message is controlled if they are providing free access to most books (and the most controversial ones). |
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06-26-2017 03:45 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Concerning the general vision of the LCM. Universal->Local->Personal->Building up. These are good ideas which are much more widespread in current Christianity that Drake knows. (Drake talked about the Baptist Church, but I doubt he has been in one for decades. Mutuality and the reality of the Body of Christ building itself up are mainstream concepts now. They just aren't taught using the same terminology that the LCM uses. But, regardless, if the LCM really wanted to enlighten poor Christianity all they would have to do is repackage good, general LCM teachings in a more modern, accessible format, instead of the stiff, turgid prose and dry presentation they tend to use. I believe there would be some benefit there. Alas, the LCM is really not interested in helping anyone but themselves. They really don't want to feed the sheep; they want to control the flock. They don't want to cast their bread upon the waters; they want to be the only bakery in town. For example, why doesn't the LCM release videos of Witness Lee teaching in trainings and conferences onto the Internet? Why are those kept under wraps? What are they afraid of? What could be more genuine an expression of his ministry than him speaking? Yet, as great as they think he was, they seem reluctant to show him to the rest of the world. That's weird. The reason is they want to control the message. They don't want their stuff to spread into Christianity because here's what will happen if they do: The best and good stuff will be received and the junk will be rejected. Once that happens the only unique thing the LCM will have to offer is the junk that the rest of the Body rejected. They really are just all about themselves. |
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06-26-2017 01:07 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I wonder if anyone has considered factors from going away from testimonies according to one's daily walk with the Lord to prophesying according to a ministry? |
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06-26-2017 12:58 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Who does? I'm sure there may be assemblies out there that may have a better grasp than most. Generally speaking there are no fellowship of churches who can back the claim of "having the reality of the Body of Christ". |
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06-25-2017 07:04 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I don't know about you, but my own personal feeling is that it is getting less local (the "One Ministry" outweighing the locality); not getting universal (widening of the gap between the Lord's Recovery and Christianity plus divisions from within); less personal ("corporate experience" outweighing the personal); and functioning more mechanically than organically (jumping to "answers" in the RcV footnotes and ministry messages instead of going through the necessary personal exploration and meditation to get the truth). In the prophesying meeting just passed, when I watched the brothers and sisters speak one-by-one, I was glad that they have the heart to pursue God's truth. But I know it would be many many times better if they can break the invisible boundry of repeating again and again the minstry's messages and instead share their true personal experience of Christ and their direct findings (or even questions) from studying God's words (i.e. The Bible). This is kind of like a butterfly trapped in a glass house. May be it can see the great vision of the wonderful world outside the glass house. Day by day, it hits into the invisible glass wall and cannot reach any closer to the great light it sees. May be the flowers grown by man inside the glass house can well sustain its life, but it will never enjoy the full riches in the wonderful nature created by God unless it starts to seek for the right way to reach out to what it sees. I would also like to share with you the final passage from C.S.Lewis' "Surprised By Joy: The Shape of My Early Life": But I now know that the experience, considered as a state of my own mind, had never had the kind of importance I once gave it. It was valuable only as a pointer to something other and outer. While that other was in doubt, the pointer naturally loomed large in my thoughts. When we are lost in the woods the sight of a signpost is a great matter. He who first sees it cries “Look!” The whole party gathers round and stares. But when we have found the road and are passing signposts every few miles, we shall not stop and stare. They will encourage us and we shall be grateful to the authority that set them up. But we shall not stop and stare, or not much; not on this road, though their pillars are of silver and their lettering of gold. “We would be at Jerusalem.” May be we have stopped and stared for too long. |
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06-25-2017 10:49 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Ok. Thanks. |
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06-25-2017 10:31 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God UntoHim) "Drake, this is where your testimony comes off the rails. Are you actually telling us that you attended meetings of the Local Church (albeit “just part time”) for about a year and never heard the name Witness Lee? Surely this is a typo. Lee’s name is everywhere you look. Local Church meetings are based on the spoken ministry of Witness Lee. The footnotes in the Recovery Version…did you think those were from John MacArthur? I think in a sincere, but misguided, attempt to give our readers the impression that Lee had nothing to do with your original visions and visitations, and Lee’s ministry simply confirmed them, you misspoke in a major way. Maybe you would care to take a mulligan on this one?" HI UntoHim, No typo, it is accurate, and that may have been because of the type of meetings I attended for that period. I mostly attended the table meeting and the prayer meeting and there were no ministry messages in those meetings. I also left the table meeting immediately and did not stick around for a second meeting if there was one (I do not remember one ever mentioned) as I had meeting responsibilities in the denomination I attended. There was no Recovery Version at that time. Apparently there were "loose leaf" life-studies floating around but no one ever mentioned them or handed one to me. I say apparently because after I came in to the Lord's Recovery, the ministry office offered to bind together anyone's loose leaf studies into a single volume (Hebrews, John, Matthew, etc. ). I didn't have those loose leafs but obviously since others did they were using them before I came in. Drake |
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06-25-2017 08:50 AM | ||||||||
UntoHim |
Re: The Unique Move of God My friend I have neither the time nor the heart to be badgering anybody. Sorry if you got that impression. If I sound sarcastic at times, it’s only because of my 40+ years of personal experience and close observation of the persons, places and things that are discussed here on our little popcorn stand. I’m naturally inclined to sarcasm…God is not through with me yet…as the bumper sticker says. Quote:
Quote:
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06-25-2017 08:47 AM | ||||||||
UntoHim |
Re: The Unique Move of God Local Church Movement. Different people use different acronyms. Sometimes it gets confusing to me, and I've been reading these forums for many years. I've thought about trying to encourage some conformity, but I pretty much gave up on that. - |
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06-25-2017 08:16 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God What does the acronym "LCM" stand for? |
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06-25-2017 07:59 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God So, to summarize: LCM methods are not designed to embrace true generality, since the LCM insists on too many proprietary details in belief and practice which map back to Witness Lee and his personal preferences. Therefore, the LCM is not interested in general unity among Christians, they are interested in a "unity" which conforms to their particular beliefs, practices, structure, view and leadership--that is, conformity. Therefore, the LCM is really only interested in all Christians joining them. Therefore, since the above is never going to come close to happening, the LCM is chasing a vain pursuit. Therefore, they content themselves with the belief that they are the only ones doing things right, and categorically ignore or discount everything God is doing outside their walls, which is the vast majority of what God is doing. They know this in their hearts, but cannot reconcile it with their "vision." However, rather than opening to God for more clarity, they simply stay the course because questioning Witness Lee is not an option. Therefore, they are living in denial. Unfortunately, this mindset not only hurts them, it potentially hurts everyone they come in contact with. Therefore, they should repent. |
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06-24-2017 06:26 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Thank you for sharing. There isn't anything above that I disagree with. The issue with me and the LCM has never been much about the general vision. It has always been about how that vision is interpreted and turned into attitudes and practices. This really comes into play in the "practical unity" part of your vision. It seems to me the LCM version of unity is set up in such a way so that only the LCM can fulfill it. So, ironically, their "unity" became a kind of sectarianism. This is proven by the fact that there are a lot of groups that meet as the church in the city but which have no association with the LSM. And in every case as far as I know the LCM churches disregard them and do not attempt to fellowship with them. The LCM has defined "names" and "locality" as the central determiners of whether a group observes proper unity. But the Bible never makes that clear. However, the Bible does make clear that overly insisting on one minister or ministry can and does result in sectarianism (1 Cor 3). Yet, the LCM acts oblivious to this, and thus attempts to enforce all the little details Witness Lee/LSM taught, which is the root of all the dysfunction the group has spread. There is nothing wrong with unity as a general concept. Where the LCM has gone wrong is to insist unity must be expressed according to specific proprietary details--which in fact is not unity but conformity. In the meantime, they discount all other expressions of unity as inadequate. I simply do not see how this will ever result in more unity or building, the very thing you claim to want. So you must be hoping everyone eventually joins the LCM. But that isn't going to happen. Sixty years of track record has made that clear. The reason people aren't joining the LCM is not because of the general vision you shared. It's because of the way that general vision has been lost and distorted in the translation into actual attitudes and practices. |
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06-23-2017 10:14 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But i am sensing some sarcasm and perhaps a taste of badgering? Under those circumstances I am not inclined to share something that is deeply personal and a treasure to me in my spiritual life. Vision is not a doctrine, rather, it is a visitation, at least it was to me. Still, I will share an abbreviated version of the vision that captured me and how it came about. It is personal and may hold no real interest to you or others. Starting here.... I held leadership roles in a denomination and had a life changing experience there. Then in His care and shepherding and arrangements He enlightenment me concerning the Church as the local expression of His Body and the need for the unity of the believers in a city. Then later, He showed me the position of the church universal seated with Christ in the heavenlies. I do not mean I only read it and decided it was right, I saw it as real as if I had looked at the moon. I further understood that it was the only way to defeat God's enemy. I was captured by this visitation/vision of the universal Body and the Body local on earth. Still had not heard the name Witness Lee. Then I started to attend some meetings of the local church but just part time. Yet, here I began to experience life and care and shepherding in the Body and I started to see the Body life could be experienced in a real and living way in my daily life. I then understood the meaning, significance, and profoundness of grace upon grace. For the better part of a year I met with the local churches part time as I was very engaged in the denomination i was a leader in. With one foot in each world I was able to compare firsthand the difference. Still had not heard the name Witness Lee. Then I was going to be in a certain city for personal reasons and the elder mentioned I might like to attend a conference being held at that time in that city. He said, Brother Witness Lee would be speaking. I said "who is that?" He said, a coworker of Watchman Nee. I knew of Watchman Nee. So at that conference I saw the Spirit poured out on the Body and the function of "each one has" that facilitated the building up. It became apparent to me that God chooses the weak, the imperfect, and the simple to accomplish the building of the Body. Old and young, rich and poor, university teachers and students, electricians and plumbers, different races, many people from all walks of human life came together and did what normally only pastors and teachers did. I also had a few minutes of fellowship with Brother Lee face to face and found him to be gracious, caring, and normal. That was the last piece of the mosaic of the vision of the Body of Christ. At that point I was "turned and burned" . You know the phrase well I am certain. That was over 40 years ago and the vision has kept me ever since. In summary, It was a 4 fold vision of the Body the Lord revealed to me in a variety of ways over a few years. First, through a minister I came to understand the Body is local and the need for unity in the Body in a city. Though a leader in a denomiation i knew there was something more. Second, the Body is universal and here I received a personal and intimate visitation from the Lord and from that saw the Body universal. Third, I experienced the Body Christ and care and shepherding in my daily life. Fourth, i saw the pouring out of the Spirit and realized the primary purpose was to bring in the function for building the Body and to defaet God's enemy. Only near the end of this last part did I met Brother Lee. A vision of the Body local, universal, personal, and functional. By the time I began to read and listen to Brother Lee's ministry i needed no convincing. It just affirmed the vision that Lord had already revealed to me. Thanks for listening. Drake |
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06-23-2017 06:02 PM | ||||||||
UntoHim |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I know you are busy and all....but I for one am EXTREMELY interested in this "vision" that you were blown away by "before I ever heard of Witness Lee". This is NOT a "gotctha question" (unless you turn it into one). Please do not deprive us of this most important vision. I would like to know something about this "vision" you speak of. Surely it is very related to "The Unique Move of God". The ball is now in your court my brother. You've never disappointed in the past...don't start now. - |
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06-23-2017 02:43 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
If I recall when I was in the LCM I thought God showed me a lot of things I never bothered to pray about. I recall just accepting everything without question, because questioning Witness Lee was sold as the root of all evil. Did I ever tell you about the LCM guy I once asked to pray for six weeks about whether his LCM views were accurate? Seems like a reasonable and harmless suggestion, right? How could that go wrong? Yep... you guessed it... he said he didn't need to pray. |
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06-23-2017 02:16 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
Sectarianism is not people meeting in multiple places and having multiple names. Sectarianism is some people saying that everyone should be like them and refusing to respect others' rights to believe and meet as they see fit as per Romans 12. Sectarianism is not people living in different houses and having different names. Sectarianism is any of those families saying they are the only valid family. I've never seen a time in my life when so many different kinds of Christians can come together and meet together and not make issues about secondary doctrines. That is the way I see the situation going more and more these days. And guess what? I see the hand of God in it too. Why can't you be happy about that? Quote:
The fact is, Drake, we are never going to see a situation where all or even a majority of Christians in cities come under one group of elders wielding the kind of control the LCM does. It just isn't going to happen. (And personally I don't think that is what God expects or even wants.) So what are you going to do? Continue to find fault with them? Continue to see the glass half-empty. I just don't see the point of that. It's making the good the enemy of the (in your opinion) best. And you hurt people by sending the message that if they aren't in the LCM they are somehow not right with God. You need to drop that. That's always been my point. |
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06-23-2017 12:41 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
How do I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the local church? I watched their behaviors, attitudes, teachings, and practices for the past 40 years. I have never seen such vicious, political rancor as that which was exhibited by leaders in Anaheim. They condemn others for exactly the same things they do. That's why you avoid all questions about your own sordid history, and keep your weapons aimed at others. |
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06-23-2017 11:28 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy) "Also you are the one who implied that people in denominations have a "sectarian spirit," But then when I said they generally don't, you said I could not know that. But how could you know? Because the same limitation would apply to you. How can you know there is a "sectarian spirit" if I can't know there isn't?" Igzy, First, I see no reason to engage in rock fetches. For instance, you want to make this about people as if that were the point. It is not and seldom is. You recast the arguments in terms of people and personalities and you also make it personal with me. I understand that my very presence on this forum annoys you but it is best to address my argument and refrain from suggesting I am lying if you want to discuss a topic and especially if you want to dive into a topic more thoroughly. However, as soon as you began crafting ad hominem arguments like "liar, liar, pants on fire" I lose interest pretty quickly. You may think that is avoiding the argument but my view is that is avoiding an irrelevant argument. Now, how can I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the church? Simple, open the phone book! You don't need a PHD for that either. And it is a fallacy of argumentation on your part because you cannot possibly know what the majority of christians are thinking. And I don't claim to know what the majority of christians are thinking either. I just look at the obvious ... thousands of denominations and surmise that a sectarian spirit must be operating in the church. Drake |
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06-23-2017 10:36 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
In the first place, the building of the Body is taught in churches today, it's just not taught in the terms you prefer. But the essence and reality of the idea is there. Churches teach community, fellowship, small groups, mutual support, praying together, serving together, all in the Spirit. So if they practice those things the Body is going to get built and I've seen it built that way. You don't need to have a PhD in Witness Lee's theology to have the building of the Body of Christ. That's like saying you need to have PhD in the inner life to experience it. And some of the most spiritual people ever never heard of most of the things Lee taught about the inner life. And in fact in my experience much of the things he taught both about life and building just get in the way, because they produce a mindset like yours which believes all these WL ducks need to be a row for life and building to happen, which is a prescription for mistaking following WL for actually having them, i.e. mistaking knowledge for reality. For my money his teaching hasn't produced that much building anyway. Seems to have built a fringe sect. I like the building I see elsewhere better, thanks very much. |
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06-23-2017 10:26 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Those in the Recovery claim to have so much from God -- unique spiritual blessings which they claim others do not possess. They boast of the proper church stand, the oneness of the body, and all the riches of the Word recovered by Nee and Lee. Yet, like Israel and Laodicea, they have become proud, blind, lukewarm, naked and arrogant. They sue and quarantine the prophets God sends to them. They remain a closed, insular, stagnant sect, much like the Exclusive Brethren they are modeled after, and are sheltered by concrete reinforced strongholds which neither God nor man can penetrate. |
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06-23-2017 10:08 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
(By the way, this probably why you guys can't grow your numbers much, because only a fringe of people are going to turn their lives over to a belief system which (1) requires so much of them and (2) can't stand up to scrutiny.) How do we arrive at the truth? I believe the truth must be able to hold up to some intellectual scrutiny. But as far as I can tell you are avoiding discussions you can't answer, or else mischaracterizing them to brush them aside. Take your above comment for example. Yes a denomination is a school of thought, but most denominations as far as I can tell are generalizing to the unity of the faith. People might be attracted to some doctrines, but most people I talk to go to churches where they feel they get the Lord's blessing and presence. The school of thought is secondary. So your response was either disingenuous or befuddled because you brushed aside my actual point with an irrelevancy. Also you are the one who implied that people in denominations have a "sectarian spirit," But then when I said they generally don't, you said I could not know that. But how could you know? Because the same limitation would apply to you. How can you know there is a "sectarian spirit" if I can't know there isn't? (Even so, I'm pretty sure my knowledge of actual state of Christianity is more accurate than yours, because everything I've experienced and seen the LCM view is quite biased and ignorant. ) So yes, you need to defend your vision. But you also need to be honest enough with yourself to see the holes in you vision. And for my money I don't see you doing that. I see weak arguments based on fuzzy premises. I see contradictions. I even see hypocrisies. For one I see the LCM as much or more sectarian that most. Just because you stand on the "ground" and claim to be for "oneness" doesn't put you in the clear. The Pharisees stood on Moses and the Law, but we know what Jesus thought of them. You might be okay according to the letter of your law, but certainly not according the spirit. The Lord of the Sabbath can see through that kind of stuff. I'm seeking truth. But I'm not buying your version unless you can do better. You might begin by being more honest about the holes in your argument and the questionable history of your movement. |
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06-23-2017 08:40 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
To be precise, I said the way of the Lords Recovery has a better chance of being able to build the Body of Christ......but there is no guarantee. We just need to be faithful to what the Lord has shown us. By analogy, the 6M Jews who became members of the nation of Israel, living in the good land, building homes, keeping rifles handy, growing crops, having babies, have a much better chance of accomplishing the mission of the Israel than 17M Jews living in New York or other places. That does not mean that the 6M Jews are better than other Jews. That of course is a modern day account of what happened in the Old Testament. History repeats itself. Drake |
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06-23-2017 07:36 AM | ||||||||
Nell |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And there's what Jesus said! In Matt. 16:18 he said "I will build my church." Really? Does he really mean that? Or, does he needs help? Is he up to the task? After all, he is GOD. Do you think Jesus secretly uses the "LSM Teaching and Practice Administrators Guide to Church Building"? And what do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 18:6 when he said "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." I've noticed that "obedience" is a big thing in the Bible. Do you think it would help if we obeyed God rather than men with millstones around their necks? I know you know the answers to my questions. Nell |
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06-23-2017 07:28 AM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God WL said they do not have and you said they can't have the reality of the Body of Christ, and by saying so, implied the believers in the Lord's Recovery can. Doesn't that mean believers in Lord's Recovery are better? |
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06-23-2017 07:21 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Has nothing to do with " better than believers". |
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06-23-2017 06:45 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Since WL has passed on, TLR now has a few Blended MOTA's (BP, RK, MC, etc.) sitting in their nice LaPalma offices deciding who and what is good for the "building up." Then they plot their perfect "body." They decide a number of the internal organs, bones, muscles, brain parts, and extremities in the body of Christ in the GLA are no longer necessary. They hold a public Kangaroo Court in Whistler to plan out their "surgeries." They publish lengthy and extensive articles in "approved" medical journals, like afaithfulworddotcom. They send in numerous legal operatives from DCP into the "Recovery" room to patch up the remaining pieces of their "body," filing lawsuits to recoup their exorbitant expenses. What's left is kept on the life support system of HWFMRs. Then a "finger" from the GLA comes to your "Feast" in Anaheim, and the crowd erupts with joy over the one finger who survived your mutilations. Next you move on to Brazil for more "surgery." What did Apostle Paul say? "Beware of the dogs, Beware of the evil workers, Beware of the concision." |
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06-23-2017 05:51 AM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-23-2017 05:29 AM | ||||||||
UntoHim |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-23-2017 05:28 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God A little brother)"Ch 13, The Practice of the Church Life according to the God-ordained Way: "Although those in Christianity preach Christ and teach people concerning Christ, they do so in a very shallow way. They have the term church, but they do not have the reality of the Body of Christ. " And yet it is true. Let's examine the largest denomination in the USA, the American Baptist Church. We all would agree that they teach the Lordship of Christ and eternal salvation through His work on the cross. They also follow His command to baptize converts. Billy Graham, clearly a gift to the Body, an Evangelist, is the best representation of this group. I was "raised" Baptist and my grandfather was an ordained Baptist minister. Most of my family are of this persuasion and many of them are some of the best people you will ever meet anywhere. They love God, given to hospitality, generous, and they hold the conviction of their beliefs in the Bible. (There are a few rascals but we will leave that discussion another time). They also host the the best pot lucks on the planet. But concerning Christ, where will you find the teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ? Let's give credit where credit is due. They teach Christ the Head, His Lordship, His salvation yet, they do not teach Christ the Body, its building up, nor are they organized to allow the members of the Body to function in mutual building. Therefore, how can they have the reality of the Body of Christ? In this aspect, they are shallow in their teaching of Christ. Specifically, Christ the Body. That was the context of the reference you cited. (You should have explained that when you quoted it to be accurate in your critique.) Drake |
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06-23-2017 05:15 AM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-22-2017 11:54 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And whatever your conviction is, I don't think you should deny the plain fact that LC members do often criticize Christianity to contrast the excellence of the Lords Recovery. In fact, most of them only had very limited fellowship with other Christians. And you will see the double standard here because they seldom criticize saints with similar issues in the local churches. I don't accuse most of the members for doing this because they are just following the general atmosphere of the church. But I do blame the leaders for tolerating if not creating this. Quote:
I can't keep track of how many times he criticized the "shallowness" of Christianity. So I just did a quick search on the Internet to find the following quote. Ch 13, The Practice of the Church Life according to the God-ordained Way: "Although those in Christianity preach Christ and teach people concerning Christ, they do so in a very shallow way. They have the term church, but they do not have the reality of the Body of Christ. " Quote:
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06-22-2017 10:02 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Is that what you are saying, "a little brother"? Quote:
Both are inaccurate. First, no brother or sister that I have ever met in the Lords Recovery thinks they are better than believers not in the Lords Recovery. I certainly don't. I can't think of a single one out of thousands. On the contrary, I have known and know some stellar christians outside of the Lord Recovery. I think some in this forum are probably like that too. Secondly, the way is a matter of the truth. There are many ways and we need to distinguish them. For instance, the Lord said there is a way of destruction compared to a narrow way. Paul said he showed us a more excellent way. Therefore, we need to assess our way. If we feel before the Lord that our way is right we should not shy away from it by falsely and foolishly embracing every way. That is why I said to follow your conviction before the Lord, it's not about pride, it's about conviction of belief. It is not falsehood to present the scriptural justification for your conviction of the way. If you have no conviction about the way then you should pray earnestly to find it. If you think every way is fine then... well, got nothing for you. Quote:
Drake |
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06-22-2017 09:53 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-22-2017 09:28 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
https://www.beknownforsomething.com/...-a-restaurant/ http://www.kathyhoward.org/the-churc...ll-food-court/ It's definitely how denominational people view the church - the church is a mall food court where you can choose what you want to eat. If denominations are the food court I guess that makes the Recovery "fine dining". |
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06-22-2017 09:23 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I was not discusssing whether those in the local churches believe that is a better way (of course they do). I was discussing their wrong way of justifying their "betterness" by false testimony. I believe God's people don't follow the Lord only to enjoy healthy and nourishing food. They are also commissioned to serve Him even though the situation can be difficult. |
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06-22-2017 08:53 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
What we were discussing is whether those in the local churches believe that is a better way. Of course they do. If they did not believe in their mission they should go before the Lord and pursue one that they believe in and/or where the food is healthy and nourishing. Drake |
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06-22-2017 08:24 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Don't understand why you talked about restaurant. Is this how you view the church? |
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06-22-2017 08:09 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You bring up an interesting misunderstanding. I was blown away by this vision before I ever heard of Witness Lee. He didn't need to convince me. Drake |
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06-22-2017 08:02 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
Drake |
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06-22-2017 07:57 PM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Just sharing a personal testimony. I'm no Witness Lee, I don't need to convince you that my way is the one and only truth. Drake. Pray. |
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06-22-2017 07:48 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You've never. Ok. You've convinced me. Thanks Drake |
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06-22-2017 07:33 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This is the real situation that many members of this forum have pointed out but somehow not all LC members are willing to accept and reflect. Quote:
I don't know about others but in my locality, almost every meeting is conducted around WL's messages - prophesying meetings, home meetings, morning revivals, fellowship meetings between serving ones, and even prayer meetings. |
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06-22-2017 07:27 PM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God I agree with Igzy. I've been fortunate to fellowship with Christians across over a dozen countries in atleast as many "denominations". I've never seen such division until being a part of the LSM. I share this as a personal testimony to the work of Christ and His Church, and to warn others of the LSM and their division. |
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06-22-2017 07:23 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
LSM, more than any denomination, is a school of thought, espoused not just by "clergy," but be every active member. Obviously when He returns, there will be no more denominations. You say this as if it is the ultimate judgment on these denominations, but neither will there be meeting halls, publishers of Lee's books, petty lawsuits, and a whole host of items specific to TLR. So why even mention it? Your denominational paradigm is a century old, tracing back to Nee's childhood. Christianity in the 21st century has dramatically changed. Our battles as Christians have dramatically changed. Why not discard all of your exclusive baggage and focus on bringing the lost into the Light? Why does your mission statement include the condemnation of all Christianity? The time is coming soon when "us vs. them" is not "LSM vs. Christianity" but God's children vs. the armies of the beast. Do you think your training badge will help you then? Will you one day refuse a drink of water from a "degraded" brother who does not attend your "feasts?" Brother Drake, I was raised Catholic and lived in unsaved darkness in the world, then saved dynamically outside the LC, then served 3 decades within the LC's, and now I'm meeting outside the LC's. Every time you (or another LC insider) mention how the things of Christianity will fare at the judgment seat of Christ, I just shake my head. You don't get it. You got just as much baggage or more to get freed from. |
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06-22-2017 06:21 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Terry "Prophesying according to Holy Word for Morning Revival and other ministry publications has nullified the body's function. What if you get light from reading Proverbs or James and have something to share? Or a nugget from a completely unrelated Christian writer such as Charles Spurgeon or RC Sproul?" Oh, that's easy. You share outside of the prophesying meeting. That is what I do. I've seen the prophesying meeting happen both ways. Before HWMR and after HWMR. It is much better after. Before was a free for all. After it became more edifying because we had focus and the Lord could speak in layers. As the sharing progresses on the same topic He speaks past the obvious to the personal. More depth and more light. Even the template encourages succinct sharing allowing more time for many to share. Far from nullifying the function of the Body the HWMR facilitates it. Drake |
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06-22-2017 06:04 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy "Most Christians these days are not sectarian. They don't care about aligning themselves with some school of thought. They just want to be able to meet with people who care about Jesus. That's a fact. " Hi Igzy, Denominations are a school of thought and you don't speak for most christians. The fact is, you couldn't possibly know that most Christians are not sectarian given they are divided into thousands of sects and apparently have not discarded them. Yet, I am not obsessed about that. If, for instance, a person holds conviction of belief about baptism and even refuses to fellowship with others because of it then there is really no issue from my side. The Lord does not force people in the age of grace. When He returns and establishes righteousness there will be no denominations. Before the Lord we are responsible for what He has shown us. We share that with others, we try to persuade, and with unbelievers we may plead. In the end, all will be settled according to the One who judges righteously. Drake |
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06-22-2017 05:17 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God A type of Christ. |
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06-22-2017 04:07 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Doesn't that make Elijah the "Prophet of the Age"? |
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06-22-2017 03:49 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. I think all of us have “like passions with Elijah”. We would like to pray that God’s fire would fall from heaven, all of God’s people would fall on their face and say “He is God” and all the false prophets would be defeated. But that is not the reference that James gives. He talks about Elijah praying that it wouldn’t rain. Anyone can pray that “it doesn’t rain today” and no one would see that as miraculous. You could do it for a week and no one is going to care. Even if you did it for a month people would basically shrug. This indicates how Elijah was long-suffering, patient, and endured for three years and six months. Now imagine you are in the grip of a terrible drought, it hasn’t rained for two years. If someone knew you were praying for it not to rain they would hate you. This prayer would make Elijah despised. In our minds if someone is sick we want to walk in, lay hands on them, say “be healed in Jesus name” and then they stand up and take up their bed. But this is a very different image of “healing the sick” -- three and half years praying that it not rain. Also, why would praying that it not rain “heal the sick”? If we look at the context of Elijah’s prayer we see a very interesting story. Israel was infected with Jezebel, a heathen queen. Her rule over Israel was the sickness. When Elijah prayed for fire to fall and the prophets of Baal were killed it didn’t cure Israel of Jezebel’s reign, instead she sent the army looking for Elijah. Rather it was a terrible drought for 3 1/2 years that loosened her grip on the country. At that point everyone in the entire country wants it to rain, so when Elijah demonstrates that only God has the power it showed that God has the power of life, and that this life is what really rules over Israel. This is where you learn that Elijah is the true elder and Jezebel is an evil imposter. James is talking about the church being infected with a false prophet. In typology the prophets of Baal were involved in money. The Lord’s house is supposed to be a house of prayer and they turn it into a den of thieves. They make merchandise of the saints. James had been involved with the Judaizers, false prophets who had infected the house of God. The cure is not to pray for fire to fall from heaven, but rather that the life giving rain would be withheld by God from these ones. Elijah had to pray for three and a half years the prayer of faith for Israel to see this. His prayer of faith saved Israel and Israel was raised up. So when James says to “pray for one another, that ye may be healed” this is the context. Someone prayed for him and he was healed. His epistle is the game plan for dealing with a cult, heresy, or any error among the church. If this is not your life then you are not "elder material". |
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06-22-2017 12:00 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
It seems one basis is loyalty to Living Stream Ministry. You could be prone to be quick-tempered or married multiple times and that's okay. Truth or myth, one's families financial contribution to Living Stream could be a contributing factor also. Point is loyalty bears more weight than ones character and disposition. I would agree ZNP. Prophesying according to Holy Word for Morning Revival and other ministry publications has nullified the body's function. What if you get light from reading Proverbs or James and have something to share? Or a nugget from a completely unrelated Christian writer such as Charles Spurgeon or RC Sproul? The matter about the table is a subtle one. There's no words, but the contradicting actions illustrate division. Taking the table is no longer a matter of 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, but rather who are you taking the table with. If it's a denomination or a non-denominational church, abstaining from taking the table is the accepted practice. If it's another LSM-receiving local church you're visiting, it's okay to take the table. |
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06-21-2017 06:55 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
When you refer to Watchman Nee as "The Minister of the Age" you have elevated him. Why is he the MOTA? Because he discovered the "ground of the church". The basis for elevating WN is the doctrine of the ground of the church. This elevation separates God's people. That also is true. The LRC has held to their opinion and preference, they have elevated WN and WL due to this preference, and as a result they have set up a high place. |
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06-21-2017 05:25 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Most Christians these days are not sectarian. They don't care about aligning themselves with some school of thought. They just want to be able to meet with people who care about Jesus. That's a fact. And please don't continue with this self-serving drivel about names and ground and all that BS. Oneness is about ATTITUDE. It's about how you look at other BROTHERS and SISTERS and how you do not elevate DOCTRINES above your RELATIONSHIPS with them. Oneness is not about having a gotcha doctrine like locality. It's about how you really think about your brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm not stupid, Drake. You aren't either. But please dispense with the attitude that you are more for oneness because you are in the LCM. You aren't. And I'm not more for oneness because I'm not in the LCM. The LCM is just another organization. Oneness is about what's between me and you and us and everyone else. Get it? |
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06-21-2017 02:03 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
the blood ,life and light are necessary for oneness. Lee talks about the cycle of life light onessness in the book titled the genuine ground oneness. Nothing about names on meeting halls. |
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06-21-2017 02:03 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
So I wonder if Drake agrees with this? Are the elders selected by Witness Lee in the church in Houston the only genuine elders in Houston? Witness Lee was often critical of the organized system of Christianity, saying that it had deviated from the biblical revelation. He identified three inherent deficiencies in this system: There are many substitutes for the living person of Christ; The clergy/laity system nullifies the proper function of the believers; and The divided state of the denominational/free group system is contrary to biblical injunctions to keep the oneness of the Body of Christ. I feel that these criticisms of Witness Lee towards others is equally applicable to him. 1. Substitutes for the living person of Christ. -- MOTA and Ground of the Church are two examples. Jesus is the minister of the age. To say that Watchman Nee or Witness Lee is equals a substitute for the Living person of Christ. Likewise it is the living person of Christ that is the bond of peace that keeps the oneness, not WL's doctrine of the ground of the church. 2. Nullification of the proper function of the believers. -- We watched that as "living testimonies" were converted into parroting footnotes and WL's ministry. 3. The divided state of denominational system is never so clear as in the Lord's Recovery Church. It is either stated plainly or else implied that taking the Lord's table in any other Christian fellowship is akin to a sin that could kill you. |
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06-21-2017 11:50 AM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-21-2017 11:37 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God This wikipedia article "Local Church Controversies" delineates the LC positions ... Quote:
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06-21-2017 05:29 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I don't think I have ever been in fellowship with Christians where everyone agreed with everyone or where everyone fully comprehended the nuances and scriptural basis for the teachings. What makes the LRC different from many other meetings is that any member can stand up and speak. We have all been in meetings where someone spoke something that was off the wall. So then where do you draw the line? The other issue I have with this is that most Christians that I have met do not make oneness a big issue like it is in the LRC. Redemption, forgiveness, salvation, these are generally the major topics that they focus on. So then, is it a positive thing that those in the LRC focus on the oneness of the Body? I think we all have to agree it is, otherwise why are you even discussing this on this thread? Clearly if you are on this thread you think the oneness is a big issue. What I consider are the big issues with this teaching -- 1. It denies the Lord who bought us with His blood. Any suggestion that the name of your meeting hall is a factor in the oneness is a denial of the work that Jesus did on the cross. That blood is the real "ground of oneness". and 2. I see this doctrine as a way to create a monopoly, claim that you are the MOTA, and make merchandise of the saints. Regardless of how Dr a Ke understands this doctrine, the facts are clear. It is the basis for the claim that WN was the MOTA. It is the basis for saying WL took the mantle from WN. And, it is the basis for creating the LRC sect and giving WL a monopoly which he in turned used to make merchandise of the saints. |
