Originally Posted by Trapped

FYI least, Drake could be on DCP's staff and still answer "no" to the question you posed since you said LSM specifically. On the https://afaithfulword.org/articles/AttacksOnLSM/ portion of the site LSM (or whoever) makes it a point to separate DCP from LSM (see the Direct Falsehoods section, points 3-6, approximately)......even though we all know they are not really separate.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Actually, not to stick my head into the flying bullets here, but on this specific point of Ohio's that you quoted and bolded Drake, Ohio is not paranoid. DCP monitors (and more) this forum. And there is a lot included in that "and more".

Originally Posted by Ohio

What other ministry on earth has their own in-house Legal Team called the Defense and Confirmation Project, ready and willing to strike their every enemy, including this forum.

Originally Posted by Drake

What?!

You’re paranoid buddy. Irrational.

Originally Posted by Ohio

What other ministry on earth has their own in-house Legal Team called the Defense and Confirmation Project, ready and willing to strike their every enemy, including this forum.

Originally Posted by Drake

Oh... let me look... nope, you’re wrong ... 1Corinthians 6.. right there between 5 & 7. A wonderful chapter. I wonder if you read it carefully before you go off on your reviling slanderous rants?

Originally Posted by Drake

Feeling ok?

You are talking somewhat incoherently or in nebulous terms. Why don’t you just say plainly what happened when, with who, how, and why are you being so protective of “user Brother”? Is his name one that is never to be mentioned?

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's not us who wrote I Corinthians 6, but since LSMers go by the Book of Lee, it's not in your Bible.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Once again you twist all your info for evil. I already gave you your source long ago. I told you why he turned on TC. He alone wrote the only personal loan. And by the time these events occurred he was gone ... Only to return to cause much trouble. And to work with BP to seize properties.

And this is your justification for LSM's lawsuits -- one brother's personal offenses? What a shame!

This brother was a user, he used others and he used me.

Originally Posted by Drake

Here's the thing. Both in Mansfield and Columbus Titus Chu appointed elders who claimed for themselves " the authority" and all the saints had to obey them. Those who disagreed were told to meet somewhere else. Those who disagreed but refused to leave were excommunicated, locked out of the meeting hall, berated publicly in meetings, etc. Those that remained had to cough up some tithes, do what the elders tell them to do, and expect significant portion of their offering to go to Titus Chu’s work. Once the proxy elders controlled the finances there appeared to be no stopping them.

Some in this forum are fond of criticizing these believers for seeking help from the courts. They say "why not be wronged?" Or "its not christian! "... well, that is easy to say... as long as it is not YOUR house being taken away.Those obedience demanding elders should have been slapped down sooner. They hid their unscriptural heavy handedness behind erroneous teachings..". I'm the authority here now, you must do what I say, you must obey me".... well, apparently not.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

By 2005 there were a few remaining loans from the saints ... the amount above the loans borrowed was over $34k... also borrowed at the high variable interest rate loan from a bank. In the same year the elders diverted 37% of the offerings from the saints, or over $50k to Titus Chu’s projects.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, I’ll change my forum name to “California “ and become the forum expert for all things California.

Visiting a place, helping to build a meeting hall, knowing some folks... it’s all well and good (I’ve done it myself) but you don’t know dates, facts, related to Mansfield.

Sorry Ohio, I’ve assumed you knew something but your inability to provide additional facts, dates, etc. makes it pointless to expect a meaningful contribution from you on this topic. You’ll still contribute, but in your typical MO... carry on.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Since Ohio punted about the financial mismanagement of the Titus appointed proxy elders in Columbus then I will offer these facts.

The saints in the church in Columbus stood on the ground of oneness since 1977. Two properties were acquired and developed by the saints , one on East 15th Ave. and another added in the early eighties that of Sinclair Rd. The saints contributed their lives, livelihoods, and their finances. It is also commendable that the church in Columbus managed their properties very well exercising fiscal prudence and generous giving and loans. That is what went well.

Shortly after Titus Chu appointed 3 elders in Columbus that all changed.

The elders not only took out high interest loans to pay off the low or no interest loans ( from saints) but took out a high interest loan including tens of thousands above the payoff amount. And, no one should be surprised about this, starting in 2002 through 2006 these elders diverted over $140,000 to Titus Chus work WITHOUT the saints knowledge. So, in short they took a fiscally stable situation and turned it into a fiscally risky one even jeopardizing the assets of the church in Columbus.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

By 2005 there were a few remaining loans from the saints ... the amount above the loans borrowed was over $34k... also borrowed at the high variable interest rate loan from a bank. In the same year the elders diverted 37% of the offerings from the saints, or over $50k to Titus Chu’s projects.

