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02-13-2018 01:17 PM
aron
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel View Post
I've been reading about Witness Lee, the Living Stream Ministry, and the Local Church from I first came in contact with all three... A part of my professional requirement is research, and I'm very good at it... One of the reasons being that I am, and have always been, very detailed oriented. It's one of the things people have a love/hate relationship with me for... I have always been able to spot what others miss. Which often makes me very hard to deal with on forums like this.
In Psalm 68, the psalmist says that God will crush the head of His enemies, and the psalmist will bath his feet in their blood (vv 21,23). The footnote says, "We enjoy Christ's victory over the enemies."

But usually the psalmist is panned for being "natural" in expressing such sentiments, even in milder form. In the NT we're supposed to love our enemies, and forgive them! Never wish them ill.

See e.g., Psalm 3 footnote in v 7 "Oh that you would strike all my enemies on the cheek; and break the teeth of the wicked". Lee says that "David's prayer for vengeance against his enemies is contrary to the NT. . . yada yada".

Yet why dd David throw a rock at Goliath? Not so nice, was he? Why did Samuel smite Agag? Etc?

Why the disparity in exegetical approaches? Witness Lee never explains it. It's like one moment he decides that David is a picture of Christ, the next that he's just being "himself". Old David.

I find this to be arbitrary and inconsistent, and don't think it would stand up in an undergraduate paper, much less something published by Oxford U. Press. The whole thing smacks of a self-obsessed vanity project. No wonder Lee wouldn't subject himself to critical review.

How could several hundred or a few thousand sit quietly and uncritically while the 'minister of the age' whipsawed through scripture like this? Mesmerised, perhaps? Cowed into silence? Waiting for the cheer-leaders to start braying today's slogan? Incredible.
02-13-2018 10:48 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel View Post
I know from my own experience that his ministry has... And I fully believe that if you're honest... You will admit that, in one way or another, and to one degree or another, it's the same for you.
Why would kumbaya, or anyone for that matter, lie to themselves about something like this?
02-12-2018 03:11 PM
Steel
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Are you implying that to continue your walk with the Lord that you must involve the ministry of Witness Lee?
Not at all. Based on my own experience of walking with the Lord I know that a believer's walk is by the leading of the Spirit in our spirit. My point was simply that you can "...chuck..." out whatever books you like... Your chucking them out doesn't prove that they contain nothing regarding the truth that is revealed in scripture. All it says is that you're making a choice to try and find much of what is said in LSM resources... In other non-LSM resources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I fully believe I can read the Bible, and the Bible ALONE and be constituted.
To a point, I know from my own experience that this is true. But... There is also the fellowship of the body to be considered. No believer is called to be a believer unto themselves. And a part of this fellowship is related to the gifts that are given to various members of the body in and through a measure of grace that these ones have received from God to carry out the purpose of their given gifts... A measure of grace that you might not have received from God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Many believe this.
Again... I know... It was even my own experience for a time. But what we believe is not always according to the Lord's reality. And this we can know because scripture tells us that we know in part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
We don't need WL's ministry.
Well... Only if God has willed it as such. Obviously Balam didn't think he needed his donkey to speak to him... But God had a different view. Over the years I've learned to be very careful regarding what I think I know I need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
If parts of it help you, fine.
Many parts have, and do. And, although you may deny it, I would tend to think that many parts have also helped you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
But there's no denying the accusations against him might make you carefully examine what you're reading from him.
I've been reading about Witness Lee, the Living Stream Ministry, and the Local Church from I first came in contact with all three... A part of my professional requirement is research, and I'm very good at it... One of the reasons being that I am, and have always been, very detailed oriented. It's one of the things people have a love/hate relationship with me for... I have always been able to spot what others miss. Which often makes me very hard to deal with on forums like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
I'm not here to judge whether or not he did or didn't contribute. But, no one is without sin- Abraham, Moses, David, even Paul.
That is a good start. But when you use phrases like "...chucking out..." you tend to certainly sound judgemental. There is an old saying... The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Witness Lee fell short in some areas, as we all have.
Absolutely no doubt in my mind that he did... Like we all do. And one doesn't need to know a thing about Witness Lee to know this... As scripture is clear that it is foolish to think any natural human can be trusted. When I came in contact with his ministry I never once thought to think Witness Lee or his minstry with infallible.

Shoot... I don't even think the scripture that I read is infallible. And I'm certainly not alone (which is why there are so many versions of it). This is why I have dozens of resources (beyond WL's ministry) that I use to consider scripture before the Lord. Scripture tells us that the Lord is building His church, and that He is doing this in and through His growth in life in all believers... And our fellowship with one another in love. That's about as clear as the matter gets. I wonder as you read the comments on this website if you can say without question that this way of the Lord's building is being expressed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
His ministry is not the word of God, the Bible is.
I've never though of WL's ministry as scripture... I've only though of it as a resource that can help open up scripture... Much like any other resource that the Lord gives us and uses to do so. But I wonder...Can you tell me which version of scripture do you think is God's word... Seeing that there are so many different versions available?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
If he helps some believers, great! But so do many other people.
No doubt on both matters. And this is even clear in WL's ministry... Just a week or so ago I was reading a ministry footnote to scripture and only realized it wasn't actually from the ministry but was all Darby if I remember correctly. So even in WL's ministry we can see that other people can help believers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Did he contribute? Maybe... But to hang your Christian walk on a man is wrong.
In my experience... His ministry is certainly a help. But I absolutely do not hang my hat on the man, or even His ministry. I try my best to hang my hat — abide in — Jesus Christ. He, not Witness Lee, or any other man, is my Lord and Savior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
Jesus is the way, not WL.
Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumbaya View Post
If he contributed, that's great. But reading his ministry is not NEEDED for Christians to 1) have a relationship with Jesus 2) allow HIS leading 3) fellowship with other Christians and preach the gospel.
I never said or suggested it was/is in any of matters... 1, 2, or 3... But you "...chucking out..." his ministry isn't either. But on the matter of "...If he contributed..." I know from my own experience that his ministry has... And I fully believe that if you're honest... You will admit that, in one way or another, and to one degree or another, it's the same for you.

And if so... Knowing inwardly that you did gain something — even a little something — from his ministry... To use the phrase "...If he contributed..." would be a bit dishonest. Maybe you had expectations that were not met. Over the years I learned to try and not have expectations. Slaves shouldn't have expectations... As we do not belong to ourselves.
02-12-2018 02:30 PM
Steel
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Witness Lee does not own the truth.
I never said or suggested he did... Nor have do I think he does.

But I certainly enjoy reading his ministry... And have profited from it in spirit.

Which is of the Lord.
02-11-2018 07:26 PM
kumbaya
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel View Post
So you will not be eating from the tree of life anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.

And what about prophesying — speaking for the Lord and speaking forth the Lord — will you not be prophesying anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.

If a believer is constituted with Christ... Then this believer is constituted with truth.

And there is without a doubt... Much truth being revealed in the ministry of Witness Lee.

And to say there isn't is to deny what scripture tells us... And to deny the work of the Spirit of God.

And these are two things no believer should endeavor to pursue.
Are you implying that to continue your walk with the Lord that you must involve the ministry of Witness Lee?

I fully believe I can read the Bible, and the Bible ALONE and be constituted.

Many believe this.

We don't need WL's ministry. If parts of it help you, fine. But there's no denying the accusations against him might make you carefully examine what you're reading from him. I'm not here to judge whether or not he did or didn't contribute. But, no one is without sin- Abraham, Moses, David, even Paul. Witness Lee fell short in some areas, as we all have. His ministry is not the word of God, the Bible is. If he helps some believers, great! But so do many other people.

Did he contribute? Maybe... But to hang your Christian walk on a man is wrong.

Jesus is the way, not WL.

If he contributed, that's great. But reading his ministry is not NEEDED for Christians to 1) have a relationship with Jesus 2) allow HIS leading 3) fellowship with other Christians and preach the gospel.
02-11-2018 05:46 PM
Indiana
Re: Ron Kangas in New York - Unique Ground of Oneness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Lifting up a man and a ministry has caused turmoil and division in the churches. They need to back off and be found boasting in the Lord alone. A people rich in a ministry, but poor in Christ will have the man and ministry as their ground of meeting. And will be unable to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace with other believers. The sectarian oneness in the Local Churches is not what pleases God's heart the most. They are not lined up with their own teachings meant to protect them within the sphere of the New Testament oneness of the Body of Christ.
Dear Ron, I want to respond to your conference message in New York which was apparently engendered by someone(s) on the internet you feel are not speaking the truth. Actually, you or some on the internet, such as myself, might be in darkness (as you say), and not realize it. As for me, I like to correct myself, when needed. And, I hope you will be open one day to capitulate to the truths I or others unveil about you or brothers Nee and Lee, and admit that you or they have been wrong.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1s...xpUjhKVUU/view



The blending brothers shared this word and Watchman Nee's fellowship on When We Cannot Follow Those Who Deviate from the Truth

Blending Brothers Teach
We Cannot Follow Those Who Deviate from the Truth


“First, we must be very clear that when a leader violates an essential truth either in teaching or in practice, we cannot follow him. If the path that leader is taking leads us into division from the Body of Christ or from the proper standing of a local church, we cannot go along with him. In some cases, the assertion of authority compromises the standing of a local church, making it instead a local sect. This is because the leaders' claims to authority become the basis of receiving believers into fellowship.

afaithfulword.org/articles/DiscerningAuthority.htm


Afaithfulword.org says, quoting Nee,

“If anyone thinks that he should not be divisive, he should first bear in mind what it means to be divisive. Being divisive means being divided from the Body. The division in 1 Corinthians 12 refers to a division from the Body (v. 25), not a separation from a group which is not according to the Body." The Collected Works of W. Nee, vol. 50, p. 820)

“Thus, to depart from a sect is not an act of rebellion.

“A man can revolt only against a legitimate government; he cannot revolt against a government which is itself not legitimate. It is rebellion to separate oneself from a legitimate government, but it is not rebellion to separate oneself from a government that is not legitimate. (Nee, vol. 50, p. 824)



Are the blending brothers conducting a legitimate church government? Or not? Are they inclusive or exclusive of fellow believers? What does their track record say?


The Ground of Oneness Becomes
the Receiving of and Obedience to Deputy Authority


Introduction

The local churches have long been under the influence of the teaching of deputy authority beginning in China with Watchman Nee. When I first heard the related terms, the oracle of God, the minister of the age, the acting God, the one wise master-builder, the commander-in-chief - terms being applied to Witness Lee in the 1980s – I was in full agreement. I was in one accord with the brothers who were campaigning for the churches to line up with Witness Lee, as a universal leader, as men were swept up in full abandon to him and with strict resolve to follow him in “the Lord’s new move”. This “new move”, though, unwittingly established a new ground for meeting.

Ironically, the blending brothers describe this mutant condition “Some transmute the basis of the oneness of the believers by the assertion of their own authority to the point where the actual ground of oneness becomes acceptance of and obedience to their authority.” (Properly Discerning Spiritual Authority, DCP)

The collaboration of church members to “hand over” themselves to an apostle figure took place earlier in China under the direction of brother Nee, in full-scale manner, as it was later with Witness Lee in Taipei and the US. The church environments at these times became heavily ministry centered and focus on a leader was to the point that coming under his authority and following his leadership was “indispensable” to the oneness; their oneness, which included oneness with a man and a ministry.

A book by Lily Hsu, My Unforgettable Memories of Watchman Nee and the Shanghai Local Church (2013) is a transparent fellowship concerning brother Nee and his influence in the church, most notably the development of his spiritual authority in Shanghai and throughout China. A review of Watchman Nee’s dramatic rise in supremacy helps in understanding Witness Lee’s similar ascent and the path of the blending brothers since, as global leaders of the “local churches”. These movements engaged in by brothers Nee, Lee, and We (blending brothers) were assertive to the point where the actual ground of oneness they established was acceptance of and obedience to their authority. Standing on this narrow ground forfeited the inclusive ground of oneness in the Body and erected a high wall of division instead.


Steve Isitt
02-10-2018 09:00 PM
HERn
Re: Reminder to Brother We

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Are you also disputing those legendary stories about Ray Graver?

He was called "X-Ray" Graver because he could just look at the brothers and know they were "in the flesh."
i never met him. I think satan is pretty good at scanning people, so I don't think having that ability is something to preach to hundreds in a conference,
02-10-2018 10:14 AM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel View Post
So you will not be eating from the tree of life anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.
Witness Lee does not own the truth.
02-10-2018 07:52 AM
Steel
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
I’m chucking all of their books (finally!) and am looking for ministers and ministries that have borne the fruits of the Spirit. In another analogy, throw out the leavened lump, get rid of the leaven and start making a new unleavened loaf.
So you will not be eating from the tree of life anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.

And what about prophesying — speaking for the Lord and speaking forth the Lord — will you not be prophesying anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.

If a believer is constituted with Christ... Then this believer is constituted with truth.

And there is without a doubt... Much truth being revealed in the ministry of Witness Lee.

And to say there isn't is to deny what scripture tells us... And to deny the work of the Spirit of God.

And these are two things no believer should endeavor to pursue.
02-09-2018 10:07 PM
kumbaya
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Looking back at the LSM Office during the "New Way," Philip Lee was rightly excommunicated by the elders in Anaheim for molesting the sisters and corrupting the young brothers.

These victimized young men and women should have been temporarily quarantined to make sure they had not become sick due to their contact with Philip Lee.

Since Philip Lee never repented, nor had he shown any remorse over his actions, he should never have been restored to the fellowship by those toadies appointed by his father to replace the rightful elders.
Whatever happened to Phillip Lee and the other brother? What about their wives and WL grandkids?
02-09-2018 04:14 AM
Ohio
Re: Reminder to Brother We

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Ron Kangas said he can scan or read the saints. Not much different from the corner palm reader.
Are you also disputing those legendary stories about Ray Graver?

He was called "X-Ray" Graver because he could just look at the brothers and know they were "in the flesh."
02-08-2018 07:08 PM
HERn
Re: Reminder to Brother We

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Take it from me. Ron Kangas is not all that. He's just a scribe of Witness Lee.
Ron Kangas said he can scan or read the saints. Not much different from the corner palm reader.
02-07-2018 07:15 PM
awareness
Re: Reminder to Brother We

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Many leaders in our nation's Capitol downplay the seriousness of a major expose' involving them, the leaders of our nation, past and present; and spiritually, on a much higher level, the well-documented serious record of divisive behavior by LSM has been downplayed vigorously by governing authorities in our own D. C., (Anaheim).

As a reminder to Ron Kangas I have some things against you:

Take it from me. Ron Kangas is not all that. He's just a scribe of Witness Lee.
02-07-2018 06:56 PM
Indiana
Re: Reminder to Brother We

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Lifting up a man and a ministry has caused turmoil and division in the churches. They need to back off and be found boasting in the Lord alone. A people rich in a ministry, but poor in Christ will have the man and ministry as their ground of meeting. And will be unable to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace with other believers. The sectarian oneness in the Local Churches is not what pleases God's heart the most. They are not lined up with their own teachings meant to protect them within the sphere of the New Testament oneness of the Body of Christ.
Many people downplay the major expose' unfolding in Washington D. C. about certain government leaders and officials, past and present; And spiritually,, the well-documented record of divisive behavior in Anaheim has been downplayed vigorously by governing authorities in Anaheim for decades.

Clean up D. C. and clean up Anaheim, the fountainhead of both good and evil in the Local Churches.
02-05-2018 05:49 PM
Indiana
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Indiana, I recently reread the first chapter of 1 Corinthians http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/1.htm in which Paul chides the Corinthians who were picking their favorite apostle (including him, Peter, and Christ) to meet in their names and exclude others who didn't, and were boasting of their wisdom.

In the middle of the chapter Paul says "The foolishness of God is wiser than man". He also says "He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord".

It sickens me to hear such boasting "Witness Lee the wise master builder". Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord!

Lifting up a man and a ministry has caused turmoil and division in the churches. They need to back off and be found boasting in the Lord alone. A people rich in a ministry, but poor in Christ will have the man and ministry as their ground of meeting. And will be unable to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace with other believers. The sectarian oneness in the Local Churches is not what pleases God's heart the most. They are not lined up with their own teachings meant to protect them within the sphere of the New Testament oneness of the Body of Christ.
02-04-2018 11:02 PM
JJ
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Indiana, I recently reread the first chapter of 1 Corinthians http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/1.htm in which Paul chides the Corinthians who were picking their favorite apostle (including him, Peter, and Christ) to meet in their names and exclude others who didn't, and were boasting of their wisdom.

In the middle of the chapter Paul says "The foolishness of God is wiser than man". He also says "He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord".

It sickens me to hear such boasting "Witness Lee the wise master builder". Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord!
02-04-2018 06:33 PM
Indiana
Re: Henry Hon tossed out by Paul Hon

Ron Kangas says,"There is no successor to this wise master builder [Witness Lee], but there is an open group of being-blended brothers who are absolutely consecrated to the Lord to continue the work begun by this wise master builder. (Ron Kangas, "The Builders of the Divine Building, The Ministry Magazine, vol. 10, no. 1, p. 150)

In other words the "being-blended brothers" are indeed, Brother We, who wield the axe freely to cut off such ones as Henry Hon and Nigel Tomes, et al (100s), just as Brother LEE cut off (100s). We hear a few names officially, but they have families and brothers close to them who got the leprosy and really "they are all cut off" as I was told by an elder who informed me when he cut me off.
WHAT A BRAZEN BUNCH THEY ARE IN MANIFEST DELUSION OF BEING GOD'S REPRESENTATIVE AUTHORITY.

And, this is done in the age of "the little ones", no more giants, supposedly. You are the giant, Brother We, issuing orders from Head Quarters in Anaheim. We understand the assertion that all those who follow you are included in the "Brother We"; but as far as church authority goes, you are following the blueprint of a giant, Witness Lee; and since Henry Hon did not line up with the blueprint, he got cut off, under your direction and full approval and confirmation, and by his own brother, Paul Hon!
01-25-2018 08:45 PM
JJ
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Great! I think many of us on this forum wondered what the error was? Some take the view that every word from WL's ministry is suspect.

Instead I would recommend taking the attitude of the church in Ephesus, test the prophets and determine which are false. But, and this is the big but, do not leave your first love. Jesus went to the cross so that we might all be saved, regardless of how "clear our vision is". We need to follow the Lord to the cross with the same attitude.

To me, when we accepted the condemnation of other Christians and gatherings that was the fork in the road where we left our first love.
ZNP, as usual you say some thought provoking things!

For me the final test of Nee, Lee, and all things LSM is “rotten fruit, rotten tree”. The more I learn about the about the sources and means of this movement, rather than thinking “where did we (being them, me, and all of their followers) go wrong?” It is now “we were all off from the beginning”.

I’m chucking all of their books (finally!) and am looking for ministers and ministries that have borne the fruits of the Spirit. In another analogy, throw out the leavened lump, get rid of the leaven and start making a new unleavened loaf.
01-25-2018 01:08 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Or none at all. Quarantines and discipline are more based on one's opinions and concepts than it being a matter of gross sin.
Looking back at the LSM Office during the "New Way," Philip Lee was rightly excommunicated by the elders in Anaheim for molesting the sisters and corrupting the young brothers.

These victimized young men and women should have been temporarily quarantined to make sure they had not become sick due to their contact with Philip Lee.

Since Philip Lee never repented, nor had he shown any remorse over his actions, he should never have been restored to the fellowship by those toadies appointed by his father to replace the rightful elders.
01-25-2018 12:43 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
LSM's use of the terms "quarantine" and "discipline" to my understanding have a very flimsy spiritual basis.
Or none at all. Quarantines and discipline are more based on one's opinions and concepts than it being a matter of gross sin.
When one is apt to "overturn the apple cart" or is not kowtowing the brothers, he cannot be trusted to be "one with the brothers".
For sake of the rest of the assembly those ones must be put out so they don't infect the rest of the assembly with their poisonous concepts.
Just think of the dilemma would happen if deputy authority teaching is no longer accepted and each one is deemed accountable to one another. Even if you're a conference speaker, you're accountable to each one in attendance.
Core issue in LC terminology regarding quarantines and discipline always is trust.
01-25-2018 12:32 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
In every sense of the word by definition it was Phillip Lee who was treated as if quarantined. Having someone to check up on him providing care until he was "restored". While it was the quarantined brothers who were treated as if they were excommunicated.

If we use scripture as a picture regarding quarantines, Miriam was put outside the camp during her quarantine and the Israelites did not move until she was healthy to be brought back in.
Is there a NT analog to this story? The brother who was excommunicated in 1Cor was also put outside the camp temporarily, repented, was forgiven, and then brought back in.

LSM's use of the terms "quarantine" and "discipline" to my understanding have a very flimsy spiritual basis.
01-25-2018 12:27 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
According to definitions, quarantines are for healthy people, so that their health can be monitored for a time, usually 21 days.

Excommunication is for the morally repugnant ones like Philip Lee, according to I Cor. 5.
In every sense of the word by definition it was Phillip Lee who was treated as if quarantined. Having someone to check up on him providing care until he was "restored". While it was the quarantined brothers who were treated as if they were excommunicated.

If we use scripture as a picture regarding quarantines, Miriam was put outside the camp during her quarantine and the Israelites did not move until she was healthy to be brought back in.
01-24-2018 09:15 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Quarantine versus excommunication. What the difference? If you go by scripture it's not intended to be permanent. In local church practice quarantine and excommunication are the same thing. Otherwise, how come no one ever checked up on the brothers who were quarantined?
Real or imagined, when FTTA trainees allegedly knocked on the door of a quarantined brother and when word allegedly reached Ron Kangas, why should he be upset about it? Instead of reacting with anger, he should have reacted with joy.
I do believe the real issue quarantine is used instead of excommunication is legal. Concerns of being sued for slander.
According to definitions, quarantines are for healthy people, so that their health can be monitored for a time, usually 21 days.

Excommunication is for the morally repugnant ones like Philip Lee, according to I Cor. 5.
01-24-2018 01:35 PM
Freedom
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
I do believe the real issue quarantine is used instead of excommunication is legal. Concerns of being sued for slander.
WL expressed that very concern, and I do believe he had reason to be concerned about being sued, since he made a number of slanderous statements about various brothers.

He was used to people accepting anything he said as fact without having to provide any proof. If WL really felt that his so-called quarantines were legitimate, then there is no reason that he couldn't have called it an excommunication like it really was.

Quote:
We must see, however, that to make a public announcement of a kind of excommunication involves a person’s name, position, and status in today’s society. This is serious and very risky. This involves families and human relationships. In this matter we have been under the influence of the tradition of Christianity, but in my experiences over the past fifty years I have surely learned that to make a public announcement, especially in a matter concerning immorality, is not so safe and profitable. If we announce a certain person’s being excommunicated in a public meeting, he could appeal to a court of law and say that we are spoiling his name. He would claim that since you said he committed immorality, you must provide the evidence in a court of law. This would cause much trouble. This one may have committed that sin, but according to law you must present the evidence. This sinning one may not have that much growth in the Lord, but he may bold a high position in society. He would vindicate himself by bringing this case to the law court to clear up his name. This shows us the turmoil that such a public announcement could cause…

Witness Lee, Elders’ Training, Book 4, Ch 7
01-24-2018 12:50 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Drake, Your use of QUARANTINE is such a farce. Wikipedia says this ...



Supposedly Lee was isolating "ill persons" from the other saints because they were sick. He really didn't even know what the word "quarantine" really meant. Quarantine is used for healthy people in order to determine if they are sick. So he got the whole thong backwards, as usual, in some twisted attempt to label his actions other than "excomunication."

In reality, Lee copied his heretical practice of expelling potential rivals and whistleblowers from Amish shunning and the Exclusive Brthren.
Quarantine versus excommunication. What the difference? If you go by scripture it's not intended to be permanent. In local church practice quarantine and excommunication are the same thing. Otherwise, how come no one ever checked up on the brothers who were quarantined?
Real or imagined, when FTTA trainees allegedly knocked on the door of a quarantined brother and when word allegedly reached Ron Kangas, why should he be upset about it? Instead of reacting with anger, he should have reacted with joy.
I do believe the real issue quarantine is used instead of excommunication is legal. Concerns of being sued for slander.
01-24-2018 03:26 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Quarantine is not excommunication.... though it probably feels like it on the quarantined end.

Drake
Drake, Your use of QUARANTINE is such a farce. Wikipedia says this ...
Quote:
A quarantine is used to separate and restrict the movement of people; it is a 'state of enforced isolation'. This is often used in connection to disease and illness, such as those who may possibly have been exposed to a communicable disease. The term is often erroneously used to mean medical isolation, which is "to separate ill persons who have a communicable disease from those who are healthy".
Supposedly Lee was isolating "ill persons" from the other saints because they were sick. He really didn't even know what the word "quarantine" really meant. Quarantine is used for healthy people in order to determine if they are sick. So he got the whole thing backwards, as usual, in some twisted attempt to label his actions other than "excommunication."

In reality, Lee copied his heretical practice of expelling potential rivals and whistle-blowers from Amish shunning and the Exclusive Brethren.
01-23-2018 02:22 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Great! I think many of us on this forum wondered what the error was? Some take the view that every word from WL's ministry is suspect.

Instead I would recommend taking the attitude of the church in Ephesus, test the prophets and determine which are false. But, and this is the big but, do not leave your first love. Jesus went to the cross so that we might all be saved, regardless of how "clear our vision is". We need to follow the Lord to the cross with the same attitude.

To me, when we accepted the condemnation of other Christians and gatherings that was the fork in the road where we left our first love.
01-23-2018 12:48 PM
Indiana
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post

Indy,

...In short, even though I appreciate all the research you did into the various problems that exist within the system, it is probably time to (mostly) abandon them and seek to be established within a good Christian assembly. Almost any will do. I know that you are not just isolated as a Christian. But your constant desire to return to the LRC suggests that you are not really one with whoever it is you are meeting with. Your heart is elsewhere.

Hi OBW, I have been meeting with an assembly in Seattle for three years. They receive me and I receive them because we are all fellow members in the one Body. Whenever I use the term, the Body of Christ, it is with the whole Body in mind, never meaning the Local Churches only. And, this assembly where I meet, and many others have a similar heart-attitude of receiving others. And, they may or may not have a Local Church background or have even heard of Nee or Lee.

I think Henry Hon's fellowship is excellent and his example right. He is not interested in a following but is very exercised to go out and meet and to encourage others in their relationship with the Lord - and with members within and outside their particular sphere of fellowship. This creates the right atmosphere, one of love and acceptance, and induces the "morale" in THE BODY OF CHRIST among believers all around the globe.

Henry and Sylvia returned yesterday from the Philippines where they attended two pastor's conferences. There were twenty pastors present in Tagaytay, which is located two hours outside Manila, and all were to have read Henry's book before the conference.

Afterwards, based on the word, the fellowship in the book, and the Lord's prayer in John 17, a brother who is considered a "bishop" among 70 churches, announced that they all agreed to drop their names and just care for Christ alone.

This, assuredly, is a call into the oneness among fellow believers for the building up of the one Body of Christ. (They're all encouraged also to take care of the unbelievers and invite them to their meeting, and to go to visit Catholics and other groups of believers without expecting them to come into their fellowship. This, in fact, was how the Local Church brothers were encouraged by W. Lee in the beginning - to go out to seek others meeting in that city who were also seeking the oneness of the Body according to the New Testament charge - and the Lord's prayer, "that they all may be one".)

Henry has also been invited to Africa to be with brothers there, who will then take him by bus to visit assemblies in seven cities. The bus ride and time in the homes will afford them much opportunity for fellowship on this ground of oneness, which is Christ alone.
01-23-2018 10:55 AM
OBW
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
That is the issue. Making things right in the Body.
Indy,

I continue to understand your thought here. And it does not address the Body, but instead a rather small collection of assemblies within a tremendously larger body of Christ. From this perspective, you would seem to be perpetually taking exception with the nature of a particular bushel of corn found in all the grain elevators in Wichita, KS put together. (I use Wichita because as I flew into that city several times many years ago, it had the appearance of being the grain elevator capital of the U.S. Might not be technically true, but there was one particular section that appeared to be a solid mile of collected storage elevators along a rail line.)

My point is that the Body of Christ is huge and diverse in both its doctrines and practices, as well as frailties. The LRC is but a minute part of that whole. You continually seek to have that small group mend its ways, but for what purpose? Do you really think that there is something so special about them that you cannot survive outside of their acceptance of you? If you do, then they are "the church" to which you are required to tell it and they have rejected you. The record in Matthew does not continue on to state that if the church does not hear you, or rejects your claim of wrong that you set up shop across the street from them and shout at them with a bullhorn. And if that is what has happened, then I cannot imagine that being back on the "inside" with them is actually a healthy place to be.

For the LRC to admit to the errors you raise is to undermine the claim of super-authority of Nee, Lee, and now the LSM cadre. It will undermine the claim of being under the unique speaking of God and with it the claim that so many special doctrines are actually in the scripture.

In short, even though I appreciate all the research you did into the various problems that exist within the system, it is probably time to (mostly) abandon them and seek to be established within a good Christian assembly. Almost any will do. I know that you are not just isolated as a Christian. But your constant desire to return to the LRC suggests that you are not really one with whoever it is you are meeting with. Your heart is elsewhere.
01-21-2018 10:32 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post

This case with Ron Kangas is not just about he and I; it is on another level and manifests the deep-rooted problem of LSM inspired authoritarian leadership whose debilitating ways ought to be broadcast and confronted.
Apostle John addressed that in 3 John.
Like 3 John, the matter of receiving becomes too political. The Church in Spokane won't receive you unless things are made right in Seattle. That in itself is a catch 22 when the responsible brothers there won't even respond. In your writing Hear the Cases the matter of brother Mario's inability to be received in Vista is just as similar. The matter of receiving becomes a political matter.
01-21-2018 09:49 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The co-workers are alive still and so are we so there is time to reconcile if that ever occurs to someone still holding an offense.
That's been my prayer and hope for many years. Perhaps the blended co-workers are unwilling to let go of offenses which explains lack of reconciliation and an absence of grace.
01-21-2018 06:53 AM
JJ
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Brothers! You speak as if I have NOT experienced what you are now saying I should do.

This case with Ron Kangas is not just about he and I; it is on another level and manifests the deep-rooted problem of LSM inspired authoritarian leadership whose debilitating ways ought to be broadcast and confronted.

Some have the following perspective.

"In some limited sense, I'm not so sure Isitt and Luther are so different. Luther did have other options, joining others outside the RCC, but like Isitt, he grew up with the belief that his church was the only true church, standing on the proper ground of truth and oneness, with a leader who had the proper lineage of authority.

Both Luther and Isitt, when examining their core ideology, had no intention of leaving their roots. Both worked tirelessly to reform apparent errors and return their church back to its former days of "glory." We can stand back and look at both of them and "laugh," knowing that they are fighting an overwhelming and hopeless battle, but frankly it's none of our business.

Personally, I like to let each one man serve God according to conscience. Who am I to know whether or not the Lord is not directing their very steps? I am convinced that the Lord does direct some to stay in the LC in relative silence, He has directed others to leave the LC in silence, and He has directed some others to speak out long and loud to expose the errors of their ways. Who are we to judge? God's ways are higher than our ways."

(Ohio, 2011)
Brother Indiana,

I’m sorry it has been 10 years of waiting for Ron Kansas to respond to your reasonable request. I believe you have followed the process of confronting a sinning brother that the Lord Jesus spelled out in Matthew 18:15-17 http://biblehub.com/blb/matthew/18.htm
You have gone together with other brothers to ask for repentance (look how many have joined you in the request!) and being rebuffed, have you have told it to the church.
Unfortunately, it is time to treat Ron as a pagan and taxgatherer.... pray for his salvation.
Be in peace brother!
01-20-2018 11:51 AM
Indiana
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Indiana>* Do you understand, brother Drake? It's not a small thing to blow up a small member, and the truth he brings; then to ignore him, as if he and his message is nothing.”

I absolutely agree Indiana. What I am saying is that the One you need to tell this to and the One you need to turn it over to once and for all is the Lord. The incident has greatly affected you Brother and you need to be unshackled from it.

Drake
Brothers! You speak as if I have NOT experienced what you are now saying I should do.

This case with Ron Kangas is not just about he and I; it is on another level and manifests the deep-rooted problem of LSM inspired authoritarian leadership whose debilitating ways ought to be broadcast and confronted.

Some have the following perspective.

"In some limited sense, I'm not so sure Isitt and Luther are so different. Luther did have other options, joining others outside the RCC, but like Isitt, he grew up with the belief that his church was the only true church, standing on the proper ground of truth and oneness, with a leader who had the proper lineage of authority.

Both Luther and Isitt, when examining their core ideology, had no intention of leaving their roots. Both worked tirelessly to reform apparent errors and return their church back to its former days of "glory." We can stand back and look at both of them and "laugh," knowing that they are fighting an overwhelming and hopeless battle, but frankly it's none of our business.

Personally, I like to let each one man serve God according to conscience. Who am I to know whether or not the Lord is not directing their very steps? I am convinced that the Lord does direct some to stay in the LC in relative silence, He has directed others to leave the LC in silence, and He has directed some others to speak out long and loud to expose the errors of their ways. Who are we to judge? God's ways are higher than our ways."

(Ohio, 2011)
01-20-2018 04:29 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I absolutely agree Indiana. What I am saying is that the One you need to tell this to and the One you need to turn it over to once and for all is the Lord. The incident has greatly affected you Brother and you need to be unshackled from it.
Great point, this is also what I have seen from the NT.

Matt 18 -- "If he won't hear you" -- the Lord realizes this is one possible outcome. You have fulfilled your requirement, tell it to the church and move on.

Rev 3 -- Church in Philadelphia -- "go out no more" -- it is very clear that before you can arrive at Philadelphia you will need to "go out". It is part of the process. We learn to empathize with others by going through these experiences.

Church in Laodicea -- Jesus is outside knocking calling on those still there to come out and sup with Him. Yes, you may have entered the church in Laodicea because of the Lord's calling, but you can also leave because of His calling as well.
01-19-2018 09:42 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Indiana>* Do you understand, brother Drake? It's not a small thing to blow up a small member, and the truth he brings; then to ignore him, as if he and his message is nothing.”

I absolutely agree Indiana. What I am saying is that the One you need to tell this to and the One you need to turn it over to once and for all is the Lord. The incident has greatly affected you Brother and you need to be unshackled from it.

Drake
01-19-2018 08:41 PM
HERn
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Do you understand, brother Drake? It's not a small thing to blow up a small member, and the truth he brings; then to ignore him, as if he and his message is nothing.
Indiana, don't know if you have realized that "fellowship" in the LSM local churches only flows from the greater brother to lessor brother. One way the maximum brothers defend themselves from fellowship is by "see no evil, hear no evil ". Now if the would only practice "speak no evil" things would be healthier.
01-19-2018 05:45 PM
Indiana
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I don't see it that way at all.

There are ways to approach and then there are other ways. Some work and some don't. So far, it hasn't.

Drake
My approach to the brothers has been many and varied. They are afraid of the truth, which they will have to face when their running stops. They have had plenty of time and opportunity to leave their pre-occupation with Nee and Lee and come to Christ alone. And to make things right in the Body.

That is the issue. Making things right in the Body. It's not a matter of me "holding onto an offense", but of holding Ron Kangas accountable in the Body - to me and to all who heard such slanderous and debasing words from him, as he spoke in Ecuador, in Seattle, and how many other places? This is to take care of the Body, and all the members, including Ron Kangas himself, the perpetrator. Do you understand, brother Drake? It's not a small thing to blow up a small member, and the truth he brings; then to ignore him, as if he and his message is nothing.
01-19-2018 03:09 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I already explained why Indiana's approach would never work. LSM leaders behave like the Gentiles. (Matt 18.15-17) They rule the LC's as the Gentiles do. (Matt 20.25-26)
I don't see it that way at all.

There are ways to approach and then there are other ways. Some work and some don't. So far, it hasn't.

Drake
01-19-2018 02:48 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
No, I don't believe the brother's approach remotely meets the spirit, attitude, or procedure in Matthew 18. Nor does it meet the 70 X 7 forgiveness threshold.

In any case, I said if his objective was to get answers then apparently his approach is not working. Isn't that obvious?
I already explained why Indiana's approach would never work. LSM leaders behave like the Gentiles. (Matt 18.15-17) They rule the LC's as the Gentiles do. (Matt 20.25-26)
01-19-2018 02:28 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Perhaps, Drake is right, since Indiana is using the instructions given by the Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 18, and the Ron Kangas and the Blendeds can only respond according to Lee's instructions.

And since Lee is gone ...
No, I don't believe the brother's approach remotely meets the spirit, attitude, or procedure in Matthew 18. Nor does it meet the 70 X 7 forgiveness threshold.

In any case, I said if his objective was to get answers then apparently his approach is not working. Isn't that obvious?

But your last point is very important. Lee is gone and any opportunity to reconcile while both are on the way is now past. The co-workers are alive still and so are we so there is time to reconcile if that ever occurs to someone still holding an offense.

Drake
01-19-2018 02:00 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Indiana>"They have clearly deviated from the path they began on and will not answer questions put to them."

Indiana, If that is your objective then maybe your approach is wrong.

Just saying.

Drake
Perhaps, Drake is right, since Indiana is using the instructions given by the Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 18, and the Ron Kangas and the Blendeds can only respond according to Lee's instructions.

And since Lee is gone ...
01-19-2018 01:56 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Indiana>"They have clearly deviated from the path they began on and will not answer questions put to them."


Indiana,

If that is your objective then maybe your approach is wrong.

Just saying.

Drake
01-19-2018 01:30 PM
Indiana
Re: Speaking of false statements

1. The LSM group that passes over the falsehoods in three books of fiction about former leaders lay claim to A falsehood by "certain dissenting ones".

2. A poster, Drake, has pointed out A false statement made by me.

3. I point out a thousand false statements made by two blending brothers and Witness Lee that seriously damaged the oneness in the churches; and the "dissenting ones" that Unfaithful Witness.org refers to have made more true statements than false ones.

Drake, there are huge questions looming over your leaders and their claims to church authenticity. They have clearly deviated from the path they began on and will not answer questions put to them. They will not come outside their insular group; they hide their sins; and they lift up their demigods, while routinely putting down "dissenters', as if dissenting to sin and division and false witness is an ignoble characteristic for believers.

In the link is an expose' of the blending brothers who have become deluded to the point of not caring for right and wrong and cling to their ministers of the age, who they have made, in reality, their base of oneness - not Christ alone - which creates a distinct division in the body of Christ.

Three LSM books examined

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us
01-18-2018 12:33 PM
Indiana
Re: RON KANGAS: THE UNACCOUNTABLE

http://youtu.be/BKv4n_0ond0

It has been 10 years to the day, January 18, 2018, since Ron Kangas exercised his GLOBAL AUTHORITY at an international elders conference, speaking against several people (former leaders, internet contributors, ME BY NAME, current "independent" workers), thinking that speaking covertly in a faraway place would be safe place for him. A LOCAL CHURCH BROTHER, however, had this message (in the link above) on his server and notified me. I became aware in THIS WAY, (not by RON contacting me), and I LET HIM KNOW several times I AM OPEN TO HEAR HIS SPECIFIC COMPLAINTS AGAINST ANYTHING I have written beginning with IN THE WAKE OF THE NEW WAY, and including my book refuting Ron's slanted and disingenuous book on former prominent elder, John Ingalls.

If anyone listening in today is supportive of LSM, I am also, but not when they lie, hide details, displace blame, cover over sin and anything and everything else detrimental to the name of Lee, Nee, or their handsome yearly salary of $80 to $100,000. ("Don't think that it is not a part of it"), says Don Hardy (2001), who was a former elder in Los Angeles and elsewhere for many years.

I have been speaking the truth regarding division since 2001, and LSM does nothing, AND CAN DO NOTHING, intelligently, or formally, to discount me.

RON KANGAS WHO IS HEAVILY ASSOCIATED WITH LSM, POSTURES HIMSELF AS A PURVEYOR OF TRUTH, but HAS LIED ABOUT ME IN PUBLIC AT AN INTERNATIONAL LEADERS CONFERENCE and elsewhere, AND WILL NOT REPENT AND MAKE THINGS RIGHT BEFORE GOD and Man in the Body of Christ!


“Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue, that you may live
and possess the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
(Deut, 16:18-20)


Witness Lee

"We have to know that today in the church we don’t exercise autocracy, a dictatorship; or democracy, according to people’s opinion; but we like to honor God’s authority as our government, and this is what we call theocracy, Gods government.

"Firstly, you must have the judges in order to keep God’s justice. The divine government pays attention firstly to justice. Even today, any government on this earth that does not practice justice, that government will sooner or later be over, right? A strong government must be one that is built upon justice. Everything must be just. Everything must be fair. Everything must be right. This is justice." (LSM radio transcription)


Three LSM books examined

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us
01-12-2018 04:56 PM
HERn
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Hello brother Drake. Thank you for pointing out my error.

You actually help me to know the truth you speak of, that the "Brother We" reference by a blending brother was actually referring to all the saints. I can confirm that aspect of their meaning of "we", because I saw in my last video training Ron Kangas did share in an intimate ending to S of S fellowship, that "Brother Lee" is no longer with us, now it is up to the Shulamite, all the saints, the little ones, pursuing the Lord together (we). Sounds very good to me.

Ron Kangas was as soft and humble and pleasant as could be for those precious minutes of his sharing in the Son with all the little members, including himself as one of them, and all the leaders of the churches. In that rather moving scene there was no one lifted up but the One, the Lord Jesus, with members of His Body. But that was Brother Ron talking (theoretically, as a theorist).

Soon "Brother We" would be back into their movement according to the "vision of the age", as the collective "minister of the age" as global authorities, uplifting "Brother Lee" and "Brother Nee", in "the ministry of the age" - producing, to be sure, ministry churches of the ages of those surviving the purge and the cookie cutter.
Bro Indiana: I can't tell if you are being sarcastic, condescending, or genuine.
01-12-2018 02:26 PM
Indiana
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

[COLOR="black[/COLOR]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Indiana>“the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches"......

This is false.]

Yet, please provide a reference where the blended coworkersassert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,”

The reference to include the bold points above.

You know Indiana, it is my observation that few here lend an ounce of credibility to Watchman Nees teaching on the church....his stock goes up slightly if you use him to bash Witness Lee or fellow coworkers. Are you currently in a local church that follows his teachings concerning the church? Are you a theorist or a
practitioner?

Drake
Hello brother Drake.

Thank you for pointing out my error. I hadn't considered the extended meaning, the more inclusive aspect of the term "Brother We".

You actually help me to know the truth you speak of, that the "Brother We" reference made by a blending brother was actually referring to all the saints, in part. I can confirm that aspect of their meaning of "we", because I saw in my last video training Ron Kangas did share in an intimate ending to S of S fellowship, that "Brother Lee" is no longer with us, now it is up to the Shulamite, all the saints, the little ones, pursuing the Lord together (we).

Sounds very good to me and good to see Ron blended in the Body.

He was as soft and humble and pleasant as could be for those precious minutes of his sharing in the Son with all the little members, including himself as one of them.

In that rather moving scene there was no one lifted up but the One, the Lord Jesus, together with members of His Body.

HOWEVER, soon enough leaders "Brother We" would be back into movement mode according to the "vision of the age", as the collective "minister of the age" as global authorities, uplifting "Brother Lee" and "Brother Nee", in "the ministry of the age" - producing, to be sure, ministry churches of the age with those who survived the purge, and the cookie cutter.leadership of the age.
01-02-2018 02:31 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

And I thank him for it. Or thank my lack of introspection. Maybe both kept me from catching a demon.

Good point(s) bro Drake. Thanks.
01-02-2018 11:41 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1
Bro awareness,

If it was to be avoided under any and all circumstances then the 3 volume work would have been excluded from the collected works. All three volumes are there.

However, similar to cautions about using the book, the Normal Christian Church Life, as a manual so also did the Spiritual Man come with its own precautions. The issue is not with the book or its content, it is rather our own inclinations... in this case, introspection. It is possible to become too occupied self-examining how you match up to the descriptions in the book. In reality, we will eventually read things and teachings from the Bible that extend well beyond our experience. That is the precaution, you read it, start gazing at yourself, and lose sight of Christ, the One and only One, who enables us to overcome and become an overcomer well pleasing to Him.

Drake
01-01-2018 05:22 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Maybe the book triggered the demons already in them to react.
Quite possible bro Evangelical. I read it and didn't get any demon. Still the elders frowned upon me reading it.

You can thank Jessie Penn-Lewis for the book ; the Jezebel that killed the Welsh Revival. She taught that born again believers can be possessed by demons. She thought at least some of the phenomena of the Welsh Revival was the work of Satan.

But after learning what she did to Evan Roberts I wondered if she herself had one, or maybe seven like Mary of Magdala..

And then, after learning of Nee's sexual promiscuity, I wonder if he had one.

Demons here, demons there, demons everywhere. You can't even be a whole person, of flesh, soul, and spirit, without being possessed by demons. And I thought Jesus had power over them, and protected his followers from them.

I guess at the time of reading the book my faith in Jesus kept me from becoming possessed ... maybe my ignorance protected me.

Either that, or the demons had no interest in me. I am a difficult fellow. As you surely know by now. So I'm no stranger to rejection. I feel hurt that the demons didn't want me. What's wrong with me?

Then again, what do I know about demons? Satan never wrote a book. I guess the Satanic Bible came close. I read that too, before the LC, and wrote and did an oral speech on it in college. Maybe that inoculated me from the demons in The Spiritual Man.

What protected you bro Evangelical? Question. If you don't believe in Satan does that make you an atheist?
12-31-2017 08:40 PM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I do like the Spiritual Man. However, your post reminded me of the warning the author issued with it.

“The reader of this book should also be careful that he does not take the knowledge he has acquired from this book as a tool for criticizing others. ...
Drake
Drake, great point. I also pulled in an extract of your post from the other thread because I think it is logical to consolidate my viewpoint here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
...
The vision that governs me is not Brother Lee’s vision or any elder’s vision. It is the vision imparted to me by the Holy Spirit.
...
This vision carried me through turbulence in the church life not unlike that found in the Corinthian church. Outwardly, it a mess, nevertheless, the vision speaks it is still the church of God in Corinth. All in Asia forsook Paul yet Paul was faithful to the heavenly vision.
...
And just to calm any angst about what I mean, I condemn and have condemned the actions of Philip Lee and have stated that someone should have called the cops but he does not define what LSM is or their total contribution to the work of ministry. Still, even if a LSM were to publish Harry Potter books it does not affect the vision that guides me because I did not receive it from LSM.
...
I absolutely agree the criteria are for self reflection rather than for criticizing others. I did not make any conclusion that your vision is delusion (frankly though, I suspect it is) . No one else except yourself can discern whether it is true vision. But it doesn't mean you cannot use some external references to help.

I offered the web site link as kind of checklist for self-assessment applicable to all believers who think they have received a vision from God. From your response probably you don't think it is necessary. So for the time being, let's say your vision is true.

I like your analogy of the Corinthian church. How do you see your position in the LC when comparing with the Corinthian church? Are you one of the members in the church who tolerated or even covered up the unrighteousness or Paul who directly pointed out what was wrong?

What did Jesus do when he saw the Holy Temple became a den of robbers? Did He say it is still God's Temple and forgive them 70x7?

When you say you condemned the actions of Philip Lee, did you step up to fellowship with Lee or other elders? If yes, what was the outcome?

I asked you months ago when you first shared your vision in this forum. Now I ask again. How much closer is the LC now to the vision you received 40 years ago?

Jesus told us long ago where true worship should be in. But we keep building up new temples as if they were something worthy to be kept at all cost. History told us God destroyed the first and second temple, no matter how grand or precious they were.

Back to the vision/delusion topic, I believe the greater the vision one receives, the greater caution one should take. The fine line between faith and pride can be crossed so easily especially for people with leadership position in the church. Even Paul can sometimes sound proud in his letters. I am not saying he was, but not anybody can be Paul.

Fortunately I am just a little brother. I don't have the grand vision to change the nations or the church. I just speak truthfully what I believe. If incidentally, it can turn one person slightly closer to God, it would already be a great achievement for me. Could I be deluded as well? Definitely! I have to check from time to time.
12-31-2017 07:29 PM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

****Incomplete post. Please delete.****
12-31-2017 02:23 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
OMG!!! You didn't say that! When I was in the LC they warned against reading that book. They claimed that some brothers had actually become demon possessed by reading it.

I read it anyway, and agree. It should come with a skull and crossbones on the cover.


That explains my LC experience. We were living by the soul. Lee was living by the soul, and eventually admitted it.
Maybe the book triggered the demons already in them to react.
12-31-2017 01:22 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
You like Spititual Man? Let's see what Nee said...

Often Satan injects pride into the believer’s spirit, evoking in him an attitude of self-importance and of self-conceit. He causes him to esteem himself a very outstanding person, one who is indispensable in God’s work. Such a spirit constitutes one of the major reasons for the fall of believers: “pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall” (Prov. 16.18).

Seems quite applicable to the MOTA.
I do like the Spiritual Man. However, your post reminded me of the warning the author issued with it.

“The reader of this book should also be careful that he does not take the knowledge he has acquired from this book as a tool for criticizing others. It is easy for us to say that this person is soulish and that person is fleshly. But it is difficult to know if we ourselves are the same. The truth is given to set men free; it is not given to criticize others. I am afraid that some who are naturally inclined to show themselves off will not change after receiving the truth in this book, but will use the truth in this book to criticize their brothers and sisters. This book is meant to lead men on the right path; it is not meant to judge men. If we do this, it means we are no less soulish than the ones we criticize, only a bit more fleshly. This danger is the greatest, and we should guard against it carefully.”