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06-21-2017 02:59 AM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Maybe Drake is not from the US? I haven't interacted with many international LSM members. Unfortunately we will never know because he isn't interested in sharing his locality. As I've said before, I understand his position and sympathize with him on this. A spirit of fear and confusion abound in the LSM. |
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06-20-2017 08:37 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I heard the opposite of what you said on a regular basis. I can't know what exact views and teachings everyone holds within. I only go by what they say. |
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06-20-2017 08:27 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And looking from another point of view, why use such matters here to condemn the entire body of Christ, when LSM and the LC's should be doubly condemned for all of their divisive practices. You find splinters when timbers stick out of your eyesockets. |
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06-20-2017 07:19 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Yet, please stop trying to justify the sectarian spirit operating in the church today causing each denomination to favor people in their own clique. I think if you called a spade a spade we'd find out just how much we agree on many things. Drake |
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06-20-2017 05:47 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-20-2017 05:32 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But if they did, so what? Why shouldn't every christian have the realization that they are the church in the city where they live and in so doing drop the things that divide them and declare to the world and the principalities and powers that they choose the oneness found only in Christ....... why not? That is a good thing to Amen. Drake |
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06-20-2017 05:22 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
At the very least many are likely thinking, "And the people who don't meet with us aren't experiencing being the church in the city." Anytime I think about being the church in the city when I'm with other believers, or for that matter when I'm by myself, I experience being the church in the city. But again you don't have to meet as the church in the city to be part of the church in the city, anymore than a woman named Suzie has to call herself Mrs. Davis to be be Mrs. Davis. She can be Mrs. Davis and she can be Suzie, too. Neither precludes the other, and the same holds for Brookhollow Community Church. |
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06-20-2017 05:19 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
"To the Seven Churches in Asia which are identified with cities. And, oh, by the way for those of you who can't read between the lines: There should only be one organized church per city under one group of elders who all follow the minister of the age." That is more explicit. But the Lord didn't get that explicit. With good reason. |
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06-20-2017 04:14 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy, "But you can say "we are meeting as the Church in the city." That I think is okay. At least it's okay by me. But in no place does the Bible tell us that we must meet as the Church in the city nor that we cannot meet in any other way." Igzy, I agree. When I am asked by anybody who do I meet with I always say we don't have a name we simply meet as the church in that place. I have done that for four decades. For the very reason you stated because our view is that every believer is a member of the church in a particular city. I do not hold the view that only those in the Lord's recovery make up the church in a particular city. I don't know of anybody who holds that view . However I also understand that not all Christians have my view. I don't objective to that either. They are still members of the local church in that city whether they meet on that basis or not. Drake |
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06-20-2017 04:02 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy) "Explicitly?" If the Lord wanted to be "explicit" he would have explicitly commanded one church per city. If the oneness of the believers in a city on the ground of locality was so important to the Lord then why didn't he just say there should be one church in each city in plain English/Aramaic/Greek? " Igzy, In the New Testament age it is the Spirit that speaks to the churches. In Revelation 2 & 3 it is the Spirit speaking to the churches. Which churches? The seven churches that are identified in each city. Not thousands of churches in seven cities. Not the universal church but rather seven churches in seven cities. "The" church in a mentioned city is a definite article. It does not get any more explicit than that in any language. Drake |
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06-20-2017 02:13 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God When a group like "Brookhollow Community Church" calls itself "Brookhollow Community Church," it is not saying that it is dividing itself from other Christians, neither is it saying that all of God's work in the city flows through them and them alone. What it is saying is that the group, though part of the Church universal, is not the whole Church universal--and though part of the Church in the city, is not the whole Church in the city. In other words, the group is making no claims of superiority nor inferiority nor preclusion over the rest of the Church. It is simply saying what it is--a part of the Church. But when a group calls itself the Church in the city, but does not mean that "itself" includes all other Christians in the city, it is actually not calling itself what it is, because no subset of the Church in the city can say it is the Church in the city. It can only say it is part of the Church in the city. In other words whenever you say "we are the church in <city>" and do not by "we" mean all Christians in the city, you are by definition expressing an exclusive attitude. In fact, you are expressing a falsehood. But you can say "we are meeting as the Church in the city." That I think is okay. At least it's okay by me. But in no place does the Bible tell us that we must meet as the Church in the city nor that we cannot meet in any other way. |
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06-20-2017 11:31 AM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I am reminded of an example. A brother from the Church in Moses Lake (parted fellowship with LSM in 1986) sought to visit the Church in Euphrata, but was promptly shown the door. What is the issue? By all appearances it's fellowship according to a ministry. This must be what is implied when it's said to be meeting on the ground of oneness. |
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06-20-2017 11:16 AM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This doctrine is just one example of the "two faced aspect" of many of the LSM doctrine. It is what keeps people from seeing the truth. There is the doctrine as stated by Witness Lee (and ONLY Witness Lee) - you can read it for yourself, I have posted the "ground of oneness" link on this site before. THEN, you can hear the watered down version or the rebuttal version from members of the LSM. This second version is more palatable until you continue to seek answers, ask questions, and search scripture. I believe this is one of the reasons there is a spirit of confusion among LSM members. Paul never makes the charge of Witness Lee's version of "Ground of Oneness". I don't think that can be disputed. I guess someone could say that it is implied, but that would be a theory that could not be backed-up by scripture. What Paul DID make the charge of was "charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith". I love my brothers and sisters in the LSM and feel for them deeply. I am saddened by much of what they are subject to with the LSM. |
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06-20-2017 09:52 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Drake, "Explicitly?" If the Lord wanted to be "explicit" he would have explicitly commanded one church per city. If the oneness of the believers in a city on the ground of locality was so important to the Lord then why didn't he just say there should be one church in each city in plain English/Aramaic/Greek? Obviously the Lord cares a lot about oneness. But he stopped short of commanding one church per city. I believe he did that because he knew that believers insisting on it would be more damaging than other alternatives. Proof? Just look at the history of the LCM. The fact is your calling yourself "the church in <city>" in any sense that does not include all the believers in the city is exclusive. And we all know when LCMers talk about "the church in <city>" they are usually just talking about their little group, and almost never talking about everyone in the city, except when it suits them. The unavoidable implication, no matter how much you deny it, is that others are not the church in <city>. My pastor sometimes refers to "the church in Austin." When he does it he is always talking about all the believers in Austin, never about a subset of the believers. He knows what "the church in Austin" really means. The "church in <city>" was never used in the Bible to refer to a subset of believers in a city. So whenever you use the term in that sense you misuse it. And that's probably the way you mostly use it. Correct? Here's another point to ponder. There is no case in the Bible where a group of believers refer to themselves as "the church in <city>." It is always an outside reference, either by the Lord or an apostle. So we certainly cannot determine from this that we are required to refer to ourselves as "the church in <city>." (I could say the Lord in order to make a point "explicitly" left out any self-references to "the church in <city>" by any groups. But I won't go there if you won't anymore either. ) So instead of calling yourselves "the church in <city>" perhaps you should call yourselves "a group of believers meeting as the church in <city>". This would be more accurate, humble, gracious and would not carry the unavoidable meaning that you are something others are not. The nation of Israel analogy does not work here, because a church and a political nation are very different things, and it is the differences that make such an argument specious. The nation of Israel is a definite definable thing. The church, even a local church is less definable. Further the nation of Israel does not stop being it even if it calls itself something else. A longstanding nickname for the United States was "Columbia." But it was still the good ol' USA. |
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06-20-2017 08:06 AM | ||||||||
UntoHim |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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So, if "it is irrelevant whether Witness Lee's name is even mentioned or the LSM materials are used", then why have longtime Local Church brothers, and even whole churches been excommunicated over the person and work of Witness Lee? In fact, the last 50-60 years of the LC movement has been so heavily scarred by vicious infighting and betrayal, so as to be unrecognizable to anyone who would read Watchman Nee, or even the earliest ministry of Lee. Actually, there has been quite a bit of meaningful dialogue, from both sides of the aisle as far as I can see. But to address the "practicality of the church" or "the ground of the church" or any related issues, without addressing the person (authority) and work (ministry) of Witness Lee, I'm afraid that meaningful dialogue will eventually digress to something much less meaningful, and even less profitable to all concerned. - |
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06-20-2017 04:46 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God So then, it seems to me the burden that Jesus had was that we could keep this oneness, and the burden Paul had was that we could keep this oneness. I don't see John having a different burden in Rev 2&3. Jesus was Lord and was speaking to all of his believers in each city. The word was for all of them. (In 1Corinthians we learn that christians were already grouping themselves by claiming they are of Peter, Paul, Apollos, Christ, etc. It is reasonable to think this included the cities referred to Revelation, yet the way it was written it was written to all of them regardless of which apostle they preferred). If you were to fast forward to the year 2017 and John was writing to all the believers in Houston would he address the letter to a small percentage of them meeting on Windswept lane? It seems to me the lesson from Revelation is not that "the church in Houston" is the proper name, but rather the burden to include all the believers is the burden. If the name points to the fact that this group is very concerned with the Lord's burden in Jn 17, Paul's burden in Eph 4 and is aligned with Rev 2&3 that suggests to me they would completely deemphasize their name and focus instead on what unites them with all the christians in their city, the name of Jesus. However, this doctrine on "the ground of oneness" has been used instead to emphasize the importance of not taking a name, which ironically has emphasized that their formula for a generic name is the one true name. For example, look at Evangelical's posts. His understanding of this doctrine demonstrates the apparent two faced aspect of this doctrine. When confronted with the reality that emphasizing any name other than Jesus is sectarian and divisive those who "stand on this ground" will agree and say that is what they teach. Yet when listening to those who have been discipled with this teaching their understanding is that the name determines if your standing is right or wrong, and they aren't talking about the name of Jesus. They will even go so far as to imply the name of Jesus is also divisive. |
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06-20-2017 04:15 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God ZNP "I do not see anything in either of these sections that suggests there is any other name by which we would keep the oneness." ZNP, I don't either. I believe all of this discussion about The church in such and such place "as a name" is a more recent artifact in church history. Specifically, because of the proliferation of the denominations in the last few hundred years. In the first century Christians just knew they were members of the church in a certain place. Paul's letters and revelation chapters 2 and 3 show clearly this was a basic assumption. Therefore, your explanation of the name would have been well understood. Fast forward to the year 2017 . The basic assumption of the oneness of the believers in a certain place has been clouded over with a departure from that most basic understanding concerning the oneness of the believers that you articulated. Anticipating the church in degradation on this matter, I believe the Lord explicitly listed the names of the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 as the church in a city. And also elsewhere. So though every believer in a place is a member of the church in that place, it is necessary to articulate the ground of Oneness in the name of Jesus. Not to divide, but to unite.That is something that should be understood but in reality it is not. As you said it's not a matter of thinking that we are better. Rather, it is a matter of being proper and according to the revelation of the practical oneness in the scripture. The Jews who live as the nation of Israel are not necessarily better than Jews who live in New York City. However, as to fulfilling the purpose of the nation of Israel and all that that implies the Jews in the land are practically fulfilling that mission. Yet, by distinguishing themselves as a member of the nation of Israel they are not excluding any of the other 17 million Jews who could take that position themselves. And who can fault the Jews who live as the nation of Israel from longing for and hoping that those 17 million Jews who live elsewhere will someday join them to accomplish the mission of the nation of Israel? Drake |
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06-19-2017 08:07 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God ZNP "What he said was that if you are a Jew and you move to Israel, what is wrong with naming your country Israel? You are taking a stand as Israel, on the proper ground of Israel, why not call yourself Israel?" Yes ZNP, you said that more succinctly than I did. I'll address the points of your post 484 in a separate note. Drake |
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06-19-2017 07:47 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I have no objection with disagreement..... even vigorous disagreement. Disagreement is not an issue. Dialogue became meaningless when you misrepresented my position. Drake |
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06-19-2017 07:39 PM | ||||||||
zeek |
Re: The Unique Move of God Ohio---Great factoid. I notice this post was ignored by EVERYBODY. Ouch! What's your source? |
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06-19-2017 06:37 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This is our stand. The reason WL's teaching resonated with ones like Dr aKe is because not all Christians make this stand. There is one name that does make us one, but it isn't our name, it is the name of Jesus. He is the rock that we are standing on. He is the ground of oneness. |
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06-19-2017 06:32 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Again I don't think the LSM "stand" is about putting them in better position to be one with all believers. That's the line but that's not the real reason. The real reason is to make themselves the place to be, because the fruit of it is manifestly not oneness but exclusivity. Idealists like Drake buy that line because they have good but naive hearts. The LCM takes advantage of people like them. I'm sure Lenin made good use of the idealists that followed him. But he had little in common with them. He just used them to empower himself. |
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06-19-2017 03:18 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This is like we wouldn't say "part of my family". If we have a large extended family that we only see once every 20 years or even not at all.. are we going to call our immediate family in our house "part of my family" just because we have a much larger family we never visit? Of course not. We will use the identifiers "my family" whether it is 3 members, 10 members, 100 members. Whether it is in one city or many cities, or over the whole world. For example, if I go travelling with a wife and 1 child, and leave two older children at home, I am going to call my wife and child "my family". I am not going to call them "part of my family". So I think because we are all in the one family it is okay to say we are the family, not just "part of the family". This is why we are not smaller, in fact. Quote:
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In the New Testament times, they had both a genuine relationship with Christ, and a practical church administration in each city. It was neither merely an organized religion with a church administration as per Roman Catholicism, neither was it merely a group of believers with a relationship with Christ, and no administration or structure. |
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06-19-2017 11:58 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
To be fair to many in the LRC they don't use terms like "better" but rather "proper" or "normal". The NY analogy doesn't work because no one calls themselves "the church in NY". But if you are in Houston, you meet with Christians as the church, and you need a name so that you can have an address, a phone number, be incorporated, etc. In that case, why shouldn't you call yourself the church in Houston? You are arguing about the name not putting you in better stead with God. But, if you name yourself the "Roman Catholic Church" it is certainly significant and will affiliate you with certain people, groups and Christians. It will denominate you from others. So then the question is not about putting yourself in better stead with God but rather putting yourself in a better position to be one with all believers. If you agree that a name like "Roman Catholic Church" puts you in a worse position to be one with all believers then certainly there is at least one name that puts you in a better position. |
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06-19-2017 11:14 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The issue is not whether 100 people can "stand as the church in New York." The issue is those people's claim that doing so puts them in better stead with God than those who don't. The nation of Israel argument sounds good until you realize that it doesn't map to any reality the Bible tells us to observe. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to meet as the church in the city nor to "stand" as the church in the city nor to compare either to the nation of Israel--let alone inform us that doing any of those things will put us in better stead with God. So arguing about it is like arguing about things in the Star Wars universe. E.g.: Can an Acklay defeat a Gorog? It only matters if the Star Wars universe is real enough to you for it to matter. But it has no connection to actual reality except in the way in borrows from reality to create a fictional one. That's all the nation of Israel argument does. The church in the city according to the LCM is a fictional reality. I'm sure fans of Gorogs have very logical arguments in defense of believing Gorogs can defeat Acklays. But in actual fact there are no Gorogs and there are no Acklays and the point is moot. |
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06-19-2017 05:49 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Drake, the fact that I disagree with you does not mean the dialogue is not meaningful. Sorry. |
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06-19-2017 05:37 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Let's engage in a meaningful dialogue based on the Truth in the Scripture. You can quote WL or WN if you like, don't care as long as we are discussing the truth in the scripture. I will begin with your analogy of Israel. It seems based on this analogy that there is no "Kingdom of Israel" without people willing to stand on this ground. That seems to me to make this a very important issue for the Church, which is the Kingdom. Therefore it seems to me the NT should be very explicit about this truth. When I ask myself, what does the scripture say about such an incredibly important doctrine as "the ground of oneness" Ephesians 4 and John 17 are the first two references that immediately come to mind. 4 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. I think this portion clearly foresees that oneness will require lowliness, meekness and long-suffering. That to me suggests we will have to be one with all sorts of believers with different opinions, practices and concepts. But the bond that holds us together is the peace that Jesus wrought on the cross. A name we call our group is not a bond that is going to hold all these different believers together. Paul states it as a fact that there is one body, one spirit and one hope of our calling. What we call our fellowship doesn't change any of that. I have a hope of a coming kingdom and calling myself the "super spiritual vanguard of the Christian elite warriors" doesn't in any way change this one hope. (My point is not to mock the LRC but rather to point out how every single little Christian group generally gives them-self some positive name). Again, there is one Lord for every Christian regardless of the name of their group, one faith, and one baptism. We are not immersing believers into the name of our group but into the person and work of the Triune God. Likewise we are all one because there is one God and Father who is above all, over all and in you all. I believe it is sovereign of God that a group like the LRC takes the stand they do because it causes us to examine this truth of the "ground of oneness". But I also believe it is sovereign that there are many other fellowships of Christians. WL used to compare his ministry to graduate school. But I remember a book that came out years ago saying that everything important this person ever learned they learned in kindergarten. Graduate school is necessary, and perhaps WL is right to compare his "training day" to graduate school. By comparison some Christian gatherings are kindergarten. But God is sovereign and in the grand scheme of things Kindergarten is just as important and impactful on the population as graduate school. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. It seems to me that the two most important things that Jesus is giving us to keep the oneness is the name of the Triune God and His word, which is truth. I do not see anything in either of these sections that suggests there is any other name by which we would keep the oneness. |
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06-19-2017 05:25 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You say you were a contemporary of Igzy and might have broken bread with him, therefore we are contemporaries as well and it is highly likely that we also broke bread together. When you read UntoHim's testimonies (he was from Orange county) it is quite clear that a local church that close to Anaheim had a different view of WL than one further away like Houston. Ultimately I have concluded that the Local Churches were strongly influenced by the elders in that locality and that made a big difference. I was influenced by Ray G and Benson P. That apparently is a big difference from Austin and also from some of the Orange County locales. |
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06-19-2017 05:04 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God No. Either you are unable or unwilling to engage in a meaningful dialogue. |
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06-19-2017 03:12 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-19-2017 03:02 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God I am. That is just what you said. |
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06-18-2017 03:44 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I don't really understand your point that we cannot call ourselves the church in London just because everyone else is the church in London as well. Then we end up with a situation where no one calls themselves the "church in London", and then the church does not exist practically. Quote:
On a Sunday, how does one know where to attend a church which is "all around me"? If such is the case, how can we apply the instructions of the bible to "tell it to the church" . Matt 18:17. There has to be some authority structure, which we know at the time was a plurality of elders appointed by the apostles. It does not mean we can just tell our Christian friend or neighbor about our problem and we are satisfying Matt 18:17. There must be an entity in our city called "the church" which exists in practicality. I think denominations such as the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican all recognized the need of a practical church administration in the city representing all believers in a city. Quote:
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This verse is about taking 2 or 3 believers with you ,from the church, for the purpose of resolving some matter. Here is the context: Matt 18:15 If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. Here is when you need two or three: 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] If the two or three don't make a difference, then you tell it to the church: 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Logically, "the church" mentioned in verse 17 must be a larger entity than just two or three. So it's talking about 2 or 3 believers coming together to pray about binding and loosing: Matthew 18:19 Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. Matt 18:18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. If a church was only 2 or 3, it does not even satisfy the requirements of a 5 fold ministry, at least one teacher, one prophet, one evangelist, one pastor, one apostle. If a church has 2 or 3 elders only, where is the rest of the church? It depends, who started the local church in the city? |
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06-18-2017 03:20 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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In all these discussions with you I feel like I am arguing with a Roman Catholic and not an Evangelical and perhaps not even a Protestant. What other things do you think Jesus called us to do in comparison to the great commission? Foot washing? Preserving the holy relics such as the toenail clippings of St Thomas? Pilgrimages to the holy land? Quote:
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06-18-2017 03:20 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You equate Christians living in the denominations with Jews living in the nations. You equate Jews in Israel with Christians who have the name "the church in ..." Drake, your error is in wrongly believing that locality or geography is our ground of oneness, and not Christ Himself who is our real ground of oneness. The same type of persuasive speech deluded the Colossians. We are rooted and grounded in Christ, not in some secular and worldly geographic boundaries, which can change with every passing war. (See 2.1-10) |
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06-18-2017 03:01 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Koinonia 'Drake, you have equated those not meeting with your group with Jews in New York who are not citizens of Israel' No, I did not. Stop misrepresenting my position. Address my argument. |
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06-18-2017 02:26 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-18-2017 01:08 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Here is where you err. It is irrelevant whether Witness Lee's name is even mentioned or the Living Stream Ministry materials are used for edification or not. Throwing that up in a discussion about the truth revealed in the Scriptures concerning the church and the churches is ignorance at best or the enemy's craft at worst. Now Koinonia, if you agree with the biblical revelation as I have attempted to explain it then say it. If you don't then it is doubtful you will ever transcend an argument of semantics and it is pointless to reason with a contentious man. But if you agree with the biblical revelation but you just disagree with the execution of it then say that too. I get that. We can discuss it. Yet, it does not contribute one iota to anyone's edification for you to take my words and then twist them to say something I did not say nor believe. Believe me, I will tell you exactly what I mean to say and you will have plenty of material to object to. Let's agree where we do and where we don't we can engage in a vigorous exchange. Thanks, Drake |
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06-18-2017 11:13 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Then I was forced to choose between (1) LSM's obscure "church naming rights" found only in John's Revelation and (2) all the hundreds of verses in every book of the N.T. concerning righteousness, not lording it over the elect, descriptions of healthy leaders, descriptions of false teachers, etc. all of which exposed LSM leadership for the past half century. I still have much precious take away from my time in 3 LC's, but have little use for LSM and its books. Back in August of 2007, while I was debating what to do with my vast library of books from LSM, a sudden thunderstorm hit the neighborhood, flooded my basement, and all those boxes of books got soaked with backed up sewage. Problem solved. |
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06-18-2017 10:07 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
When a [Christian] [begins associating with Living Stream Ministry and Witness Lee and begins to meet with those believers who refer to themselves as "the church in London] they begin participating in fulfilling the mission of the [church in London]. They call themselves [a member of the church in London] because they are... they are not [a member of the church in London] merely because they call themselves one. A [beliver] [not meeting with the group associated with Living Stream Ministry and Witness Lee and who refer to themselves as "the church in London"] is not [a member of the church in London] just because they call themselves as such. |
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06-18-2017 07:01 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
By analogy, there would be no nation of Israel if 23 million Jews lived somewhere other than Israel. Though all 23M are Jews only 6M are practically standing on the proper ground as the nation of Israel. Therefore, a nation exists practically. When a Jew exercises the Law of Return they begin participating in fulfilling the mission of the nation of Israel. They call themselves an Israeli citizen because they are... they are not an Israeli citizen merely because they call themselves one. A Jew living in New York is not an Israeli citizen just because they call themselves as such. Likewise, a group of Christians meeting as the church in a city on the ground of oneness in that city, expressing the universal Body of Christ are the church in that place and should call themselves as such. A name alone is insufficient. And like the Jew living in New York, a Christian can choose to live in a denomination but is not practically living on the ground of oneness of the church no matter how much they claim they are. Neither should they complain about those who actually meet on the ground of oneness of the church and call themselves as such because that is what they are, not just what they call themselves. Drake |
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06-18-2017 06:17 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I'll answer your objection this way. There are 23 million Jews in the world eligible for Israeli citizenship but only 6 million live in Israel. Why should the remaining 17 million, who live somewhere else, complain about the 6 million living in the promised land, for calling themselves the nation of Israel? They wouldn't and they dont. All 23 Million are Jews, but only 6 Million constitute the nation of Israel practically because they are living on the ground of the nation of Israel. Likewise, 100 Christians in New York standing on the ground of the church does not exclude others. And a Jew who prefers to stay in New York should not complain about a Jew who moves to Israel and calls himself a member of the nation of Israel. And a Christian who chooses to remain in one of thousands of Christian assemblies in New York city should not complain about the 100 that choose to stand on the ground of the church in New York City. But some do. Drake |
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06-18-2017 05:33 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
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How truly ironic to see aged wordsmiths accuse others of "semantics over substance." |
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06-18-2017 05:30 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God The whole LC argument is semantics--that there is no "genuine local church" unless there is a group that calls itself "the church in," and when a group calls itself "the church in," that group is then the "practicality" of the "genuine church life." |
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06-18-2017 05:24 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
As for counselling, what are you talking about. Your group doesn't even provide the counselling its own people need. Just admonitions to read more Bible or ministry, and go to more meetings. Quote:
And that has been upheld ever since by the leadership. No sarcasm needed. Your group refuses the real commands of Christ. They think the only efforts of value are about "preaching the gospel." I do not deny any command concerning that. But it is not the only command. And when your whole focus is on your corporate spirituality, special standing, and gaining "good material" for the kingdom, you refuse the command of Christ in the name of superior, "unique" position with God. You can't be part of a group that is so opposed to the actual teachings of Christ and claim to be God's "unique" and "genuine" church to the exclusion of all others. |
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06-18-2017 05:13 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But your argument now favors semantics over substance. Drake |
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06-18-2017 04:15 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But I do not agree that using "the church in London" letterhead makes your group the "reality" or "practicality" of the church in London. That's just silly. Drake, perhaps you would tell me: Is it possible to be a part of the practicality of the local church without being associated with Living Stream Ministry and Witness Lee? |
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06-18-2017 12:10 AM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-17-2017 10:13 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Koinonia "We are not the church in London because we call ourselves "the church in London." We are the church in London because we are. " That is true. And if you recognize that is what you are, then you should call yourself that too. That would be consistent too. Drake |
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06-17-2017 08:43 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
We are not the church in London because we call ourselves "the church in London." We are the church in London because we are. The church in London is all the believers in London. How absurd to recognize this reality but then say, "Well, yes, that's true, but actually the church in London is this minuscule group of people who use the name 'church in London.'" Not even WL taught that. Quote:
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Also, I would like to ask you again: Is it possible to be a part of the practicality of the local church without being associated with Living Stream Ministry and Witness Lee? |
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06-17-2017 02:34 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
It is a strange view you hold, that we who call ourselves the church in London are not the church in London, and yet every denomination who does not call themselves the church in London, is the church in London. Your view says that all the believers are the church in London, but in practicality there is no such thing as "the church in London"? How crazy is that? If a person wanted to meet with "the church in London" in practice, a person would have to choose one of the denominations. So an idea of the church in London without anyone calling themselves "the church in London", is just an idea that does not exist in practicality. Quote:
Anglican Catholic Lutheran. Which one of these do you suppose is practically the local church? Or Can we have the local church in practicality without being associated with any of these denominations? To put this another way.. suppose you arrive in London as a Christian in London.. and you want to worship with the church in London - where do you go? Quote:
It's the life of Christ and Christ Himself in our midst. |
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06-16-2017 04:20 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
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06-16-2017 03:03 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God I admit my use of the phrase "join the LSM" was a mistake. By the way I like this format you've made in how you quote me, it's easier to reply to. Quote:
Let's take this to an extreme example because it emphasizes the point. Suppose every believer in a city never went to church on Sunday but stayed at home. It is true they are all part of the one local church in the city. But practically and physically they are not unless they are meeting together. Note that church means assembly. We cannot be the church practically unless we are assembling together. Hebrews 10:25 says "not giving up assembling together". No assembly = no church. I address this further below in my reply to you about the invisible walls. Good because that is the only thing I recall possibly offending you about. But if there is anything, let me know. Quote:
http://www.lordsrecovery.org/ http://www.local-church-movement.org/ Recovery means to bring something back to its original condition. To spend time in the recovery would be to spend time in the genuine experience of Christ and the genuine church life. Quote:
Even though all believers in the city are part of the local church and the body of Christ, not all believers are experiencing the genuine church life in their denominations. It is in this sense that there is an "us" and a "them". Luther and co. were a group of believers who left the Catholic system to experience Christ genuinely and the genuine church life. So in my mind they would have represented the real local church in the city, although they may not have seen themselves as such. They may have seen themselves as "reformed Catholics", I don't know. Luther originally only wanted to reform, or as I would say, recover, the Catholic church. But political religious pressures meant that became impossible, and the Lutheran church was born, which became a denomination. |
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06-16-2017 12:21 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Another I have heard "those in the denominations" in addition to your quotes above are all far too occurring in prophesying meetings. To address it is defended. I know not everyone in the local churches speak that way, but when it is spoken there's no correction. |
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06-16-2017 12:09 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Every so often a local church member will meet with a non-LSM/LC where their relatives meet. It's one thing to go there, but will abstain from taking communion with them. It's part of the invisible wall that's been created by the ground doctrine. |
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06-16-2017 09:22 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-15-2017 11:18 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But even the term LCM meaning Local Church Ministries that everyone is using is incorrect because such an entity does not exist. It is jumping to conclusions when you implied that just because I said LSM it means I have a denominational mindset. But if I said local church in <city name> you or others would impose your definition of LSM/LC/LCM because you know of my affiliations with the ministry and deny that LSM/LC/LCM represents the local church in <city name>. LC/LCM are terms that others use to refer to us, or should I say, the friendly local church in your city But I think I know where all of this is coming from. You are still a little upset that I mistakenly called you a denominational person in the Spurgeon thread. In that thread you seemed to say that you are not a denominational person because you are a FTTA graduate, or that you have acquired the non-denominational mindset from your time in the Recovery. I'm not a denominational person either for similar reasons. I wonder if it has occurred to anyone, that perhaps the reason so many denominations exist today, is because people have convinced them they are a denomination, and so it is a kind of invisible wall clouding their judgement. For example, I can imagine people in Luther's day, telling him that his newly founded church was a denomination worse than the Catholics. "Luther, you are in a sect, a denomination, not the real local church in the city, that is the Catholics. You are so divisive, you are even more divisive and worse than the Catholics because you claim to be the genuine church. Luther, how dare you say that the Papacy is degraded, that is slanderous and divisive". |
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06-15-2017 10:11 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-15-2017 09:50 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
In a way I already have because I explained why I used it and not for the reasons you assumed. I will try to be consistent from now on. I already showed that you did jump to conclusions because although I used the word lsm lc or lcm it does not mean I believe they are denominations. The full quote of what I said confirmed that, but you were too busy trying to prove me wrong than to realize that. |
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06-15-2017 09:38 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Evangelical, you wrote: Quote:
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06-15-2017 09:26 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God There was nothing offensive in that. |
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06-15-2017 09:17 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-15-2017 09:02 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
So far in the discussion you have not indicated that you have been offended and that is normally the first thing a person does before they request an apology. |
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06-15-2017 08:39 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-15-2017 08:18 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
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06-15-2017 04:44 PM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The Living Stream Ministry is an organization, you can disagree with this, but it is a fact, so you would be wrong. The Local Churches (at least in all of the cities that I am aware of in the US) are also organizations. For example the organization tax ID for the Church in Anaheim is 51-0179931 - registered organization. Interestingly enough, churches/religious organizations are not required to publicly file the 990 tax info - which I'm sure is a great relief for LSM/Local Churches. Many churches will post their financial information voluntarily, but I can't find a Local Church that has been willing to be this transparent (surprise surprise?). You say that many take issue with "us calling ourselves the local church in the city, but have no issue with 100 churches in the city calling themselves whatever they like." Who are the "many" you reference? Many people don't take issue with your naming scheme. People take issue with your theology/beliefs/practices, there is a difference here. These same people may or may not take issue with the beliefs of other churches in the city. Just think... what if non LSM affiliated church made the same claims that you make about your organization - one true church, recovering truth, the unique move of God, etc. Would you take issue? Or maybe just call the LSM attorneys? |