Drake

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What a shame. Why would all of these elders sign off on that for a measly $34k?

Maybe Ohio knows too, what was the cash position like at that time? The whole thing seems odd.

Originally Posted by Drake

By 2005 there were a few remaining loans from the saints ... the amount above the loans borrowed was over $34k... also borrowed at the high variable interest rate loan from a bank. In the same year the elders diverted 37% of the offerings from the saints, or over $50k to Titus Chu’s projects.

Drake

Originally Posted by leastofthese

So all of the elders signed the loan agreement? They used property as collateral that already had a lien against it or were the loans from the saints for something else? Did they finance through a bank?

You said they took out a high interest loan to pay off a low interest loan-then netted a little extra to send to a Titus Chu related fund? All for $10-$20 grand?

Originally Posted by Drake

The elders appointed by Titus Chu and all the properties at Sinclair Rd.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Who signed for this loan and what did they use as collateral?

Originally Posted by Ohio

I only know what I read on this forum???

I lived and served in the Midwest Church life for 30 years. I know these people personally. Back in 1976 I helped to build Mansfield's meeting hall. Been there many times since then.

You, however, only know Benson Philip's one page talking points. Only you believe what you have written here, and they truly are not believable.

Originally Posted by Drake

The elders not only took out high interest loans to pay off the low or no interest loans ( from saints) but took out a high interest loan including tens of thousands above the payoff amount. And, no one should be surprised about this, starting in 2002 through 2006 these elders diverted over $140,000 to Titus Chus work WITHOUT the saints knowledge. So, in short they took a fiscally stable situation and turned it into a fiscally risky one even jeopardizing the assets of the church in Columbus.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Since you were a treasurer in the local church do venture to educate us of the wisdom of the financial actions the elders in Columbus took...... assuming you know.

Originally Posted by Drake

People will think what they want to think. I am just happy to get facts on the table because for years you have strutted about this forum with all bluster about Mansfield and Columbus, a one stop shop for all knowledge about things Midwest, but once the facts are known it is apparent you only know what you read in this forum and are only interested in parroting Titus Chu talking points. For someone who claims to care about the little guy you sure have demonstrated a callous disregard for those who suffered at the heavy hands of proxy elders and the Detroit coworker in Mansfield with financial schemes to extract tithes in exchange for the right to partake of the Lords table and to subsequently divert those offerings to Titus Chus ministry.

Given an opportunity to list the facts about dates and people you reference you did what anyone who doesn’t know about things they purport to know... you punted!

Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then what shall other posters consider about talking with you?

Originally Posted by Drake

In other words, you don’t know the dates of the events, you don’t know when and who appointed David Ethel to the eldership in Mansfield, and you are clueless as to the publication date of those newspaper articles.

The only thing you know about Mansfield is what Norm and Suanne wrote in this forum. In other words, talking with you about Mansfield is a complete waste of time.

Got it.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

You don't want facts. You never did. You only use facts to spin the truth.

But thanks for all the blow back. It enables the readers (lurkers) to see the thugs from the Lazy Swamp Ministry in action at some tiny rural church in Ohio while the health of their aged minister slowly deteriorated.

The Lazy Swamp thief comes to steal and kill and destroy, Jesus came that they might have life and may have it abundantly. (John 10.10)

Originally Posted by Drake

Furthermore, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation had the base of operations in Cleveland not plundered and pillaged Mansfield and Columbus. Thankfully, someone heard the cry of precious saints, who decided to take a stand, who had given their lives and livelihoods to those churches. At least, to be consistent, I would have expected you to stand up and cheer them on for resisting the plundering and pillaging of their church.

So, how far is Kampala from Cleveland? A fair distance I think.

Drake

Originally Posted by awareness

So call in headquarters? Let the one and only authority on the earth step in ... and join the thievery?

Originally Posted by Drake

Awareness,

Since that is dog you brought to this fight then I am looking for consistency.

You are applying “a local matter”, a term normally reserved for the jurisdiction of a local church to a regional work. In so doing, you now have introduced a complication, where does a local matter end? Why not, then call anything in the USA a local matter... local to the country? Your objection was that coworkers who were “thousands” of miles away should not get involved because it is a local matter. I’ll agree with you there was a Midwest problem but I don’t agree with you that thousands of miles is too far and hundreds of miles are okay. Furthermore, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation had the base of operations in Cleveland not plundered and pillaged Mansfield and Columbus. Thankfully, someone heard the cry of precious saints, who decided to take a stand, who had given their lives and livelihoods to those churches. At least, to be consistent, I would have expected you to stand up and cheer them on for resisting the plundering and pillaging of their church.