Drake
12-31-2017 10:02 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
You like Spititual Man? Let's see what Nee said...

Often Satan injects pride into the believer’s spirit, evoking in him an attitude of self-importance and of self-conceit. He causes him to esteem himself a very outstanding person, one who is indispensable in God’s work. Such a spirit constitutes one of the major reasons for the fall of believers: “pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall” (Prov. 16.18).

Seems quite applicable to the MOTA.
Yes it does. And good job sourcing that from Nee. Obviously Nee was describing himself. And it fits Lee too.
12-31-2017 09:58 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I am not denying delusion Im disagreeing with what that site says about it.

If I came across such a website I would know they are not relible to speak of delusion for the aforementioned reasons..they clearly dont have the solution as they are all praying to dead ones.

A better resource is Nees the spiritual man.
OMG!!! You didn't say that! When I was in the LC they warned against reading that book. They claimed that some brothers had actually become demon possessed by reading it.

I read it anyway, and agree. It should come with a skull and crossbones on the cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanG
When a person lives by the soul they get counterfeit spiritual experiences.
That explains my LC experience. We were living by the soul. Lee was living by the soul, and eventually admitted it.
12-31-2017 09:33 AM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Thank you Evangelical. This is an excellent summary of the subject “delusion” and as was discussed here. Your due diligence sourcing reference material is commendable.

Drake
You like Spititual Man? Let's see what Nee said...

Often Satan injects pride into the believer’s spirit, evoking in him an attitude of self-importance and of self-conceit. He causes him to esteem himself a very outstanding person, one who is indispensable in God’s work. Such a spirit constitutes one of the major reasons for the fall of believers: “pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall” (Prov. 16.18).

Seems quite applicable to the MOTA.
12-31-2017 08:46 AM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I'm not aware of Lee quoting the RCC. He did acknowledge its positives and that there are genuine believers in it.
Does this justify your false allegation saying I am trusting those who pray to demons?
12-31-2017 08:07 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I am not denying delusion Im disagreeing with what that site says about it.

If I came across such a website I would know they are not relible to speak of delusion for the aforementioned reasons..they clearly dont have the solution as they are all praying to dead ones.

A better resource is Nees the spiritual man.

Tip- the cause and solution for delusion is not sin and repentence but the inability to discern between the soul and spirit. Catholic and orthodox are repenting all the time even whipping themselves but they still pray to the dead.

When a person lives by the soul they get counterfeit spiritual experiences. This is what saint worship is.
Thank you Evangelical. This is an excellent summary of the subject “delusion” and as was discussed here. Your due diligence sourcing reference material is commendable.

Drake
12-31-2017 07:19 AM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post

Didn't WL quote ideas from the RCC and Protestants? He must be trusting the evil religious Babylon, right?

Brother, think twice before deploying your shoot the messenger tactics.

Last but not least, didn't I indicate I just went into that web site and hadn't spent further time on the details? I don't quite understand why you are in such a haste to try deny delusion. Are you afraid that it might be true?

----------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs 20:9-10 Who can say, I have made my heart clean; I am pure from my sin? Differing weights and differing measures, Both of them are an abomination to Jehovah.
I am not denying delusion Im disagreeing with what that site says about it.

If I came across such a website I would know they are not relible to speak of delusion for the aforementioned reasons..they clearly dont have the solution as they are all praying to dead ones.

A better resource is Nees the spiritual man.

Tip- the cause and solution for delusion is not sin and repentence but the inability to discern between the soul and spirit. Catholic and orthodox are repenting all the time even whipping themselves but they still pray to the dead.

When a person lives by the soul they get counterfeit spiritual experiences. This is what saint worship is.
12-31-2017 06:03 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Alb>” I don't quite understand why you are in such a haste to try deny delusion. Are you afraid that it might be true?”

Alb, I didn’t say it did not exist, I just said it was irrelevant to your argument. Evangelical did not say it did not exist, he just said the group you cited are under a stronger delusion themselves and that invalidates their ability to discern delusion in others.

Hopefully the strong evidence presented above will steer you away from your mistaken belief that we are denying that delusion exists.

Drake
12-30-2017 10:05 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post

Didn't WL quote from the RCC too? He must be trusting the evil religious Babylon, right?

Brother, think twice before deploying your shoot the messanger tactics.

Last but not least, didn't I indicate I just went into that web site and hadn't spent further time on the details?

----------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs 20:9-10 Who can say, I have made my heart clean; I am pure from my sin? Differing weights and differing measures, Both of them are an abomination to Jehovah.
I'm not aware of Lee quoting the RCC. He did acknowledge its positives and that there are genuine believers in it.
12-30-2017 09:46 PM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
By quoting this website you are trusting those who pray to demons and are deluded into thinking they are truly in touch with Mary and the saints when those demons respond with counterfeit signs and wonders, feelings,visions etc.
Didn't WL quote ideas from the RCC and Protestants? He must be trusting the evil religious Babylon, right?

Brother, think twice before deploying your shoot the messenger tactics.

Last but not least, didn't I indicate I just went into that web site and hadn't spent further time on the details? I don't quite understand why you are in such a haste to try deny delusion. Are you afraid that it might be true?

----------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs 20:9-10 Who can say, I have made my heart clean; I am pure from my sin? Differing weights and differing measures, Both of them are an abomination to Jehovah.
12-30-2017 04:59 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
I do not believe in prayer to saints.



Does the person's belief in something we don't agree with prevent him/her from presenting other facts we can agree with?
It depends, it is relative. For example I disagree with sabbath keeping but that would not invalidate what a sabbath keeper says about Jesus.

In this case they believe in saint veneration and prayers to the dead which to me is a stronger delusion and superstition than the type they claim to be able to discern or prevent. This to me invalidates their ability to discern delusion given that saint worship is one of the biggest and clearest and most unbiblical delusions of all.

Prayer to saints is not merely a different belief that we can disagree with like whether or not we should keep sabbath. These people regularly commune with demons masquerading as dead saints, through prayer. They are basically clairvoyants.

By quoting this website you are trusting those who pray to demons and are deluded into thinking they are truly in touch with Mary and the saints when those demons respond with counterfeit signs and wonders, feelings,visions etc.
12-30-2017 04:36 PM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Nope. You do not have to believe those things to quote the reference you did.

That is why I am asking. Do you believe what was written in that section?
I do not believe in prayer to saints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The irony is that the person you quoted about delusions believes that prayer to saints is a cure for delusion...which in itself is delusional. Prayer to saints is delusional because dead saints arent listening only demons.
Does the person's belief in something we don't agree with prevent him/her from presenting other facts we can agree with?
12-30-2017 01:47 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
Do I have to in order to agree with what I quoted? That site contains contents from different sources. What Evangelical quoted is from a different section.

BTW, did you yourself look into it? Or just reading those quotes from me and Evangelical?
The irony is that the person you quoted about delusions believes that prayer to saints is a cure for delusion...which in itself is delusional. Prayer to saints is delusional because dead saints arent listening only demons.
12-30-2017 10:31 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
Do I have to in order to agree with what I quoted? That site contains contents from different sources. What Evangelical quoted is from a different section.

BTW, did you yourself look into it? Or just reading those quotes from me and Evangelical?
Nope. You do not have to believe those things to quote the reference you did.

That is why I am asking. Do you believe what was written in that section?

Drake
12-30-2017 09:31 AM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Alb,

You don’t actually believe all this stuff, do you?

Drake
Do I have to in order to agree with what I quoted? That site contains contents from different sources. What Evangelical quoted is from a different section.

BTW, did you yourself look into it? Or just reading those quotes from me and Evangelical?
12-30-2017 08:28 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Often a natural mental disease originate from the passion of pride and is also accompanied by spiritual delusion. An example is the ancient king Nebuchadnezzar who got mad because of his pride.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
You don’t actually believe all this stuff, do you?

Drake
Drake, do you believe what happened to Nebuchadnezzar in the book of Daniel, or not?

Seems to me that if Lee said that, then you would believe it and defend it.
12-30-2017 07:22 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The site even says which saints to pray to....


When recovering from spiritual delusion and mental illness, Orthodox Christians resort to the powers of the Lord Jesus Christ, His Saints and Angels: the Mother of God, Michael the Archangel, Saint Nicolas and other Saints, to the Grace of the Sacred Mysteries: Holy Communion, Confession and Unction. Also it is helpful to pray to the Saints that already helped the particular person in other situations. Also it is necessary to take the medications prescribed by the doctor. Often a natural mental disease originate from the passion of pride and is also accompanied by spiritual delusion. An example is the ancient king Nebuchadnezzar who got mad because of his pride.
Alb,

You don’t actually believe all this stuff, do you?

Drake
12-30-2017 03:49 AM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The site even says which saints to pray to....


When recovering from spiritual delusion and mental illness, Orthodox Christians resort to the powers of the Lord Jesus Christ, His Saints and Angels: the Mother of God, Michael the Archangel, Saint Nicolas and other Saints, to the Grace of the Sacred Mysteries: Holy Communion, Confession and Unction. Also it is helpful to pray to the Saints that already helped the particular person in other situations. Also it is necessary to take the medications prescribed by the doctor. Often a natural mental disease originate from the passion of pride and is also accompanied by spiritual delusion. An example is the ancient king Nebuchadnezzar who got mad because of his pride.
Do not quench the Spirit; Do not despise prophecies, But prove all things. Hold fast to what is good; Abstain from every kind of evil.

And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in full knowledge and all discernment, So that you may approve by testing the things which differ and are more excellent, that you may be pure and without offense unto the day of Christ, Being filled with the fruit of righteousness, which is through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
12-30-2017 03:16 AM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
I came across the following web site today... an entire site talking about spiritual delusion. Seems to have some valid points. Probably worth spending time to further read...
http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-i...itual-delusion
The site even says which saints to pray to....

When recovering from spiritual delusion and mental illness, Orthodox Christians resort to the powers of the Lord Jesus Christ, His Saints and Angels: the Mother of God, Michael the Archangel, Saint Nicolas and other Saints, to the Grace of the Sacred Mysteries: Holy Communion, Confession and Unction. Also it is helpful to pray to the Saints that already helped the particular person in other situations. Also it is necessary to take the medications prescribed by the doctor. Often a natural mental disease originate from the passion of pride and is also accompanied by spiritual delusion. An example is the ancient king Nebuchadnezzar who got mad because of his pride.
12-29-2017 07:02 PM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
We can only look at them with hope and prayers. Reason won't reach them. They didn't get there with reason, and reason won't pull them out.

Maybe love will.
Thanks Awareness for reminding me about love.

Have to confess that I sometimes use this forum to let off some steam. I used more direct and provocative words here than in meetings with brothers and sisters in the LC.

It's just so irritating seeing how fast fellow brothers and sisters switch to denial mode when discussing truth not from the LC Messages or problems in the LC. I just hope one day they can break out of their shell. For the meantime, I put the blame on the LC leadership.
12-29-2017 05:22 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio>”If it's not in one of your ministry books, then it can't be true?”

Brother Ohio,

It is not about whether it is in a ministry book, it is whether it exists anywhere!

Drake
I understand completely!

Just call them all lepers, and you don't have to listen to these witnesses.
12-29-2017 04:06 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT,

Hmmmm...

So if I take the weekend off, collect myself, then after the weekend i look at this again, then I will see things differently, maybe the way you do..... then all will be well.

Nah... I think it is reasonable for someone to provide a reference for an accusation involving world domination.

Thanks and have a calm, collective, and safe weekend,
Drake
I think it would serve you well
12-29-2017 02:26 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Brother Drake - may I suggest you take the weekend and collect yourself? James 1:19
LofT,

Hmmmm...

So if I take the weekend off, collect myself, then after the weekend i look at this again, then I will see things differently, maybe the way you do..... then all will be well.

Nah... I think it is reasonable for someone to provide a reference for an accusation involving world domination.

Thanks and have a calm, collective, and safe weekend,
Drake
12-29-2017 02:14 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Ohio>”If it's not in one of your ministry books, then it can't be true?”

Brother Ohio,

It is not about whether it is in a ministry book, it is whether it exists anywhere!

Drake
12-29-2017 02:02 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Sorry brother. It does not validate the accusation. That does not even meet the minimum standard.
Brother Drake - may I suggest you take the weekend and collect yourself? James 1:19
12-29-2017 02:01 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio,

Okay, you don’t have a reference. Therefore, it is what it is. Just another example of an accusation made without a shred of evidence to substantiate it.
Dear Drake,

Do you have any idea how arrogant this sounds? Let me get this straight -- If it's not in one of your ministry books, then it can't be true?

Obviously you have so long been removed from the scriptures and from the reality, that the Bible itself has no more authority over you. Only Lee's books will do for you.

The Bible says accusations against leaders require witnesses. (I Tim. 5.19) This forum has hundreds of witnesses, but that means nothing to you because you must read it in an official Lee-and-Blended-sanctioned book, only available thru LSM's standing order.
12-29-2017 12:15 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1

Ohio,

Okay, you don’t have a reference. Therefore, it is what it is. Just another example of an accusation made without a shred of evidence to substantiate it.

Indiana>” the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,

But then, why would you want or expect proof of the accusation? Why would you care whether one was provided or not? Is it a standard in the forum that posters provide references to substantiate their accusations? No, it is not and no, you wouldn’t care. You have the results you say. and that validates the accusation. Circular reasoning.

Sorry brother. It does not validate the accusation. That does not even meet the minimum standard.

Perhaps Indiana has the reference. Let’s see.

Drake
12-29-2017 11:39 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-2>”Drake should be more concerned about violating God's word and stumbling His children, than some supposed "ad hominem" that hurt his feelings.”

Brother Ohio

Don’t concern yourself about my feelings. I can assure they are not hurt.

However, I am very concerned about the brazen violation of Gods Word on display in this forum in attacking brothers and sisters in the Lords Recovery. I am also concerned about the stumbling of His children that also goes on here day by day. Case in point, someone accuses coworkers of making assertions to establish and maintain global control over the local churches and cannot provide a single instance of the so-called assertion!

Now, that is pathetic!

Drake
I'm not attacking any bro/sis in the Recovery. You are delusional just like a little brother said. Besides, are you asserting that Philip Lee was saved? Can you prove it? He molested multiple sisters and Daddy protected him. And you want us all to be silent?

Concerning the global takeover and control of LC's: Read the accounts. The Lord said 2 or 3 witnesses establish these words. We have hundreds of witnesses. Yesterday I posted John So's testimony. I have testified of LSM takeovers in Ohio and Canada. John Ingalls' account is another. Don Rutledge spoke of Lee's initial takeover in the Jan 1974 elders meetings with Lee and Lee's intimidation tactics. The Feb 1986 Loyalty Pledge where all were coerced to sign under threat of expulsion. The list goes on.

OK, maybe we should not call you delusional. But your posts sure are.
12-29-2017 10:42 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
I came across the following web site today... an entire site talking about spiritual delusion. Seems to have some valid points. Probably worth spending time to further read...
http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-i...itual-delusion
Interesting link bro *A little brother*. Thanks. I had lots of spiritual experiences in the local church. One that stands out is: The Vision. I eventually found out that it was a delusion.

The problem with those that are deluded is the same problem as with addicts ; only they can free their minds. All the talking from others won't do the job. Most that are deluded are too far out there for a lifeline to reach them.

We can only look at them with hope and prayers. Reason won't reach them. They didn't get there with reason, and reason won't pull them out.

Maybe love will.

But then, I also found out that even love in the local church is a delusion. Don't toe the line and the love vanishes in thin air. It's the kind of love found in all cults. Matthew 5:46.
12-29-2017 10:36 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-2>”Drake should be more concerned about violating God's word and stumbling His children, than some supposed "ad hominem" that hurt his feelings.”

Brother Ohio

Don’t concern yourself about my feelings. I can assure they are not hurt.

However, I am very concerned about the brazen violation of Gods Word on display in this forum in attacking brothers and sisters in the Lords Recovery. I am also concerned about the stumbling of His children that also goes on here day by day. Case in point, someone accuses coworkers of making assertions to establish and maintain global control over the local churches and cannot provide a single instance of the so-called assertion!

Now, that is pathetic!

Drake
12-29-2017 10:17 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
I spoke what I have to. It's up to you to hear or not.

Pardon my ignorance. I have to look up Ad Hominem from wikipedia. I don't think that's what I intended. But anyway, interesting definition, especially the last part...

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".[3]

Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is categorized as an informal fallacy,[4][5][6] more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.


However, in some cases, ad hominem attacks can be non-fallacious; i.e., if the attack on the character of the person is directly tackling the argument itself. For example, if the truth of the argument relies on the truthfulness of the person making the argument—rather than known facts—then pointing out that the person has previously lied is not a fallacious argument.
Correct alb.

When you say that the person you are debating is delusional , that is an ad hominem attack having nothing to do with the argument itself. You are attacking the person, not the argument. Other ad hominem include but not limited to saying someone is dishonest, unintelligent, a liar, devious, bad motives, etc. all intended to dismiss the person rather than create a compelling argument.

You may think those things about someone, and you may even say them but they are fallacies in argument. When fallacies in argumentum are used it often indicates that the person advancing them has run out of convincing points in an argument. In other words, unable to convince others of their point of view they resort to attacking the motives, intelligence, truthfulness, or sanity of their opponents. Thinking their arguments were compelling yet still ineffective it must then be a problem with the person who remains unconvinced. Therein lies the fallacy. When you charged me with being delusional, though you may believe it, it was a fallacy in your argument and remains such until you can first prove I am delusional or was at some point in the past. My not accepting your argument is in and of itself insufficient to establish my being delusional.

Hope that helps.

Drake
12-29-2017 09:48 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Brother Ohio,

Let me make sure I got this down accurately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
I spoke what I have to. It's up to you to hear or not.
a little brother,

LSMers like Drake are known for their wordsmithing and lawyering. It's all part of the game that is played to silence critics online, since we cannot be sued like normal publishers. They have almost a century long history of shooting the messenger, shaming and slandering whistleblowers who dare to speak their conscience. Their vacuum-sealed closed system allows nothing to penetrate their bubble.

Notice that he now wants me to research LSM's vast online inventory of messages, all polished and sanitized from recordings of their meetings, as if hundreds of eye-witness accounts are insufficient. There is not a brother in their program who does not know that LSM's senior Blendeds maintain a global authority over the local churches. Titus Chu and others tried to buck the system, and we saw what LSM is capable of. Made me sick.

LSM, like the Pharisees of old, make void the word of God to maintain their Lee-established traditions. For example, they expelled Titus Chu and others for publishing their own books, yet they filed lawsuits in many GLA cities for meeting halls and bank assets. One of those cities was Columbus, Ohio where I once migrated to help found that church. The Bible tells us to go publish the word of God, but no verse ever said that only LSM could do that. The Bible tells us specifically not to sue our brothers, yet LSM feels that verse is for everyone else and not for them. Pathetic!

Drake should be more concerned about violating God's word and stumbling His children, than some supposed "ad hominem" that hurt his feelings.
12-29-2017 08:26 AM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Alb,

It is relevant for every follower of a Christ, just not relevant as part of an argument the way you were using it.

The delusion in this case would be accepting the Fallacy in Argumentum (aka the False Analogy) as being valid.

Your Ad Hominem argument requires no further explanation.

Drake
I spoke what I have to. It's up to you to hear or not.

Pardon my ignorance. I have to look up Ad Hominem from wikipedia. I don't think that's what I intended. But anyway, interesting definition, especially the last part...

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".[3]

Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is categorized as an informal fallacy,[4][5][6] more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.


However, in some cases, ad hominem attacks can be non-fallacious; i.e., if the attack on the character of the person is directly tackling the argument itself. For example, if the truth of the argument relies on the truthfulness of the person making the argument—rather than known facts—then pointing out that the person has previously lied is not a fallacious argument.
12-29-2017 08:19 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Drake, you are so silly!

Ron Kangas graduated from Princeton. He knows better than to put that stuff in writing. Why do you think no one was ever permitted to record the meetings?
Brother Ohio,

Let me make sure I got this down accurately.

An assertion by the coworkers to establish and maintain their global authority over the local churches is not actually published in written or audio form .....anywhere?

How about you Indiana, is that your understanding also?

Drake
12-29-2017 07:56 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
On the contrary, I think it is relevant for every follower of Christ.

But I am not surprised by your response. Yeh, why would someone led by God's divine vision for 40 years fall into such simple trap of delusion?
Alb,

It is relevant for every follower of a Christ, just not relevant as part of an argument the way you were using it.

The delusion in this case would be accepting the Fallacy in Argumentum (aka the False Analogy) as being valid.

Your Ad Hominem argument requires no further explanation.

Drake
12-29-2017 07:35 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
So funny. Looks like you have recovered from your little Oz "setback."

When I was little, those monkeys were the scariest things I ever saw.

To this day I'm still traumatized when surrounded by flying monkeys.
For me, it was the singing munchkin trio that caused me to sit straight up in bed in a cold sweat at two in the morning. To this day, I shoo them away whenever they come around.

12-29-2017 06:18 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Indiana>“the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,

This is false.

Yet, please provide a reference where the blended coworkersassert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,”

The reference to include the bold points above.
Drake, you are so silly!

Ron Kangas graduated from Princeton. He knows better than to put that stuff in writing. Why do you think no one was ever permitted to record the meetings?
12-29-2017 06:17 AM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-2

Alb,

Totally irrelevant. I could apply the same quotes to this forum.

Drake
On the contrary, I think it is relevant for every follower of Christ.

But I am not surprised by your response. Yeh, why would someone led by God's divine vision for 40 years fall into such simple trap of delusion?
12-29-2017 06:13 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Brother Ohio,

If you also tell me you were captured by hordes of flying monkeys I can handle that. Nevertheless, I will harbor doubts about what really happened to you.

Drake
So funny. Looks like you have recovered from your little Oz "setback."

When I was little, those monkeys were the scariest things I ever saw.

To this day I'm still traumatized when surrounded by flying monkeys.
12-29-2017 05:47 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Your reaction here actually shows the opposite is true, and now you project your feelings on me. Sorry but it is you now playing games.

That video clip is a classic piece depicting those held in gripping fear suddenly realizing they were had by a con.

Sorry if you can't handle our personal experiences of being released out thru the Door of the sheep. (John 10.7)
Brother Ohio,

If you also tell me you were captured by hordes of flying monkeys I can handle that. Nevertheless, I will harbor doubts about what really happened to you.

Drake
12-29-2017 05:36 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-2

Alb,

Totally irrelevant. I could apply the same quotes to this forum.

Drake
12-29-2017 05:32 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Indiana>“the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,

This is false.

Yet, please provide a reference where the blended coworkersassert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,”

The reference to include the bold points above.

You know Indiana, it is my observation that few here lend an ounce of credibility to Watchman Nees teaching on the church....his stock goes up slightly if you use him to bash Witness Lee or fellow coworkers. Are you currently in a local church that follows his teachings concerning the church? Are you a theorist or a practitioner?

Drake
12-28-2017 09:17 PM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I described in that note the vision imparted to me. What if anything about what I have written do folks disagree with?
I came across the following web site today... an entire site talking about spiritual delusion. Seems to have some valid points. Probably worth spending time to further read...

http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-i...itual-delusion

Understanding of delusion among the Holy Fathers
.
.
St. Ignatius believed that there are different kinds of delusion corresponding to passions, by which they are generated. Pride is an indication of any kind of delusion. "Terrible pride, like the pride of demons”, St. Ignatius wrote, “is the main feature of those who assimilated one or another delusion" (Ibid, pp. 233).
.
.
Another more extensive kind of delusion is connected to this one; St. Ignatius called it "conceit". A person in this state does not excite the imagination, but he focuses on the experience of a variety of "heart sensations" and erroneously attributes them to the action of grace. Dreaminess also operates in such a man, but "acts solely in the abstract field" (Ibid, pp. 232). The deluded person makes up "false spiritual state, close fellowship with Jesus, the inner conversation with Him, the mysterious revelation, voices of pleasure ..." (Ibid). In addition to striving for grace feelings, people exposed to this error have a high opinion of themselves and attribute to themselves the gifts of grace and spiritual virtues, " they seem to be intoxicated with themselves, with their state of self-delusion, seeing it as the state of grace" (Ibid, pp. 230) . On this basis, St. Ignatius believes that heresies, schisms, impiety, blasphemy originated from this "conceit" (Ibid, pp. 235). Interconnection of both types of delusion is that the mind and the heart, not purified from the passions and not renovated by the Holy Spirit, aspire to see God and to experience His presence in the soul, but, not being able to this, make up imaginary grace gifts for the purpose of enjoyment. Thus, such states "are the actions of subtle vanity and lust"

.
.
12-28-2017 05:13 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
... confirming my assessment that you have no interest in comparing or examining Brother Lee’s teachings with scripture. Furthermore, your last post indicates something very different... it is all about sport, perhaps some kind of entertainment. In that regard, there is no distinction between those in this forum who have departed the faith and those who still claim it. Both behave the same and have found an alliance in each other against a common enemy... Brother Lee and anyone who refuses to accept the charges against him no matter how frivolous or unfounded.

I have never asked nor will ask for a pass for myself or Brother Lee. For you to suggest I have is simply another diversion. In fact, it is I that have pressed for a scriptural examination again and again on allegation after allegation. No takers. Rather, the arguments offered to my requests appear to pivot on irrelevant things.... like Wizard of Oz movie clips.

I understand the purpose of this forum is not seek out and establish truth, but I can only hope.

Drake
Your reaction here actually shows the opposite is true, and now you project your feelings on me. Sorry but it is you now playing games.

That video clip is a classic piece depicting those held in gripping fear suddenly realizing they were had by a con.

Sorry if you can't handle our personal experiences of being released out thru the Door of the sheep. (John 10.7)
12-28-2017 05:00 PM
awareness
Re: Ministry Churches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
"[I]Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local.
When T. Austin Sparks took this position Witness Lee said he was passing gas.

Thanks for your post bro Indiana. It's still current today, and on message.
12-28-2017 04:39 PM
Indiana
Re: Ministry Churches

http://lordsrecovery.us/uploads/3/4/...rychurches.pdf

EXCERPT

Global Authority of the Blended Co-workers

In conjunction with their concept that they are the true church on a proper ground of oneness, possessing and ministering the “up-to-date speaking” of the Lord, the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”, having received the mantle personally from Brother Lee. However, when the blending brothers took the unprecedented step in “the Lord’s recovery” to draw a line in the sand with the One Publication Proclamation, the Body of Christ reacted and a big turmoil ensued.

David Canfield
The Present Turmoil in the Churches, 2006

“I beseech you therefore, I, the prisoner in the Lord, to walk worthily of the
calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and meekness, with
longsuffering, bearing one another in love, being diligent to keep the oneness
of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace: One Body and one Spirit, even as
also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one
baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all
(Eph. 4:1-6).
These items alone are the factors of the genuine oneness.


The Practical Result of “Publication Work”: A Sectarian Oneness

“In contrast, by making such a great issue of their “one publication” theory and attempting to monopolize the ministry in the Lord’s recovery, the blending brothers are indeed seeking, whether intentionally or not, to make us a sect according to their ministry. How can we say otherwise if, in practice, that is the only ministry we are allowed to receive? Regardless of what we call it, it is still a sect.

Watchman Nee states:

What havoc has been wrought in the Church because so many of her ministers have sought to bring the churches under their ministry, rather than by their ministry serve the churches. As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they cease to be local and become sectarian….

“The worker to whom God has given fresh light upon His truth should encourage all who receive that truth to swell the ranks of the local church, not to range themselves around him. Otherwise, the churches will be made to serve the ministry, not the ministry the churches, and the “churches” established will be ministerial “churches,” not local ones.

The sphere of a church is not the sphere of any ministry, but the
sphere of the locality. Wherever ministry is made the occasion for the forming of a church, there you have the beginning of a new denomination.” (The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee).

D. Canfield continues,

“Closely related to this matter is that of becoming a sect according to a particular teaching. Even the best teachings, including the “high-peak” doctrines, can make us a sect if we overly stress them. In the same book Watchman Nee warns us of this very thing:

“The whole thought [of the Greek word for “heresies” in Galatians 5:20; “sects” in the RcV] is not of the difference between truth and error, but of division based upon doctrine. My teaching may be right or it may be wrong, but if I make it a cause of division, then I am guilty of the “heresy” spoken of here….God forbids any division on doctrinal grounds…. If a group of believers split off from a local church in their zeal for certain teaching according to the Word of God, the new “church” they establish may have more scriptural teaching, but it could never be a scriptural church.

If we wish to maintain a scriptural position, then we must see to it that the churches we found in various places only represent localities, not doctrines. If our “church” is not separated from other children of God on the ground of locality alone, but stands for the propagation of some particular doctrine, then we are decidedly a sect, however true to the Word of God our teaching may be… (Normal Christian Church Life, pp. 113-114).

“And in another statement that seems almost prophetic in light of today’s situation, he says:

"Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one…. The center always determines the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not. Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes all who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God…. There are no other churches in Scripture but local churches! (The Normal Christian Church Life, pp. 92-93) END (Excerpts from The Present Turmoil among the Churches November 9, 2006)


Distinguishing Themselves

But, such vision only lasted until the leadership “sought to bring the churches under the ministry” of a special leader and to establish his ministry stations in several key localities.

This took place in 1974, and began a more secure uniting of the “believers of different places” under one ministry. Brother Lee chose a brother, Max Rapoport, to assist him in the coordination of the churches into one new man.

Then in 1986 a pledge was signed by elders and co-workers world-wide to follow this special leader: n
“…We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry, the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth….
Further, their message in print in 2005 about having one publication – composed only of
materials by Nee and Lee – delineates them, creating “a sphere which divides those who
attach themselves to it from those who do not.” (The Normal Christian Church Life, pp. 92-93)

The “local churches” have distinguished themselves from the rest of the Body of Christ and
have brought the churches under the ministry of a special leader to form their church life.
And, “Wherever ministry is made the occasion for the forming of a church, there you have the
beginning of a new denomination.” (The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee)
.
Again, Nee’s statement, “What havoc has been wrought in the Church because so many of
her ministers have sought to bring the churches under their ministry, rather than by their
ministry serve the churches. As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they
cease to be local and become sectarian…
(The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee).

What havoc indeed! “And, the ‘churches’ established will be ministerial ‘churches,’ not local ones.” (pp138-139, Nee)

The “ministry materials” given in all the above references was to be a safeguard for the churches from turmoil and a guideline to keep them in the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. But the leadership has paid no attention to the safeguard, the guideline, or the warnings by Nee, and also by Lee, trampling underfoot such fellowship and, thus setting up the conditions for, and the causes of, turmoil and division.
12-28-2017 02:40 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Ohio>”Due to his own behavior and teachings, we must now compare his ministry and work to that recorded in the Bible. We have to apply the many tests of scripture to the ministry of WL, just as the early churches had to apply these tests to the many ministers they had.”


Brother Ohio, that sounded scholarly and scriptural and for a moment you had me. Then this mockery and derision...

Ohio>”Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE”

... confirming my assessment that you have no interest in comparing or examining Brother Lee’s teachings with scripture. Furthermore, your last post indicates something very different... it is all about sport, perhaps some kind of entertainment. In that regard, there is no distinction between those in this forum who have departed the faith and those who still claim it. Both behave the same and have found an alliance in each other against a common enemy... Brother Lee and anyone who refuses to accept the charges against him no matter how frivolous or unfounded.

I have never asked nor will ask for a pass for myself or Brother Lee. For you to suggest I have is simply another diversion. In fact, it is I that have pressed for a scriptural examination again and again on allegation after allegation. No takers. Rather, the arguments offered to my requests appear to pivot on irrelevant things.... like Wizard of Oz movie clips.

I understand the purpose of this forum is not seek out and establish truth, but I can only hope.

Drake
12-28-2017 12:50 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Your objections are about circumstantial matters, things temporal. Yet, the NT vision is not circumstantial or temporal. Ministers will come and go, ages will begin and end. Local churches will pass away.... for they are procedural. But the NT vision belongs to God, it is His desire, His purpose, His creation. It fulfills what He is after. It is an eternal matter. That is why Witness Lee detractors can carry on and on for years complaining about him, his son, and Blended brothers, and all the bad things that happened to them and others, ad nauseum, and yet never realizing that the thing that guides the members in the local churches by and large, is not a man, but a God-given vision. Some have said when Witness Lee died so did the NT vision..... what a concept! Did you defend the eternal integrity of the NT vision when that was stated or were you in the crowd that considers the best place for the NT vision is nailed in the coffin with Brother Lee? Where is your line in the sand on that matter? Do we stand on truth or do we permit profaning of our Lord's words by secularists to enjoin our narrative just because someone uses it as a point of attack on Brother Lee? Where is our line in the sand on that?

This is what I mean Brother Ohio. Ephraim is a cake un-turned. It is burnt on one side and uncooked on the other. Your argument about the NT vision was just that.... I asked you if you disagree with the description of the NT vision imparted to me and you immediately flip the cake over to the burnt side to burn it some more. I opened the door for you to agree or disagree with some or all of the NT vision I have received but the burnt side of the cake is preferable because heaven forbid if we find some points of agreement, some truth we can stand side by side on, lines we both agree to not cross... well, that would not fit the dominant narrative of this forum that if Witness Lee believed it must be bad for you and if you disagree with Witness Lee then any fallacious argument will do.

So, no, I am not equivocating, I am not being dishonest, and I am not delusional. those are all ad hominem attack tactics.

Drake
Brother Drake,

To examine the facts of LC history are not "ad hominem attack tactics," as you suggest. If that was true, the entire Bible would not record the numerous failures of the men of God. Neither should any historian write of church history. You demand special exempt status for W. Lee, where he is entitled to critique all others, and no one can ever examine his failures, especially when the children of God were hurt.

What privileges you ascribe here for Witness Lee are only to be enjoyed by the Firstborn Son of God, our Creator, our Savior, and our Lord.

If man's sins were all "circumstantial matters, things temporal," then why would the Bible speak of them? Why are there historians? In I Cor. 10, Paul says these things were "written for our admonition." You complain that we are obsessed with temporal things, and we "never realize that the thing that guides the members in the local churches by and large, is not a man, but a God-given vision." This is just LSM double-speak. Out of one side of your mouth you claim the vision is of God, the same God who ministers to all the body of Christ. Yet out of the other side you claim only W. Lee has brought this vision to us. Apparently you are unable to see the contradiction and hypocrisy here.

Sorry, but all the claims by WL, which I once believed, remind me of this classic video clip:

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE
12-28-2017 12:21 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I do distinguish these... but apparently you don't. Here is what I mean.

You (collectively) . In the process of condemning everything related to Witness Lee, a man hated by most on this forum in person and deed, you also make no defense of the NT vision.... not so much as to even articulate what it is or confirm what about it you agree with when it is defined as I have done with my viewpoint. Brother Ohio, you do not speak for everyone in this forum when you say no one disparages the NT vision. Most will not even acknowledge it exists because of some apparent psychology that suggests to agree with the NT vision is to agree with Witness Lee... and what a tragedy that would be!
Brother Drake, we have ex-LC-members on this forum who no longer esteem scripture as the word of God, so you can't classify everyone together. That's a bogus assertion you make about those on the forum not defending the N.T. vision. You claim "the vision" is unique to Lee, and that we "disparage both vision and channel making no distinction." I disagree with this on at least two counts.

Firstly, Lee's unique teachings do not constitute a "vision." At most he should be considered a minister or a teacher, regardless of the many claims he made for himself. His teachings go way outside the bounds of the scripture and Christian orthodoxy, despite your many protests. LC teachings are filled with "extras," which our Lord calls "leaven," and some of these teachings are heretical to the greater body of Christ.

What I learned from W. Lee that is Biblical, sound, and orthodox I will always appreciate. Because of all the leaven, however, I have been forced to examine everything against scripture, as Paul says "prove all things, hold on to the good." I was wonderfully saved thru a dear brother I worked with, who later wanted to return to the RCC. I have always lovingly appreciated him, but I refuse to be obligated to also return to the RCC. Likewise with W. Lee. I love him, appreciate all the good, but I do not "owe him my very existence," as Titus Chu once wrote to John Ingalls. I can say the same about TC -- I love him, appreciate all the good, but I do not owe him my very existence.

Secondly
, W. Lee elevated himself to the apostolic status which Paul once had. But Paul lived a life far beyond any reproach. He exercised his conscience to be right with God and man. Half of the N.T. confirms that this "channel of the vision" was established a pattern by God to all God's children for two millennia. Lee may have claimed the same for himself, but the facts of history prove otherwise. This forum is filled with the sins, failures, and unrighteousness of Lee and his sons, which he never once repented of. That is simply inexcusable. So many children of God have been hurt by LSM.

Due to his own behavior and teachings, we must now compare his ministry and work to that recorded in the Bible. We have to apply the many tests of scripture to the ministry of WL, just as the early churches had to apply these tests to the many ministers they had. 2 Corinthians, for example, enumerates many standards for these ministers. I have posted a few notable verses myself, such as LSM's practice of "peddling the word of God." The Lord commended Ephesus (Rev 2.2) for trying those who called themselves apostles and are not.
12-28-2017 10:19 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Here you are equivocating.

You say "the vision is not about a man," yet immediately go on to say that you are "always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision."

No one on this form disparages the N.T. vision.

We only point out the failures of leaders at LSM who have damaged the children of God.

Sorry that you are not honest enough to distinguish these.
I do distinguish these... but apparently you don't. Here is what I mean.

You (collectively) disparage both vision and channel making no distinction. In the process of condemning everything related to Witness Lee, a man hated by most on this forum in person and deed, you also make no defense of the NT vision.... not so much as to even articulate what it is or confirm what about it you agree with when it is defined as I have done with my viewpoint. Brother Ohio, you do not speak for everyone in this forum when you say no one disparages the NT vision. Most will not even acknowledge it exists because of some apparent psychology that suggests to agree with the NT vision is to agree with Witness Lee... and what a tragedy that would be!

Your objections are about circumstantial matters, things temporal. Yet, the NT vision is not circumstantial or temporal. Ministers will come and go, ages will begin and end. Local churches will pass away.... for they are procedural. But the NT vision belongs to God, it is His desire, His purpose, His creation. It fulfills what He is after. It is an eternal matter. That is why Witness Lee detractors can carry on and on for years complaining about him, his son, and Blended brothers, and all the bad things that happened to them and others, ad nauseum, and yet never realizing that the thing that guides the members in the local churches by and large, is not a man, but a God-given vision. Some have said when Witness Lee died so did the NT vision..... what a concept! Did you defend the eternal integrity of the NT vision when that was stated or were you in the crowd that considers the best place for the NT vision is nailed in the coffin with Brother Lee? Where is your line in the sand on that matter? Do we stand on truth or do we permit profaning of our Lord's words by secularists to enjoin our narrative just because someone uses it as a point of attack on Brother Lee? Where is our line in the sand on that?

This is what I mean Brother Ohio. Ephraim is a cake un-turned. It is burnt on one side and uncooked on the other. Your argument about the NT vision was just that.... I asked you if you disagree with the description of the NT vision imparted to me and you immediately flip the cake over to the burnt side to burn it some more. I opened the door for you to agree or disagree with some or all of the NT vision I have received but the burnt side of the cake is preferable because heaven forbid if we find some points of agreement, some truth we can stand side by side on, lines we both agree to not cross... well, that would not fit the dominant narrative of this forum that if Witness Lee believed it must be bad for you and if you disagree with Witness Lee then any fallacious argument will do.

So, no, I am not equivocating, I am not being dishonest, and I am not delusional. those are all ad hominem attack tactics.

Drake
12-28-2017 09:19 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
This came up in another thread so posting here for further discussion as the more appropriate thread. I described in that note the vision imparted to me. What if anything about what I have written do folks disagree with?


“The vision is not about one man's viewpoint about himself, his understanding of the bible, or even a vision one might have received of the Ezekiel genre. The vision is not about any one servant , a viewpoint, or a doctrine about vision. It is not a movement or about a movement.

The vision we speak of is given by the Holy Spirit, is the heavenly vision of the New Testament, and it is an experience of the Holy Spirit imparting something of Himself into those He wills and those who are willing and able to receive it. It is a vision of the Body of Christ, building up that Body, the corporate Christ, and aligning our lives with His purpose to bring Him back and close this age. It is a vision of a Bride, a warrior Bride, those that love Him so, that will return with Him to overcome the forces of evil. It is a vision to give Him the ruling position in our lives as the stepping stone to His rule over the whole earth. In the simplest terms it is about cooperating with the Spirit on a daily basis both individually and corporately. No, brother, the vision is not about a man, a fallible man, or even a servant to be commended though not a flawless one. It is a spiritual experience not unlike what you experienced in becoming regenerated. And yet, once it lays hold of you and you lay hold of it then it will govern you and it matters not what others say or do about this vision...... it cannot be denied.

I am always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision not only for themselves but for those of us who have received it and regard it as a central part of our lives. Even more, I am humbled that the Lord should shed His mercy and to reveal to me the matter that is closest to His heart since I consider many in this forum would be much better proprietors should they possess it themselves......”

Grace to you,
Drake
Here you are equivocating.

You say "the vision is not about a man," yet immediately go on to say that you are "always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision."

No one on this form disparages the N.T. vision.

We only point out the failures of leaders at LSM who have damaged the children of God.

Sorry that you are not honest enough to distinguish these.
12-28-2017 09:13 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
If there is a Vision of Age then it must be related to the vision given to us in the Word of God, and most specifically the New Testament.
-
This came up in another thread so posting here for further discussion as the more appropriate thread. I described in that note the vision imparted to me. What if anything about what I have written do folks disagree with?


“The vision is not about one man's viewpoint about himself, his understanding of the bible, or even a vision one might have received of the Ezekiel genre. The vision is not about any one servant , a viewpoint, or a doctrine about vision. It is not a movement or about a movement.

The vision we speak of is given by the Holy Spirit, is the heavenly vision of the New Testament, and it is an experience of the Holy Spirit imparting something of Himself into those He wills and those who are willing and able to receive it. It is a vision of the Body of Christ, building up that Body, the corporate Christ, and aligning our lives with His purpose to bring Him back and close this age. It is a vision of a Bride, a warrior Bride, those that love Him so, that will return with Him to overcome the forces of evil. It is a vision to give Him the ruling position in our lives as the stepping stone to His rule over the whole earth. In the simplest terms it is about cooperating with the Spirit on a daily basis both individually and corporately. No, brother, the vision is not about a man, a fallible man, or even a servant to be commended though not a flawless one. It is a spiritual experience not unlike what you experienced in becoming regenerated. And yet, once it lays hold of you and you lay hold of it then it will govern you and it matters not what others say or do about this vision...... it cannot be denied.

I am always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision not only for themselves but for those of us who have received it and regard it as a central part of our lives. Even more, I am humbled that the Lord should shed His mercy and to reveal to me the matter that is closest to His heart since I consider many in this forum would be much better proprietors should they possess it themselves......”


Grace to you,
Drake
12-28-2017 07:37 AM
JJ
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

I’ve been reading the book, I’m linking here to learn more about Martin Luther:
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/mar...781101980019#/

The parallels between the Roman Catholic’s Religious system and its reaction to Luther’s genuine attempts to point out and seek changes to its unscriptural teachings and practices and LSM churches are remarkable!
11-23-2017 11:42 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
When it comes to strong biblical support the brothers at afaithfulword.org are found wanting. They are found wanting because the man who taught them these human constructs was found wanting himself.
-
No bro Untohim, he was found dead. And with Nee already gone, his death means the death of The Vision of the Age, The Ministry of the Age, and The Minister of the Age ... especially the Minister.

Those doctrines have now fallen down, like the house of cards that they were all along.

Some are slow to catch on. Let's pray for them.
11-22-2017 03:45 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
I think ZNP, and maybe some others, have made a good case that these three terms, Vision of the Age, Ministry of the Age and Minister of the Age are simply man-made constructs that are being misapplied to a mere human minister and to his personal vision and ministry.
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

The implication of having a doctrine that is simply a man made construct that is then used to set aside the Lord's word for oneness in the Body. It is with this tradition that the LRC sets aside the word of God.

The reason we are all one is because we all partake of one bread, but according to the LRC tradition that is not sufficient.
11-22-2017 12:21 PM
least
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Proverbs 29:18
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

Romans 10: 4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 5:46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Luke 1: 1-2
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

II Corinthians 4: 1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

II Corinthians 4: 5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

*****
After the discussions in this thread, I accept the findings below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

If there is a Vision of Age then it must be related to the vision given to us in the Word of God, and most specifically the New Testament. The Ministry of the Age is the New Testament Ministry, which does not belong to any one particular person per se. The apostle Paul clearly says "We have this ministry" (2 Cor 4:1). It is THIS ministry that Paul refers to that should be considered The Ministry of The Age. The Minister of the Age is none other then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Author and perfecter of our faith, our Great High Priest.
11-22-2017 09:12 AM
UntoHim
The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the Age

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
There is no minister of the age without its starting point the vision of the age. Not everyone in this forum agrees that there is such a thing as a vision or ministry of the age. And those that agree that there are such a things do not agree on what they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
The question that we have asked repeatedly is for a Biblical basis to say that there is "The Minister of The Age".

I think ZNP, and maybe some others, have made a good case that these three terms, Vision of the Age, Ministry of the Age and Minister of the Age are simply man-made constructs that are being misapplied to a mere human minister and to his personal vision and ministry.

If there is a Vision of Age then it must be related to the vision given to us in the Word of God, and most specifically the New Testament. The Ministry of the Age is the New Testament Ministry, which does not belong to any one particular person per se. The apostle Paul clearly says "We have this ministry" (2 Cor 4:1). It is THIS ministry that Paul refers to that should be considered The Ministry of The Age. The Minister of the Age is none other then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Author and perfecter of our faith, our Great High Priest.

All this being said, I think it is incumbent upon the followers to Witness Lee to show how the human constructs concerning a man and his personal vision and ministry should be put on an equal plane with the descriptions I have given above. The authors of the website article have provided a truckload of quotes of Nee and Lee as their main support for these human constructs. Very convenient. Very self-referential. Very unscholarly. When it comes to strong biblical support the brothers at afaithfulword.org are found wanting. They are found wanting because the man who taught them these human constructs was found wanting himself.

-
11-22-2017 08:14 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Bible Record of MOTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
There is no minister of the age without its starting point the vision of the age. Not everyone in this forum agrees that there is such a thing as a vision or ministry of the age. And those that agree that there are such a things do not agree on what they are. For instance if someone has already dismissed that in Noah’s age he was following a vision or what the vision was then it is pointless to describe Noah as a minister of the age. Under those conditions we would all be asking ....Noah was a minister according to what?
The Bible says that "without a vision the people perish". No one on this forum has disputed that. The NT says that "we have received this ministry". No one on this forum disputes that there is a NT ministry. No one disputes that there are many ministers, servants, slaves of the Lord.

The question that we have asked repeatedly is for a Biblical basis to say that there is "The Minister of The Age".

What is the Biblical basis to divide the NT Age of grace into a bunch of mini ages? It is one way to interpret the 7 churches of Asia, so perhaps you could infer 7 ages. The problem with that is that WL's teaching is that the last 4 churches all occur simultaneously. So then the last 2,000 years could be broken into 4 ages.

So then what we are asking for in this thread is a scriptural reference for "The Minister of the Age".

For example, I think it is fair to say that Moses was "The Minister of the Age". In that age they were releasing the truth concerning the law. However, it is also explicitly clear from Moses himself that he was a type of Christ. In the NT it is explicitly clear that Moses is nothing compared to Christ and that we are to hear Jesus, not Moses.

Likewise you can claim that Elijah was a lead prophet in the age of the prophets. The vision in that age was to establish righteousness in the Kingdom. Once again it is explicitly clear that compared to Jesus Christ Elijah is nothing and we should listen to Jesus, the beloved Son.
11-22-2017 07:20 AM
aron
Re: The Bible Record of MOTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Working definition of MOTA -- "The minister of the age is the person God raises up as the channel through whom the vision of the age is released and who takes the lead in carrying out the ministry of the age."
Jesus was the one singular Christ. There cannot be, by definition, any more than one. Jesus was, is, and remains evermore the Christ of God, the Lord of lords and King of kings.

There's one Messiah, one singular Son of David, one "Holy One of Israel" (Mark 1:24; cf Isa 43:3). God has revealed this to us all, by raising His Son Jesus from the dead. The record is only too plain, and clear.

Any speculation about who's #2, while on this earth in the flesh of sin, is most deluded. Better to take the least place. Otherwise you risk being sent down in shame. ~Luke 14:8-11

I know that such MOTA speculations jive well with Chinese cultural expectations of group leadership and cohesion, but it has no place in the NT record. Casting back for OT scenes of Moses and Noah are vain. Jesus is the new Moses (Acts 3:22; 7:27); Jesus is the true Noah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
For instance if someone has already dismissed that in Noah’s age he was following a vision or what the vision was then it is pointless to describe Noah as a minister of the age.
Noah was pointing to Jesus. Peter was pointing to Jesus. Inasmuch as I see others pointing to Jesus, I align. "As I imitate Christ, imitate me"; the implied corollary is that as one doesn't imitate Christ, then I've no burden to imitate them (1 Cor 11:1).
11-22-2017 07:13 AM
Drake
Re: The Bible Record of MOTA

ZNP>”If possible I hope we can stay away from Vision of the Age and Ministry of the Age since I think we can all agree there is a vision presented in the NT and there is a NT ministry. No one is questioning the basic fact of either of those two points. This thread is not the place to debate whether WL was or was not the MOTA, or if he had the "Vision of the Age" or even the "Ministry of the Age". This thread is simply the place to lay out the Biblical support and warnings about any and all "Minister's of the Age".