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06-15-2017 03:17 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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Okay, having read the thread when I said "join the LSM", I now see the problem. If you read my post carefully, I said: I think the experience of most who join the LSM from denominations Did you see how I said "from denominations"? So clearly I was not saying the LSM is a denomination. So I was being true to my nondenominational beliefs. It is your confirmation bias that read the "join the LSM" part and did not consider the "from denominations" part. You jumped to conclusion and thought I am betraying my beliefs and tacitly accepting it. And I realize that my confirmation bias has accused you of being denominational when I can see that you are not. For that I apologize. Now, strictly speaking I should not have said LSM because that is a ministry. To address your question about LSM being a ministry, well, we had lengthy discussions about that here: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...&postcount=157 Why did I say "join the LSM". Well, if I always referred to us as the local church, then every time I said that people would point out that I'm actually in a denomination called LCM, LSM, or LC. In that thread everyone was referring to the LC/LSM interchangeably. So rather than explain myself every time in a few paragraphs about how the LCM, LC is not a denomination or an organization and that LSM is a ministry and the difference between a church and a ministry, I would rather just go with the flow and address the topic at hand. Many on here refer to the local churches as the LC or the Local Church. Whether you call it that, or LCM, or LSM or LC, to me makes no difference, if we truly believed we are the local church in the city. It is all referring to us as a denomination or organization, which I disagree with, but I see no need to press the issue in every discussion. I say "us" for your benefit, not mine. I still believe you to be part of the church in the city, despite your denominational or nondenominational affiliation. But if you are meeting in a denomination then clearly there is an "us" and a "you" point of difference. For example, I do not believe that a person can stay at home on a Sunday for example and claim to be "meeting with the local church", just because they are one of many Christians in the city. If you are a Jehovah Witness or Catholic why would I include you and pretend you are part of the same church (practically) as me ? To say that all believers in the city are the church, is not to say "let's pretend that every denomination is part of the church". Names - names are important, to God, and biblically, names have a significant place in Scripture. Names are also important in families. A wife will take her husbands name. A husband would get upset if the wife took another mans name. Names, trademarks etc, are also important in the business and marketing world, companies spend a lot of money developing and protecting names. Given all that, consider, that names for God's church may be more important than you realize. I will give an extreme example, some churches call themselves LGBT church. I think that would be upsetting to God, even if all members were not actually LGBT, the name has meaning. Here is the irony and the hypocrisy - many take issue with us calling ourselves the local church in the city, but have no issue with 100 churches in the city calling themselves whatever they like. That is the very definition of denominationalism. The word denomination comes from the word de-name-iate. |
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06-15-2017 02:48 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-15-2017 02:14 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Also, now here you are saying that "LSM is the ministry." Would you like to define that? What does that mean? Quote:
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06-15-2017 02:09 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
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06-15-2017 02:04 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
No it doesnt demonstrate my denominational mindset because a) join the lsm is the language everyone else was using. I was being considerate and not wishing to defend the fact for the hundreth time that no one "joins the lsm" and lsm is the ministry not the church. b) on countless occasions I have referred to the church as all believers. c) even current members think it is a denomination like little brother. I have corrected them in another thread. But I dont see the point correcting most people here who have made their mind up that it is a denomination. Because it requires a degree of light and revelation to see that. |
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06-15-2017 10:16 AM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Evangelical writes "I think the experience of most who join the LSM from denominations is related somehow to the lack of sound bible teaching, or the lack of all members functioning, or just general dissatisfaction with the denomination. I think this explains a high number coming from traditional mainline denominations, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and particularly those that reject biblical values and adopt pro-gay marriage stance etc. I do not expect many coming from denominations which teach the bible and value members participating - baptist, presbyterian etc. A number are non-denom Christians who go from house fellowship to house fellowship but want something more structured." Then he writes "Could you please quote me where I said "joining the LSM" or "join the LSM" ? I don't recall writing that, because LSM is not something we join, I may have written join the Recovery or join the local church, which means something completely different. If I wrote that then I should correct it, but I would have wrote it for the sake of not getting into another argument about it. I've checked this thread and the other two that I have recently posted in, and I cannot find anywhere where I wrote about joining the LSM. For example, if you scroll all the way down to post #364, it was Igzy who was using that language, not me. I was talking about "joining the local church". I made sure I use lower case l and c. If you can't quote me, then you should realize and admit that you are claiming I said things I did not say. Furthermore, you are claiming I am denominating myself because of using the word "we". Yet as post #364 shows, and a few posts either side of it, I am indeed talking about the local church as all believers in the city, and it is others who are referring to us as a denomination and saying it means we "join the LCM" etc. So please go through the posts, and check whether or not you might have gotten a little confused. It's called confirmation bias. You see things I did not write, and assume things I did not say. We are all guilty of it, because it's the way the human brain works, but if you insist I said things I did not say, then I must correct you." |
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06-15-2017 09:04 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Perhaps when you learn your own history, you will pause a bit before condemning all others. |
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06-15-2017 08:39 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Again, the fact you would say this (and other things) demonstrates your actual denominational mindset. Quote:
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06-14-2017 11:19 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I don't recall writing that, because LSM is not something we join, I may have written join the Recovery or join the local church, which means something completely different. If I wrote that then I should correct it, but I would have wrote it for the sake of not getting into another argument about it. I've checked this thread and the other two that I have recently posted in, and I cannot find anywhere where I wrote about joining the LSM. For example, if you scroll all the way down to post #364, it was Igzy who was using that language, not me. I was talking about "joining the local church". I made sure I use lower case l and c. If you can't quote me, then you should realize and admit that you are claiming I said things I did not say. Furthermore, you are claiming I am denominating myself because of using the word "we". Yet as post #364 shows, and a few posts either side of it, I am indeed talking about the local church as all believers in the city, and it is others who are referring to us as a denomination and saying it means we "join the LCM" etc. So please go through the posts, and check whether or not you might have gotten a little confused. It's called confirmation bias. You see things I did not write, and assume things I did not say. We are all guilty of it, because it's the way the human brain works, but if you insist I said things I did not say, then I must correct you. |
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06-14-2017 08:56 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
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06-14-2017 08:53 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-14-2017 07:33 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
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06-14-2017 04:44 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
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06-14-2017 04:16 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God But no one else here sees is that way. They say we are a denomination and denominations are okay. So as long as everyone else is content in calling us the LSM denomination or the LC (capital L and C) and refer to us as "LSM members", I am happy to oblige and say "you" and "we", because we have already had lengthy discussions about how the LSM is actually a denomination and my belief that a church includes everyone in the city is wrong. |
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06-14-2017 04:12 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
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06-14-2017 04:11 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
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06-14-2017 03:42 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
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06-14-2017 03:40 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
However now you have stated that simply by using the words "we" and "us" I have "created the denomination". That's just crazy talk and I hope others here can see that my idea of names causing divisions is much more sensible than your idea of simply using the word "we" as creating a division. I would not use the word "we" unless I knew that you are part of my local church. |
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06-14-2017 02:49 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Evangelical, it strikes me every time I see it. Your persistent sectarian use of the words "we" and "us" betrays your denominational mindset. You have created the denomination by your attitude. |
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06-14-2017 02:34 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The church is all the believers. Don't you want that? |
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06-14-2017 01:58 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You think we are a denomination anyway so I dont think my use of the word we is denominating myself. I have tried before to write as if everyone is in the same church as me but it doesn't work because people keep reminding me that we are a denomination. I dont think people here would want me to think of them as being part of the recovery. Even if you were in the recovery in a certain locality I might use the word we to refer to my church. |
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06-14-2017 08:38 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-13-2017 11:47 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Haven't you just presumed that because one is a lawyer or doctor or an elder they aren't helping people? I never used the word 'high powered", that is your strawman. Lawyers and doctors serve homeless and poor people too. The apostle Paul said "Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel". Sorry Paul, but Koinonia thinks you don't do enough for God. If Paul were here you would criticize him for only preaching the gospel and not doing much else! You would say, "Paul, why are you wasting time making tents why aren't you out feeding soup to the homeless"? He might say to you "Christ did not send me to feed soup but to preach the gospel". Who is "we"? WE is me and others. Who is "you"? |
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06-13-2017 10:56 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And for the umpteenth time--who is we? Who are you referring to? You sound so presumptuous. You are high-powered professional (lawyer or medical doctor), "on top of being an elder," and you have to listen to everyone's problems and complaints. Yet, heaven forbid you help homeless people. You already do enough for the Lord. What an attitude. |
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06-13-2017 09:54 PM | ||||||||
zeek |
Re: The Unique Move of God Do you mean following Christ as opposed to focusing on Buddha or Krishna and receiving their grace? Are you seriously quoting O'Reilly the serial harasser as an authority on this subject? |
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06-13-2017 04:51 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
What about all the ministries that mostly focus on preaching the gospel? Billy Graham? The great commission is about preaching the gospel primarily. Quote:
Sorry it's not enough "religious work" for you (sarcasm again). I forgot that we must be out on the street feeding soup to homeless people to be truly doing what God asks, and all these things are not enough (sarcasm again). Quote:
The problem is when you focus on a works-based religion then no amount of works will ever be enough for you. Doing one's occupation to one's best ability is not enough, you have to be feeding soup to homeless people not just preaching the gospel. Then feeding soup will not be enough, one must travel to Africa and be a missionary. Witness Lee said "all those who advocate religion will surely be persecutors of the church. " You are starting to sound like a persecutor because you advocate religion. |
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06-13-2017 04:33 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You mock other Christians for doing things other than those that you listed. Now there's some real evidence that you are one with all of the body of Christ; that you don't despise any of the members of that body. Can't you just feel the sarcasm in that last sentence? It should burn. But you will declare that you are righteous to demean those things. Just like the ones that Jesus declared in Matt 5 to be last in the kingdom because they taught less that the whole law, even as expanded by Jesus just a few verses earlier. |
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06-13-2017 04:17 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I think the Recovery is a good example of that. I don't think anyone could argue, that with all the meetings, trainings, door knocking and gospel outreach in the Recovery we are standing for doing nothing. One will usually find themselves much busier than they would in a denomination - including in the Lords table meeting when everyone is expected to prophesy and serve in some way. People who sit on a chair silently are normally asked to do something. |
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06-13-2017 04:09 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Maybe one of those baby Christians that perpetually can only tolerate milk. But not a mature Christian. Not arriving at a "full grown man." |
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06-13-2017 04:06 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
As for the trendy "Christianity is not a religion" mantra, that is a modern fantasy. If there is anything to learn about this thing we call "the faith," it is that nothing about it is really different after all these years. The culture in which Christians find themselves changes. The ability of the average Christian to actually read, and own a Bible has changed. But the truth in it has not. It has been understood as religion positively by its adherents for centuries. It is only the modern need for avoiding "doing" anything that has turned against the truth in the Bible. And the need of some to label what we do with a different word than the one that is also placed upon other religions like Islam, Buddhism, etc. But if you turn to the dictionary, religion remains a perfectly good word to describe the positive aspects of what we as Christians are engaged in, and do, related to our "relationship" with God. Lee liked to say that anything where man tries to reach or please God is "religion" and to be despised. Well, then you expect that there is nothing that we must do as Christians? Nothing that is required of you in a "doing way? if not, then I must presume that you constantly need grace to cover your lack of will to act according to what Christ said you were to be taught to obey. Obey, not just know about and appreciate. There is actually much that we must do. And if I call that religion, it does not suddenly become something to instead be avoided. If it was all about God coming to me — that I actually do nothing — then why is there anything that I should worry about? Why worry about living righteously. God will do it if that is his desire for me. Why worry about meeting with other Christians? Why would Paul write to so many different churches encouraging them to "do" differently in so many things, including rather secular-seeming things. And why would Christ charge the disciples to teach others to "obey all that I have commanded"? |
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06-13-2017 03:00 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-13-2017 02:56 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The bible never really defines religion, "religion is...". The verse in James is not meant to be a definition of religion but to explain what charitable activities are pleasing to God. If we think the verse in James is a definition of religion, then it means that Christianity is about taking care of orphans and widows, and not anything to do with the gospel, or Christ dying on the cross. Just take care of your widowed great grandmother and you are a Christian! which is absurd. It is clearly not meant to be a defining statement of what religion is. |
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06-13-2017 07:37 AM | ||||||||
zeek |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-13-2017 07:04 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Rick Warren is just like so many others in this day. It is trendy to say that Christianity is not a religion. That is because they have bought into the overly narrowed definition of religion. In making those kinds of statements, they ignore that the Bible itself refers to the Christian life as religion. Therefore those comments are based on a rejection of what the Bible says and acceptance of the alternate meaning of "religion." This can only be understood as an effort by some to divide believers, and is obviously sucking otherwise good Christians into its net. Rather than standing for truth, people like you alter the meaning of words for the purpose of creating a separate religion that is solely yours and excludes others. And yes, your is also a religion. But I am not sure how Christian it really is. |
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06-12-2017 05:53 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Even Rick Warren says Christianity is not a religion. Let us agree to disagree on the meaning of the word religion and religious activity, and try to agree on what we mean. I or we (i.e. Rick Warren and I ) , might say that religious activity is anything we do for God without using our spirit. What doth thou sayest? |
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06-12-2017 05:05 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
As for the statement "Christianity is not a religion but a relationship," even that is not a correct assessment of Christianity. The whole "it is a relationship" is to ignore that it is also a requirement. It is commands that are to be obeyed. Not just emotions and feelings flowing between persons in "a relationship." The simplistic "not religion" but "is relationship," as if that is all there is to it, is a denial of the requirement for action and obedience. It distills the Christian life down to "spiritual" activities of prayer and praise and "secular" activities like living in this world. It denies the commands of Christ and removes all burdens to do more than "learn more about Jesus." Get to know him better. It needs lots of grace because we are constantly short of the glory of God since we don't even try. (And it despises the word "try.") You love to find someone who sort-of-kinda-seems-to-agree-with-you and stick them out there as if that is the end of the search. Try again. Find the real analysis that determines from the scripture that putting the label "religion" on the fullness of activities and life of the Christian is incorrect or is rejected by the scripture. You won't find it. It is only the ones who want to stuff things in a box so as to hide the truth about them and then declare that everything in the box is bad who say religion is just bad. Or people who have never really thought about what they are thinking or saying. |
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06-12-2017 02:12 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The definition you subscribe to implies that christianity is a religion and not a relationship. It is more a catholic view. |
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06-12-2017 10:26 AM | ||||||||
zeek |
Re: The Unique Move of God For years, Lee encouraged people to chant "O Lord Jesus" over and over until it became vain repetition. Eventually even he got tired of it and chastised his followers for doing it. I was there. |
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06-12-2017 10:11 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Maybe you would be better served by speaking directly to what is problematic. It is not that it is "religious activity" because there is no agreed upon definition for that term that gets you what you want. Instead, just state that vain repetition is not a spiritual activity. We would all agree upon that. But whether "religious activity" is not spiritual is not agreed upon. The Bible itself does not agree with you that "religion" is bad. And it does not address "religious activity." And if religion is not bad, then the activities that are associated with it would not be bad. So work with what is true rather than just what you want to be true. |
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06-09-2017 06:15 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
When I said vain repetition is a religious activity, it is not rocket science to realize I would be using our definition of religious activity, not yours. Religious activity always has negative connotations, because Christianity is not a religion but a relationship (see GotQuestions.org) |
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06-09-2017 03:07 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Bottom line with the LCM: When they do it, it's anointed. When anyone else does it, it's dead. Doesn't matter what it is--establishing a seminary (or cemetery!), setting up a secular profit center, suing other Christians. Shoot, even allowing the leader's son to molest sisters in the movement headquarters is apparently part of the blessing, given how they all kissed up to Philip Lee and swept the sisters under the rug. All joking aside it's a serious error, because they can use it to justify anything they do and condemn anything anyone else does. It's the ultimate consummation of "even when we're wrong we're right." This is dark corruption. This is the deep things of Satan. |
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06-09-2017 11:50 AM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Just as a brother spoke on hierarchy. When others do it, it's hierarchy. When we do it, it's not. Yes it is incredible. |
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06-09-2017 11:44 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Like I said pretty incredible! |
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06-09-2017 11:29 AM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Several good illustrations would be door-knocking, SSOT/VBS and FTT/YWAM. When others do it it's a religious activity and a movement of man. When I do it, it's organic and not a religious activity. |
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06-08-2017 03:43 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Now I have the tools to "prove" that all of LSM's lawsuits are organic! |
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06-08-2017 12:19 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God How To Succeed in Demagoguery Step 1: Establish that "religious activity" is bad. Step 2: Define whatever you want to as "religious activity." More specifically label what others do as "religious activity," but label what you do as "not religious activity." Precede similarly with phrases like "of the natural man," " out of the flow," "being negative," "not aligned with the vision," "just your opinion," "having the right scent" (a personal favorite) and any others you can think of. Repeat. Congratulations! You are a demagogue! |
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06-08-2017 10:14 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You failed to respond to my comment. I said that a "religious activity" is not, by definition, something that is bad or to be avoided. I also was not saying that vain repetition is good, or in any way defending that. You are throwing the term "religious activity" around as if it is, by definition, only false, unspiritual, or inappropriate. I do not agree. "Religious activity" can refer to many quite acceptable, appropriate, and proper activities. It can also refer to those like Unto had commented on. With a proper understanding of "religious activities" you actually said that vain repetition exists — without any comment on appropriateness. But you intended it to be an agreement that vain repetition is inappropriate. To say that, calling it a "religious activity" fails because it is not simply the collection of inappropriate activities. It is like saying that misreading the Bible is reading the Bible when you meant to say that misreading the Bible is a problem. Get it now? |
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06-07-2017 04:00 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God See post 386. My remark about religion that you replied to was focussed on vain repitition that untohim mentioned in his post. I did not jump to a different topic..you did. So I replied to you on the topic of vain repitition...not religion. I dont want to discuss the meaning of religion and religious activity again when gotquestions.org adequately descibes it. |
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06-07-2017 09:28 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Not sure how this responds to anything I said. Rather you jumped to a different topic with the hope that it would be seen as a proactive response. |
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06-07-2017 03:42 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Besides you, noone would describe Paul's three prayers here as "repetition." |
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06-07-2017 12:40 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Depends. Sometimes praying the right idea is better than praying the right words of scripture with the wrong idea. |
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06-07-2017 12:39 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-06-2017 08:04 PM | ||||||||
Nell |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Before Benson encountered Lee, he may have even still been a college student at Baylor, he shared with some of the "brothers" that he had had a dream. He dreamed "something like" (this is not exact) he would one day be the leader of a large group of Christians (or Christian movement?). Maybe even that the Lord told him he would be the leader... . I believe that this dream has been a big influence on his life and walk with the Lord. It's even possible that he set out to make his dream come true...maybe even in a manner such as you have suggested. Although, I'm not sure that becoming the CEO of an exclusive publishing house for Lee and Nee counts as becoming the leader of a large group of Christians. Nell |
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06-06-2017 04:42 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God I don't know why, but I found this terribly funny. |
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06-06-2017 02:15 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Pray-reading non-scripture is as effective as calling on the name of Abraham Lincoln. |
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06-06-2017 01:09 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Pray-reading non-scripture is probably self-brainwashing. That's what Benson did, I think. He basically inundated his brain with Witness Lee teaching until it succumbed. |
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06-06-2017 12:22 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Still with pray-reading if not careful, there's the trap of becoming too religious with it. |
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06-06-2017 07:04 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God You might just be playing word games with Unto. But so much of the time you are looking for reasons to throw out words like "religious" for the purpose of evoking some presumptively negative image planted there so many years ago by Lee. As if "religion" or "religious" is necessarily a bad thing. Just like almost every other thing you talk about, there is no evidence that "tradition" is simply bad — or "liturgy," or "religion." And, similarly, there is no evidence of a "unique move of God" that somehow excludes activities, actions, and so on of Christians other than those in the LRC, or excludes any "religious" activities because they are considered sub-par relative to the standard of a "unique move." |
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06-05-2017 09:38 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-05-2017 01:20 PM | ||||||||
UntoHim |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-05-2017 11:14 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But you make that judgment without any actual understanding of the content of such a meeting, or the spiritual significance or impact it has on its participants. And you make that judgment without actually understanding what a liturgy is and presuming that your meetings are not full of liturgy and even tradition. Yet you demean both in complete ignorance of what they actually bring to the participant. And participate they do. You think that your form of meeting is the only participatory form of any consequence. Actually, yours is the effect of the Church in Corinth deciding that they know better than Paul and setting aside his limitations on how they should conduct their meetings. But the most significant thing about your post is that (once again) you did not respond to my most significant charge that your analysis of scripture is undertaken with an eye for how to segregate Christians into us v them rather than to find our commonality in Christ. How you do your meetings, no matter how much I think that you have completely misconstrued the edicts Paul gave in 1 Cor. 14, is not the important thing. Neither is how others do their meetings. It is the common faith in the one Christ, one God and Father, on Spirit, one baptism, etc. It is not in who are the elders in our assembly, nor the identifier we place on our group so as to be findable, nor who our elders are, no who are the ones that we take our teachings from. The most significant thing is that you are elevating items within each of those categories such that you have given yourself the right to dismiss everyone else as deficient. Yet you are blind to the fact that this is exactly what Paul was chastising the Corinthians for in the opening chapters of his first letter to them. Not for having names (and thus your constant blathering about denominations). But for taking their preference for certain teachers to the point that they split up over it. And you like to point to the fact of certain theologians in the center of these various groups — like Luther — are included in the names of the groups that came to follow them. Yet you agree with the split from the RCC that surrounded those people. So you are happy for the separation from the RCC caused by Luther, but are unhappy that those who still follow his teachings are identified by his name in any way. But that identification is not about the person, but the teachings that he brought. And you are more than happy about those teachings. So when Christ Redeemer Lutheran Church changes its name to "church in [city]" what do you have to say about that? Is it now qualified for inclusion in your group? Or will you start looking into something else as a disqualifier? (In other words, is the whole "church in [city]" think just a first line of attack?) |
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06-03-2017 05:00 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But if this is about praying a prayer from the words of another man, then it's no different than praying the prayers in a prayer book or service book. Sometimes the words of a book inspires us to pray in a certain way. And remember that if we pray read a bible verse technically we are praying the words of other men. |
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06-03-2017 08:26 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Really? Benson said he pray-read the entire "The Economy of God" book by Lee. Do you think he would have a problem with pray-reading the HWMR? |
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06-03-2017 08:24 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
There are many groups meeting "as the church in the city." The International Church of Christ meets as one church per city. And there are others. But the LCM always manages to find a reason to invalidate them all and not recognize them as churches. The only local churches it recognizes are those loyal to LSM. Very convenient. This is strong evidence that the locality doctrine does not produce oneness. It only produces an environment where groups fight over the "prize" of getting to be the "one church in the city." In other words it produces more division, while each presumptively "genuine local church" turn its nose up at the other "pretenders." So it's really nothing more than another "our doctrines are better than yours" battle, just like with.... you guessed it.... "the denominations." So the LCM really exists in a bubble of denial. They believe there must be a "practical church in the city" and they want to be it (understandably). But in order to achieve this status in their minds they must block out all the contradictions, absurdities and hypocrisies such a state creates, which again accounts for their being unable to debate with full rationality on boards like this or to honestly and openly defend themselves in the public arena. It also explains why they resort to lawsuits to shut people up, because they simply cannot defend their ideas in an open forum. |
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06-03-2017 03:15 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God So you reject PSRP? |
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06-02-2017 09:22 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-02-2017 09:19 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-02-2017 06:34 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I suppose calling something "liturgy" is simply admitting that the service has become somewhat rote. Whereas the LCM of course lives in denial about that for the sake of never, ever having to admit they have anything that could be called liturgy, because that's what those fallen religious groups do. But not us, cuz we special. |
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06-02-2017 06:08 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Some examples of LCM proprietary definitions serving their equivocation: Division: Division means separating yourself from other Christians because of animosity and a desire to avoid having to deal with them. To the LCM division means not meeting on the "local ground" and/or taking a name. Neither of these definitions are common or biblical. Ministry: Ministry means a spiritual gift which is used to build up others. Paul said in 1 Cor 12:5 that there are many ministries. To the LCM ministry refers to their concept of God's "one ministry from the throne," which eventually equates to Witness Lee's ministry and no other. There is no mention of such a thing in the Bible. Opinion: Opinion is a personal and subjective point of view based on many cognitive factors. Everyone has opinions and the Bible never says they are by nature bad. To the LCM opinion is "the expression of the self," and hence fallen and evil. Actually this was Lee's definition to intimidate anyone who might dare disagree with him. Feel free to add others. |
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06-02-2017 05:32 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
Church life experiences of course are practical. But as per typical LCM equivocation, you define "practical" to mean what you want it to mean, when, of course, it could be defined a lot of ways. This is such a common rhetorical tactic of the LCM that it makes one's head swim, which I suppose is the point. Here is how they do it:
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06-02-2017 01:22 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But I use the normal use of the term liturgy to refer to the churches which are known as conducting "liturgical church services". Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "admitting that our morning revival is prepared beforehand". This implies that I tried to hide that morning revivals are prepared beforehand because they form part of our liturgy, but I was not. This should be obvious, everyone knows they are prepared beforehand, so I was admitting nothing. But where you err is by suggesting that the morning revivals are part of some liturgical service - they are not. We do not use the morning revival for the "church service". The morning revival is not a feature of the Lord's Table meeting and we do not read it off by rote in a service. This is in contrast to denominations where liturgical churches have a specially crafted "order of service" that is prepared beforehand and even tells you what exact words to say when you pray in exactly the same order every week. The morning revival is just our devotional which is used during the prophesying meeting, but even though the outline is prepared and we may all read that together, people are free to express themselves, plus we have different morning revivals every few weeks, which as another thread no here indicates -is how LSM make their money. |
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06-02-2017 01:14 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This idea of a practical church was not invented by Lee, it's just common sense to most people I would say. I don't think many in denominations who actually "plant churches" would agree with you - they wouldn't bother to "plant churches" if they thought that an area without practical assembly already had a church present. |
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06-02-2017 08:32 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-02-2017 08:30 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Please understand that I am not saying that you are brought down by it. But neither are you lifted up because you think your liturgy is better than theirs. Your liturgy doesn't eat Ken-L-Ration and is therefor better. It is just different. To borrow from the words of God himself . . . You search the scripture to find ways to separate yourself from my servants but you do not truly come to me, the only source of unity and oneness — oneness in which you do not seek to find separation. This is the quest in which you are so seriously engaged as you seek to define a "unique move or God" that excludes others and leaves only yourselves within that move. Quote:
Yes, in the Table meeting you are free to call a song. But it is generally enforced as being according to a pattern of progress. I can no longer quote the whole of it, but it is fairly-well established. Deviate very far and it will be corrected. Deviate just a little and they might let it pass, but expect a lecture afterward on the "official" (even though the term will not be used) flow of the Table meeting. I spent many years there and have seen it all first hand. And I have a pretty close relationship with some who are still there and occasionally comment on things like this. But having admitted that your "morning revival" is prepared beforehand, would you scoff at those who read each day's passages from a lectionary that is in a 2 or 3 year cycle? Would you declare that using suggested readings by the pastor from the Sunday sermon is something sub-par. That would seem to fit well with the notion of learning in the temple then fellowshipping through the week. But the expectation that you would find reason to demean either as deficient and evidence that they are not participating in the body of Christ (your group, it would seem from your rhetoric) is pretty consistent with your MO. |
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06-02-2017 07:25 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The idea is a Lee/LCM invention which though interesting is in the end not biblical or even "practical." And it never was intended to be. The idea was invented so that the LCM could claim to be the church to the exclusion of all others. "Practical church" is just another LCM circular argument. They define the idea in such a way so that only they qualify to fulfill it. But the Bible doesn't mention it or require it. The Bible just says assemble together. It never states that all the members in the city have to assemble together or claim allegiance to the same organization, movement, apostle or leader. Sorry, there is just not enough Biblical backing for you to insist others conform to this idea. Continuing to do so is itself contentious and divisive. |
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06-02-2017 04:35 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But practically suppose there are 100 believers in the city who never meet each other. We cannot call that a practical local church. This idea is not practical. A local church only exists when the ekklesia is present, the assembly. If there is no assembly, there's no local church in a practical sense. I think we are not the church in the city, unless we meet as the church in the city. For example, if 100 Christians get together to watch a game, that is not a church, that is a group of people gathering for sport. If 100 Christians get together to celebrate the Catholic mass, technically that is not a church but a group of people gathering for the Catholic mass. I think the early church history shows that each territory or city had elders or bishops, and the church administration was very much territorial in nature. Titus 1:5 says "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city". They were thinking about the territorial boundaries of the church. Not denominational boundaries or boundaries based upon teachings and doctrines. |
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06-02-2017 03:18 AM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I think you have confused the tares with the wheat and you are trying to burn the whole field because you see tares. Jesus didn't seem to consider Jezebel a member of the Church in Thyatira. The letter was to addressed to the believers ("you") who tolerated Jezebel ("her"). So I would not hastily say Jezebel equals the whole Catholic Church or "denominations". Every church which received the letter was already a called-out assembly by definition of "church". Some of their members were being deceived by false believers who sneaked into the assembly. In the letters, Jesus was focusing on His people and warned them, especially the deceived ones, according to their deeds. In the letters Jesus asked His people to repent, to be faithful and to hold fast (didn't find any "come out" here). Probably this is what we should focus more too. |
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06-01-2017 11:43 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I can show you a few examples. For example, this verse: which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea." One church per city. Can you count to seven? Only 7 churches. I can almost guarantee that If you were to ask any pastor of any denomination today, how many churches there are in their city, they would not say "one". They would say the Catholic, the Lutheran, the baptist.. at least 3, 5, 10 or 20 churches in my city. I will show in a minute how the bible says a Catholic church is not a real church. This verse indicates a denomination in that city: Rev 2:15 "Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans." This is obviously the denominations in that city with priest-clergy distinctions. As Nico-laitan means ruler over the people. Here Jesus said he's coming to their city, to fight against those in the Nicolaitan denomination in their city: Rev 2:16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Here is another: Rev 2:20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. In this city, there was a Catholic church, that's who Jezebel represents. A good theologian like Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible makes this clear: By her is meant the apostate church of Rome, comparable to Jezebel, the wife of Ahab; as she was the daughter of an Heathen, so is Rome Papal the daughter of Rome Pagan; and as she was the wife of Ahab, and therefore a queen, so the whore of Babylon calls herself; and as Jezebel was famous for her paintings, so the church of Rome for her pretensions to religion and holiness, and for the gaudiness of her worship; and as she was remarkable for her idolatry, whoredoms, witchcrafts, and cruel persecution of the prophets of the Lord, and for murder, and innocent blood she shed; so the church of Rome, for her idolatrous worship of images, for her whoredoms, both in a literal and spiritual sense, and for the witchcrafts, magic, and devilish arts many of her popes have been addicted to, and especially for her barbarities and cruelties exercised upon the true professors of Christ So it means that if our city is like Thyatira with a Catholic church in it, Jesus is against that Catholic church in our city. So we better avoid that one. Having dealt with the Catholics, Jesus then talks about the "rest of you in Thyatira", These would be the ones who just meet on the ground of locality and not because they are Roman Catholic: Rev 2:24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets, 'I will not impose any other burden on you, We can see that Jesus is treating the whole city as a church. He never talks about multiple churches in the city, nor does he say "churches of Thyatira". There is only one church, and that can be only one true group of followers in any city. Not the denominations that follow Nicolai, Judaism, or Jezebel. Someone on here before was saying how they believe that all churches in a city are a true expression of the body of Christ. This is a false idea because Jesus is clear he is only happy with a small group of people in Sardis: Revelation 3:4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. These few people in Sardis are the true expression of the body of Christ. The others are not. These are the true church. In the city of Philadelphia, there is a denomination of Judaizing Christians. Jesus never treats them as just another church in the city: Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. Presumably, the ones that were right in His eyes were the ones that did not divide into a denomination of Rome or a denomination of Judaizers. In Summary The churches that Jesus addressed were city wide, comprising all believers in each city. There were some groups within those cities who departed from Christ - the Nicolaitans, the Judaizers, the Jezebels (Catholics, by any good bible commentator's reckoning), etc. Jesus nowhere talks about "true believers" in the midst of the Nicolaitans or the Judaizers or the Jezebels. He will deliver some kind of punishment to these, and that is why the bible says "come out" (Revelation 18:4). So if we think that when God sends an angel to deal with the Catholic church, he is going to skip over the "true believers" in her midst ? No, it will be like Lot, or the angel of Death in Egypt, or like the Christians fleeing the Romans in Jerusalem. For any who do not leave, and heed the call, they suffer the punishment. As someone said before.. all of God's people came out. It is not a possible for a true believer to stay in the Catholic church for very long, for example. |
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06-01-2017 07:02 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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06-01-2017 06:26 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
One of the most dangerous attitudes in studying God's Word is believing "I" am saved so the blessings are for "ME" and the blames/curses are for "OTHERS". |
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06-01-2017 05:27 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