Originally Posted by Drake

Simple questions if you know the answers.

What are the dates? and by whom and when was David Etzel appointed as elder in Mansfield?

If you know just answer... if not, you can keep running.

We want your facts... not your spin.

Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dates? GPS Coordinates? Reporters? Atomic clock?

Rabbit Holes Indeed.

Check the links yourself.

Originally Posted by Drake

When did this happen , the date..... and who was David Etzel appointed by and when?

Facts. Put the facts on the table.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Dates, where are the dates?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's a couple news clips concerning the lawsuits in Columbus for the interested readers ...

The LSM "Lazy Swamp Ministry" brought much shame to our Lord's name.

"Suing Church" At It Again In Columbus

.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, read this from a local news report:

Ministry Group Harasses Church (Mansfield, OH)—It was a bizarre Sunday morning for the members of a non-denominational church called ‘The Church in Mansfield.’ A group of people, some ex-members of the church and some from out of state, rose up during the service and announced that they were there to take over the church premises. When church leaders told them to leave, they refused to do so, even after the police were called.

When the group did leave, it pledged to continue a strategy of harassment until the church was driven off of its property. A member of the invasive group publicly revealed that California-based Living Stream Ministry President Benson Phillips had coached them to fight against the church and take its meeting facility. The Living Stream Ministry formally denies controlling any churches or interfering with their operations.

Mansfield church elder David Etzel disagrees, saying, “Of course their claim isn’t true. That’s just what they tell the public. They’re actually pulling a lot of strings behind the scenes and trying to bring churches under their control. This is the fourth incident we’ve had here in less than two years where people loyal to that ministry disrupted church meetings. We want absolutely nothing to do with them or their organization.

I can just hear Benson Philips repeating WL's famous response, "I don't control anyone, I can't even control a mosquito!"

Liars!

.

Originally Posted by Drake

So, how far is Kampala from Cleveland? A fair distance I think.

Originally Posted by Drake

You are applying “a local matter”, a term normally reserved for the jurisdiction of a local church to a regional work. In so doing, you now have introduced a complication, where does a local matter end? Why not, then call anything in the USA a local matter... local to the country?

Originally Posted by Kevin

These LCers have gone too far! Sorry but no sorry Mr. Drake.

Originally Posted by awareness

It was a mid-west problem. That did not make any of it right. As I said, Christ was absent from all parties involved. LSM had no right to step in. Not unless LSM is the headquarters over all local churches, and autonomy of the locality was tossed out of the ground of the locality doctrine.

The whole thing smacks of "The Governing Body" over all of the Kingdom Halls. Same, same.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did the elders need canceled checks to know who was disrupting the meetings with their "ohhhhLoooorrrrrGeeeeeeeezus" moanings and gruntings? Seriously?

Let me see how much money LSM and its affiliates have spent on lawsuits and legal fees. Be honest here.

Drake, you keep repeating your 3 talking points about Columbus and Mansfield. You really have no idea what happened there, what LSM has done to divide and destroy those churches, all for base gain and love of filthy lucre. You got your twisted facts third hand from corrupt operatives sent in to steal meeting halls.

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

You are generalizing to divert attention from what happened. You want to make it appear that the Titus Chu proxy elders in Columbus wanted to know who gave what so that those who gave could file their tax returns.

Please.

That is not what we are talking about. Those elders wanted to know who gave what so they could, as in Mansfield, understand who was following their direction in the matter of giving and how they were designating their financial offering. Giving has never been a determinant for fellowship. How much and to what is a private matter between the giver and the Lord. No elder has the right to inspect that.

Since you were a treasurer in the local church do venture to educate us of the wisdom of the financial actions the elders in Columbus took...... assuming you know.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Provide a statement from the “Blendeds” that makes that claim and we’ll discuss that.

Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

How is it that the Blendeds can condemn TC for ministering in places around the world, and claim some false authority over what he and the Midwest is allowed to do?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every church in America with 501.c.4 tax exempt status is required to record offerings. Of course, the elders had access to those records. Go to every single LSM LC in the USA and it is the same. If you don't like that, give cash. But if you gave money, we would refuse it!.

Originally Posted by Drake

Local matter?

Mansfield is not Cleveland. Cleveland is not Columbus. Detroit is not Mansfield.

So bro awareness, is this a Google Maps doctrine that says if you are thousands of miles away butt out and if you are hundreds of miles away you can takeover and misappropriate local church finances. Since Titus was in Cleveland he can appoint his own elders in Mansfield and Columbus and channel the funding to the charity of his choice?

So then, how do you advise Titus about his adventures in Kampala? Just how far is Cleveland from Kampala?

