Originally Posted by Paul Cox

Haven't had the time or heart to figure out what ya'll are fighting about. But I did go to the Life-study of Job, chapter 12. This caught my eye:

"Suppose there is a problem between you and your spouse, You should not do anything, for whatever you do will be in the realm of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You should simply pray-read Galatians 2:20."

I don't know, but in reading Paul he seems to talk about loving and submitting. Is that doing nothing but pray-reading? Address all your problems by just pray-reading scripture? I can't believe we fell for that sewer water for so many years.

Now if a couple will address all their problems only by pray-reading the bible, that will make their marriage only good within the context of the Local Church. It still doesn't teach them what it means to submit to and love one another.

If one is in the Local Church and the other one is not, the Lee zealot will address all issues by clinging to and pray-reading Lee's ministry. That only opens the gap bigger and bigger between these two Christian spouses. The one who clings to Lee's ministry will only grow colder and colder to the actual needs of the other. It solves nothing.

Lee's top lieutenants followed his prescription about praying-reading all problems away. That's why they were such a complete failure in dealing with those who disagree with them, both within and without. Except for trying to get everybody to agree with them, they have no other people skills. They can't claim to be "god-men." They haven't even learned yet how to be men-men.

P.C.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In your example with Minoru Chen you were the one trying to stifle his opinion. No doubt, his opinion affected everyone within the four walls of the meeting hall, but that is true of hundreds of other opinions. Why does the meeting start at 10 and not 9:30? That is someone's opinion. Why is the meeting hall kept at 68 degrees and not 70? Why do we have 2 meetings on Sunday and not one longer meeting? Why can't we share from the book Lord of the Rings in the meetings? Why don't we sing more Led Zeppelin songs during the meeting?

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Is it different when you do it?

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP and awareness discussed the "question of balance" which history has wrestled with, vis-a-vis whether the formation of Israel balanced the loss during the holocaust. awareness faulted God for allowing the holocaust, while ZNP pointed to the nation of Israel which resulted. I added to the mix noting that diasporic Jews at heart cared most for their children's children's children, and most ashkenazi Jews saw the self-determination afforded by the Palestinian homeland worth the price. It is a well-known fact, that as a people, the real Jews put their children first before themselves.

Originally Posted by Ohio

On a personal note, about the only genre of music that I ever really loved was the british progressive rock of the late '60s early '70s, of which the Moody Blues excelled.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you confusing the US constitution with the Bible?

Originally Posted by Suannehill

Very good point!

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I don't know if cutting and pasting large amounts of LSM online material is very wise. They claim all copyrights and all rights reserved for any use of their material, even personal use.

And those boogers have no compunction against suing anyone, brothers in the Lord or not. They'd sue Jesus himself ... or the apostle Paul .. for using their material....

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am taking it easy, I was just warning him of what would take place.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why are you posting this drivel, what is your point? Are you saying that this is truly an exposition of the book of Job that opens up this part of God's word to us? Or are you just asking to be torn limb from limb by the mockers and scorners?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why are you posting this drivel, what is your point? Are you saying that this is truly an exposition of the book of Job that opens up this part of God's word to us? Or are you just asking to be torn limb from limb by the mockers and scorners?

Originally Posted by awareness

Yer perhaps Lee artificial sweetener .... maybe Lee-tevia ...

And that would be LA (Lee Anonymous) meetings ... "My name is Harold, and I'm a Lee-oholic ,,,"

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Does that mean that I am 99.9% Lee free?

Is that an apology for what is clearly a very ugly insult?

In our AA meetings we can share our testimonies of how we have gone 15 or 20 or even 25 years without imbibing any Lee.

Originally Posted by awareness

By comparison if you are Lee-esgue ... yer only maybe 1% of 1% Lee-esgue ... It's all relative....

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, basically he starts this message saying I want to give a further word that has nothing to do with Job. Can you imagine that people actually tolerated this?...

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay, bro ZNP will like this one. In the 16th chapter of Lee's Life-Study of the book of Job, Lee brings in the Triune God and dispensing.

Lee just can't help his myopia of the Bible.

The problem is the book of Job speaks of "the sons of God." The trinity is the Father Son and Holy Spirit, so where does the sons of God fit into the trinity? Are the sons of God grouped into threes? If so, the Book of Job doesn't mention it.

But Lee still sees the dispensing of the triune God in the book of Job.

Basically, Lee sees things that aren't there in the book of Job in order to push is "God's Economy" theology. His Job reference, as shown at the beginning of this chapter is Job 10:13a : "Hold your peace, let me alone, that I may speak..." which is out in left field in his message.

I'll try to link the 16th chapter of the Life-Study of Job, but I've noticed that links on the online Life-Studies don't work well. So if the link doesn't work, find your way to the Life-Study of Job and go to the 16th chapter.