As I said the whole LCM model is a trick designed to coerce people into considering the LCM the church in the city. The point is not to produce oneness, the point is to empower the LCM. But we all are the church in the city, just like we are all the universal church. You don't have to call yourself the universal church or join it to be it. There is no evidence from the NT that all the Christians in a city met together, considered themselves all part of the same "practical church" or were all under the same group of leaders. It is just not specified that way. Again this is why most everyone rejects the LCM locality model. There is no biblical foundation for it. It borne from trying to create a rigid binding model from vague non-binding verses. You simply have no ground or right to try to hold people to it. And the ground you give to the devil in people by making them feel guilty about it you will be accountable for. |
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06-01-2017 05:17 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
A lot of what you say is untrue. Typically the choice of song is decided on the spur of the moment by anyone in the meeting. Most things are not prepared beforehand, except what morning revival we are doing that week. |
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06-01-2017 05:11 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God If the word church means 'ekklesia' or assembly, which it does. Then technically, if one does not join the assembly in their city, they have separated themselves from the church in their city. |
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06-01-2017 03:16 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The larger meeting is not for the kind of fellowship that you so mournfully sought in that liturgical service. But that is the kind of fellowship that would get a stern eye from an elder (even in the LRC) for disturbing the meeting. To suggest that fellowship is #1 is probably a mistake. If you look at Acts, you find that they "continued" in the temple for teaching of the apostles, then from house to house in breaking of bread, etc. Without the teaching of the apostles, there is nothing to fellowship in the houses. It becomes an opportunity for the uninformed to discuss what they know little or nothing about. The larger meetings are prime. They are the gathering. But if you don't think the larger meetings are so important, then you probably don't think that the formulaic church is really that important. You don't actually meet that way. At least not as the main thing (according to you). So if that is just a side thing, or the lesser thing, then why is it so important? Besides, if you think that other groups (not the LRC) have home meetings because "things are so bad," then why do you say that the LRC is mainly centered around home groups? Based on your analysis, the reason must be that things are so bad in the larger group. As for "ritualistic church services," are you blind to the fact that each of your "services" is just as ritualistic? There is even a printed order of service for many of them. And the primary one that does not have one (that would be the Lord's table meeting) is so well orchestrated that if someone suggests a song from the wrong grouping at the wrong time, someone immediately jumps up to change it to a proper one. You herald the joy in this meeting. I will admit that there is a kind of joy in it. But it is, at its best, a way to do it. And the presumption of joy being required is a preference of style. And to some, it may seem to be inconsistent with the kind of reverence and praise that "remembering" the death of Christ and what that means to us should entail. Some would suggest that while it is definitely a benefit to us, to be so outward in joy is to think of it more in terms of me than in terms of the sacrifice that it was. The God of the universe died in my place. That should be sobering. We should constantly have a realization of the weight of guilt that should still be ours but is not. Yes, there is joy in that fact. But if it is too great, it suggests that we have little appreciation for the death we are supposed to remember, and too much appreciation for our freedom from whatever that was. Moving on. For many of your meetings, there is no longer any choice of song. It has been preordained in writing from Anaheim. After that, the content of the meeting is similarly preordained — in writing. You have a rather complex liturgy. May not seem like one when you compare it to the kind that is well thought out by real theologians, but it is liturgy. And it is just a regimented as all the others. The only thing it does not control is what comes out of the mouth of someone who "prophesies" in one of the meetings. But if that gets too far off, there are ways that it is dealt with. In the LRC I've seen everything from groaning and bowed heads, to stern looks by elders, to even one standing and shooing the person back into their seat. |
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06-01-2017 07:29 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God This is reckless speculation. And it doesn't even make sense. If the church in Sardis was a "denomination," then why did the Lord refer to it as "the church in Sardis"? |
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06-01-2017 06:03 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The church in the city exists. But the Bible never says if you don't meet as the church in the city you have separated yourself from it. Just as the Bible never says that if you don't meet as the universal church you have separated yourself from it. There is no place in the NT where a group of Christians are identified as not being part of the church. John mentions people leaving, but it's pretty clear he is speaking about people that tried to join the church and weren't true believers to begin with. Again, for you to insist on your interpretation of oneness, to call others divisive for not conforming to such a speculative model is a worse kind of division than what you imagine they are committing. You need to understand the the LCM model of locality was specifically designed so that the Nee/Lee group could declare that they were the church and that other groups were not the church. It was not designed to produce oneness. It was designed so that they could say they were for oneness while conveniently feeling justified to exclude who they wanted to exclude. But the justification they use for their model is extremely speculative, which is precisely why the model has been rejected by the larger Body of Christ over and over and over. |
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06-01-2017 03:12 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-31-2017 09:54 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
"Current move" or "divine stream" whatever you like to call, it is not limited to a single group (unless that single group is the body of Christ as a whole). God holds the seven stars in His right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. He can certainly multitask beyond human imagination. Some churches may be more pleasing to God and some less, but all are blessed with promises to the overcomers. God didn't tell members of the seven churches to move to somewhere else so this is probably not the best formula to become an overcomer. |
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05-31-2017 09:42 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
God's Spirit will eventually produce the oneness you are looking for. Paul predicted that when he said "until we all arrive at the unity of the faith." But you can't force it. You can't expect people to conform to your definition of it. You have to take oneness where you can get it, and look for it to grow and spread. |
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05-31-2017 09:13 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-31-2017 09:12 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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You are exposing yourself as believing the same things for which you criticize others. |
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05-31-2017 09:05 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Where we go wrong is when we start deciding to the extreme that what makes sense for us has to make sense for everyone else. That's why the whole idea behind the generality of the "unity of the faith" exists. Our unity is not in the details. It's in the general faith. And the faith does not include things like the local ground, or someone's proprietary idea of unity. The LCM would be a good idea if it weren't such a bad idea. By that I mean in abstract theory it sounds good. But in application the flaws in the theory become apparent, as when you resort to invalid reasoning techniques to try to "prove" you are right. If you were right you wouldn't have to do that. But you do it over and over and I think you know it. Everyone else here does. You are like Lee in that you think there is a practical mental construct, a theory of how to do church life, that can be applied to everyone. The problem is it's too specific and you eventually succumb to forcing unreasonable ideas on people in the name of "oneness," like expecting everyone to join the Recovery. In short, your theory doesn't work. And I definitely do not think God intended it to work because the end result really is something like Catholicism, where one organization presumes to speak for God to everyone. That always results when an elite few feel they have all the answers, which always issues in corruption and abuse, which is exactly what happened in Catholicism and in the LCM. So what does God do? He continues to raise up people, who continue to coalesce into groups which he can use to one extent or another, or not use, as the case may be. Some of these fade away, some thrive and serve him well, others turn into religious institutions, or worse. But of none of them does he say, this is my unique place, better than all the rest. And even if he did think that, he'd never let us know, because it would go to our heads and make us presumptuous about what we could dictate to others, as it did with Catholicism and the LCM. And the cycle repeats, over and over. History shows that. So in a sense God does scatter shoot. Absolutely he does. That's what the picture of the seed sower shows us. We never know where he is going to appear next, or who he is going to anoint next, or even exactly how we fit in. We just follow him and try to be faithful while we are here. And we let out a long and relieved sigh of humility and admit we don't have the perfect theory of anything. |
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05-31-2017 06:09 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
In fact, things are so bad in the denominations, that the good ones will schedule small group meetings during the week to make up for the fellowship they did not have on Sunday. The Sunday service is the ritualistic "must do", and the small groups are where the real fellowship is said to happen. They've taken a page out of the "home church" groups on that one, keeping the Sunday service but adding some house meetings as well. Many denominations don't really do the house meetings at all. The Recovery is basically built on home meetings, rather than church services, it puts fellowship number 1, over ritualistic church services. |
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05-31-2017 06:00 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I think that God works purposefully with one group at a time, as He so often has according to the Bible (whether Old Testament or New). I don't think God raised up thousands of denominations in a scatter gun approach. In the history of the Bible, we should consider which of these two propositions are more likely: 1) God raising up a group of people, even a minority to do His will, in these last days - I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and say this may not be us, and we fall into category 2) as many here believe. 2) God raising up thousands of groups, who all do different things in different ways and call themselves by different names - hopefully we can agree on this. Someone has to be Babylon the Great, and someone has to be the genuine church. I mean, we can't all be the genuine church now can we, otherwise Revelation would be wrong. How can Revelation tell us to "come out of her" if the "her" does not even exist. But I think we can see that "her" every time we see a statue of Mary or a TV evangelists promise of quadruple financial blessing. I think we need to try to be the people in category 1). The minority who do His will. Normally that will put us at odds with our church, as typically they are comprised of people settled and comfortable in the status quo. |
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05-31-2017 04:16 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Now I am quick to point out that everything about the life of a Christian should be spiritual. That does not mean that it is all about prayer, "fellowship" with other believers, learning from the word, etc. It means that our life is ordered around Christ in all that we do. We are the best doctors, nurses, accountants, programmers, engineers, short-order cooks, truck drivers, trash haulers, farmers, day laborers, etc., that we can be because we serve our employers (masters) as serving Christ. We are the most honest customers and vendors in the marketplace. We are quick to help those in need, and slow to say anything bad about anyone (outside of any truth that must be said — and that is not license to lay down biblical truth on everyone who is a sinner). That is our life. And when we get together to meet as Christians, we are quick to admit our own faults and pray for forgiveness (not just assume that we have grace and move on). We focus on God in our worship, not on ourselves. So while there is always "fellowship" in a meeting of Christians, it is still rational to assume that when someone says "fellowship" in the context of a meeting of Christians, it is intended to refer to their Christ-facing thoughts, actions, talk, and issues, and not just everything simply because everything is "fellowship." I also would agree that a meeting without interaction is not fellowship. But that is a rather unique (if it has ever actually happened) situation to be making a comment about. What were you really trying to say? Just to be at odds on yet another point? That seems to be your MO. |
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05-31-2017 03:39 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Only if a meeting had no prayer or singing or interaction could you say a meeting is not fellowship. |
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05-31-2017 08:52 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God I did not say such a thing. You said that "meeting and fellowship are the same thing." Do you actually believe this? It is not bad by any means to have meetings, but they are a construct just as much as the "services" you decry. Same concept; different words, different format. Fellowship is communion with God and with His people. Meetings may or may not have anything to do with it. |
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05-31-2017 08:24 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Here is the choice before you, Evangelical. You can join the community of grown-ups who have the humility and sobriety to admit they don't have all the answers, that there is good and bad in most every Christian work, that all of us need God's mercy, and we all should work together and help each other. Or you can remain in the nutty fringe who claims to have the secrets keys to all insight, who have a corner on truth and light, and who are qualified to sit in judgment of everyone else, who despite their history of minuscule numbers and feeble growth believe they are the vanguard of a brave new world God is building with them at his right hand. Groups in the latter category have come and gone down through history. They never amount to much. The LCM is just another instance. This is doesn't mean the LCM doesn't have some good things. Like I said, there is good in most all Christian works. But you are not all that you think you are and you are certainly not qualified to demand the rest of the Church do things you way. And it's really getting old listening to you assume you are. And it's getting old hearing you repeat arguments that have been refuted over and over here. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing expecting different results. I don't think you are insane but sometimes it's hard to tell. Why not let your pet beliefs go and try to find common ground here? That would go a lot farther toward softening people to the LCM than any of your, let us say, shaky arguments and stubborn opinions will. |
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05-31-2017 06:29 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And please don't put words in my mouth. I never denied geography plays a part in who we meet with. I just said you don't have a right to enforce it on others according to your interpretation of it. It's flat crazy, Evangelical, for you to think you and only you and your little band are doing things right. That's the kind of things nutty cults believe. It's you who are out of whack with the Body of Christ. I simply do not believe that 2000 years after Christ was here on earth, that at this late date God finally was able to raise up a little crew who finally after all these years see what church is supposed to be and are the only ones doing it right, and that his command to them is to stay away from everyone else and tell them how wrong they are. I really do not believe that is what God is telling you guys to do. Like I said, your way of rationalizing your exclusivism is the same way nutty us-only cults have done it down through history. It makes sense in your tightly-spinning world, but not to more sober minds. Rational objection after rational objection to your arguments have been given from all quarters here. Your response is not to honestly engage most of them, but to either brush them aside, mischaracterize them or engage in other sophistry. Any reasonable person here sees it, but you seem oblivious to it. Are you really expecting people to believe that a person who reasons as carelessly as you do holds the keys to light and truth? Dream on. You are wasting your time. If you like the LCM, fine. Tell us all about how you like it. But please cease with the crappy arguments for it. They don't hold water. This has been show again and again, ad nauseum. |
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05-31-2017 05:59 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Anyway, thanks for the consideration, and if you need a hand with any discussion, let me know. Discussion about Lee/Nee or anything gives me a chance to dust off the old book shelf. |
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05-31-2017 05:07 AM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I think you are confronting with too many different conversations in this thread. So probably it is time to end ours given each of us has expressed enough viewpoints already. It would leave you some time to think more deeply before reponding to the other members' posts. Thanks and hope we both got something out of this discussion. |
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05-31-2017 04:31 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-31-2017 04:23 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Oh you can quote me dozens of niceties from WL's vast online resources, but having lived through their quarantines, I know better how agents from LSM operate. It was worse than hypocritical. |
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05-31-2017 03:51 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
So , bringing this back to topic. The Israelites leaving Egypt was God's unique move. There was no such thing as different groups within the Israelites doing their own move. If they were all demonationalized (pun intended), we can imagine each group would have their own Moses. The baptist Moses, the Catholic Moses, etc. Each would have come out of Egypt in their own way and own time. |
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05-30-2017 11:42 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
May be this is not much different from the LC saints saying they are in the Lord's Recovery. Quote:
Have to say I am quite tired of Lee's terminology system. |
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05-30-2017 10:42 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament as far back as Malchizedek the king of Shalem (pre-Jerusalem), who met Abraham. Abraham renamed Shalem to Yireh, which became known as Yirehshalem (in Hebrew), or Jerusalem. But you'd have to know something about Jewish history and word origins to know this. What's it mean ? I forget, great city, or great city of peace. Quote:
The church in Pergamos was the worldly church, the church in Egypt. ~ Life-study of Revelation, message 16. Lee writes "in God's view, the world is first Egyptian and then Babylonian." Life-study of Jeremiah - message 38. They are both examples of God's people coming out of the world. They are both places where God's people were enslaved. The religious world is afflicted by both worldly enjoyments and rebellion and idol worship. So a bit of both Egypt and Babylon I would say. Moses and the Israelites came out of Egypt into the land of Canaan where the city of Jerusalem was (though called by a different name at the time). Jerusalem was once a pagan city, before it became "Israelite" or "Jewish". Since we are discussing this, should I mention Assyria as well? Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, symbolize three things God's people had to come out of. God's people were carried away into captivity into those three. Those three symbolize different types of churches/denominations - ones with worldly enjoyment, ones with idol worship. All three had to return, or be "recovered" back to Jerusalem. Anyway, I appreciate some discussion about Lee's teachings. But you're only covering one aspect of Lee's teaching. I know that the message to "come out" applies equally to Egypt as it does to Babylon. When you've been through as many life studies as I have, you tend to pick up on things others may not have. |
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05-30-2017 09:57 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
I suggest you brush up (or better not) on Lee's teachings. According to him, Egypt is the world and Babylon is religion. There is a difference between coming out of the world and religion. |
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05-30-2017 09:44 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God How is the Lord's Table meeting not fellowship? |
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05-30-2017 09:44 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Saints from different localities can join together. Everyone is part of the one church. There's no law that says we cannot join together from different localities. In fact, that is encouraged. Quote:
Remember that before the Israelites came out of Babylon, they first had to come out of Egypt. They are different in some aspects. But both examples of God's people coming out, to go into Jerusalem. Both examples suffice for the purpose of this discussion. |
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05-30-2017 09:33 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God How sad... |
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05-30-2017 09:23 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Be careful being too sure about what you see. I think all of us should be reminded by Jesus' words... John 9:41 Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would not have sin; but now that you say, We see; your sin remains. Now you have confused youself between Egypt and Babylon. They are supposed to be different in Lee's interpretation. |
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05-30-2017 08:49 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
No, I am not using the word meeting in the sense of "the Lord's table meeting", but in general. But on that point, I believe that meeting and fellowship are the same thing. It is the denominations /organizations of man that believe a meeting or church service is one thing, and fellowship is what happens after over a cup of coffee. Of course no fellowship happens during the service, because everyone's gaze is fixed on the pastor who is doing all the functioning. |
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05-30-2017 08:44 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
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05-30-2017 08:06 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I don't know why you deny that our geography, or proximity to each other is a common ground for meeting. I guess when people are blinded by religion and denominationalism, the concept of meeting with Christians because they are near them is a strange concept. |
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05-30-2017 07:09 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-30-2017 06:21 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Evangelical, I want to thank you. Because the more you post the more I feel good about being out of the LCM. And the more you post the more the testimony of what's wrong with the LCM is demonstrated. God is good. Thank you, Lord, for exposing this ridiculous parody of a movement through this well-meaning, but over-talkative and ultimately cluelessly tone-deaf brother. Amen. I don't mean to be cruel, Ev. But it is like watching a train wreck over and over in slow motion. |
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05-30-2017 05:15 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But I found that scholars, mostly Jewish I guess, believe not all came out of Egypt. See this article for example: http://www.torahmusings.com/2012/01/...-out-of-egypt/ This is an interesting discussion in itself. Quote:
In regards to physical vs spiritual, many Christians are content to meet physically apart and believe in spiritual oneness. However Watchman Nee/Lee rejected the idea of visible/practical separation yet invisible unity. Nee wrote it was impractical, or an idealistic view of things. I believe that because of our invisible unity, we should meet in unity practically. Quote:
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The overcomers in Thyatira would be those in the Catholic church who have stood fast in her midst, or even come out of her (like Luther did). Nee/Lee recognized many genuine believers in the Catholic church. Quote:
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LC didn't "break up" with anyone. It is a group of people that came out of denominations, to practice the church life. It is equivalent to the Israelites coming out of Egypt, the place of bondage. More of an escape than a breakup. |
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05-30-2017 05:10 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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Did I get that right Evangelical? Huh? |
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05-30-2017 04:39 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God That's stating the obvious, we are talking about Christians meeting together, of course they all have faith in Christ if they are Christian. Yet, that hasn't stopped multitudes of denominations forming has it? |
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05-30-2017 03:38 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
So how is it that the statement that "Christianity is full of traditions" is evidence of anything diminished, degraded, unspiritual, etc.? I would suggest that the LRC is full of traditions. And not all of them are bad. Your Lord's table meeting is a decent tradition. It is observed according to a rather precise format, down to the bread made with bleached white flour. I realize that Ohio has made some real noise about that fact. But ignoring the hypocrisy surrounding the rhetoric and the fact of bleached white flour, it is not a problem. But for all that it is, it is not the formula proclaimed in the Bible. None of them are. Each method of doing it is simply a tradition. So how is it that the statement that "Christianity is full of organizations" is evidence of anything diminished, degraded, unspiritual, etc.? All groups have organization. And when you break things down to finer levels, it is often seen that each has its own organization. Same for the LRC. There is nothing particularly in error with there being organization. And waving "holy water" over your organization by calling it a living organism does not change anything. Anyone can claim their organization is a living organism. There is nothing special about yours that is spoken positively of in the Bible to gain such special status or spoken negatively about anyone else to deny them similar status. So how is it that the statement that "Christianity is full of performances" is evidence of anything diminished, degraded, unspiritual, etc.? By definition, if you do something, you perform. Just because you don't like someone else's actions, traditions, etc., does not transform their actions into something negative called "performance" while the actions, traditions, etc., that you like are not performances. The fact that you denigrate others over their ways, traditions, organization, etc. — all things that are not matters of the core of the faith — is evidence of a sectarian mind. The Methodists like their ways. The Baptists like their ways. The Anglicans like their ways. But to the best of my knowledge, none of the ways of any of these is definitionally void of truth, meaning, spirituality, etc. just because I don't like it. And the fact that I don't like it does not make it un-Christian, degraded, poor, "low gospel," etc. Answer even one of those without reference to your preference of ways to do things. Do it strictly by reference to the scripture as defining either a set way that is being cast aside, or defining practices that are not acceptable. I daresay you cannot actually do either. You may think you can, but only by reference to your false teachings found in your third testament — the Collected Works of Witness Lee, along with the footnotes to your private Bible translation. |
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05-30-2017 07:47 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Truth is that church history tell us for centuries there had always been urgent reformers inside the RCC and genuine Christian communities outside the RCC. Papal emissaries had always been able to squash these "leperous rebels" either by excommunication, inquisition, deceit, open murder, or merely show of force. The collective cry of western humanity moved God to finally provide necessary military might to limit the Pope's reach. It's so ironic how the Recovery loves to exalt Luther, their founding MOTA, and blame all his followers for "messing things up" and forming that first dreaded Lutheran church denomination, the so-called "daughter of the harlot." For many years in the LC's, I heard the same mantra about Witness Lee, the consummate MOTA -- how every one of his endless "moves" and "flows" emanated from the throne of God, but how his many followers constantly "messed things up." |
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05-30-2017 06:29 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Your contentiousness about it. |
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05-30-2017 06:15 AM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, I think your point on physical versus spiritual division is valid. I have been focusing more on the spiritual side (division in the body of Christ) along this discussion thread. I don't know enough about the reformation history. If Luther was still spiritually connected with the fellow true believers in the Catholic Church, that was not division in the body of Christ at all. If they were cutting out fellowship with the believers staying behind, than it would be wrong. Quote:
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I won't jump into that conclusion of Catholic Church not being part of the body of Christ. If it is not part of the body, then who are the overcomers in Thyatira according to Lee's interpretation of the seven churches in Revelation? Quote:
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And LC didn't break up with denominations because they were evil false brothers. The reason was just that they had a different view on locality. Aron has it right - our common ground is not geography but the faith in Jesus Christ. |
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05-30-2017 02:42 AM | ||||||||
aron |
Re: The Unique Move of God At the end of his ministry, Witness Lee told his closest followers, "We were wrong in the matter of receiving the brothers... not receiving them according to God." Our common ground is not geography but faith in Jesus Christ. |
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05-30-2017 12:45 AM | ||||||||
aron |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And have a look at Wesley v/v Edwards v/v Whitefield. Who was MOTA? Or was there another, hidden, "work of recovery" going on while these three were a smokescreen, or even a deviation? Is God not capable of chewing gum while walking down the street? Peter went to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. Later John wrote his epistles and apocalypse. Who says one of them slavishly imitated the other? Or was abjectly servile to another's ministry? |
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05-29-2017 10:23 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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Now my point: Point 1: Coming out of Babylon (or anything) usually means physical separation, division. Biblical insights: The Israelite's physically came out of Egypt and Babylon, Lot physically came out of Sodom, The early Christians physically left Jerusalem on heeding Christ's words. They all divided from something to obey God's voice. For the sake of discussion, as you say, let's suppose it means walking away from the sins of Babylon, whatever that means. The next question is how do we walk away from the sins of Babylon and yet retain oneness with brothers and sisters in Christ who do not walk away from the sins of Babylon? Example: In the case of the Catholic church, the false brothers could be the leaders, the rulers, and we cannot get away from them unless we physically leave. There may be a great many true brothers who decide to stay. So we must separate from them too, physically, though not spiritually. I think it is obvious that not all true believers left the Catholic church with Luther. They chose to stay. But many left and joined Luther. So there is a division, but it is a right division because it is leaving a situation which cannot be fixed. Quote:
Galatians 2:4 4 And this, because of the false brothers, brought in secretly, who stole in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into Slavery under the law. This is in no doubt in reference to Judaizers, or Christians who follow the law. Is this not Catholicism which follows good works to get to heaven? Yet here, the churches in Galatia were genuine churches, with some false brothers in their midst. Suppose a false brother established Roman Catholicism in the same city, and was named as Pope. Then, we have an entirely different situation, where it is a majority of false brothers and a lesser number of true brothers in their midst. We cannot say that the few true brothers should remain, to preserve a "oneness of the body" that does not really exist between the true and the false. If 90% of the Catholic church are false brothers, including the leaders, then it makes no sense to ask the true brothers to remain to preserve a false unity with false brothers. In the case of Luther, he had no choice but to oppose it. He had to separate himself from it. Catholicism, is not part of the body of Christ. In summary, I believe it is right to divide from the false, and wrong to divide from the true. The issue with denominations is that they were or are often divisions between the true (e.g. baptist and presbyterian people being divided over opinions regarding baptism or salvation), whereas the reformation was division between the true (Bible followers, Luther, et al.) and the false (papal system). But in reality, the first divisions came about when people decided to start denominations rather than going back to the common ground upon which all Christians can fellowship - the locality. Any two or more Christians can come together and fellowship if they live in the same place. |
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05-29-2017 10:02 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God And what aspect of the locality is not a common ground we have with the Catholics in our city ? |
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05-29-2017 08:57 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Terry, thank you. I have corrected my typo. |
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05-29-2017 08:09 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Yes, for some that is the case. For myself, it's the matter of quarantines I've tended to become emotional about. For all the turmoil that's existed in the local churches especially since the late 80's, with love and grace it could have been avoided. I've seen through a local community church how love any grace is disarming to potential problems. |
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05-29-2017 07:39 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-29-2017 06:13 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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It is difficult. And that is why we need to turn to our Lord for help all the time. I am very new to this forum, but I strongly believe this is a proof that ex-LC members still want to fellowship with existing members because of love. Although sometimes our emotion may take over and spark some flames. |
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05-29-2017 03:54 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-29-2017 03:46 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Easy, find common ground and stick to that. |
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05-29-2017 03:04 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy, how do you propose that we have fellowship with Catholics? |
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05-29-2017 03:04 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Luther initiated the Reformation, and can be considered the person God raised up to release the vision of the age. Just like God raised up the apostle Paul, and the Recovery started with Paul. All of the reformers with Luther would be considered part of the Recovery as well. |
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05-29-2017 09:47 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Where did we get the idea that one group of brothers in a city hold absolute authority over the rest of the Christians there about how they all should serve the Lord? Where do we get the idea that the Lord gives such wisdom and power so narrowly? So let's say some Christians are meeting together in a city and several of the members feel to move to the other side of the city and start a new congregation. What could be the problem with that, and who has the power and authority to try to stop them? So just because Christians feel to meet and serve in different ways does not mean they are divided by animosity. Animosity comes in, ironically, when one group tries to dictate to everyone else. Again who has the authority to object and say that believers don't have the right to follow the Lord as they feel? This is the arrogance of the LCM. They think they have that right. So whenever someone doesn't go along with them, they cook up some way of calling that person divisive. But actually it is the LCM that is showing animosity and divisiveness by insisting that things be done their way. So again, always question the premises and the definitions. What the LCM defines as "divisive" is simply anything they don't like and can't control. But it's a bogus definition and one that no one is obligated to recognize. They can live in their fantasy all they want. You don't have to listen to them and the unreasonableness they display makes my point. The only thing that troubles me about them is they victimize the naive. Other than that they are simply annoying. |
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05-29-2017 09:29 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
For example, I ask how can you espouse a lineage of MOTA's from Luther to Lee, and yet denounce the papal lineage of the Catholic church? Then you interpret that as me endorsing Catholicism and rejecting Protestantism, when the point is that the N.T. allows for no lineages. The thought of blood lineages is completely O.T. with the failed Aaronic and Davidic lines. They really only served to point us to Christ. To equate the Recovery with the Reformation has many self-serving elements for Lee. Why choose Luther as the first MOTA? Because Lee's movement was decidedly The Unique Move of God. But was Martin Luther God's unique move? Was not God working in many areas? In fact, Luther was merely elevated to prominence because of German nobility. Nearly all the other reformers, lacking secular military might, were martyred. Did that make Luther more spiritual? The first MOTA? I think not. |
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05-29-2017 09:18 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But in the late 1970s he started to assert his power and influence more and more. People like Benson and Graver took over in Texas and ran off every "dissenter," meaning everyone who was not blindly for Lee. A friend of mine was an elder and simply asked that we not follow Lee exclusively, but be more open and general as we were taught by Lee himself in the beginning. The response was to force him out. It really was like that book "Animal Farm." The leaders in the beginning promised a 'brave new world,' but in the end they treacherously terminated anyone they saw as a threat. Brothers were accused, tried in kangaroo courts and shipped out, like Boxer to the glue factory. That was the end of the dream. After the 70s the shell of being for oneness remained, but the reality of truly being for oneness was gone. All the talk about oneness just became a way, ironically, to justify separating from everyone else. I never said anything about the Catholics or ecumenicism. |
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05-29-2017 08:30 AM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Evangelical, I am grateful that we can start to go back to the Bible to dig out some truth together. I would like to share one viewpoint first. In the Bible, there are different types of "languages". Some are plain descriptive ones on events and opinions as in Acts and the epistles. The other uses lots of symbols and types as in Revelation. Understanding the later is more difficult because it depends on how we interpret the symbols and types. Hope you agree that there is an element of guessing so we oftenly cannot be 100% sure. So I started to first put away those preconceptions we learned from others on what the symbols and types mean, and go back to the texts themselves. Sometimes I find the messages are actually plain clear even without interpreting the symbols. May be there are further spiritual depths hidden in the symbols, but we should not ignore what is there in the plain text. So let's try this with your verses... Quote:
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Firstly, He might not be talking about true brothers - could be just people who claimed to be a brother. I think we have no issue purging false brothers and definitely this is not a division of the body of Christ. And even in the very unlikely case some true brothers had sinned (and probably refused to repent after fellowship), Paul named the sins very specifically. The evil persons were to be purged, isolated, or even quarantined if you like this word. There was no mention of splitting up the Corinthian Church. He was definitely not asking the true brothers who had not sinned to walk away to set up a new Church. And there is no mention of having different opinions of what a Church should be as a sin and reason for the purging. Brother, those two verses did not convince me there are right divisions. They told me the importance of oneness. Please continue to seek. |
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05-29-2017 07:37 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-29-2017 07:32 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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Yes you've declared it to be hypocrisy but I still don't get why that means the Reformation should not have happened or was not God's move as you seem to be suggesting. |
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05-29-2017 07:29 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Evangelical, No offense, but the more you go on and on about things on this board the more I realize something went very, very wrong with the LCM. I will simply say that your attitude does not reflect the hearts of the men and women who started this movement in this country. I knew many of them and lived with some of them. Those people only cared for Christ. They really did. They did not express the spirit you do. But over time, Lee took everything over and through his henchman molded the movement into his image instead of the Lord's. Many of those good brothers and sisters left, and some adapted. But sadly with many that simple pure love for the Lord and his Church was replaced by attitudes such as yours, minds and hearts so thick with knowledge and so puffed up by it that they don't even realize that their love for the Lord has been replaced by a love for their religion. I think it's very, very sad. I don't think we will every get through to you. Only God can. I just pray he does. But I would ask to you to try to focus a little less on doctrine and a little more on your love for the Lord and his people. You talk about oneness, but you don't seem like the type of person who could really be one with anyone, except someone who agrees with you on everything. Sorry, just the testimony is all wrong if you ask me. I don't get it. I don't understand your values or what you are trying to accomplish with your life. Seems so empty, so clinical, so lacking in love and life. So pointless. |
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05-29-2017 06:31 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You may not like Peter as your first pope, but you have little problem with Paul as your first MOTA. Both the Catholics and the Recovery love to trace their lineage of leaders back to the 1st century. Quote:
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05-29-2017 05:28 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Anyhow, not seeming to agree with the Reformation puts you at odds with the majority of protestant evangelicals. It's one thing to point out the wrong things with leadership, it's quite another to doubt the validity of the Reformation. Not that I have anything against Catholic people, we were even meeting together with some at one stage, they didn't really know how to read the bible as we would. The problem is the mixture, and they don't really believe in a personal relationship with God - not in the way a born again Christian would. |
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05-29-2017 04:47 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The Catholic church represented the one body of Christ. In Revelations the Catholic oneness church was typified by Thyatira, the fourth local church, one of the seven golden lampstands. Jesus Himself called for overcomers in that church, and promised to reward them. He never instructed them to start a new division. How can you declare that a "right division." Is it then not entirely hypocritical to condemn and quarantine Titus Chu for attempting to reform the local churches in his region, while extolling Martin Luther as the Minister of the Age for doing the same? Titus Chu was only "accused" of violating Recovery traditions established by Witness Lee, and not the scripture itself. At the Whistler Kangaroo Court, witnesses on behalf of LSM never presented any evidence that he should be "purged" according to your verses. |
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05-29-2017 04:29 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
According to you, the Lord's instruction to love God and love your neighbor is a horrible "mixture not good in your view." |