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Columbus is the second fav poster child of Ohio’s as he likes to cast Living Stream Ministry as the perpetrator when in reality events in Columbus followed a very similar pattern as Mansfield. Titus Chu appointed elders in Columbus used similar heavy handed tactics as did the Mansfield proxy elders along with the Titus Chus coworker from Detroit.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just because some posters here desire to make LSM accountable does not mean there is no forgiveness.

It's Lee himself that added extra conditions i.e. "forgive and forget." That was sorely needed in the LCM to protect him and his sons from any responsibility for their actions.

But then again doesn't God Himself require some repentance before He will forgive?

Originally Posted by Drake

Local matter?

Mansfield is not Cleveland. Cleveland is not Columbus. Detroit is not Mansfield.

So bro awareness, is this a Google Maps doctrine that says if you are thousands of miles away butt out and if you are hundreds of miles away you can takeover and misappropriate local church finances. Since Titus was in Cleveland he can appoint his own elders in Mansfield and Columbus and channel the funding to the charity of his choice?

So then, how do you advise Titus about his adventures in Kampala? Just how far is Cleveland from Kampala?

Drake

Originally Posted by awareness

Even if all that is gospel truth, why did LSM have any right to break up the fight? It was local. Besides, they were a couple thousand miles away, butting into local matters that wasn't any of their business. What? Are they the worlds' ministry police?.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I held on to them until the day I heard they were filing lawsuits against Columbus and Mansfield.

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother Ohio was right to walk away from that mess. Cuz if that was an example "The Recovery," it failed miserably. Seems to me that Christ was absent in all parties involved.

And if you didn't also walk away from it all, shame on you. It calls all your accounts and judgments into question.

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

And yet, you don’t take your own advice in the court of public opinion.

Originally Posted by D

All,
In this thread an objective reader will observe that the timeline shows a takeover of the local church in Mansfield by proxy elders appointed by Titus Chu and only after the shenanigans described such as the meeting hall takeover, demanding that the saints obey the proxy elders authority, getting locked out of their meetings in the cold, implementing new unscriptural paractices such as having to tithe to partake of the Lords table, local church finances being diverted to Titus Chu’s ministry projects, and of course public bullying tactics like the coworker goading members in a meeting to “punch me! Come on, you know you want to!” ....only after theses events did LSM become involved.

Originally Posted by Drake

For those reasons, I believed the facts of Mansfield history needed to be put on the table. Ohio will still blame and slander Christians in the local churches but an objective reader now has facts to show his criticism about Mansfield is one sided and uninformed. That is the only reason I brought these matters up. An argument of moral equivalency, Ohio’s favorite fallacy argument, cannot excuse the takeover of Mansfield by Titus Chu, his coworker from Detroit, and his appointed proxy elders.

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSMers would always play the victim, "After exhausting all other avenues of Christian discourse, 'we had no choice' but to seek relief from the courts ..."

How about prayer? Righteousness? Honesty? Finally, as Paul admonishes, "why not rather be wronged?" (I Cor 6.7)

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's become readily apparent that the Head of LSM is Lee, and the God of LSM is the courts.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And there it is! Finally, when all else fails, we are "forced" to take Christ! (or at least, that's what should happen . . . y-all hopefully get what I mean)

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about prayer? Righteousness? Honesty? Finally, as Paul admonishes, "why not rather be wronged?" (I Cor 6.7)

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Did Witness Lee’s proxies also file a lawsuit against these other local churches?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Was Witness Lee not ambitious? Did he not send his proxies to take over the church in NYC? (see Stephen Kaung's account) Did he not send his proxies (Mel Porter) to take over Miami/Ft. Lauderdale (read awareness' account)? Did he not send his proxies (Francis Ball) to take over Rosemead? (Read Wang's and Hardy's accounts) Did he not send his proxies to take over North Carolina? (read Bill Mallon's account) This list, going back to Taiwan and China, is almost endless.

Originally Posted by Ohio

So awareness you saw first hand how LSM could provoke certain ambitious nut jobs to misconstrue the scriptural admonition to "fight the good fight" of the faith.

LSM thrives on this kind of fleshly zealotry. During the "new way" of the late 80's there were hundreds of stories like yours. Until one understands how Lee and LSM really operate, he/she will always be deceived by their abundance of teachings.

Originally Posted by Drake

You’re asking for a rear view mirror analysis of an event that unfolded over decades with a brother that many of us appreciated and respected. So, it’s really hard to know what action would have made a difference and when. Would nipping the bud of ambition decades earlier prevented the Mansfield event or one like it?

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake, from your experience with these matters. What could the LSM representatives done differently or better?