There is no minister of the age without its starting point the vision of the age. Not everyone in this forum agrees that there is such a thing as a vision or ministry of the age. And those that agree that there are such a things do not agree on what they are. For instance if someone has already dismissed that in Noah’s age he was following a vision or what the vision was then it is pointless to describe Noah as a minister of the age. Under those conditions we would all be asking ....Noah was a minister according to what?

Drake
11-22-2017 06:16 AM
ZNPaaneah
The Bible Record of MOTA

Working definition of MOTA -- "The minister of the age is the person God raises up as the channel through whom the vision of the age is released and who takes the lead in carrying out the ministry of the age."

As this relates to Witness Lee and Watchman Nee LSM states:

“Through the labor of our senior brothers, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, we have received a spiritual inheritance of all of the crucial revelations in the Bible that have been opened to the Lord's seekers in the last twenty centuries. But that is not all. Brother Nee and Brother Lee stood on the shoulders of those who had gone before to see more.”

Least asked for “the Bible record of MOTA” [please note we use the Acronym MOTA in this thread to refer to “The Minister of the Age” as defined by LSM.

I feel there are many relevant verses to this doctrine and think it is a reasonable request. Therefore I thought this thread could be started. Please — any post that does not relate to the goal of presenting the Bible record of MOTA will be off topic.

I realize that this definition ignores certain actions and events that took place under the guise of MOTA. Therefore Bible verses concerning those events are relevant as well since history has shown us that the way to life is a narrow way and few there be that find it.
11-21-2017 01:06 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
All that is factual.

It is a matter of the work. I love and respect Brother Titus and he has helped me personally and some of the things he ministered decades ago have stuck with me all these years.

Yet, there was something going on there that was not in coordination and fellowship as a co-worker with other co-workers. That never works out and it didn't then either. In the NT the work needed a lot of fellowship and oftentimes it just did not work out as the accounts of contention in the work clearly demonstrate. Titus was not opposed to Brother Lee, nor with the role of Brother Lee's ministry, rather..... there was a disagreement between Titus and the other brothers regarding the work and frankly a schism was festering that could have damaged all the churches. It had to be addressed and many attempts were made to do just that.

Drake
Where did Apostle Paul ever demand that the other Twelve coordinate with him?

When did Apostle Paul demand that the other Twelve fellowship with him or be quarantined?

In what way did Apostle Paul ever hinder the Twelve from writing their own epistles?

Your vague references to other instances in the N.T. have no basis whatsoever for what LSM has done over the years. Contrary to the views of every LCer, the way LSM so easily deceives its adherents really proves how little they actually know the scriptures.

Oh sure, they may know Lee's doctrines, but they don't know the Bible.
11-21-2017 12:20 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Bro awareness,

Brother Née did a really thorough explanation of that... I try to find the link...

Drake
Awareness,

Here you go.

Go to lsm.org and in the table on the left click on "Online Publications"

Then in the search string paste in this phrase:

Watchman Nee in Shanghai in January 1934, during the third Overcomer Conference.

The second hit is "What Are We?".... Brother Nee provides a good summary of highlights of leaders that Lord raised up. A more comprehensive list is likely found in the pages of Broadbent's "Pilgrim Church" or Miller's Church History.

Drake
11-21-2017 11:29 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1

ZNP,

This conversation is getting wrapped around the axle.

For clarification ... when I used the word "imagination" what was the context and what was I referring to?

Thanks
Drake
11-21-2017 10:51 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

ZNP>”You did not give any details, nor did you point to a specific post....... However, this response of yours popped up after I referenced the quarantine letter, which was the context of your response. Unless it was a non sequitur, in which case how is anyone to know what you are talking about?”

The specific post was your post plainly quoted in my post #490.

Drake
Post #490 -- the content does not reference any offense, on the contrary I say that there is no offense. When I say you did not give any details I am referring to the offenses you claim I have and that you can see in the content of my posts.

You reference the frequency -- how can a single post be a reference? Also, you are posting at a higher frequency than I am. What does this say about your motives?

You say I cite decades old sins -- this post did not cite any sins.

This is why I say you did not give any details or refer to any post that I can understand what you are talking about.
11-21-2017 10:26 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1

ZNP>”You did not give any details, nor did you point to a specific post....... However, this response of yours popped up after I referenced the quarantine letter, which was the context of your response. Unless it was a non sequitur, in which case how is anyone to know what you are talking about?”

The specific post was your post plainly quoted in my post #490.

Drake
11-21-2017 08:52 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The hypocrisy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-2>”It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.”

ZNP,

That is not what I said and this is a good example of how you change what I said to fit a narrative of your own creation.

First, my comments about “imagination” were not about the letter .... what was I referring to when I made those comments ZNP?
You did not give any details, nor did you point to a specific post. You mentioned the "frequency" which doesn't make sense since I have virtually stopped posting on this side of the forum except for this particular thread. You mentioned the content, again does not make sense since you can see in none of my posts do I even refer to anything that was a personal offense.

However, this response of yours popped up after I referenced the quarantine letter, which was the context of your response. Unless it was a non sequitur, in which case how is anyone to know what you are talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Second, I never objected to anyone responding, asking questions, or putting forth of a defense of the letter..... exactly what was my objection?
Don't know, why don't you clear that up for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Third, you quoted me wrong and you quoted me out of text... we were not discussing if it were a response from the Lord. Quote me correctly and what was the context?

You are a person that demands righteousness from others.... then how about accurately representing what I stated.

Thanks,
Drake
I think it is clear that I did not understand your post.

This is the post in question:

"Sorry brother. According to your posts, their content and frequency, and the continual citing of decades old offenses.... you have not moved on, you have not forgiven those that offended you, and your approach of besmirching others for their failures, sins, and shortcomings of others is not "contending for the faith" by any stretch of the imagination.

And if you have examined yourself and found yourself to be without sins, failures, or shortcomings on what basis do you flip the Apostle's charge to examining others day in and day out? "


1. Content of my posts does not in any way refer to past offenses that I have. Therefore your conclusion does not makes sense.

2. Frequency -- I have virtually stopped posting on this side of the forum because I have moved on. This thread is different, it relates to contending for the faith. Again, this does not make any sense with your conclusion.

3. Yes, I have agreed that I do cite decades old offenses. Imagine the hypocrisy in complaining about this.
A. Letters requesting a meeting on this were ignored, including Fed Ex and registered mail.
B. phone calls were ignored.
C. When I do meet with Ed privately it is deemed inappropriate -- and they say "he doesn't want to deal with this now". So the plan is to ignore this long enough and then claim "that is decades old". The fact remains, it has not been dealt with.
D. Many complaints about Titus were also decades old. Pure hypocrisy.


I have already given the scriptural basis to examine others. Teachers are held to a higher standard. Jesus, set an example for us, and in that example he publicly castigated the Pharisees for similar sins.

Matthew 18 says if you are offended go privately to the the party (for 20 years several saints did this -- letters, phone calls, et.). If they refuse to hear take two or three with you -- I learned of this through the forum and so I am one of the "two or three" that approached Ed. If they still refuse to hear you (which they did and I document) tell it to the church.

So you have the authority to "tell it to the church" about Titus, and that is contending for the Faith, but if I "tell it to the church" it is beyond imagination that this is contending for the faith. The hypocrisy.
11-21-2017 08:16 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-2>”It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.”

ZNP,

That is not what I said and this is a good example of how you change what I said to fit a narrative of your own creation.

First, my comments about “imagination” were not about the letter .... what was I referring to when I made those comments ZNP?

Second, I never objected to anyone responding, asking questions, or putting forth of a defense of the letter..... exactly what was my objection?

Third, you quoted me wrong and you quoted me out of text... we were not discussing if it were a response from the Lord. Quote me correctly and what was the context?

You are a person that demands righteousness from others.... then how about accurately representing what I stated.

Thanks,
Drake
Always accusing others of what you regularly do. Just sayin' ...
11-21-2017 08:06 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
3 Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.

It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.

They accuse me of having an agenda based on "The content, frequency and citing of decades old offenses". Perhaps they should look at the letter they wrote concerning the quarantine of Titus.
During the quarantine, one day in the mail I anonymously received LSM's 28 book "Attack Pack" on Titus Chu. Pretty much the entire contents of afaithfulword dotcom. And LSM does not meddle in the "content, frequency and citing of decades old offenses?" Huh?

Here is the definition of hypocrisy:
If LSM does it, it is right.
If anyone else does it, it is wrong.
11-21-2017 07:29 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-2>”It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.”

ZNP,

That is not what I said and this is a good example of how you change what I said to fit a narrative of your own creation.

First, my comments about “imagination” were not about the letter .... what was I referring to when I made those comments ZNP?

Second, I never objected to anyone responding, asking questions, or putting forth of a defense of the letter..... exactly what was my objection?

Third, you quoted me wrong and you quoted me out of text... we were not discussing if it were a response from the Lord. Quote me correctly and what was the context?

You are a person that demands righteousness from others.... then how about accurately representing what I stated.

Thanks,
Drake
11-21-2017 06:47 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

The scribes were doctors of the law, who read and expounded the Scripture to the people. They were possessed of the key of knowledge, and occupied the seat of Moses. The Pharisees were a kind of separatists among the Jews, as their name indeed denotes. (http://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/wil...harisees_2.htm)

He [Jesus] points out to the people the crimes with which they were chargeable, and the hypocrisy of their conduct. It is worthy of notice that He does not content Himself with speaking to the guilty parties alone. He unveils their character before the face of the world. They were deceiving the people by their pretences, and therefore the people must he warned against them. The same thing is true of all pretenders in religion. Truth and justice, and love for the souls of men, alike demand that such pretences should be made manifest. (http://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/wil...harisees_2.htm)

(Luke 11:52): "Woe unto you lawyers, for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye enter not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." The first thing they do is take away the key of knowledge. So when you make many of these claims concerning the sins of these doctrines they ask for facts, evidence. If you provide it then they claim you have an agenda. Anyone in the LRC knew that you were not to talk about anything, to do so was indicative of a “poisoned mind”. This is how they take away the key of knowledge. This is why the internet is so important and this forum is important.

The answer to the question of MOTA is to be found in the fact, not that they withheld the word of God, but that they made the commandment of God of none effect by their tradition. This doctrine denies the fact that God is the only teacher and director of His Church. They added to His word their own instructions. They made the redemption of Christ of none effect.
11-21-2017 05:49 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Bible readers for centuries have been citing David's sins.

Better to be cited in this age than the next.

Should not we also learn from all the failures of Witness Lee and his sons?
3 Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.

It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.

They accuse me of having an agenda based on "The content, frequency and citing of decades old offenses". Perhaps they should look at the letter they wrote concerning the quarantine of Titus.
11-20-2017 08:24 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Why is it that when you take the stand you do you are "being faithful to the vision the Lord has given you"?

Yet when others "are faithful to the vision the Lord has given them" you set yourself up to judge them that they aren't?

I will stand before the Lord. My stand will be on the Lord's blood. I am not examining others, I am examining the teachings, the doctrines, the damnable heresies.

Yes, it is true I continually cite sins that are decades old, but that is because they are decades old and still have not been dealt with.
Bible readers for centuries have been citing David's sins.

Better to be cited in this age than the next.

Should not we also learn from all the failures of Witness Lee and his sons?
11-20-2017 08:20 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Quarantine is not excommunication.... though it probably feels like it on the quarantined end.

Drake
That's right. It's worse than excommunication.

It's more like a Mafia hit job -- whack the competition, anyone who stops paying "protection" money, i.e. buying books and sending young people to FTTA for programming.
11-20-2017 05:16 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Quarantine is not excommunication.... though it probably feels like it on the quarantined end.
Quarantine? Bahahahaha. Like those churches can't go on with the Lord without LSM. Bahahahaha ... how utterly absurd ... and incompatible with the ground of oneness.
11-20-2017 04:35 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
How is it a basis for excommunication that you are not seeking to "be faithful to the entire ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee"?
Quarantine is not excommunication.... though it probably feels like it on the quarantined end.

Drake
11-20-2017 04:16 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP,

Sorry brother. According to your posts, their content and frequency, and the continual citing of decades old offenses.... you have not moved on, you have not forgiven those that offended you, and your approach of besmirching others for their failures, sins, and shortcomings of others is not "contending for the faith" by any stretch of the imagination.

And if you have examined yourself and found yourself to be without sins, failures, or shortcomings on what basis do you flip the Apostle's charge to examining others day in and day out?

Drake
Why is it that when you take the stand you do you are "being faithful to the vision the Lord has given you"?

Yet when others "are faithful to the vision the Lord has given them" you set yourself up to judge them that they aren't?

I will stand before the Lord. My stand will be on the Lord's blood. I am not examining others, I am examining the teachings, the doctrines, the damnable heresies.

Yes, it is true I continually cite sins that are decades old, but that is because they are decades old and still have not been dealt with.
11-20-2017 03:49 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
All that is factual.
If Titus was "condemned" for "promoting his own publication" then why shouldn't we condemn LSM for promoting their own publication?
11-20-2017 03:47 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
All that is factual.
If Titus was excommunicated for "slandering LSM" doesn't that prove they are exercising authority over the churches? So then how can claiming that LSM exercises authority over the churches be slander?
11-20-2017 03:44 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
All that is factual.
How is challenging and rejecting the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee a basis for excommunication?
11-20-2017 03:44 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP,

Then why did that elder sign?

418 automatons and one conscientious objecting elder who was forced to hold a pen in his hand while the other 418 stared him down?

C'mon...
Always citing extremes to make your case.

How many at the ITERO could endure the slander, libel, and public shaming endured by John Ingalls et. al. in the '80s and Titus Chu et.al. in the '00s?

Dear Drake, W. Nee taught that the first step in man's salvation was honesty, but all I ever see from you is denials.

With a trail of victims a half century long, when will you ever admit?
11-20-2017 03:43 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
All that is factual.
How is it a basis for excommunication that you are not seeking to "be faithful to the entire ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee"?
11-20-2017 03:40 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The table is a serious thing that could lead to sickness and it is not Brother Ray who first said it. What does Paul say about it?

Still brother, if you will not receive Evangelical's lengthy investment of time and research then you will not receive mine either. So I recommend that you pick this back up with Evangelical if he is still willing.

Drake
I did pick it up with him, you obviously have not been paying attention.
11-20-2017 03:40 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP,

Then why did that elder sign?

418 automatons and one conscientious objecting elder who was forced to hold a pen in his hand while the other 418 stared him down?

C'mon...
Reasonable question. Same could be said of all these women who are claiming #metoo.
11-20-2017 03:39 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP,

Sorry brother. According to your posts, their content and frequency, and the continual citing of decades old offenses.... you have not moved on, you have not forgiven those that offended you, and your approach of besmirching others for their failures, sins, and shortcomings of others is not "contending for the faith" by any stretch of the imagination.

And if you have examined yourself and found yourself to be without sins, failures, or shortcomings on what basis do you flip the Apostle's charge to examining others day in and day out?

Drake
All of my posts concerning past offenses do not refer to any offenses against me. You either have not paid attention or do not realize. I had no personal offense from PL, did not know Titus Chu other than meeting him once, did not invest in Daystar.

However, according to Matt 18 it is the responsibility of all of us to hear the offenses others have and to stand with them if your conscience so dictates.

Since I served in LSM for many years I felt a special responsibility to respond to the things said.

Again, have no conscience of any offense with anyone in the LRC.

What I am conscience of is the warnings given by Paul, Peter and James concerning false prophets and the charge given by Jude to contend for the faith.
11-20-2017 03:12 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
That was my opinion as well until I read the Blended's explanation for the quarantine of Titus Chu.

Let's look at what they said were some of the reasons for the quarantine.

1. The “blended brothers” allege that Titus Chu & his co-workers are “separating themselves from the vast majority of the churches, saints, leading brothers, and coworkers throughout the whole earth who are seeking to be faithful to the entire ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, which is the New Testament Ministry”.

2. Point 2a –Titus & some of his co-workers are allegedly “challenging and rejecting the teaching of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee”.

3. Titus & co. are accused of “slandering Living Stream Ministry...declaring that Living Stream Ministry is a headquarters exercising control over the churches throughout the earth.” [Point 2b]

7. The “Warning Letter” says Titus opposes the practice of “One Publication,” which is not an item of the common faith, but a matter of “one trumpet sound of the ministry.” [Point 2f]

8. Titus & his co-workers are condemned for “promoting their own publications” [Point 2g.]
All that is factual.

It is a matter of the work. I love and respect Brother Titus and he has helped me personally and some of the things he ministered decades ago have stuck with me all these years.

Yet, there was something going on there that was not in coordination and fellowship as a co-worker with other co-workers. That never works out and it didn't then either. In the NT the work needed a lot of fellowship and oftentimes it just did not work out as the accounts of contention in the work clearly demonstrate. Titus was not opposed to Brother Lee, nor with the role of Brother Lee's ministry, rather..... there was a disagreement between Titus and the other brothers regarding the work and frankly a schism was festering that could have damaged all the churches. It had to be addressed and many attempts were made to do just that.

Drake
11-20-2017 02:45 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I heard this in Houston. Ray Graver taught us that if we took the Lord's table outside of the Local Church you could get sick and die. He actually gave examples of people who did get sick.

When I talked to others they also heard this teaching, so much so that I felt my experience was commonplace.

Witness Lee has taught in great detail about the sins of every other group including free groups and that their table is not a legitimate one.

Yes we have heard Evangelical claim that you have to choose where to meet, and that some places would be better than others for the table. But that isn't the question. In the LRC we were regularly warned against taking the table in other churches, they realize that we might visit family, go to funerals, weddings, etc. That was obviously necessary, so long as we don't take the table.

That is what I am asking, why is that condemned?
The table is a serious thing that could lead to sickness and it is not Brother Ray who first said it. What does Paul say about it?

Still brother, if you will not receive Evangelical's lengthy investment of time and research then you will not receive mine either. So I recommend that you pick this back up with Evangelical if he is still willing.

Drake
11-20-2017 02:40 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
One elder that was there testified that he was.

There are numerous testimonies from elders about how they were driven out due to their "not being one with the ministry". For example, consider the "quarantine of Titus Chu". The letter written by the Blendeds over this is a powerful witness that elders were required to be loyal to Witness Lee or else they would be removed.
ZNP,

Then why did that elder sign?

418 automatons and one conscientious objecting elder who was forced to hold a pen in his hand while the other 418 stared him down?

C'mon...
11-20-2017 02:33 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I have no offenses with anyone in the LRC.

Why did I move on? Because I examined myself.

However, this discussion is not about offenses, it is about "contending for the faith" which we have been charged to do.
ZNP,

Sorry brother. According to your posts, their content and frequency, and the continual citing of decades old offenses.... you have not moved on, you have not forgiven those that offended you, and your approach of besmirching others for their failures, sins, and shortcomings of others is not "contending for the faith" by any stretch of the imagination.

And if you have examined yourself and found yourself to be without sins, failures, or shortcomings on what basis do you flip the Apostle's charge to examining others day in and day out?

Drake
11-20-2017 02:15 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
1. Is the doctrine of MOTA lifting up another name besides Jesus?

NO.

2. Is the MOTA a mediator of the covenant in addition to Jesus?


NO.
That was my opinion as well until I read the Blended's explanation for the quarantine of Titus Chu.

Let's look at what they said were some of the reasons for the quarantine.

1. The “blended brothers” allege that Titus Chu & his co-workers are “separating themselves from the vast majority of the churches, saints, leading brothers, and coworkers throughout the whole earth who are seeking to be faithful to the entire ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, which is the New Testament Ministry”.

2. Point 2a –Titus & some of his co-workers are allegedly “challenging and rejecting the teaching of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee”.

3. Titus & co. are accused of “slandering Living Stream Ministry...declaring that Living Stream Ministry is a headquarters exercising control over the churches throughout the earth.” [Point 2b]

7. The “Warning Letter” says Titus opposes the practice of “One Publication,” which is not an item of the common faith, but a matter of “one trumpet sound of the ministry.” [Point 2f]

8. Titus & his co-workers are condemned for “promoting their own publications” [Point 2g.]
11-20-2017 02:12 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
4. Why do they justify division from born again believers who have been redeemed by the Lord's blood?

A question of presumption... it assumes they justify division. Evangelical has answered this question thoroughly ad nauseam. It is not those that stand for unity that are the perpetrators of division.
I heard this in Houston. Ray Graver taught us that if we took the Lord's table outside of the Local Church you could get sick and die. He actually gave examples of people who did get sick.

When I talked to others they also heard this teaching, so much so that I felt my experience was commonplace.

Witness Lee has taught in great detail about the sins of every other group including free groups and that their table is not a legitimate one.

Yes we have heard Evangelical claim that you have to choose where to meet, and that some places would be better than others for the table. But that isn't the question. In the LRC we were regularly warned against taking the table in other churches, they realize that we might visit family, go to funerals, weddings, etc. That was obviously necessary, so long as we don't take the table.

That is what I am asking, why is that condemned?
11-20-2017 02:07 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
3. Why were the elder's of every church required to pledge loyalty to WL if Jesus is Lord?

A question of presumption... it assumes they were required.
One elder that was there testified that he was.

There are numerous testimonies from elders about how they were driven out due to their "not being one with the ministry". For example, consider the "quarantine of Titus Chu". The letter written by the Blendeds over this is a powerful witness that elders were required to be loyal to Witness Lee or else they would be removed.
11-20-2017 02:04 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
However, let's find some point of agreement here. Paul says we should examine ourselves. Therefore, why do you spend so much time examining others? How about you take the Apostle's charge seriously and the Lord's charge of forgiving offenses 70 X 7?

Drake
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
I am not conscience of any offense with anyone in the LRC.

Why did I move on? Because I examined myself.

However, this discussion is not about offenses, it is about "contending for the faith" which we have been charged to do.
11-20-2017 02:02 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
So are you going to answer the question? Or squiggle over semantics?

For the record, I don’t have an argument for which church Peter and Paul would attend. It is a ridiculous question, you asked it.
I already answered in post 455.
11-20-2017 01:57 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

ZNP,

Here you go.... still wont make a difference to you because the underlying issues you carry with you have not been resolved. These questions are just so you can go back to litigating with brothers in a public setting instead of following the Lord's charge of forgiving offenses 70 X 7.

1. Is the doctrine of MOTA lifting up another name besides Jesus?

NO.

2. Is the MOTA a mediator of the covenant in addition to Jesus?


NO.

3. Why were the elder's of every church required to pledge loyalty to WL if Jesus is Lord?

A question of presumption... it assumes they were required.


4. Why do they justify division from born again believers who have been redeemed by the Lord's blood?

A question of presumption... it assumes they justify division. Evangelical has answered this question thoroughly ad nauseam. It is not those that stand for unity that are the perpetrators of division.

5. Why do they mock this examination, saying it is a "rock fetch" exercise when Paul clearly charged us to examine ourselves?

I'll own that one gladly. It is a rock fetch because you are using questions as a means to an end. The end is you want to slander brothers in a public forum and the means are questions that cannot solve the underlying issues you still have with some of them.

However, let's find some point of agreement here. Paul says we should examine ourselves. Therefore, why do you spend so much time examining others? How about you take the Apostle's charge seriously and the Lord's charge of forgiving offenses 70 X 7?

Drake
11-20-2017 12:36 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

ZNP,

Its a useless exercise to try to answer questions like that because there is no answer that satisfies the underlying issue you have.

These are not useless questions because they are crucial. We see in the book of Acts Paul and other apostles preventing others from lifting their name up, or treating them as the mediator of the covenant, etc.

1. Is the doctrine of MOTA lifting up another name besides Jesus?

2. Is the MOTA a mediator of the covenant in addition to Jesus?



This is not a useless question. This is something that has to be addressed. If it was a mistake say so, but not saying this was a mistake allows it to be codified. Yes, I feel it is a mistake, but the fact that no one makes a defense of this only contributes to this conclusion. The claim that Witness Lee's words somehow change what he did does not justify it, rather it confirms he knew what he was doing was condemned by the Bible.

3. Why were the elder's of every church required to pledge loyalty to WL if Jesus is Lord?


This is not a useless question, you have answered this, but I feel your answer is unsatisfactory. You feel you are being faithful to the vision the Lord has given you yet you also feel that there are many believers who have been redeemed that have not been given this vision. So the question is focusing on why the LRC condemns other tables as being sinful.

4. Why do they justify division from born again believers who have been redeemed by the Lord's blood?

Paul said to examine ourselves when we take the table. I feel these questions are part of that process. We each hold to doctrines and opinions that could be something we need to let go of. This is part of the process of sanctification. It addresses the Lord's point about not stumbling the weaker brother (i.e. the one without your vision).

5. Why do they mock this examination, saying it is a "rock fetch" exercise when Paul clearly charged us to examine ourselves?
11-20-2017 11:24 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1

ZNP,

Its a useless exercise to try to answer questions like that because there is no answer that satisfies the underlying issue you have.

For example a question like one from Maxine Waters, or others like her, about Trump.... there is no answer that would satisfy her underlying need.... nothing can be said in response to her questions that would deter her from anything less than impeachment. Her mind is made up completely. So, any questions are just a means to restate the underlying issue and the question itself is immaterial.

To you the verdict is already in, judgement has been passed, and at this point you are just litigating the matter in the court of public opinion over and over. At some point you just have to accept the principle of 70 X 7, else you will go to your grave never having forgiven your brothers or anyone you feel that wronged you. In the principle of 70 X 7 who is right and who is wrong about the many offenses is not relevant.

Drake
11-20-2017 08:04 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP>"2. These seek out the lost sheep. This includes the warning not to stumble one of these little ones, better to tie a grinding stone to your neck and be tossed into the sea. (As it turns out a "rock fetch" exercise that Drake was calling our examination is simply trying to find these grinding stones at the bottom of the sea)."

No. A rock fetch is asking questions that presume guilt for which there is no answer that can satisfy the questioner because of outstanding offenses that have never been dealt with before God and man.

Drake
The definition on the urban dictionary is "a useless exercise". Worrying about these grinding stones instead of the least of the Lord's brothers who are being stumbled is, by definition, a useless exercise. Since it involves fetching stones from the bottom of the ocean, it is a "rock fetch" exercise by any and all definitions.
11-20-2017 07:27 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

ZNP>"2. These seek out the lost sheep. This includes the warning not to stumble one of these little ones, better to tie a grinding stone to your neck and be tossed into the sea. (As it turns out a "rock fetch" exercise that Drake was calling our examination is simply trying to find these grinding stones at the bottom of the sea)."

No. A rock fetch is asking questions that presume guilt for which there is no answer that can satisfy the questioner because of outstanding offenses that have never been dealt with before God and man.

Drake
11-20-2017 07:02 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Why is it ridiculous? Why would the apostles warn us of false brethren who sneak in to bring us into captivity if it were not true? We see the Judaizers in Acts, we see references to this by James, and Peter and Paul. In the book of Revelation we see the 7 churches, almost all with major deficiencies.

This is clearly the central issue to Evangelical and to many who are in the LRC. They came from "churches" that were deficient and they are seeking "the true church". If you want to have a conversation with them over this subject then you have to address their concern.
But ... can we ever have real "conversations" when Evangelical and Drake never address our concerns?
11-20-2017 06:53 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
So are you going to answer the question? Or squiggle over semantics?

For the record, I don’t have an argument for which church Peter and Paul would attend. It is a ridiculous question, you asked it.
Why is it ridiculous? Why would the apostles warn us of false brethren who sneak in to bring us into captivity if it were not true? We see the Judaizers in Acts, we see references to this by James, and Peter and Paul. In the book of Revelation we see the 7 churches, almost all with major deficiencies.

This is clearly the central issue to Evangelical and to many who are in the LRC. They came from "churches" that were deficient and they are seeking "the true church". If you want to have a conversation with them over this subject then you have to address their concern.
11-20-2017 06:41 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
A person quibbling over semantics indicates a person who doesn't have an argument. You haven't actually written anything yet in relation to the topic.
So are you going to answer the question? Or squiggle over semantics?

For the record, I don’t have an argument for which church Peter and Paul would attend. It is a ridiculous question, you asked it.
11-20-2017 06:03 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Agree but don't forget that they had no denominational affiliation.
That is fine. These three criteria are the promises given in Chapter 18 of Matthew, it answers the question "who is the greatest in the kingdom" and the way to identify them are also given in Chapter 18.

1. They have humbled themselves as children, a key criteria without which you cannot enter the kingdom. We can discuss what exactly this means, I have my ideas, but clearly "humbling yourself as a child" is contrary to claiming you are the "Minister of the Age". It would be similar to Paul saying "he was less than the least", Peter accepting the rebuke of Paul, and James repenting of his involvement with the Judaizers.

2. These seek out the lost sheep. This includes the warning not to stumble one of these little ones, better to tie a grinding stone to your neck and be tossed into the sea. (As it turns out a "rock fetch" exercise that Drake was calling our examination is simply trying to find these grinding stones at the bottom of the sea).

3. This process of seeking the lost sheep can include those who were offended by others. Your responsibility is to hear their offense, and if appropriate go with them to the offending party. For example, going to Ed Marks concerning those offended by his apology letter to PL. As predicted by the Lord and justified by Drake they "refused to hear me".

Only when you have these three does the Lord give the promises that you agree represent those special ones who eat with Him at the His table.
11-19-2017 10:27 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Based on the bible, why would Paul not answer, "yes, I am the minister of the age,
Because he wasn't. There were no "the minister of the age" back then. That's a Nee/Lee construct.

I see Peter bringing thousands to Christ. He was Jesus' chief disciple, his right hand man. His shadow would heal people.

So just that example is enough to debunk this minister of the age nonsense ... not even considering that, there were many more ministers back then ... including many women.
11-19-2017 09:33 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Wow. Just wow.

So the past tense “met” is the same as “would meet”? No wonder you’ve been suckered. I’m usually embarrassed for you after reading your posts, but this one may take the cake.
A person quibbling over semantics indicates a person who doesn't have an argument. You haven't actually written anything yet in relation to the topic.
11-19-2017 08:33 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
You are contradicting yourself. In your first sentence you said the question wasn't where they met. In your last sentence you asked "where would they meet".

Anyway I am sure that they would not meet or identify with any of the denominations existing today. They would be thinking of the church in Corinth, church Ephesus etc, not the "Roman Catholic church at blah blah" and "lutheran church at blah blah".
Wow. Just wow.

So the past tense “met” is the same as “would meet”? No wonder you’ve been suckered. I’m usually embarrassed for you after reading your posts, but this one may take the cake.
11-19-2017 08:12 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Then, which one would be the One Publication--Paul's publishing house, or LSM?
It would be Paul, and if Paul was alive today Witness Lee would not exist. Remember this is time travel.
11-19-2017 08:10 PM
least
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Then, which one would be the One Publication--Paul's publishing house, or LSM?
whala !
R.k. in tears besieging 'elders' of the blended order to pledge in writing absolute loyalty to LSM. It's the 'body feeling' you know.
Another written pledge from lc (all over the globe) of the blended order to quarantine 'this dissenting one' for not prophesying according to the hundreds of thousands of pages 'richness'.
-
11-19-2017 08:06 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I would say there are three things that distinguish the closest disciples of the Lord:

1. What things soever they shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever they shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2. If two of them agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of the Father who is in heaven.

3. The Lord Jesus is in the midst of them.

Would you agree with this?
Agree but don't forget that they had no denominational affiliation.
11-19-2017 08:02 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I think my point is that Jesus was "in the midst" of many people. Just because Jesus was in their midst does not make them the kind of people we should desire to be part of.

I think some people use the "Jesus hung out with sinners" argument to almost justify or imply that we should be sinners. But Jesus hung out with Pharisees and devils as well.

The Lord's table was something reserved for his closest disciples and not something offered just to any person.
I would say there are three things that distinguish the closest disciples of the Lord:

1. What things soever they shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever they shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2. If two of them agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of the Father who is in heaven.

3. The Lord Jesus is in the midst of them.

Would you agree with this?
11-19-2017 07:58 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Paul would have his own publishing house, surely.
Then, which would be the One Publication--Paul's publishing house, or LSM?
11-19-2017 07:55 PM
UntoHim
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Ohio and Evangelical...last couple of posts about the LBGT stuff deleted. Let's steer clear of that angle here on the main forum.
-
11-19-2017 07:17 PM
least
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Based on the bible, why would Paul not answer, "yes, I am the minister of the age, I don't identify with those who deny my gospel, and I'm not going to attend the Catholic church over there but find a church which is the church in < city name >".
Based on the bible, Paul "yes, I am the minister of the age, I don't identify with those who deny my gospel, ... "

Ha! who then is MOTA? WL? Paul?
If you invoke Paul from the dead to prove your point, you have to invoke WL too, so that they can debate. Otherwise WL might be in danger of 'denied Paul's gospel'.

If Paul is past, and LSM MOTA is the one NOW, why bring Paul back.

Evang, you are calling up numerous dead people. King Saul only called Samuel. And king Saul called Samuel because The Lord was not speaking to him anymore. Irk ... bro. Take good care of yourself ...
-
11-19-2017 07:01 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Based on the bible, why would Paul not answer, "yes, I am the minister of the age, I don't identify with those who deny my gospel, and I'm not going to attend the Catholic church over there but find a church which is the church in < city name >".
Then you don't know the Apostle. Read Acts again. Paul would go to the first church he saw, just like he would go to the synagogues. He would walk right into the Catholic Church and preach the Gospel.

But if he walked into the LC's, and started hearing "BruLee said, BruLee said," then he would walk out.
11-19-2017 06:56 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
We only have to look in the Bible for which Lord's Table's Peter and Paul met with:

2 Corinthians 13:1 “This is the third time I am coming to you. 2 Corinthians 10:2, 1 Corinthians 4:21.


Which church did you meet with last Sunday? The church in the city like Peter and Paul, or some denomination?

No where did Paul or Peter say "I am coming to the blah blah denomination"


If there were other "Lord's tables" happening at the time, perhaps a Judaistic one or a gnostic one, I am sure Peter and Paul would have not visited.
No where did Paul or Peter say "I'm coming to LSM and its LC's, you know the ones who only read Lee's books."
11-19-2017 06:34 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Evangelical, would Paul be a speaker in the seven feasts? Would he be an editor at LSM?
Paul would have his own publishing house, surely.
11-19-2017 06:28 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Based on the bible, why would Paul not answer, "yes, I am the minister of the age, I don't identify with those who deny my gospel, and I'm not going to attend the Catholic church over there but find a church which is the church in < city name >".
Evangelical, would Paul be a speaker in the seven feasts? Would he be an editor at LSM?
11-19-2017 06:22 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Bro Evangelical, I'm sorry to tell you this, but, you don't have a clue what Peter and Paul would do today.

Peter was charged with the circumcision, and Paul with the uncircumcised.

So Peter would likely work with the Jews, and Paul with the gentiles. I don't think they'd care a bit about the denominations, or the local church. And would probably bust out laughing at The Vision of the Age, Ministry of the Age, and Minister of the age.
Based on the bible, why would Paul not answer, "yes, I am the minister of the age, I don't identify with those who deny my gospel, and I'm not going to attend the Catholic church over there but find a church which is the church in < city name >".
11-19-2017 05:48 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
You are contradicting yourself. In your first sentence you said the question wasn't where they met. In your last sentence you asked "where would they meet".

Anyway I am sure that they would not meet or identify with any of the denominations existing today. They would be thinking of the church in Corinth, church Ephesus etc, not the "Roman Catholic church at blah blah" and "lutheran church at blah blah".
Bro Evangelical, I'm sorry to tell you this, but, you don't have a clue what Peter and Paul would do today.

Peter was charged with the circumcision, and Paul with the uncircumcised.

So Peter would likely work with the Jews, and Paul with the gentiles. I don't think they'd care a bit about the denominations, or the local church. And would probably bust out laughing at The Vision of the Age, Ministry of the Age, and Minister of the age.
11-19-2017 03:54 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
The question (remember...this was your question) wasn't where Peter and Paul met, but "With hundreds of different churches meeting every Sunday please tell us which one or ones are the Lords Table that Peter or Paul would identify with and why."

So where would they meet buddy boy - you seem to have all the answers (wink)
You are contradicting yourself. In your first sentence you said the question wasn't where they met. In your last sentence you asked "where would they meet".

Anyway I am sure that they would not meet or identify with any of the denominations existing today. They would be thinking of the church in Corinth, church Ephesus etc, not the "Roman Catholic church at blah blah" and "lutheran church at blah blah".
11-19-2017 02:59 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
We only have to look in the Bible for which Lord's Table's Peter and Paul met with:

2 Corinthians 13:1 “This is the third time I am coming to you. 2 Corinthians 10:2, 1 Corinthians 4:21.


Which church did you meet with last Sunday? The church in the city like Peter and Paul, or some denomination?

No where did Paul or Peter say "I am coming to the blah blah denomination"

If there were other "Lord's tables" happening at the time, perhaps a Judaistic one or a gnostic one, I am sure Peter and Paul would have not visited.
The question (remember...this was your question) wasn't where Peter and Paul met, but "With hundreds of different churches meeting every Sunday please tell us which one or ones are the Lords Table that Peter or Paul would identify with and why."

So where would they meet buddy boy - you seem to have all the answers (wink)
11-19-2017 02:05 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Of course not. Jesus was the right person. If Jesus is in your midst that is the only thing that matters. This concept opens the door to the flesh, racism, sexism, bias based on social standing, money, etc.
I think my point is that Jesus was "in the midst" of many people. Just because Jesus was in their midst does not make them the kind of people we should desire to be part of.

I think some people use the "Jesus hung out with sinners" argument to almost justify or imply that we should be sinners. But Jesus hung out with Pharisees and devils as well.

The Lord's table was something reserved for his closest disciples and not something offered just to any person.
11-19-2017 02:04 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I was in the Episcopal denomination as a child. When I was 12 or 13 I took the catechism class and when that was over we were permitted to take the Lord's table.

I was too young at the time and too green to know exactly what we were being taught. It seemed they were teaching us the basic truths of the Bible and I have no recollection of having to make any pledge to the Episcopal church. I do recall being tested on the creeds. So yes, I would agree with you that this might be a violation, but this may simply be something that they do to help 12/13 year olds make the transition from child to adult. What I don't know is what happens with adults. Do they question them or do they simply instruct them that if they have received Christ as their savior they are welcome to the table. I am no expert on how the various denominations are handling this.

However, it has been my experience that over the last 50 years that all the various groups I have met with understand that the Lord's table is open to all believers who have received Christ as their savior, regardless of where they meet.
One can even take the Lord's table in a LGBT church. Is that a Lord' table?

What about a Lord's table that offers communion to gay couples? I am sure there are some Episcopal ones that do that. Are they the Lord's table?
11-19-2017 02:00 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Classy.

Care to answer your own question there champ?

"please tell us which one or ones are the Lords Table that Peter or Paul would identify with and why."
We only have to look in the Bible for which Lord's Table's Peter and Paul met with:

2 Corinthians 13:1 “This is the third time I am coming to you. 2 Corinthians 10:2, 1 Corinthians 4:21.


Which church did you meet with last Sunday? The church in the city like Peter and Paul, or some denomination?

No where did Paul or Peter say "I am coming to the blah blah denomination"

If there were other "Lord's tables" happening at the time, perhaps a Judaistic one or a gnostic one, I am sure Peter and Paul would have not visited.
11-19-2017 11:35 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Even the Jewish leaders realize that these Galileans were not the "right people" because they were unlearned and unlettered. According to LSM's current standards, none of the original apostles could qualify for the FTTA.

During the Peter Training, Witness Lee even claimed he got an ulcer trying to understand Peter's epistles. Good reason for putting Greek classes on the FTTA qualifications list.

So ... what point have you proven?
"It's better to hang out with the disciples" instead of pharisees, etc.

Would Nicodemus be a pharisee or a disciple? Is Matthew a publican or a disciple? How about Saul of Tarsus?

It seems those in the LRC are the elite of the elite when it comes to discerning disciples from the riff faff.

Also, it makes you wonder, since "it is better" not to hang out with pharisees, publicans, tax collectors, etc. How did they hear the gospel? How did they get saved?

"How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good tidings" -- except to those in the LRC.
11-19-2017 08:00 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
You sound smart but you aren't so smart really because weren't Peter, James, John and the 12 disciples the "right people"? It seems to me that Jesus hung out with these 12 the most. So yes while Jesus hung out with sinners and even religious people (pharisees etc) I think it's better to be part of the disciples am I right? So my point is proven.
Even the Jewish leaders realize that these Galileans were not the "right people" because they were unlearned and unlettered. According to LSM's current standards, none of the original apostles could qualify for the FTTA.

During the Peter Training, Witness Lee even claimed he got an ulcer trying to understand Peter's epistles. Good reason for putting Greek classes on the FTTA qualifications list.

So ... what point have you proven?
11-19-2017 07:23 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
You sound smart but you aren't so smart really because...So my point is proven.
Classy.

Care to answer your own question there champ?

"please tell us which one or ones are the Lords Table that Peter or Paul would identify with and why."
11-19-2017 06:46 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Okay so we can rule out Roman Catholic, Orthodox and many denominations.

Glad we agree.
I was in the Episcopal denomination as a child. When I was 12 or 13 I took the catechism class and when that was over we were permitted to take the Lord's table.

I was too young at the time and too green to know exactly what we were being taught. It seemed they were teaching us the basic truths of the Bible and I have no recollection of having to make any pledge to the Episcopal church. I do recall being tested on the creeds. So yes, I would agree with you that this might be a violation, but this may simply be something that they do to help 12/13 year olds make the transition from child to adult. What I don't know is what happens with adults. Do they question them or do they simply instruct them that if they have received Christ as their savior they are welcome to the table. I am no expert on how the various denominations are handling this.

However, it has been my experience that over the last 50 years that all the various groups I have met with understand that the Lord's table is open to all believers who have received Christ as their savior, regardless of where they meet.
11-19-2017 06:39 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
You sound smart but you aren't so smart really because weren't Peter, James, John and the 12 disciples the "right people"? It seems to me that Jesus hung out with these 12 the most. So yes while Jesus hung out with sinners and even religious people (pharisees etc) I think it's better to be part of the disciples am I right? So my point is proven.
Of course not. Jesus was the right person. If Jesus is in your midst that is the only thing that matters. This concept opens the door to the flesh, racism, sexism, bias based on social standing, money, etc.
11-18-2017 10:16 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
If any group requires more than Baptism to receive a brother or sister at the Lord's table then yes, I agree.
Okay so we can rule out Roman Catholic, Orthodox and many denominations.

Glad we agree.
11-18-2017 10:14 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
What difference does it make? Do you suppose meeting with the "right" people with the "right" words is going to bring you closer to God? Jesus hung out with and ate freely with all kinds of sinners and was condemned for it by the religious people of his day. It seems to me you might have fallen into a similar trap as Jesus' detractors with the "local church" doctrine.
You sound smart but you aren't so smart really because weren't Peter, James, John and the 12 disciples the "right people"? It seems to me that Jesus hung out with these 12 the most. So yes while Jesus hung out with sinners and even religious people (pharisees etc) I think it's better to be part of the disciples am I right? So my point is proven.
11-18-2017 04:10 PM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Surely, Peter, Paul would recognize Witness Lee as the present and final MOTA. Maybe the Blended Brothers would even let them join their coworkers' meetings.
Now you're just being ironic.
11-18-2017 12:30 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Peter, and John too, are definitely OUT since they were unlearned and unlettered. (Acts 4.13) They both totally flunked the "Good Material" qualifying exams. In addition, Peter was the first Pope. Three strikes he is OUT. If he disagrees, there is a Whistler Resort holiday in his future.

Paul, however, was definitely "Good Material." He had a PHD from Princeton or Dallas Theological. He would get a handshake from Ron Kangas, and a front row seat with Benson at the Seven Feasts.
. . . rotflmao . . .
11-18-2017 12:14 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
The obvious answer (to you) would be that they would identify with the LSM churches? Or am I presupposing?

If this is true, how would Peter or Paul know about the church unless they were considered "good material"? What if Peter and Paul never went to undergrad?
Peter, and John too, are definitely OUT since they were unlearned and unlettered. (Acts 4.13) They both totally flunked the "Good Material" qualifying exams. In addition, Peter was the first Pope. Three strikes he is OUT. If he disagrees, there is a Whistler Resort holiday in his future.

Paul, however, was definitely "Good Material." He had a PHD from Princeton or Dallas Theological. He would get a handshake from Ron Kangas, and a front row seat with Benson at the Seven Feasts.
11-18-2017 11:56 AM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
What difference does it make? Do you suppose meeting with the "right" people with the "right" words is going to bring you closer to God? Jesus hung out with and ate freely with all kinds of sinners and was condemned for it by the religious people of his day. It seems to me you might have fallen into a similar trap as Jesus' detractors with the "local church" doctrine.
Surely, Peter, Paul would recognize Witness Lee as the present and final MOTA. Maybe the Blended Brothers would even let them join their coworkers' meetings.
11-18-2017 11:17 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Good point, this is completely the wrong attitude. Paul said to examine ourselves, not others.
Besides, all the Lord's Table's today are just symbolism. Cuz the original "Lord's Table" was a Lord's supper, where they ate, and drank wine. But some were getting there early and eating and drinking it all, leaving some hungry, some even to the point of starving to death.
11-18-2017 10:52 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
What difference does it make? Do you suppose meeting with the "right" people with the "right" words is going to bring you closer to God? Jesus hung out with and ate freely with all kinds of sinners and was condemned for it by the religious people of his day. It seems to me you might have fallen into a similar trap as Jesus' detractors with the "local church" doctrine.
Good point, this is completely the wrong attitude. Paul said to examine ourselves, not others.
11-18-2017 09:35 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
With hundreds of different churches meeting every Sunday please tell us which one or ones are the Lords Table that Peter or Paul would identify with and why.
The obvious answer (to you) would be that they would identify with the LSM churches? Or am I presupposing?

If this is true, how would Peter or Paul know about the church unless they were considered "good material"? What if Peter and Paul never went to undergrad?
11-18-2017 09:13 AM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
With hundreds of different churches meeting every Sunday please tell us which one or ones are the Lords Table that Peter or Paul would identify with and why.
What difference does it make? Do you suppose meeting with the "right" people with the "right" words is going to bring you closer to God? Jesus hung out with and ate freely with all kinds of sinners and was condemned for it by the religious people of his day. It seems to me you might have fallen into a similar trap as Jesus' detractors with the "local church" doctrine.
11-18-2017 07:15 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
With hundreds of different churches meeting every Sunday please tell us which one or ones are the Lords Table that Peter or Paul would identify with and why.
Here's my response from 2 Timothy 2.19 ...

Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who belong to Him," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must depart from unrighteousness."
11-18-2017 05:35 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Thanks ... you're a peach.
Why, I thought you’d never notice...

11-18-2017 05:04 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
With hundreds of different churches meeting every Sunday please tell us which one or ones are the Lords Table that Peter or Paul would identify with and why.
They would identify with every one in which Jesus is Lord. By that I mean that the only requirement to partake is being baptized into the name.

Likewise, even if you are baptized you still need to deal with sins, i.e. examine yourself, and that requires the blood of Jesus.

They would have a problem with any group that lifted up another name besides Jesus, that bowed the knee to some other authority other than Jesus. For example, if you required circumcision in addition to the Lord's saving work on the cross.

This is why we feel it is important to examine this doctrine.

1. Is the doctrine of MOTA lifting up another name besides Jesus?

2. Is the MOTA a mediator of the covenant in addition to Jesus?

3. Why were the elder's of every church required to pledge loyalty to WL if Jesus is Lord?

4. Why do they justify division from born again believers who have been redeemed by the Lord's blood?

5. Why do they mock this examination, saying it is a "rock fetch" exercise when Paul clearly charged us to examine ourselves?
11-18-2017 03:33 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Bro awareness,

Brother Née did a really thorough explanation of that... I try to find the link...

Drake
Thanks ... you're a peach.
11-18-2017 12:12 AM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

With hundreds of different churches meeting every Sunday please tell us which one or ones are the Lords Table that Peter or Paul would identify with and why.
11-17-2017 09:14 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I don't know bro Drake, but surely you can you provide a list of the MOTA's from at least Luther.
Bro awareness,

Brother Née did a really thorough explanation of that... I try to find the link...

Drake
11-17-2017 07:13 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Unanswered questions -- contending for the faith

3Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints.

This is not a useless exercise as Drake claims, rather his claim confirms that there will be mockers in the last days.

4For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Yes, that is also my conclusion as well.

9But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Amen, the Lord rebuke them.

11Woe unto them! for they went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

Woe to them for they have gone in the way of lawsuits. The error in Daystar, LSM, PL, etc was fundamentally the error of becoming a prophet for hire, like Balaam. The "Ground of the church" doctrine and the claim of "Minister of the Age" is their "running riotously in this error". The apology letter to PL is the gainsaying of Korah.

16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their lusts (and their mouth speaketh great swelling words), showing respect of persons for the sake of advantage.

Great swelling words like "Minister of the Age", "Vision of the Age", and "Ministry of the Age". Showing respect for the sake of advantage (i.e., pleasing Witness Lee for the sake of advantage).

20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22And on some have mercy, who are in doubt; 23and some save, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24Now unto him that is able to guard you from stumbling, and to set you before the presence of his glory without blemish in exceeding joy, 25to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen.
11-17-2017 06:28 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

Hi ZNP,

I will leave it for you and others to deal with those questions. Personally for me they look like rock fetch questions, questions of presumption, and they are superficial since there is no answer to the questions that would satisfy your disagreements with the Lords Recovery.