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05-28-2017 10:15 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
bible verses supporting division can be found here: Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. This describes a group of God's people coming out of Babylon. This verse describes separation from evil brethren: 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” |
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05-28-2017 06:20 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
What is your authoritative source of truth? Lee, Nee, Reformation or the Bible? Where did the Bible say division of the body of Christ is right? |
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05-28-2017 05:49 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
We cannot discuss this further unless you believe the Reformation was a "right division". If you believe it was a wrong division then we would be arguing for rejoining the Catholics wouldn't we? |
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05-28-2017 05:47 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God It might be nice to discuss about how we can be half for a relationship with Christ and half for religion, but that mixture is not good in my view. |
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05-28-2017 05:00 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
How do they say it? A fallacy of extremes? Has anyone else told you how difficult it is to have a conversation with you? |
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05-28-2017 04:53 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Some ex-members on this forum feel the same about the LC's as Nee did about denominations -- either build them up or tear them all down! Sounds great until one thinks about some of God's children who happen to live and serve there. (It's always easier to tear down some one else's house, isn't it?) LSM operatives happened to take that same attitude about the GLA LC's about ten years ago, deciding on their own that these LC's were all filled with leprosy, and conveniently discovered some verses in Leviticus which supposedly justified tearing them down and replastering these GLA LC's. It was really just religious zeal run amok. Thank God we are a nation of laws. Sometimes "sitting on the fence" is just another way of saying that one happens to love those on both sides. Unfortunately love is too often missing from the LSM vocabulary and leadership. |
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05-28-2017 04:23 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
1 Cor 12:12 For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ. What you said was like the eye saying it have no need of the hand. 1 Cor 12:20 But now the members are many, but the body one. 1 Cor 12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you; nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 1 Cor 12:22 But much rather the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. Quote:
Let me share with you some verses from Ezekiel 8. (BTW, don't waste time searching for explanation from RcV footnotes. There is not a single footnote from Lee. Not difficult to understand why.) 6 And He said to me, Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations that the house of Israel is committing here, that I should be far from My sanctuary? But you will yet see greater abominations. 7 Then He brought me to the entrance of the court; and I looked, and there was a hole in the wall. 8 And He said to me, Son of man, dig now through the wall. So I dug through the wall, and there was now an entrance. 9 And He said to me, Go and see the wicked abominations that they are committing here. 10 Thus I entered and looked, and there were every form of creeping thing and detestable beast and all the idols of the house of Israel, engraved on the wall all around. 11 And standing before them were seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them, each with his censer in his hand and the smell of the incense cloud went up. 12 And He said to me, Do you see, son of man, what the elders of the house of Israel do in the dark, each in the room of his engraved images? For they say, Jehovah does not see us; Jehovah has forsaken the land. Brother, dig deep into the wall of the Recovery. |
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05-28-2017 04:02 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Just to make clear that Lee and Christianity in general say more or less the same thing: Lee's book overview 'The calling of every believer is to come to the living person of Christ, leaving behind all religious forms and dead doctrines.' Gotquestions says: https://www.gotquestions.org/Christi...ationship.html Religion is “the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.” In that respect, Christianity can be classified as a religion. However, practically speaking, Christianity has a key difference that separates it from other belief systems that are considered religions. That difference is relationship. In that regard, Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship that God has established with His children. Recommended Resource: Checklist Jesus: A Journey from Religion to Relationship by Jeremy Walker In Christian bookstores, I'm sure we will find a number of books emphasizing relationship over religion. |
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05-28-2017 03:30 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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But James is not defining religion, he is talking about proper religious service. Let me remind you, that unless you are a Catholic, the gospel and Christian story is based upon the 4 gospels and Paul's writings, not James. The Catholic gospel revolves around the book of James, concerning good works for getting us to heaven, and practical service. Quote:
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05-28-2017 03:13 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I don't think the authors of that apologetic ministry would agree with your views on religion not being a problem: Most religion, theistic or otherwise, is man-centered. Any relationship with God is based on man’s works. If you disagree with this then clearly you don't believe that Christianity is a personal relationship with God and is not a religion. We cannot get to heaven by belonging or following to a religion, even the very best Christianity can't save us. |
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05-28-2017 03:09 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-28-2017 09:18 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Like I said, if you guys were half as interested in rooting out the evil in your own group as you were in pointing out the evil elsewhere this board would be unnecessary. |
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05-28-2017 09:13 AM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-28-2017 09:12 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
(1) How is my definition of "religion" from James 1.27 taken out of context? (2) How does "religion" differ from "religious service?" A. If religious service is interpreted as a meeting or church service,(3) How does Ellicot's comments about this verse alter our discussion? He cites the prior verse concerning "not bridling his tongue and deceiving his own heart." Couldn't we say that this verse (1.26) characterizes James entire epistle concerning the hypocrisies of a double-souled man? In his footnote for this verse, Lee says "religious is from the Greek word threskos meaning ceremonial service and worship to God (implying the fear of God.)" We could thus rightly translate this verse to be, "If anyone considers himself a worshiper of God." I think that captures the sense of the original. So James is here addressing the attitudes of religious people who worship God, especially those religious folks whose version of religion conflicts with God's love and holy nature. James provides spiritual feedback for those who have gone off course. He provides a sober warning to every child of God. His "faith tests" are sorely needed in TLR. Sadly the message of the epistle of James has been grossly dismissed by the leadership at LSM, who need it most. |
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05-28-2017 07:03 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
W. Lee made his ministry out of the attack on RELIGION. Read his book Christ v. Religion. He clearly states that religion has been the enemy of God for ... ever. He claims that religion killed the Lord Jesus. But the Bible never says that. The Bible identifies characteristics of the heart such as unbelief, hypocrisy, stubbornness, hardness of heart, un-repentance, man-pleasing, loving the glory of men, idolatry, etc. as the ingredients that oppose God and His people. The Bible has long lists of these evils in verses like Mark 7.20-23 or Galatians 5.19-21. Religion is never mentioned in one of these lists. That is Lee's construct. He widened the Biblical definitions of evil to include all those outside of his little club. He called them all religion, claiming that all religion was against God and Christ. But the Bible never claims this. In fact James defines religion in 1.27: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained." In other words, James defines religion as keeping one's self from evil and devoting one's life to good works. I could list a thousand verses in the Bible which support James' definition of religion as positive. Religion is not our faith, but is the Christian's proper living in response to a healthy faith. Religion is not our personal relationship with the Lord, but is the fruit of our personal relationship with the Lord. Religion describes the daily living of a child of God walking in newness of life. There is nothing about religion which is evil of itself, as the Lord told the Pharisees, the brood of vipers, "The good man out of the good treasure brings forth good things, and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things." (Mt 12.35) It is Lee's pitifully poor exposition of scripture which makes religion evil, not the Bible. Lee used this self-serving construct to isolate his movement from the Body of Christ. Perhaps it's now time for you to reconsider your views about religion in general and about the greater body of Christ. |
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05-27-2017 10:56 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
For example, on the one hand, we wish to save Catholics, and we may meet Catholics at any occasion, which is being "in the world", but on the other hand, that doesn't mean we should join their mass, that would be "conforming to the world". We would not wish to close the gap between our Lord's Table meeting and the Catholic mass, for example, we would want to widen that gap. We would also want to widen the gap between their practice of praying to idols. Similarly, to save sinners, we do not participate in their sin, so as to save them, yet we happily meet with them otherwise. In the whole history of the Reformation, Luther et al, sought to "widen the gap" with the Catholic church. So most protestant denominations today are already "gap wideners". In fact it could be said that the Lutheran and Anglican churches are closer to the Catholic than say a baptist church, because they retain the liturgical nature and structure of the Catholics. And over history, the "gap widening" has continued as more and more denominations developed, with the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the brethren, the community and house churches etc. This is my issue with the ecumenical movement - I think it is sort of hypocritical for individuals in free groups or baptist churches who wish to "close the gap" with Catholics, when the very church they are in exists to keep that gap as wide as possible. If we want to "close the gap" with Catholics then why not just join them. |
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05-27-2017 09:49 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
John 17:15 (RcV) I do not ask that You would take them out of the world, but that You would keep them out of the hands of the evil one. Romans 12:2 (RcV) And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect. Romans 12:2 (NIV) Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. |
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05-27-2017 09:28 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
For example, in preaching the gospel, we wish to save sinners in the world, and we also wish to distance ourself from the world as much as possible. It is not hypocrisy to want to distance ourself from the world the sinners live in, while wishing to save them. I don't see that as hypocrisy. That's how it's meant to be. So, in regards to the Church, we wish to distance ourselves from the evil system utilized by Satan, yet we wish to save the people in the denominations. I think it is fairly clear that when we speak of the evil we are not referring to the genuine believers but the evil system, as this quote shows: "In every denomination, including the Roman Catholic Church, there are real, saved Christians. They are God's people belonging to the Lord. But the organization of the denominations in which they are is not of God. The denominational organizations have been utilized by Satan to set up his satanic system to destroy God's economy of the proper church life." Witness Lee, "Message Thirty-Four" in The Life-Study of Genesis (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1987), Vol. 1, p. 464 |
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05-27-2017 09:14 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Don't you see the hypocrisy there? "Dear brothers in Christianity, we do love you. We are slapping at your face just to wake you up and let you know you are living in the present evil age. Oh, you need some help? Sorry, I am busy widening the gap between you and us." Never forget why Jesus became a man and went among sinners in the first place. Dear Evangelical, I think you can do better than using stock answers and tweaking terminology. Think hard, pray hard. Open your heart, turn to your spirit. Aim not at winning an argument. Aim at knowing our Lord and winning life. Care less about whether the teachings offend you, care about whether they offend God. P.S. Be careful when you say the outlines are just "stock standard beliefs". The leading brothers say they are not just cut and paste from old standard messages. They are supposed to shed new light in every training. You might hurt their feelings. |
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05-27-2017 08:34 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This concept of religion versus personal relationship is well known in Christianity. Even Catholics have adopted this idea of personal relationship versus religion. For example see here: https://www.gotquestions.org/Christi...ationship.html practically speaking, Christianity has a key difference that separates it from other belief systems that are considered religions. That difference is relationship. Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship that God Christianity is not about signing up for a religion. It is just generally accepted that Christianity is about a relationship with God not a religion. It has nothing to do with the verse in James, that's taken out of context. In fact, it's a good one for Catholics to use as it indicates that pure religion is to adopt a works-based theology. We can add to it that "faith without works is dead". And there we can construct what is essentially the Catholic view. If you want further proof that your interpretation is out of context, consider Ellicotts bible commentary on this verse: Pure religion . . .—It will be observed that by religion here is meant religious service. No one word can express this obvious interpretation of the original, taken as it must be in completion of the verse before; and certainly “religion” in its ordinary sense will not convey the right idea. In other words, the verse is about religious service, and not a black and white definition of religion. You seem to have misinterpreted the word "religion" to mean religion in general, and so you do not have "the right idea". So the verse should be interpreted as: "pure religious service is....." not as you have "religion is..." |
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05-27-2017 08:32 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Read Revelations. The Lord calls overcomers in all seven churches. The rest of Revelations also speaks of escaping the evil age. |
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05-27-2017 08:18 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I'm glad you agree about deliverance from this present evil age. The next question is where is it to be found. The answer to that is, in the denominations. I don't think joining the denominations will help anyone escape from the evil age. If the TRL is part of it also, then where should we go? A good community church or house church? |
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05-27-2017 07:14 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The LCM has a history of corruption, duplicity, abuse, finagling, cover-ups, hiding history, bullying, plotting, lying, double-talk, financial hanky-panky, even lawbreaking and various other nauseating instances of hypocrisy that would cause the paint to peel on Watchman Nee's coffin. So in the interest of "balance" and "fairness," where is the LCM training outline on that fact, Mr. Fair and Balanced? Good Lord, you must think we are idiots. |
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05-27-2017 06:35 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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Are they really pursuing Christ? Or are they pursuing Lee's teachings and practices? |
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05-27-2017 05:01 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Huh? I got some of this news from the Orange County Register. |
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05-27-2017 04:17 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
There are plenty of times when Jesus badmouthed the religionists. In fact a number of the parables are thinly veiled slights and mockeries of them, to the amusement of his lowly audience. I don't think we can get through genuine Christianity without exposing and saying something about the false. But in Witness Lee's ministry this is always in view of something more positive. "these things are dark, but here is light". Rather than criticizing for the sake of criticizing. I think the topic outline is not about criticizing or badmouthing but about our deliverance, note the second point in the outline - "We need to realize how much we need to be delivered from the influence of religion in the present evil age." If you don't think there's a need to be delivered from the "present evil age" or that this age is evil, then you may have been deceived by the anti-Christ spirit. I would encourage you to get back into fellowship with your brothers and sisters in the Recovery who are pursuing Christ. |
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05-27-2017 01:33 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Careful, Ohio. My dear friend Drake will accuse you of "slander." |
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05-27-2017 08:44 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Have they not read the scripture, "with what judgment you judge you will be judged." (Matt 7.2)??? The writers of this outline have become blind and proud Laodiceans, having not a clue that the leadership in the Recovery itself is far worse than those they judge. They are the present evil age!!!
Many of us left because LSM had become this "present evil age," and they have the nerve to condemn every other Christian in the body of Christ for far worse crimes than they have committed. (Romans 2.1-4) |
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05-27-2017 08:22 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God The whole problem with the LCM can be summarized as mistaking self-righteousness for holiness. It's the same disease that afflicted the Pharisees. The Pharisees were absolutely strict in their interpretation of Scripture, and from one view you have to say they were "accurate." The problem is their spirit was all wrong. They missed the whole point. The same thing can be said about the LCM. They pride themselves on their strict interpretation of the Scriptures and, like the Pharisees, from one point of view they can be said to be "accurate." But their self-righteousness gives away that they are missing some important points. Perhaps if they focused on that corruption they would have less time or even inclination to condemn everyone else. |
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05-27-2017 08:06 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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If the LCM was half as interested in rooting out its own corruption as it was with pointing out "Christianity's" corruption there would be no need for this board. It's a classic example on a movement-wide scale of having a log in one's own eye and pointing out the splinter in everyone else's eyes. I realized this can work both ways. Some of us are pretty demanding of the LCM. (But they should be able to take it. After all, they are "God's best," so they should have high standards. ) But I can testify that I pray seriously to the Lord to guide what I write and to point out any hypocrisy in me. Having been in the LCM, I doubt they have the same care toward those they accuse with their "stock standard" condemnations. What's most irksome is the way the LCM conveniently contrasts themselves with everyone else. They are the good guys, everyone else are the bad guys. Way, way too easy and nowhere near accurate. That outline that little brother posted could be paraphrased by this parable of Jesus's: "The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.....' |
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05-27-2017 05:12 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Ten years ago in the Great Lakes Area we watched them operate and saw their true colors. Their teachings on the oneness of the body were merely a farsical ruse to deceive the simple-minded. I watched them come into many LC's with their legal operatives, create wedges between the saints, instructing them to rebel against local eldership, work with dissidemts to file lawsuits, and in the end destroy the building work of God. Hundreds of godly men can attest to this. One day LSM's wood, hay, and stubble works will be burnt. |
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05-27-2017 01:46 AM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And thank you for admitting 1% of the LSM outlines can be about badmouthing. That could be a good start for you. I am quite sure you are familiar with 1Cor 5:6 "...Do you not know that a little leaven (1%?) leavens the whole lump? " Do you have some specific examples to share? |
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05-27-2017 12:44 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Thankyou for your input brother. I hope others here (Ohio!) note what you said about not forcing people to stay. Ohio's over-the-top post here: LSM's "oneness" is no different than Rome's use of force during its power days. It's the oneness enforced by the edge of a sword. Personally I see nothing offensive in the outline posts. When I was in denominations I was not offended by those statements either, because there was an element of truth in them. They are stock standard beliefs in the Recovery and reading material. The far majority of material in the LSM outlines, 99%, is not about badmouthing denominations at all. It is very much focused on Christ and revelation. Statements about denominations are used to show and contrast the difference between the religious Christianity and genuine Christianity. There is often a positive focus, for example, we would not say "what this denomination does is wrong" for the sake of it, we might say "isn't it a shame this denomination does not preach the gospel more or use the Bible more". In my mind it is balanced. There is also positive things said about denominations too. I have been involved in a number of discussions where what some denominations are doing is regarded positively, or one aspect of them is said to be "very good". |
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05-26-2017 08:01 PM | ||||||||
A little brother |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
When you say the "attitude of the church today", I believe you are talking about the Recovery. If it is, let me remind you of the outlines in the training for elders and responsible ones in Fall 2015, just in case you weren't paying attention. No, it is not forcing people to stay for argument sake. But the attitude of the Recovery hasn't change a bit, if not getting worse. (For other members here, sorry that I have to pollute this space with some of the LCM outlines) C. For Paul, the present evil age was Judaism; for us today, the present evil age is deformed and degraded Christianity—1:4; Matt. 13:31-33, 44-46: 1. We need to realize how much we need to be delivered from the influence of religion in the present evil age. 2. The church is the living Body of Christ, but what surrounds us today is a religion—deformed and degraded Christianity—full of traditions, organizations, performances, and falsehoods; the Lord cannot accomplish His purpose in this situation. 3. We all need to be delivered from religion, from Christianity as the present evil age; we must come out of Babylon, and Babylon must come out of us—Ezra 1; Rev. 18:4; Zech. 3:1-4. 4. The history among us in the Lord’s recovery has been a history of coming out of Christianity—a history of coming out of and being outside of the present evil age—Gal. 1:4; Heb. 13:12-13. 5. Because the Lord’s recovery is different from today’s religion—deformed and degraded Christianity—it is impossible for there to be reconciliation between the recovery and Christianity—Matt. 13:31-33, 44-46; Rev. 18:4; 19:1-3, 7-9. 6. We need to maintain the gap between the Lord’s recovery and Christianity; the wider this gap is, the better, because it is a gap between us and the present evil age—Gal. 1:4. |
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05-26-2017 06:37 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Perhaps the general attitude of LCM believers is more tolerant today. But that just makes the point that the previous attitude, which has been witnessed to by example after example, was wrong and should be publicly denounced. And I don't believe the LCM leadership has really repented from this attitude. Clearly Benson hasn't. And why a clearly crazy person like him is still allowed to be in leadership of that movement is beyond me. It reminds me of the Catholic church. When I was a kid the attitude of Catholics was that you had to be a Catholic to "go to heaven." Most Catholics don't believe that any more, but the leadership has yet to fully denounce that attitude. Why? I'm sure the reasons aren't noble. They probably fear a rash of lawsuits. Which I'm sure the LCM leaders do as well. LCM leaders were plain wrong to pressure people to stay there, and if they don't realize that then they are plain stupid. Not an attractive choice for them, but unfortunately the only viable ones. |
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05-26-2017 06:28 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And UntoHim plainly was not saying what you accused him of. What UntoHim said was that no membership in any church or lack thereof trumps the blood of Christ. There is absolutely no teaching or hint of teaching in the NT that suggests that a Christian need fear because he doesn't belong to a church founded by a person who claims that membership in his churches is required for sanctification. That's what Lee taught and that's what Benson taught and it is a doctrine of demons. Period. Drake, when I challenge you to be better I'm paying you a compliment, not putting you down. You guys can do better. Life is too short to defend Benson's transparently indefensible BS. Find a better role model than that nut. Seriously. |
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05-26-2017 05:06 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And you are in denial like Igzy said, because you have witnessed many rotten things done by your leadership over the years, and yet you keep your head buried in the sand, as if pretending not to know the truth somehow justifies you. |
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05-26-2017 04:55 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Yes, along with man-pleasing, endorsing unrighteousness, judging others. |
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05-26-2017 03:29 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God No exceptions Igzy. |
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05-26-2017 03:19 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I am not trolling. I have no interest in that, But seriously, you accuse me of being naive, ignorant, and in denial in a single post, lambast evangelical saying demeaning things and then when we push back you accuse him and I of trolling. Sorry Igzy, trolling is attacking people, that is what the group thinkers here do on a daily basis. That is what you and many others here engaged in. UntoHim uses the precious blood of Christ to justify his berating and belittling of other christians as if all is well.. He is clean. That is how read it. I am challenging his idea but berating him as he does so frequently to others. That thinking on UntoHims part, my friend, is a tragedy.... and it is not trolling to challenge it. Drake |
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05-26-2017 03:10 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God I think every genuine Christian would be concerned if a person wants to leave their church. Whether Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Presbyterian, Mormon, JW, or the Recovery. I think Catholic and Orthodox believe if a person leaves their church they are in danger of going to hell because it is "falling away from the faith", and they associate the church with the faith. Leaving the church is leaving "the faith". Unlike them we do not consider "the church" and "the faith" to be the same thing, because "the faith" is not built upon this idea that we must hold to a certain apostolic tradition, so it is possible for a person to leave the church and still be saved. That is one point of difference. I think some members here who have not been with the Recovery for "30 or 40 years" are not taking what current members (Drake, myself) are saying seriously. Which really proves they are arguing from perceptions and encounters they had in the past, rather than how things are today. If I was to characterize the attitude of the church today I would say it leaned towards the side of indifference rather than the side of forcing me to stay against my will. Before I joined the Recovery I could come and go as I pleased and no one said anything. It is still the same today. A number of people come and go, even people who have been with the Recovery longer than I. The general attitude of most people is one of "where are you?" and "how are you doing?" rather than "you must not leave us, if you leave us something bad will happen to you". I have never encountered that attitude personally. |
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05-26-2017 01:40 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Drake, now you are starting to troll. Please stop. You are only hurting yourself and your cause. |
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05-26-2017 01:33 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God -2 Apparently not, Igzy. -3 Untohim, so that is the underlying problem. You do not fear the judgement seat of Christ. Anything you say has no consequences because you are blood-washed. What a tragedy. Drake |
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05-26-2017 01:31 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-26-2017 01:15 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Alright. We get it. Thank you. |
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05-26-2017 01:12 PM | ||||||||
UntoHim |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery” (The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph) Yes, I do have this quote on speed dial, and yes it really comes in handy when some Local Churcher says something like you have...and then tries to walk it back with a blitzkrieg of Local Church "yeah, buts" and "out of context"s and "but not in the godhead" laughable garbage. According to brother Phillips the ONLY PLACE ON EARTH for the "process of sanctification" to "go forward" is in the Local Church of Lee movement. I know Benson. He said this because he means it. He means it because he believes it. He believes it because he sat at the feet of Witness Lee for decades. And what Benson has stated here reflects this notion that if you leave the Local Church of Witness Lee, at the very least, your spiritual life is over, and at worst you better be watching for that Steinway to fall on your head...or if you're really lucky it will only be a Wurlitzer Yes, Witness Lee believed and taught that his ministry and his movement were "the Unique Move of God". He said it in soooo many words, and there is a very good reason why most former LC members will admit that they were afraid to leave because of fear....not fear of God but fear of man. - |
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05-26-2017 01:09 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God -1 Right. ...... every post, every word, every action. |
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05-26-2017 01:09 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God every McDonald's french fry... |
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05-26-2017 12:47 PM | ||||||||
UntoHim |
Re: The Unique Move of God Right, and the light we will be judged by is the light revealed in the Word of God, and NOT the "ministry" of any man, or the religious jargon of the movement produced from the person and work of any man. Remember, the Lord Jesus proclaimed "My reward is with ME". (Rev 22:12) Our reward is solely and firmly in the hands of the One who died for us and saved us from our sins, and NOT in the filthy, unrighteous hands of any self-proclaimed "one apostle with the one ministry for the age", or any of his followers who believe and propagate such myths. - |
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05-26-2017 12:27 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Yes. Then, we will be judged in His light...openly...... every post, every word, every action. |
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05-26-2017 10:48 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God His light is already here. |
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05-26-2017 10:36 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy)"When we stand before the Lord..." We agree on that and we also agree that there will be some unexpected surprises. Everything will be judged in His light. Drake |
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05-26-2017 08:06 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
A better analogy would be telling your kids they can't leave the house because the boogy-man will eat them alive once they step off the front porch. That's the "care" of a parent who has no business being a parent. And as I said, by now the LCM should know better. They should make a public apology, a promise to change policy and other reparations. At this point you guys are just in denial. Time to fess up. You'll feel better, trust me. |
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05-26-2017 07:54 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Good intentions only take one so far. By now the evidence has been in for years and the LCM is conveniently ignoring it. So there is no longer any excuse. At this point it's a matter of being in denial. I doubt any objective witnesses buy your story either. So I guess you can continue kidding yourselves if you want to. What bothers me is that it just sets up another innocent who hasn't read this board to be damaged. That should bother you too. And I can't imagine why it doesn't. Let me reiterate. God cares about people: not systems, not institutions, not moves. He's the one who left the flock to save one lamb. And I'm glad he did so to save this one. And you know what he said he would do to those of us who hurt one of his "little ones" (Matt 18:6). That's a warning we ALL need to take seriously. |
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05-25-2017 08:31 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God I wasn't in the LC 30-40 years ago. But I don't think things are like that now. |
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05-25-2017 07:08 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Control and manipulation also goes both ways, telling members what to do and what not to do. Reminds me of Lee speaking from the podium, "What me, I never control anyone, I can't even control a mosquito." Typical LC doublespeak. I was only in the LC a short time, when the "Young Galilean" movement swept thru the LC's. What chaos! I can't imagine how many young people were ruined in that nonsense. One older brother told me directly, "You are in the Lord's army now, you will be told where you will move to." Forget about praying, seeking the Lord, or other such spirituality from "fallen Christianity." |
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05-25-2017 06:37 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
there is a big difference between telling someone, say your child, "you can't leave the house", versus "don't go onto the road because you might get hit by a car". I am yet to see anyone be restrained or verbally or physically told they cannot leave church. |
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05-25-2017 04:58 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
As I was researching Brethren history in the years before my exodus, I discovered from the historian Wm. B. Neatby how Brethren Exclusives regularly used British "Bug Bears" to manipulate their members. That helped to expose the whole scheme to me. Then I read all the sordid details, long hidden from LC membership, about Philip Lee at LSM, and worse, what his Dad did to destroy the reputations of those who spoke their conscience on behalf of God's children. That completely released me from the Chinese "Boogey Man." This is one area of Lee history that Drake refuses to address. . |
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05-25-2017 03:40 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy) "I really don't know what to make of your claims that you never heard anyone say that leaving the LCM was wrong" Hi Igzy. There is a difference between telling someone they can't leave a group and telling them they are wrong to leave a group. One could be abuse, the other could just be concern for your soul. In this thread I have sincerely tried to understand your view and how you might interpret things differently than I do. What were the differences in our experience, was it something we did differently, events, our circumstances, our backgrounds, or something neither of us have realized? At this point, I think we experienced pretty much the same things. You heard them one way, I heard them differently. You interpret them as someone brainwashing you, I interpret them as someone's caring and sharing the convictions of their beliefs. Same speaking, different interpretation. In summary, we will likely never gain a full understanding of this matter or each other beyond what we have shared here. Still, I do not recognize the "dreadful" church life you describe, the abuse you claim, the brainwashing, etc. Rather, in my experience, through all these decades the church life has been a sweet visitation from the Lord. The brothers and sisters really are family in the richest sense. The leading brothers are servants dedicated to ministering Christ into others. In their speaking the Word has never been clearer, more open, or invigorating to me. The Spirit is guiding and directing and collaborating with a governing vision. Truth and Life are prevailing. Struggles? Certainly. Grace to overcome? Abundantly. Is that unique? In my experience it is... absolutely. To you, it is not. Thanks for the dialogue. Drake |
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05-25-2017 02:30 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The funny thing is I did hear a leading brother say those very words. "You can't leave the church!" Beam me up, Mr. Mota! |
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05-25-2017 01:14 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
Duh! Things were a little more subtle than that, don't you think? Aren't you just lawyering here? LC equivocations really make me nauseous. Have you never heard the awful stories about those who left the LC? Got cancer of the throat for objecting to WL's ground of locality? Warnings about never going on with the Lord after leaving? Unable to be sanctified outside the recovery? Miss the Lord's blessings? Sure you did! |
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05-25-2017 01:00 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
Some lost sheep gets saved after class with no one around other than her classmate, and it gets treated as nothing because the classmate is in "them denominations." But what does the scripture say? "There will be more joy in heaven over one sinner repenting, than over the 99 righteous ones at the training who have no need of repentance." . |
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05-25-2017 11:48 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
That is the point that is relevant to this thread, not any other difficulty I had with the LCM. I really don't know what to make of your claims that you never heard anyone say that leaving the LCM was wrong. That is like a long-time conservative claiming he didn't know conservatives wanted to cut taxes. Your naivete, if that's what it really is, is off the charts. Let's be clear that I hear this taught time and time again, from the top to the bottom of the group. There can be no mistaking. Others here can bear witness to this too. I heard Lee teach it. I heard him say that no one who has left the movement has been able to go on with the Lord. He said no one who left has become a "prevailing Christian," whatever that is. Like he would know. Did he have a magic mirror back in the 1970s so he could look into everyone's life and see what happened to them? I heard Benson teach it. He said there was no way to go on with the Lord and nothing of value outside the movement. To leave the LCM was to leave "God's best." That was the mantra. How would we know what was God's best anyway? I heard it taught by our elders. One said, "If any of us had a way to leave, we would. But the Lord won't let us." His statement was meant to drive home the idea that though the movement was hard, there was no legitimate way to leave. This was the mentality that was drilled into us and this was the mentality we lived with. When I told an elder I was close to I was leaving he accused me of going against my conscience. Stories were told about people that left the movement and who died or suffered horrible tragedies, and the meaning was clear: Leave at the risk to your body and soul. And I heard it many other ways. There can be no mistaking about it. I don't know what planet you've been on for the last 40 years, but either you are in denial or incredibly ignorant. I don't know how else to say it. But your claim that the LCM did not teach that leaving the movement was effectively rebellion against God is about as ignorant a statement as I've ever heard by someone who claimed to know what he is talking about. It was this indoctrination that caused me to suffer while I was in and after I left. It was wrong and it was abusive, as you have already acknowledged. The LCM needs to officially and publicly repent from this idea and offer to pay for counseling and other reparations for anyone hurt by it. |
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05-25-2017 11:37 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The answer could be that one had his eyes and nose opened to the fog and garlic in which he had been befuddled for years, and realizing how others who had gone through the same awakening were treated by the leadership, could only be angry for at least some period of time. You can reply with some kind of psychological mumbo jumbo about how anger is your own fault, or fear is not real therefore should be ignored. But when you have been lead to believe that your eternal existence hinges on remaining true to something you are not completely sold on, what do you expect? And when it is discovered that it was a lie, what do you expect? At least no one has gone postal over it yet. Not condoning such a thing. But the kind of chicanery that has gone on to fool God-fearing people into remaining in bondage to lies could be problematic if the right (or rather wrong) person suddenly wakes up to this kind of shenanigans. As for the ones staying behind being "grateful as having received a great spiritual treasure as from the Lord Himself," I can only say that if they believe it is from the Lord, that is how they would describe it. Doesn't make it actually from the Lord. Funny how the things that are treasured as from the Lord are things that make the LRC faithful be special Christians with special favor bestowed on them by God. Still looking for any evidence that there is such a thing. But it is part of the arsenal that keeps people from taking a second look at the problems. It is human nature to not want to accept that you can be wrong, and also to become snared in anything that grants special status — no matter how insignificant or even illusory that status is. |
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05-25-2017 11:24 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Did you think that saying "ultimate" meant the only move of God? It means one of his moves that is more than any other. And that would mean that God segments his move into marginal moves, OK moves, pretty good moves, really good moves, and ultimate moves. Or it is a ruse dreamed up by people like you, Drake, Benson, Ray, Ron, Kerry, etc., for the purpose of creating the presumption of one move that invalidates all others as having anything to do with God. Since I don't see evidence that there is such a thing, and I don't see God as going around stratifying his "moves" in the manner I stated earlier, this can only be described as a sectarian non-starter. The answer is "yes." He moves through his people in the many and multifarious ways that they take their calling and move through life and society. And occasionally he might do something miraculous and grand, like open up a hole in the earth and swallow up a bunch of idol worshippers. But we haven't seen much of that in a few centuries. Not saying he can't. Or that he hasn't, even if on a less grand and recorded scale. But it hasn't been clearly his direct doing for such a purpose. |
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05-25-2017 11:22 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-24-2017 08:32 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy) "But I don't know what you are getting at with these questions. Perhaps you are trying to help me? That's fine. I have nothing to hide, fear or prove now, and I don't mind answering questions. But I'd like the discussion to be relevant to the subject matter. " HI Igzy, Lets clear the air on that. I am not trying to help you, neither do I seek to hurt you. I am trying to understand why two brothers who were likely contemporaries, heard the same messages, experienced the same church life, perhaps similar corporate living arrangements, may have even broke bread together could have interpreted the whole affair 180 degrees differently. Eventually one leaving bitter and angry convinced that the Devil tricked him into wasting so many years while the other grateful as having received a great spiritual treasure as from the Lord Himself! You describe vision like a doctrine or some interpretation of scripture . That is one major difference between our experiences as relates to vision. I can only describe my experience as a type of visitation from the Lord. That guided me in many times and ways as it still does. Another difference in our experiences is I never felt I could live up to the standard that others around me were so I never tried, never got my hopes up and didn't get anyone else's hopes up. If it wasn't the Lord in me it wasn't going to happen. You describe a pressure to aspire to a good brother standard and dreaded the arduous life of trying to live up to it. In this we shared a common realization , that is, achieving that standard is not possible using our own efforts. You tried with great effort, I didnt so much. Igzy)"So I like for you to try to respond to my whole argument that telling people they can't leave your group is an abusive practice. And also tell me: Who is responsible for my suffering? Just me? I accept some responsibility. I should have gotten Christian counseling. But I expect you are thinking that, well, if I hadn't had left I wouldn't have suffered. I have never heard anyone at anytime ever tell anyone else that they can't leave the church life. Holding people, verbally or physically, against their will would be an abusive practice. People came and went all the time, sometimes several times. Also, I would not tell you that your suffering would have been alleviated had you stayed. On the contrary, from your description you would've continued to suffer. If we ever had had the opportunity to fellowship back then I would have pleaded with you to forget trying to live up to that standard no matter who established it, you or someone else, and rather to just pray and enjoy the Lord together. Under the circumstances, you might have misunderstood my intentions even at that. Drake |