*edit- in regards to the the whole story in Mansfield

Originally Posted by Drake

Sadly, it is not fake news. Sometimes I wish it were, like when Titus’ coworker gets in a brothers face during a Mansfield meeting goading the brother to “punch him”. “Come on, punch me! You know you want to!.”

Nutty.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

This isn’t a team sport.

Ohio dropped out a year before the events in Mansfield took place. Nevertheless, I’m sure he appreciates the support.

Drake

Originally Posted by awareness

I'll say nutty. A meeting in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale almost broke out in fist-a-cuffs, with fists doubled up, and ready to fly.

Why? Over loyalty to Witness Lee. After that meeting about 40 brothers broke with the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, moved north to Boca Raton, Fl, declared the ground, and declared total loyalty to Witness Lee. That was back in the 1980s. Did the Lord bless that move? No. There's still only around 40 members there, dying out by attrition.

Really nutty indeed. The Lord does not, and is not, blessing Lee. It's all men driven, and human aggrandized. Loyalty to him is foolishness.

Originally Posted by Drake

Sadly, it is not fake news. Sometimes I wish it were, like when Titus’ coworker gets in a brothers face during a Mansfield meeting goading the brother to “punch him”. “Come on, punch me! You know you want to!.”

Nutty.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Sadly, it is not fake news. Sometimes I wish it were, like when Titus’ coworker gets in a brothers face during a Mansfield meeting goading the brother to “punch him”. “Come on, punch me! You know you want to!.”

Nutty.

Originally Posted by Drake

This isn’t a team sport.

Ohio dropped out a year before the events in Mansfield took place. Nevertheless, I’m sure he appreciates the support.

Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

Extremely doubtful, prolly fake news coming out of Anaheim.

Was it the same brother who was seen in Anaheim screaming in the streets, "I am a baby god, I am a god-man, I am a baby god!!!"

Hi Drake, hate to break the news to you. Probably he is not god either.

Originally Posted by awareness

Until brother Drake proves otherwise, I'm going with bro Ohio. I know he was there, and don't know if bro Drake was.

Originally Posted by Drake

Good point.

An elder running around the meeting hall in Mansfield shouting “I am the authority! I’m the elder! I have the authority!” ...

.. is probably not the authority.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

An elder running around the meeting hall in Mansfield shouting “I am the authority! I’m the elder! I have the authority!” ...

.. is probably not the authority.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And let me add that things go sideways when authority outside of an ekklesia is subjected upon it (other than Christ)

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hmmm, wow, Ohio, your insight makes me think you went through the same situation I did, maybe another version of the same story...? Amazing how many testimonies can be found online that are almost mirror images of my LC experience. We were cast off by one whom we had opened our home to....invited to come and live in our home...a person my kids call Grandma...our shunning is not a figment of my imagination. Their friendship and fellowship in Christ, I have come to learn, was a figment of my imagination...it was all one sided. Genuine on our part, faked on the LC side.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If by chance you come Scottsdale way, look me up! There's a good number of recovering Recovery saints here, who just love Jesus!

Originally Posted by Ohio

There may not be any "public" declaration. Things can be said behind closed doors, and all of a sudden one loses all her family's friends and fellowship and basically becomes a cast off.

It is just pathetic that Drake can continue to play the blame game, play dumb to all of these hurtful things, and continue to excuse his people of all their despicable actions.

Originally Posted by Drake

Fortunately, UntoHim to his credit, runs a secure forum respecting members privacy and insuring their personal details are not disclosed publicly. IT is up to each member to share what they want to.

Other forums, including christian forums, are not so careful. So I had one very bad experience getting harassed outside a forum by forum participants (Christians they were). . I really don't want to go through that again nor put my family through it.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let me wade thru this swamp, making clarifications ...

Originally Posted by Drake

Other forums, including christian forums, are not so careful. So I had one very bad experience getting harassed outside a forum by forum participants (Christians they were). . I really don't want to go through that again nor put my family through it.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes, I know members out here that are hiding their identity because they have family still in the LC, and they don't want to poke that hornet's nest, by letting them know that they are anti-LC, and anti-Lee. Why stir up those kinds of troubles?

Doesn't that tell you something about the local church, and their cult mentality, that causes dissenters to fear them?

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness brother, now you make me feel for you. I don't want you to get burned, by outsiders, or harassed. How did you manage to get stuck in such an environment? Are these harassers "Christian" hostiles? As I see it, looking at history, and my own personal experiences, we could easily concluded that, it's very Christian to be hateful.

Originally Posted by Drake

Few posters here post under their real names. It's best these days.