Others here really like questions like that so you should look to them to support your viewpoints and they will gladly.

Thanks
Drake
I don't know bro Drake, but surely you can you provide a list of the MOTA's from at least Luther.
11-17-2017 03:17 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

Hi ZNP,

I will leave it for you and others to deal with those questions. Personally for me they look like rock fetch questions, questions of presumption, and they are superficial since there is no answer to the questions that would satisfy your disagreements with the Lords Recovery.

Others here really like questions like that so you should look to them to support your viewpoints and they will gladly.

Thanks
Drake
How embarrassing.
11-17-2017 01:48 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1

Hi ZNP,

I will leave it for you and others to deal with those questions. Personally for me they look like rock fetch questions, questions of presumption, and they are superficial since there is no answer to the questions that would satisfy your disagreements with the Lords Recovery.

Others here really like questions like that so you should look to them to support your viewpoints and they will gladly.

Thanks
Drake
11-17-2017 05:42 AM
ZNPaaneah
Unanswered Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I asked awhile back for an official list of all the MOTA's down thru the ages.

You've revealed that, they don't have one.
We are on post #430, we have gone over the relevant quotes in LSM, we have listened to Evangelical and Drake defend this doctrine and yet we still have

Unanswered Questions

1. What is the official list of MOTA’s from Peter, to Paul to WN and WL?

2. If the MOTA gets the vision from God and gives it to the people, what is the difference between a MOTA and a mediator?

3. If all the elder’s pledge to follow the MOTA then what is the difference between the MOTA and the head of the church — Jesus?

4. If you require something other than the blood of Christ to be a church in good standing (i.e. the “ground of the church”) then isn’t this a denial of the Lord who redeemed us?

and

Unsatisfactory answers

1. MOTA and Ground of the Church are used as a justification for dividing themselves from other Christians, for judging the meetings of other Christians and for condemning the Lord's table held by other Christians. When asked that since this doctrine is a justification for division, it is something they cannot compromise on, then doesn't that mean it is an item of the faith?

The only answer to that question given is that "they are being faithful to what the Lord has told them". This is unsatisfactory because the Lord does not justify division except in an item of the faith. Likewise, if saying that "Witness Lee is the Minister of the Age" is an item of the faith you have equated confessing Witness Lee with confessing Jesus Christ -- a very clear heresy.

Unacceptable Answers

We have been told that this is one persons "least favorite" doctrine, another says it is not important and we are also told in effect it is a "take it or leave it" doctrine (if you haven't seen the matter of the ground of the church then logically you would also not see the MOTA).

None of these responses are acceptable seeing that this is the basis of division. They do not deny that there are other genuine Christians who received Christ by faith and were washed in His blood. To justify division from the Body, to condemn their meetings, simply not acceptable to say that this is not something very important, something that must be explained.
11-16-2017 11:35 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
To do this they need the smoke and mirrors of innumerable "ages" which they do not in any way illuminate other than to refer to Peter, Paul and Martin Luther. They rely on the laziness of the hearers that they are not willing to study church history so will simply take this on face value.
I asked awhile back for an official list of all the MOTA's down thru the ages.

You've revealed that, they don't have one.
11-16-2017 06:20 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

This thread has yet to address the key questions:

1. Is there a NT "vision of the age"? I would argue yes, it is displayed in the epistles. Most notably Ephesians and Colossians.

2. Is there are NT "ministry of the age"? Once again I would argue yes, most notably displayed in 2Corinthians, but key principles show up in 1 and 2nd Timothy, Titus, etc.

3. Is there a NT "minister of the age". Once again I would say that is strongly a yes, and the book of Hebrews clearly refers to Jesus as this minister of the age.


This is why I find this doctrine, like many of the LSM doctrines, to be so reprehensible. They take something that is truly Biblical, hence the ease with which they can find types in the OT to support their doctrine, truths that reveal Jesus Christ, and then they apply these to themselves (WN and WL).

To do this they need the smoke and mirrors of innumerable "ages" which they do not in any way illuminate other than to refer to Peter, Paul and Martin Luther. They rely on the laziness of the hearers that they are not willing to study church history so will simply take this on face value.

They also build a preposterous theory that the vision was released, lost and then the purpose of each age is to "recover" these lost truths. Once again the laziness of the hearers is critical. Since they never "heard" of this lost truth it is easy to assume no one else did either. But this doctrine of "recovery" is so central to their belief and practice that it is the unofficial name of the church / movement -- "The recovery".

Central to this "recovery" is the idea that the "Ground of the Church" doctrine is actually a NT truth.

Yes it is true that the temple, a major type in the OT, is a type of the Church.

Yes it is true that the ground of the temple was critical, just as the ground of the Church is critical.

Using those two facts they can spin and spin wonderful messages using OT typology because so far this is true.

But then what exactly is this ground that we are standing on and building on? What is the ground purchased for us with Jesus blood as a peace offering to God? What is this ground that reminds us of the Father being so absolute that He would give his only begotten son that we could live?

Well according to LSM it is the boundary of the city!?

This separates them from all other Christians see Jesus redemption redeeming sinful man to be built up into a spiritual house. The Lord's table reminds us of this sacrifice and we are charged to keep this sacrament.

In 1Cor 11 Paul says that "the woman needs a sign of authority on her head". The church needs a sign of authority on it's head. That sign needs to read "Jesus is Lord". However, the "Ground of the church" doctrine changes this (just as other sects and divisions). You have to take our doctrine in order to eat the Lord's table, hence "The Ground of the Church" is the sign of authority on the LRC table.

So then this doctrine denies the Lord who redeemed us.

What is most disturbing to me is that you can make a few subtle changes to the LSM "Ground of the Church" doctrine and it would be something that every Christian has been taught and would accept. Is that what WN and WL did? Make a few subtle changes to the doctrine of Jesus redemption so that they could make themselves "The Minister of the Age" with "The Vision of the Age" as "The Ministry of the Age"?
11-15-2017 08:58 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Therefore my interpretation that these elders were forced out and replaced with yes men can appear paranoid and conspiratorial.
Many in the GLA considered Ed Marks nothing more than a WL cheerleader and "yes man." Back in the 90's, one GLA brother counted in one training message how EM invoked the glorious name of Witness Lee 33 times.

I guess that's not at all excessive to ones like Drake and Evangelical.

ZNP thanks for adding that little historical detail about how EM was elevated to Anaheim elder for pleasing WL and expunging Philip Lee's excommunication.

Please note also that the profligate son of WL, the LSM equivalent of Harvey Weinstein, was the only one in LC history to have his excommunication officially overturned.
11-15-2017 08:43 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1

Okay brother. Then I pray that you will find the grace to experience His peace that passes all understanding between you and both God and man.

Drake
11-15-2017 08:16 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

ZNP,

I understand that you see those events differently than I do. You see them all part and parcel to a big conspiracy. I don’t. I evaluate each event on its own merits in their time and place. I do not say that mistakes were not made, they were, but not everything that happened can be attributed to a common initiative other than they happened in the Lords Recovery in that era.

Life goes on brother and so does the Lords Recovery. I only hope you find the peace you seek after all these years.

Drake
The standard for those bearing the testimony of Jesus is higher than it is for others. They are not to just avoid sin, they are avoid the appearance of sin.

If you do not properly deal with sin, then it has the appearance not just of that sin, but of an ulterior motive behind that sin -- hence a conspiracy.

For example you can view Ed Marks replacing John Ingalls as simply a matter of necessity after the Anaheim elders left. The fact that Ed knew Ray and Benson is nothing more than reasonable since they would choose someone they knew.

Therefore my interpretation that these elders were forced out and replaced with yes men can appear paranoid and conspiratorial. However, when you include the apology letter to PL that they all signed it no longer supports your view, but gives a lot of credence to my view. When Ed tells us 30 years later he "isn't ready to deal with this at this time" it further supports my view and gives no credence at all to your view. Finally, when Ed justifies this saying "it made Witness Lee happy" then I cannot see any other way to interpret these events than the way I have.

I have found peace and grace multiplied.

As you said earlier in a previous post, confessing Jesus can result in divisions. I feel my confession of Jesus caused me to be "walked out of the meeting hall". It has been a great source of grace and peace to me. I have since seen that all of the overcomers in Philadelphia were "forced out" at some point in time, hence the promise to them that they will no longer go out.

I am very thankful and full of joy that I do not need to be ridiculed and mocked the way EM, RG, BP, KR, RK, and others are for their actions. When you obey the Lord it may seem you are losing everything but on the other side you realize you have gained everything.
11-15-2017 02:38 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

ZNP,

I understand that you see those events differently than I do. You see them all part and parcel to a big conspiracy. I don’t. I evaluate each event on its own merits in their time and place. I do not say that mistakes were not made, they were, but not everything that happened can be attributed to a common initiative other than they happened in the Lords Recovery in that era.

Life goes on brother and so does the Lords Recovery. I only hope you find the peace you seek after all these years.

Drake
You would characterize the libelous and slanderous actions taken against John Ingalls et. al. as "mistakes were made?"

Drake, your integrity is on the line here.
11-15-2017 12:08 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1

ZNP,

I understand that you see those events differently than I do. You see them all part and parcel to a big conspiracy. I don’t. I evaluate each event on its own merits in their time and place. I do not say that mistakes were not made, they were, but not everything that happened can be attributed to a common initiative other than they happened in the Lords Recovery in that era.

Life goes on brother and so does the Lords Recovery. I only hope you find the peace you seek after all these years.

Drake
11-14-2017 04:12 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
In my opinion, I believe it was circumstances that drove the need. Brother Lee did not demand it but 419 elders felt the situation of disunity merited it. However, I believe his response was even more relevant. It’s clear where his heart was about not following a man.

The NEw Testament reveals more than Baptism and the Table. Still, if you don’t think so then be at peace and allow others follow what the Lord has shown them too.

Drake
His response includes receiving the pledge and publishing it. He could have rejected it, rebuked the elders for doing something with the appearance of evil (following a man, exalting a man, a ministry, etc). Had he done that then I would agree that the letter represented his heart.

But that is not what he did.

Ray Graver and Benson Phillips were crucial in forcing the 419 elders to sign this. They were put in charge of LSM by Witness Lee. They were also the ones that helped get rid of Max, Sal, and the "sister's rebellion" -- which was an elaborate cover up for PL. They took in a sister abused by PL. They closed their ears to JI about further abuses of PL. And WL replaced JI and other Anaheim elders who stood against PL with those who would act to "please Witness Lee" and Ray and Benson were put in charge of LSM.

Therefore when I look at this I see this letter by Witness Lee proves he knew what the will of the Lord is, but he neglected to do that will.
11-14-2017 04:06 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
If that is the case why do do special churches aka denominations exist. Baptism and Lord's table should be sufficient.
If any group requires more than Baptism to receive a brother or sister at the Lord's table then yes, I agree.
11-14-2017 03:42 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
UntoHim,

If my explanation was an accurate representation of what you and this forum believe then that is superb. Thanks for agreeing where we can agree.

However, in your second paragraph above you have fallen into the old dissenters and opposers habit of mischaracterization at best. Old habits die hard as they say but if you allow yourself to listen and consider others with differing points of view and experience you might find other areas we can agree on.

Thanks
Drake
Drake, if you are in favor of "considering others with differing points of view and experience," then why do you label others as "dissenters" and "opposers"? Why do you support "quarantines" against people who disagree with you on important maters of conscience?
11-14-2017 03:16 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
I'm glad to hear our friend Drake has finally admitted that the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Witness Lee have been accurately portrayed here on the forum.

Now the next step is for you, and more importantly the Local Church/LSM leaders, to be more up front with "new ones" and even the general Christian public about this "Minister of the Age", and how he is to be revered as the only person speaking as God's Oracle on Earth. Also that the "Vision" and "Ministry" (simply the bible commentary/teachings/opinions/theology of Witness Lee) must be accepted and imbibed without question. Finally, that the sect that Lee founded (AKA The Local Church(es) are the only legitimate representatives of the Body of Christ in any particular location that they have a meeting place.
-
UntoHim,

If my explanation was an accurate representation of what you and this forum believe then that is superb. Thanks for agreeing where we can agree.

However, in your second paragraph above you have fallen into the old dissenters and opposers habit of mischaracterization at best. Old habits die hard as they say but if you allow yourself to listen and consider others with differing points of view and experience you might find other areas we can agree on.

Thanks
Drake
11-14-2017 03:04 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
If this is the case then why do we need a special loyalty pledge to Witness Lee? If the vision is the same as the NT then Baptism and the Lord's table should be sufficient.
In my opinion, I believe it was circumstances that drove the need. Brother Lee did not demand it but 419 elders felt the situation of disunity merited it. However, I believe his response was even more relevant. It’s clear where his heart was about not following a man.

The NEw Testament reveals more than Baptism and the Table. Still, if you don’t think so then be at peace and allow others follow what the Lord has shown them too.

Drake
11-14-2017 02:48 PM
UntoHim
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

I'm glad to hear our friend Drake has finally admitted that the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Witness Lee have been accurately portrayed here on the forum.

Now the next step is for you, and more importantly the Local Church/LSM leaders, to be more up front with "new ones" and even the general Christian public about this "Minister of the Age", and how he is to be revered as the only person speaking as God's Oracle on Earth. Also that the "Vision" and "Ministry" (simply the bible commentary/teachings/opinions/theology of Witness Lee) must be accepted and imbibed without question. Finally, that the sect that Lee founded (AKA The Local Church(es) are the only legitimate representatives of the Body of Christ in any particular location that they have a meeting place.
-
11-14-2017 02:40 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
If this is the case then why do we need a special loyalty pledge to Witness Lee? If the vision is the same as the NT then Baptism and the Lord's table should be sufficient.
If that is the case why do do special churches aka denominations exist. Baptism and Lord's table should be sufficient.
11-14-2017 02:39 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Apparently our beloved brothers Drake and Evangelical have never read the article you linked here from LSM's own website. Ironically even the website anticipated brothers like Drake and Evangelical would attempt to play verbal footsie with these declarations or acronyms," and included the following:

They love to hide behind this "governing vision" caveat, but that is only window dressing for casual bystanders. Insiders, especially the leaders, know full well all the ramifications that accompany the "actual leadership." Pay attention to another quote from this informative article:

Can anyone really believe that in the 17th century all those throughout the globe who served God with a vision had to join themselves to a solitary nun in France. Unbelievable! Classical historical revisionism! A totally self-serving distortion of church history! It's no wonder that LC members are not permitted to read others' books.
What is it about the article that Drake and I have contradicted? I think we are reflected what the article says quite well.
11-14-2017 02:01 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
UntoHim>". The OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED POSITION of the OFFICIAL leadership in the Local Church Movement is that there is ONE, SINGLE Vision of the Age, there is ONE, SINGLE Ministry of the Age, there is ONE, SINGLE Minister of the Age. All roads lead to Mr. Witness Lee."

Why, I absolutely agree with this statement! (well,...without the CAPS). That is what I have been saying all along...... as follows:

The starting point is the vision of the age... the vision presented in the New Testament which becomes a governing vision and a vision to obey to whom it is revealed. The ministry of the age is for the vision of the age. Ministry follows vision as the means to fulfill the vision. Paul was captured by the vision of Christ and the Church and he became a minister of Spirit and life to build the Body of Christ. Paul in the 1st century was the lead in the ministry of the age. He was in his time and place the minister of the age and established local churches as testimonies and visible expressions of the one unique universal Body of Christ.

The vision Paul dedicated his life to is still the same New Testament vision today. The ministry of Spirit and life is still the same ministry of the age today. God works through men to carry out his ministry and for 2000 years and in any given place and time He works through vessels of mercy of His choosing. Church history shows this clearly. All those that God works through are imperfect vessels, nevertheless, He chooses whomsoever He wills. Luther was imperfect yet God worked through him to recover the Bible for the common man and the truth of justification by faith. Many servants to numerous to name here God worked through to restore something lost since the first century. They were not perfect men but nevertheless, they were useful and important in their place and time. In the past century the Lord worked through two brothers to lead and recover the practice of the church life to build the Body of Christ through the local churches to facilitate His return and establish His kingdom on earth. Like the men God used before them they too were imperfect. Nevertheless, God uses whomever He wills and these two servants from China were faithful to their special calling from the Lord. Through them many have seen the New Testament vision and the ministry that can fulfill that vision, And yes, if the Lord shows someone that the vision of the age is to build the Body of Christ, and if they believe that ministry of the age is to use local churches to accomplish the vision, then either logic, history, or revelation from God will also show that brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were the two vessels that He selected for that special calling. If someone disagrees with the vision or that there is one, if someone disagrees with our defintion of the ministry of the New Testament to accomplish the vision, or if someone disagrees that brothers Watchman Nee or Witness Lee were servants used by God for this purpose then that is between them and the Lord. If someone is without sin and perfect then before the Lord let them cast stones at God's imperfect servants. That also is a matter between them and the Lord that will be settled at His Bema.

Drake
If this is the case then why do we need a special loyalty pledge to Witness Lee? If the vision is the same as the NT then Baptism and the Lord's table should be sufficient.
11-14-2017 01:41 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
If someone disagrees with the vision or that there is one, if someone disagrees with our defintion of the ministry of the New Testament to accomplish the vision, or if someone disagrees that brothers Watchman Nee or Witness Lee were servants used by God for this purpose then that is between them and the Lord. If someone is without sin and perfect then before the Lord let them cast stones at God's imperfect servants. That also is a matter between them and the Lord that will be settled at His Bema.

Drake
Wait a minute! Witness Lee cast stones at the entire body of Christ from the first day I heard him speak, until the last time.

I know. I know. I forgot. "Even if he's wrong he's right."

To diehard followers like Drake, Witness Lee alone is without sin.
11-14-2017 01:25 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

UntoHim>". The OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED POSITION of the OFFICIAL leadership in the Local Church Movement is that there is ONE, SINGLE Vision of the Age, there is ONE, SINGLE Ministry of the Age, there is ONE, SINGLE Minister of the Age. All roads lead to Mr. Witness Lee."

Why, I absolutely agree with this statement! (well,...without the CAPS). That is what I have been saying all along...... as follows:

The starting point is the vision of the age... the vision presented in the New Testament which becomes a governing vision and a vision to obey to whom it is revealed. The ministry of the age is for the vision of the age. Ministry follows vision as the means to fulfill the vision. Paul was captured by the vision of Christ and the Church and he became a minister of Spirit and life to build the Body of Christ. Paul in the 1st century was the lead in the ministry of the age. He was in his time and place the minister of the age and established local churches as testimonies and visible expressions of the one unique universal Body of Christ.

The vision Paul dedicated his life to is still the same New Testament vision today. The ministry of Spirit and life is still the same ministry of the age today. God works through men to carry out his ministry and for 2000 years and in any given place and time He works through vessels of mercy of His choosing. Church history shows this clearly. All those that God works through are imperfect vessels, nevertheless, He chooses whomsoever He wills. Luther was imperfect yet God worked through him to recover the Bible for the common man and the truth of justification by faith. Many servants to numerous to name here God worked through to restore something lost since the first century. They were not perfect men but nevertheless, they were useful and important in their place and time. In the past century the Lord worked through two brothers to lead and recover the practice of the church life to build the Body of Christ through the local churches to facilitate His return and establish His kingdom on earth. Like the men God used before them they too were imperfect. Nevertheless, God uses whomever He wills and these two servants from China were faithful to their special calling from the Lord. Through them many have seen the New Testament vision and the ministry that can fulfill that vision, And yes, if the Lord shows someone that the vision of the age is to build the Body of Christ, and if they believe that ministry of the age is to use local churches to accomplish the vision, then either logic, history, or revelation from God will also show that brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were the two vessels that He selected for that special calling. If someone disagrees with the vision or that there is one, if someone disagrees with our defintion of the ministry of the New Testament to accomplish the vision, or if someone disagrees that brothers Watchman Nee or Witness Lee were servants used by God for this purpose then that is between them and the Lord. If someone is without sin and perfect then before the Lord let them cast stones at God's imperfect servants. That also is a matter between them and the Lord that will be settled at His Bema.

Drake
11-14-2017 11:08 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Here is Brother Lee's response the letter as mentioned. Highlights mine,

"The Brothers attending the February 1986
Elders’ Training

Dear Brothers:

Thank you for your letter dated February 21, 1986 with the list of signatures. I feel very sorry that I could not have time to acknowledge, with appreciation, what you have expressed in your letter and through your signatures until now.

Being one with the ministry is a crucial matter, and its effects are exceedingly serious. Its proper definition is not to follow any man, any doctrine or any movement, but is to be one with the Lord’s move today according to the Lord’s vision, without any intrinsic element of exalting any person or promoting any work. May the Lord be merciful and gracious to us, that this action would not be misunderstood or misapplied by anyone in a way that would give the enemy Satan ground for utilization, thus frustrating the Lord’s move today, but rather that this action could be properly used by the Lord to swallow up all the germs of discord which have been existing, even among us, for quite a time in the past. May the Lord remember your kind wishes for me and bless your labors in Him.

Your brother in Christ,
Witness Lee
Yes, we all on this thread agree with what he says here, we just don't agree with what he did.

This simply proves he knew the Lord's will. (The servant who knew his Lord's will and didn't do it will be beaten with many stripes -- Luke 12:47)

Imagine the hypocrisy, on one hand you thank the saints for pledging to follow Witness Lee's leading, on the other you admit that they are not to follow any man. You thank them for pledging their loyalty to the one who brought them God's economy and led them into its practice, on the other you say they are not to follow any doctrine or movement. On the one hand you thank them for acknowledging you as the "One trumpet" and "wise master builder". On the other you claim there is no element of exalting a man or promoting any work. People were forced to sign this but he has the nerve to say that "this action would not be misunderstood".

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people honoreth me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain do they worship me,
Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.
11-14-2017 11:06 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
UntoHim, thank you for pointing this out. Another thing very extreme about the "MOTA" concept--LC members not only believe that Witness Lee is/was the "minister of the age" but the final "minister of the age" and the "minister of the present age," even though he has been dead for 20 years. So, this is not just "POTUS;" it's worse. It is more akin to the North Korean concept of "Eternal President" (and don't forget, the "minister of the age" is also "the acting God").
Good point. As Evangelical and Drake have pointed out there are many human leaders and having leaders in the church is not that big a deal. However, instead of comparing WL and WN to Paul or Peter the better comparison is to Kim Jong Un and Kim Jong Il
11-14-2017 11:05 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Here is Brother Lee's response the letter as mentioned. Highlights mine,

"The Brothers attending the February 1986
Elders’ Training

Dear Brothers:

Thank you for your letter dated February 21, 1986 with the list of signatures. I feel very sorry that I could not have time to acknowledge, with appreciation, what you have expressed in your letter and through your signatures until now.

Being one with the ministry is a crucial matter, and its effects are exceedingly serious. Its proper definition is not to follow any man, any doctrine or any movement, but is to be one with the Lord’s move today according to the Lord’s vision, without any intrinsic element of exalting any person or promoting any work. May the Lord be merciful and gracious to us, that this action would not be misunderstood or misapplied by anyone in a way that would give the enemy Satan ground for utilization, thus frustrating the Lord’s move today, but rather that this action could be properly used by the Lord to swallow up all the germs of discord which have been existing, even among us, for quite a time in the past. May the Lord remember your kind wishes for me and bless your labors in Him.

Your brother in Christ,
Witness Lee
11-14-2017 11:00 AM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

Actually Witness Lee's "position" among his followers was something more powerful, more influential and more controlling than that of the POTUS, or President of the United States. The President and his power, influence and control is limited and balanced by two other equal branches of government - the legislative and judicial branches. (Interestingly enough, many Christian denominations have instituted such a leadership structure for the same reasons as the US government - to limit and balance the power, influence and control of the chief executive)

While I'm not suggesting in any way, shape or form that the Christian church formally, or even informally, institute such a governmental structure, I would point out the abject inherit dangers for a church group or movement that allows one single person to dictate "The Vision of the Age" through his personal ministry, "The Ministry of the Age", which is headed up solely by himself as "The Minister of the Age". This dynamic in the Local Church couldn't be any more or any less official than is described on the Local Church/LSM official website www.afaithfulword.org :
http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...yMinister.html

Whether or not there is the use of capitol letters is actually quite irrelevant. The OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED POSITION of the OFFICIAL leadership in the Local Church Movement is that there is ONE, SINGLE Vision of the Age, there is ONE, SINGLE Ministry of the Age, there is ONE, SINGLE Minister of the Age. All roads lead to Mr. Witness Lee. So anyone here is free to haggle, to massage or soften the firm, crystal clear declarations of the movement leaders, or to play verbal footsie with these declarations or acronyms - what they are not free to do is claim that the actual teachings, practices and history in the Local Church are being misrepresented here on this forum.

-
UntoHim, thank you for pointing this out. Another thing very extreme about the "MOTA" concept--LC members not only believe that Witness Lee is/was the "minister of the age" but the final "minister of the age" and the "minister of the present age," even though he has been dead for 20 years. So, this is not just "POTUS;" it's worse. It is more akin to the North Korean concept of "Eternal President" (and don't forget, the "minister of the age" is also "the acting God").
11-14-2017 10:57 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...yMinister.html

So anyone here is free to haggle, to massage or soften the firm, crystal clear declarations of the movement leaers, or to play verbal footsie with these declarations or acronyms - what they are not free to do is claim that the actual teachings, practices and history in the Local Church are being misrepresented here on this forum.
-
Apparently our beloved brothers Drake and Evangelical have never read the article you linked here from LSM's own website. Ironically even the website anticipated brothers like Drake and Evangelical would attempt to play verbal footsie with these declarations or acronyms," and included the following:
Quote:
Why is this important? It is more than mere semantics. To designate a certain person as a "minister of the age" is to say that he is the person through whom the Lord's up-to-date vision is being or has been released. As a result, that person and the vision released through him exercise a leadership role in advancing the Lord's move in His recovery. The actual leadership in the Lord's recovery rests not so much in a person, but more in a governing vision.
They love to hide behind this "governing vision" caveat, but that is only window dressing for casual bystanders. Insiders, especially the leaders, know full well all the ramifications that accompany the "actual leadership." Pay attention to another quote from this informative article:
Quote:
At the time of the Reformation in the 1520s, when Luther was raised up, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Luther. In the seventeenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Madame Guyon. In the eighteenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Zinzendorf. Even John Wesley received help from Zinzendorf. In the nineteenth century, J. N. Darby took the lead among the Brethren, and the vision was with him. In the twentieth century, the vision came to us.
Can anyone really believe that in the 17th century all those throughout the globe who served God with a vision had to join themselves to a solitary nun in France. Unbelievable! Classical historical revisionism! A totally self-serving distortion of church history! It's no wonder that LC members are not permitted to read others' books.
11-14-2017 10:18 AM
UntoHim
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I believe the term “ MOTA “ includes the notion of an official position like POTUS - President of the United States - and that idea of position is mainly found here in this forum, planted here in this forum, and morphed from its original simple descriptor “minister of the age “. Nowhere in the ministry is the term MOTA ever used nor is the position or office of a Minister of the Age ever conveyed.

Actually Witness Lee's "position" among his followers was something more powerful, more influential and more controlling than that of the POTUS, or President of the United States. The President and his power, influence and control is limited and balanced by two other equal branches of government - the legislative and judicial branches. (Interestingly enough, many Christian denominations have instituted such a leadership structure for the same reasons as the US government - to limit and balance the power, influence and control of the chief executive)

While I'm not suggesting in any way, shape or form that the Christian church formally, or even informally, institute such a governmental structure, I would point out the abject inherit dangers for a church group or movement that allows one single person to dictate "The Vision of the Age" through his personal ministry, "The Ministry of the Age", which is headed up solely by himself as "The Minister of the Age". This dynamic in the Local Church couldn't be any more or any less official than is described on the Local Church/LSM official website www.afaithfulword.org :
http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...yMinister.html

Whether or not there is the use of capitol letters is actually quite irrelevant. The OFFICIAL, PUBLISHED POSITION of the OFFICIAL leadership in the Local Church Movement is that there is ONE, SINGLE Vision of the Age, there is ONE, SINGLE Ministry of the Age, there is ONE, SINGLE Minister of the Age. All roads lead to Mr. Witness Lee. So anyone here is free to haggle, to massage or soften the firm, crystal clear declarations of the movement leaders, or to play verbal footsie with these declarations or acronyms - what they are not free to do is claim that the actual teachings, practices and history in the Local Church are being misrepresented here on this forum.

-
11-14-2017 08:33 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God's New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord's ministry and the one wise master builder [this refers to Lee] among us.
Thank you Ohio.

I have just quoted the relevant portion to this discussion.

1. Every elder (419 signatures) agreed to follow Witness Lee's leading. Hence he can be described as "the leader". This is what we are referring to in this thread as "the MOTA".

2. Witness Lee is described as "the one who brought us God's New Testament economy and has led us into its practice". This is also what we are referring to as the MOTA.

3. They acknowledge that Lee is the one trumpet -- again what we refer to as "The MOTA"

4. They acknowledge Lee is "the wise master builder" -- again what we refer to as "The MOTA".

Also, please notice they have elevated Lee's leading to a critical component of the oneness. Hence I have said that this has been elevated to an item of the faith. This justifies their excommunication of those that do not acknowledge Lee as MOTA.

I would also point out the hypocrisy -- in Witness Lee's thank you he says that "they are not to follow a man but the ministry".

I think there is only one reasonable way to understand this seeming contradiction. Witness Lee knew that the NT condemns following any man other than Jesus or elevating any man to an item of the faith, or making a cause of division over recognizing a man and his ministry. So he wants it both ways -- everyone pledges loyalty to him, yet they have to also view his ministry as being one and the same as the speaking of God.

It is not reasonable to interpret this as simply being an oath to be one with the Lord and His speaking. That is what we did when we were baptized and is reenforced every time we take the Lord's table and examine ourselves.

12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by the heaven, nor by the earth, nor by any other oath: but [e]let your yea be yea, and your nay, nay; that ye fall not under judgment.
11-14-2017 07:14 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

The text of the loyalty letter is here (annotations in bold are mine):
Dear Brother Lee,

After hearing your fellowship in this elders' training, we all agree to have a new start in the Lord's recovery. For this, we all agree to be in one accord and to carry out this new move of the Lord solely through prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry, the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth.

We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God's New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord's ministry and the one wise master builder [this refers to Lee] among us.

We further agree to practice the church life in our locality absolutely in a new way: to build the church in, through, and based upon home meetings; to lead every member to get used to functioning without any idea to depend on any giant speakers; to teach all the saints to know the basic truths in an educational way that they may teach others for the spreading of the truth; to build up the saints in the growth in life that they may minister life to others, shepherd each other, and take care of the backsliding ones; to lead all the saints to preach the gospel in every possible way; to avoid leadership as much as possible; and to have home gatherings for nurturing the saints in life and big meetings for educating the saints in truths. We agree that all the preceding points are the clear and definite teaching of the Bible according to God's New Testament economy.

Finally, we agree that the success of this new move is our responsibility and will rise up to labor and endeavor with our whole being, looking to the Lord for His mercy and grace that we would be faithful to the end.

Your brothers for the Lord's recovery

[Signatures]

April 11, 1986
(Witness Lee published this letter from 419 elders who signed this pledge. It is published in Elder’s Training, Book 8, The Life Pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, Chapter 10, Section 5. He also included a thank you letter from him showing that he approved of this special pledge.)

It should be also noted that some, like brother Don Rutledge of Dallas, were under enormous pressure to sign.
11-14-2017 06:34 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1

Okay ZNP. Thanks.

Please post or post the link for the loyalty pledge you mentioned.

Thanks
Drake
11-14-2017 06:04 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Right... I reiterate the above... but you said “MOTA”.

I shared several times why I object to the term.

Drake
Your objection is noted. You said that you felt this term was similar to a position like POTUS. However, you also agreed with the definition given by Kerry. Now there is a very broad interpretation of how that teaching is actually applied. I indicated that in my post. My personal experience is somewhere between the two extremes. I was able to navigate the LRC experience while ignoring this teaching. I ignored it because it was not codified in the printed ministry and because I was never required to pledge allegiance to Witness Lee.

I am using the term "MOTA" to refer to this definition by Kerry. You don't like us referring to this definition using the acronym MOTA, you have said so, I have read your objections, and I have decided they don't have merit because of the reasons I outline here.

Your position that MOTA does not refer to a position of power seems untenable to me since the elders of the churches were required to sign a loyalty pledge to Witness Lee.

Once I learned that I decided it could no longer be ignored and you had to come down on one side or the other. I like James warns, completely reject a loyalty pledge to Witness Lee or any other man.

In addition to this there are numerous troubling accounts of those who were "disciplined" or "excommunicated" because of their public stand not to pledge loyalty to Witness Lee. I realize these are not substantiated, but I lay that on the LRC leadership for not neglecting to respond to these allegations. For example, I was told directly by one of these involved that he did what he did because "it pleased Witness Lee". That would be a bizarre statement by a Christian leader if in fact Witness Lee did not have a position of power in the church.
11-13-2017 10:59 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Least>”This forum consists of individuals each with his/her own thinking. I do not know personally, anyone of them. I don’t know what POTUS is and I don’t follow that discussion. I only wanted to find out whether anyone has a biblical definition of LSM MOTA.
The answer for me is: There is none.
A few offered their own views, including Drake. But that's their own views.
********** ”


First, least, thanks for your thoughtful response. We will disagree on many points but your due diligence is commendable and I will do my best to reciprocate in kind.

I’ll start out with your first point because it is important to me though maybe not to others. I believe the term “ MOTA “ includes the notion of an official position like POTUS - President of the United States - and that idea of position is mainly found here in this forum, planted here in this forum, and morphed from its original simple descriptor “minister of the age “. Nowhere in the ministry is the term MOTA ever used nor is the position or office of a Minister of the Age ever conveyed. Some here point to Kerry’s excellent refutation of Tomes’ notion of many “ministers of the age” as proof that “Minister of the Age” was used in that article and yes, but only as a subtitle in front of a section or paragraph as would be proper written language construct. Yet, even at that Kerry is careful not to use “Minister of the Age” or “MOTA” in the body of the text and he certainly does not convey the notion of it being an office, like POTUS, or a position of power as it is here. And to square the distinction with POTUS we never use the acronym “LOTFW” but in referring to his function we will refer the President as “leader of the free world” not because of who he is within himself nor as a position or office. Finally, when trying to understand what the “minister of the age” means from the man who allegedly uses it to advance his own agenda we should be able to see a prominent presentation of this in his teachings. One cannot bend the world to his views if he hides the very thoughts that will convince others to follow him. Therefore, I still challenge anyone to produce an audio transcript from tapes if they claim that he spoke about the minister of the age one way and printed it another.

I put this here as reference so that you will know what I mean by minister of the age and if our conversation gets askew over the terms you will understand my point of view, and yes, it is my view. Else, your liberal use of “LSM MOTA” would hinder a meaningful conversation.

Thanks
Drake
11-13-2017 10:07 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Post #33

"Least,

Ok, You have no definition for minister of the age.

Do you agree that throughout biblical history God has raised up leaders to carry out what He wants to do in that time and place?

Drake"
Right... I reiterate the above... but you said “MOTA”.

I shared several times why I object to the term.

Drake
11-13-2017 06:56 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
He was not a historian but a theologian. Do you know the difference? Ohio and you have different views about Vincent. Ohio said he was wrong, you are trying to avoid saying that. If I say Paul was the head maybe I am being a historian too?
I am not a theologian. The term "apostolic head of Christianity" is historical.

If his point is that the majority of the NT is written by Paul and he provides the doctrinal basis for Christian worship then I think he is clearly wrong.

1. The basis for Christian worship, at its core, is baptism and the Lord's table, both of which were given to us by Jesus at His crucifixion and all that it entailed.

2. The basis for Christian worship as a religion that encompasses both Jews and Gentiles is with Peter who first baptized Gentiles. It is based on a vision he had that Christ's redemption cleansed all of creation, so you can again give credit to Jesus and His work of redemption. Paul's role was to explain the scriptural basis for this.

The idea that Peter was the "h" head of the church is absurd and has no basis in the NT.

The only person in the NT who was a "h" head of the church was James, the brother of the Lord. If you want to compare Witness Lee as the MOTA to a NT figure it should be to James when their were Judaizers coming from him intimidating Peter and others.

Fortunately James appears to have repented of this and his letter is very clear that we should not be respecters of man's person.
11-13-2017 05:28 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
No, I am calling him a historian when he refers to Paul as the "apostolic head of Christianity". Read the post.
He was not a historian but a theologian. Do you know the difference? Ohio and you have different views about Vincent. Ohio said he was wrong, you are trying to avoid saying that. If I say Paul was the head maybe I am being a historian too?
11-13-2017 04:27 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Now you are implying Vincent was an unbeliever for saying Paul was the head?

Cannot Paul be a servant by being the head? The bible says apostles are God's gift to the church.
No, I am calling him a historian when he refers to Paul as the "apostolic head of Christianity". Read the post.
11-13-2017 04:09 PM
least
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

This is a response to a post way up the thread. #244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
First, I do not agree with the acronym “MOTA” as it has morphed in this forum into something like an office, like POTUS. That conveys the wrong idea. When you ask “how LSM MOTA is/are biblical” I believe our understandings are so different that it would be impossible without first agreeing on a definition. Your second question is a good starting point for that.
This forum consists of individuals each with his/her own thinking. I do not know personally, anyone of them. I don’t know what POTUS is and I don’t follow that discussion. I only wanted to find out whether anyone has a biblical definition of LSM MOTA.
The answer for me is: There is none.
A few offered their own views, including Drake. But that's their own views.
**********

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Gods move in biblical history is revealed when He wants to do something. For instance, God wanted to preserve the human race and creatures so He used Noah to build an ark at that time and place.
(Ref: Genesis chapters 5- 8)
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

God wanted to destroy man; NOT- God wanted to preserve so He used Noah to build an ark …

And God said unto Noah, … Make thee an ark …. thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Noah found grace. God spared Noah and God told Noah to build an ark according to His instructions and God told Noah whom shalt come into the ark. Noah obeyed God. Noah did all that God commanded him to do. NOT – God ‘used’ Noah to … thus Noah was minister of that age just as WL is minister of this (the) age, with a ministry that ‘controls’ and ‘governs’ …

*********

Drake:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The ministry of that age was the building of a boat, the minister of that age was Noah, and the vision of that age, Gods coming judgement with a flood, was imparted to Noah from Enoch.
God said ‘this generation’, not ‘that age/the age’. Genesis 7: 1 - And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

There was NO ‘the vision of that age’ in the biblical Noah record. God did not say so. Bible does not say so.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

The coming flood was NOT a ‘vision’ given to Noah such that Noah was the ‘minister of that age’ and that ‘the ministry’ was the building of a boat (let’s say ark? - if you think I can’t understand ark than point out the bible verses wherewith God told Noah how to build the ark. So that I cannot be misled to imagine that Noah built a boat.) 😊
God TOLD Noah about the coming flood. God established His COVENANT with Noah and that Noah and his household will come into the ark. God did not make Noah a mota the way LSM made WL a MOTA.

Drake: the vision of that age, Gods coming judgement with a flood, was imparted to Noah from Enoch.

Enoch was Noah’s great grandfather. There is no biblical record that Enoch had ‘the vision of that age’. How could Enoch had imparted to Noah when God had taken Enoch hundreds of years before God (at Noah’s generation) grieved and wanted to flood to destroy?

Are you repeating what your MOTA told you? (Mormon’s The Doctrine and Covenants states that Enoch prophesied that one of his descendants, Noah, and his family, would survive a Great Flood and thus carry on the human race and preserve the Scripture.) WL had learnt quite some things from the Mormons. Mormons also say ‘they are gods’ and also say ‘they were without bodies in previous world and come to be in bodies and they will return to without bodies in another world’.

Drake:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
That was the ministry (or service) of that age and if you lived in that place at that time and wanted to participate in what God was doing then you joined in with Noah because that is who God was using.
WHAT WAS GOD DOING, in that place at that time, that you wanted to participate?

I Peter 3: 20
… when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, …

God waited while the ark was a preparing, is that what you wanted to participate?

Drake: ‘joined in with Noah’.
helloooo … God ONLY told Noah to build the ark.
Who would let you join in? God or Noah? God did not tell Noah to let anyone join in and God himself told no one to join in.

Drake: because that (Noah) is who God was using
God was not ‘using’ Noah, God was ‘saving’ Noah.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
If you lived at that time and decided Noah was a crazy old fool for building a big boat and instead choose to build the best rowing boats on the Euphrates then you could do that but you would not be partipating in what God was doing at that time and place with and through Noah.
Eh, was there a choice to build a big boat or a rowing boat? (Imagination …)
You’ve twisted what God said. God told Noah to build an ark. God did not tell anyone else to join Noah, (so that these ones participate in what God was doing at that time and that place). God wanted to destroy man, did God say to man to ‘participate’ in it?

God ‘build the ark’ with and through Noah? You twisted what God was doing. God was waiting while Noah build the ark. God established a covenant with Noah, God told Noah to enter the ark ... God flooded the earth ...

You cannot join Noah. You did not find grace in God's eyes. God did not say you were righteous. You can join your MOTA tho. So your MOTA is not the same as Noah- as you like to imply.
You cannot participate in what God was doing in that place at that time. You think God wanted you to destroy the earth together with Him (including destroying your own self)?. You think God is what you think He is, according to your MOTA's ministry doctrine? You can participate in what your MOTA was doing tho, in your time and in your place, and eventho he is dead, you are still under and with him. Your MOTA said he is (was?) god; but he is not God. He is god without head (god but not the Godhead), whatever that means ... but you are god too according to The Ministry Of The Age, flowing out of the LSM printing press. But God is not you.


Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Both would be building boats but only one was according to God’s design for His purpose and the other, though also a boat, swift and streamlined for gliding up and down the river, would not survive the ultimate test... the flood.
Eh? More imaginations …

**********


To promote the LSM MOTA to biblical status, Drake used Noah in the bible as an instance, to support LSM’s claim of its copyrighted authors and their works, to be God’s “The minister(s) of the age” and “The ministry of the age”.
But Drake’s account of Noah (and God’s move, at that time and place) is twisted and disfigured Noah and God. The purpose is to fit Noah into the LSM MOTA mould; to make Noah a mota in the order of LSM ordained MOTA list.


This LSM MOTA stuff is extra-biblical. MOTA is LSM publishing company’s branding.


Don’t go on about the next LSM ordained mota. I cannot bear to sort out another disfigured ‘bible record’.

**********


Psalm 50: 21
These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.
Psalm 55: 19
God shall hear, and afflict them, even he that abideth of old. Selah. Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God.

-
11-13-2017 03:34 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Why do you say that an esteemed scholar like Vincent is wrong on such a simple thing but you are right.
I don't think you want to open the door to that line of thinking...
11-13-2017 03:24 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I never said Paul was the Head but the head. Are not church leaders a head if not what are they?a foot?
The Greek manuscripts never had lower or upper case, and Praise God, we only had one HEAD, who is our risen Savior, Christ the Lord!
11-13-2017 03:21 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
No, Vincent was both wrong and distorted by you.

Only Jesus is the servant Head of the church.

I know this comes as a shock to you, but it's for your own good.
I never said Paul was the Head but the head. Are not church leaders a head if not what are they?a foot?

Why do you say that an esteemed scholar like Vincent is wrong on such a simple thing but you are right.
11-13-2017 02:36 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Now you are implying Vincent was an unbeliever for saying Paul was the head?

Cannot Paul be a servant by being the head? The bible says apostles are God's gift to the church.
No, Vincent was both wrong and distorted by you.

Only Jesus is the servant Head of the church.

I know this comes as a shock to you, but it's for your own good.
11-13-2017 02:33 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I did not distort anything. The meaning of the first para you quoted is to say that Paul was no less than the others despite not knowing Christ in the flesh. This is strong proof against those that say only the 12 disciples were the real apostles or that Christ stopped calling prominent apostles after His ascension.

The second part is the same portion I quoted.
It still says Paul was the head of Christianity in the city. Note how it refers to the locality and not any particular denomination thus proving that the genuine church in the city can indeed have a human head. Human heads are not merely for religious organizations as some suppose. And to clatify my view of the term head is not the same as the Catholic or Nicolaitan view.

So I dont know what you think you have accomplished since you have just quoted the same thing as I and it shows that Paul was the head in ALL Achaia.
That's your conclusion?

And now acc. to Vincent, Witness Lee is now the head of the whole earth?

But I'm not supposed to think that is the same as the Pope.

Right! Now I understand.

"Even when you are wrong, you are right."
11-13-2017 02:10 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I also find this discussion despicable. If I am talking to an unbeliever and they say that Paul is the founder of Christianity I have no issue with that because they have already taken a stand that they do not believe in the resurrected Christ. Likewise with historians.

To a believer the reality of "Christianity" is the Body of Christ. This is the "new creation" and came about at Jesus Resurrection from the dead. We are only required to keep Baptism and the Lord's table -- both instituted by Jesus, not Paul.

Paul was a great apostle, and to an unbeliever they can call him "the head of the church" because their is no confusion with the head of the Body, nor can you insult Jesus the head if you have no faith in Him.

To believers Paul was a gift to the Body so that we could understand the change in the Age and how the New Covenant related to the Old Covenant. He was a servant, not "the head".
Now you are implying Vincent was an unbeliever for saying Paul was the head?

Cannot Paul be a servant by being the head? The bible says apostles are God's gift to the church.
11-13-2017 02:01 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Talk about distortion!

Here is what Marvin Vincent really said about I Cor 1.1:
1. Called to be an apostle. See on Rom 1.1. Compare I Tim. 1.1 Not distinguishing him from other apostles. Compare Matt 4.21; John 6.70; but Paul was called no less directly than these by Jesus Christ.
Here is what Marvin Vincent really said about I Cor 1.2:
Theirs and ours. The A.V. and Rev. connect with Jesus Christ our Lord. Better with in every place. Every place in the province where Christians are is our place also. The expression emphasizes the position of Paul as the founder and apostolic head of Christianity in Corinth and in all Achaia.

Vincett said that Paul brought the gospel to Corinth and defended his authority as "founder and apostolic head of Christianity in that city," and as such he defended the gospel against the false apostles and false teachings.

I protested the word "head" because folks like Evangelical would yank it out of context, and place this pseudo-crown on Lee.

And that he surely did.
I did not distort anything. The meaning of the first para you quoted is to say that Paul was no less than the others despite not knowing Christ in the flesh. This is strong proof against those that say only the 12 disciples were the real apostles or that Christ stopped calling prominent apostles after His ascension.

The second part is the same portion I quoted.
It still says Paul was the head of Christianity in the city. Note how it refers to the locality and not any particular denomination thus proving that the genuine church in the city can indeed have a human head. Human heads are not merely for religious organizations as some suppose. And to clatify my view of the term head is not the same as the Catholic or Nicolaitan view.

So I dont know what you think you have accomplished since you have just quoted the same thing as I and it shows that Paul was the head in ALL Achaia.
11-13-2017 09:46 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

ZNP>"So far the argument from Drake and Evangelical is that there are leaders in Christianity, the term MOTA is simply equivalent to leaders just like Paul, Peter, and other church leaders."

Whoa!

I never said that. .. at all.

Tell me what I said about the term "MOTA". Post it here.

Drake
11-13-2017 08:40 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Moving On

So far the argument from Drake and Evangelical is that there are leaders in Christianity, the term MOTA is simply equivalent to leaders just like Paul, Peter, and other church leaders.

When asked about the well documented claims that people were told "we follow Lee", or "Even if he is wrong he is right" or "We only teach what Lee teaches" the response is that there is a presumption there they are not willing to accept. And to be fair many if not all of these comments are edited out of LSM publications. Therefore it falls into a "he said, he said" waste of time. Except for those of us who have witnessed this first hand. For us it seems very strange that Drake who claims to have known these various brothers for decades never heard or witnessed the things we heard and witnessed from them.

But when asked about testimonies of those who were excommunicated for not receiving the MOTA doctrine they are silent. Except to critique the forum and say that comments and posts on this forum are not appropriate as though the issue isn't that someone got excommunicated, but rather the issue is they didn't complain properly.

When asked further on this they suggest the proper way is to set up a meeting, yet there have been a number of documented cases where that did not work. John Ingalls documents some in his book, many others have been documented on this forum.

They also suggest sending an email -- something that many did, most notably Indiana. They also suggest sending a letter, registered mail, etc. All of which Indiana did.

In conclusion the things done in the name of MOTA are indefensible from a Biblical or righteous point of view.

2nd -- The key doctrine necessary for the MOTA doctrine to exist is "The Ground of the Church" doctrine. Take this doctrine away and there is no basis for WN or WL to claim to be the MOTA.

Hence these are the two fundamental doctrines to WL's sect that make it a damnable heresy.
11-13-2017 08:28 AM
UntoHim
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

ZNP, please continue your conversation with Drake through the PM system. We all know the story with you and Ed Marks. It's only relevant to this thread to a point. You have made your point. Move on.
-
11-13-2017 08:24 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Talk about distortion!

Here is what Marvin Vincent really said about I Cor 1.1:
1. Called to be an apostle. See on Rom 1.1. Compare I Tim. 1.1 Not distinguishing him from other apostles. Compare Matt 4.21; John 6.70; but Paul was called no less directly than these by Jesus Christ.
Here is what Marvin Vincent really said about I Cor 1.2:
Theirs and ours. The A.V. and Rev. connect with Jesus Christ our Lord. Better with in every place. Every place in the province where Christians are is our place also. The expression emphasizes the position of Paul as the founder and apostolic head of Christianity in Corinth and in all Achaia.