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05-24-2017 08:12 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Who is ready to discuss the ultimate move of God? Do we have the ultimate move of God among us? Or are our efforts merely organizational ones, without much prayer or the Word of God? Does God have a way to move ? In my evangelistic efforts recently, we encountered a man who was told they could not do anything without the pastor's approval. Clearly, this is not a situation in which God has a way to move, because the organization and tradition stands in the way. However we presented to him the truth that God just wants all Christians to be priests, and the priesthood of all the believers. Now he is reconsidering staying with that church, and we have shown him a better way, in line with God's ultimate move which is simply to gain people for Christ. There are not many Christian groups that just want to gain people for Christ and not for religion. Many wish to employ people in their organizational religious programs or to fill the seats and the pockets of the church. I have noticed there are two categories of people - evangelistic people, driven by the great Commission, who seek to gain individuals for Christ, but once converts are made, have no way to bring them to the church. -People who seek to gain people for a particular denomination, organization, method or program - may bring many people to church, but no real conversion experience, not necessarily saved or spiritually growing. |
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05-24-2017 07:50 PM | ||||||||
JJ |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-24-2017 01:33 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I remember Titus talking about "you've broken our family tradition!" "Way?" "Tradition?" What if God tells you to take another way, or leave the family tradition? Oops, that means you've left "the vision" One man's vision is another's dogma, and who can tell the difference? Well, we may not be able to tell, but we can know when either becomes divisive and sectarian. And that's what the Lord tells us to avoid. That's why generality and receiving are the best path. I remember when the LCM once taught that... long, long ago. |
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05-24-2017 12:51 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-24-2017 11:27 AM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Politically incorrect as it may seem, the brother was speaking honestly. Many in the local churches echo the same sentiment, but would lack the boldness to utter it. In LC speak, oneness is a word containing a double meaning. On one hand as Christians being one according to our lives as Christians in Christ, but in the local churches oneness being one with the blended co-workers, being one for Witness Lee's ministry, and to a lesser extent Watchman Nee's ministry. |
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05-23-2017 06:55 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Well, it seems that the verdict is in and none of our dear LCM apologists have been able to or have really tried to defend the idea that "the Recovery" (aka the movement started by Nee and Lee) is the "unique move of God." Presumably they will continue to believe it even though they cannot or will not defend the idea publicly. Again, this is typical of the most outrageous of Lee's teachings. LCMers just expect everyone to be smart enough to swallow such ideas whole, even though they wither under public scrutiny. I guess we're all too stupid to understand how true these indefensible ideas are. So much for sarcasm. Yes, God has a unique move. After all, there is one unique God. The move is his. Only he really knows what he is doing. The LCM is not wrong to say God's goal is to build the Church. Where they go wrong is insisting "building the Church" equates to their definition of it and of the details of how it must be carried out. For example, the LCM decided the Church cannot be built without local churches (just like theirs) where members are set free to "function" (meaning speak in meetings). The problem is after 50+ years of this exercise there is no evidence that it has lent to the "building of the Church" to any greater degree than the various other means of building each other that believers employ. There is no evidence of superior spiritual maturity in the LCM over what you see among groups of serious Christians in other congregations. In short there is NO evidence that this movement is the "unique move of God." And they've had over 50 years to prove this grandiose and outrageous claim. So the mantra has grow quite tiresome, and the damage it has done had grown even more tiresome. They must be tired of it too, given the lethargic response in this thread. I've always felt the LCM had something to offer. Imagine that instead of holing up and being greedy and proud about what the Lord had given them, they had, as it says in Ecclesiastes 11, "cast their bread upon water." Good and helpful ideas like calling on the Lord, pray-reading, the human spirit, simple Christian community, the priesthood of believers and so forth (before they became so stamped with LCM proprietary spin that they lost their general appeal) could have truly helped millions of believers. But instead they became greedy. They wanted to build their kingdom more than they wanted to help strangers. They insisted that they and they alone were qualified to transport the Ark. And, because of their arrogance, they became irrelevant. Ideas which were so fresh and appealing in their general essence 50 years ago have found their way into the Christian mainstream by other paths. God will always find a way. But how different it could have been, if only for a little humility. |
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05-23-2017 03:18 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
For example, under "THE REFORMATION" it says: What the Reformers failed to do was to recover the corporate dimension of the believing priesthood. In other words, the Reformers only recovered the priesthood of the believer It even quotes LSM publications: For more details, see The Normal Christian Church Life by Watchman Nee (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1980). God's Plan of Redemption (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1999) |
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05-23-2017 01:04 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
By the time I left, oneness came to mean one thing -- what was your relationship with W. Lee and LSM?!? This was no accident. It was by design. It was Lee's design for his little kingdom. Those who resisted his "plans" were asked to leave. Those who refused to leave, had their reputations destroyed first, and then "they decided" it was best for them to leave. According to their peddled brand of oneness, all other relationships in your life were insignificant, expendable, and secondary to your relationship with "the ministry." |
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05-23-2017 12:48 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Say a brother with a contrary point of view offers to meet with DCP representatives face to face and they become conveniently unavailable, it gives the impression they're going into a defensive bunker mode. (i.e. we're not going to entertain this brother nor give him any ground of dialogue.) By comparison, I've met with a community church before you can go up to a pastor and critique his sermon; positive or negative without any repercussions. No shunning. No exclusions. |
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05-23-2017 12:35 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-23-2017 12:04 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-23-2017 11:34 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
We do not declare others to be "non church" or "defective church." That is left to your group. You think that you can be both in disagreement and dismissive of all others, and yet claim the high road? Hard to do from the gutter. The rest of your response is not worthy of a response. One book does not make your point. It only proves that there is a tendency in man to look for reasons to think more highly of their own thoughts than of anyone else's. And house churches are not the answer to the problem. They are just a prone to following divisive ways as any other. The only difference is that they do not at least band together with other similars. Instead they just go it alone. And they cease to have a sufficient core of people with which to vet the latest idea. The craziest ideas of recent times came from people who were leaders of independent groups, not the denominations. The "Love Wins" dismissal of Hell was from an independent free group. No connection to others. No one to stand up and critique it. And that is not the only example. Meanwhile, whether assemblies are completely independent, somewhat independent, or grouped together, they are only as divisive relative to others as they have tendency to declare others to be less than "church" or otherwise deficient for not being like them. That would be your group. Not he denominations. Not so many of those free groups or house churches. But why are there house churches? Because they don't like larger groups? Because they want to have truly local control over all aspects of their belief? None of these are simply bad. But none of these are simply good. |
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05-23-2017 07:46 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Here is an amazing message about oneness as it relates to marriage. http://www.acfellowship.org/media/me...your-marriage/ |
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05-23-2017 07:29 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Oneness is like love. You don't go around condemning people for not being loving. You love. Likewise, you don't go around condemning people for not being one. You be one. Oneness means you receive and accept other believers, in spite of differences. It means you go the extra mile to receive and to be a peacemaker. It doesn't mean you squat on the local ground, condemn everyone else and tell them if they don't join you they are off. That kind of naivete possibly could have been excused 50 years ago, when the idea of locality was new and untested in America. But half a century later the verdict is in. Locality as practiced by the LCM is just another way a group defines itself with a superficially scriptural idea and uses that idea to divide itself from others--like the 7th Day Adventists insisting they are better because they meet on Saturday instead of Sunday, or whatever. Time to wake up and fess up, LCMers. It's time. |
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05-23-2017 03:22 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The LCM is a history of divisions, quarantines, excommunications, power struggles, etc. There is also a long history of corruptions and unrighteousness in their LSM leadership which they have never repented for, instead they condemn the ones who happen to point it out. Somehow all the irony has been lost on you. |
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05-22-2017 08:56 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Yet Viola's book say the same thing. I have quoted the page which is word for word almost like I say - denominations are sectarian, divisive, and there was one church per city. The only big difference I see is that Viola promotes the house church or free group movement, and Viola claims to be saying it in a "loving way". If denominations truly are sectarian, divisive, pagan, then they cannot be serious about what they write if they try to sugar coat it with pleasantries. Putting that out there with false niceties to temper the fact, to me is the definition of insincerity. Rather, our attitude should be like Jesus driving the money changes out of the temple, otherwise, it indicates we are not serious about God's temple, or don't really believe that sectarianism and paganism is a problem. I believe it was Nee who wrote - either support denominations, or tear them down. Don't sit on the fence because being hot or cold is better than lukewarmness. Viola's book does its fair share of fence sitting by presenting a rather serious matter but then trying to sugar coat it. Only in LRC bookrooms? You can also buy Lee/Nee books in Christian bookstores these days too. Normal Christian Church life would be extreme as it puts forward the one city per church model and speaks against denominations. |
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05-22-2017 05:03 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Today I thought of the way Lee would treat people in his trainings. He would get someone up in front of everybody to "prove a point." He would ask them a question and if they didn't answer in the way he liked he would be dismissive of them. He eventually would turn his back on them if he didn't get what he wanted. This is the way the LCM acts. They declare what they think is true, if you don't get it they repeat themselves, if you don't get that they send the message that you aren't worth the trouble and are foolish for not listening. The whole idea is not to enlighten, but to play on your insecurities, to make you feel like you are on the outside looking in. But never do they honestly and opening address questions about what they expect everyone to believe. They just turn and walk away and hope you feel bad about it. That's what they do here, too, eventually. Rather than admit they need to rethink some things, they just disappear. But as far as I'm concerned, if you are going to go around claiming to be the "unique move of God," just darn sure better be prepared to do better than that. |
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05-22-2017 03:00 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And if you think there is actually something worthy of consideration, then you need to supply it because it has not been done in the past. The DCP hasn't done it. Lee didn't do it before that. Nor did Nee before that. If they have finally found the silver bullet, then you need to enlighten us. Don't pull a Lee and say that if you read all of scripture you will agree with him. That is a rhetorical trick to overwhelm the reader/listener into not asking for a reason to believe it is true. It seems to remove the burden of proof from the one making the claim and tries to shift it to those who can find no reason to accept it. But it doesn't work. It is backwards logic. Provide no real evidence, but when they cannot or will not dig everywhere to find something that clearly refutes it, you just claim to have won. "If you can't find why I am wrong, then I must be right despite no evidence. Why? Because I make the claim and I decided to make everyone else prove me wrong." It doesn't work that way. If you make a positive claim, you must provide a reason to accept it, otherwise it is rejected due to lack of evidence. And even if your idea is plausible, it cannot be made to be "THE" answer just because it could be plausible. |
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05-22-2017 02:33 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Actually, it is a view expressed from the most superficial analysis of the Christian landscape. There is no hiding that this landscape is very complex and nuanced. But oversimplifying things in the way Viola did is not really that meaningful. Viola and Barna have both made their names trying to shake things up. And from what I have read of them in the past (I did not read this one) is that they have some points to make. But too much of the time their primary rhetoric is at least a little over the top. (Sometimes more so.) The whole idea that certain things are pagan is probably more of a correlation between things than any clear evidence that it is contrary to scripture and instead a following of a pagan practice. And someone in the LRC should be quick to avoid that kind of thing because they have been accused of following many pagan practices just because of outward similarities without any evidence that the source was actually pagan. And don't forget that lack of a clear word for is not the same as a clear word against. (Which is not that same as saying just because there is not a clear word against, it must be clearly for.) |
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05-22-2017 02:19 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The problem with your logic about names and "denominations" is that even though they don't agree on everything, unlike those in Corinth, they actually are not putting up walls around their groups and declaring others to be wrong, and therefore "not church." Instead they just are honest up front that they, as a group, believe in certain things in a certain way. If you want to come anyway, that is fine. If you want to join with others who think more like you, that is also fine. But we are all agreed that we are the church and together we are reaching the world. Everyone except the LRC and a very few other extremists. |
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05-22-2017 02:08 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You picked one of the few books that is picking the scab on some particular things and is using some rather extreme language to talk about it. While it is a different conversation, it is like the critiques of Christian ways in general by the "emerging" and "emergent" movements of the recent past. While the "emergent" group eventually went off a cliff in many ways, the "emerging" group made many valid observations that are in the process of being continually discussed and even have caused changes in the landscape of Christianity as a whole. While I am not sold on the idea, there are some that think that even evangelicalism as we know it will look very different in just another 20 years or so. Not because we dumped our beliefs, but because we changed the thrust of our focus. And even if Viola's book is the extreme thing you say it is, it is not what most of the books in the bookstore are saying. So Igzy's comment about living at the extremes remains true. You want to insist upon an extreme group and are busy trying to paint every other group as a different kind of extreme that they just aren't. You found one book and think you have won. You haven't. You just found one book. I could show you several books that are worse in the kind of extremes that they teach. The problem is that they are generally only found in the LRC bookrooms. |
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05-22-2017 01:51 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The fact is life is messy and church is messy. Jesus knew that, which is why he became a friend of sinners, healed lepers, made disciples of tax collectors and prostitutes, and walked around in public not afraid of answering any question that was put to him. Genuine ministry means getting your hands dirty. It means putting yourself on the line, not being defensive and being willing to sacrifice and go the extra miles for people nobody else cares about and who probably can do nothing for you. It means giving everything from a heart of love, being willing to lose it all for one lamb. Anyone can be a hero for the "New Jerusalem." But the real heroes are the ones who pour it out for those everyone else has written off, including those who have questions that cause our shiny but thin theology to buckle, and force us back to the drawing board. Those who don't really care never go back to the drawing board. Why should they when they have everything figured out already? The only thing they have to do is brush off everyone who disagrees with them, and ignore that twinge in their consciences when they do it. We have been entrusted with the Truth and the ministry of reconciliation. That means we should have nothing to fear from questions, doubts, confusion, challenges or even anger from "extra-grace-required" people. These are exactly the people Jesus died for. The Truth cannot be threatened by anything, so it hangs in there, it sticks it out and sacrifices. It doesn't hole up in a fortress and sneer at the poor fools who don't get it. It stays up all night to answer every question it can and when it can't answer any more it says "I'm sorry, I don't know. I'll work on it. Please come back tomorrow." The LCM doesn't handle things that way. Its attitude is if you are not astute enough to know they are the best they don't really want you anyway. That's not the heart of God. Rather, it's an arrogant, elitist attitude that comes from believing you alone are "the unique move of God." The true unique move of God is loving people like Jesus did. Nothing is harder than that, which is why it is the prize. Anything else, no matter how seemingly great, is a fake, and certainly not "the unique move." |
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05-21-2017 11:02 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
It's very hard for us to refute personal experiences and other matters relating to people and circumstances from 30 years ago. I don't think the ministries you mention can even do that. But I can give my opinion about the question you posed to Drake - does God expect us to stay in the LCM. When I first joined the Recovery, I recall a brother telling us that we should follow the Lord, which seemed to extend to which fellowship we choose to belong to. But was he saying that to make me feel better and get me hooked? Or did he genuinely believe that the Lord may or may not lead one to the Recovery. There was a time when I attended a variety of denominations in addition to the Recovery. I seemed to be accepted in the Recovery as anyone who was "sold out". It was actually negative experiences in the denominations I attended which made the decision for me. One of those denominations cared that I attended other churches, they felt it was a kind of betrayal. The Recovery did not seem to care at all. A number of members had wives, parents, children, who attended denominations. |
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05-21-2017 08:22 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I have no personal preference for Drake. I have a preference for people who are reasonable, fair-minded and honest thinkers. But my observation is that even the most seemingly reasonable LCMers eventually succumb to irrationality. Why, because their values force them to. If you guys have a corner on the truth you ought to be able to answer any question, any argument, any misgiving. But you can't and you really don't even try. You just keep repeating the same mantras as if they answer all the questions. There are whole ministries out there devoted to the defense of the faith. Many of them are amazing in their research and insights. There is nothing like that in the LCM. All DCP does is find more ways to call everyone who disagrees with them stupid or evil. But they do not try to defend the LCM dogma with the kind of humble and loving sincerity you see in other faith defense ministries. They never admit to faults, and that is the calling card of phonies. If I was leading the LCM (assuming I believed in it) I have my best and brightest on this board every day fighting the battle. After all, if what you believe can't stand up to argument, why believe it? But there's not a peep. Awfully strange if you ask me. Sounds to me they know they's lose so they just content themselves by netting the dupes who don't ask questions and do what they are told. I know you try hard Evangelical, and I believe you and Drake want to be sincere. But you have your priorities screwed up. Truth comes first, faith second. Not the other way around. And the LCM insists having it the other way around. |
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05-21-2017 06:14 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Look I'll quote it again, where they say denominations are sectarian and divisive. The early Christians did not divide themselves into various denominations. They understood their oneness in Christ and expressed it visibly in every city. To their minds, there was only one church per city (even though it may have met in many different homes throughout the locale). If you were a Christian in the first century, you belonged to that one church. The unity of the Spirit was well guarded. Denominating themselves ("I am of Paul," "I am of Peter," "I am of Apollos") was regarded as sectarian and divisive (see 1 Corinthians 1:12). The book also has an endorsement of the one church per city model as contained in that paragraph I just quoted. |
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05-21-2017 05:50 PM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Then you say "When they write it in a book, the same things, that denominations are sectarian and divisive and unbiblical, it is not prejudiced and divisive (as you are now saying)" What a joke... The same things? Viola wouldn't touch Post 1970 Lee with a ten foot pole. I'm officially done with you Evan-gelical. Either you're completely oblivious or feigning naivety for the sake of your "argument". For the sake of those in the LSM denomination or those looking for more information - Please keep posting, they need to see your "logic" and "truth" |
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05-21-2017 05:28 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I'm not trolling but addressing some factual errors. You replied to leastofthese's post #185 in #186. That means you stepped into this little side discussion about Pagan Christianity (the book). It should be no surprise to anyone then that I was addressing both of you. If someone quotes me from another thread and brings that into here, and then you comment or reply to that, don't act surprised or "this is not the topic of the thread" when I address that. That is not trolling, that is clearing the air. But thank you for acknowledging that Pagan Christianity is one example of such a book. Certain parts seem to be taken straight from Nee's books anyway. It's not really an independent source of information about the early church. The book is not a reliable theological resource -I can't point to it and say it proves Nee right, if they are just quoting him anyway. To a limit I agree with you that most Christian books are not prejudiced or say negative things about each other. But I think that is because of the consequences of saying negative things rather than because they do not have anything negative to say. Most authors want to shy away from controversy. Viola and Barna have tried to stay away from controversy by the points that leastofthese raised, the "spirit of the book", yet have still received a certain amount of flak from Christianity. Even though I may agree with the things in the book, there is a fundamental difference in the approach. The book declares most of Christianity to be pagan, and yet much is neutral and therefore okay. The Recovery is not about rejecting denominations because they are pagan. It because of what we believe the bible reveals about one church per city. If the one church per city is true, then denominations are ruled out. Not, denominations are ruled out because they have pagan practices. |
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05-21-2017 05:16 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Moi? I can't see any reference to Pagan Christianity in this thread before leastofthese's post #185. |
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05-21-2017 05:13 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This is the very definition of hypocrisy: When we say it or Lee writes it, it is prejudiced and divisive, according to Igzy et al. When they write it in a book, the same things, that denominations are sectarian and divisive and unbiblical, it is not prejudiced and divisive (as you are now saying). You have highlighted a difference however in their view and ours. We may disagree on pagan practices being "redeemed for God's glory". I don't think any practice of another religion, Hindu, Muslim, whatever, can be "redeemed for God's glory". The book is essentially highlighting all the problems with Christianity today, yet what is more concerning is the book offers no advice about what to do about it. Christianity is pagan, let's call some things "neutral" and declare they can be "used for God's glory". |
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05-21-2017 01:40 PM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
These don't sound like divisive prejudices - If you read the book, you already realized this. This quote from "Pagan Christianity?" may help give you insight to Igzy's quote: "serious Christians do not have divisive prejudices anymore". "Most readers, however, responded positively, saying things like, "This book articulated what I've been feeling about the church for many years. And it gave me biblical and historical merit for those feelings". Interestingly, George and I received countless letters from pastors saying the same thing" I have never experienced more judgement and divisiveness then my time in the LSM denomination. On a similar note: have you seen what Viola has to say about Witness Lee and his "Local Church movement"? |
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05-21-2017 06:26 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Both examples are exceptions to the rule. They are extreme minority opinions. And as they say, the exception proves the rule. I never said you wouldn't find any examples. My point was that the vast overall attitude in the Church today is not divisive. (You seem to have cornered the market on divisive attitudes.) Evangelical, you are no longer discussing issues in good faith. It's one thing to have an opinion and disagreement. It's another to willfully ignore the clear point someone is trying to make and to twist into something else. That's trolling and that's what it seems you have come to. Someone else may have mentioned Paganism first. I really don't care. But you directed a statement about it at ME as if it had something to do with MY argument. And you knew it didn't. The fact is you haven't addressed any of my points in days and yet you are still posting on this thread. If you are not going to address the main point please take your comments elsewhere. Thank you. |
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05-21-2017 01:23 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God I can name them. And, it was you brought up Pagan Christianity. |
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05-21-2017 12:27 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The early Christians did not divide themselves into various denominations. They understood their oneness in Christ and expressed it visibly in every city. To their minds, there was only one church per city (even though it may have met in many different homes throughout the locale). If you were a Christian in the first century, you belonged to that one church. The unity of the Spirit was well guarded. Denominating themselves ("I am of Paul," "I am of Peter," "I am of Apollos") was regarded as sectarian and divisive (see 1 Corinthians 1:12). The church in the first century was an organic entity. It was a living, breathing organism that expressed itself far differently from the institutional church today. And that expression revealed Jesus Christ on this planet through His every-member functioning body In short, this book demonstrates beyond dispute that those who have left the fold of institutional Christianity to become part of an organic church have a historical right to exist—since history demonstrates that many practices of the institutional church are not rooted in Scripture. Remember I did not get this from Lee/Nee books. This is from a book in my local christian bookstore Now I can rephrase my previous statements to be on topic to this thread: Igzy said I should read all the Christian books, that "serious Christians do not have divisive prejudices anymore". (#144) Yet the book "Pagan Christianity" clearly prejudices against most churches/denominations today by declaring their existence to be "not rooted in Scripture". |
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05-21-2017 12:16 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Then you should be able to name them. Perhaps in another thread. This thread is not about paganism. |
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05-20-2017 07:47 PM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God You are disingenuous. A number of things that Viola discusses in that book are practiced in the LC too. |
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05-20-2017 05:45 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I wonder if there is any book that says God is pleased with denomination. I am sure there are many catholic or orthodox who would say or believe that membership with them will please God. But we do not say membership with us will please God. Firstly we do not have membership. Secondly, what pleases God is to leave Babylon. We would never say that one can please God by joining a denomination which is in Babylon. |
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05-20-2017 05:39 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God I have copybtoo. So you've read that most of church service is pagan. Now are you just going to ignore it or do something about it? |
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05-20-2017 10:27 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Or let me put it another way, Drake. It is entirely possible that God does not expect people to remain the LCM. And it he does not expect it, who is responsible for the suffering of those who were taught that? Are you so certain that God expects that? If so, explain your certainty. And if not, explain why you are willing to risk God's displeasure at the abuse of his little ones. |
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05-20-2017 09:55 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
In short, I did not experience the grace to fully take on the challenge of the LCM as if the requirement was from God. It became a religious exercise because, I believe now, that's what it was. That doesn't mean I didn't have good experiences. Just that God was not requiring me to accept and believe everything that was taught there, including and especially that their way was the only way to truly serve God, whether I saw "the vision" or not. I believe in obeying God, but the LCM "vision" is just one more interpretation of things and a flawed one I believe. It doesn't carry any weight in and of itself or because Lee taught it. However, the indoctrination produced an inner conflict in the heart of a young person. Though my gut told me that I was doing the right thing by leaving, my mind argued back, because I did not have the intellectual backing to support my gut. All I knew was there was something not right with the whole situation and I was very unhappy. Further since the LCM does not prepare a young person for life on their own outside the LCM (I joined when I was 18), I was not emotionally prepared for the challenges of life among non-LCMers. Also, my disposition and personality were quite naive and immature. So adjustment was very tough, which lent more fodder to the Devil's accusations. But it all hinged on the edict which in my day was taught quite plainly: "You cannot leave 'the church' and if you do you are in rebellion against God." This I now know is a lie, but that doesn't stop the Devil from accusing. Martin Luther suffered terribly from the Devil's accusations after he left Catholicism, even though he was not wrong to do so. But I don't know what you are getting at with these questions. Perhaps you are trying to help me? That's fine. I have nothing to hide, fear or prove now, and I don't mind answering questions. But I'd like the discussion to be relevant to the subject matter. So I like for you to try to respond to my whole argument that telling people they can't leave your group is an abusive practice. And also tell me: Who is responsible for my suffering? Just me? I accept some responsibility. I should have gotten Christian counseling. But I expect you are thinking that, well, if I hadn't had left I wouldn't have suffered. But don't you see that to me that's just one more piece of the manipulation? It's also kind of calloused. |
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05-20-2017 07:51 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy) "Actually I didn't fear the disapproval of others as much as my post might have indicated. I really just feared the daily dread of not being good enough. The daily grind of the unreasonable expectations of the LCM. The tediously spartan lifestyle. " Igzy, Ok, you did not fear the disapproval of others. Let's just take them out of your fear equation. Therefore, you feared the dread, the daily dread. Expectations were unreasonable. Expectations set by "LCM". So a kind of group pressure to dress a certain way, to have morning watch, to not enjoy that Big Mac and fry, to live a life of deprivation from TV and movies, to be at all the meetings, to serve on clean up, or parking, or unpacking boxes at meetings and trainings. You were a young man so you may have had a love interest but that was discouraged too. No staring, no quality time alone, and definitely no dating. Rather, surrounded mostly by brothers 24X7 you had to read the ministry, share, pray, exercise your spirit, shine your shoes, iron your own clothes, and make sure your dirty socks did not end up in someone's drinking glass. That sort of thing is what you feared. It wasn't just dread of that "spartan" life, you also had fear of the dread. Fear that you would slip, fall short, become disapproved and not be worthy of being a "good brother". Each day could be the day it became too much. The pressure was enormous. Something like that? Drake |
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05-20-2017 06:30 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Evangelical, you have been distracted by shiny objects again. The subject was division and denominations. I suggested you check in a Christian bookstore for evidence of Christian writers insisting membership in their denominations are requirements for pleasing God. Instead, knowing you would find little such evidence, you decided to change the subject to paganism. But we weren't talking about paganism, we were discussing the unique move of God. And my point is that the LCM abuse of that idea puts them as the leaders of the pack of divisive groups these days. And you continue to find ways to avoid that point, while at the same time proving it. Astounding. |
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05-20-2017 05:50 AM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You are your own worst enemy on this forum. The casual reader can see what you're attempting to do and sees right through it. |
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05-19-2017 08:34 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Igzy said I should read all the Christian books, that "serious Christians do not have divisive prejudices anymore". Yet the book "Pagan Christianity" clearly prejudices against most churches today by declaring most of their practices to be pagan. According to Igzy they must not be serious Christians. Or maybe you and others are just blind to the truth revealed by independent researchers and thinkers like Viola and Barna. Just like the majority of Christians in the time of Luther could not see the paganism of the Catholic church, and chose to remain there rather than come out with Luther. |
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05-19-2017 11:57 AM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
In the mind of a general LCer, to be meeting practically as the church you need to be in fellowship with LSM as the vehicle for the fellowship. Wherever you live, if you want to be meeting practically as the church, you must come to us where we meet. We won't go to where you're at. To meet practically as the church, in any given city the address is The Church in ______ 12345 Street. There are meeting times listed. Those who want to be there will show up at the appointed times. Christians meeting with various assemblies in the same city are viewed as "illegitimate", "on the wrong ground", "missing the mark", "denominations". |
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05-19-2017 11:47 AM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God In all fairness, not everyone in the local churches feel that way. There are those who are expressive and do speak and come across as wanting to discredit all other fellowships, ministers, etc. Those in the local churches who disagree with that expression will remain silent and won't make an issue by speaking contrarily. |
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05-19-2017 10:33 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
In fact, it is almost as if their spiritual identity hinges on this need. LCMers seem to think "just being another group" is entirely unacceptable. Of course, we all want to be more than just a group, we all want to be the Church. And we are, thankfully. But for LCMers that is not good enough. They seem to feel that if anyone else is allowed to be the Church then they are denied something. Hence Evangelical's vitriol toward "Christianity." It really is a form of greed. Although I'm sure they would deny that tooth and nail. |
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05-19-2017 05:40 AM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This guy won't see the irony in his attempt at a "gotcha" statement. He won't see that this is what many have pointed out - he is clearly out of touch with Christianity. He thinks that the mindset described above (By Frank Viola) is somehow counter the the movement of Christ across the world and perfectly aligned only with the teachings of Witness Lee and the LSM denomination. I've seen first hand the difficulties in breaking this bondage within the LCM and seeing Christianity for what it is today. It is difficult when you're living in a world organized by a fallen man (Lee) and orchestrated by Living Streams Ministry. Come back to the truth set out in Scripture, come back to the Author of Truth, and the Spirit of Truth. Other believers are not adversaries stuck in Babylon and will come along side you through your journey. |
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05-18-2017 06:34 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I really just feared the daily dread of not being good enough. The daily grind of the unreasonable expectations of the LCM. The tediously spartan lifestyle. I realize things have softened some since the early days. But the fundamental problem remains. You talk about the Lord bringing you into "his recovery." This shows you've allowed yourself to be indoctrinated with the belief that the focal point of God's work on the earth is centered in a tiny group of Christians which hasn't appreciably increased in 60 years. That's simply irrational. I can't see how intelligent Christians still believe that. I mean, if there were some indication of superior results in that system I might be swayed. But every person I've encountered from the LCM who was there when I was show no more appreciable growth than I've had, for all I can tell. So I just see no real evidence of all the claims. As far a I'm concerned, this belief--that the LCM or any other group, is so "special" that the members feel justified in placing fear in each of leaving it--is a doctrine of demons. Using the fear of God's judgment to hold members in one's group is one of the most craven and underhanded things a leader can do. It's abuse, plain and simple That's what I fight against and that's what this thread is all about. Here's a bet. I'd be willing to bet that if the leaders of the LCM finally announced, as in good conscience they should, that the members should feel the freedom to leave and meet where the Lord leads with no fear of judgment, the LCM would lose at least half its membership in short order. They should do it anyway. Why would you want to hold people there that don't want to be there? The LCM would be better off with just willing participants. But the leaders have a deep-seated fear, too, I think. The fear of losing a huge chunk of membership if they ever told their members the WHOLE truth. I think everyone knows deep down that if the the leaders of the LCM didn't put the fear of leaving into its members, then eventually no one would stay. |
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05-18-2017 06:10 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God ZNP) "In my own experience the fear was a mirage. Face it, go through the cross, experience the fellowship of the Lord's sufferings and you will also experience the outstanding resurrection." At some point, probably around the Philippians training, my understanding flipped on this and I realized that my personal experience more closely aligned with that of Philippians 3:10. There the starting the point is the power of His resurrection then what follows is the fellowship of His sufferings and being conformed to His death. That helped me to struggle less and enjoy Him more. Less anxiety and more trust. This footnote in the Recovery Version on that verse articulates my experience well: "With Christ, the sufferings and death came first, followed by the resurrection. With us, the power of His resurrection comes first, followed by the participation in His sufferings and conformity to His death. We first receive the power of His resurrection; then by His power we are enabled to participate in His sufferings and live a crucified life in conformity to His death. Such sufferings are mainly for producing and building up the Body of Christ (Col 1:24)" An example of this is what I meant in response to Igzy about living the "good brother" life of Christ. Nevertheless ZNP, by whatever process or steps taken you must have also experienced His resurrection power in fellowship and in the joy of the Lord since you were there for another decade in spite of adverse circumstances. Drake |
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05-18-2017 04:55 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God I appreciate your perspective. I am happy that this forum includes different perspectives and experiences. In my own experience the fear was a mirage. Face it, go through the cross, experience the fellowship of the Lord's sufferings and you will also experience the outstanding resurrection. I was threatened by elders, slandered by them, and had my hospitality manipulated by them to make my life miserable, but in the end all of those threats were impotent. Why, what prompted them to do this? I once told a brother in the book room that I preferred WN to WL because when I read WL's book's I didn't get anything from them. But it didn't matter. I was able to fully function in the LRC standing on the word of God and I did not need to lift up WL. I worked on the construction site in Irving for 18 months, I was involved in the raising up of a church in Odessa for about 2 years, and I was in Taipei in the FTTT for 8 years. |