Originally Posted by Drake

You are reading too much into it... it is simple. There are nut cases lurking about that will harass outside of the forum. I've been burned once and it will not happen twice.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

You are reading too much into it... it is simple. There are nut cases lurking about that will harass outside of the forum. I've been burned once and it will not happen twice.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Ohio - is it true that Chu required saints to tithe? If so, what did that look like?

Originally Posted by leastofthese

It is easier to speak harshly and pretend to carry a big stick when no one knows who you are.

Now - I'm not saying this is Drake - only he knows that.

Originally Posted by awareness

On computer forums we can only get at so much. Intentions are hard to come by.

Privacy reasons can be good and can be bad ; can be right, and can be wrong. I guess it's in the reason(s) for hiding. But you are hiding, right brother? Do I get that right?

I must remark. On the forum you strike me as having the right reason's for hiding. But I've been known to be wrong about things like that before.

Anyway brother. Hiding isn't easy. It takes staying focused, that nothing leaks out. Watch out for that brother. You could be found out.

But doesn't it all come out eventually? I don't know. There's only two witnesses, Matthew and Luke ... and they don't seem to jibe ... but didn't Jesus say something about proclaiming from the housetops?

Glory be that day!!!

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness

During the dust up period in mid 2000s I was somewhat neutral and took a mental wait and see approach for the reasons I stated in my last post. I suppose I held out hope that the one accord would win the day including Brother Titus. For me, and later, the leaves changed color with a more careful review of the series of Nigel Tomes articles. I thought, you know, this is Titus’ representative... seriously? Yet, in a sense that was a significant step forward for me... kind of snapped me out of a false hope I was holding onto.

Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just because some posters here desire to make LSM accountable does not mean there is no forgiveness.

It's Lee himself that added extra conditions i.e. "forgive and forget." That was sorely needed in the LCM to protect him and his sons from any responsibility for their actions.

But then again doesn't God Himself require some repentance before He will forgive?

Originally Posted by awareness

Privacy reasons can be good and can be bad ; can be right, and can be wrong. I guess it's in the reason(s) for hiding. But you are hiding, right brother? Do I get that right?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Is that where the forgiveness begins?

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, lift the quarantine.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm wondering if there can be - dare I say it - forgiveness?

So much blame has been assigned and walls have gone up and fortifications built . . . we see so clearly the beam in the other's person's eye.

Not only do we have a model, but Forgiveness Himself lives in us.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where and when there's endless corruption and scandals, the need for transparency is tantamount.

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness,

Yes, you spotted a dodge for privacy reasons.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness,

Yes, you spotted a dodge for privacy reasons.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

But it seemed to many of the coworkers and the elders in the Far East and eventually Brother Lee to determine that Titus was doing his own thing without fellowship. A ministry without fellowship is a nonstarter.

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness

During the dust up period in mid 2000s I was somewhat neutral and took a mental wait and see approach for the reasons I stated in my last post. I suppose I held out hope that the one accord would win the day including Brother Titus. For me, and later, the leaves changed color with a more careful review of the series of Nigel Tomes articles. I thought, you know, this is Titus’ representative... seriously? Yet, in a sense that was a significant step forward for me... kind of snapped me out of a false hope I was holding onto.

Drake

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother Drake, I liked Titus. I also liked that he wasn't blindly aligned with Lee. I liked his independence.

But after reading your last post I'm not sure of your involvement in the Midwest controversy. So I need to ask. Were you with the Titus side, in the Midwest, or you with the Anaheim side? Where were you located at the time?

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What was Titus Chu’s beef with the blended brothers? What was the blended brothers beef with Chu?

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Finally what was the ultimate conclusion, where did the “saints” in Mansfield end up after all of this?

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

First, the attempted takeover of Mansfield in the fall of 2006 by Titus Chu through his proxies, the 4 elders he appointed, was preceded by a very public and open debate between Titus Chu supported by his coworkers and the blended brothers fulfilling their responsibility to carry on the ministry entrusted to them by Brother Lee. Titus Chu and his coworkers, particularly Nigel Tomes, launched very specific and targeted attacks on the blended brothers criticizing them by name. These attacks crescendoed in 2006 and had begun in earnest even in late 2005. So, the events in Mansfield were preceded by this hot intensified public debate for the better part of a year though Titus Chu was known to have criticized leading brothers in the Lords recovery long before that

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here we are discussing the church in Mansfield with elders appointed by a recognized apostle TC.