Vincett said that Paul brought the gospel to Corinth and defended his authority as "founder and apostolic head of Christianity in that city," and as such he defended the gospel against the false apostles and false teachings.

I protested the word "head" because folks like Evangelical would yank it out of context, and place this pseudo-crown on Lee.

And that he surely did.
I also find this discussion despicable. If I am talking to an unbeliever and they say that Paul is the founder of Christianity I have no issue with that because they have already taken a stand that they do not believe in the resurrected Christ. Likewise with historians.

To a believer the reality of "Christianity" is the Body of Christ. This is the "new creation" and came about at Jesus Resurrection from the dead. We are only required to keep Baptism and the Lord's table -- both instituted by Jesus, not Paul.

Paul was a great apostle, and to an unbeliever they can call him "the head of the church" because their is no confusion with the head of the Body, nor can you insult Jesus the head if you have no faith in Him.

To believers Paul was a gift to the Body so that we could understand the change in the Age and how the New Covenant related to the Old Covenant. He was a servant, not "the head".
11-13-2017 08:17 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

ZNP,

You asked, but to be frank it is hard to say how it appeared to Ed or the elders since I am only reading your version and do not have the benefit of the audio to hear the tone or the video to observe the body language. Nevertheless, angst is evident in your text alone.

But I am curious, why you did not discuss with Ed as an acquaintance since you had a history? He apparently considered there to be some basis since he spent time discussing his feelings about the situation with you.

Drake
I don't understand the question. I talked with him for about 10 minutes. He then excused himself to go to the meeting in the elder's room.

We were in a room with about 30 - 40 people, including my son. Yet my son at the next table did not hear a word of our conversation. The tone and attitude was respectful and neither of us raised our voices.

I began by introducing myself lest he did not recognize me (I had not seen him in 30 years).

As for my "angst". I was not in any way affected by the sins of PL nor was I affected by Ed's apology letter which I had just recently learned about close to 30 years later. I had heard from those on this forum about it but thought it fair to give Ed a chance to respond.

Likewise I had no issue with the elders in NY. They were the ones that sent me to Taipei. I lived with brother James for years when I was at Dunton House (he stayed there on the weekends). I knew that he had expressed deep revulsion at PL, and he was the one that first informed me of PL's sins.

Nope, my angst developed afterwards when I realized people I had known for years, and a ministry that I had served for many years were behaving in this way.
11-13-2017 08:04 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
What is it about what you said that I distorted?

I quoted Vincent that Paul was the head of Christianity.
Talk about distortion!

Here is what Marvin Vincent really said about I Cor 1.1:
1. Called to be an apostle. See on Rom 1.1. Compare I Tim. 1.1 Not distinguishing him from other apostles. Compare Matt 4.21; John 6.70; but Paul was called no less directly than these by Jesus Christ.
Here is what Marvin Vincent really said about I Cor 1.2:
Theirs and ours. The A.V. and Rev. connect with Jesus Christ our Lord. Better with in every place. Every place in the province where Christians are is our place also. The expression emphasizes the position of Paul as the founder and apostolic head of Christianity in Corinth and in all Achaia.

Vincett said that Paul brought the gospel to Corinth and defended his authority as "founder and apostolic head of Christianity in that city," and as such he defended the gospel against the false apostles and false teachings.

I protested the word "head" because folks like Evangelical would yank it out of context, and place this pseudo-crown on Lee.

And that he surely did.
11-13-2017 07:25 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

-1

ZNP,

You asked, but to be frank it is hard to say how it appeared to Ed or the elders since I am only reading your version and do not have the benefit of the audio to hear the tone or the video to observe the body language. Nevertheless, angst is evident in your text alone.

But I am curious, why you did not discuss with Ed as an acquaintance since you had a history? He apparently considered there to be some basis since he spent time discussing his feelings about the situation with you.

Drake
11-13-2017 06:20 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
My take... since you insist....I think you picked the wrong time and place. If you had a relationship with Ed why not reconnect that evening and then ask him if you can call him or email to discuss an important matter. Doing it the way you did on that occasion probably seemed like an ambush....
Shoot, why didn't we think of that?

I hope Indiana is reading this.

So if I understand you correctly, a private meeting, like the one John Ingalls had with Witness Lee or the Texas Elders would have been more appropriate.

Or sending an email like Indiana did.

Or sending a letter, like Indiana did.

Or sending a certified letter like Indiana did.

23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
you pulled out a letter about a 30 year old event, he tried to say kindly he hoped that since PL was dead it would be less of an issue, you pressed him apparently wanting to extract something more out of him more than he could provide, he was a guest at the event so he brought it NY elders attention, they apparently thought you were inappropriately taking advantage of the situation. .. so they walked you out the door.

Yeah, I think you could have handled it differently. That's how I see it from your description.


Drake
Wow that is a strange take no this. See in my view 30 years is a very long time to take to deal with something. The issue isn't that PL is dead, the issue is the Ed Marks wrote an apology to him despite the offenses he committed, and those who had been wronged by him were offended and left, who also were still very much alive.

The way I look at it no one could have "taken advantage of the situation if Ed had dealt with this 30 years ago.

Personally I see the response that "he doesn't want to deal with this right now" as equally offensive. Perhaps 3 hours after the event, or 3 days after the event that could fly, but 30 years later and you still haven't dealt with it?

Also, in my feeling if a brother had come to me with this offense and I did bring it to the NY elders and they were the ones that walked the brother out. Then I would have felt obligated to contact that brother later to at a more appropriate time.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
11-13-2017 06:15 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
You said very clearly that you felt the response by many on this forum was in some way inappropriate.

Therefore I told you how I approached Ed Marks and discussed this with him and the response of both Ed and the church.

I would like you to tell me what the appropriate way would have been to approach Ed Marks.

I had learned that saints had been hurt, offended and in some cases left the recovery over this. Therefore I felt I had a responsibility to take these concerns to Ed.

So please, since you have already critiqued the response of many, tell me what I could have done that would have been more appropriate?
My take... since you insist....I think you picked the wrong time and place. If you had a relationship with Ed why not reconnect that evening and then ask him if you can call him or email to discuss an important matter. Doing it the way you did on that occasion probably seemed like an ambush.... you pulled out a letter about a 30 year old event, he tried to say kindly he hoped that since PL was dead it would be less of an issue, you pressed him apparently wanting to extract something more out of him more than he could provide, he was a guest at the event so he brought it NY elders attention, they apparently thought you were inappropriately taking advantage of the situation. .. so they walked you out the door.

Yeah, I think you could have handled it differently. That's how I see it from your description.


Drake
11-13-2017 05:57 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP,

Oh, I don’t think most those are questions of inquiry but rather questions of presumption.
You said very clearly that you felt the response by many on this forum was in some way inappropriate.

Therefore I told you how I approached Ed Marks and discussed this with him and the response of both Ed and the church elders.

If you feel this was "hearsay" the decision by the elders was relayed to me by two serving brothers that I could approach and my son was also present and can act as another witness. Not to mention a number of saints who could verify parts of the story (I was there, I talked to Ed, I was then kicked out a little while later).

I would like you to tell me what the appropriate way would have been to approach Ed Marks?

I had learned that saints had been hurt, offended and in some cases left the recovery over this. Therefore I felt I had a responsibility to take these concerns to Ed.

So please, since you have already critiqued the response of many, tell me what I could have done that would have been more appropriate?

In #347 I asked "What is the proper way to protest sin?" Where is the "presumption"?

You were the one that said we were doing it wrong, so please, educate us, what is the correct way to protest sin?
11-13-2017 05:53 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
What is it about what you said that I distorted?

I quoted Vincent that Paul was the head of Christianity.

You said you believe the terminology of "small h head" is insulting.

So you must believe that Vincent's word studies is insulting because he says Paul is the small h head of Christianity.

Are they not the facts of this discussion?
Has anyone been excommunicated because they disagreed with Vincent?

Has anyone been told that if Vincent doesn't teach it we don't?

Has anyone told you that they apologized to a sexual predator and asked to return to their good graces because "it pleased Vincent"?

Those are the points that are in contention on this thread.

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
11-12-2017 10:03 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Post #358, #347 and #326 all have questions.
ZNP,

Oh, I don’t think most those are questions of inquiry but rather questions of presumption. Like if I were to ask you “Are you still beating your wife?” presumes you did once and maybe still do.

You assert that Brother Joe Davis told you to to disregard the truth and the Spirit’s speaking and then ask Evangelical and I to answer your question of presumption. Well, I’ve known Brother Joe Davis for decades and I never heard him say anything close to that. I have heard him say he trusts the ministry completely and has proven it over and over. If you were a teacher, then I can understand why he wanted you to teach and trust the source. That is not the same as the way you characterized it, therefore it is not possible to provide an answer because we cannot agree on the question or its basis. Many of your questions, perhaps most, are like that so I just consider them as Op Ed, not inquiry. They need no answer because they are opinion merely in the form of a question.

It is also plausible that you misinterpreted what Brother Joe meant. I base this on a recent conversation we were having where you misinterpreted something I said and it somehow turned in your mind that I agreed something was a “damnable heresy”. I never did but you took my 2 added it to your 2 and came up with 5. You see ZNP, the whole thing then becomes convoluted and normally reasonable men cannot reason together. That is why I do not have the heart or energy to unpack most of your questions to get to a question I can actually answer!

Drake
11-12-2017 08:58 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Great example of someone distorting what someone else said and falsely quoting them.

Now why would you have to stoop to such a demeaning style?
What is it about what you said that I distorted?

I quoted Vincent that Paul was the head of Christianity.

You said you believe the terminology of "small h head" is insulting.

So you must believe that Vincent's word studies is insulting because he says Paul is the small h head of Christianity.

Are they not the facts of this discussion?

Regarding the uniqueness of Paul - you will note that I attributed this uniqueness to the fact that his writings comprised a lot of the New Testament.

Now unless you can say this of every member you think is unique in their own special way (and you are correct, everyone is unique in a way), then we are not talking about the same thing.

I would even say your beloved James is unique, but not for the same reason as Paul is unique. James is unique because he is the only one which defines religion and which unlike Paul, clearly explains the role of faith and works. But he is not unique in the sense of divine revelation such that he would be the minister of the age.
11-12-2017 10:23 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Read the gospels. Jesus asked questions and answered them. Yes he spoke in parables but not exclusively.

Jesus also used aphorisms and plain speech. He was so open to others that he even answered the questions of demons.

Jesus' wisdom was not the conventional kind. Some times he answered a question with a question. He used parables to provoke thought.

Witness Lee made the mistake of interpreting Jesus' parables as allegories with one correct interpretation. Jesus' parables resist conclusive interpretation. That's what makes them endlessly perplexing and fascinating.

Open your Bible to the gospels on just about any page and you will see examples of what I'm talking about. My Bible is open to Matthew 8:2 to 9:21. Jesus asks the disciples "Why are you afraid?" Two demoniacs ask Jesus "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time? " They ask to be cast into swine and Jesus grants them their request! Jesus asks "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, Your sins are forgiven, ' or to say, "Rise and walk." The disciples of John ask "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast." Jesus answers "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? " Again, he provokes them to think rather than giving a dogmatic answer.

Jesus was in a continual dialogue with others. Witness Lee conducted an endless monologue. If you disagreed you got kicked out or sued. Take Drake's advise and follow Jesus.
Great points, zeek. What a pleasantly surprising post!

11-12-2017 09:48 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Zeek>”The Lord didn't merely show me. It's in the gospels for everyone to read.”

Zeek,

If what the Lord has shown you is that which is found in the gospels for everyone to read then go with that. That is a marvelous and wonderful revelation and I don’t believe the Lord will hold you accountable for more than He has shown you.

Drake
11-12-2017 09:02 AM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The bible seems to say opposite to what you are saying. Rather than being a person open to questions and responding, Jesus often spoke in parables that left even his closest disciples scratching their heads. Rather than give straight answers, Jesus seemed to ignore or defer thus infuriating his questioners.
Read the gospels. Jesus asked questions and answered them. Yes he spoke in parables but not exclusively.

Jesus also used aphorisms and plain speech. He was so open to others that he even answered the questions of demons.

Jesus' wisdom was not the conventional kind. Some times he answered a question with a question. He used parables to provoke thought.

Witness Lee made the mistake of interpreting Jesus' parables as allegories with one correct interpretation. Jesus' parables resist conclusive interpretation. That's what makes them endlessly perplexing and fascinating.

Open your Bible to the gospels on just about any page and you will see examples of what I'm talking about. My Bible is open to Matthew 8:2 to 9:21. Jesus asks the disciples "Why are you afraid?" Two demoniacs ask Jesus "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time? " They ask to be cast into swine and Jesus grants them their request! Jesus asks "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, Your sins are forgiven, ' or to say, "Rise and walk." The disciples of John ask "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast." Jesus answers "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? " Again, he provokes them to think rather than giving a dogmatic answer.

Jesus was in a continual dialogue with others. Witness Lee conducted an endless monologue. If you disagreed you got kicked out or sued. Take Drake's advise and follow Jesus.
11-12-2017 05:50 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
So you believe that Vincent's word studies is insulting to Jesus Christ.
Great example of someone distorting what someone else said and falsely quoting them.

Now why would you have to stoop to such a demeaning style?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
To understand the term "unique", consider, why the New Testament is not comprised of one book from each of the 12 disciples and Paul's letters made up almost 50% of the New Testament? There were 12 apostles, were all they all of equal importance? The very composition of our bibles seems to suggestion not. Also, the contributions of Paul seem to outweigh Peter, James and John despite these 3 being more personally acquainted with Christ than Paul.
I could do the same thing about every single member of the church. In one way or another we are all unique. This discussion has become idiotic.

Did you respond to my questions? No.

Did you justify the excommunication of saints due to this doctrine? No.

Did you justify Ed Mark's "pleasing man instead of God"? No.

Did you justify Joe Davis' decision to let Witness Lee, not the Spirit, decide what he can and cannot say? No.
11-11-2017 09:17 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Can you provide additional context on what you're trying to communicate here?
Zeek wrote "According to the gospels Jesus was a man who asked questions and who responded to questions when asked.".

I think the bible does not show this. Jesus often spoke in parables and avoided answering questions with a direct answer. Often his responses were rhetorical, or satirical. Jesus never asked a question to learn something because Jesus knew all things.
11-11-2017 08:20 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The bible seems to say opposite to what you are saying. Rather than being a person open to questions and responding, Jesus often spoke in parables that left even his closest disciples scratching their heads. Rather than give straight answers, Jesus seemed to ignore or defer thus infuriating his questioners.
Can you provide additional context on what you're trying to communicate here?
11-11-2017 08:11 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Paul was an apostle who was commissioned to "complete the word of God".

However, I do not understand this word "unique". There were 12 apostles. There were numerous writers of the NT, in fact many books appear to have been something of a collaborative work.

That said, as much as I appreciate Paul, I do not consider him as a "small h head in the church" as you put it. I find that terminology insulting to the head, Jesus Christ. I also find it incongruous to a basic understanding of biology.

There is only one person, Jesus Christ, that you should be required to confess.

The issue I have with MOTA is not that WL was the leader of your group. I don't even care that you have to pledge allegiance to WL to be in the group. What I do care about is that you portray yourselves as Christians, pretend to be standing on the Bible, and at the very same time that you do that you also require elders to sign a loyalty pledge to Witness Lee and you excommunicate those who have an issue with this.

I care that one of your so called "leaders", Joe Davis, admits that he will not teach anything that Witness Lee doesn't teach, as though Witness Lee is Lord.

I care that another one of your so called leaders, Ed Marks, told me that he signed the apology letter to a sexual predator because "it made Witness Lee happy". I am not here to please man, but your so called leaders are.

I care that another one of your so called leaders, Benjamin Chen (he recently passed), had me removed from the meeting hall because I wanted Ed to explain that letter to me. I went to Ed according to Matt 18, as prescribed by the Lord, yet listening to the Lord is not permitted in the meeting halls of the LRC.

These are three examples of my first hand experience. All three of these experiences are blatantly condemned in the NT by Paul and the other apostles.
So you believe that Vincent's word studies is insulting to Jesus Christ.

To understand the term "unique", consider, why the New Testament is not comprised of one book from each of the 12 disciples and Paul's letters made up almost 50% of the New Testament? There were 12 apostles, were all they all of equal importance? The very composition of our bibles seems to suggestion not. Also, the contributions of Paul seem to outweigh Peter, James and John despite these 3 being more personally acquainted with Christ than Paul.
11-11-2017 08:09 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
The Lord didn't merely show me. It's in the gospels for everyone to read. According to the gospels Jesus was a man who asked questions and who responded to questions when asked. Witness Lee was not like that. He discouraged questions. I went to several of his Life-study trainings in Anaheim, CA and in Irvine, Tx. The trainings were structured to digest his teachings through pray-reading and rote memorization. He did not take questions from the trainees. He taught that questions were of the devil. He did not support the kind of independent thinking that you and Evangelical are exhibiting on this website. According to my expereince during 13 years of "church life" Lee's sole emphasis was on the spirited regurgitation of his own teaching.
The bible seems to say opposite to what you are saying. Rather than being a person open to questions and responding, Jesus often spoke in parables that left even his closest disciples scratching their heads. Rather than give straight answers, Jesus seemed to ignore or defer thus infuriating his questioners.
11-11-2017 07:24 PM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Zeek>”Who should I follow?”

Zeek,

Follow the Lord according to what He has shown you.

Drake
The Lord didn't merely show me. It's in the gospels for everyone to read. According to the gospels Jesus was a man who asked questions and who responded to questions when asked. Witness Lee was not like that. He discouraged questions. I went to several of his Life-study trainings in Anaheim, CA and in Irvine, Tx. The trainings were structured to digest his teachings through pray-reading and rote memorization. He did not take questions from the trainees. He taught that questions were of the devil. He did not support the kind of independent thinking that you and Evangelical are exhibiting on this website. According to my expereince during 13 years of "church life" Lee's sole emphasis was on the spirited regurgitation of his own teaching.
11-11-2017 07:15 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Guys, the MOTA question resolves down to one thing : Revelation of and from Christ. It's pretty clear that that is what Paul was doing, speaking, and writing from. He claims it.

So was Witness Lee doing, and speaking, from the same kind of Revelation of Christ as Paul?

If so, Lee was the MOTA. If not, Lee was a pretender.
11-11-2017 06:56 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Would you care to share your interpretation of LSM's definition of leader to avoid any confusion?

fyi Witness Lee has been called "our leader" in this thread and I thought the terms MOTA and leader were more or less interchangable. MOTA would be a "unique leader" as Paul was a "unique leader". Of course this does not mean that the MOTA or Lee or Paul was the only leader in the church. Elders are leaders, husbands are leaders over their wives and children/home. Wives are leaders over their children. Anyone who takes the lead in the church is a leader as well, it could be anyone.

As the head of Christianity Paul's messages carried weight and authority.
Paul was an apostle who was commissioned to "complete the word of God".

However, I do not understand this word "unique". There were 12 apostles. There were numerous writers of the NT, in fact many books appear to have been something of a collaborative work.

That said, as much as I appreciate Paul, I do not consider him as a "small h head in the church" as you put it. I find that terminology insulting to the head, Jesus Christ. I also find it incongruous to a basic understanding of biology.

There is only one person, Jesus Christ, that you should be required to confess.

The issue I have with MOTA is not that WL was the leader of your group. I don't even care that you have to pledge allegiance to WL to be in the group. What I do care about is that you portray yourselves as Christians, pretend to be standing on the Bible, and at the very same time that you do that you also require elders to sign a loyalty pledge to Witness Lee and you excommunicate those who have an issue with this.

I care that one of your so called "leaders", Joe Davis, admits that he will not teach anything that Witness Lee doesn't teach, as though Witness Lee is Lord.

I care that another one of your so called leaders, Ed Marks, told me that he signed the apology letter to a sexual predator because "it made Witness Lee happy". I am not here to please man, but your so called leaders are.

I care that another one of your so called leaders, Benjamin Chen (he recently passed), had me removed from the meeting hall because I wanted Ed to explain that letter to me. I went to Ed according to Matt 18, as prescribed by the Lord, yet listening to the Lord is not permitted in the meeting halls of the LRC.

These are three examples of my first hand experience. All three of these experiences are blatantly condemned in the NT by Paul and the other apostles.
11-11-2017 04:58 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
This thread is about the "Minister of the Age", and "The Ministry of the Age". If you are equating "leaders in the church" with "The Minister of the Age" then your definition is very different from LSM's and your discussion is irrelevant because we are talking about LSM's definition.
Would you care to share your interpretation of LSM's definition of leader to avoid any confusion?

fyi Witness Lee has been called "our leader" in this thread and I thought the terms MOTA and leader were more or less interchangable. MOTA would be a "unique leader" as Paul was a "unique leader". Of course this does not mean that the MOTA or Lee or Paul was the only leader in the church. Elders are leaders, husbands are leaders over their wives and children/home. Wives are leaders over their children. Anyone who takes the lead in the church is a leader as well, it could be anyone.

As the head of Christianity Paul's messages carried weight and authority.
11-11-2017 04:46 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I didn't change your question, I answered it by showing that leaders or small h people in the church are needed. A small h head is leader, right? That's why they are needed, because the church needs small l leaders to help us follow the big L Leader and the big H Head. God gave these as gifts to the church (Eph 4:11, 1 Cor 12:28).

If you have a problem with the idea of Paul being the small h head of Christianity I suggest you ask why Vincent would say that, I was merely quoting him. Is Vincent wrong? Vincent was Presbyterian I thought.
This thread is about the "Minister of the Age", and "The Ministry of the Age". If you are equating "leaders in the church" with "The Minister of the Age" then your definition is very different from LSM's and your discussion is irrelevant because we are talking about LSM's definition.
11-11-2017 04:41 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Yes, I do not see anything in that reference that indicates a need for the apostle Paul to be a "small h head" for the church.

Second you have changed my question into why does the church need leaders, not my question.

You said that Paul was the "small h head" of Christianity. Besides having no scriptural basis, and besides the fact that this is a ridiculous doctrine, it is also something that Paul and Peter both rejected in the clearest terms when others attempted similar things.
I didn't change your question, I answered it by showing that leaders or small h people in the church are needed. A small h head is leader, right? That's why they are needed, because the church needs small l leaders to help us follow the big L Leader and the big H Head. God gave these as gifts to the church (Eph 4:11, 1 Cor 12:28).

If you have a problem with the idea of Paul being the small h head of Christianity I suggest you ask why Vincent would say that, I was merely quoting him. Is Vincent wrong? Vincent was Presbyterian I thought.
11-11-2017 11:11 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Zeek>”Who should I follow?”

Zeek,

Follow the Lord according to what He has shown you.

Drake
11-11-2017 09:43 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
This is a thought provoking consideration Evangelical poses.

If there are sects then what are they a sect of or from?

It seems that the majority opinion of posters in this forum is that divisions and sects are normal. When awareness says “You’re all sects” he is bringing to the top of the table that unstated view that lives under the table..... and no one seems to mind.

Drake
The most fundamental cause of the "divisions" in the Body is time and space. You can have large meetings with thousands of saints but they are very impersonal and are ideally designed to speak a single word that thousands are to listen to. That is not the meeting described in 1Cor14 where different ones can stand up speak, and every member can bring something to share at the meeting. Meetings of that nature are generally less than 100 people and often 40 or less. It stands to reason if there are a billion Christians on this planet on every continent that we would have a great variety of meetings.

Hence I distinguish between "heresies" -- schools of thought, and "damnable heresies" -- heresies that insult the name of Jesus.

You can't have a gathering of 40 without it being a "school of thought". Regardless of how much you tried to avoid that you could still be classified by someone as falling into a certain classification of thought. That is unavoidable. So to me the only prerequisite for this meeting are those given in Matt. 18.

However, if that gathering has certain prerequisites that are extra biblical, then that could classify as a "damnable heresy" or what Evangelical and you loosely refer to as "sects and divisions". Simply having a meeting hall for Christians and teaching the word does not make you a "sect or division" in my opinion. It simply makes you practical.
11-11-2017 09:31 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP,

Big difference between rejecting doctrine and rejecting a person.

You are over complicating this.

Drake
How am I overcomplicating this? People were excommunicated from the LRC for rejecting the MOTA doctrine (see Awareness and Zeek's testimony)

I was told that we were not to teach anything in the LRC that Witness Lee himself did not teach regardless of the truth. I was told this by Joe Davis who was an elder in Houston at the time but is now a BB.

And UntoHim has quoted references to direct quotes by Witness Lee that his speaking is equivalent to God's speaking. "And if you listen to me, you do not listen to Lee, you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me".

Since you are able to simplify this explain what the difference is?

How do you excommunicate people over a doctrine if it is not on par with the items of the faith?

How do you only teach what Witness Lee teaches and swallow statements like "you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me" and yet say those of us claiming that in the LRC they equate rejecting MOTA with rejecting Jesus as "overcomplicating this"?

Whether you do or don't, that is not the question. The question is how do you explain these actions, this speaking?
11-11-2017 07:16 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
So, Drake do you suppose I'll be in trouble at the judgment seat for asking too many questions?
I don't know, of course, but you might be in more trouble for coming up with answers.
11-11-2017 05:27 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
I'm curious about Kangas' proposition that both Nee and Lee are ministers of the present age. When I participated in the Local Church Movement, the leaders discouraged us from reading Nee's books, saying that we should only ingest the up-to-date ministry of Witness Lee.
I was not discouraged, I was "steered". Our bookroom had both, I was told that Nee was "HS" and Lee was "college". But I ignored that advice. I had personally felt one of Lee's book's I read was a waste of time and didn't make that mistake again. However, we were definitely discouraged from reading non approved versions of Nee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Now both Nee and Lee are MOTAs of the "present age." Previously the principle was that could only be one MOTA per age. Now you've got two? Doesn't having two violate the principle?
Reminds me of the two high priests involved in Jesus crucifixion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
And doesn't dying end the age of one's MOTAhood? Kangas mocked the Lutherans for their continuing reverence for MOTA Martin Luther 500 years later. But, the LSM's continued reverence of the Nee and Lee MOTAhood raises the question whether MOTAhood has "term limits".
I think the significance is they haven't had a fresh word from the Lord in many, many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Of course, when I was in the Local Church Movement, we weren't allowed to ask questions so I suppose I can't expect a straight answer on any of this from Ron Kangas or Drake or Evangelical. But, I can't stop myself from seeing the apparent contradictions.
It is pretty obvious really, look at a ? see how crooked it is. It even looks like a snake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
So, Drake do you suppose I'll be in trouble at the judgment seat for asking too many questions? Witness Lee said questions were serpents like the devil. But Jesus asked a lot of questions. Who should I follow?
Finally, an easy question -- Jesus
11-11-2017 04:21 AM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

If by "cult" you mean a religious group held together by a dominant, often charismatic individual then Lee's church is a cult. If membership is contingent upon acceptance of Nee and Lee as MOTAs, then members must be "cultists" to belong. And, by retaining Nee and Lee as the "ministers of the age" the LSM has cemented the Local Churches as a cult of Nee and Lee.

I'm curious about Kangas' proposition that both Nee and Lee are ministers of the present age. When I participated in the Local Church Movement, the leaders discouraged us from reading Nee's books, saying that we should only ingest the up-to-date ministry of Witness Lee. Now both Nee and Lee are MOTAs of the "present age." Previously the principle was that there could only be one MOTA per age. Now you've got two? Doesn't having two violate the principle?

And doesn't dying end the age of one's MOTAhood? Kangas mocked the Lutherans for their continuing reverence for MOTA Martin Luther 500 years later. But, the LSM's continued reverence of the Nee and Lee MOTAhood raises the question whether MOTAhood has "term limits".

Of course, when I was in the Local Church Movement, we weren't allowed to ask questions so I suppose I can't expect a straight answer on any of this from Ron Kangas or Drake or Evangelical. But, I can't stop myself from seeing the apparent contradictions.

So, Drake do you suppose I'll be in trouble at the judgment seat for asking too many questions? Witness Lee said questions were serpents like the devil. But Jesus asked a lot of questions. Who should I follow?
11-10-2017 10:12 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT, . . .
. . .I offer the advice that you consider carefully before the Lord before referring to brothers and sisters who have placed their lives in Him as cultists.
Unless LofT, it's true. Then you're in the clear. Then the cultists have something to answer for. And since God favors truth the odds are in your favor. And mine ... thank God ... I know for sure the LC is a cult.
11-10-2017 10:36 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I know.

I finally found an opportunity to agree with Drake.
Ha, I understand! I agreed with him awhile back when OGOP was going to meet the elder- feels good doesn't it.
11-10-2017 10:36 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
I've never called members of the Local Church cultists, actually quite the opposite.
I have referred to Witness Lee as a false prophet, and to certain ones as "the fruit of a false prophet". However, my understanding of "false prophet" is generally quite different from most people.

I do not think that a "false prophet" is not a real prophet. Instead, I consider Judas and Balaam as the two key examples of a false prophet. Both were real prophets, truly representing God and speaking His word accurately.

But both were also false, pretending to be holy men of God when in reality they were quite motivated by money.

(I have argued that the term "cult" is not biblical, too vague, and based on the definition could be applied to the early church.)
11-10-2017 09:43 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
I've never called members of the Local Church cultists, actually quite the opposite.
I know.

I finally found an opportunity to agree with Drake.
11-10-2017 09:25 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I agree with this. In fact, I disagree with all broadbrush mischaracterizations. There are too many precious children of God involved. We should critique the many LC's for failures and errors at some publishing house in Anaheim.

Instead we should identify teachings and behaviors which hurt the children of God. This is the role of shepherding and oversight.

This is the boundary I have endeavored to limit my posts to.
I've never called members of the Local Church cultists, actually quite the opposite.
11-10-2017 08:43 AM
UntoHim
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
When posters here refer to the “sinful disorders “ that occurred, it is the equivalent of putting those flyers on the windshield of cars....
Nah, not even close. But many of us on this forum are doing something similar to what those saints who were crying out for repentance and turn to righteousness from the man who claimed to have The Vision of the Age, The Ministry of the Age and the authority of The Minister of the Age. Witness Lee's response? "Nobody's perfect!" and "That Lee! Lee has to be famous! Lee! Lee! Lee must have the credit! And if you listen to me, you do not listen to Lee, you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me" and "I don’t care for the loss of any church. Even if the entire U. S. A. is closed to me I don’t care".

TO THIS VERY DAY many people, including you Drake, are promoting Witness Lee as the only person who spoke as God's oracle on earth since 1945. You promote his writings as "The Ministry of the Age". Some of us know different. Some of us know the history you'd like to hide from the public and unsuspecting "new ones". Sorry if this upsets you. You are here on this forum practicing the ole Local Church tried and true method of shooting the messengers. No problem. But always, always remember that we have the kryptonite to your bullets....THE TRUTH.

-
11-10-2017 08:41 AM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT,

We each will be judged at the Lords Bema according to our works and conduct. There will be no appeal to what others did or did not do. You will be judged according to what you did and did not do, not what Witness Lee or Drake did and did not do.

You often mention that you are praying for me. I appreciate that. In return I offer the advice that you consider carefully before the Lord before referring to brothers and sisters who have placed their lives in Him as cultists. Not for my benefit, or theirs, but for yours before the Lord in that day which I hope will be. day of reward and rejoicing for you too.

Drake
Of more immediate concern, Witness Lee and his minions have a history of suing people for calling his organization a cult. So, you better watch out. Right Drake?
11-10-2017 08:19 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
And yet..... Brother John Ingalls said in the same breath with above:

Before the conference began a report came to us that a flyer had been printed and would be placed on the windshields of all the cars of those attending the conference in Pasadena. On the flyer, we were told, some sinful disorders were mentioned. We fully disapproved of such action. Not knowing who authorized or printed them or who intended to distribute them, but knowing a couple of brothers who we thought might be aware of it, we called them and urged them to do whatever they could to stop the distribution. It seems that our word was heeded, at least to some extent, for no flyers were distributed at the conference. We discovered later, however, that they were put on some cars in the Anaheim meeting hall parking lot. Such acts we believe to be of the flesh and not the way to protest wrongdoing. Some time later, after the conference, we obtained a copy of the flyer. It was entitled Significant Dates in the History of the Church in Anaheim.”

When posters here refer to the “sinful disorders “ that occurred, it is the equivalent of putting those flyers on the windshield of cars.... rather it is worse as is it like spray painting the content of the flyer on someone’s windshield... and in the words of Brother John it is an act of the flesh. It is even more disturbing that posters who commit these acts of the flesh will invoke Brother Johns name in total disregard and disrespect for his feelings against those flyers and his vocal objection to that way of protesting wrongdoing.

Those are my two objections.

Drake
I think you have hit on a very crucial topic for this forum. What is the scriptural, appropriate way to protest wrongdoing?

Abel protested Cain when his blood spoke to the Lord.

Moses protested Pharoah's rule when he asked for permission for the children of Israel to go and make a sacrifice to God. Pharaoh continually told Moses that he was doing it wrong, if you do it this way or that way it would be acceptable.

The Jewish leaders told the Apostle's that they were doing it wrong:

16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.

18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.


It got so bad they were imprisoned for "stirring up the people", etc.

When Herod killed James "it pleased the Jews"! The same people who say our preaching of the gospel is wrong, fleshly, etc. are the same ones who are pleased by the killing of James?

Apparently so, because these "devout" Jews so concerned with the proper way to protest sin plot and vow to kill Paul.

They accused Paul of being a "pestilent fellow". Apparently Paul the "MOTA" by LSM's reckoning was also doing it wrong.

So then, what is the "proper" way to protest sin? (BTW you still haven't critiqued by conversation with Ed Marks explaining why that was improper and deserved being expelled by the church eldership?)
11-10-2017 08:04 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
In return I offer the advice that you consider carefully before the Lord before referring to brothers and sisters who have placed their lives in Him as cultists.

Drake
I agree with this. In fact, I disagree with all broadbrush mischaracterizations. There are too many precious children of God involved. We should critique the many LC's for failures and errors at some publishing house in Anaheim.

Instead we should identify teachings and behaviors which hurt the children of God. This is the role of shepherding and oversight.

This is the boundary I have endeavored to limit my posts to.
11-10-2017 07:29 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT,

We each will be judged at the Lords Bema according to our works and conduct. There will be no appeal to what others did or did not do. You will be judged according to what you did and did not do, not what Witness Lee or Drake did and did not do.

You often mention that you are praying for me. I appreciate that. In return I offer the advice that you consider carefully before the Lord before referring to brothers and sisters who have placed their lives in Him as cultists. Not for my benefit, or theirs, but for yours before the Lord in that day which I hope will be. day of reward and rejoicing for you too.

Drake
It sounds like you've misinterpreted my heart. Nonetheless, your point is well received.

To students, parents, those "seeking", to those within the church of Witness Lee, I do not condemn you, but instead offer myself as a servant to you. I love you as one created by God and hope for you to know Jesus and live in close relation to your Savior and creator. I don't claim to be the keeper of all truth, but warn you of those men who do make this claim.

Either Witness Lee is who he says he was, or he isn't. The claims that he makes are directly correlated to this. Does this mean that everything the man said was a false teaching? By no means. But he has built a church based on falsehood and deception. I have had no personal negative impact from the church of Witness Lee, no wounds, no scars. But others..many...have. I have seen this in the lives of people first hand.

I make this warning in love, not to berate. Step away from the spirit of fear and confusion to the Spirit of Truth, love, and acceptance.
11-10-2017 07:12 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
It would be a disservice not to warn people about this cult movement. I'm sorry if you feel I have berated you.
Seek the truth Drake. If my conduct has been berating, I'd hate to see what you'd say about Witness Lee if you were able to remove your Lee framed glasses.
LofT,

We each will be judged at the Lords Bema according to our works and conduct. There will be no appeal to what others did or did not do. You will be judged according to what you did and did not do, not what Witness Lee or Drake did and did not do.

You often mention that you are praying for me. I appreciate that. In return I offer the advice that you consider carefully before the Lord before referring to brothers and sisters who have placed their lives in Him as cultists. Not for my benefit, or theirs, but for yours before the Lord in that day which I hope will be. day of reward and rejoicing for you too.

Drake
11-10-2017 07:07 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
When posters here refer to the “sinful disorders “ that occurred, it is the equivalent of putting those flyers on the windshield of cars.... rather it is worse as is it like spray painting the content of the flyer on someone’s windshield... and in the words of Brother John it is an act of the flesh. It is even more disturbing that posters who commit these acts of the flesh will invoke Brother Johns name in total disregard and disrespect for his feelings against those flyers and his vocal objection to that way of protesting wrongdoing.

Those are my two objections.

Drake
Then I am sure, Drake, that you were jumping up and down in protest during those public meetings (with Ingalls et. al. absent, of course) when Lee was excoriating these supposed leprous and conspiratorial rebels.

No? I didn't think so.
11-10-2017 07:02 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
It would be a disservice not to warn people about this cult movement. I'm sorry if you feel I have berated you.

Seek the truth Drake.
Drake loves to talk about the so-called proper "standing" and the proper "name" of the church, but never the actual "condition" of those ministering to the church.

Drake loves to talk about the strange, unorthodox, and aberrant teachings of Witness Lee, but never discuss the unrighteous, abusive, and criminal behavior at LSM.

Drake's approach is so polar opposite the Biblical record, which stresses the upright living (i.e. conscience void of offense) of the Apostles, as the basis for their teachings. Why is it that Paul mentions and stresses his godly manner of living in nearly every epistle he writes, yet LSMers reject every attempt to shine a light on the despicable actions taken by their ministry and its operatives.

Yet how they love to expose the flaws of ministers in Christianity.
11-10-2017 06:55 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Since we're quoting from Speaking the Truth in Love I thought I would bring back a few of these little diddies:

"That Lee! Lee has to be famous! Lee! Lee! Lee must have the credit! And if you listen to me,
you do not listen to Lee, you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me.
"

And then he said that since 1945 he has been watching to see if anyone else could speak God’s word as God’s oracle. He could find none.

"Whether you are for me or not, I know; I know everything. I know what restaurant you were eating in,
what day, and with whom. I have a lot of colleagues who write me long records of ten to twenty pages about you.
"


"I don’t care for the loss of any church. Even if the entire U. S. A. is closed to me I don’t care.
I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth.
"

Apparently the scales had finally fallen off of the eyes of dear brother Ingalls. He finally saw Witness Lee for who he really was. At a later date John admitted that a number of older brothers from Lee's earlier days in China and Taiwan had warned him about this side of Lee - the REAL Witness Lee. Better late than never, brother John, better late than never........

"Now I would ask, are these the words of a sober man, the words of a spiritual man, a man of God? To me it is shocking to hear him speak this way, for he has indeed been used of God in the past to speak His Word. But to vindicate oneself so blatantly and boastfully indicates to me a fall. May the Lord have mercy on us all."
-
And yet..... Brother John Ingalls said in the same breath with above:

Before the conference began a report came to us that a flyer had been printed and would be placed on the windshields of all the cars of those attending the conference in Pasadena. On the flyer, we were told, some sinful disorders were mentioned. We fully disapproved of such action. Not knowing who authorized or printed them or who intended to distribute them, but knowing a couple of brothers who we thought might be aware of it, we called them and urged them to do whatever they could to stop the distribution. It seems that our word was heeded, at least to some extent, for no flyers were distributed at the conference. We discovered later, however, that they were put on some cars in the Anaheim meeting hall parking lot. Such acts we believe to be of the flesh and not the way to protest wrongdoing. Some time later, after the conference, we obtained a copy of the flyer. It was entitled Significant Dates in the History of the Church in Anaheim.”

When posters here refer to the “sinful disorders “ that occurred, it is the equivalent of putting those flyers on the windshield of cars.... rather it is worse as is it like spray painting the content of the flyer on someone’s windshield... and in the words of Brother John it is an act of the flesh. It is even more disturbing that posters who commit these acts of the flesh will invoke Brother Johns name in total disregard and disrespect for his feelings against those flyers and his vocal objection to that way of protesting wrongdoing.

Those are my two objections.

Drake
11-10-2017 06:39 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Super. The brothers and sisters in the local churches are following their conscience and convictions also. Allow them the same liberty and support. Thanks
It would be a disservice not to warn people about this cult movement. I'm sorry if you feel I have berated you.

Seek the truth Drake. If my conduct has been berating, I'd hate to see what you'd say about Witness Lee if you were able to remove your Lee framed glasses.
11-09-2017 09:03 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
My mom was Catholic and became a believer, same with my uncle. I still have family members that claim to be Catholic. I do not berate them.
Why would I berate them for that decision? It would sadden me, and hopefully I would pray for them.
Super.

The brothers and sisters in the local churches are following their conscience and convictions also. Allow them the same liberty and support.

Thanks
Drake
11-09-2017 08:18 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
In addition to John's book there were other events that corroborated his account. For example, after the elders in Anaheim were replaced the new elders wrote an apology to Phillip Lee. This apology seems, on the face of it, to be exceedingly insulting to all those who were directly harmed by Phillip Lee and to all those who were offended by his actions. One of the signatories was Ed Marks....
Funny how Ed Marks got the aging NYC elders to protect him from a "light shining in a dark place."

We always found Ed Marks to be a little strange. He would constantly talk about loving and visiting the LC's, yet he never once visited my old LC, even though he grew up just a couple miles from our meeting hall. One time Ed was shopping on the street just one hundred feet from the meeting hall, and an elder spotted him. We used to pick his mom up and bring her to the video training so she could see Ed speak. Yet he never attempted to visit us. Like I said a little strange.
11-09-2017 07:48 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I believe this article answers it :
https://www.gotquestions.org/head-of-the-church.html
Yes, I do not see anything in that reference that indicates a need for the apostle Paul to be a "small h head" for the church.

Second you have changed my question into why does the church need leaders, not my question.

You said that Paul was the "small h head" of Christianity. Besides having no scriptural basis, and besides the fact that this is a ridiculous doctrine, it is also something that Paul and Peter both rejected in the clearest terms when others attempted similar things.
11-09-2017 05:55 PM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Jesus would be the Head (capital H).
Two heads= Two masters. Jesus said: "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
11-09-2017 05:07 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
3 Questions
But what function is Paul, a "small h head" performing?
Why does "Christianity" need two heads?
How many times in the book of Acts did Peter and Paul reject any attempt to elevate them to a status comparable to Jesus?
I believe this article answers it :

https://www.gotquestions.org/head-of-the-church.html

Why does wife need two heads?

1 Cor 11:3 ....the head of a wife is her husband

Why do churches need human leaders?

Church members are to follow Christ first and earthly leaders second, as those leaders emulate Christ (see 1 Corinthians 11:1 and 1 Peter 5:3–4). (Gotquestions.org)

Are all church leaders in an elevated position with Jesus?

Why God placed apostles first in the church? (1 Corinthians 12:28)
11-09-2017 03:54 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Since we're quoting from Speaking the Truth in Love I thought I would bring back a few of these little diddies:

"That Lee! Lee has to be famous! Lee! Lee! Lee must have the credit! And if you listen to me,
you do not listen to Lee, you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me.
"
-
11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
11-09-2017 03:48 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Jesus would be the Head (capital H).
So let me see if I understand. Paul is the small h head (founder and apostolic head of Christianity) Jesus is the capital H head?

Now Jesus has not left us, He indwells us. But Paul is no longer with us, he is with the Lord.

Jesus as head is practical, operating through every member, touching their conscience, enlightening their spirit. He is the comforter that guides us. I can see that Jesus is the head of the Body.

3 Questions

But what function is Paul, a "small h head" performing?

Why does "Christianity" need two heads?

How many times in the book of Acts did Peter and Paul reject any attempt to elevate them to a status comparable to Jesus?
11-09-2017 02:13 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
If Paul is "the founder and apostolic head of Christianity", what is Jesus?
Jesus would be the Head (capital H).
11-09-2017 10:20 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
"Whether you are for me or not, I know; I know everything. I know what restaurant you were eating in, what day, and with whom. I have a lot of colleagues who write me long records of ten to twenty pages about you."

He sounds horribly paranoid. Witness Lee had long sown seeds of suspicion into his loyal adherents, and now was reaping them.

After Lee's death, the Blendeds still cultivated this same system of "sleeper cells" around the country, constantly reporting back to headquarters, and waiting for specific coded language from the podium in order to spring into action.
11-09-2017 09:44 AM
UntoHim
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Since we're quoting from Speaking the Truth in Love I thought I would bring back a few of these little diddies:

"That Lee! Lee has to be famous! Lee! Lee! Lee must have the credit! And if you listen to me,
you do not listen to Lee, you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me.
"

And then he said that since 1945 he has been watching to see if anyone else could speak God’s word as God’s oracle. He could find none.

"Whether you are for me or not, I know; I know everything. I know what restaurant you were eating in,
what day, and with whom. I have a lot of colleagues who write me long records of ten to twenty pages about you.
"


"I don’t care for the loss of any church. Even if the entire U. S. A. is closed to me I don’t care.
I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth.
"

Apparently the scales had finally fallen off of the eyes of dear brother Ingalls. He finally saw Witness Lee for who he really was. At a later date John admitted that a number of older brothers from Lee's earlier days in China and Taiwan had warned him about this side of Lee - the REAL Witness Lee. Better late than never, brother John, better late than never........

"Now I would ask, are these the words of a sober man, the words of a spiritual man, a man of God? To me it is shocking to hear him speak this way, for he has indeed been used of God in the past to speak His Word. But to vindicate oneself so blatantly and boastfully indicates to me a fall. May the Lord have mercy on us all."
-
11-09-2017 08:02 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Do you remember this quote...

Beginning on the Lord’s Day, September 4th, and continuing in every Lord’s Day morning meeting for over a month, some of the saints in Anaheim interrupted the meeting with derogatory remarks concerning Brother Lee, even mentioning his name. Most all the saints, including ourselves, felt grieved over this, considering it to be out of place and not helping the situation. That the saints were outraged was evident; that their grievances were justifiable, we believed in major part they were; but the way they took was objectionable.

Drake
Dear Drake,

Does your quote above sound like it was written by someone who was currently masterminding a vast global conspiracy to overthrow the ministry of Witness Lee?

That, of course, was Lee's entire basis for the public meetings and books written against John Ingalls et.al.
11-09-2017 07:50 AM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Yes zeek, I am.

Do you remember this quote...

Beginning on the Lord’s Day, September 4th, and continuing in every Lord’s Day morning meeting for over a month, some of the saints in Anaheim interrupted the meeting with derogatory remarks concerning Brother Lee, even mentioning his name. Most all the saints, including ourselves, felt grieved over this, considering it to be out of place and not helping the situation. That the saints were outraged was evident; that their grievances were justifiable, we believed in major part they were; but the way they took was objectionable.

How do you think Brother John would have felt about the way he is used in this forum by some who take the very way that grieved him?

Drake
I'm not sure who on this forum you are referring to. You'd have to be more specific for me to respond. You were critical of the way John Ingalls handled the Phillip Lee affair. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of the Speaking the Truth in Love text where Ingalls goes into excruciating detail about how he responded to the matter.
11-09-2017 07:17 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Right LofT,

Not just any fellowship is fine. Your advice to someone seeking a place to meet is to look for certain things.... thereby, will they get the best care for spiritual growth. Of course if someone ultimately decides to reject your advice and become a Catholic you wouldn’t berate them for their decision.

Right?

Drake
My mom was Catholic and became a believer, same with my uncle. I still have family members that claim to be Catholic. I do not berate them.

Why would I berate them for that decision? It would sadden me, and hopefully I would pray for them.
11-09-2017 07:10 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Yes zeek, I am.

Do you remember this quote...

Beginning on the Lord’s Day, September 4th, and continuing in every Lord’s Day morning meeting for over a month, some of the saints in Anaheim interrupted the meeting with derogatory remarks concerning Brother Lee, even mentioning his name. Most all the saints, including ourselves, felt grieved over this, considering it to be out of place and not helping the situation. That the saints were outraged was evident; that their grievances were justifiable, we believed in major part they were; but the way they took was objectionable.

How do you think Brother John would have felt about the way he is used in this forum by some who take the very way that grieved him?

Drake
This is an excellent question, "what is the correct way for a believer to take?"

Let me share my personal experience and perhaps you can critique this approach.

In addition to John's book there were other events that corroborated his account. For example, after the elders in Anaheim were replaced the new elders wrote an apology to Phillip Lee. This apology seems, on the face of it, to be exceedingly insulting to all those who were directly harmed by Phillip Lee and to all those who were offended by his actions. One of the signatories was Ed Marks.

I have known Ed since the days he first came into the church in Houston. We were in Houston together for 3 years and then we both went to Irving and were there together for another 18 months. Also we both worked as trainers in the FTT (I was in Taipei, he was in Anaheim). So then, after reading about John's book on this forum, learning far more details about these events and then learning about this apology letter I heard that Ed was coming to NY to visit. This was the first chance I had to meet with him since learning these things. I met him at dinner Monday night, there was a small gathering at the meeting hall and we ate before the meeting. I went up to him privately, though his wife and a few others were also present at the table, and I asked him about the apology letter he signed.

To his credit he didn't attempt to justify it. However he did argue weakly that with PL's passing perhaps the discussion was in bad taste? He also indicated that his behavior was like the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" monkeys. This may have been due to an awareness of what is written about him on the internet. Finally, his last argument was "this made Witness Lee" happy. He then asked to see the copy of the letter I had printed out and what was quite interesting to me was he also wanted the envelope I had brought it in. Ed then left to confer with the elders in NY (Brother James and Brother Benjamin were both alive at that time). About 30 minutes later I was asked to leave the building and was told "he doesn't want to deal with this at this time". Now this took place more than 30 years after the PL incident and just about 30 years after the apology letter was dated. I considered his interest in the envelope to indicate that they would see if there were any other saints to be "disciplined" over this discussion.

