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| The Local Church in the 21st Century Observations and Discussions regarding the Local Church Movement in the Here and Now |
Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 03-18-2020 08:44 PM | ||
| JJ |
Re: The Old Way vs. the New Way Amen, and that goes for all of us. |
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| 03-18-2020 02:42 PM | ||
| Boxjobox |
Re: The Old Way vs. the New Way To any local churcher: This time of isolation is an excellent opportunity to practice the old way. I would encourage you to lay aside all the LSM stuff, pick up a common Bible version-not the gold bar, or whatever it may be called now version, sit down, just you and the Lord and the scripture and read through all the epistles, asking God our Father to enlighten you heart. You don’t have to be concerned with thinking and interpreting according to WL/LSM criteria, no one will know, you don’t have to answer or report to anyone, just you and the Lord and the scripture. You can even pray read over it ( but not the Oh Lord Amen Hallelujah) and talk to God about what you read. You don’t have to put on an act, say or think things you really don’t believe, you won’t be punished by God for not following the New Way. It can be Just what the Apostle John wrote in his epistle- that which was from the beginning- our fellowship with the Father and with His son Jesus Christ. Let the joy of that fellowship through the avenue of the scripture fill and work within your heart. Again- no one will know you are doing this, you won’t become poisoned, you will not miss out on the riches, you will not turn into a pillar of salt. You will find a sweet fellowship, an inward renewal, a cleansing, a finding of your old spiritual reality. The hype, the conformity, fear of not being up to date, of pretending to get it but not really having it, of putting on a show of going along but never arriving, the fear of speaking what you really feel and think- all of that kind of facade, set it aside and enjoy reading what the actual apostles wrote to the churches to help them walk in truth. The scripture apart from all the twists and turns that WL/LSM put on it will be so refreshing, so sweet, so genuine, so cleansing and healing to your heart and mind. It looks like we will have a good length of time to be able to practice this old way without the interference of the New Way. Hopefully all of us who are not trapped in the LSM labyrinth are doing this already- this is for those who because of the spiritual oppression of LSM need a time of healing. Oh yes, and if you are in the LSM business, you too can practice this old way too. You can lay aside the damaging conglomeration you’ve created, and you too can come back to that which was from the beginning. It is this personal exchange between you and God via the living word which will equip the saints for each one to add their part. It will never be through the LSM cabal. |
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| 03-16-2020 09:36 AM | ||
| Boxjobox |
Re: The Old Way vs. the New Way I’m from San Diego, so I’ll use this example. If one wants to know what was the old way, look up the Church in San Diego website and read the introduction and the history section. This is the image they put out to the public- which was the old way of Love the Lord, love the Bible, the church-it’s all there. But what is missing is what they have been engulfed in for the last 35 years, which is LSM and the New Way. That adulterous marriage which took place in 1986, when they divorced their old husband for the New Way second marriage and now hide this second marriage history and act like everything is the same is publicly and, worse than that, self deception. Selling yourself out to a man/and the now dead man’s ministry business is not loving the Lord, the Bible, the church. When they made such a adulterous marriage, they should have change their name to reflect this new relation- they should have dropped the church in San Diego and called themselves LSM in San Diego to reflect the real oneness of this new relationship. The church in San Diego title should belong to those who would want to meet in the old way. The conscience, the shame they must feel within their souls cannot be drowned out by the LSM propaganda- that shame will always be there as long as they don’t walk away from this adulterous New Way relationship, this ungodly union. Israel, the examples found in the scriptures, had the same problem of leaving their husband for adulterous relationships, yet God called them to forsake what they had done and turn back. At least scripture was faithful to record the true history- something that is entirely lacking with the church in San Diego. |
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| 03-15-2020 08:23 AM | ||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: The Old Way vs. the New Way Quote:
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| 03-14-2020 09:25 AM | ||
| Boxjobox |
Re: The Old Way vs. the New Way Quote:
Then the whole thing gets turned backwards by "the New Way". I'm of an optimistic view that those meeting in the structure of old way, who got turned around, will look at the scripture, repent and turn (a little redundant, I know) and drop the "New Way". Let's face it, Lee is dead, his New Way produced a pathetic sect, the scripture is still speaking- though drowned out by the constant LSM propagand, and I want to think that scripture will prevail, that light will shine, that the saints hear the Spirit speaking, will recognize from whence they have fallen and turn back to the old way. It won't be easy- one's belief system once formed and ingrained into "every fiber of their being" is not easy to extract. But God is God, and the scripture speaks and divides the inward parts, and the heart of the believer longs for the things of God. I'm optimistic. |
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| 03-13-2020 01:59 PM | ||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: The Old Way vs. the New Way Boxjobox & Aron - agree completely. I was led to the LC in 1974 and it was all those things! When I left for good in 88, the New Way was settling in, and many were bothered big time. There was so, so much potential it seemed, to have a big impact on Christendom - if only it hadn't gotten all exclusive and prideful, and all things LSM (focused on WL in such an unbelievably dogmatic way). Then again, I'm persuaded the Lord fully has all this (i.e., building His church) - what you presented just wasn't for the LC to do at that time. And unless the Lord does something truly remarkable (which He is known to do!) in the LC, it surely won't be through that group! |
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| 03-13-2020 02:38 AM | ||
| aron |