Originally Posted by Drake

First, the attempted takeover of Mansfield in the fall of 2006 by Titus Chu through his proxies, the 4 elders he appointed,

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

First, the attempted takeover of Mansfield in the fall of 2006 by Titus Chu through his proxies, the 4 elders he appointed, was preceded by a very public and open debate between Titus Chu supported by his coworkers and the blended brothers fulfilling their responsibility to carry on the ministry entrusted to them by Brother Lee. Titus Chu and his coworkers, particularly Nigel Tomes, launched very specific and targeted attacks on the blended brothers criticizing them by name. These attacks crescendoed in 2006 and had begun in earnest even in late 2005. So, the events in Mansfield were preceded by this hot intensified public debate for the better part of a year though Titus Chu was known to have criticized leading brothers in the Lords recovery long before that.

Second, by what authority you ask. A ministry is responsible for the churches it raises up. The church in Mansfield was raised up in 1966 largely by the ministry of Brothers Nee and Lee. Titus was an independent worker from Cleveland who influenced many churches in Ohio and the Midwest. However, that does not establish a right or entitlement to exert the kind of unscriptural authority over a local church as Titus and his proxy elders attempted to do. Look at #117 carefully. Those 3 items clearly show that Mansfield under those elders were swinging hard away from the basic standing, the most fundamental tenets of a local church. Were those deviations allowed to stand unchallenged the church in Mansfield would have lost its standing as a local church not able to receive all those whom the Lord has received.

Drake

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake - I’m also don’t understand what led up to Chu appointing these new elders (and removing the old?). When Ohio says the LSM intervened, who were these people and where were they from? I’m not asking for names...

....If people from the LSM intervened - it sounds like you’re saying it was because Chu was attempting a takeover and not letting people participate in table meetings? In not, what am I missing?

Finally on what authority did the LSM intervene?

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

Your timeline is completely out of whack. Apparently you have nothing straight about Mansfield.

Dwight Rader passed away in August of 2008. The heavy handed unscriptural events in Mansfield perpetrated by the “elders” appointed by Titus Chu occurred almost 2 years earlier at the end of 2006.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Awareness, Appreciate the prompt.
Once a year, maybe twice, I get compelled to restate my views on the subject you raise above. It is probably necessary because in the course of standing up for my convictions over many posts it may not be apparent where my sympathies lay.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In the meantime...you haven't begun to answer my question:
WHAT WAS THE MAIN ISSUE BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES IN ALL THE MIDWEST/CANADIAN FIASCO?
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Originally Posted by Ohio

Dwight was incapacitated for quite some time.

Why is the appointed of elders "heavy-handed?" Have you ever read some of the "heavy-handed" tactics by WL and his minions?

Unscriptural? Did you ever watch that Whistler Kangaroo Court? Endless violations of scripture.

It was a local matter. Why is a book store interfering? No one from LSM had ever been to Mansfield before.

Originally Posted by awareness

I know bro Drake has a favorable view of the LC ... to say the least ... bless his little pea pickin' heart......And I don't think he intends to, maybe he's never thought of it before, but brother Drake doesn't seem to show any sympathy toward those good brothers and sisters in the Lord, that were swept out, in Lee's wake. Maybe he thinks, or feels, "good riddance." Maybe he thinks good riddance toward all us exLCer's out here. Where the heart is, there lies the treasure.

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHismercy,

I don’t understand what you mean when you say you were excommunicated. Do you mean you were shunned using the term Sons to Glory used? For one to get excommunicated is a serious matter. There is usually a public declaration of some sort. You said you were getting ready to leave anyway. If you wanted to leave and for some reason they wanted you to leave there would be no need for excommunication. You just leave whenever you feel like it.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

Your timeline is completely out of whack. Apparently you have nothing straight about Mansfield.

Dwight Rader passed away in August of 2008. The heavy handed unscriptural events in Mansfield perpetrated by the “elders” appointed by Titus Chu occurred almost 2 years earlier at the end of 2006.

Drake

Originally Posted by byHismercy

This is most surely their best attempt to get us to obey their ultimatum to meet with the Lee ministry, and that alone. My excommunication came about very swiftly after I let them know that we were seeking another assembly, closer to home, outside their group. I personally would have never cut off contact with the saints we were close with...there would always be an open door for any believer, no matter the assembly, distance...I see no reason to separate....I truly believe in the one body!
.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Look at all Steve Isitt "Indiana" has gone through.

Max and Ingalls et. al. never had their quarantines lifted.

I have talked before how ludicrous these *quarantines* are.

Originally Posted by Drake

The heavy handed unscriptural events in Mansfield...

Originally Posted by Ohio

OK, Drake, let me get this straight.

Knowing that beloved brother Dwight Rader was quite sick, Titus Chu woke up one morning and decided to send another former Mansfield elder and coworker to Mansfield with specific instructions to appoint elders (kind of like how Paul sent Titus to Crete to appoint elders) who would pick the coldest day of the year to lock out all the older saints.