So please explain to me why this approach by me was "grievous"?

How is it that an elder can say "he doesn't want to deal with this now" thirty years later, after so many have been offended, stumbled over this issue? How are you not grieved at that behavior?

Personally I wonder how this complaint will be received at the judgement seat of Christ -- "they did not complain about the sin properly, so I did nothing".
11-09-2017 07:02 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
I guess the answer is yes? I was responding to your question like I would if anyone asked me. I don't have all the answers, but I'm happy to walk through that process with you. Come be a part of my fellowship, I'll introduce you to my peeps. You don't live in my city? Well I'm not familiar with what is available where you live and your situation. Maybe your wife only understands Spanish and you need to fellowship (I'm changing my language from church to fellowship to help our brother Evangelical) with people she can understand.

I've seen a lot, I've moved around a lot. I'm always interested to help someone who is earnestly seeking the Lord. Let me know what I can do.
Right LofT,

Not just any fellowship is fine. Your advice to someone seeking a place to meet is to look for certain things.... thereby, will they get the best care for spiritual growth. Of course if someone ultimately decides to reject your advice and become a Catholic you wouldn’t berate them for their decision.

Right?

Drake
11-09-2017 06:44 AM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
To your question about justified in leaving, I would have advised the sisters and family members to get out of that situation, file charges, prosecute to the full extent of the law, and seek recompense.
So, would the abused, and those bothered by Witness Lee's coverup, be justified in leaving the Local Church movement?

Quote:
If Brother John Ingalls as the lead elder at Ball Rd did not do anything for ten years then why?

I’d like to know why the lead elder allowed criminal acts to be knowingly committed for a decade at Ball Rd. Please explain. You weren’t there but you seem to know everything about it so you can enlighten us and put it in public record forever. Tell us.... why?

Drake
Yes, they most certainly should have removed Philip Lee sooner, and also involved law enforcement. Unfortunately, they trusted Witness Lee to take care of it. And Witness Lee kept his son in place, despite the repeated, known cases of sexual misconduct, and expelled any leaders that dared to address it. Given his response, I'm sure he would have expelled them even sooner had they tried to do more.
11-09-2017 06:38 AM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Yes, that is a real scenario. Leave your talking points and address the scenario. Do you agree that the couple would have been justified in starting a local church meeting in the same city and if so why? If not , why not?

I will address you last question in response to your other post.

Drake
I agree that these leaders were wrong not to receive this couple--assuming the scenario played out as you described. In many other instances, this was not the situation. As we know, in various places in the Midwest, not following LSM became justification not just for new meetings, but for lawsuits over meeting halls.
11-09-2017 06:37 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Yes zeek, I am.

Do you remember this quote...

Beginning on the Lord’s Day, September 4th, and continuing in every Lord’s Day morning meeting for over a month, some of the saints in Anaheim interrupted the meeting with derogatory remarks concerning Brother Lee, even mentioning his name. Most all the saints, including ourselves, felt grieved over this, considering it to be out of place and not helping the situation. That the saints were outraged was evident; that their grievances were justifiable, we believed in major part they were; but the way they took was objectionable.

How do you think Brother John would have felt about the way he is used in this forum by some who take the very way that grieved him?

Drake
11-09-2017 06:05 AM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
To your question about justified in leaving, I would have advised the sisters and family members to get out of that situation, file charges, prosecute to the full extent of the law, and seek recompense. If Brother John Ingalls as the lead elder at Ball Rd did not do anything for ten years then why?

I’d like to know why the lead elder allowed criminal acts to be knowingly committed for a decade at Ball Rd. Please explain. You weren’t there but you seem to know everything about it so you can enlighten us and put it in public record forever. Tell us.... why?

Drake
Are you familiar with this text? http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?p=6020
11-09-2017 05:58 AM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Every place in the province where Christians are is our place also. The expression emphasizes the position of Paul as the founder and apostolic head of Christianity in Corinth and in all Achaia. (Vincent's Word Studies)
If Paul is "the founder and apostolic head of Christianity", what is Jesus?
11-09-2017 03:53 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
To your question about justified in leaving, I would have advised the sisters and family members to get out of that situation, file charges, prosecute to the full extent of the law, and seek recompense. If Brother John Ingalls as the lead elder at Ball Rd did not do anything for ten years then why?

I’d like to know why the lead elder allowed criminal acts to be knowingly committed for a decade at Ball Rd. Please explain. You weren’t there but you seem to know everything about it so you can enlighten us and put it in public record forever. Tell us.... why?

Drake
You keep saying "lead elder," but there were 5 elders in Anaheim and they were constantly overrun by that publishing house. Two of the elders constantly rejected unrighteousness and protected criminal activity.

Drake your hypocrisy is showing. When it comes to outsiders, then you appeal to Caesar, and use the law to the fullest extent, even to the SCOTUS. But when it comes to serious criminal activity, then you stress the other part of I Cor 6 about not going to the authorities, and keeping everything "in house." Why did W. Lee constantly assure the brothers that he "would take care of Philip?" Well ... He sure did!

The real "lead elder" in Anaheim was Witness Lee. Why didn't he call the police? Didn't he give a couple lengthy conferences on how the Kingdom of God is built on righteousness?

How do we know you weren't part of the crimes or the coverup?
11-09-2017 12:41 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
You ignored this part:

How about Witness Lee? Instead, he forced out two groups of his coworkers who discovered at different times that the manager of the ministry-of-the-age publishing house, his son, was groping sisters at 1853 W. Ball Road. The first was in the 1970s (Max Rapoport). The second was in the 1980s (John Ingalls). It was Witness Lee who led the cover-up, not John Ingalls. Then he concocted a "fermentation of the present rebellion" around anyone who dared mention it.



I wasn't there. What's your excuse?

Also, the reason why this is an issue is because it discredits two cherished LC concepts: 1) "minister of the age" and 2) "opposers/dissenters."
To your question about justified in leaving, I would have advised the sisters and family members to get out of that situation, file charges, prosecute to the full extent of the law, and seek recompense. If Brother John Ingalls as the lead elder at Ball Rd did not do anything for ten years then why?

I’d like to know why the lead elder allowed criminal acts to be knowingly committed for a decade at Ball Rd. Please explain. You weren’t there but you seem to know everything about it so you can enlighten us and put it in public record forever. Tell us.... why?

Drake
11-09-2017 12:31 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Is this a real scenario?

How about this one--

Various coworkers find the manager of the ministry-of-the-age publishing house, Witness Lee's son, sexually assaulting serving sisters at different times over a ten-year period. This is covered up by Witness Lee and some of those close to him. Anyone who raises the issue is expelled and labeled an "opposer" and "dissenter."

Would any person bothered by this (including those sisters sexually assaulted) be justified in leaving the Local Church movement?
Yes, that is a real scenario. Leave your talking points and address the scenario. Do you agree that the couple would have been justified in starting a local church meeting in the same city and if so why? If not , why not?

I will address your last question in response to your other post.

Drake
11-08-2017 09:13 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Why does Vincent have to endorse it. Even if he did it seems you would disagree with it, Professor O.
You're right, I would disagree.
11-08-2017 08:59 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Paul founded the church in Corinth and was their apostle, but he was not their "head," he made that quite clear to the church.

Since you cite Marvin Vincent, where does he endorse the concept of MOTA, the "acting God," the ground of oneness, or that man becomes God?

Embarrassing for you.
Why does Vincent have to endorse it. Even if he did it seems you would disagree with it, Professor O.
11-08-2017 08:44 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Well you are disagreeing with Vincent's Word Studies there. Embarrassing.

Marvin Richardson Vincent (1834-1922) was a Presbyterian minister, best known for his Word Studies in the New Testament. From 1888, he was professor of New Testament exegesis and criticism at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
1 Cor 1:2: to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, to [those] sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:

Here, the apostle is pointing their attention to the Christians in the locality (every place), to divert their attention away from the narrow factions that were present at Corinth.

Every place in the province where Christians are is our place also. The expression emphasizes the position of Paul as the founder and apostolic head of Christianity in Corinth and in all Achaia. (Vincent's Word Studies)
Paul founded the church in Corinth and was their apostle, but he was not their "head," he made that quite clear to the church.

Since you cite Marvin Vincent, where does he endorse the concept of MOTA, the "acting God," the ground of oneness, or that man becomes God?

Embarrassing for you.
11-08-2017 08:34 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Koinonia,

You have no idea what I am referring to. You color your world one way over and over and therefore cannot see any other hues.

How about this scenario.....

A couple move to a city where there was a local church but the brothers there no longer followed the ministry of Brother Lee. The couple not wanting to start another local church opened a dialogue with the elder of that local church to share their sincere desire to meet with them even though they no longer followed the ministry of Brother Lee. The couple also recognized that Brother Lees ministry was replaced by an opposing leading brother’s own ministry and speaking.

The couple would have been justified establishing a true local church in the same city.

Drake
Now we finally know Drake's unique definition of a true local church -- one in which Witness Lee's ministry is received and loved, and no other.

This is absolutely contrary to Nee's writing in TNCCL.
11-08-2017 08:28 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Drake, what a farce. You are right about one thing--someone should have called the police. How about Witness Lee? Instead, he forced out two groups of his coworkers who discovered at different times that the manager of the ministry-of-the-age publishing house, his son, was groping sisters at 1853 W. Ball Road. The first was in the 1970s (Max Rapoport). The second was in the 1980s (John Ingalls). It was Witness Lee who led the cover-up, not John Ingalls. Then he concocted a "fermentation of the present rebellion" around anyone who dared mention it.

Should the sisters assaulted by the MOTA's son leave the LC movement? Or should they stay? And don't misunderstand me, Drake--this is a question about the "ground of the church."
One senior brother at LSM walked into the Ball Road office of Philip Lee with a sister on his lap.

Apparently that was consensual.
11-08-2017 08:21 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Very good.

But, Drake, if your church were to stop following LSM, what would you do? If LSM coworkers were then to set up another meeting on the other side of town, where would you go?

And this is a legitimate question--because it has happened many times before.
It happened to the 3 LC's I was a part of.

I have first hand experience that convinces me that LSM cares nothing for oneness, or their so-called ground of oneness.

It is all just a smokescreen and a false standard used to uplift themselves and condemn all others.
11-08-2017 08:10 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The farce Koinonia is that you and others use Brother John Ingalls when you run out of anything convincing to say about a topic. Frankly, I think it is appalling that you use that disgusting situation as the basis of all your arguments regardless of the actual conversation. In the past, I wondered how one might identify an obsession but this forum has certainly helped to see obsession in all its pitiful wallowing.
Drake, thank you for finally admitting to us that you were aware of the corruption and unrighteousness at LSM. You were part of the problem, and never part of the solution.

The sordid, abusive and degenerate history of Timothy and Philip Lee, as bad as it was, is really not what troubled all the brothers, including me.

I suppose all of us are entitled to a bad child or two. Aye?

I give all politicians a pass for being liars and crooks, so I could do the same for W. Lee. What I can't overlook is treason, siding with the enemy to damage the family of God.

So, what troubled us was Lee's own behavior, and not just with Ingalls, but going back to China, Taiwan, and the US. The many and regular "storms" in the Recovery were never about persecution or rebellion, rather they were always used by W. Lee to silence those who spoke their conscience. Those over the years who stuck out their neck on behalf of righteousness in order to protect the children of God. In return, Lee and his cadre bore false witness against them via slander and libel. It worked pretty well until the internet came along. No wonder he hated it so much.

Drake, you are not responsible for what you don't know, but for what you do know. Shame on you for siding with unrighteousness.
11-08-2017 04:04 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Don’t read in, LofT.

If everyone in the local churches read your posts and a miracle happened and they all asked you where to meet then you provided the guidance. However, not every Christian denomination, nor the Catholic Church, matches your guidance.

Therefore, you are not embracing just any Christian denomination, rather with I assume good intent and for the benefit of those seeking you are recommending things to look for to provide the best recommendation for a place to meet.

Yes?

Drake
I guess the answer is yes? I was responding to your question like I would if anyone asked me. I don't have all the answers, but I'm happy to walk through that process with you. Come be a part of my fellowship, I'll introduce you to my peeps. You don't live in my city? Well I'm not familiar with what is available where you live and your situation. Maybe your wife only understands Spanish and you need to fellowship (I'm changing my language from church to fellowship to help our brother Evangelical) with people she can understand.

I've seen a lot, I've moved around a lot. I'm always interested to help someone who is earnestly seeking the Lord. Let me know what I can do.
11-08-2017 02:27 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Koinonia,

You have no idea what I am referring to. You color your world one way over and over and therefore cannot see any other hues.

How about this scenario.....

A couple move to a city where there was a local church but the brothers there no longer followed the ministry of Brother Lee. The couple not wanting to start another local church opened a dialogue with the elder of that local church to share their sincere desire to meet with them even though they no longer followed the ministry of Brother Lee. The couple also recognized that Brother Lees ministry was replaced by an opposing leading brother’s own ministry and speaking. Nevertheless, the couple said they wanted to meet anyway rather than start another local church in the same city. However, the couple would not be willing to throw away everything the Lord has shown them nor would they be silent about the nourishment they received from Brother Lees ministry and yet they would endeavor to fellowship in life and mutuality and receive in the same spirit from the brothers and sisters in that local church. The elder, his wife, and the couple agreed and felt this was a good arrangement. Then the elder said he needed to “check with the leading brothers in the lead church” and if the leading brothers in the lead church also agreed with the arrangement and were willing to receive the couple then he would notify the couple and they could start meeting together right away. Weeks passed, no call. Months passed, no call. The elder never called the couple to receive them into the fellowship. Obviously, the dissenting leading brothers did not agree with the elder.

The couple would have been justified establishing a true local church in the same city.

Drake
I'm not sure what your point is, but :

Lee and his LSM loyalists have ignored the one church one city way back in the 70s. When Lee had five localities migrate to Ft. Lauderdale, Bob Mumford had already taken the ground in the city of Ft. Lauderdale.

I remember it well. The Lee leaders were in a quandary. They went and met with Mumford. But Mumford wasn't aligned with Lee.

So what did they do? Well they went and declared that they were the church in Ft. Lauderdale anyway, ignoring their "Biblical ground principle."

I'm also sure others can tell of LSM aligned leaders taking the ground when it was already taken by nonaligned churches that had taken the ground.

Detroit, where Kangas was elder, had the ground back with Kangas. But after most, not all, saints migrated, they fell away from Lee. So now there's two churches on the ground in Detroit, one aligned with LSM and one not.

LSM is willy-nilly with the ground doctrine. They don't really hold to it. They care more about their top down organization than their ground rule.
11-08-2017 02:13 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Koinonia,

You have no idea what I am referring to. You color your world one way over and over and therefore cannot see any other hues.

How about this scenario.....

A couple move to a city where there was a local church but the brothers there no longer followed the ministry of Brother Lee. The couple not wanting to start another local church opened a dialogue with the elder of that local church to share their sincere desire to meet with them even though they no longer followed the ministry of Brother Lee. The couple also recognized that Brother Lees ministry was replaced by an opposing leading brother’s own ministry and speaking. Nevertheless, the couple said they wanted to meet anyway rather than start another local church in the same city. However, the couple would not be willing to throw away everything the Lord has shown them nor would they be silent about the nourishment they received from Brother Lees ministry and yet they would endeavor to fellowship in life and mutuality and receive in the same spirit from the brothers and sisters in that local church. The elder, his wife, and the couple agreed and felt this was a good arrangement. Then the elder said he needed to “check with the leading brothers in the lead church” and if the leading brothers in the lead church also agreed with the arrangement and were willing to receive the couple then he would notify the couple and they could start meeting together right away. Weeks passed, no call. Months passed, no call. The elder never called the couple to receive them into the fellowship. Obviously, the dissenting leading brothers did not agree with the elder.

The couple would have been justified establishing a true local church in the same city.

Drake
Is this a real scenario?

How about this one--

Various coworkers find the manager of the ministry-of-the-age publishing house, Witness Lee's son, sexually assaulting serving sisters at different times over a ten-year period. This is covered up by Witness Lee and some of those close to him. Anyone who raises the issue is expelled and labeled an "opposer" and "dissenter."

Would any person bothered by this (including those sisters sexually assaulted) be justified in leaving the Local Church movement?
11-08-2017 02:10 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Koinonia>”Drake, what a farce. You are right about one thing--someone should have called the police”

So then, why did John Ingalls tolerate criminal activity for a decade? What are the possible explanations for that?
You ignored this part:

How about Witness Lee? Instead, he forced out two groups of his coworkers who discovered at different times that the manager of the ministry-of-the-age publishing house, his son, was groping sisters at 1853 W. Ball Road. The first was in the 1970s (Max Rapoport). The second was in the 1980s (John Ingalls). It was Witness Lee who led the cover-up, not John Ingalls. Then he concocted a "fermentation of the present rebellion" around anyone who dared mention it.

Quote:
The farce Koinonia is that you and others use Brother John Ingalls when you run out of anything convincing to say about a topic. Frankly, I think it is appalling that you use that disgusting situation as the basis of all your arguments regardless of the actual conversation. In the past, I wondered how one might identify an obsession but this forum has certainly helped to see obsession in all its pitiful wallowing.

By the way, why didn’t you call the police?
I wasn't there. What's your excuse?

Also, the reason why this is an issue is because it discredits two cherished LC concepts: 1) "minister of the age" and 2) "opposers/dissenters."
11-08-2017 02:06 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Is it a problem to have multiple assemblies in a given locality meeting on the ground of locality, but not having fellowship with each other?
Yes is a problem I think. Should come together sometimes eg once a month.
11-08-2017 01:58 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
I know this is difficult for you. But try to go off script.

So I'm asking you how to find fellowship, but I called it a church. How do I find fellowship?
I would pray and ask God to provide Christian fellowship, and then wait for the result. The Bible does not provide any guidance on how to "find fellowship", it does however record people who were led by God to a certain fellowship.
11-08-2017 01:57 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Koinonia>”Drake, what a farce. You are right about one thing--someone should have called the police”

So then, why did John Ingalls tolerate criminal activity for a decade? What are the possible explanations for that?

The farce Koinonia is that you and others use Brother John Ingalls when you run out of anything convincing to say about a topic. Frankly, I think it is appalling that you use that disgusting situation as the basis of all your arguments regardless of the actual conversation. In the past, I wondered how one might identify an obsession but this forum has certainly helped to see obsession in all its pitiful wallowing.

By the way, why didn’t you call the police?

Drake
11-08-2017 01:53 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Biblical pattern? Not really. Not in Rome. For one place.

Once again, you condemn every other congregation as some dreaded "denomination," yet not your own?

Paul is the "head of Christianity?" I don't think so.
Well you are disagreeing with Vincent's Word Studies there. Embarrassing.

Marvin Richardson Vincent (1834-1922) was a Presbyterian minister, best known for his Word Studies in the New Testament. From 1888, he was professor of New Testament exegesis and criticism at Union Theological Seminary, New York City.
11-08-2017 01:42 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Your post is yet another demonstration of the classic leap from "ground of the church" to "minister of the age." LC members start by defending one and then somehow leap to the other. It is a total contradiction of belief.
Koinonia,

You have no idea what I am referring to. You color your world one way over and over and therefore cannot see any other hues.

How about this scenario.....

A couple move to a city where there was a local church but the brothers there no longer followed the ministry of Brother Lee. The couple not wanting to start another local church opened a dialogue with the elder of that local church to share their sincere desire to meet with them even though they no longer followed the ministry of Brother Lee. The couple also recognized that Brother Lees ministry was replaced by an opposing leading brother’s own ministry and speaking. Nevertheless, the couple said they wanted to meet anyway rather than start another local church in the same city. However, the couple would not be willing to throw away everything the Lord has shown them nor would they be silent about the nourishment they received from Brother Lees ministry and yet they would endeavor to fellowship in life and mutuality and receive in the same spirit from the brothers and sisters in that local church. The elder, his wife, and the couple agreed and felt this was a good arrangement. Then the elder said he needed to “check with the leading brothers in the lead church” and if the leading brothers in the lead church also agreed with the arrangement and were willing to receive the couple then he would notify the couple and they could start meeting together right away. Weeks passed, no call. Months passed, no call. The elder never called the couple to receive them into the fellowship. Obviously, the dissenting leading brothers did not agree with the elder.

The couple would have been justified establishing a true local church in the same city.

Drake
11-08-2017 01:29 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Don’t hide behind Brother John Ingalls. You and others conveniently use him to distract from the present conversation.

Here is some straight talk since you brought him up: John Ingalls should have called the police. He was the leading elder where this assault occurred. He tolerated criminal activity for a decade?

Drake
Drake, what a farce. You are right about one thing--someone should have called the police. How about Witness Lee? Instead, he forced out two groups of his coworkers who discovered at different times that the manager of the ministry-of-the-age publishing house, his son, was groping sisters at 1853 W. Ball Road. The first was in the 1970s (Max Rapoport). The second was in the 1980s (John Ingalls). It was Witness Lee who led the cover-up, not John Ingalls. Then he concocted a "fermentation of the present rebellion" around anyone who dared mention it.

Should the sisters assaulted by the MOTA's son leave the LC movement? Or should they stay? And don't misunderstand me, Drake--this is a question about the "ground of the church."
11-08-2017 12:57 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Once again, you condemn every other congregation as some dreaded "denomination," yet not your own?
I have heard no sound argument to refute why everyone else is a denomination, but not the local churches. Exact as the local churches speak, there are many fellowship of churches that regard as everyone else as denominations but not themselves. You have Exclusive Brethren, Iglesia Ni Christo, International Church of Christ, etc.
Rebuttals please.
11-08-2017 12:54 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
John Ingalls, for example, could not abide the decade-long cover-up of sexual assault in the LSM office.
Don’t hide behind Brother John Ingalls. You and others conveniently use him to distract from the present conversation.

Here is some straight talk since you brought him up: John Ingalls should have called the police. He was the leading elder where this assault occurred. He tolerated criminal activity for a decade?

Drake
11-08-2017 12:39 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I think the ground of locality is a very biblical pattern, for example this verse says every place, not every denomination:

1 Cor 1:2:
to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, to [those] sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:

Here, the apostle is pointing their attention to the Christians in the locality (every place), to divert their attention away from the narrow factions that were present at Corinth.

Every place in the province where Christians are is our place also. The expression emphasizes the position of Paul as the founder and apostolic head of Christianity in Corinth and in all Achaia. (Vincent's Word Studies)
Is it a problem to have multiple assemblies in a given locality meeting on the ground of locality, but not having fellowship with each other?
11-08-2017 12:37 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I will endeavor to follow what the Lord has shown me whether there is an LSM publishing business or not. That also means that if a brother rejects the ministry of life I have received then I will not receive that ones teaching. It also means if someone wants to do their thing then I will not follow them. Most of the time the real issue with opposers and dissenters is not that I follow Brother Nee and Brother Lees ministry, it’s that I refuse to follow theirs.

Drake
Your post is yet another demonstration of the classic leap from "ground of the church" to "minister of the age." LC members start by defending one and then somehow leap to the other. It is a total contradiction of belief.
11-08-2017 12:36 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I will endeavor to follow what the Lord has shown me whether there is an LSM publishing business or not. That also means that if a brother rejects the ministry of life I have received then I will not receive that ones teaching. It also means if someone wants to do their thing then I will not follow them. Most of the time the real issue with opposers and dissenters is not that I follow Brother Nee and Brother Lees ministry, it’s that I refuse to follow theirs.

Drake
This is slander against brothers who chose to follow their conscience.

John Ingalls, for example, could not abide the decade-long cover-up of sexual assault in the LSM office. He also disagreed with the Elders Training loyalty pledge to Witness Lee and the increasing interference of LSM in church affairs.

Do these make Ingalls an "opposer" and "dissenter"?
11-08-2017 12:22 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Very good.

But, Drake, if your church were to stop following LSM, what would you do? If LSM coworkers were then to set up another meeting on the other side of town, where would you go?

And this is a legitimate question--because it has happened many times before.
I will endeavor to follow what the Lord has shown me whether there is an LSM publishing business or not. That also means that if a brother rejects the ministry of life I have received then I will not receive that ones teaching. It also means if someone wants to do their thing then I will not follow them. Most of the time the real issue with opposers and dissenters is not that I follow Brother Nee and Brother Lees ministry, it’s that I refuse to follow theirs.

Drake
11-08-2017 12:04 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
It is for me, Koinonia.

Drake
Very good.

But, Drake, if your church were to stop following LSM, what would you do? If LSM coworkers were then to set up another meeting on the other side of town, where would you go?

And this is a legitimate question--because it has happened many times before.
11-08-2017 11:52 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
If only that were the basis, Drake.
It is for me, Koinonia.

Drake
11-08-2017 11:43 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here... Like a said, PM me and I'd be happy to help you find a new church.
Don’t read in, LofT.

If everyone in the local churches read your posts and a miracle happened and they all asked you where to meet then you provided the guidance. However, not every Christian denomination, nor the Catholic Church, matches your guidance.

Therefore, you are not embracing just any Christian denomination, rather with I assume good intent and for the benefit of those seeking you are recommending things to look for to provide the best recommendation for a place to meet.

Yes?

Drake
11-08-2017 11:21 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT

There are many denominations that do not fit your criterion. Neither does the Catholic Church.

So exclude those and anything else will do?

Drake
Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here... Like a said, PM me and I'd be happy to help you find a new church.
11-08-2017 11:16 AM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Interesting.

If that is what you believe then you never really saw or understood the truth concerning Gods purpose of the ages and our basis for meeting accordingly.

Drake
If only that were the basis, Drake.
11-08-2017 10:57 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Are you asking for a "friend" ? I'd be happy to talk through it - send me a private message.

The first thing to keep in mind is that there is no perfect church. If a church claims (directly or indirectly) that they are the true church or even the BEST church - find another church. Search for a church that is theologically sound and has a deep desire to teach and live out the gospel according to scripture. This includes sound doctrine and biblical authority. Find a church that places an emphasis on Christian fellowship, community, and transparent relationships that allow for Christian relationship, spiritual growth, and discipleship. Find a church with a heart for its "locality". How is is serving, loving, and sharing truth with its neighbors. Find a church that has a heart for "going and making disciples of all nations". This is by no means an exhaustive list, but a quick attempt to respond. You see something that needs to change or could be done better - raise your hand, take action, and help.

Having moved around quite a bit, I've found this is small house churches and in mega churches. I guess there are other very practical suggestions since you mentioned "locality". I don't really understand what locality means...Google tells me it means, "a place, spot, or district, with or without reference to things or persons in it or to occurrences there".

If you happen to find a church of Witness Lee in your "locality", move along. If there is not.... one less landmine to worry about.
LofT

There are many denominations that do not fit your criterion. Neither does the Catholic Church.

So exclude those and anything else will do?

Drake
11-08-2017 10:48 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
The Bible doesn't talk about "ministry of the age" either. Yet, that is the basis of your gathering.
Interesting.

If that is what you believe then you never really saw or understood the truth concerning Gods purpose of the ages and our basis for meeting accordingly.

Drake
11-08-2017 06:17 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
They don't need a church for that. They can fellowship anywhere and seek the kingdom does not mean seek a church. A person may not necessarily find fellowship in a church. For example, for 5 years I fellowshipped in a shop, not a church. So I would not tell someone to find a shop or a church, I'd tell them to find fellowship.

Like I said before, the Bible never says to "find a church". It says find fellowship.
I know this is difficult for you. But try to go off script.

So I'm asking you how to find fellowship, but I called it a church. How do I find fellowship?
11-08-2017 03:43 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I think the ground of locality is a very biblical pattern, for example this verse says every place, not every denomination:

1 Cor 1:2:
to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, to [those] sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:

Here, the apostle is pointing their attention to the Christians in the locality (every place), to divert their attention away from the narrow factions that were present at Corinth.

Every place in the province where Christians are is our place also. The expression emphasizes the position of Paul as the founder and apostolic head of Christianity in Corinth and in all Achaia. (Vincent's Word Studies)
Biblical pattern? Not really. Not in Rome. For one place.

Once again, you condemn every other congregation as some dreaded "denomination," yet not your own?

Paul is the "head of Christianity?" I don't think so.
11-07-2017 08:47 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Wrong!

This forum is filled with refutations of Lee's teachings that are NOT from the Bible, like the MOTA and the false ground of locality.
I think the ground of locality is a very biblical pattern, for example this verse says every place, not every denomination:

1 Cor 1:2:
to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, to [those] sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:

Here, the apostle is pointing their attention to the Christians in the locality (every place), to divert their attention away from the narrow factions that were present at Corinth.

Every place in the province where Christians are is our place also. The expression emphasizes the position of Paul as the founder and apostolic head of Christianity in Corinth and in all Achaia. (Vincent's Word Studies)
11-07-2017 08:20 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Yes. Everything from Witness Lee is from the Bible . But Lee taught it, I learnt it from him. Actually, Watchman Nee first. But in the bible it is not obvious. The English Bible mangles the definition of church in the translation. Some people like Nee/Lee need to explain it.
Wrong!

This forum is filled with refutations of Lee's teachings that are NOT from the Bible, like the MOTA and the false ground of locality.
11-07-2017 07:21 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Yes. Everything from Witness Lee is from the Bible . But Lee taught it, I learnt it from him. Actually, Watchman Nee first. But in the bible it is not obvious. The English Bible mangles the definition of church in the translation. Some people like Nee/Lee need to explain it.
How very sad.
11-07-2017 07:11 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Mat 18:20* For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.*
11-07-2017 06:59 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
No, it is from the Bible.
Yes. Everything from Witness Lee is from the Bible . But Lee taught it, I learnt it from him. Actually, Watchman Nee first. But in the bible it is not obvious. The English Bible mangles the definition of church in the translation. Some people like Nee/Lee need to explain it.
11-07-2017 06:55 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I'm not sure what you mean. I believe church is simply a gathering of believers or "called out" ones. That is from Witness Lee.
No, it is from the Bible.
11-07-2017 06:51 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised. From what you said, either:
  1. You still think "church" is a building; or
  2. You are not deeply into LC's "live the church life" practices

Either way, it means you are not yet absolute to LC's teachings. That is a good sign.
I'm not sure what you mean. I believe church is simply a gathering of believers or "called out" ones. That is from Witness Lee.
11-07-2017 06:31 PM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
They don't need a church for that. They can fellowship anywhere and seek the kingdom does not mean seek a church. A person may not necessarily find fellowship in a church. For example, for 5 years I fellowshipped in a shop, not a church. So I would not tell someone to find a shop or a church, I'd tell them to find fellowship.

Like I said before, the Bible never says to "find a church". It says find fellowship.
Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised. From what you said, either:
  1. You still think "church" is a building; or
  2. You are not deeply into LC's "live the church life" practices

Either way, it means you are not yet absolute to LC's teachings. That is a good sign.
11-07-2017 06:15 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
That is your response to one of God's children seeking the kingdom and a fellowship of believers? Tell them that God doesn't want them to find a church?

Also, I don't remember hearing "go where the Lord leads" during my time with the Lord's Recovery.
They don't need a church for that. They can fellowship anywhere and seek the kingdom does not mean seek a church. A person may not necessarily find fellowship in a church. For example, for 5 years I fellowshipped in a shop, not a church. So I would not tell someone to find a shop or a church, I'd tell them to find fellowship.

Like I said before, the Bible never says to "find a church". It says find fellowship.
11-07-2017 06:05 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Sorry I can't really answer that because I don't believe finding a church as such is necessarily something God wants us to do and any advice would interfere. I was raised to believe that you go to the denomination of your parents/grandparents/great grandparents. I think that is a very old fashioned belief today. But I think all believers are the church so now fellowship with any believer is sufficient for me. Go where the Lord leads is the often heard saying in the local church.
That is your response to one of God's children seeking the kingdom and a fellowship of believers? Tell them that God doesn't want them to find a church?

Also, I don't remember hearing "go where the Lord leads" during my time with the Lord's Recovery.
11-07-2017 05:29 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Sorry I can't really answer that because I don't believe finding a church as such is necessarily something God wants us to do and any advice would interfere. I was raised to believe that you go to the denomination of your parents/grandparents/great grandparents. I think that is a very old fashioned belief today. But I think all believers are the church so now fellowship with any believer is sufficient for me. Go where the Lord leads is the often heard saying in the local church.
If you really want the God and Father of Lord Jesus Christ to be blessed you would be a testimony of the resurrected Christ. That is the hope that we have according to God's abundant mercy. A testimony to the one who walks in the midst of the seven golden lamp stands, the one who is holy and true, the faithful and true witness.
11-07-2017 04:37 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
No one said anything about how the church makes you feel, youth programs, social activities, etc.

Feel free to start a new thread on the Evangelical approved method of finding a church. To piggy back off Drake, Imagine I became convinced overnight that my local church is not the Lords desire after all.... what do I do? How do I find a church?
Sorry I can't really answer that because I don't believe finding a church as such is necessarily something God wants us to do and any advice would interfere. I was raised to believe that you go to the denomination of your parents/grandparents/great grandparents. I think that is a very old fashioned belief today. But I think all believers are the church so now fellowship with any believer is sufficient for me. Go where the Lord leads is the often heard saying in the local church.
11-07-2017 03:58 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The Bible seems to give no advice about "finding a church". Why is that? (we all no why, just don't say it too loudly). In fact, there is no example in the Bible of a person looking for a church as opposed to the church. So finding a church invariably settles on finding one that makes you happy or feel connected, and suits your personality, rather than any biblical principles. Perhaps it is the good children or youth program that is also attractive for families, or the range of social activities and programs offered.
No one said anything about how the church makes you feel, youth programs, social activities, etc.

Feel free to start a new thread on the Evangelical approved method of finding a church. To piggy back off Drake, Imagine I became convinced overnight that my local church is not the Lords desire after all.... what do I do? How do I find a church?
11-07-2017 02:52 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The Bible seems to give no advice about "finding a church". Why is that? (we all no why, just don't say it too loudly). In fact, there is no example in the Bible of a person looking for a church as opposed to the church. So finding a church invariably settles on finding one that makes you happy or feel connected, and suits your personality, rather than any biblical principles. Perhaps it is the good children or youth program that is also attractive for families, or the range of social activities and programs offered.
The Bible doesn't talk about "ministry of the age" either. Yet, that is the basis of your gathering.
11-07-2017 02:37 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Drake, are you now playing the victim?

And you included Evangelical too? Some of the things he has posted to me are not fit for family reading. Is he also a victim? He is more critical of the untold members of the body of Christ than even Lee was.
Everyone has posted thing not fit for family reading.
11-07-2017 01:42 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Are you asking for a "friend" ? I'd be happy to talk through it - send me a private message.

The first thing to keep in mind is that there is no perfect church. If a church claims (directly or indirectly) that they are the true church or even the BEST church - find another church. Search for a church that is theologically sound and has a deep desire to teach and live out the gospel according to scripture. This includes sound doctrine and biblical authority. Find a church that places an emphasis on Christian fellowship, community, and transparent relationships that allow for Christian relationship, spiritual growth, and discipleship. Find a church with a heart for its "locality". How is is serving, loving, and sharing truth with its neighbors. Find a church that has a heart for "going and making disciples of all nations". This is by no means an exhaustive list, but a quick attempt to respond. You see something that needs to change or could be done better - raise your hand, take action, and help.

Having moved around quite a bit, I've found this is small house churches and in mega churches. I guess there are other very practical suggestions since you mentioned "locality". I don't really understand what locality means...Google tells me it means, "a place, spot, or district, with or without reference to things or persons in it or to occurrences there".

If you happen to find a church of Witness Lee in your "locality", move along. If there is not.... one less landmine to worry about.
The Bible seems to give no advice about "finding a church". Why is that? (we all no why, just don't say it too loudly). In fact, there is no example in the Bible of a person looking for a church as opposed to the church. So finding a church invariably settles on finding one that makes you happy or feel connected, and suits your personality, rather than any biblical principles. Perhaps it is the good children or youth program that is also attractive for families, or the range of social activities and programs offered.
11-07-2017 10:47 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
And this is exactly what Drake and Evangelical refuse to acknowledge -- that untold numbers of ex-members like us left the LSM and the LC's because this system had become corrupt.
Oddly, and unlikely, they should have heeded Nietzsche:

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster."


Anyway, they became like those they were opposing, corrupt ... by falling into the trap of a personality cult leader.
11-07-2017 10:40 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Wow! That is a priestly prayer. As long as the crutch is the Savior Jesus Christ I'm good; when the crutch becomes the ministry or the minister of the age, then I suggest a quick exit to a place where the Shepherd has healthier sheep.
Amen bro HERn ... you said in a few words what I was just struggling to say. Thanks.
11-07-2017 06:35 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
hi LofT,
no problem.
Imagine every locality... not just yours.... how would you advise them wherever they are at?
Are you asking for a "friend" ? I'd be happy to talk through it - send me a private message.

The first thing to keep in mind is that there is no perfect church. If a church claims (directly or indirectly) that they are the true church or even the BEST church - find another church. Search for a church that is theologically sound and has a deep desire to teach and live out the gospel according to scripture. This includes sound doctrine and biblical authority. Find a church that places an emphasis on Christian fellowship, community, and transparent relationships that allow for Christian relationship, spiritual growth, and discipleship. Find a church with a heart for its "locality". How is is serving, loving, and sharing truth with its neighbors. Find a church that has a heart for "going and making disciples of all nations". This is by no means an exhaustive list, but a quick attempt to respond. You see something that needs to change or could be done better - raise your hand, take action, and help.

Having moved around quite a bit, I've found this is small house churches and in mega churches. I guess there are other very practical suggestions since you mentioned "locality". I don't really understand what locality means...Google tells me it means, "a place, spot, or district, with or without reference to things or persons in it or to occurrences there".

If you happen to find a church of Witness Lee in your "locality", move along. If there is not.... one less landmine to worry about.
11-07-2017 05:09 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
This is the irony of the LC. Their history of the Lord's recovery is of people coming out of religious systems that had become corrupt. Until you get to the LC and everything becomes fixed, and no one should ever leave for any reason.

In the LC they have taken a spiritual principle (all the believers in a place constitute the the church that is in that place), codified it principle into a religious system, and then married the whole thing to institutionalized adulation of Witness Lee.
And this is exactly what Drake and Evangelical refuse to acknowledge -- that untold numbers of ex-members like us left the LSM and the LC's because this system had become corrupt.
11-06-2017 08:30 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Nee, Lee, and LSM love their first MOTA Martin Luther, but think about how many he stumbled out of Catholicism by exposing their Papal MOTA?

So it's no wonder that the Pope put a "hit" out on him.
This is the irony of the LC. Their history of the Lord's recovery is of people coming out of religious systems that had become corrupt. Until you get to the LC and everything becomes fixed, and no one should ever leave for any reason.

In the LC they have taken a spiritual principle (all the believers in a place constitute the the church that is in that place), codified it principle into a religious system, and then married the whole thing to institutionalized adulation of Witness Lee.
11-06-2017 07:45 PM
HERn
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post

May those in the LC become strong enough to live without their crutch.
Wow! That is a priestly prayer. As long as the crutch is the Savior Jesus Christ I'm good; when the crutch becomes the ministry or the minister of the age, then I suggest a quick exit to a place where the Shepherd has healthier sheep.
11-06-2017 07:14 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I'm certain that will not satisfy those who seek to condemn and slander the brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery
I'll freely condemn and slander the system of the local church, their far out extra-Biblical teachings, and leaders, but not the brothers and sisters.

We don't condemn and slander people that require a crutch to walk. Why should we condemn or slander someone that needs the crutch of following a man?

We're all different. Some of us need someone to follow and some of us don't.

After the LC I decided I would never hook my wagon to a man ever again. It took me awhile, but I eventually learned to think for myself, and live on my own, without following someone else.

It hasn't always been easy, but I find comfort in the fact that it could always be worse ; I could still be in the LC.

And obviously, I'd like those in the LC to learn to live without following a man, but that's something they're gonna have to hopefully work out on their own.

Some people need a crutch to walk. They're not bad people. And it would be cruel to kick the crutch out from under someone that needs it, before their leg is strong enough to walk without it.

May those in the LC become strong enough to live without their crutch.
11-06-2017 06:58 PM
least
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
1Peter says that we are "1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"
......

We are going through a process of sanctification, but the goal is "Unto obedience" -- that indicates God has something for each one of us to accomplish and we need to obey. Finally, it is "unto the sprinkling of the blood". Generally we think of the blood as the starting point, the foundation on which we stand. But here the "sprinkling of the blood" is our ultimate goal. We will become priests, each one of us. Our life, our testimony, our speaking is like sprinkling the Lord's blood, a life supply, little drops of forgiveness and justification.
.....
Using IPeter 1:2 to explain/illustrate a mota or The MOTA teaching/doctrine/whatever – is far-fetched; my opinion. Me not interested.

I’m interested in your interpretation of ‘unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:’ .
Do you have source(s) for what you said (wrote), or it is your own understanding?
If you bother, can you write more on this verse (and verses and context) in this space?

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5779
Nee Lee free zone.
Thanks.
11-06-2017 06:10 PM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I'm surprised an "alternative" someone such as yourself is going with the "it's not in the bible argument" when you know there are so many overlays Christianity has on the Bible. Even the concepts of New Testament and Old Testament, "age of grace" etc are overlays. The verse and chapter numbering is also overlays, and they also play a part in how the bible is interpreted. The term "faith alone" is also an overlay, given to us by the MOTA Luther and Calvin. But no verse in the bible saying that, ZNP was unable to produce it. There's even a "pagan" overlay coming up very soon - Christ mass. Christmas is a pagan overlay really on a concept the bible is silent about ( and we know that Jews did not celebrate birthdays, so trying to portray the nativity scene as Christ's first birthday celebration is naive).

We can even find overlays within the bible itself. Now here is one for you bible fundamentalists out there (awareness and myself included )
Where in the Bible did Jesus ever say "saved by grace" or even use the word grace in a teaching, parable or conversation? The simple fact is that Jesus never taught or spoke about grace, as revealed in the 4 gospels. So the concept of grace in the Paul's letters was actually an overlay onto the gospels. Overlays, overlays, everywhere.
Trenchant observation. Obviously, when one finds an "overlay" literally stated in the Biblical text it can be unequivocally termed "Biblical". When an overlay isn't literally stated in the Bible, the question whether it is Biblical or not is a matter of judgment. Thus, the matter of whether or not "The Trinity" is biblical remains controversial to this day. It may be unequivocally stated to be literally extra-biblical even though, the orthodox see it represented there conceptually.

Whether or not Jesus' understanding of his work corresponds with Paul's concept of soteriology is another question, although an internal biblical one. Wittingly or not, with your "overlay" observation, you have opened up a theological can of worms. Nothing you said legitimates the Witness Lee's concepts of the vision, ministry or minister of the age in terms of the Bible.
11-06-2017 05:43 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Hey sorry Drake...never saw this post.

I'd invite them to church with me to sit with my family and introduce them to my friends.
hi LofT,

no problem.

Imagine every locality... not just yours.... how would you advise them wherever they are at?


Drake
11-06-2017 05:42 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Okay. I'll call you Blended Brother.
Lower case is better, e.g. blended brother. But I'm a blending brother as I am not blended enough yet.
11-06-2017 05:09 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
LofT,

Let’s say a miracle happens. Imagine every brother and sister in the Lord’s Recovery became convinced overnight that the local churches are not the Lords desire after all. They read your above post and it’s a Saturday night and they come to you and ask where they should meet tomorrow since it’s a Sunday.

Where would you tell them to go to church tomorrow?

Drake
Hey sorry Drake...never saw this post.

I'd invite them to church with me to sit with my family and introduce them to my friends.
11-06-2017 04:27 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
UntoHIm> ".....the only official definitions of these three pillars is the ones that emanate from the headquarters their on La Palma in Anaheim.
They are clearly delineated here: http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...yMinister.html"

Yes, they are clearly delineated there..... but not here. There is no use of MOTA as if it were some official position like POTUS or SCOTUS or CEO. The use of "Minister of the Age" is used correctly in a title of a section of the article. In the body of the article Kerry is careful to use lowercase "minister of the age". His meaning is clear when he wrote:

"
We should not be those who covet or vie for a name or position."

A minister of the age is not a position ..... it is a function, a description, or an identifier. I'm certain that will not satisfy those who seek to condemn and slander the brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery but those are the facts as clearly delineated in the article.

However, I wholeheartedly agree that anyone that wants to understand what the local churches teach about those three items should read that article. It is very well done.

Drake

I would agree with this based on what I read concerning MOTA in LSM publications. But then you have to also take into account the Loyalty pledge that elders were required to sign, pledging loyalty to Witness Lee and his ministry. In addition you have to look into the allegations made that brothers were "disciplined" or "excommunicated" because they did not subscribe to a loyalty pledge to Witness Lee.

Yes, Kerry did a magnificent job of polishing a turd, but these allegations have been substantiated by many witnesses. According to the NT you only need 2-3 witnesses to justify an investigation.

In addition to this I knew many saints in the LRC that were quietly very offended at the new move to "pray read" Witness Lee's messages for morning watch rather than the Bible. No doubt Kerry could put a positive spin on that downplaying any appearance of elevating Witness Lee's words to put them on par with the Bible.

Finally, the recent allegations concerning Watchman Nee having been disciplined in Shanghai due to living with a mistress is very relevant. Witness Lee was certainly fully aware of what the truth is concerning Watchman Nee. If his account of Watchman Nee being excommunicated by elders who thought his mother was a mistress is not true then the perpetuation of this lie by Witness Lee is extremely relevant. Witness Lee is the one that taught that Watchman Nee was the Minister of the Age and that he was the closest coworker to Watchman Nee assigned to carry on the ministry. All of this adds up to a different motive for this doctrine. Personally I think it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to prove conclusively that Witness Lee's account was a lie. What I did find was a horrible paucity in Witness Lee's written ministry concerning Watchman Nee's discipline by the Shanghai elders. I find that reprehensible seeing how significant WN was to WL's ministry and his complete and total awareness of the other versions of what happened. If he had evidence that those claims were false he should have made a much better case. Once WN was dead he was free, as the leading coworker involved in the restoration of WN. Therefore I put the blame on not being able to disprove the accusations about WN on WL.
11-06-2017 03:29 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Here's another -"church service", the term is not found in the Bible. Wait a minute, I just noticed you have capitalized Blended Brothers.
Okay. I'll call you Blended Brother.
11-06-2017 03:25 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Your statement and your conduct is not in alignment. The only person you may be fooling is yourself.
LofT,

How do you advise on post #93?

Drake
11-06-2017 02:57 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

UntoHIm> ".....the only official definitions of these three pillars is the ones that emanate from the headquarters their on La Palma in Anaheim.
They are clearly delineated here: http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...yMinister.html"

Yes, they are clearly delineated there..... but not here. There is no use of MOTA as if it were some official position like POTUS or SCOTUS or CEO. The use of "Minister of the Age" is used correctly in a title of a section of the article. In the body of the article Kerry is careful to use lowercase "minister of the age". His meaning is clear when he wrote:

"
We should not be those who covet or vie for a name or position."

A minister of the age is not a position ..... it is a function, a description, or an identifier. I'm certain that will not satisfy those who seek to condemn and slander the brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery but those are the facts as clearly delineated in the article.

However, I wholeheartedly agree that anyone that wants to understand what the local churches teach about those three items should read that article. It is very well done.

Drake

11-06-2017 02:41 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Hey bro Evangelical, good argument, and so true. Being an alternative viewer I could go into the early other gospels, with overlays such as Peter resurrecting a tuna fish, or his shadow having healing powers.

I guess we could say that, in the end Christianity is made up of overlays and interpolations ... and Nee and Lee came up with some new whoppers. Now that's a Recovery of The Church ; and Recovering back to the days of no overlays ... NOT!

So the local church doesn't celebrate the overlay of Christmas, but do honor the overlays of the vision of the age, ministry of the age, and minister of the age? Overlay selection and preference? Prejudice against one and not the others?

I'm laughing as much about the MOTA teachings as I did when I learned of the Blended Brothers ... that undermine and negate the MOTA doctrine ... by the way. I guess, maybe, that they are The Recovery of the church, recovering from their own blunders, of the MOTA doctrine overlay. But, oddly, that's a new overlay ; where is the term Blended Brothers in the scripture? Not even the disciples, who were most blended with Jesus, used that term.

Tell the truth : Lee's local church movement is full of laughable absurd overlays and interpolations on the scripture ... they even have a term for it. They call them footnotes.

And OH! brother. You forgot to give me a term of endearment.
Here's another -"church service", the term is not found in the Bible. Wait a minute, I just noticed you have capitalized Blended Brothers.
11-06-2017 02:01 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
But I feel to say : If I stumble a brother away from this Vision, Ministry, Minister, false teaching, I haven't really stumble anyone away from anything but a false belief.
Nee, Lee, and LSM love their first MOTA Martin Luther, but think about how many he stumbled out of Catholicism by exposing their Papal MOTA?

So it's no wonder that the Pope put a "hit" out on him.
11-06-2017 01:40 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Though addressed to ZNP, I'll take it as it relates to my own experience. The matter of stumbling goes both ways. Not one way. However in the local churches that is not always so. I've been in many meetings where the prophesying portion was used as a platform to put down non-LSM affiliated assemblies. Months after Renton took the ground as a LSM-affiliated locality several brothers came to my home saying I'm welcome as long as I never made Steve Isitt an issue. I never did. Nor have I made John Ingalls or any other brother an issue. If brothers don't have the capacity for an objective discussion, then it's best to keep opinions to myself.
I have never used any meeting nor anyone's home other than my own as a venue to speak content I post on this forum. This is a place for discussions. If people are stumbled by the content I post, they shouldn't be here.
Hear! Hear! ... Amen brother Terry.