Re: The Old Way vs. the New Way Box, I completely agree, especially stressing the words "potential" vs "merchandise" and "business". Eventually, moving LSM product became the analog, or stand-in, for reality. It could have been so much more, though. It had potential. My own personal take is somewhat along the lines of the Chesterton quip recently posted, that reformers can see what's wrong, but they can't see what's right. There was the potential for a real move of the spirit among us, we could feel it. But we, collectively, didn't get to realise the full extent of the work that God was attempting. Witness Lee settled in a business as his goal, and he got it. He got control, of a sorts. And those who took his way got lifetime sinecure. But what God really wanted got actively repressed. I was there, and saw it. I knew nothing of Daystar and Timothy Lee, or Philip Lee as the office. But I saw precious believers with a heart to serve God being turned into reflexive automatons. But there was another way. Jesus is the Way. He is the Logos, the Word of God made flesh. This would take a lifetime of diligent seeking to unpack. There are layers upon layers. And it was starting to unpack. We could feel the tremors of excitement as tha layers were being peeled back. It was indescribable joy. Then Lee shut it down, rebuking and mocking and shaming those who were not lining up with his way. He had a business to run, a family to feed. |
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| 03-12-2020 03:54 PM | ||
| Boxjobox |
The Old Way vs. the New Way I have a lot of considerations after having parted ways with the “Recovery” almost 35 years ago. Im sure most posters here have formulated opinions on the veracity of the whole local church thing. It all had a profound impact on my Christian life- coming to, existing in, and leaving the LC, which means it had a major impact on all aspects of my life. I was a Christian before coming to my first meeting back in 1976, and my life in Christ continued after I left. Since leaving, I examined at some point just about everything I learned or observed or practiced in the LC. In my estimation, the need for the recovery of the church exists so much in modern Christianity. I find truism in the “poor, poor Christianity” quip. The more I interact with Christians and various groups, I just see a large black hole in matters relating the Church. Some try to have a semblance of a scriptural gathering, but most just seem like pastor driven entertainment events, or are so stuck in a form that has long lost a zeal for the real reasons for assembling. Much of this view I have is due to the beginning experiences I had when I first came to the LC. At that time there was an excitement both inward and outward for the gathering together, a real love for the Lord, for the scripture, for each other-something I had never seen in any Christian gathering upto that point. There was a “church life” which somewhat felt like something you would read in the book of Acts. I had been raised as a Catholic, came to Christ at 20, and longed for everything that I read in the scripture. I am not saying the meetings and fellowship when I first came to the LC was perfect, and often was actually a little nutty, but, the form matched what I read in scripture- the idea of meeting as the church, elders who cared for the church, gospel meetings, speaking and praying by the saints, eating together, speaking the things of Christ etc. all had potential to be a glorious growing habitation for God and man. In looking back at that time, I can clearly see the gradual, and then increasing control of WL, which ruined the preciousness of that thing we called “recovery of the Church”. Books not LSM left the bookstore and library at the meeting hall. Sharing brothers became dependent on lining up with the teachings of WL, people were viewed by their faithfulness to speak LSM. It became increasingly apparent that just being a believer, meeting as the church, loving the Lord, caring for others, etc., was not enough- you had to have a sold out allegiance to WL and LSM. The old way was gone and the New Way reigned. Everything was lined up with the New Way. But really, looking back, the New Way was really a way to expand and lock in the business of LSM- IT WAS A BUSINESS MOVE. There was no sure revenue flow if saints met in the old way. In the old way, saints met together under the care of the local overseers. Sharing came from the scripture, consideration of the needs of the saints, of the gospel, of meeting were local- just like one would find in the scripture. (I’m not naive to not recognize some influence of WL, actually, large influence by WL in my early days of meeting, but the way could have been there to really be a local assembly) When I consider those early days, it seems the way would have been there to influence all Christianity, all Christians meeting in my city. It would have had a major impact that I believe would have changed modern Christianity for all future generations. God would be glorified, Christ would be lifted up, saints would have grown, the body would have grown, all the Christians would be blessed and the city and the non-believers would have benefited. I can’t imagine what the church in my city would be today. Instead, the New Way was instituted which really only profited LSM- it’s really about LSM, the light in my local church went out when The New Way came in. God lost, Christ was used for $$$, the saints including the young ones were merchants and merchandise for LSM, the Christians in my city lost out, the city and all the people lost what should have been an increasing, shining lamp stand. It pains me to think about it. That early experience in the LC was not, as I said, by any means perfect, but it contained scriptural elements that had so much potential to grow and shine as the saints went on- meeting as the Church without another name, the priesthood of all the saints, the gospel, prayer meetings, fellowship, vision and discussion of Christ and the Church, fellowship with other saints, localities, songs that came, burdens for people and the Lord’s work, elders who had a view of the church. All this- the old way, the scriptural way, was thrown out for a New Way- the way of LSM. I looked the other day at their IRS 990T for 2018 and their asset book value of $100.7 million- I guess their business model works for them. But the loss of all the golden precious things that were once growing in the LC’s-God’s loss, the saints loss, the city’s loss, the loss that could have been gold and silver and precious stones to every Christian— LSM gaining the world, but the Church, the saints loosing their soul- ITS NOT WORTH $100 million. I don’t imagine that the newer, or younger ones in the LC have any memory of the old way; any way of considering from whence they have fallen. It’s a shame really. My prayer is that those who are older, who were around before the New Way would weep for Jerusalem, forsake this LSM business and return to the old way, the scriptural way. |
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