Then completely out of the blue, some Anaheim, CA book publishing house, out of the goodness of their heart, decided they would step in with their free legal aid services.

Sure, that makes a lot of sense!

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe when or if they lift the quarantine.

Originally Posted by Drake

3. Please explain the scriptural, spiritual, or even moral basis for establishing the right to partake of the table in Mansfield being RESERVED ONLY for those who tithed, attended prayer meetings, and followed the elders.

Originally Posted by Drake

2. What scriptural basis dId the coworker of Titus Chu sent to establish the newly appointed elders have for establishing a policy that the saints in Mansfield must adhere to the speaking, direction, and authority of these "elders" else they could go find someplace else to meet?

Originally Posted by Drake

1. On what basis do the freshly appointed elders by Titus Chu have the right to change the locks on the doors to the meeting hall and then refuse to open them for 5 consecutive Lord Days in November and December of 2006 locking the saints out and leaving the elderly in the cold?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What was the main issue between the two parties Drake?
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Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake could you provide the facts for us? If Ohio is making up the account, you should set the record straight. Should be easy enough, most are still alive that we’re involved (I assume). Where you there Drake?

Originally Posted by Drake

He has for a very long time cited events in Mansfield without citing the facts.

Pathetic really.

Drake

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Drake, now that we know you're the resident expert on all things MidWest, riddle me this:

WHAT WAS THE MAIN ISSUE IN THE PROBLEMS BETWEEN THOSE BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN MANSFIELD? WAS IT POSSIBLY THE VERY SAME ISSUE BETWEEN MANY OF THE MIDWEST CANADIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS?

What's the heart of the issue my man? Let me give you a clue. It's that big, fat elephant smack dab in the middle of the room. You know, it's that ginormous pachyderm that you conveniently ignore in almost every thread ever posted in these forums for over a decade now. We see it. All the readers and lurkers see it. Even the most casual of readers see it. For sure God sees it. How bout you join the club bro?

I repeat. What was the main issue in the problems between the saints in Mansfield?
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Originally Posted by Ohio

After the death of beloved brother Dwight Rader, other brothers were appointed to the eldership by TC. (Isn't that the LC way taught by Lee himself?) Besides that fact, nothing else Drake posts is trustworthy.

For those interested, posters Suannehill and Norm live in Mansfield, and their posts are trustworthy.

This thread "The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada"
also has info from several years ago.

Info on Dwight's passing and Mansfield starts around post #73.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think you are most vigorously objecting to the word, "crime" right? I will admit that this may not be the most appropriate word. ByHisMercy, I'm guessing, is using that in a way to illustrate and emphasize how strongly they see the things which happened to them. "Crime" may be a bit inflammatory, but it is conveying a strong emotion.

Am I right ByHisMercy?

BTW - I found the Nee booklet after some searching.

Originally Posted by Drake

Here is what actually happened your revisionist version notwithstanding.

The takeover of Mansfield by 4 newly appointed elders, without consultation of the church in Mansfield, by Titus Chu in 2006 is a sad chapter in that local church history. In a failed attempt to snatch the property the newly appointed elders from Titus changed the meeting hall locks forcing elderly saints to stand out in the cold on several consecutive Lord”s days. There were ugly and mean spirited bullying tactics and open confrontations in meetings by those who tried to take the meeting hall by force. Furthermore, they demanded obedience as they declared themselves “ the authority” to whom obedience was due. Fortunately, Mansfield saints who had devoted their lives and livelihoods to the church life there prevailed by God’s mercy, faithful saints, and eventually the courts.

Ohio often cites Mansfield as a poster child example of mean old LSM controlling churches. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Fact is, the people who attempted to control were sent from Titus on and for his behalf. This is documented history in spite of the spin Ohio tries to put on it.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Oh my goodness. Such chest thumping and bully antics! No doubt we are onto something here. Hmmmm.... That suggests perhaps we should drill down on this oft repeated rhetoric of yours about Mansfield. Get the truth out instead of giving you free reign to revise history about what really happened.

Originally Posted by Ohio

How dare you sit on your high horse meting out condemnations on "poor, poor, degraded, divided Christianity, when you are complicit with far worse crimes.

Then you attempt to mock me for pointing out your hypocrisy. You and your people laid waste two LC's in Ohio -- Columbus and Mansfield -- and you think a few more accusations and brevity are called for.

Have you no shame?

Originally Posted by Drake

You sound like the culprit, and a historical revisionist, who ordered changing the locks on the meeting hall in Mansfield leaving even the elderly folks out in the cold. Plenty of material there to talk about loyalists, invaders, deception, and stealing others property and liberty.

Pathetic.

Drake