But I feel to say : If I stumble a brother away from this Vision, Ministry, Minister, false teaching, I haven't really stumble anyone away from anything but a false belief. Paul spoke of not stumbling brothers over eating foods to idols. Is stumbling a brother that buys into the idol of Witness Lee the same thing? One is something made of wood and stone, but this MOTA thing deals with something much worse ... something that's living and real, that something being Lee's "recovery" movement. Recovery? What a joke? Another bewitching lie.

And while I'm at it. Does anyone have an official list of all the MOTA's down thru the ages?
11-06-2017 01:04 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
You are applying the matter of not stumbling in a double standard, one for you and one for me. Yet, a great principle as you described in your own words of not doing anything to stumble a brother is applied wide and if you stand on that principle but then qualify it to restrict its applicability for others then in so doing you negate the principle itself.
Though addressed to ZNP, I'll take it as it relates to my own experience. The matter of stumbling goes both ways. Not one way. However in the local churches that is not always so. I've been in many meetings where the prophesying portion was used as a platform to put down non-LSM affiliated assemblies. Months after Renton took the ground as a LSM-affiliated locality several brothers came to my home saying I'm welcome as long as I never made Steve Isitt an issue. I never did. Nor have I made John Ingalls or any other brother an issue. If brothers don't have the capacity for an objective discussion, then it's best to keep opinions to myself.
I have never used any meeting nor anyone's home other than my own as a venue to speak content I post on this forum. This is a place for discussions. If people are stumbled by the content I post, they shouldn't be here.
11-06-2017 12:36 PM
UntoHim
The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the Age

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
First, I do not agree with the acronym “MOTA” as it has morphed in this forum into something like an office, like POTUS. That conveys the wrong idea. When you ask “how LSM MOTA is/are biblical” I believe our understandings are so different that it would be impossible without first agreeing on a definition.
Firstly, an acronym is just an acronym. There is nothing to agree or not agree with. What you don't agree with is the exposing of what is actually taught and practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. At the heart of of the sect/movement are three clearly delineated pillars. The Vision of the Age, The Ministry of the Age and the Minister of the Age. During Lee's earlier ministry in America, he spoke mainly in terms of the less dogmatic "Vision of the Church". At some point this "vision" morphed into "The Vision of the Age", no doubt because it was easier to personalize this vision as coming solely and directly from Witness Lee. The next two are simply a way to describe the person and work of Witness Lee. "The Ministry of the Age" is simply the personal ministry of Lee. ("The work" part of the person and work - The Blended Brothers don't even try to hide this fact anymore.) "The Minister of the Age" is, of course, Witness Lee. The Minister of the Age reflects the personal, unquestioned authority of Lee in the Movement. ("the person" part of the person and work).

So our friends Drake and Evangelical can opine and bloviate until the mooing cows come home, the only official definitions of these three pillars is the ones that emanate from the headquarters their on La Palma in Anaheim.
They are clearly delineated here: http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...yMinister.html
-
11-06-2017 08:35 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I'm surprised an "alternative" someone such as yourself is going with the "it's not in the bible argument" when you know there are so many overlays Christianity has on the Bible. Even the concepts of New Testament and Old Testament, "age of grace" etc are overlays. The verse and chapter numbering is also overlays, and they also play a part in how the bible is interpreted. The term "faith alone" is also an overlay, given to us by the MOTA Luther and Calvin. But no verse in the bible saying that, ZNP was unable to produce it. There's even a "pagan" overlay coming up very soon - Christ mass. Christmas is a pagan overlay really on a concept the bible is silent about ( and we know that Jews did not celebrate birthdays, so trying to portray the nativity scene as Christ's first birthday celebration is naive).

We can even find overlays within the bible itself. Now here is one for you bible fundamentalists out there (awareness and myself included )
Where in the Bible did Jesus ever say "saved by grace" or even use the word grace in a teaching, parable or conversation? The simple fact is that Jesus never taught or spoke about grace, as revealed in the 4 gospels. So the concept of grace in the Paul's letters was actually an overlay onto the gospels. Overlays, overlays, everywhere.
Hey bro Evangelical, good argument, and so true. Being an alternative viewer I could go into the early other gospels, with overlays such as Peter resurrecting a tuna fish, or his shadow having healing powers.

I guess we could say that, in the end Christianity is made up of overlays and interpolations ... and Nee and Lee came up with some new whoppers. Now that's a Recovery of The Church ; and Recovering back to the days of no overlays ... NOT!

So the local church doesn't celebrate the overlay of Christmas, but do honor the overlays of the vision of the age, ministry of the age, and minister of the age? Overlay selection and preference? Prejudice against one and not the others?

I'm laughing as much about the MOTA teachings as I did when I learned of the Blended Brothers ... that undermine and negate the MOTA doctrine ... by the way. I guess, maybe, that they are The Recovery of the church, recovering from their own blunders, of the MOTA doctrine overlay. But, oddly, that's a new overlay ; where is the term Blended Brothers in the scripture? Not even the disciples, who were most blended with Jesus, used that term.

Tell the truth : Lee's local church movement is full of laughable absurd overlays and interpolations on the scripture ... they even have a term for it. They call them footnotes.

And OH! brother. You forgot to give me a term of endearment.
11-06-2017 07:33 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Gods move in biblical history is revealed when He wants to do something. For instance, God wanted to preserve the human race and creatures so He used Noah to build an ark at that time and place. That was the ministry (or service) of that age and if you lived in that place at that time and wanted to participate in what God was doing then you joined in with Noah because that is who God was using. If you lived at that time and decided Noah was a crazy old fool for building a big boat and instead choose to build the best rowing boats on the Euphrates then you could do that but you would not be partipating in what God was doing at that time and place with and through Noah. Both would be building boats but only one was according to God’s design for His purpose and the other, though also a boat would not survive the ultimate test... the flood. The ministry of that age was the building of a boat, the minister of that age was Noah, and the vision of that age, Gods judgement with a flood, was imparted to Noah from Enoch.

I’ll pause here for your response with this example.

Drake
Drake, in citing Noah you are not helping your case in any way.

Firstly, Noah was a righteous man. WL was not. Honest history shows us that.

I have already posted my many reasons for saying this.

So Noah is a non-starter on many levels, unless, of course, you want to compare Ham with Philip Lee.

Care to try again?
11-06-2017 07:17 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
In other words, you cannot claim to be “speaking the truth in love” and deny that others such as Evangelical or myself are speaking the truth in love. Frankly, I do not understand how anyone who claims to be speaking the truth in love can do so with the vitriolic and caustic attitude toward fellow believers who meet in the local church .... words and attitudes as are so often exhibited in this forum..... and yet where is “the love” in that ?
Drake, are you now playing the victim?

And you included Evangelical too? Some of the things he has posted to me are not fit for family reading. Is he also a victim? He is more critical of the untold members of the body of Christ than even Lee was.

Funny how you become faux outraged by the phrase “speaking the truth in love.” John Ingalls had justification to say that, but the supporters of LSM?

And where is all the "vitriolic and caustic attitude?" I have read on this thread many challenges to LSM hypocrisy, numerous polemic disputes over your many extra-biblical assertions, and endless scripture quoted to reject these claims, but now ZNP has a "bad attitude?" I think you are being overly subjective and way too sensitive here.

Btw, you have no idea what "vitriolic and caustic attitudes" are until you read some of the comments following any online political news report.
11-06-2017 07:12 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Least>”2. You define it (MOTA) as someone whom God selects and uses to carry out His move in certain time and place.
What is His move in certain time and place?
Your examples are bible characters listed in chronological order. You have not explained how each is MOTA. And how LSM MOTA is/are biblical.”

Least,

Fair questions and well thought out. I am happy to give my point of view and have a conversation and will start out with the second one as stated above.

First, I do not agree with the acronym “MOTA” as it has morphed in this forum into something like an office, like POTUS. That conveys the wrong idea. When you ask “how LSM MOTA is/are biblical” I believe our understandings are so different that it would be impossible without first agreeing on a definition. Your second question is a good starting point for that.

Gods move in biblical history is revealed when He wants to do something. For instance, God wanted to preserve the human race and creatures so He used Noah to build an ark at that time and place. That was the ministry (or service) of that age and if you lived in that place at that time and wanted to participate in what God was doing then you joined in with Noah because that is who God was using. If you lived at that time and decided Noah was a crazy old fool for building a big boat and instead choose to build the best rowing boats on the Euphrates then you could do that but you would not be partipating in what God was doing at that time and place with and through Noah. Both would be building boats but only one was according to God’s design for His purpose and the other, though also a boat, swift and streamlined for gliding up and down the river, would not survive the ultimate test... the flood. The ministry of that age was the building of a boat, the minister of that age was Noah, and the vision of that age, Gods coming judgement with a flood, was imparted to Noah from Enoch.

I’ll pause here for your response with this example.

Drake
11-06-2017 06:34 AM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
In other words, you cannot claim to be “speaking the truth in love” and deny that others such as Evangelical or myself are speaking the truth in love. Frankly, I do not understand how anyone who claims to be speaking the truth in love can do so with the vitriolic and caustic attitude toward fellow believers who meet in the local church .... words and attitudes as are so often exhibited in this forum..... and yet where is “the love” in that ? Where is your defense of that great principle when you see it right here in this forum? But I tell you plainly, that what I speak here is truth according to the scriptures and I say it with and in love. You don’t have a compelling argument when you say that a call to return to a testimony of oneness is a stumbling to those who know the difference and choose to remain in division. Our responsibility is to speak the truth in love and so on that one point we agree.
Your statement and your conduct is not in alignment. The only person you may be fooling is yourself.
11-06-2017 06:24 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
"2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted."

The Lord commends those who do this work.

I don't think you understand what "stumbling your brother" means.

Paul said that we need to "speak the truth in love". The truth may hurt, but it doesn't stumble you.

The only way that calling Witness Lee a false teacher, or accusing Luther of teaching falsehood as Evangelical is doing, would cause someone to stumble is if they have their faith in a man instead of Jesus. But the sooner you discover your error the better.
ZNP,

You are applying the matter of not stumbling in a double standard, one for you and one for me. Yet, a great principle as you described in your own words of not doing anything to stumble a brother is applied wide and if you stand on that principle but then qualify it to restrict its applicability for others then in so doing you negate the principle itself.

In other words, you cannot claim to be “speaking the truth in love” and deny that others such as Evangelical or myself are speaking the truth in love. Frankly, I do not understand how anyone who claims to be speaking the truth in love can do so with the vitriolic and caustic attitude toward fellow believers who meet in the local church .... words and attitudes as are so often exhibited in this forum..... and yet where is “the love” in that ? Where is your defense of that great principle when you see it right here in this forum? But I tell you plainly, that what I speak here is truth according to the scriptures and I say it with and in love. You don’t have a compelling argument when you say that a call to return to a testimony of oneness is a stumbling to those who know the difference and choose to remain in division. Our responsibility is to speak the truth in love and so on that one point we agree.

Drake
11-06-2017 05:59 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by least View Post
Thank you Drake for the reply. I requested an answer from you in case you have biblical knowledge that confirms LSM MOTA is God ordained.
To your question: -
Do you agree with definition? If not, why not?

1. First of all, the definition is yours. “I define it as” … You did not state- the bible defines it as …
My purpose was to find from the bible, definition of ‘the age’ and definition of LSM MOTA (ministry of the age, minister of the age, ministers of the age).
So far, the responses I had, are individual interpretations of ‘the age’ and MOTA. (Thank you all for the responses).
To individual views of ‘the age’ and MOTA- I respect your views. I do not want to agree or disagree with the individual views. I want to study the bible’s views.

2. You define it (MOTA) as someone whom God selects and uses to carry out His move in certain time and place.
What is His move in certain time and place?
Your examples are bible characters listed in chronological order. You have not explained how each is MOTA. And how LSM MOTA is/are biblical.

Including Jesus in the list of bible characters is not appropriate. Jesus is not in the same category.

3. The LSM MOTA with its ‘controlling vision’ that ‘governs your lives’ is LSM/LC internal affairs/politics. I once was totally in it, amen and repeat WL messages and live no other way, and know no other people except LCers. The Holy Spirit worked in me and for me, and I booted myself out of there. After out and only reading the bible that I bit by bit discovered the ‘control’ and ‘govern’ that are not biblical.

Unless the bible confirms LSM MOTA is God ordained, rejecting LSM MOTA is NOT rejecting bible record.
-
1Peter says that we are "1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:"

So every single believer has been chosen by God, according to things that God knows. Now if anyone could claim "MOTA" status it is Peter and yet he is pointing out that we all, every single one of us, was selected.

We are going through a process of sanctification, but the goal is "Unto obedience" -- that indicates God has something for each one of us to accomplish and we need to obey. Finally, it is "unto the sprinkling of the blood". Generally we think of the blood as the starting point, the foundation on which we stand. But here the "sprinkling of the blood" is our ultimate goal. We will become priests, each one of us. Our life, our testimony, our speaking is like sprinkling the Lord's blood, a life supply, little drops of forgiveness and justification.

Therefore the record in the Bible is that God's goal is that every single believer would become a minister of the age, from Peter to every last one of us. With that understanding the term "The" Minister of the Age could only apply to Jesus.
11-06-2017 05:51 AM
least
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Least,
No need for you to be combative.
To your last question we agree.
To your request to define define “MOTA” I define it as someone whom God selects and uses to carry out His move in certain time and place. Examples of this from the Bible include Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Saul, David, Solomon, Nehemiah, Daniel, etc. and in the New Testament first and foremost our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the Captain of our salvation and great ascended Head of the universal Body of Christ, and then after His ascension there is Peter with the keys of the kingdom and Paul, etc.

Do you agree with definition? If not, why not?

Drake
Thank you Drake for the reply. I requested an answer from you in case you have biblical knowledge that confirms LSM MOTA is God ordained.
To your question: -
Do you agree with definition? If not, why not?

1. First of all, the definition is yours. “I define it as” … You did not state- the bible defines it as …
My purpose was to find from the bible, definition of ‘the age’ and definition of LSM MOTA (ministry of the age, minister of the age, ministers of the age).
So far, the responses I had, are individual interpretations of ‘the age’ and MOTA. (Thank you all for the responses).
To individual views of ‘the age’ and MOTA- I respect your views. I do not want to agree or disagree with the individual views. I want to study the bible’s views.

2. You define it (MOTA) as someone whom God selects and uses to carry out His move in certain time and place.
What is His move in certain time and place?
Your examples are bible characters listed in chronological order. You have not explained how each is MOTA. And how LSM MOTA is/are biblical.

Including Jesus in the list of bible characters is not appropriate. Jesus is not in the same category.

3. The LSM MOTA with its ‘controlling vision’ that ‘governs your lives’ is LSM/LC internal affairs/politics. I once was totally in it, amen and repeat WL messages and live no other way, and know no other people except LCers. The Holy Spirit worked in me and for me, and I booted myself out of there. After out and only reading the bible that I bit by bit discovered the ‘control’ and ‘govern’ that are not biblical.

Unless the bible confirms LSM MOTA is God ordained, rejecting LSM MOTA is NOT rejecting bible record.
-
11-05-2017 08:16 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.


The world is run by idols. NFL -- idols. Hollywood -- idols. Money -- graven image / idol. Etc.

A weak brother may be very sensitive to this fact and think that any minor issue could be equivalent to idol worship. Therefore it is the responsibility of those "stronger in the faith" to not stumble these ones.

Likewise, if you say that Witness Lee is the MOTA it can be construed by some to be "another Christ". Not by you, not by Drake, but as you have heard the various testimonies of Awareness, Zeek and others their has been the distinct impression that what we say, what we teach, etc is not to just magnify Christ but also to magnify WL. That can offend and stumble some.

When I was in the LRC I ignored this talk. Even though I was in Houston and then in Irving with Ray Graver who was the most vocal and most frank in his fealty to Witness Lee as the MOTA, my attitude was that as long as it isn't in print I can ignore it because this is just the opinion of one brother. I can "agree to disagree". No one asked me to sign a loyalty pledge. I was never required to "pledge allegiance" to Witness Lee. And there was nothing in print saying Witness Lee was "unique" or the one that God gave the vision to particularly to deliver to us, and the one through whom God would carry out His plan.

But that is no longer the case. It is in print. Brothers were required to sign a loyalty pledge. Brothers were excommunicated for failing to pledge allegiance. Hence Paul's word "take heed lest this liberty of yours become a stumbling block". I had the liberty to ignore this right up until I learned that some were being stumbled. Then it became something I was required to take heed to.
11-05-2017 08:14 PM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
You could use this argument to justify offending a weak brother's conscience, directly contradicting Paul's instructions.

e.g. "That's like saying the only way eating food sacrificed to idols would cause someone to stumble is if they have their faith in an idol instead of Jesus."

It seems you are trying to justify not following Paul by blaming the weak brother.
I think you have over-generalized a specific instruction on eating food sacrificed to idols.

Paul accused false apostles and wrong doings of the believers many times in his epistles, so you would say he stumbled weak brothers?

Is there any specific reference in the bible that we should tolerate false teachers in order not to stumble weak believers?

For me, Rev 2:20 tells us not to tolerate:

But I have something against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, she who calls herself a prophetess and teaches and leads My slaves astray to commit fornication and to eat idol sacrifices.
11-05-2017 07:55 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
"2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted."

The Lord commends those who do this work.

I don't think you understand what "stumbling your brother" means.

Paul said that we need to "speak the truth in love". The truth may hurt, but it doesn't stumble you.

The only way that calling Witness Lee a false teacher, or accusing Luther of teaching falsehood as Evangelical is doing, would cause someone to stumble is if they have their faith in a man instead of Jesus. But the sooner you discover your error the better.
You could use this argument to justify offending a weak brother's conscience, directly contradicting Paul's instructions.

e.g. "That's like saying the only way eating food sacrificed to idols would cause someone to stumble is if they have their faith in an idol instead of Jesus."

It seems you are trying to justify not following Paul by blaming the weak brother.
11-05-2017 07:39 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I am absolutely denying that I am an expert on what Luther did and did not teach.

What I have seen is quite Biblical. That said I would not be surprised if he, like many other people, made mistakes. I would welcome you presenting credible evidence to that effect as it would educate me. But other than that I find the entire discussion a distraction from the main topic.
There's no mistake. I am merely showing that term "faith alone" is not directly from the bible but from an overlay created by the MOTA Luther (also attributed to Calvin, but Luther was preaching it before Calvin). Therefore whenever a person says "saved by faith alone" they are in fact quoting a MOTA, not the Bible.

I never said Luther was heretic. I am saying that the real difference between those who say he wasn't (eg. Protestants), and those who say he was (eg. Catholics) is what he taught which is not found in the Bible. It would be strange for a protestant to say he was a heretic just as it would be strange for a Catholic to say Luther was not a heretic. The teaching is related to the minister.
11-05-2017 07:05 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
I tend to regard the LSM/LC teaching of MOTO as a fallacy. It's to give a measure of self-importance. As if in order for the Lord to return, LSM is the center for it to happen.
Historically if we were to examine Lee, Nee, Darby, etc, what does that say about other ministers of those eras?
Take Darby's era. If one believes the notion he's the MOTA I suppose that relegates Newton, Mueller, Chapman, Taylor, and Spurgeon as irrelevant. Same can be said in Lee's era. There's Tozer, Sparks, Singh, and all the brothers Lee was mentored with under Nee's tutelage. They're all irrelevant.
Or the contrarian view maybe these brothers are MOTA because their ministry's support the Local Church model.
I regard it as a gimmick to justify a monopoly in the bookworm, to maximize sales, and simply to make money.

For example, the Recovery Version of the NT and then the Bible with footnotes is called "the gold bar" by those who work in the printing at LSM (Ray Graver, etc). Imagine you have 10,000 saints, each one has at least one "gold bar" maybe more.

So how do you make it critical for every saint to have one of these in the meeting? You "pray read the footnotes" of course. It was Ed Marks in Houston who really pushed this, much to the delight of Ray Graver. This was before they went to Irving, and then Anaheim. This much despised practice (pray reading Witness Lee's writings) is simply a gimmick to force saints to buy these books.
11-05-2017 06:48 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP>"That principle was in the context of not allowing your liberty to stumble a brother. I have already made it clear if there is such a liberty of mine that is stumbling you let me know. You have not said what is stumbling you and I have already asked once."

Ok.

The liberty you exercise in this forum of writing posts that accuse Brother Lee of being a false teacher is stumbling me.

Drake
"2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted."

The Lord commends those who do this work.

I don't think you understand what "stumbling your brother" means.

Paul said that we need to "speak the truth in love". The truth may hurt, but it doesn't stumble you.

The only way that calling Witness Lee a false teacher, or accusing Luther of teaching falsehood as Evangelical is doing, would cause someone to stumble is if they have their faith in a man instead of Jesus. But the sooner you discover your error the better.
11-05-2017 06:46 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
That is because they only speak these things in their little bubble of like-minded loyalists. These comments are never challenged until one departs the bubble and has to face real live Christians on the outside. These concepts like the MOTA have never been time-tested or truth-tested.

The more we look into these aberrant teachings, the more they appear to be the same ones that enslaved the Catholics and the Plymouth Brethren. Once a minister is elevated to MOTA status, he is no longer accountable to God or man. Any and all unrighteousness must necessarily be covered up, swept under the rug, and all evidence and witnesses must be disposed of.
I tend to regard the LSM/LC teaching of MOTO as a fallacy. It's to give a measure of self-importance. As if in order for the Lord to return, LSM is the center for it to happen.
Historically if we were to examine Lee, Nee, Darby, etc, what does that say about other ministers of those eras?
Take Darby's era. If one believes the notion he's the MOTA I suppose that relegates Newton, Mueller, Chapman, Taylor, and Spurgeon as irrelevant. Same can be said in Lee's era. There's Tozer, Sparks, Singh, and all the brothers Lee was mentored with under Nee's tutelage. They're all irrelevant.
Or the contrarian view maybe these brothers are MOTA because their ministry's support the Local Church model.
11-05-2017 06:42 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
are you trying to deny that Luther taught and preached "saved by faith alone"?
I am absolutely denying that I am an expert on what Luther did and did not teach.

What I have seen is quite Biblical. That said I would not be surprised if he, like many other people, made mistakes. I would welcome you presenting credible evidence to that effect as it would educate me. But other than that I find the entire discussion a distraction from the main topic.
11-05-2017 06:24 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Awareness>" The Bible says nothing about the vision of the age, ministry of the age, or minister of the age. It says nothing, zilch, nada, no thing at all, about those concepts. They are overlays upon the Bible ; interpolations at best."

Awareness,

If vision, ministry, and ministers were removed from the Bible no one could be saved.

Drake
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Not through the vision as defined by Witness Lee, nor the ministry as defined by Witness Lee, and especially not by the Minister of Witness Lee...

To God be the glory, great things He hath done,
So loved He the world that He gave us His Son,
Who yielded His life our redemption to win,
And opened the life-gate that all may go in.


Thank God that Witness Lee is not the gatekeeper of life, salvation, and relation with our creator!

Come!
11-05-2017 05:50 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
ZNP,

You might have the teaching about offending the conscience around the wrong way because the lesson as I recall was Paul telling the strong believers who know that idols are nothing to avoid offending the conscience of the weaker ones who believe that the idol is something.

So it seems that you believe that Lee as MOTA is nothing, just as an idol is nothing, and therefore that makes Drake and I the "weak believers" for believing that Lee is the MOTA. Then according to the bible, should you not avoid offending our consciences?
Finally you agree that the MOTA has become your idol.
11-05-2017 05:36 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

ZNP>"That principle was in the context of not allowing your liberty to stumble a brother. I have already made it clear if there is such a liberty of mine that is stumbling you let me know. You have not said what is stumbling you and I have already asked once."

Ok.

The liberty you exercise in this forum of writing posts that accuse Brother Lee of being a false teacher is stumbling me.

Drake
11-05-2017 05:22 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
This is a straw man argument you created that I rejected. You never proved that this quote should be ascribed to Luther, I saw no reason to pursue it.

I did provide the relevant quote that does accurately describe Luther's teaching and compared it to similar quote in Ephesians showing that it was an accurate description of Paul's teaching.
are you trying to deny that Luther taught and preached "saved by faith alone"?
11-05-2017 05:18 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
The brothers who are stumbled are those who have left the fellowship of the church over this matter of WL, the MOTA, etc.

As I have said, if you are being stumbled over some liberty of mine then be specific, what is it?

On the other hand if you are being stumbled because of my testimony that Jesus is Lord, that there is only one God and that there is only one hope of our calling, then sorry. Those are items of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. For those items we need to fight the good fight and Jesus said that this could cause a division.

So be specific, what is it that is stumbling you?

We have been very specific about the MOTA doctrine and why some have been stumbled by it.
Well you have said that Witness Lee was a false teacher and not really a MOTA.

I can see how that might stumble someone, for example, telling a Reformer that Luther was a false teacher or the Paul was not really an apostle, might also stumble someone.
11-05-2017 05:10 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
But no verse in the bible saying that, ZNP was unable to produce it.
This is a straw man argument you created that I rejected. You never proved that this quote should be ascribed to Luther, I saw no reason to pursue it.

I did provide the relevant quote that does accurately describe Luther's teaching and compared it to similar quote in Ephesians showing that it was an accurate description of Paul's teaching.
11-05-2017 05:07 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
ZNP,

You might have the teaching about offending the conscience around the wrong way because the lesson as I recall was Paul telling the strong believers who know that idols are nothing to avoid offending the conscience of the weaker ones who believe that the idol is something.

So it seems that you believe that Lee as MOTA is nothing, just as an idol is nothing, and therefore that makes Drake and I the "weak believers" for believing that Lee is the MOTA. Then according to the bible, should you not avoid offending our consciences?
The brothers who are stumbled are those who have left the fellowship of the church over this matter of WL, the MOTA, etc.

As I have said, if you are being stumbled over some liberty of mine then be specific, what is it?

On the other hand if you are being stumbled because of my testimony that Jesus is Lord, that there is only one God and that there is only one hope of our calling, then sorry. Those are items of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. For those items we need to fight the good fight and Jesus said that this could cause a division.

So be specific, what is it that is stumbling you?

We have been very specific about the MOTA doctrine and why some have been stumbled by it.
11-05-2017 05:03 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
If Witness Lee is our teacher and we are his disciples then that is not contradicting the early church model of discipleship nor that which is (informally) practiced in evangelical circles today. Perhaps what appears to be "uplifting our teacher" is actually genuine "holistic discipleship as modeled by Christ":

As this website says, "Many churches and Christian groups around the world do elements of discipleship, but rarely engage in holistic discipleship as modeled by Christ."

http://www.discipleshipdefined.com/r...s-discipleship
You have made a lot of hay over Christians lifting up Luther and the Pope. Your lifting up WL is hypocrisy.
11-05-2017 05:02 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP,

Why would you take the risk of stumbling me? You said “... the proper principle is to not do anything that causes your brother to stumble”.

Drake
That principle was in the context of not allowing your liberty to stumble a brother. I have already made it clear if there is such a liberty of mine that is stumbling you let me know. You have not said what is stumbling you and I have already asked once.

The same cannot be said for the MOTA doctrine, many have been stumbled over this and we have made it extremely clear what is stumbling these brothers.
11-05-2017 05:01 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Awareness>" The Bible says nothing about the vision of the age, ministry of the age, or minister of the age. It says nothing, zilch, nada, no thing at all, about those concepts. They are overlays upon the Bible ; interpolations at best."

Awareness,

If vision, ministry, and ministers were removed from the Bible no one could be saved.

Drake
11-05-2017 04:37 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Well I don't know if you are weak believers, ignorant believers, or just simple believers.

But you are believers that buy into concepts being taught in the local church that aren't anywhere to be found in the scriptures. The Bible says nothing about the vision of the age, ministry of the age, or minister of the age. It says nothing, zilch, nada, no thing at all, about those concepts. They are overlays upon the Bible ; interpolations at best.

So you tell me what it makes you when you are believing something that's not Biblical. Any label will do. Tell me and I'll use it in our conversations. I favor Leeites, but you pick the label you like.
I'm surprised an "alternative" someone such as yourself is going with the "it's not in the bible argument" when you know there are so many overlays Christianity has on the Bible. Even the concepts of New Testament and Old Testament, "age of grace" etc are overlays. The verse and chapter numbering is also overlays, and they also play a part in how the bible is interpreted. The term "faith alone" is also an overlay, given to us by the MOTA Luther and Calvin. But no verse in the bible saying that, ZNP was unable to produce it. There's even a "pagan" overlay coming up very soon - Christ mass. Christmas is a pagan overlay really on a concept the bible is silent about ( and we know that Jews did not celebrate birthdays, so trying to portray the nativity scene as Christ's first birthday celebration is naive).

We can even find overlays within the bible itself. Now here is one for you bible fundamentalists out there (awareness and myself included )
Where in the Bible did Jesus ever say "saved by grace" or even use the word grace in a teaching, parable or conversation? The simple fact is that Jesus never taught or spoke about grace, as revealed in the 4 gospels. So the concept of grace in the Paul's letters was actually an overlay onto the gospels. Overlays, overlays, everywhere.
11-05-2017 04:07 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
ZNP,

You might have the teaching about offending the conscience around the wrong way because the lesson as I recall was Paul telling the strong believers who know that idols are nothing to avoid offending the conscience of the weaker ones who believe that the idol is something.

So it seems that you believe that Lee as MOTA is nothing, just as an idol is nothing, and therefore that makes Drake and I the "weak believers" for believing that Lee is the MOTA. Then according to the bible, should you not avoid offending our consciences?
Well I don't know if you are weak believers, ignorant believers, or just simple believers.

But you are believers that buy into concepts being taught in the local church that aren't anywhere to be found in the scriptures. The Bible says nothing about the vision of the age, ministry of the age, or minister of the age. It says nothing, zilch, nada, no thing at all, about those concepts. They are overlays upon the Bible ; interpolations at best.

So you tell me what it makes you when you are believing something that's not Biblical. Any label will do. Tell me and I'll use it in our conversations. I favor Leeites, but you pick the label you like.
11-05-2017 03:02 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
At risk of stumbling Drake I would point out that many denominations and divisions in the Body of Christ are due to lifting up a man, whether it be Martin Luther (as Evangelical claims) or the Pope, or whoever. It seems to me to be hypocritical of a group so vocal in their condemnation of all these other groups to then have a doctrine that uplifts their local teacher.
ZNP,

You might have the teaching about offending the conscience around the wrong way because the lesson as I recall was Paul telling the strong believers who know that idols are nothing to avoid offending the conscience of the weaker ones who believe that the idol is something.

So it seems that you believe that Lee as MOTA is nothing, just as an idol is nothing, and therefore that makes Drake and I the "weak believers" for believing that Lee is the MOTA. Then according to the bible, should you not avoid offending our consciences?
11-05-2017 02:54 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
At risk of stumbling Drake I would point out that many denominations and divisions in the Body of Christ are due to lifting up a man, whether it be Martin Luther (as Evangelical claims) or the Pope, or whoever. It seems to me to be hypocritical of a group so vocal in their condemnation of all these other groups to then have a doctrine that uplifts their local teacher.
If Witness Lee is our teacher and we are his disciples then that is not contradicting the early church model of discipleship nor that which is (informally) practiced in evangelical circles today. Perhaps what appears to be "uplifting our teacher" is actually genuine "holistic discipleship as modeled by Christ":

As this website says, "Many churches and Christian groups around the world do elements of discipleship, but rarely engage in holistic discipleship as modeled by Christ."

http://www.discipleshipdefined.com/r...s-discipleship
11-05-2017 01:34 PM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
At risk of stumbling Drake I would point out...”.
ZNP,

Why would you take the risk of stumbling me? You said “... the proper principle is to not do anything that causes your brother to stumble”.

Drake
11-05-2017 11:39 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
There's the local church spirit I remember so well.
Probably just force of habit. Up to that point I was giving Drake top marks for his defense of the indefensible.
11-05-2017 11:37 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

At risk of stumbling Drake I would point out that many denominations and divisions in the Body of Christ are due to lifting up a man, whether it be Martin Luther (as Evangelical claims) or the Pope, or whoever. It seems to me to be hypocritical of a group so vocal in their condemnation of all these other groups to then have a doctrine that uplifts their local teacher.
11-05-2017 11:36 AM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
There's the local church spirit I remember so well.
The local church approach to stumbling is one of double standards. It's okay to speak up during the prophesying meeting describing all non-LSM affiliated churches as denominations. It's okay for a Bellevue elder to refer to the Church in Moses Lake as a "rebel church". It's okay to speak as they have regarding elders and coworkers who left the local churches.

Those question, those who sought to be fact-checkers, and those who refute the LSM speaking, they are stumbling.
11-05-2017 11:33 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Oh.
ZNP, your posts here are causing me to stumble, will you leave now?
If you are stumbling because of my testimony of Jesus then that is what the verses you referred to earlier say. That holding to the testimony of Jesus will cause division.

So you need to be more specific, what is it about my testimony that causes you to stumble? I have no intention of compromising on the fact that Jesus is Lord, that there is one God, and one Hope of His calling. But if there is something else that I have said that is not an item of the faith I will surely compromise. Hence, "as much as it is possible" I will be at peace with you.
11-05-2017 11:04 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Oh.
ZNP, your posts here are causing me to stumble, will you leave now?
Jesus said it was impossible for offenses not to occur.
11-05-2017 08:38 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Oh.
ZNP, your posts here are causing me to stumble, will you leave now?
There's the local church spirit I remember so well.
11-05-2017 07:33 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

ZNP>"But it seems to me the proper principle is to not do anything that causes your brother to stumble."

Oh.

ZNP, your posts here are causing me to stumble, will you leave now?

Drake
11-05-2017 06:48 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
It's a shame Jesus didn't have the LSM propaganda machine in the first century. Think how much better he could have done.
Yeah. Yes yes yes. He would have said he had the Vision of the Age, and the Ministry of the Age, and was the Minister of the Age, prophesying that 2000 yrs later Witness Lee would take it all over.
11-05-2017 04:57 AM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

It's a shame Jesus didn't have the LSM propaganda machine in the first century. Think how much better he could have done.
11-04-2017 04:26 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
From this we can see it is growing around the world. Particularly in places where the church is asleep...most of europe.
Well then by all means, operate! Use Chemo. Do something!

I get it, your view of the MOTA and Drake's view of the MOTA is different from mine.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.


But it seems to me the proper principle is to not do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Calling Jesus the "Minister of the Age" does not stumble anyone.
11-04-2017 03:37 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
From this we can see it is growing around the world. Particularly in places where the church is asleep...most of europe.
Yes, Witness Lee is more popular than anyone, and his teachings are more in circulation than anyone else's. Though he be dead, he be the MOTA.
11-04-2017 02:25 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
I have seen a few reports circulated online:
From this we can see it is growing around the world. Particularly in places where the church is asleep...most of europe.
11-04-2017 12:38 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Do you have any news about how the trip to Germany to upstage the Lutherans went?
I have seen a few reports circulated online:

Quote:
A Brief Report on the Fall 2017 ITERO and Blending Trips That Followed

On October 5-7 the International Training for Elders and Responsible Ones (ITERO) was held in Leipzig, Germany. Over 1,900 brothers, including almost 500 European brothers, attended to receive the Lord's up-to-date speaking on the recovery of the church.

Following the ITERO, more than 1,100 saints travelled across Europe to participate in 30 different blending trips. The local churches were greatly strengthened by the flow of life brought by so many visiting saints.

In the blending of the churches we receive nourishment, we receive revelation, and we receive a vision of God's eternal purpose concerning Christ and the church. Such a blending is not only for our own mutual spiritual benefit but is also for the mutual building up of the Body of Christ (1993 Blending Conference Messages concerning the Lord's Recovery and Our Present Need, ch. 2).

During the blending trips, saints also distributed over 35,000 New Testament Recovery Versions as well as thousands of pieces of literature. Many seeking contacts were met, and much prayer is needed that the local saints would have the capacity to shepherd and care for these ones.

The many blending trips across Europe concluded with regional conferences on October 14-15 in nine cities—Brussels, Copenhagen, Florence, Krakow, London, Madrid, Paris, Stuttgart, and Thessaloniki. The conferences were a respeaking of the rich messages from the ITERO, and it was clear through this speaking that the Lord is taking another major step to recover His church and the church life in Europe.

The total attendance at all of the nine conferences exceeded 4,100. For at least 200, this was their first conference. Both Copenhagen, Denmark, and Krakow, Poland, had the first Lord's table on October 15.
Please pray:
  1. That all the saints will respond to the Lord's rich speaking with much and thorough prayer that the recovery of the church and the church life would be realized all over Europe.
  2. That the Lord would continue to blend His Body and that there would be a prevailing one accord among all the saints in the local churches.
  3. That all the local saints will be supplied and strengthened to shepherd (1) the many new contacts that have been gained through the Bible and literature distributions and (2) the new ones who attended a conference for the first time.
  4. That the golden lampstands across Europe will shine brightly as the testimony of Jesus in each locality.

Quote:
Burdens related to Europe (week of 30 October 2017)

1) Follow-up of fall 2017 ITERO and the blending trips that followed
Please see the report on the next page.
2) Autumn European university conference in Oswestry, UK (3-5 November)
Please pray for this gathering of university students from all over Europe. Pray that:
• The Lord will release a timely word from the ministry and speak to each student personally
• Each student will love the Lord more and have a clearer vision of the Lord, His economy and heart’s
desire, and His move on earth to build up His Body and prepare His bride
• Every attendee will have a fresh consecration to the Lord to be one with Him for His ultimate move
• This conference will advance the blending of all the students in Europe and give them the sense
that they are members of the Lord’s one Body and of the one new man on the whole earth
3) The Lord’s move in Germany
Please continue to pray:
• That those who are in the process of emigrating to Germany will find housing and jobs (for the jobkeeping
full-timers) and will obtain visas to live and serve long term in Germany
• For the learning of the German language by the saints who have emigrated
• That the Lord will send experienced brothers who can provide leadership to the work in Germany
• For the increase, strengthening, and building up of all the churches in Germany
An application for those who wish to emigrate for the Lord’s move can be found on the Application
page at www.lordsmove.org. Gifts to support the Lord’s move in Germany should be given to LME
and designated “European Gospel Work.” See the Offerings page on the LME website.
4) Printing of Bibles for Europe
Donations for future printings should be given directly to LSM and designated “Printing Bibles for Europe.” Please download instructions for giving to LSM by clicking on the link How to Give on the Information page at www.lordsmove.org.
5) UK Building Project (London)
For information and instructions for giving directly to Amana Trust, please click on the link UK Building Project at amanatrust.org.uk. Instructions for giving through LME can be found on the Offerings page at www.lordsmove.org. Designate offerings for “UK Building Fund.”
6) Continuing distribution of ministry publications and shepherding of seeking ones
Please pray:
• For the radio broadcasts in the UK and Spain and the continuing distribution of the New Testament
Recovery Version and other free ministry publications in all the European languages.
• For the shepherding of the seeking ones and their entering into the church life.
7) The raising up of the Lord’s testimony in major cities in Europe, including Lisbon, Portugal; Vienna, Austria; Sofia, Bulgaria; Thessaloniki, Greece; Zagreb, Croatia; Belgrade and Novi Sad, Serbia; Geneva and Zurich, Switzerland; Bilbao, Spain; Hamburg and Munich, Germany; and Tirana, Albania.
11-03-2017 03:27 PM
zeek
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Evangelical, do you really think that the Local Church is "unique"? When does it stop being unique? After how many more years?

At best, all of this explosive growth you are predicting is wishful thinking. At worst, it is delusional. Even if the LC grows to 10x its current size, it will still be insignificant. How many LC members were there in Europe in the 1980s? 2,000? 3,000? Have the numbers even returned to that level after so many years? Many of us here have lived through initiative after initiative after initiative to try to get traction for LSM publications. Gospel Marches, Door-Knocking, Rainbow Booklets, Gospel Blitzes, Life-study Radio Program, BFA, Rhema, GTCA, LME, GMR, RBSA, now Germany, etc., etc., etc., etc. Yet, still, hardly anyone knows or reads Witness Lee.
Do you have any news about how the trip to Germany to upstage the Lutherans went?
11-03-2017 02:15 PM
Terry
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
When it comes to LSM, their leaders get to make up all the rules. And the names.

When it comes to the rest of the body of Christ, LSM also gets to make up all the rules in order to judge them.
All Christianity is denominated except for those who fellowship with the local churches. It gets murky when it comes to local churches who don't take LSM publications. That's when as one Seattle elder said, "they're our friends".
How is it in the local churches there's exemption from being denominated, but not exemption from division?
If all Christians were to take the way of Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 in appointing elders, guess who's call it is to appoint elders?
11-03-2017 11:05 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Many of us here have lived through initiative after initiative after initiative to try to get traction for LSM publications. Gospel Marches, Door-Knocking, Rainbow Booklets, Gospel Blitzes, Life-study Radio Program, BFA, Rhema, GTCA, LME, GMR, RBSA, now Germany, etc., etc., etc., etc. Yet, still, hardly anyone knows or reads Witness Lee.
When it comes to LSM, their leaders get to make up all the rules. And the names.

When it comes to the rest of the body of Christ, LSM also gets to make up all the rules in order to judge them.

Don't they have a name for people who condemn others for what they also do?
11-03-2017 07:35 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Evangelical, your perception of the JW's comes straight from Witness Lee. It is, like much of the rest of his material, sadly outdated. If you would do some research into the current situation, you would find that the Watchtower movement is imploding from within, decreasing in numbers, selling meeting halls left and right. They have also officially stopped going door to door.
The JWs here didn't get that memo. They're still going door to door here. I made friends with them. We have phone conversations, and one of them is giving me cut up wood for the winter. He wants me to start going to The Kingdom Hall. I tell him I've already been in a Christian cult before, and don't need another one. He, of course says they are not a cult. I say, you smell like one. We're still friends. I read much of their material, and we talk about it. He grew up a Pentecostal. He's a great guy.
11-03-2017 06:57 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I guess Kangas got wind of my troubles in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, with Mel Porter, so he called me. He was so burdened for me to come to Anaheim that he literally cried on the phone for me to come.

But he made one mistake that stopped me in my tracks. He said that there was a new flow of the Lord in Anaheim, that he wanted me to join. It sounded good until he said that some brothers weren't in the flow, that some were against the flow.

That turned me off. I didn't say it to him, he was crying for me, but I thought, if the flow is of the Lord then everyone would be swept up in it.

Who knows where I'd be today if I had listened to him. He and I were buddies back then. I would have had an in at the top. Thank God I didn't go.
You could have been Eliot from Mr. Robot. Like Drake has pointed out you could have provided us with better documentation to back up some of the allegations.
11-03-2017 06:51 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Who knows where I'd be today if I had listened to him. He and I were buddies back then. I would have had an in at the top. Thank God I didn't go.
When it comes to advancing in the program, probably every one of the Blendeds has thrown their friends under the bus. There's no such thing as loyalty for those who remain.
11-03-2017 05:35 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
That's funny. You should have been from Cleveland, Ohio. We heard those whispers all the time.

Here's one very stupid and superstitious, but funny story I heard way back in May 1977 during the Young Galileans movement while I was attending a conference in Chicago, with Max R. speaking. I had only been in the LC for one year, but I somewhat believed this stuff at the time.
One sister testified how they were driving across the country enjoying Jesus in the Spirit until they reached the Ohio state line, and then suddenly they sensed death and darkness within knowing we were not in the flow of the Spirit ...

This is the kind of utter nonsense picked up from the "flow of oneness" movements, and who is in the flow, and who is not.

.
I guess Kangas got wind of my troubles in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, with Mel Porter, so he called me. He was so burdened for me to come to Anaheim that he literally cried on the phone for me to come.

But he made one mistake that stopped me in my tracks. He said that there was a new flow of the Lord in Anaheim, that he wanted me to join. It sounded good until he said that some brothers weren't in the flow, that some were against the flow.

That turned me off. I didn't say it to him, he was crying for me, but I thought, if the flow is of the Lord then everyone would be swept up in it.

Who knows where I'd be today if I had listened to him. He and I were buddies back then. I would have had an in at the top. Thank God I didn't go.
11-03-2017 04:55 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
What's the bible for then? Is that not a guide, or help ? What about fellowship, is that not a help also? What about helping people to pray for salvation by giving them the words to say, is that being a mediator or a helper? What if a pastor says "if you want to be saved, repeat after me...." - they often do that in churches, are they being mediators and replace Christ? What about gospel preaching? Is an evangelist a go-between because they help a person come to Christ?
Simple answers here.

Do they lead these people to Christ, or do they only lead these people to the ministry of Lee?
11-03-2017 04:50 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Koinonia,

It's possible, I disagree there is "no reason at all to believe" and the JW's are the best example of that.

Take the JW's for example. Most of Christianity has a negative perception of JW's, and look at them, they are still growing around the world.. one of the fastest growing religion, in the world in modern times.

- definitely not popular in Christianity
- founder dead, still putting out the same old material
- yet the fastest growing religion in modern times. Why? Because they are doing things which denominations do not like to do - e.g. door knocking, tract/bible distribution. They are doing something right in terms of how they can grow so much.

The example of JW disproves much of what you are saying. Definitely possible for the local churches to grow in the same way. In fact it's a shame to see so many JW advertising on the street and people door knocking, there are many churches in the area -where are the Christians?
If you are now comparing the LSM/LC's to a cult like the JW's ...

Then there is no reason why they should not have growth!
11-03-2017 04:37 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
What's the bible for then? Is that not a guide, or help ? What about fellowship, is that not a help also? What about helping people to pray for salvation by giving them the words to say, is that being a mediator or a helper? What if a pastor says "if you want to be saved, repeat after me...." - they often do that in churches, are they being mediators and replace Christ? What about gospel preaching? Is an evangelist a go-between because they help a person come to Christ?
There were "The Apostles" who brought us the written word. Are you saying that Witness Lee's messages were equivalent to the written word once for all delivered to the saints?

There is no doubt that the fellowship of saints is helpful, but you have said that WL is unique and particular. Ron Kangas has gone further to say that unlike the average saint Witness Lee has gotten the vision from God and given it to us. You can't have it both ways.
11-02-2017 10:49 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I can use them as an example for the period where they were growing. The point is death of founder and republication is no impediment to growth. The untapped markets of Europe and Asia are ripe with potential particularly for something unique.
Evangelical, do you really think that the Local Church is "unique"? When does it stop being unique? After how many more years?

At best, all of this explosive growth you are predicting is wishful thinking. At worst, it is delusional. Even if the LC grows to 10x its current size, it will still be insignificant. How many LC members were there in Europe in the 1980s? 2,000? 3,000? Have the numbers even returned to that level after so many years? Many of us here have lived through initiative after initiative after initiative to try to get traction for LSM publications. Gospel Marches, Door-Knocking, Rainbow Booklets, Gospel Blitzes, Life-study Radio Program, BFA, Rhema, GTCA, LME, GMR, RBSA, now Germany, etc., etc., etc., etc. Yet, still, hardly anyone knows or reads Witness Lee.

Quote:
Especially as more and more denominations degrade to oblivion, there will be fewer choices for people to turn to. By that time, you won't be able to attend a church without a chip implant to buy and sell, scan hand at the door policy for tithe, probably. It's the year 2050, in most denominations married men are kissing their male partners, openly, the chip implant is used for the tithe, and robots will be preaching the sermon, you know, talking statue (Rev 13:15). That's the situation those in Babylon will find themselves in as things get worse.
11-02-2017 08:36 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Evangelical, your perception of the JW's comes straight from Witness Lee. It is, like much of the rest of his material sadly outdated. If you would do some research into the current situation, you would find that the Watchtower movement is imploding from within, decreasing in numbers, selling meeting halls left and right. They have also officially stopped going door to door.
I can use them as an example for the period where they were growing. The point is death of founder and republication is no impediment to growth. The untapped markets of Europe and Asia are ripe with potential particularly for something unique. Especially as more and more denominations degrade to oblivion, there will be fewer choices for people to turn to. By that time, you won't be able to attend a church without a chip implant to buy and sell, scan hand at the door policy for tithe, probably. It's the year 2050, in most denominations married men are kissing their male partners, openly, the chip implant is used for the tithe, and robots will be preaching the sermon, you know, talking statue (Rev 13:15). That's the situation those in Babylon will find themselves in as things get worse.
11-02-2017 08:33 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Koinonia,

It's possible, I disagree there is "no reason at all to believe".

Take the JW's for example. Most of Christianity has a negative perception of JW's, and look at them, they are still growing around the world.. one of the fastest growing religion, in the world in modern times.

- definitely not popular in Christianity
- founder dead, still putting out the same old material
- yet the fastest growing religion in modern times. Why? Because they are doing things which denominations do not like to do - e.g. door knocking, tract/bible distribution. They are doing something right in terms of how they can grow so much.

The example of JW disproves much of what you are saying. Definitely possible for the local churches to grow in the same way. In fact it's a shame to see so many JW advertising on the street and people door knocking, there are many churches in the area -where are the Christians?
Evangelical, your perception of the JW's comes straight from Witness Lee. It is, like much of the rest of his material, sadly outdated. If you would do some research into the current situation, you would find that the Watchtower movement is imploding from within, decreasing in numbers, selling meeting halls left and right. They have also officially stopped going door to door.
11-02-2017 08:30 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
A lot here, let me see if I understand you correctly.