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05-16-2017 10:13 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Igzy) "Fear of not being good enough, fear of not "making" the kingdom, fear of not pleasing "the brothers." In general fear of failure, of not being a "good brother." " Igzy, From my perspective there is mixture described above..... healthy fear and perhaps some misplaced fear. Healthy fear is toward God including a fear of not entering into His rest. A fear of being disapproved standing before the judgement seat of Christ (the Bema) and missing the reward of the kingdom are also very healthy fears. The fear of not pleasing the brothers or failing to be a good brother was never a fear that I experienced. When the Lord brought me into His recovery I gained a heightened awareness of whether my actions or words might offend others but that never reached the level of fear. Doing well on training tests was concerning yet I wouldn't use fear to describe that. Neither did I always agree with everything said or go along with it. I always checked with the Lord and sometimes I held back when others went forward and other times I felt very alone in the front while others were holding back.. Yet, whether I was sidelined, or leading the charge, or in the middle of the pack or at the back, I had peace. I may have been puzzled at times but I was at peace before the Lord. Unless I was restful before the Lord I typically did not act. Still, I recall times when I had the peace to sit something out, yet the Lord encouraged me to get up. Or I felt to charge ahead on something and the Lord spoke to be still. Fear was not a factor. What I am saying net net Igzy, is that fear of not pleasing others or not being a good brother ON THEIR OWN MERITS is misplaced fear. It sounds like law to me. Truth is, I cannot be a good brother unless Christ is the good brother in me. I can pretend to be a good brother but only His life reaches the good brother standard. If your fear was that you were not living the good brother life of the Lord through you then I would say that is healthy because we should be concerned about missing Him in every situation. Otherwise, a fear of not living up to some standard apart from His life is misplaced fear. It simply cannot be done so why fear it? Rather acknowledge and confess it to Him then allow Him to become that in you... e.g. the good brother. Drake |
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05-16-2017 06:07 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The reason it is relevant to this thread is because the "unique work of God" if it is about building the Church, is not about it in the way the LCM is about it. My point is that it is easy to say "I am for God's true purpose." But if that purpose is not about helping people then however good it sounds it is off. And I mean "helping" in the way Jesus wants to help people--that is, he is concerned about spirit, soul, body, in that order. But he was concerned about people, not an abstract ideal or institution called "the Church." "I'm for the building of the Church" sounds really, really good. But if you look closer at the LCM vision it is really about building an institution. It isn't about people. The Church is some separate entity from people to them. They don't admit it, but that's the way it is. People are a means to an end in their model. But in God's heart people ARE the end. Yes, he wants us "built up together." But that is because the highest blessing is living in cooperative community with God at the center, not because some ideal called "the Church" beckons us. God is all about loving and blessing people. Besides himself, people are his highest ideal. Not the LCM's "Church" abstraction, which really turns out to be their movement in disguise. |
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05-16-2017 04:15 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But if you look at most of the bookstore content it will be solid, mainstream, fundamental and decidedly non-divisive. Unlike the LCM wackadoo. |
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05-16-2017 03:06 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I might start with "Your Best Life Now" by Joel Olsteen, and then I might read how to improve my finances by Creflo Dollar. Actually I agree with you - the total content of a Christian bookstore is fairly reflective of the true state of Christianity. I might just "come out" of the prosperity teaching section, walk past the Catholic/Pope section and stroll over to the Witness Lee /Watchman Nee section and start reading there. |
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05-16-2017 03:03 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
It is a strange piece of advice to give someone to know about the Church by reading all the books in a Christian bookstore. Should I start with "Winning at Work and in Your Finances", by Creflo Dollar. |
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05-16-2017 02:20 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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I would attribute this to a love of money. I knew many saints who were very concerned with charitable works, but it was clear that you had to not let the right hand know what the left hand was doing. Once again, the problem is with Judas who holds the money bag, he complains about how you are wasting your money instead of giving it to him. The reasons are just lies, the reality is the love of money and trying to make merchandise of the saints. |
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05-16-2017 01:12 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-16-2017 01:02 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Or are unwilling to address the errors. |
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05-16-2017 01:00 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Being "a good brother" in my opinion is really arbitrary. What's the basis of being a good brother? One who submits unequivocally "to the brothers" and whose absoluteness to the ministry is without question. All the while to be "a good brother" doesn't require good character. Oh you could be anywhere. Let's take Oklahoma City for example. A brother leaves his wife to take up with another sister, but in the minds of the elders, "he's a good brother". A brother can be physically abusive towards his wife, but as long as his actions and speaking doesn't betray what it means to be a good brother, his standing with the responsible ones is unhindered. However a brother can find his standing as "a good brother" questionable if submission isn't unequivocal. When you begin questioning the responsible ones, that's when a brother seems to lose his standing. |
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05-16-2017 10:29 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I created this thread because we were going off-topic in the original one and asked the moderator to copy some relevant posts over from it. But the subject of the thread is the idea of the "Unique Move of God." Knowing the usual LCM double-talk and equivocation, that term can mean several things. The purpose of this thread is to identify any legitimate meanings and expose self-serving and damaging meanings. Quote:
I didn't exactly hear Drake say the things you said. I still hear him saying that the real work of God is only going on in the LCM. Although I understand the impulse to be faithful to an overriding vision, the problem with the LCM vision is that the practical outworking of it always seems to be more than a little self-serving. So they are focused on "the building of the church." How is that really different than any church being focused on the growth and condition of its members? What is different between the church being built and all the members growing in community? There shouldn't be any, really. So why the problem with 'Christianity'? With the LCM it always comes down to their defining general ideas in such proprietary specifics that they effectively de-legitimize everyone but themselves. For example, there are surely many groups that meet as the church in the city. But the LCM recognizes only those associated with LSM. What does "building the Church" really mean, anyway? I don't think any of us really know. And the fact is the Lord did not commission us to build the church. He commissioned us to disciple the nations. He said HE would build the church. But he never told us to. At the very most he told us to build up "one another." But no place in the NT does he tell us to build the church. Now I know there are OT types of temple and wall building. But there has to be a reason that the charge to us to build the church is not so direct. And I think the reason is because the Lord wanted us to focus on people and not an institution. One of the pitfalls of getting into "church building" is that it easily transmutes into an impersonal effort where people become subordinate to the cause, where they become means to an idealized but never quite realized end--in this case the awesome and terrible "Builded Church." This is exactly what has happened in the LCM. When it becomes about "the Church" in the way the LCM means, people become secondary. Huge mistake. For what is the Church? It's just the people. The LCM seems to miss this, though. To them building the Church means furthering the cause of the LCM movement. It's about an abstract idealistic "purpose." It's not about helping the brother or sister sitting next to them. "Sorry, brother. I can't help you. I'm too busy building the Church." The Jesus who left the flock to rescue one lost lamb is a Jesus the LCM is unfamiliar with. In the LCM Jesus would be more likely to dump the lamb for the sake of "the Church," which in their case is not people, but a MacGuffin . |
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05-16-2017 09:55 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You should try it sometime. And again, I challenge you to find one book that says something like, "in order to be a truly faithful Christian you must join the [insert specific flavor] church." You'll likely only find that sort of comment in LCM literature. That's ironic, but I'm sure the irony is lost on you. |
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05-16-2017 07:48 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Yes, I knew someone. I was in Houston, a brother told me he had cancer, a Chinese brother laid hands on him and he was cured. |
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05-16-2017 06:37 AM | ||||||||
countmeworthy |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Do you or anyone you know in the LSM lay hands on anyone who is sick? Did Lee ever lay hands on anyone who was sick? |
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05-16-2017 05:05 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Does this mean that "all" cannot shepherd because that is a gift? Does this mean that "all" cannot give because giving is a gift? This is a fantastic catch by you, please explain. |
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05-16-2017 04:40 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-16-2017 04:29 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-16-2017 04:24 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I think I have a better feel for the attitudes and beliefs of the Church at large than the average LCMer. ... Go to any Christian bookstore. Start reading the books ... It reads as if you have a better feel for the attitudes and beliefs of the Church at large because you have read the books in Christian bookstores. I'm sure you did not mean that but that is how it reads to me. |
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05-16-2017 02:57 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
So perhaps you might want to rethink your lecture on this thread not being about filtering out teachings that don't align with the mission and purpose of the church. This thread was started by Igzy as a response to Drake. Igzy feels the use of the term "unique move of God" is sectarian because he views the term "unique move of God" as referring to the "Lord's Recovery Church". Drake on the other hand feels that the term refers to the Lord building His church in this age, that many groups of Christians have not been faithful to that vision but as for him and his house he is going to embrace that vision. Now if that is not what this thread is about then by all means help me see clearly. As far as I can see both sides have valid points but they aren't listening to each other. If I claim my little fellowship of 200 Christians in some city of millions is "the unique move of God" then, yes, that is sectarian. On the other hand if I identify Jesus word that "I will build my church" as "the unique move of God in this age" then that is not. If I claim that some Christian groups have "misaimed" or perhaps have aimed correctly but "missed the mark" then that is also a valid point. The point being not that they are not genuine Christians, not that they are not the beloved of the Lord, but that they are not fully matured and have not yet been perfected. How could anyone be "perfected" or "fully matured" if they cannot identify the errors? Claiming that they are all "the church" does not help anyone to "be perfect" or to let patience have its perfect work. So if we are going to discuss "the unique move of God" surely it includes growing unto maturity, letting patience have its perfect work, expressing the Lord Jesus in His fullness. Returning to Drake's quote, he is saying that there is a process that leads to maturity, and that is to "filter out teachings". If this thread is not about this process then this entire thread is off topic. |
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05-15-2017 08:56 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God And you know why I went through that, Drake? So I could be right here, today, telling people to avoid places like the LCM. God knew what he was doing. The Devil meant it for evil. But God meant it for good. And it sure is fun being here right now knowing I know what I'm talking about. But I still like you, and I know there is some good there. But there is a deposit of some dark history and some extremely dark remnants of that history, and someone needs to purge it. |
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05-15-2017 08:11 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This fear generally pushed me to try harder at toeing the LCM line. You know, the whole bit, going to all the trainings, reading all the Life-Studies and books, taking part in all the gospel outings, dressing like a dork, keeping completely clear of the world. Guilt, guilt, guilt. Fear and loathing. I was never good enough. But it was a standard I could not keep nor that the Lord wanted me to keep. I remember one time Titus Chu came to Texas. He gave messages directed at the young people. He got on us for going to McDonald's after the meetings. He said in his broken English, "You don't know how much McDonald's hurt church life." So now I had to feel guilty about wanting fast food after a meeting, or any other time, I guess. Really? Even a moment of escape into a small order of fries was bad? More guilt. I remember Lee warning us to not play sports, or have dogs for pets, or drink coffee, or read the newspaper, or seek entertainment, or... the list goes on. More fear and loathing. In one training, I think it was Colossians, Lee actually told us to flee "anything that makes you happy." No kidding. That's a quote. Any outlet of personal pleasure was frowned upon. I felt like a failure because I could not be this machine that just "enjoyed Christ." What a bunch of BS that all was. Any sensible person would have just left right away. But fear and guilt kept me there. I had been indoctrinated by a bunch of fanatical jerks who are going to pay for it someday. But the requirement was untenable. So finally I just left. Now, looking back I see how abused and manipulated I was. But that realization took time and the cost was a lot of suffering. I was just a kid. They preyed on my naivete. They stole a big chunk of my life. So, yeah, I resent it. I pity the LCM now. I don't hate anyone. But I'm very serious about helping anyone I can avoid that place, including you. |
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05-15-2017 02:56 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You can't muddy every discussion with every other discussion. We are trying to parse out the coded message that the LRC sends when it makes reference to the "unique move of God," not take a different approach to ferretting out all the other problems in the church that might cause us to actually invalidate some particular group. The LRC uses "unique move of God" to invalidate virtually everyone that is not them. The things you are pointing to are useful to eliminate the truly aberrant groups and leaders. While not a completely different subject, it is almost the polar opposite side of the discussion. But in between is a vast collection of assemblies that make up the church both as local assemblies and as part of the body of Christ universal. The goal of this discussion is not to find valid ways to invalidate any group (even if there is legitimately such an endeavor). It is to demonstrate that the LRC's rhetoric for invalidating most of Christianity, leaving only their little sect as the one that is in "God's unique move," is not a valid, scripture-supported position. Further, there is nothing defined by the scripture as the "unique move of God" that would not encompass all that God is doing rather than just the little that one particular group is doing. |
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05-15-2017 01:25 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Sure. You said "that belief leads to all the fear, manipulation, abuse and damage that those complaints testify of. " You mentioned one of your fears was of God's punishment by leaving the group. What other fears did you have? What fears were on your mind when you went to bed and when you woke up? Drake |
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05-15-2017 01:04 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Your point would be fine if it were not for the fact that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. |
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05-15-2017 12:22 PM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-15-2017 11:58 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I recall one poster asking "Shouldn't God be one in his move?" Meaning: Shouldn't God have a unified army of Christians throughout the earth who do everything in lockstep and identically. Well, I guess you might think so if you were trained under the authoritarian Chinese mindset of Nee/Lee. But if you see the way God operates in nature, no. If God were like the LCM concept there would be one kind of tree, one kind of bird, one kind of sunny day, one kind of cloud, one kind of wind, one kind of rainstorm, one kind of smile, one kind of pretty girl, etc, etc. Oneness is not conformity; and division is not differences. Oneness is receiving all and seeking common ground; division is having an antagonistic attitude toward others. Now, who do you think of when you consider those specifications? |
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05-15-2017 11:27 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The church is the body of Christ. There are no qualifiers put on that other than to be "Christian," meaning those who believe in Jesus, the Son of God (within the meaning of "believe" as used in John 3:16). Whether they are the only assembly in town, or can't even quantify the number of assemblies is irrelevant. Whether all assemblies in a particular city are under a single unified set of elders is not written as a qualification. All attempts to invalidate other assemblies is evidence of a sectarian mind that is seeking something other than Christ and should make their status as meeting as Christian suspect. In that environment, "unique" would be an irrelevant word. God is unique. But he works in multifarious ways. To over-define, or over-restrict God's ways with terms like "unique" is evidence of a lack of knowledge of God. It surely does not evidence a special status with God. The most clear example of such a mindset was found in Revelation chapter 3 in the letter to Laodicea. The church that claimed the most while Christ was on the outside knocking to get in. |
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05-15-2017 10:38 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Quote:
Just kidding. Can you clarify your point or question please? |
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05-15-2017 10:13 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-15-2017 10:08 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I doubt that any of these called themselves "the church in" anything. They just met. As Christians meeting. Now you want a name to create division that is worse than excluding others for anything that is not meeting with you and you call them the problem. This is not about names or separate assemblies. It is about assemblies that do not fall under the control of the elders of the LRC in your city (or in mine) and not under the control of the headquarters in Anaheim. I can assure you that the Presbyterians do not think this way. They do not invalidate every other church for simply not being under their umbrella. Neither do the Methodists, the Pentecostals, the Baptists, the Bible churches (all independent), the Anglicans, and so on. There is some question about the RCC stance, but even that one does not declare the assemblies of Protestantism as invalid and therefore not churches. |
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05-15-2017 09:58 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-15-2017 09:55 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And I agree. The problem I find is that when people want to read things as exclusive, then terms like "beloved" or "called by God" suddenly do not mean what you and I think they mean. So to the LRC, it doesn't matter that the "obvious" reading is against them. They will insist on their convoluted understanding of the words as being only to special Christians, not to all Christians. |
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05-15-2017 06:43 AM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
We are well beyond the research phase. I have been living this life for decades. Any new research to consider I find right here in this forum. But, lets take these one by one. Your first one was fear. .. of God's punishment of leaving the group. What other fear, if any? Yours. You went to bed and woke up fearing what? Drake |
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05-15-2017 06:00 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Drake and Evangelical, Please try to understand my essential point in this thread. All the abuse in the LCM (and it did and does exist Drake) is rooted in the authoritarian nature of the movement. And the authoritarian nature of the movement is rooted in the idea that the movement is the unique move of God, the only legitimate place for Christians to experience church life. Which is a total lie. This is why I focus my efforts on this point. Because I've lived the hell that comes with such indoctrination. It's one of the worst things a person can experience. It's he worst thing I've ever experienced. And it went on for years. If you've ever wondered why those women in those extreme LDS groups stay there, when basically they are just sexual fodder for fanatical men that dominate them there, then you have viewed firsthand the mentality that holds a person in a group they really want to leave. It's not easy to overcome indoctrination that attaches the fear of God's punishment with leaving a group. That is Cult 101. The Devil had a field day with many of us young ones. Remember what the Lord said about offending the little ones and about being better off drowned at the bottom of the sea with a millstone tied to your neck. He meant that. And you'd better start taking it seriously. Because somebody is going to pay for the damage that was done by this movement. |
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05-15-2017 05:40 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Lucky you. But regardless this still shows you are either in denial or apathetic about the history of the movement you've given your life to. If I were you I do more homework instead putting all my chips on a bet I haven't researched. |
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05-15-2017 05:37 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Good grief, Evangelical. I said that people are going to recommend the church they prefer. But recommending is a far cry from telling people they will probably end up in outer darkness if they don't join your church, which is basically what the LCM does. Please try to keep up. |
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05-14-2017 10:02 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
So you dont think Orthodox people are serious christians because they advise joining the orthodox church? |
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05-14-2017 09:13 PM | ||||||||
Drake |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Regardless of why I believe as I do, I still do not recognize the fesr, manioulation, abuse, and damage that you and others describe. It is just not my experience. Drake |
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05-14-2017 07:02 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I think I have a better feel for the attitudes and beliefs of the Church at large than the average LCMer. Your beliefs are basically in line with what Witness Lee taught 50 years ago. Go to any Christian bookstore. Start reading the books and see how many you find where the writer advises people to join one particular denomination. It just doesn't happen that much anymore. Yes, people generally think their church preference is a good choice, that's why they go there. Duh. But I think the vast majority of serious Christians do not have divisive prejudices anymore. |
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05-14-2017 06:29 PM | ||||||||
leastofthese |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
During my time with the LSM denomination, I interacted with people like Evangelical, and it saddened me when they constantly spoke poorly of other churches, denominations, etc... these are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Not only that, but (as I have shared) I have been blessed to live, work, and play among a diverse set of Christians - the same people that many of those in the LSM denomination write off with such bold, broad strokes. I don't think it matters how many people, from all different walks of life, different locations around the world that you hear this from - it doesn't fit your narrative - so it must be false. May the Lord remind us all "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.' |
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05-14-2017 05:04 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Dear Igzy and UntoHim. Regarding 'everyone now realizes...'...it is simply not true. For example the orthodox fellow on here had a problem with calling other groups churches. I can quote our discussions if you like. Why do I need to get out more when you can't see the evidence right in front of you? The views that you hold regarding the one true church including everyone who preaches the gospel is not shared by the majority of the body of Christ. |
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05-14-2017 11:36 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But they don't do it in the exclusive way you do it. When you call a group "the church" you mean they are part of the LCM movement. When anyone else does it they mean they are part of the universal church. Times have changed a lot. Everyone now realizes we are all part of one church. Whether that one church is measured by the city or the whole earth, it matters little. In reality we are one. And because that reality is clearer than ever, churches are cooperating and joining forces more than ever. I visit different churches a lot. I have no problem viewing them as the church nor would I think people visiting our church would have a problem either, and we get visitors all the time. As UntoHim said, you need to get out more. But, I'll say it again: The pretzel-logic localism constructs of the LCM are not designed to achieve universal practical oneness among all Christians. They are designed to reserve to the LCM exclusively the status of "church." It's a more clever and sophisticated way of proclaiming themselves to be the "true church" than has been done by other chest thumpers down through history. But in essence it's no different than when the RCC does it, the ICC does it, the LDS does it or the JWs do it. It's the same error. |
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05-14-2017 08:44 AM | ||||||||
UntoHim |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The title of this thread is "The Unique Move of God". So God's move is unique. Unique to what, or better yet unique to who? Is the move of God unique to any particular group of people who follow a particular man and his particular ministry? Even the apostle Paul did not claim such a privilege for himself. Neither did any of the original apostles, whose teachings we are to closely follow. You keep insisting that "most protestants/evangelicals" are this or that, and teach this or that. You are clueless my friend. I guess I can't blame you too much, your guru was decidedly clueless and ignorant of what God was really doing to build his church. Witness Lee had zero trust in the Lord Jesus' declaration that "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH". (Matt 16:18) Lee set out to build something alright, and unfortunately we see the results of his handiwork in your posts here on this forum. Getting back to your quote I have cited above: Igzy has answered you well. Actually most evangelicals (even the dreaded denominations) consider every local church in their city/community as "the church" if they preach and teach the one true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Secondary teachings and practices are just that...secondary. Those who clearly teach false doctrines that touch upon the primary, core, central teachings of the Christian faith are rightfully marked out and people are warned. I hate to break the bad news to you, Evangelical, but localism is NOT, and NEVER HAS BEEN one of the primary, core, central teachings of the Christian faith. - |
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05-14-2017 07:46 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
It's simple, there is one church in the city which is comprised of smaller groups and churches, just like there is one church on earth comprised of smaller churches. On the one hand each group is "the church" and on the other they are just their group. The LCM is "the church" but so are the community churches and other groups of Christians. On the one hand they can call themselves "the church," on the other they can can call themselves something else. There is no Biblical edict or warning that if you call yourself something else you lose your status as the church. Claiming otherwise is non-biblical. For example, each year a family might celebrate the "Smith" reunion. But the Smiths have grown into other families by marriage. So the Joneses are there, the Johnsons are there, the Greens are there, etc. But they are all the Smith family as well. The Church is like that. Every group is the church in the city, but on the other hand every group is only part of the church in the city. Just like every group is the universal church, but then again only part of it. Size and name does not take away the status of being the church. We are what we are. You seem to to think there must be one group in the city that has the overriding status of being the church over all others, or that by having some kind of name one's status as the church is diminished. But the Bible gives us no such instruction. It is just an LCM construct. It carries no weight because it's not backed by the Bible. It's just human reasoning. And please don't try to make the case that the LCM is more inclusive because they call themselves "the Church in ...." The LCM is more doctrinally divisive than most groups are. Any credit they might get by their naming conventions is more than eclipsed by their insistence on following Lee to a "T." |
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05-14-2017 07:21 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Besides, the LCM meets the way they do because of doctrinal differences as well. And the fact that you consider yourselves the only legitimate expression of the church doesn't make it so. |
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05-14-2017 05:35 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-14-2017 04:33 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God OK so if not us, which group do you suggest we equate "the one church" with? Someone has to put their hand up and say "we are the one church". The alternatives are - there is no such thing as the "one church", or that every group that calls itself Christian is the"one church". I doubt that Catholics, Orthodox, and most protestants/evangelicals would like calling every group in their locality the "one church". |
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05-14-2017 01:33 AM | ||||||||
Koinonia |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-13-2017 11:48 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The difference is a denominational church/organization is quite different from a house assembly in how and why it arranges itself. Do you really believe that the churches in each house met because of some preference in doctrine or practice (as denominations do today)? For example, do you really believe Paul was writing to a house church of full immersion baptizers, a house of tongue-speakers, a Jewish house church, and a Gentile house church? It seems to me that he was trying to over look all and any distinctions (there is no Jew or Gentile etc, all are one in Christ), and to distinguish them by anything (names, practices, doctrines etc) would be to violate that oneness. I believe this is why Paul does not write this way: "dear household of tongue speakers", "dear household of Jewish circumcisers", "dear household of gentiles", "dear household of Sabbath keepers" as he would have if it was a situation like todays denominations. |
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05-13-2017 11:28 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Almost by definition, matters which we should be one on should be things that are obvious to most reasonable Christians. Demonstrably the local ground does not meet that requirement, to say the least. Ask yourself, if the local ground was so crucial to God's plan, why would this point be something so obscure that almost no Christians have agreed with it and something which they likely could never reach agreement on going forward? This is one reason I say the LCM really doesn't want everyone to meet on the ground of the city. Because if they did the LCM would be over. They really just want to use the local ground as a way to claim legitimacy for themselves and deny it to others. Imagine if a group said that to be the true church all members must wear green caps with purple and yellow slinkys hanging from them. All the members of that group wear such caps and claim that those groups that don't are not true churches. But they have a dirty little secret. They really think that no one else will come to wear the caps, and so they will get to continue being the only ones doing things right and being the true church. Their "uniqueness" is secured, they believe. But one day, to their shock, most of the other Christians in the city start wearing green caps with purple and yellow slinkys. The group didn't expect this, so they just up the ante. They declare that the others' caps don't have enough slinkys, or that the colors are not the right shade, or some other excuse to deny legitimacy to everyone else and reserve it for themselves. And so it goes with the local ground, the "unique move" and the LCM. It's all just a gimmick of self-aggrandization. It's all just a game of self-delusion. |
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05-13-2017 08:25 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
One is an unapproved name, at least by Anaheim's standards. The other is a denomination, which has the demands of a controlling headquarters. Firstly, the Bible does not consistently use any specific name for the church, contrary to your formulae. Secondly, TLR is clearly the headquarters for every member LC around the globe. It is so disingenuous to condemn others as "illegitimate and divisive denominations" when you are no different. |
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05-13-2017 08:18 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Yet you either ignore these situations or claim they do not exist. |
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05-13-2017 07:32 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Every practical church is a subset of the larger Church. It is not a matter of whether groups "wish" to identify themselves as subgroups, the fact is every practical group IS a subgroup, whether they wish it or not. Your argument is circular. You begin with the assumption that the only legitimate churches are local, then proceed from there. But you don't have enough Biblical backing to even make that assumption, and so your argument collapses under its own weight. That is why no appreciable percentage of Christians take it seriously. Simply put, reasonable doubt wrecks your case. There is not a good enough Biblical argument for what you claim to be true. Therefore insisting on it works the opposite of what you claim to want. It works division. |
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05-13-2017 07:23 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-13-2017 07:10 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God I maintain that LCM's standards of what is a church are not intended to achieve the goal of us all being one happy family on the ground of oneness. The LCM's standards are intended to reserve for themselves alone the status of "church." The LCM claims to want all Christians in a city to meet together in oneness. But actually they would be terrified if that actually happened. Because if all the Christians in a city joined together, the tiny minority that wished to follow Witness Lee would be swallowed up by the majority. If 95% of the Christians decided to drop all names and just meet together and follow a coalitions of leaders it would probably look like just a typical 21st-century community church, albeit a very large one. But they most likely would not follow Witness Lee or Watchman Nee. The certainly wouldn't follow the Blended Brothers. The tiny Lee-loyal-LCM-faction would then find an excuse to break off from the majority, concocting some excuse as to why the much larger group was "off." And it would be business as usual for them, as they resumed their song-and-dance about being the unique, proper testimony, albeit their hypocrisy would be evident to all and their journey to irrelevancy would be complete. No, the last thing the LCM really wants is for all the Christians in cites to meet as the church in those cities. It would mean the end of the LCM. |
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05-13-2017 06:44 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The subject of this thread is not whether not the church can become corrupted and may need to takes steps to purify itself. The subject of this thread is whether or not one group should consider itself the "true church" while discrediting all others, and whether or not one movement should consider itself the "unique move of God" while discrediting all others. Let's stick to the subject. I maintain that the LCM is grossly in error by making the above claims. The Bible records gives us no ground to decide whether some group is or is not a church. And it certainly gives no ground for a movement to consider itself the unique representatives of the unique move of God. Check church history and find one subset of the church which claimed the above and were proven by history to be right. No. Every group which made such self-serving claims ended up either dropping them or becoming irrelevant. What you tend to do, Evangelical, is equivocate. You go back and forth between claiming a church has become corrupt to claiming it is not a church. But clearly the Bible shows that being a church does not mean practical perfection. Thyatira was in bad shape. Yet the Lord addressed it as church. This does not mean we should be apathetic about corruption. It just means, and I'll say it again, that we should be very careful about claiming to know what are churches and what aren't. Make the call for holiness and purity all you want. I'll back you up on that. But stop the business of claiming to know which are churches and what aren't. You don't. |
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05-13-2017 03:03 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
If there is no true church (batch of dough), then why does the bible warn against the leaven? (Galatians 5:9) If there is no true church then why is Paul giving instructions to preserve it?: 1 Cor 5:13 "Purge the evil person from among you". 2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. The denominations are like a dough which has already been leavened! We cannot remove the leaven once it is already permeated the dough! The only solution is to throw it out and start again. |
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05-13-2017 02:51 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Anything can be fleshly and not spiritual, I think we all know how much focus Lee put on one being in their spirit and not in their mind/flesh. So your concern is shared but also well understood and your concern sounds more like something Lee would say. If it should happen, I don't see anything wrong with building up one's emotions and sense of self-worth by sharing their experiences with others. God treasures us very highly and so I don't think self-abasement is necessarily a good thing. I still think this is a better situation than a church which muzzles its congregation. The solution to the problem of people speaking from their flesh is not to stop people from speaking. And sometimes it is not so cut and dry. For example, a person may speak something very much from Christ for 30 seconds and then at the end tell a funny joke which gets them back to the flesh. Or they may start in their flesh and then the Spirit takes over. |
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05-13-2017 02:42 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-13-2017 02:37 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
1 Cor 5:13 "Purge the evil person from among you". Paul's instruction to purge evil people from among them, proves that there must have been a genuine "true church" at the time. Also in John: 2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. |
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05-13-2017 02:22 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The role of an elder is for practical administration of the church, e.g. finances, parking spaces, helping people deal with personal problems etc. This role requires spiritual maturity - wisdom etc rather than a spiritual gift. A person may be a gifted evangelist and save many people but they may be terrible at managing finances or listening to people's problems, so they are unsuited to be an elder. 1 Tim 3:1-2 describes the requirements of an elder. In the bible we find the apostles appointed elders in each church: Acts 14:23 "Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church" No where does the bible say that an apostle, pastor, prophet, evangelist or teacher was appointed in each church. This is where some "5-fold" churches which focus on appointing Apostles, Prophets etc (capital letters) as positions in the church have got it wrong. It is possible for a person to be involved in church administration as an elder only, or God's work only (as one of the 5-fold), or both church administration and God's work. For example, Peter was an apostle and also an elder in Jerusalem. If Peter was travelling and spreading the Good Word, then he was doing God's work as an apostle/evangelist. If Peter was at home in Jerusalem, then he was dealing with the practical matters of church administration. The "5 fold ministry" is related to God's spiritual work and the elders is related to the church administration. It is possible for a person to be involved in both, it is possible for an elder to function as a teacher "from the pulpit". This distinction is also seen in the churhces which have both pastors adn elders - like presbyterians/baptists. Normally the elders perform church administration roles, and the pastor will perform God's Work by conducting church services, teaching, evangelism, etc. The pastor may also be an elder. Elders are normally spiritually mature and well-regarded members of the congregation, who may not have a pastoral degree or theological qualification. A pastor however must normally have a degree and qualification of some kind. In the local churches, like the Brethren churches, we do not have pastors or pulpits, so we just have elders. If an elder teaches God's Word in the meeting, then they are functioning as teachers. If they travel and spread the gospel, they are functioning as evangelists. Quote:
I think it is unlikely to be a physical building when considering that God did not create a house for Adam and Eve or tell Adam and Eve to build houses and cities. The description of the New Earth parallels that of the old - with the tree of life, the river, etc. In the future, when there is no more death, sin, or violence, then houses or cities for comfort and protection will not be necessary. Wherever all the people of God are gathered together in the open air, that will be the New Jerusalem. Jesus feeding the crowd of 5000 people in the open air, paints a similar picture. Jesus himself also spent a lot of time in open air spaces, with his disciples. In the Old Testament, God himself preferred to dwell in a simple tent among his people rather than a grand building. In the future New Earth there will also be no need for privacy and security, so buildings will not be necessary. |
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05-12-2017 06:37 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: This is clearly the church at large. 1Corinth 2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours: Again, this is clearly the church at large. 2Corinth To the church of God in Corinth, together with all his holy people throughout Achaia: Perhaps this is closer to being written to some "proper church" while also being written to the "church at large". Galatians To the churches in Galatia: This is the closest to being written to some "proper churches" but then it is also plural. Ephesians To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: This is clearly written to the "church at large" |
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05-12-2017 06:33 PM | ||||||||
countmeworthy |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I have another question for you and everyone here. But since you specifically said Christianity takes it heritage from Judaism that is why the terminology "elders" for presbuteros carried over from Old testament to New Testament. Do you consider the LC/LSM as part of Christianity? I ask because by and large the denominations don't have elders on the pulpit. The only religious organization that has elders is LDS. I don't know if the LC/LSM still consider the 'leading brothers' elders as they did back in the 70s but that is what the leading brothers were called: ELDERS. And yes it is taken from the OT which is curious because the LC/LSM strongly supported Paul's teachings. In Ephesians Paul does not mention Elders in describing what the Pentecostals call the '5 fold ministry'. It is my opinion and that is all that it is, that Paul opened up a can of worms when he mentions them in 4:11 Quote:
I know for sure in the 70s Lee was considered the apostle of the age. So Lee was ok with calling himself or having others call him 'the apostle of the age' and he was ok for the leading brothers to be called 'elders' but he threw out the window the words 'pastors (shepherds), prophets, evangelists, teachers. Food for thought. Food for thought. Next. If the Holy city New Jerusalem is simply a metaphor, then God sitting on a throne, a physical Kingly chair is also a metaphor. Streets of Gold is also then a metaphor. Fruit that people eat as seen in the book of Revelation are also a metaphor. The Tree of Life, the River of Life is also a metaphor by your definition. Is this correct? On the one hand the Holy City New Jerusalem is a city with streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) and on the other hand she is the Bride of Christ. Again.. simply food for thought. |