1. Christ is the mediator because it includes the concept of a probationary sacrifice, appeasement. This is uniquely Christ and WL's ministry should not in any way be confused with this.

2. What Witness Lee's ministry did was get people into the holy of holies. It was a "ministry" not a "mediation" because he was....guiding? assisting? helping?

But here is what confuses me about this. If you read (Truth Lessons, Level 3, Vol. 3, Chapter 6, Section 1) it says that we enter the holy of holies in the blood of Jesus. Through a new and living way initiated through the rent veil (Jesus Crucifixion) and that we come forward to find the ascended Christ. There is no mention of needing a guide or help other than the blood of Jesus, the cross of Christ and the ascended Jesus.

But according to your explanation of Ron Kangas Message Witness Lee is acting as a go between to "help people into the holy of holies".

Also according to you we don't need a propitiating sacrifice to enter the Holy of Holies, but according to Witness Lee's ministry we need the blood of Christ and the Cross of Christ to enter. Which is why Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant.
What's the bible for then? Is that not a guide, or help ? What about fellowship, is that not a help also? What about helping people to pray for salvation by giving them the words to say, is that being a mediator or a helper? What if a pastor says "if you want to be saved, repeat after me...." - they often do that in churches, are they being mediators and replace Christ? What about gospel preaching? Is an evangelist a go-between because they help a person come to Christ?
11-02-2017 08:13 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Evangelical, Witness Lee has been dead for 20 years, and he is becoming less famous--not more famous.

I have regular contact with many Christians in all kinds of Christian groups, including Christians who have left organized groups to look for something more fresh. In my experience, very, very few Christians have ever heard of Witness Lee, and the few who have usually have a negative perception. I have never once met anyone who had received a BFA book.

Your hypothesizing about hype cycle is pure conjecture. There is no reason at all to believe people will become more interested in Witness Lee over time. Most likely, he will become a relic of history, like James Taylor, or a religious anomaly, like the Watchtower Society. As I have already mentioned, LSM coworkers are trying to get members who already have the books to buy more of the same.
Koinonia,

It's possible, I disagree there is "no reason at all to believe" and the JW's are the best example of that.

Take the JW's for example. Most of Christianity has a negative perception of JW's, and look at them, they are still growing around the world.. one of the fastest growing religion, in the world in modern times.

- definitely not popular in Christianity
- founder dead, still putting out the same old material
- yet the fastest growing religion in modern times. Why? Because they are doing things which denominations do not like to do - e.g. door knocking, tract/bible distribution. They are doing something right in terms of how they can grow so much.

The example of JW disproves much of what you are saying. Definitely possible for the local churches to grow in the same way. In fact it's a shame to see so many JW advertising on the street and people door knocking, there are many churches in the area -where are the Christians?
11-02-2017 08:07 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

The problem is you are all only considering America. Consider these places Europe/Africa/Asia, the growth potential, it's huge. There is no reason why what happened in China and America could not be replicated, so we are looking at growth in future not decline.
11-02-2017 07:20 PM
leastofthese
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I think the local churches have a number of features that people might find attractive:
- No priest/pastoral positions
- The ability to function as members of the Body (i.e. participate in a meaningful way)
- No one asking for tithes or donations Sunday after Sunday
- Not liberal - solid biblical foundation and fundamental
- Small group and family orientated - focus on the small group primarily, and a spread of generations from the very young to very old.
- discipline/devotion and a vision/path for continual spiritual growth with others.
I agree with you Evangelical, these are features that people may find attractive, I know they were/are for me. The problem is... your list and the truth of the LC just don't line up...

- No priest/pastor but instead cowtow to LSM and Witness Lee as the head and flow
- No meaningful participation, instead repeat the words of Witness Lee, Amen!
- No one asking for tithes or donations...but you better buy their books, bibles, morning revivals, attend their seminars, etc
- Not liberal - I'll give you that one. Add a dash of racism and misogamy just to be sure
- Solid biblical foundation - Only as interpreted by and approved by Witness Lee
- Small group and family oriented - All show, no real relationships or conversations (as a whole) families torn apart because of the LSM
- Spiritual growth stunted at best, poisoned at worst

I pray for deliverance from the Witness Lee movement
11-02-2017 07:03 PM
A little brother
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Look where we are on the hype cycle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle

We are coming out of the trough of disillusionment (which is what this forum represents) and next is the plateau of productivity. You think it's had its day since the high times of the 60's-80's, but that's what tricks most people.
You got the right word this time - hype. May be your are right that all the high times of the 60's-80's were just inflated expectations. Some did learn from it and moved on to reality.

Meanwhile, no matter how many others tell you WL is not popular at all, you choose to believe his vision is "in most circulation" and every advancement in current Christianity was influenced by him being the MOTA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I think the local churches have a number of features that people might find attractive:
- no priest/pastoral positions
- the ability to function as members of the Body (i.e. participate in a meaningful way)
- no one asking for tithes or donations Sunday after Sunday
- not liberal - solid biblical foundation and fundamental
- small group and family orientated - focus on the small group primarily, and a spread of generations from the very young to very old.
- discipline/devotion and a vision/path for continual spiritual growth with others.
Again, inflated expectations.

Hype <-> Reality
- no priest/pastoral positions <-> Only WL's, aka MOTA's, messages are spoken

- the ability to function as members of the Body (i.e. participate in a meaningful way) <-> Repeating WL's messages again and again is considered the only meaningful way

- no one asking for tithes or donations Sunday after Sunday <-> Yet, the Lord's Movement in Europe/Africa/Asia is waiting for your constribution. Millions of bible need to be printed and distributed.

- not liberal - solid biblical foundation and fundamental <-> Bible became a tool to support WL's ideas

- small group and family orientated - focus on the small group primarily, and a spread of generations from the very young to very old. <-> But don't forget to focus on the good building materials.

- discipline/devotion and a vision/path for continual spiritual growth with others. <-> That spiritual growth path has nothing to do with executing justice and loving mercy, you only need to call on the name of the Lord, pray read, join meetings and trainings, say O Lord Amen Hallelujah.
11-02-2017 06:24 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Hey bro Evan... Just to butt in. What attracted me to the LC was the love.

Of course I came in in Santa Cruz Cal. They were former hippies. They were very loving, with arms wide open.

Then, when I went to a conference in L.A. (before Anaheim) I overheard a few brothers talking about me. They were saying, "He's from Santa Cruz, they aren't in the flow." That struck me as not being accepted, that I was missing something they thought critical to being a true LC.
That's funny. You should have been from Cleveland, Ohio. We heard those whispers all the time.

Here's one very stupid and superstitious, but funny story I heard way back in May 1977 during the Young Galileans movement while I was attending a conference in Chicago, with Max R. speaking. I had only been in the LC for one year, but I somewhat believed this stuff at the time.
One sister testified how they were driving across the country enjoying Jesus in the Spirit until they reached the Ohio state line, and then suddenly they sensed death and darkness within knowing we were not in the flow of the Spirit ...

This is the kind of utter nonsense picked up from the "flow of oneness" movements, and who is in the flow, and who is not.

.
11-02-2017 06:05 PM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Look where we are on the hype cycle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle

We are coming out of the trough of disillusionment (which is what this forum represents) and next is the plateau of productivity. You think it's had its day since the high times of the 60's-80's, but that's what tricks most people.

As we said in the other thread, Bibles for America alone has distributed over 1 million bibles and almost 3 million ministry books. That is just in America.
Overall, there are not many alternatives to denominations. So I think we can expect growth over time, particularly since we are seeking "unchurched Christians" unlike denominations which are trialing gimmicks and marketing.

I think the local churches have a number of features that people might find attractive:
- no priest/pastoral positions
- the ability to function as members of the Body (i.e. participate in a meaningful way)
- no one asking for tithes or donations Sunday after Sunday
- not liberal - solid biblical foundation and fundamental
- small group and family orientated - focus on the small group primarily, and a spread of generations from the very young to very old.
- discipline/devotion and a vision/path for continual spiritual growth with others.

These were some of the things which attracted me,
Hey bro Evan... Just to butt in. What attracted me to the LC was the love.

Of course I came in in Santa Cruz Cal. They were former hippies. They were very loving, with arms wide open.

Then, when I went to a conference in L.A. (before Anaheim) I overheard a few brothers talking about me. They were saying, "He's from Santa Cruz, they aren't in the flow." That struck me as not being accepted, that I was missing something they thought critical to being a true LC.

But the c. in Santa Cruz was great. Brotherly Love was abounding. The meetings were full of the Spirit.

After that conference the elders at Santa Cruz brought in Lee material. Then suddenly morning watch became reading Lee publications, and lost its spirit. They felt like death studies. And the meetings became about Witness Lee. They lost that joyous Spirit, freely flowing in the meetings.

There is no c. in Santa Cruz now. Kill the Spirit, kill the church. Thanks Lee.
11-02-2017 06:00 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Look where we are on the hype cycle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle

We are coming out of the trough of disillusionment (which is what this forum represents) and next is the plateau of productivity. You think it's had its day since the high times of the 60's-80's, but that's what tricks most people.

As we said in the other thread, Bibles for America alone has distributed over 1 million bibles and almost 3 million ministry books. That is just in America.
Overall, there are not many alternatives to denominations. So I think we can expect growth over time, particularly since we are seeking "unchurched Christians" unlike denominations which are trialing gimmicks and marketing.

I think the local churches have a number of features that people might find attractive:
- no priest/pastoral positions
- the ability to function as members of the Body (i.e. participate in a meaningful way)
- no one asking for tithes or donations Sunday after Sunday
- not liberal - solid biblical foundation and fundamental
- small group and family orientated - focus on the small group primarily, and a spread of generations from the very young to very old.
- discipline/devotion and a vision/path for continual spiritual growth with others.

These were some of the things which attracted me, as a good balance between liturgical structure and house church freedoms. Also, the weekly /daily devotionals are a selling point that helps keep everyone involved and on track.. A number of my denominational friends have commented how good it is that everyone in church can grow and learn together in the same way as we all use the same devotionals and bibles - not many churches I know of do this.



As you said before, not many people heard of Lee, and oversupply of material that most people have never heard of before. I would call that "primed for growth". Imagine if that was Coca cola or Apple company, it's the time to buy, I would expect only growth to eventuate. In other words, there's a big "market" out there, as more and more people leave denominations, and I think growth is to be expected.

There's one thing you haven't considered and that is that after death, people become more famous. Just look at Elvis, and others. So increase in popularity is to be expected. To be clear, what is or what should be popular is the ministry material, not the person. We've seen evidence of that, in the figures we've quoted.
Evangelical, Witness Lee has been dead for 20 years, and he is becoming less famous--not more famous.

I have regular contact with many Christians in all kinds of Christian groups, including Christians who have left organized groups to look for something more fresh. In my experience, very, very few Christians have ever heard of Witness Lee, and the few who have usually have a negative perception. I have never once met anyone who had received a BFA book.

Your hypothesizing about hype cycle is pure conjecture. There is no reason at all to believe people will become more interested in Witness Lee over time. Most likely, he will become a relic of history, like James Taylor, or a religious anomaly, like the Watchtower Society. As I have already mentioned, LSM coworkers are trying to get members who already have the books to buy more of the same.
11-02-2017 05:45 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
This is quite disrespectful to regularly say that other children of God reside in Babylon.

You should get the Lee-log out of your own eye before condemning everyone else for there supposed splinters.

It's hard to see you constantly promote Witness Lee as some MOTA, without thinking of idolatry. The exaltation of a man brings back remembrance of Nimrod, the first exalted man in the land of Babylon.
Why? The bible says it:

Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

So is Rev 18:4 being disrespectful?

Look at the size of Catholicism - it's huge, biggest church by far. If Catholicism is Babylon, and if every Catholic is a true believer, then most believers are in Babylon. That's a fact, and maybe you forgot what Luther/Calvin etc actually stood for.
11-02-2017 05:40 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Christs mediation chiefly refers to the atonement. If believers are in Babylon they are already washed in the blood they need not further mediation/atonement. There is no dispute requiring mediation. They need repentance and obedience as wayward children or foolish virgins but virgins nonetheless.
This is quite disrespectful to regularly say that other children of God reside in Babylon.

You should get the Lee-log out of your own eye before condemning everyone else for there supposed splinters.

It's hard to see you constantly promote Witness Lee as some MOTA, without thinking of idolatry. The exaltation of a man brings back remembrance of Nimrod, the first exalted man in the land of Babylon.
11-02-2017 05:37 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
You must have Martin Luther mixed up with Martin Luther King. Sorry Aus this is the US.

I have never heard the name of Martin Luther mentioned in a church, except the LC.

All those hated denominations you regularly deride only mention the name of Jesus Christ. And quite often. But never the name of Lee.
I'm not talking about whose name is mentioned in a church. Overall, in Christianity, Luther is famous. Ask any evangelical, they will know who is Luther and what he said "saved by faith alone". They never knew him in person, or what he said about Jews, they don't really care, because he's a Protestant superhero. If someone says "Luther was heretic", it probably means they are a Catholic. Right? Cannot easily separate the person and what they are known for. That's my point, am I right or wrong? Famous people, and especially famous dead people, get known for what they are good for, their legend grows, their bad is forgotten. Same with Nee, his popularity grew after his death. Most Christians consider him a great person, say good things about him. Only on forums like this can people discuss the negative things, but does it impact most Christians? No, they remember him as the man tortured for his faith in Christ, he becomes a legend, a hero.
11-02-2017 05:34 PM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Thats not what the figures say. People become more popular after death. Just look at Luther,so revered for his contribution,sola fide. But in person he was a crude anti semetic,probably not a nice person. But a revered legend after death.
You must have Martin Luther mixed up with Martin Luther King. Sorry Aus this is the US.

I have never heard the name of Martin Luther mentioned in a church, except the LC.

All those hated denominations you regularly deride only mention the name of Jesus Christ. And quite often. But never the name of Lee.
11-02-2017 05:33 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I'll take atonement or propitiation, both carry the notion of appeasement between two parties and that is all I need to say to disprove any idea that believers in Babylon need appeasement with God. If a child is disobedient I would not say the child is in "dispute" with their father or that a mediator between them is required. This is just not the language a person would normally use. But if they weren't a child, let's say, a criminal or enemy, then yes they would be in dispute and would need a mediator.

Yes you are right regarding Lee's terminology, but I chose to use atonement as that is the most common term I believe in Christianity. All I need is a word that refers to appeasing two parties and either of those words would do, but of course they both have a specific meaning. Is there a word that is more general than atonement or propitiation? If so I would use that word for this discussion. For now I'll settle with appeasement.

Let's say Lee's ministry helps people get into the holy of holies, what is that called? I would call that ministry, not mediation, as mediation of Christ has already brought them in.
A lot here, let me see if I understand you correctly.

1. Christ is the mediator because it includes the concept of a probationary sacrifice, appeasement. This is uniquely Christ and WL's ministry should not in any way be confused with this.

2. What Witness Lee's ministry did was get people into the holy of holies. It was a "ministry" not a "mediation" because he was....guiding? assisting? helping?

But here is what confuses me about this. If you read (Truth Lessons, Level 3, Vol. 3, Chapter 6, Section 1) it says that we enter the holy of holies in the blood of Jesus. Through a new and living way initiated through the rent veil (Jesus Crucifixion) and that we come forward to find the ascended Christ. There is no mention of needing a guide or help other than the blood of Jesus, the cross of Christ and the ascended Jesus.

But according to your explanation of Ron Kangas Message Witness Lee is acting as a go between to "help people into the holy of holies".

Also according to you we don't need a propitiating sacrifice to enter the Holy of Holies, but according to Witness Lee's ministry we need the blood of Christ and the Cross of Christ to enter. Which is why Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant.
11-02-2017 05:14 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Evangelical, most Christians have never even heard of Witness Lee. And most Christians have no interest in the Local Church denomination because they would find the adulation of Witness Lee to be completely bizarre. The people leaving denominations and mega-churches (commonly known as "Dones") are generally looking for something less structured. There are few things as structured and organized as the LC.

Look where we are on the hype cycle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle

We are coming out of the trough of disillusionment (which is what this forum represents) and next is the plateau of productivity. You think it's had its day since the high times of the 60's-80's, but that's what tricks most people.

As we said in the other thread, Bibles for America alone has distributed over 1 million bibles and almost 3 million ministry books. That is just in America.
Overall, there are not many alternatives to denominations. So I think we can expect growth over time, particularly since we are seeking "unchurched Christians" unlike denominations which are trialing gimmicks and marketing.

I think the local churches have a number of features that people might find attractive:
- no priest/pastoral positions
- the ability to function as members of the Body (i.e. participate in a meaningful way)
- no one asking for tithes or donations Sunday after Sunday
- not liberal - solid biblical foundation and fundamental
- small group and family orientated - focus on the small group primarily, and a spread of generations from the very young to very old.
- discipline/devotion and a vision/path for continual spiritual growth with others.

These were some of the things which attracted me, as a good balance between liturgical structure and house church freedoms. Also, the weekly /daily devotionals are a selling point that helps keep everyone involved and on track.. A number of my denominational friends have commented how good it is that everyone in church can grow and learn together in the same way as we all use the same devotionals and bibles - not many churches I know of do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
And as we get further and further away from Witness Lee's death, LSM has less material to publish. After they finish publishing The Collected Works of Witness Lee (next year), they will be left to reprints and HWMR and Ministry Magazine rehashes of the same old, same old.

Do you have any evidence that Witness Lee is becoming more "popular"? Of course not. Because the idea is absurd.
As you said before, not many people heard of Lee, and oversupply of material that most people have never heard of before. I would call that "primed for growth". Imagine if that was Coca cola or Apple company, it's the time to buy, I would expect only growth to eventuate. In other words, there's a big "market" out there, as more and more people leave denominations, and I think growth is to be expected.

There's one thing you haven't considered and that is that after death, people become more famous. Just look at Elvis, and others. So increase in popularity is to be expected. To be clear, what is or what should be popular is the ministry material, not the person. We've seen evidence of that, in the figures we've quoted.
11-02-2017 04:55 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
What figures do you have to support that Lee is becoming less popular and relevant?

It is quite the opposite from my view.

Popularity - Drake and I covered the popularity of Lee's ministry in the "Ron Kangas Message" thread. A steady increase has been observed, worldwide. In making this assessment, consider that this is all without TV-evangelist type promotion, marketing, and all the other things that most ministries use to attract people. I am sure that if we used television and rock music/concerts it would be on-par with any of the so called "mega churches". It is all without the prosperity gospel "give to us and get a double return" tricks as well. It is a wonder we get as many people as we do, considering how the meetings, conferences and such is, as someone here said, "boring". How can we attract thousands of people to a conference and not have an electric guitar or smoke machine?

Relevant - as more and more people are leaving traditional denominations, they are seeking nondenominational alternatives. The house church movement is gaining popularity. You would have to see the number of church-less people we interact with on a weekly basis to know this, and more importantly their reason why. Whenever we interact, they are exposed to the ministry, and therefore it is relevant.

Now from my observation, few denominational churches are going out of their way to seek people who do not attend church. I don't see them on the streets, door knocking, distributing bibles, inviting to homes for dinner, as we are. They merely advertise their Sunday services or events and expect to attract people to them. In comparison, our meeting places are less noticeable and obvious, yet we are interacting with church-less people more than any denomination I would say. With our focus on the small group meetings, we are in fact quite relevant to the increasing number of people who are leaving denominations and seeking alternatives. I believe this is partly responsible for our increase in popularity.
Evangelical, most Christians have never even heard of Witness Lee. And most Christians have no interest in the Local Church denomination because they would find the adulation of Witness Lee to be completely bizarre. The people leaving denominations and mega-churches (commonly known as "Dones") are generally looking for something less structured. There are few things as structured and organized as the LC.

Also, because of declining book sales, LSM has been sending a group of coworkers around the USA and Canada exhorting members to buy multiple sets. The idea is that LC members maintain lending libraries and have multiple copies to give away. Yet, most LC members do not even read the books they own themselves. Their standing order arrivals just pile up and go on shelves that look identical to every other member's.

And as we get further and further away from Witness Lee's death, LSM has less material to publish. After they finish publishing The Collected Works of Witness Lee (next year), they will be left to reprints and HWMR and Ministry Magazine rehashes of the same old, same old.

Do you have any evidence that Witness Lee is becoming more "popular"? Of course not. Because the idea is absurd.
11-02-2017 04:34 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Lee taught that the New Covenant was not primarily "atonement". He taught that "atonement" was an Old Testament truth, the NT reality was the propitiation.

"Propitiation means that you have a problem with another person. You have either offended him or else you owe him something. For instance, if I wrong you or am otherwise in debt to you, a problem exists between us. Because of this problem or debt, you have a demand upon me, and unless your demand is satisfied the problem between us cannot be resolved. Thus, there is the need for propitiation."

Reconciliation includes propitiation. To be reconciled is to be "at one" with God. The atoning sacrifice takes place in the outer court.

In contrast Witness Lee equated the New Covenant with the Holy of Holies. (Life Study of Hebrews, Chapter 39, section 2)

Now if Jesus, our High Priest, is the mediator of the New Covenant (in typology the Holy of Holies) then He is the mediator to those who are no longer in the outer court. Hence they are already redeemed yet still have a problem before entering the Holy of Holies.
I'll take atonement or propitiation, both carry the notion of appeasement between two parties and that is all I need to say to disprove any idea that believers in Babylon need appeasement with God. If a child is disobedient I would not say the child is in "dispute" with their father or that a mediator between them is required. This is just not the language a person would normally use. But if they weren't a child, let's say, a criminal or enemy, then yes they would be in dispute and would need a mediator.

Yes you are right regarding Lee's terminology, but I chose to use atonement as that is the most common term I believe in Christianity. All I need is a word that refers to appeasing two parties and either of those words would do, but of course they both have a specific meaning. Is there a word that is more general than atonement or propitiation? If so I would use that word for this discussion. For now I'll settle with appeasement.

Let's say Lee's ministry helps people get into the holy of holies, what is that called? I would call that ministry, not mediation, as mediation of Christ has already brought them in.
11-02-2017 04:29 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
This is exactly right, and this will become more and more obvious to (some) people as time goes on. Witness Lee has already been dead for 20 years. How irrelevant will his adulation appear in 30 years more? It will look as bizarre to outsiders as the adulation of James Taylor by members of the Exclusive Brethren.

Evangelical has told us that with Witness Lee is the "minister of the age" because he is "popular." That gives some idea of the level of delusion, and bad thing for the LC, Witness Lee is becoming less and less popular and less and less relevant with each passing day.
What figures do you have to support that Lee is becoming less popular and relevant?

It is quite the opposite from my view and I think you are out of touch with reality. Because figures show that traditional church attendance overall is in decline and denominations are losing numbers rapidly, having aging congregations and not evangelizing or having babies enough to make up the losses. The ones less popular and relevant are the aging denominations.

Popularity - Drake and I covered the popularity of Lee's ministry in the "Ron Kangas Message" thread. A steady increase has been observed, worldwide. In making this assessment, consider that this is all without TV-evangelist type promotion, marketing, and all the other things that most ministries use to attract people. I am sure that if we used television and rock music/concerts it would be on-par with any of the so called "mega churches". It is all without the prosperity gospel "give to us and get a double return" tricks as well. It is a wonder we get as many people as we do, considering how the meetings, conferences and such is, as someone here said, "boring". How can we attract thousands of people to a conference and not have an electric guitar or smoke machine?

Consider that there are 1.6 baptisms per year for the average church (see here:
https://www.johnrothra.com/evangelis...sm-rate-of-12/)

We (my church) are baptizing, quite often, 2 -3 people per week! For a church of size 200 people, that is about 100 people per year or a baptism rate of about 50%. According to that website, they would be happy to achieve 12%.

Relevant - as more and more people are leaving traditional denominations, they are seeking nondenominational alternatives. The house church movement is gaining popularity. You would have to see the number of church-less people we interact with on a weekly basis to know this, and more importantly their reason why. Whenever we interact, they are exposed to the ministry, and therefore it is relevant.

Now from my observation, few denominational churches are going out of their way to seek people who do not attend church. I don't see them on the streets, door knocking, distributing bibles, inviting to homes for dinner, as we are. They merely advertise their Sunday services or events and expect to attract people to them. In comparison, our meeting places are less noticeable and obvious, yet we are interacting with church-less people more than any denomination I would say. With our focus on the small group meetings, we are in fact quite relevant to the increasing number of people who are leaving denominations and seeking alternatives. I believe this is partly responsible for our increase in popularity.
11-02-2017 04:28 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Atonement (Lee used a different word, I know, but let's keep it simple) is the first and most important aspect of the new covenant surely as without it no other aspects of the new covenant would be possible. By "direct contradiction" are you trying to say that Lee did not teach this? Have you considered that I may not be contradicting Lee but I have chosen to ignore the other aspects of the new covenant because it is the aspect of atonement which best disproves your view that Lee is a mediator or that mediation is required?
Lee taught that the New Covenant was not primarily "atonement". He taught that "atonement" was an Old Testament truth, the NT reality was the propitiation.

"Propitiation means that you have a problem with another person. You have either offended him or else you owe him something. For instance, if I wrong you or am otherwise in debt to you, a problem exists between us. Because of this problem or debt, you have a demand upon me, and unless your demand is satisfied the problem between us cannot be resolved. Thus, there is the need for propitiation."

Reconciliation includes propitiation. To be reconciled is to be "at one" with God. The atoning sacrifice takes place in the outer court.

In contrast Witness Lee equated the New Covenant with the Holy of Holies. (Life Study of Hebrews, Chapter 39, section 2)

Now if Jesus, our High Priest, is the mediator of the New Covenant (in typology the Holy of Holies) then He is the mediator to those who are no longer in the outer court. Hence they are already redeemed yet still have a problem before entering the Holy of Holies.

"If we put all these together, we find that we are in God's presence, at His oracle, and are meeting with God and having fellowship with Him. This is the New Covenant with the law of life." (Witness Lee, Life Study of Hebrews, Chapter 39, Section 2)
11-02-2017 04:10 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant. Are you saying the New Covenant chiefly refers to atonement? That is a direct contradiction of WL's ministry.
Atonement (Lee used a different word, I know, but let's keep it simple) is the first and most important aspect of the new covenant surely as without it no other aspects of the new covenant would be possible. By "direct contradiction" are you trying to say that Lee did not teach this? Have you considered that I may not be contradicting Lee but I have chosen to ignore the other aspects of the new covenant because it is the aspect of atonement which best disproves your view that Lee is a mediator or that mediation is required?

By the way if anyone believes that believers in Babylon need mediation then they must also by implication believe that believers in Babylon are in fact unbelievers and unsaved. It is well known that Lee taught that believers in Babylon are saved therefore I cannot see how anyone can claim that Lee is a mediator between believers in Babylon and God. Likewise, MOTA Luther was not a mediator. Luther did not "mediate" believers to come out of the Catholic Church.
11-02-2017 03:35 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Christs mediation chiefly refers to the atonement. If believers are in Babylon they are already washed in the blood they need not further mediation/atonement. There is no dispute requiring mediation. They need repentance and obedience as wayward children or foolish virgins but virgins nonetheless.
Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant. Are you saying the New Covenant chiefly refers to atonement? That is a direct contradiction of WL's ministry.
11-02-2017 03:06 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
So your position is that there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ -- refers not to Christ mediating between the saints and God, but only to unbelievers that are God's enemy. Is this correct?

Does that also mean He is no longer our High priest, that this stopped the minute we accepted the New Covenant? Because according to Hebrews as our High priest He is the mediator of a better covenant.

Also, why would the new covenant be between God and His enemies?
Christs mediation chiefly refers to the atonement. If believers are in Babylon they are already washed in the blood they need not further mediation/atonement. There is no dispute requiring mediation. They need repentance and obedience as wayward children or foolish virgins but virgins nonetheless.
11-02-2017 03:01 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meribah View Post
Dear Evangelical,
Based on your correction, it is not you who needs to apologize but rather me. And I do apologize for misinterpreting what you wrote. It was an honest mistake. And I am very glad that it does not say what I thought it said!
No offense taken, peace be with you. We both made mistakes. Sometimes I type fast on a tiny screen and neglect proper punctuations etc.
11-02-2017 02:59 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Wow! You said that some might think Luther was a heretic, might not want to be associated with his ministry, etc. I said that Luther was quoting Paul in his ministry. I never said that Paul said "faith alone" or that Luther said "faith alone". that was you. All you.
I have been talking about the terms 'faith alone'. This is a term of dispute between Protestant and Catholic. It has been attributed to Luther mostly. My point is how can anyone believe in "faith alone" yet say Luther was a heretic? The only ones who believe Luther was a heretic are the ones who do not believe in "faith alone" (i.e. Catholics). We can see how the vision or ministry is tied to the minister and respect of one implies respect of the other. Similarly if someone respected the ground of the church yet neglected Nee and Lee it would be strange.
11-02-2017 02:58 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Thats not what the figures say. People become more popular after death. Just look at Luther,so revered for his contribution,sola fide. But in person he was a crude anti semetic,probably not a nice person. But a revered legend after death.
What "figures"?
11-02-2017 02:56 PM
Meribah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Dear Evangelical,
Based on your correction, it is not you who needs to apologize but rather me. And I do apologize for misinterpreting what you wrote. It was an honest mistake. And I am very glad that it does not say what I thought it said!
11-02-2017 02:51 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
This is exactly right, and this will become more and more obvious to (some) people as time goes on. Witness Lee has already been dead for 20 years. How irrelevant will his adulation appear in 30 years more? It will look as bizarre to outsiders as the adulation of James Taylor by members of the Exclusive Brethren.

Evangelical has told us that with Witness Lee is the "minister of the age" because he is "popular." That gives some idea of the level of delusion, and bad thing for the LC, Witness Lee is becoming less and less popular and less and less relevant with each passing day.
Thats not what the figures say. People become more popular after death. Just look at Luther,so revered for his contribution,sola fide. But in person he was a crude anti semetic,probably not a nice person. But a revered legend after death.
11-02-2017 02:48 PM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meribah View Post
Evangelical, your post clearly says we have to magnify "our ministry brother". Your "ministry brother"is WL. You are clearly magnifying a man. All that the LC does and says is the magnification of a man. It is an obsession.

It is not I who am being dishonest. And dishonest is not even a word that I would choose for you however. Slippery in arguments, yes. But I am certainly not being dishonest here. Go back and read your post. It says what it says.
I see now,sorry,a misunderstanding because lack of comma.
I called Awareness brother as he also called me.
If referring to Lee I might capitalize the B. Apologies.
11-02-2017 01:09 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Instead of engaging in an exercise in subjective validation why not just accept our explanations as representations of what we believe and then we can agree or agree to disagree. Instead the three of us are spending unnecessary time unpacking things we did not say!

Thanks
Drake
You and Evangelical are the only ones on this forum defending or explaining this doctrine. Therefore I feel I need to ask you two the questions since it is the closest thing I can get to a "fair and balanced" account.

However, I am having a lot of difficulty getting answers to the questions.

1. Why is it obvious to you that WL's ministry was "the ministry of the age"?

2. How is anyone supposed to know what these various ages are? Why isn't there just one age, the age of grace, that began when Jesus was resurrected and ends at the 2nd coming. That is Biblical based on Matthew.

3. Evangelical disputes that WL was a mediator between God and Man. But he says that WL was a "go between", that he had the vision from God which he then shared with man. However, he distinguishes WL acting as a go between and a mediator because there was no "dispute" between the wayward Christians who had gone astray. He can only do this by changing definitions of words from dictionary definitions (something WL also did) and by ignoring Bible verses. Not an acceptable explanation for me.

4. If this doctrine is a basis for division then it must be an item of the faith once for all delivered to the saints by the apostles. Therefore I'd like someone to show me this from the NT. No one has.

5. If this doctrine is an item of the faith then it is something that you should defend, confirm, and fight the good fight for. Yet instead you and Evangelical have tried to avoid doing that. Evangelical has said "this is his least favorite topic". You have said that this is not a doctrine it is a word the Lord has spoken to you privately, you are being faithful to what the Lord has shown you.

6. If this is a command the Lord has given you and not for the rest of the Body it could be quite different from what he speaks to others, but even so it shouldn't contradict any other word or command He has given. He has charged us to be one, so I have not received a suitable explanation for this.

7. UntoHim has shown how your explanation and Evangelical's explanation is quite different from the "unedited post" concerning this doctrine. I think you should respond to that post to clear up the confusion.

8. I am very bothered that you seem to want it both ways. You want this doctrine to be something that you can be general about "I am being faithful to what I have been shown, and if you haven't seen the same thing then that is fine" on the other hand you have admitted that this is a cause of division justifying the LRC not taking communion with other Christians and condemning their meetings as being fundamentally flawed.

9. You have said that the entire concept of WL as the Minister of the Age rests on receiving that his ministry was "the ministry of the Age". I have tried to understand the basis of your saying his ministry was "the ministry of the age" and the only response I can recall from you is "it was obvious".

10. You comment on a message that Ron Kangas gave about restoring those that have left the fellowship. Well, this forum is full of people who have left the LRC primarily or at least in part due to this doctrine of MOTA. Why not practice what Ron preaches? Help us to understand why this is not the basis for a damnable heresy?
11-02-2017 12:32 PM
Koinonia
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP,

Your logic is yours, not mine. Your definitions are yours, not mine.

First, I do not agree that I am following a doctrine.... I have explained it before.

I'll be more explicit... I do not care one iota for a "MOTA doctrine" nor to follow one. I care for Christ and that I may be found faithful to what He has shown me.

Drake
Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Luther's age = dead and gone.
Darby's age = dead and gone.
Nee's age = dead and gone.
Lee's age = dead and gone.
This age = still alive ... but without a or the minister of the age. Why?

Hey the Lutheran age died, but his churches are still with us today. People are still following that dead guy.

Same with Darby.

So of course there will always be people following dead guys. And LSM churches will go on like Luther's churches, following dead guys.

It's a personality cult following a dead personality.
This is exactly right, and this will become more and more obvious to (some) people as time goes on. Witness Lee has already been dead for 20 years. How irrelevant will his adulation appear in 30 years more? It will look as bizarre to outsiders as the adulation of James Taylor by members of the Exclusive Brethren.

Evangelical has told us that with Witness Lee is the "minister of the age" because he is "popular." That gives some idea of the level of delusion, and bad thing for the LC, Witness Lee is becoming less and less popular and less and less relevant with each passing day.
11-02-2017 11:57 AM
Meribah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Regarding the "magnifying" Paul did of his ministry, here is a useful discussion and link:

"I magnify mine office - I honor δοξάζω doxazōmy ministry. I esteem it of great importance; and by thus showing that the gospel is to be preached to the Gentiles, that the barrier between them and the Jews is to be broken down, that the gospel may be preached to all people, I show that the office which proclaims this is one of signal honor. A minister may not magnify himself, but he may magnify his office. He may esteem himself as less than the least of all saints, and unworthy to be called a servant of God Ephesians 3:8, yet he may feel that he is an ambassador of Christ, entrusted with a message of salvation, entitled to the respect due to an ambassador, and to the honor which is appropriate to a messenger of God To unite these two things constitutes the dignity of the Christian ministry."


Albert Barnes https://www.studylight.org/commentary/romans/11-13.html


An ambassador delivers the message of the ruler--he does not receive the adulation of a ruler. He receives respect and honor, not exaltation. WL crossed the line and allowed others to magnify HIM---along with Christ. He was Christ's "sidekick" in his mind and those of the LC. Not in mine, however.



And thank you, ZNP, for your comment about editing within 24 hrs. I, too, am waiting.
11-02-2017 11:00 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Christ is not in dispute He is pleading. Your dispute theory is based on the shortcomings of the 7 churches and the solution to those is clearly repentance and turning back to Christ not mediation. Jesus calls them to repent..not mediate. Similarly the Israelites did not find themselves in Babylon because of dispute but because of disobedience.

The term mediation properly applies to Christ since unbelievers are Gods enemy. But the ones spoken of in Babylon are Gods people not enemy. So mediation is not required but obedience.
So your position is that there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ -- refers not to Christ mediating between the saints and God, but only to unbelievers that are God's enemy. Is this correct?

Does that also mean He is no longer our High priest, that this stopped the minute we accepted the New Covenant? Because according to Hebrews as our High priest He is the mediator of a better covenant.

Also, why would the new covenant be between God and His enemies?
11-02-2017 10:56 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
My view that it is not a dispute is based on the verse concerned in Revelation which gives the reason for leaving Babylon and Christ's gracious warning and plea.
My view is this is the definition of Dispute and in blue are verses that are excellent examples of each definition.

Dispute:

1 a :to make the subject of verbal controversy or Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love..
b :to call into question or cast doubt upon Her honesty was never disputed. (They have not obeyed the voice of the Lord their God -- Jeremiah 3:5)
2 a :to struggle against, oppose
b :to contend over ("I myself will fight with you" Jeremiah 21:5)
11-02-2017 10:48 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
meribah,

I believe Evangelical is guilty of punctuation malpractice.... I think he meant to type “our ministry, brother”

Drake
He has 24 hours to edit and correct it.
11-02-2017 10:47 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Evangelical >”I already told you that I disagree with the term mediator, you used that term not me. Now you pretend that I agree with you?”

ZNP,

I raised similar objections when you said I believed or stated certain things that I did not. Perhaps this is because you are trying too hard to fit Evangelical’s and my square peg into the round hole you created in your understanding.

Instead of engaging in an exercise in subjective validation why not just accept our explanations as representations of what we believe and then we can agree or agree to disagree. Instead the three of us are spending unnecessary time unpacking things we did not say!

Thanks
Drake
Read my response in post #156, the only one trying to pretend is Evangelical.
11-02-2017 10:45 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I already told you that I disagree with the term mediator, you used that term not me. Now you pretend that I agree with you?
But let's not lose sight of the relevant conversation to this thread. You saw WL as an intermediary between God and Man, God gave WL the vision, WL gave the vision to us. You didn't agree with the term "dispute", you didn't see God having a dispute with man when they were in division, in Babylon. I provided you with just a few verses that prove without a doubt there was a dispute. So now you change the subject? Should I therefore conclude that you do agree WL was a mediator between God and Man, on the same level as Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and Man and this explains why the LRC separates themselves from all others who do not accept this teaching?

There was no pretense. You changed the subject. I asked a direct question, since you have dropped the complaint about "dispute" does that mean you no longer disagree. Very reasonable question. Mediate is to be a go between between two parties in a dispute. Since you already agreed with the first half it was a reasonable question to ask -- you dropped the complaint about dispute, does that mean you agree with the use of the word "mediate". If you don't agree just say so. The only one guilty of "pretense" here is you.
11-02-2017 10:33 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Direct, unedited QUOTE from http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...yMinister.html

While I appreciate the interesting interpretations and well-crafted mincing of words from our Local Church brothers, I think the viewing public deserves to know what is actually taught and practiced in the Movement. The OFFICIAL position of the Local Church of Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry is clearly delineated above - "ALL CRUCIAL REVELATIONS IN THE BIBLE" have been properly interpreted and expounded upon by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. There is no need to look anywhere else - anything worth knowing or believing has come through the ministry of these men. God has apparently seen fit to grind to halt the 2,000 year tradition of "wise men still seeking Him" and "fulfilling their ministry". Just read the Life-Studies and Recovery Version footnotes. NO NEED OF ANYTHING ELSE. GOD HAS SPOKEN! AND MOST IMPORTANTLY...GOD HAS STOPPED SPEAKING! ANYTHING WORTH KNOWING OR BELIEVING HAS BEEN SPOKEN BY THESE TWO DEAD GUYS!
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Luther's age = dead and gone.
Darby's age = dead and gone.
Nee's age = dead and gone.
Lee's age = dead and gone.
This age = still alive ... but without a or the minister of the age. Why?

Hey the Lutheran age died, but his churches are still with us today. People are still following that dead guy.

Same with Darby.

So of course there will always be people following dead guys. And LSM churches will go on like Luther's churches, following dead guys.

It's a personality cult following a dead personality.
11-02-2017 10:22 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Magnifying ministry is biblical and Paul said it.
You're stretching Romans !!:13.

But my problem is, which is prolly not your problem, is : If I sought to magnify a ministry I'd have to figure out which one.

First. I'd need to know if it is the true ministry. How would I go about doing that? I could look to the leader of that ministry, and consider what he has to say, about his ministry, but that wouldn't hold much water, as he'd clearly be biased toward his own.

I could go to the followers in the ministry, but I'd likely find the same problem, from the devotees of that ministry.

So to know the true ministry clearly I'm going to need outside sources to make a determination.

I could use the Bible, but that's talking about what was going on 2, 3, 4, thousand years ago. The true ministry would have to be something God is doing today, right now.

How do I determine that? It seems now that, without divine intervention I'm lost ; there's no hope to determine the true ministry.

But what does it matter? Maybe magnifying a ministry is Biblical, as bro EvanG holds, but maybe it's not one of those Biblical "Laws." Maybe we don't have to magnify a ministry.

Isn't there some thing, or some one, other, that's more important to magnify, other than a ministry?

I don't know. As I said, without divine intervention I'm lost. And God hasn't sent me a vision, telling me I have to magnify a ministry, or a man. He has, however, taught me not to follow men. He seems to be jealous that way.

He tells me of some of His early followers, way back beforeHis son reconciled everyone to God, that wasn't happy to have Him as their king, and demanded one like the other nations. He says, "so I gave 'em one .... bahahahaha."
11-02-2017 10:12 AM
UntoHim
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Through the labor of our senior brothers, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, we have received a spiritual inheritance of all of the crucial revelations in the Bible that have been opened to the Lord's seekers in the last twenty centuries.
Direct, unedited QUOTE from http://www.afaithfulword.org/article...yMinister.html

While I appreciate the interesting interpretations and well-crafted mincing of words from our Local Church brothers, I think the viewing public deserves to know what is actually taught and practiced in the Movement. The OFFICIAL position of the Local Church of Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry is clearly delineated above - "ALL CRUCIAL REVELATIONS IN THE BIBLE" have been properly interpreted and expounded upon by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. There is no need to look anywhere else - anything worth knowing or believing has come through the ministry of these men. God has apparently seen fit to grind to halt the 2,000 year tradition of "wise men still seeking Him" and "fulfilling their ministry". Just read the Life-Studies and Recovery Version footnotes. NO NEED OF ANYTHING ELSE. GOD HAS SPOKEN! AND MOST IMPORTANTLY...GOD HAS STOPPED SPEAKING! ANYTHING WORTH KNOWING OR BELIEVING HAS BEEN SPOKEN BY THESE TWO DEAD GUYS!
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11-02-2017 09:31 AM
awareness
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meribah View Post
You see? It is clearly exactly as I said. WL is a mediator between them and the Word. Because he has so carefully planted the seeds of his doctrine and his special position throughout the life studies and the footnotes, these individuals are caught in a circle. They are completely unable to see and find the way out. We have all spent quite a bit of time with them here going round and round in their obstinate reasoning. What is so clear to us is not even there to them. They are obedient and docile. They glory in this. They have been blinded.

And you see that Evangelical's last statement above was that they needed to magnify their leader. This is not biblical and I think it definitely falls into the category of complete adulation and idolatry. I am unable to think of any verse in the Bible that tells us to magnify our Earthly leaders. This is definitely Chinese culture. It most certainly is not mine and it is not Christian culture either. Our brother Paul taught against these kinds of things. But they refuse to see it. They have turned away to their own tales and a person. They have itching ears that only care to hear what WL has to say. So in the end, they must be left as they are. The rest of us are glad that we saw the light and that we walk in liberty. We can only shake our heads in pity at what they have chosen.
Hear! Hear! Tell it like it is Meribah!
11-02-2017 08:53 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I ask again..where is the verse where Paul says faith alone? You said Luther was quoting Paul. That keyword "alone" is the only thing separating Luther from Catholic. The term is very unique to Luther and Paul never used it.
Wow! You said that some might think Luther was a heretic, might not want to be associated with his ministry, etc. I said that Luther was quoting Paul in his ministry. I never said that Paul said "faith alone" or that Luther said "faith alone". that was you. All you.
11-02-2017 07:49 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Evangelical >”I already told you that I disagree with the term mediator, you used that term not me. Now you pretend that I agree with you?”

ZNP,

I raised similar objections when you said I believed or stated certain things that I did not. Perhaps this is because you are trying too hard to fit Evangelical’s and my square peg into the round hole you created in your understanding.

Instead of engaging in an exercise in subjective validation why not just accept our explanations as representations of what we believe and then we can agree or agree to disagree. Instead the three of us are spending unnecessary time unpacking things we did not say!

Thanks
Drake
11-02-2017 07:41 AM
Ohio
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's right, just like Christians left the pure word of God and fell into Catholicism and thanks to the vision which Luther ministered people could be free from that and Moses brought the people out of Egypt, and Paul out of Judaism. Were any of these men perfect? Of course not. But they had a vision from God (it would seem).
Did you ever study church history?

Two primary ingredients of the RCC that opened the door for endless corruption were these:
  1. Belief that the Pope was descended from Peter as the Minister of the Age
  2. Belief that their Catholic oneness superseded other tenets of the faith
These two errors opened the door for all manner of evil to later come in. These two formed a wrong foundation for them to build on.

Don't you think that many men of God protested errors in the early church? What silenced them? Firstly the belief that the Bishop of Rome was the MOTA. As such he drew his authority from Peter, the first MOTA, who was given the Keys of the Kingdom from Jesus Himself. Secondly, the demands to be ONE, above all else, silenced the conscience of those who watched errors slowly creep in. These errors opened the gates of hades, and plunged the western world into the dark ages.

The noble Exclusive Brethren followed the same course. Read their history. JNDarby was their first MOTA, then Raven, Taylor Sr, Taylor Jr, and today Hales. So many divisions, yet no group talked more "oneness" then them.

Sound familiar? The elevation of any minister to MOTA status confers on him infallibility. They have no peers, and are accountable to no one.
11-02-2017 07:35 AM
Drake
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meribah View Post
Evangelical, your post clearly says we have to magnify "our ministry brother". Your "ministry brother"is WL. You are clearly magnifying a man. All that the LC does and says is the magnification of a man. It is an obsession.

It is not I who am being dishonest. And dishonest is not even a word that I would choose for you however. Slippery in arguments, yes. But I am certainly not being dishonest here. Go back and read your post. It says what it says.
meribah,

I believe Evangelical is guilty of punctuation malpractice.... I think he meant to type “our ministry, brother”

Drake
11-02-2017 07:23 AM
Meribah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Evangelical, your post clearly says we have to magnify "our ministry brother". Your "ministry brother"is WL. You are clearly magnifying a man. All that the LC does and says is the magnification of a man. It is an obsession.

It is not I who am being dishonest. And dishonest is not even a word that I would choose for you however. Slippery in arguments, yes. But I am certainly not being dishonest here. Go back and read your post. It says what it says.
11-02-2017 06:01 AM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
“Luther taught that salvation and, consequently, eternal life are not earned by good deeds but are received only as the free gift of God's grace through the believer's faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin.”

If you are concerned about sounding like Luther, then quote Paul from Ephesians instead:

“4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

The reason you may think he "sounded like a heretic" is because you were misquoting him.

But let's not lose sight of the relevant conversation to this thread. You saw WL as an intermediary between God and Man, God gave WL the vision, WL gave the vision to us. You didn't agree with the term "dispute", you didn't see God having a dispute with man when they were in division, in Babylon. I provided you with just a few verses that prove without a doubt there was a dispute. So now you change the subject? Should I therefore conclude that you do agree WL was a mediator between God and Man, on the same level as Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and Man and this explains why the LRC separates themselves from all others who do not accept this teaching?

I ask again..where is the verse where Paul says faith alone? You said Luther was quoting Paul. That keyword "alone" is the only thing separating Luther from Catholic. The term is very unique to Luther and Paul never used it.

I already told you that I disagree with the term mediator, you used that term not me. Now you pretend that I agree with you? My view that it is not a dispute is based on the verse concerned in Revelation which gives the reason for leaving Babylon and Christ's gracious warning and plea. Christ is not in dispute He is pleading. Your dispute theory is based on the shortcomings of the 7 churches and the solution to those is clearly repentance and turning back to Christ not mediation. Jesus calls them to repent..not mediate. Similarly the Israelites did not find themselves in Babylon because of dispute but because of disobedience.

The term mediation properly applies to Christ since unbelievers are Gods enemy. But the ones spoken of in Babylon are Gods people not enemy. So mediation is not required but obedience.
11-02-2017 05:50 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Please quote the verse from Paul that says saved by faith alone then. The term faith alone was not prevalent until the reformation.
“Luther taught that salvation and, consequently, eternal life are not earned by good deeds but are received only as the free gift of God's grace through the believer's faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin.”

If you are concerned about sounding like Luther, then quote Paul from Ephesians instead:

“4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

The reason you may think he "sounded like a heretic" is because you were misquoting him.

But let's not lose sight of the relevant conversation to this thread. You saw WL as an intermediary between God and Man, God gave WL the vision, WL gave the vision to us. You didn't agree with the term "dispute", you didn't see God having a dispute with man when they were in division, in Babylon. I provided you with just a few verses that prove without a doubt there was a dispute. So now you change the subject? Should I therefore conclude that you do agree WL was a mediator between God and Man, on the same level as Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and Man and this explains why the LRC separates themselves from all others who do not accept this teaching?
11-02-2017 05:41 AM
Evangelical
Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
What about the Apostle Paul and Romans? Your hypothetical doesn't make the slightest sense since Luther was quoting and expounding Paul.
Please quote the verse from Paul that says saved by faith a