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05-12-2017 04:32 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Exactly what that meant--whether he was writing to some "proper church" subset which represented the church (the LCM view), or to the church at large (my view)--WE CANNOT KNOW. You don't know for sure, nor do I. I have my opinion, you have yours. But that's all we have--opinions. And since we cannot know, your and the LCM's insistence on adhering to the stricter interpretation is unreasonable, and even irrational. When you don't know for sure you must give way to the more general denominator. Anything else is sectarian and divisive. |
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05-12-2017 03:18 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But it is not something prescribed in the scripture. So the fact that so many do not practice it is hardly unexpected. It is not the observed practice. And it stands opposed to the limits that Paul actually put on the Corinthians concerning several practices, including "prophesying." So, as Terry suggests, it needs oversight. And it is probably somewhat of a spiritual risk to make it such a regular and even major thing in your meetings. It is quite possible that the most significant "edifying" (meaning "building up") that is going on is the building up of personal emotions and sense of self worth (as opposed to worth in Christ) from engaging in the practice. In other words, the "edifying" may not be spiritual, but fleshly. |
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05-12-2017 11:42 AM | ||||||||
TLFisher |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
When you put other Christians down, to puff up the ministry you're receiving, that's not edifying. I've seen happen too often in prophesying meetings. |
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05-12-2017 07:50 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
And what he described in terms of the divisions was something very acrimonious, not like the situation among the denominations today. In fact, it would appear that the group you hold so dear as the "one true church" is the one that displays the most acrimony concerning other groups, calling them harlots, mooing cows, and more. I admit that there have been individuals in years past who did things like that. But that is not the general state among churches today. It is your blindness to the forced division created by your own group as you denigrate everyone for merely "having a name." He charged the Corinthians with having fights over which teacher each group was following. You won't find such in today's landscape. We admit that we do not see eye-to-eye on everything, but do not denigrate others for their honest stance before God. Can you say the same about your group? The answer is "no." They not only demand that everyone follow their way (which precludes there being any other group within a city where they already are) but also that they get in line with their teachings and ways. If you say that last statement is false, then why are individuals and even entire churches excised from your numbers for such failure? While the status of the "lampstand" was threatened in a case or two, for all the failings of the churches in the cities written to in Revelation, none were referred to as "genuine," "not genuine," or "false." They were all churches. Do you really think that the situation in the denominations today is worse than what was described in Thyatira? A place that was still represented as having a church. In those pesky denominations, if someone is wanting to teach in a different way than what the group prefers, they don't excommunicate them. But they might suggest that they would be happier and freer to follow the Lord as they understand it if they joined group C or D. Harmony is maintained in both groups and all can follow Christ without interference. Not the same where you are. You would exile them from all fellowship (since you consider the "fellowship" of other groups to not be genuine church) for merely failing to teach your way or for writing materials not approved by your denominational headquarters. And you cannot avoid the fact that the LRC is a denomination. Its leaders are chosen by a headquarters. They are required to have certain meetings that are directed as to all content, including which songs to sing, by that headquarters. If someone feels the urge to write something for the benefit of the people, it can only be published if that headquarters approves it. And they declare that if you are not part of them, you are effectively not in the church, but are cut off from the church. If you want to say that denominations are all about the name, then why is the format of the name important? You claim you have no name, but there has been more than one lawsuit to retrieve the name from the existing group when they no longer followed the edicts from the headquarters. Those lawsuits cannot be claimed to be erroneous and done only by the locals because LSM and/or DCP supported their efforts. And in at least one case, when the group no longer followed the headquarters, a small minority split off and file suit to retrieve the very meeting hall property from the main group. Again, supported by the headquarters through LSM and/or DCP. And you say it is not a denomination. Just fall on your sword and get it over with. The magical formula of the true church does not exist. The garlic room was never somewhere else, but within you own walls. It took years to get the stench off of my clothes. |
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05-11-2017 05:51 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
It seems to me that he wrote to specific households and individuals by name (see Romans 16:5), as if to single out the assemblies which he knew to be genuine assemblies. This is why Paul says greetings to this house and greetings to such and such in that house. Paul is not extending those greetings to the churches that he knows to be false. If there was an assembly at the time lead by a "super apostle" , those who are against Paul's writings, I think it would be easy for the churches faithful to Paul to know that and avoid them. Rather than pretend they are all in unity and part of the common faith. Writing to everyone including the churches of the super apostles and those holding erroneous beliefs just doesn't seem like a common sense thing to do. Particularly when elsewhere the bible says to avoid or have nothing to do with such people. I find this blog to be particularly insightful by an Associate Professor in the Humanities Division at York University in Toronto http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/20...corinth-nt-28/ Paul’s relations with various groups of Christians at Corinth had its ups and downs, but mostly downs it seems. In the time leading up to his writing of what we call 1 Corinthians (actually at least his second letter to them — see 1 Cor 5:9), there were divisions among different groups meeting in different homes, and there were also divisions between those who, in Paul’s view, thought they were superior either socially or spiritually. Some wealthier members with time for leisure were arriving early for the Lord’s supper and consuming all the better food and wine before the arrival of the lower class Christians who had to work for a living (11:17-34). Some Corinthians who felt they had a special connection with things spiritual were viewing their ability to receive divine messages in the form of seemingly nonsensical languages (“tongues”) as a sign of superiority over those who did not receive such messages (12-14). Some other Corinthians, like the woman Chloe, who was likely a leader, were concerned about the situation and communicated this to Paul by messenger (1:11). This blog by this professor (who to my knowledge has nothing to do with Lee/Nee) seems to paint a picture like we believe - one church per city consisting of various groups who should not have de-name-iated themselves, and Paul writing to try and get them to all stay together (at least, the genuine ones, non-genuine ones ,say Gnostic groups, I doubt Paul would ask them to come together in unity). As it implies Paul considered all of the believers in Corinth as part of the one church. No where does Paul address the various groups in a denominational way (the group of super apostle such and such). Paul was writing against divisions between different groups meeting in different homes. No one of those groups were said to be a particular denomination, they were simply different meetings of the one church in the city which did not consider themselves to be separate organizations and institutions like we see today (Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican etc). |
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05-11-2017 03:35 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
So there are really 4 kinds of persons: Apostles Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors (Shepherds/Teachers) Christianity takes it heritage from Judaism that is why the terminology "elders" for presbuteros carried over from Old testament to New Testament. In Scripture the role of presbuteros is not well defined, only defined are the episcopos and the diakonos. The presbuteros is thought to be leading men, who are spiritually older and more mature. Hence, the "leading brothers" is an appropriate term for the presbuteros. If we want to be particular about names, in the LC there are really no terms for the episcopos or the diakonos. The view of Lee/Nee was that the offices were never intended to be official positions in the church, but a matter of function and calling. e.g. pastors are those who perform the function of shepherding and teaching. The LC sees them as functions (things people do) not as particular offices or positions to hold. The LC also believes that all believers are priests, all can prophesy, all can be an evangelist or a pastor. The concept of particular people holding certain office or position in the church such as the Prophets of the old testament, ceased when the New Testament came about. I see it like this. There is really only one gift God gives us- the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13), and all gifts and functions are a result of the one gift. That is, anyone with the gift of the Spirit can operate in any of the 4 or 5 gifts as the Spirit wills. There is really no such thing in the bible of a person operating in only one of the gifts for their entire life (e.g. the apostle Paul, also functioned as a pastor, evangelist, prophet, miracle worker etc). A person who the Spirit uses to operate in one of the gifts more than others might be known or recognized according to that gift (e.g. a person who evangelizes much might be known as an evangelist, but this is not to say that the same person cannot teach in a church). John 14:2 - many mansions or better - abodes. The Father's house is the body of Christ, the temple, God's dwelling place. God's dwelling place is mankind, or us - Revelation 21:2..Therefore we are the many abodes of the Father/Son. Lee/Nee did not believe that "the Father's house" or the New Jerusalem is a physical city as in a building. It is a metaphor to describe God's people. Just like the metaphor "temple" is used to describe our bodies (we are temples of the Spirit etc). |
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05-11-2017 11:49 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The KJV translation of "mansions," or even "manor or manse," partly transliterates this Greek word into English, but wrongly connotes large, private, individual homes for each believer for the future only. Little Kittel (p.582): "In the NT the word occurs only twice in John. In 14.2 it denotes the abiding dwelling (in contrast with our transitory earthly state) that Christ prepares for His people in His Father's house. In 14.23, however,the abode is on earth, for Christ and the Father will come to believers and make their home with them... In both of these verses, the reference is individual rather than universal or eschatological. Salvation consists of union with God and Christ through their dwelling in believers and their taking believers to dwell in them. The "mone" brings out the indestructibility of the union." This means, in part, that our "mansion" in the Father's house is both today and forever, and is not physical, but spiritual in nature. |
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05-11-2017 11:11 AM | ||||||||
countmeworthy |
Re: The Unique Move of God I have a question for those who were or are more enveloped in "the Unique Move of God" than I ever was. In the 70s, the 'leading brothers' were called 'elders' not pastors. Elders is an OT word. Yet, PAUL describes certain offices in Ephesians 4:11 Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; In other letters we read about bishops (overseers) and deacons (ministers) No blended brothers are mentioned in the scriptures though Did Lee ever give any reason why those offices mentioned in the bible were ignored by him and possibly Nee? They ARE in the scriptures after all. Personally, I think naming these offices invited the religious 'spirits'. The RCC has bishops as do some denominations. Pastors, prophets, evangelists and teachers. These 'offices' ended up elevating man. 2nd question How did Lee explain the many mansions mentioned in John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Thanks in advance |
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05-11-2017 10:03 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Whether it was within certain ones meeting separately from those who were noted as not going along with the error is never stated in any form. Yet you seem to talk about it as if the term church is simply synonymous with both a single assembly and the city in which that assembly is found. I find no such implication. The only reason that we ever thought it was that simple was because someone once said it was yet ever bothered to say why. I know that you do not subscribe to the inferred teaching of one church in a city, yet the rest of what you say concerning the letters in Revelation "infers" that it must be understood that way. If there is no church-city equivalence, then referring to the body of Christ (and not specific assemblies, whether singular or plural) in that city would be correct to call according to the city. You wouldn't write to the Baptists who are in Dallas if you meant to cover all the believers. You would write to the church in Dallas (not to be confused with the group meeting on Meandering Way and using that as their name). The church in Dallas, as the body of Christ, is composed of many Christians who meet in many assemblies that have various names of all kinds. There is no conflict in this. Quote:
It is mostly brought into the conversations to differentiate and marginalize. Much like the "c" word recently discussed. "Not genuine" is an unfounded overlay onto the body of Christ that marginalizes and demeans brothers and sisters in Christ. Jesus prayed that we would be one. Those who find ways to dismiss others are exercised to see to it that only they count and their lack of being one with others can instead be transformed into the only true oneness. |
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05-11-2017 09:45 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-11-2017 07:57 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
This was based on their ideal that no name was the right name, thus negating all manners of evil. |
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05-11-2017 07:30 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
So whereas there is a very clear word concerning Jesus coming in the flesh, or how to have the Lord's table meeting, or about the requirement to baptize, there is no such teaching on the boundaries of the city and how they relate to church administration. Also, you might want to rethink or restate the part about the church being identified. Each letter gives very distinct description that would identify Laodicea from Philadelphia from Ephesus. It surely does tell you how to identify them. To infer that these seven are representative of genuine churches throughout the age is, once again, an inferred teaching that is never given in black and white. To take that inference further and say that if your gathering does not fit one of these seven models it is not a genuine church would surely be unwarranted and without any real basis. |
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05-11-2017 07:20 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God But the only thing it clearly indicates is that the body of Christ was to be found in those cities. It does not define the "boundaries" of an assembly, or the manner in which it should be identified. |
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05-11-2017 07:18 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Evidence that evidence is of no importance to those who argue in that manner. That reason is left at the door with their opinions and even their brains so that they will not be hindered by thinking. |
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05-11-2017 07:17 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I would think that the idea of a large meeting hall for a hundred or more Christians is highly unlikely in a period where there is persecution, so by necessity they had to be "underground" in houses and small gatherings. |
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05-11-2017 06:43 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Paul said there were those who were preaching Christ to try to hurt him. He talked of the "super apostles" who obviously were in competition with him. Are you saying those apostles had no followers? Are you saying the apostles were in different groups and loyalties and the common believers were not? That makes no sense. How would you know this? Again, it just seems you are seeing things the way you want to, without real evidence to support your conclusions. I think it is possible that the reason Paul addressed his letters to the church in the city was not because there was only one church or group of Christians there, but because he didn't want to favor one over the other. He wanted to reach all the Christians. Sometimes he didn't even address "the church," as in Romans. There he just addressed the believers directly. He doesn't mention the "church in Rome." In reality any group of believers is "the Church." You can't take that away from them. And again, if you are going to base your beliefs on biblical patterns, you have to acknowledge that your practice of proclaiming who is a church and who isn't is not Biblical. |
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05-11-2017 05:11 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
These contradictions to Lee's church model have been cited repeatedly, yet you refuse to acknowledge these Scriptures. John's Revelation seems to imply the one church one city model, yet when we study the rest of the N.T., that theory is not supported. |
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05-11-2017 05:10 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God OMG, you can't make this stuff up. |
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05-11-2017 05:09 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matt 7:15 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matt 24:14 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Mark 13:22 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Cor 11:13 false brethren 2Cor 11:26 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: Gal 2:4 Yes, we are told to beware of false prophets, false teachings, false brethren, being seduced by them and being brought into bondage by them. But how? 15*Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. It is very clear that the way to identify them, prescribed by the Lord is by their fruit. False prophet + damnable heresy + false brethren + fruit of false prophet + bondage = false church / cult |
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05-11-2017 04:57 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The reason the bible does not talk about false churches is because at the time there was only one church per city. There was only one church per town/city as even Christian evangelical websites recognize, such as gotquestions.org: https://www.gotquestions.org/church-hopping.html The early church consisted of small groups of Christians meeting in homes or in public places. There is no indication in Scripture that towns or cities had more than one group of believers meeting there. So it would not make sense for Paul at the time to write about avoiding "false churches". "Fortunately, only tiny, fringe groups make such claims now. The RCC used to do it. " - Used to? see https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...icism.religion "It is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to [Protestant communities] http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/comm...why-hes-wrong/ |
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05-11-2017 04:50 AM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Else Thyatira would never have received their letter. |
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05-10-2017 08:18 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
But what's interesting is the Bible never says nor implies that we should discern what is and isn't a church. Never. There is no place in the NT where a writer talks about a "false church." Some churches are rebuked for being in error, but no group is ever directly or indirectly said to be "false." I would say this is more evidence that the impulse to find some standard for deciding whether a group is or isn't a "church" is completely wrong-headed, and it exposes a huge error of the Local Church Movement. To say that this group is church because they do this and this, and another isn't because they do that and that (assuming no gross sin) is not in keeping with the Lord's heart. I believe the Lord gives us neither the wisdom nor the commission to do that. And with good reason. If he did, then the back and forth claims of "you are not a church" would be never-ending and fatal to the Lord's testimony. Fortunately, only tiny, fringe groups make such claims now. The RCC used to do it. How did that work out for the Lord, eh? Sure, there has to be some point where a group of so-called Christians are so off-the-mark that they become no longer a church. But long before that point most real seekers would have left anyway, because the conditions which led to that ultimate losing of the lampstand would have already become blatantly obvious. |
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05-10-2017 08:05 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Nee and Lee desired to define what a practical church was because they wanted to be able to claim their groups were indeed churches (and possibly so they could claim others were not). The problem is although they came up with a definition, it is not one the Bible defines, it is one manufactured by focusing on certain patterns in the Bible (local churches) and making them rules, while ignoring other patterns in the Bible (house churches, regional churches, and that the Bible does not clearly define what a "practical church" is, nor ever asks us to discern what one is). Their advantage, if you want to call it that, is that they felt they could confidently claim their groups were churches and other groups were not. Their disadvantage was that they became strident and ultimately sectarian and even divisive. They also became ultimately absurd. Lee probably wouldn't have said that the Church was not visible before the localism of his movement. Yet that was the upshot of his doctrines, because he claimed that the Church could only be expressed through local churches. Well, if the church can only be expressed through local churches, then that means without local church nothing of the Church could have been expressed. So which was it? If the Church was seen before localism, then localism is not required to express the Church. But if localism is required to express the Church, then it was not seen before localism: ergo, no Church seen on earth for centuries. This is know as reducio ad absurdum, taking an idea to its logical and absurd conclusion, and thus showing it to be most likely false. |
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05-09-2017 06:59 PM | ||||||||
SteVee |
Re: The Lord's Table and the Disciple's Meeting Great responses. Worthy of a thoughtful reply, and I'll try to do so later this week. One question I'll answer right away, though is your statement about "true" churches. " For example, if you are going to use this as the model for all true churches would you then say that if all are not free to speak it is not a true church?" If I said "true" church, I apologize. "Healthy" would be a better word. The Lord Jesus Christ saves individuals and calls them to follow Him, and gather with others to - among many other things - encourage and be encouraged to follow Him. Careful personal Bible study with the intent of growing closer to Him in character, practice, attitude and ... (add many other descriptive phrases) is every disciples responsibility. Sharing what we learn, what sin we've been convicted of, what loving encouragement we've received from the Savior, what specific answer prayer we've received is spiritual exercise and edifies the body, encouraging other's to expect the reality of Christ in their lives. It is easy, I might dare say normative, for church to become like a movie or concert that we attend, and afterward talk about (insert hobby, vocation or family circumstance here) without ever stirring one another up in the "most holy faith" or encouraging one another in love and good works. That isn't healthy. In the kind of meeting I am speaking of - which is distinct from and does not replace a meeting where apostolic doctrine is taught - if the saints don't seek the Lord during the week, there is awkward silence. In fact there is a fair amount of prayerful silence as God impresses the mature and young to call for a hymn, to speak out in prayer, or to "prophesy" i.e. Speak revealed truth from the written Word of God, that has convicted or encouraged them. It is stunning, how different people - from older children to adults - can share anything from one verse, to a Two or three minute monologue, and without their corroboration, a theme arises that the Holy Spirit wants to communicate to the body. That type of interaction is spiritual exercise is as exciting as a highly specific answered prayer. Both of you deserve a more careful Scriptural reply, not as an argument, but maybe as an iron sharpening iron exercise. Thanks for your thoughtful responses. |
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05-09-2017 06:35 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God I think the point SteVee is making is that in the "free churches", there is ample opportunity for people to prophesy if they wish to. Not so in most denominations. In the free churches there are often long pauses and breaks in the meeting to allow the Spirit to move, so people have opportunity to speak. In denominational churches, a 10 minute break would be a disaster in terms of "running the service" and the pastor would be hurrying people up to take care of the microphone. Furthermore, in a denominational church, if one stands up during the service it would be counted as an unwanted disruption. In a pentecostal church, people cannot last 10 minutes without praying in tongues. The liturgical denominations especially provide no opportunity. Many denominations do not even believe in prophesy (cessationists), or they believe in the version of prophesy which is more or else "fortune telling" or the sorts of prophecies that Nostradamus made. the bible says: 1 Cor 14:1 eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. The purpose of prophesy is to build/edify the church: 1 Cor 14:3-4 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. Paul says "every one of you" should prophesy: 1 Cor 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. Paul did not forbid them all prophesying, as long as it was done in an orderly way. The instruction of "two or three "prophesying was not to place a limit on the prophesying, but a way to limit the confusion and do things in an orderly way. I don't know why anyone would want to limit the building and edification of the church by restricting the prophesying. In the Recovery, not only are there breaks and opportunities to speak, but we dedicate a whole hour or more to the prophesying meeting. Denominational services which last 2 hours are padded with various performances and entertainment. They usually do not have dedicated time for prophesying. |
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05-09-2017 06:26 PM | ||||||||
SteVee |
Re: The Lord's Table and the Disciple's Meeting Quote:
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05-09-2017 05:29 PM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Lord's Table and the Disciple's Meeting The doctrine of the "Sufficiency of Scripture" implies that it has everything we need for life and godliness. (SteVee) But having everything we need for life and godliness (a point that I constantly insist stands against Lee's "wait for the dispensing" teaching) is quite different from "spelling out" for us everything that we need. (OBW) OBW -- Why can't a verse that says we have all that we need for life and godliness be the essential basis and meaning for the "doctrine of sufficiency of Scripture"? I believe that 1 Corinthians 11 - 14 provides enough breadth, context, and detail to describe what the New Testament church was as an example to future generations. (Stevee) Actually, I think that these chapters provide a broad enough framework as to be very inexact. • They are written into a truly dysfunctional situation yet there is little direction beyond recognition of the variety of "gifts" that are in the body and that all are needful (don't cut off the toes as unnecessary). • The meeting is open, but not altogether. Oversight is required. And restraint. • I'll get to the "all can" in a minute. But there is nothing in what is provided that defines how. Just gives some principles that were needed in Corinth because of their three-ring circus of competing groups and probably a lot of "show offs." A meeting with a single table and one piece of crisp unleavened bread and a single glass of wine around which a meeting begins according to a particular structure of song topics (in order), with a breaking of the bread in a particular way by two or more persons, then the passing of the elements around the room is a fully acceptable way to do it. But it is not found in 1 Corinthians or anywhere else. Neither is the typical LRC way of doing other meetings. They are not necessarily "wrong." But they are not simply "right" and especially not the "preferred" or even "only" way to do them. The point of the Lord's table is not the form in which it is done. It is that when it is done, you remember. The Lord. His death. Those are the things specified. The rest is preferences and everyone's are not the same. (OBW) SteVee -- I do have the same feeling, except I feel it is the entire book, I would not limit it to 11-14. OBW -- a "broad enough framework" is not contrary to what SteVee shared about having "enough breadth" to be an example for all future churches, despite the wide variation. We can debate whether the "how" is provided. I don't disagree that it is not provided in chapter 14, but if you look at the entire book with that in mind it is there. 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 describes a church meeting where "all" disciples are free to speak forth what the Lord has been making real to them in their life in an orderly manner. (Stevee) First, the content of those who are described as participating as "prophets" is not defined as "what the Lord has been making real in their lives." Second, there is first a restraint to "2 or three" within which the remainder of that part of the passage refers. It does not start by saying that there should be 2 or 3 prophets, then just toss it aside and declare that "all can prophesy" meaning the entire congregation. That is a gross misunderstanding of the meaning and structure of the passage. The passage as a whole has put a limit on certain things. It has limited the exhibition of tongues to a very little and only if someone is present to interpret it (which means someone who can understand that tongue is present). Then it gets to "prophets" and says "2 or 3." Now what is that supposed to mean if you think that the "all can prophesy" reaches beyond them to all present? It has made a mockery of Paul's opening words on that subject. Now I am not saying that there cannot also be a third part of the meeting that in the Pentecostal circles used to be called as "testimony meeting." But that would be something other than the 2 or three who "prophesy." (OBW) SteVee -- the problem with "all are free to speak" is in the practice. This is really where OBW can make a strong case concerning the "how". For example, if you are going to use this as the model for all true churches would you then say that if all are not free to speak it is not a true church? Also, how would you define "free to speak"? Would it be in a large meeting, what if you are free to speak in smaller meetings? OBW -- when it says "all can prophesy" I don't understand that to mean that all 100 attendees can prophesy, but rather all members of the body of Christ can (have the ability or potential to) prophesy. As a result when 2 or 3 can prophesy it doesn't mean to imply that there is an office of "prophet" who will stand up and speak every week. Rather it means that any of those attendees, at some time or other, as the Lord leads, can prophesy. |
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05-09-2017 04:20 PM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: The Lord's Table and the Disciple's Meeting Quote:
Quote:
The point of the Lord's table is not the form in which it is done. It is that when it is done, you remember. The Lord. His death. Those are the things specified. The rest is preferences and everyone's are not the same. Quote:
The passage as a whole has put a limit on certain things. It has limited the exhibition of tongues to a very little and only if someone is present to interpret it (which means someone who can understand that tongue is present). Then it gets to "prophets" and says "2 or 3." Now what is that supposed to mean if you think that the "all can prophesy" reaches beyond them to all present? It has made a mockery of Paul's opening words on that subject. Now I am not saying that there cannot also be a third part of the meeting that in the Pentecostal circles used to be called as "testimony meeting." But that would be something other than the 2 or three who "prophesy." |
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05-08-2017 07:33 PM | ||||||||
SteVee |
The Lord's Table and the Disciple's Meeting Quote:
The doctrine of the "Perspicuity of Scripture" means that the Scripture is adequately clear. The doctrine of the "Sufficiency of Scripture" implies that it has everything we need for life and godliness. Another starting presupposition for me is that we as individuals are first and foremost called to be disciples of Christ, and as such have and need no intermediaries. We are priests of God. God the Holy Spirit distributes gifts as He wills, and not all have the same gifts, but all are equal in Christ - as man and woman are equal in worth - but we have differing roles in the body. I believe that 1 Corinthians 11 - 14 provides enough breadth, context, and detail to describe what the New Testament church was as an example to future generations. These combined with 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, Ephesians 4 and others paint a picture of the church offices of elders who shepherd the flock exercising over sight, and servants (aka deacons). 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 describes a church meeting where "all" disciples are free to speak forth what the Lord has been making real to them in their life in an orderly manner. This is not practiced as the "main" service in any assembly that I have been a part of except an open brethren assembly that I attended more than 20 years ago. Most churches have no meeting like that at all, and most are highly planned and organized by the pastoral staff, leaving no room for the disciples to be exercised. Believers become "attendees". While this "control" in most churches isn't cult-like in the mold of LSM that I have read here and other places, it is stifling to spiritual growth except to the naturally intelligent, who are considered spiritual. I would like to suggest, that a Lord's table meeting where all are free to share is the "baby" that you should keep from the LC/LSM/the Lord's Recovery and throw out all of the other abusive, personality cultish stuff that is documented on this site. Don't exchange a cultish intermediary between you and Christ for a more traditional intermediary non-cultish, but equally wrong, over planned, professional pastorate. Some of us who have never (or in my case only once) stepped foot in an LC meeting have been deeply wounded by immoral, unscrupulous, carnal leaders in various Protestant churches including having marriages broken or teen children led astray, and not to greater commitment to Christ, but to compromised morals and moral confusion. |
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05-08-2017 12:24 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: What is the New Testament Quote:
This little story exposed for me the utter nonsense that the Recovery had somehow "recovered" the way to break bread ... The sisters took turns making the bread, and one week a college sister made the bread out of whole wheat flour. It was out of convention, so my wife who was coordinating the service asked me if WHOLE WHEAT flour was OK. I said something like "it seemed good to me and the Holy Spirit." But when the leading sister in the church saw it before the meeting, she tore it up, and demanded another bread be used. So later on I researched bleached white flour and learned that it was developed around the end of the 19th century. That was all I needed to know. For 19 centuries the church was doing the Lord's Table Meeting all wrong because they must have been using whole wheat flour. At some point in our history, a perfectly acceptable way of making bread become THE WAY to make the bread. We had thus established the bread making ORDINANCE in the body of Christ. A way became THE WAY. This extra Biblical ordinance was thus added to our Bible. It was added to the growing list in our Official Recovery Book Of Bible Amendments. We could now feel completely justified in comdemning all others who differed from us. And we did! |
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05-08-2017 09:24 AM | ||||||||
OBW |
Re: What is the New Testament Quote:
The NT reveals no particular Form. But it reveals enough that certain Forms could be understood as meeting what is revealed. In other words, the way of "doing the table" in the Brethren, the LRC and some others is within the boundaries of what is revealed by the NT. But there is nothing which makes those "what is revealed in the NT" in such a way that they are the way it should be done. |
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05-08-2017 05:22 AM | ||||||||
ZNPaaneah |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The church is not defined as being true based on the maturity of the believers. I was recently touched by James 1:1. It seems clear to me, based on this book, that the errors made by the apostles was instrumental in their ministry. Peter's denial helped him once he repented to stand strong in opening the kingdom to the gentiles. Paul's persecution of the Body helped him see the Body once the scales fell from his eyes. James was the head of a personality cult, bringing in the "judaizers" until the Lord appeared to him and he repented. Mark became impressed with Jesus as a slave after he ditched his responsibility with Paul. But I didn't know how to encapsulate this idea until I read James 1:1 James, a bond servant. James had a debt, the Lord paid it and in return he was serving the Lord. This gave him the clear conscience to serve the Lord while at the same time never forgetting his past error. I think we can all have that experience. James error didn't disqualify the church, rather it gave him a burden. The book is written to the 12 tribes in the dispersion. Clearly that is an OT concept and indicates these ones, like James in the past, do not have a clear vision. But he refers to them as his brothers in the Lord. This is the right attitude. They were being tried, their religion was falling apart, everything they thought they knew was coming undone, and they were being persecuted by both Jews and Romans. But James view is to count it all joy and that the rich should rejoice when they are brought low. That is a very interesting concept, Why? The picture in James 1 is of a flower. The flower has withered and died but the seeds have been dispersed. This is why they should rejoice. They were that flower that burst and dispersed the seeds. |
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05-07-2017 11:49 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You are basically saying that the new move was claimed after let's call it the "real" new move was over - or at least that period of LC history that people on here seem to recall as being mostly positive. But then we are told that if our church is in a poor condition it is the Lord's will. A church in a poor condition does not mean it is not a true church. So we could interpret those graphs as saying the Lord has not left the denominations at all, the condition of the church has no bearing on whether or not it is a genuine church. |
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05-07-2017 11:46 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
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05-07-2017 04:44 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The Church is always visible somehow. Your error is in thinking it must be visible in some kind of cut-and-dried practical organization. There is no reason to believe this. For decades the Church in China was only visible in home churches with a few members, because that's the only thing the government allowed. But visible it was. God is not limited by your insistence on a particular local organization of a church for the Church to be visible, or valid. But actually now you are contradicting yourself. Because if the true Church can only be embodied in LCM-like local churches, then by that definition it was invisible for at least 1700 years. Yet you just said saying it can be invisible is a false view. So either the Church has been visible in every century since Christ ascended, in which case localism is not necessary for a valid expression of the Church, or the Church was invisible until the Brethren and Nee came along with localism, which is to say that the Lord had no visible Church on the earth for centuries. |
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05-07-2017 04:17 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I wouldn't say the Lord has left the denominations. I would just say it's clear that what is there is not totally meeting the needs of believers and seekers. Denominations are somewhat stuck in tradition and protocol, as the LCM is now as well. This limits the Lord. People are moving to the community churches because those groups are not bound to the constricting doctrines and other limitations of more traditional denominations. I think many people are becoming uncomfortable with unnecessary distinctions as well. But the Lord appears wherever people gather in his name, and that should be good enough for any of us. Quote:
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05-07-2017 04:13 PM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Everyone now knows there is one Church and we are all part of it. The problem occurs when people say their groups are valid expressions of the one Church and others are not. Doing that is divisive. |
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05-07-2017 04:05 PM | ||||||||
Ohio |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Your (lack of) knowledge of church history duplicates that of your mentor. |
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05-07-2017 03:38 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
I think most Christians might understand "the Lord's unique move" as Revivals. The next big revival is often seen as a "new thing" (unique?) the Lord is doing. |
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05-07-2017 03:29 PM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
You seem to take issue with any group that calls itself the one true church or one true way. However when we think about it, for hundreds of years Christians had no issue with a belief there is only one true church. Why do we take issue with this today? I think you'll find many more quotes too from Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist (successionism), so these must also be "arrogant, self-obsessed groups". Are you willing to say that about these? It may surprise you or others on here, that Luther wrote,"The true church must appear or be visible in the world. But it can only appear in a covering (larva), a veil, a shell, or some kind of clothes which a man can grasp, otherwise it can never be found". The Lutheran theologian Ernst Kinder said: "One may distinguish between an outward belonging to the church and true membership in the body of Christ-distinguish, that is, but not separate, for we possess the latter only through the former". Luther and other Reformers were very clear on the matter of a true church versus a false church. Of course Luther had the Roman Catholic church in mind as the false church. A view that a true church does not exist, or that it is not visible, is a false view, and possibly a result of being affected by new-age mumbo jumbo. |
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05-07-2017 07:53 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
If you are remaining in the LCM because you believe it is the "one true way on earth today" then you have validated most of the complaints on this board that you claim you don't recognize--because that belief leads to all the fear, manipulation, abuse and damage that those complaints testify of. When any subset group of the Church holds the belief that it is "one true way," abuse within that subset group is unavoidable. History cites no exceptions that I know of. Please pray about it. |
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05-07-2017 07:01 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
The LCM is basically doing nothing different than what any arrogant, self-obsessed group claiming to be the "one true way" has done. The LCM is just more creative and clever with its rationalization of it. I don't know if you've seen this, but below is something I posted a while back. It shows how groups thinking they are special and unique is nothing new and is an error that has been repeated over and over down through history. As I said, the LCM is more creative and clever with its rationalization of special status. Rather than say they have the "right doctrines," they say things like they are "the continuation of the one ministry." Rather than say they are the "one true church," they say they are the "proper manifestation of the church." But it doesn't matter because the intent is the same and adds up to the same error. You want to believe you are better than everyone else to the point that you are the only valid group. You are not trying to help others get it right as much as you are trying to validate your group and discredit all others. That's not ministry, that's self-aggrandiziation. And as the record below shows, it is an error that has occurred many times in history--which is, ironically, more proof you are nothing special. What's funny is that #16 sounds just like something you would say. WHO SAID IT??
http://www.letusreason.org/cult12.htm http://www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm[/QUOTE] __________________ |
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05-07-2017 06:28 AM | ||||||||
Cal |
Re: The Unique Move of God Quote:
Clearly Christians are less and less interested in denominational labels. That should make you happy. But you keep acting as if nothing has changed. The denominations are the red herring you use to bash any group other than the LCM. You obsess about them because they are an easier target for you. |
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05-07-2017 12:45 AM | ||||||||
Evangelical |
Re: What is the New Testament Quote:
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