Click here -> http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...3%28%40K%27%0A

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP and awareness discussed the "question of balance" which history has wrestled with, vis-a-vis whether the formation of Israel balanced the loss during the holocaust. awareness faulted God for allowing the holocaust, while ZNP pointed to the nation of Israel which resulted. I added to the mix noting that diasporic Jews at heart cared most for their children's children's children, and most ashkenazi Jews saw the self-determination afforded by the Palestinian homeland worth the price. It is a well-known fact, that as a people, the real Jews put their children first before themselves.

The Moody Blues analogy came to me when I remembered that the "Children's" album (OBW's avatar) preceded the "Question" album, (Sons to Glory's Avatar) and I pointed out that in the greater scheme of things, both God and the Jews placed their "children" first, thus outweighing the "question of balance" debate which has long existed.

On a personal note, about the only genre of music that I ever really loved was the british progressive rock of the late '60s early '70s, of which the Moody Blues excelled.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you confusing the US constitution with the Bible?

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I thought they were just exercising their right to freedom of speech within their own four walls?

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

I miss that eight-track in the glove compartment of my '73 Dodge Polara.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Thanks Ohio, I'm enjoying the great grand-Moodies as I type. (wikipedia and youtube are my friend)

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Which is why the LSM push to make WL the MOTA and stifle all other voices is so negative. If WL was merely one brother and you had many others speaking as well it would be wonderful and healthy. Once you lose the balance of the Body then the ship tips over and sinks. Gene Gruhler was something of a one issue brother when I was in the LRC, he seemed to always give conferences on the children's work. As just one of many voices that was wonderful and healthy. the Body needs balance.

Originally Posted by Ohio

If you disagree with ZNP's "Question of Balance," concerning the plight of Israel, then remember the prequel was salvation for their "Children's children's children."

Sorry about getting carried away with that Blues theme. I'm sure OBW and STG can relate.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Job clearly states that God answered Job and that Job received that answer, accepted it, repented, and then all of his suffering was resolved.

Originally Posted by OBW

Sorry, but I couldn’t resist a little of this thread. I am quick to admit that the Moody Blues were just secular rock stars who had a philosophical bent. Probably more like 5 philosophical bents.

Originally Posted by zeek

The Book of Job is the problem of evil in parable form. Struck by evil, Job appeals to the God of justice....

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You are wrong, I have moved on to 8 track now, I no longer use vinyl.

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

Once a brother returned from an LSM "training" where Lee had been pontificating over one of the minor prophets. The brother gleefully reported to me: "Well, he did it again."

Did what again?

"Saw the church-life in the book of_____"

Lee "saw" the church-life in almost every verse in the Bible. When he couldn't, then the writer had a problem. He was a one issue man.

Recently I had given to me a footnoted bible by Jimmy Swargart, another one issue man. In just about every footnote there is the revelation of the Cross of Calvary. Not to take away from the Cross of Calvary (God forbid), but I believe God was trying to show us more than just that.

Neither do I think that God's whole intent was to show us the "church-life" in Job and every other book in the bible.

But in Lee's case, he had to make his version of the church-life supreme, lest anyone dared to think of leaving. You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.

P.C.

Originally Posted by awareness

So our dearest brother ZNP is being Lee-esque with his interpretation of the book of Job. His needle is stuck on one track : Job = Jesus ... Job = Jesus...

But in the end : Col 3:11b "but Christ is all, and in all."

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Kinda like a consolation prize?

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

Once a brother returned from an LSM "training" where Lee had been pontificating over one of the minor prophets. The brother gleefully reported to me: "Well, he did it again."

Did what again?

"Saw the church-life in the book of_____"

Lee "saw" the church-life in almost every verse in the Bible. When he couldn't, then the writer had a problem. He was a one issue man.

Recently I had given to me a footnoted bible by Jimmy Swargart, another one issue man. In just about every footnote there is the revelation of the Cross of Calvary. Not to take away from the Cross of Calvary (God forbid), but I believe God was trying to show us more than just that.

Neither do I think that God's whole intent was to show us the "church-life" in Job and every other book in the bible.

But in Lee's case, he had to make his version of the church-life supreme, lest anyone dared to think of leaving. You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.

P.C.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds a lot like my good friend awareness.

Originally Posted by Suannehill

Ghandi was actually raised in Africa in a Christian school. The concepts of "non violent protest" and equality were actually learned there. There were no such teachings in India. People stayed in the caste that they were born into. You did not join the other caste for any reason.
Ghandi liked Christ but was not so impressed with Christians.

Originally Posted by awareness

Sort of. But when Satan showed up at the gathering of the sons of God did God act like Satan had been judged?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In Message 3 of the Life Study of Job, WL said "The Bible shows us that although after God judged Satan, God still allowed him to be free to accuse, attack, damage, persecute, and martyr His saints"

Awareness, isn't this what you are saying?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This section on Israel being grafted in is concluded in Rom 11:33 “O the dept of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” This quote parallels Job 35:7. And Rom. 11:34 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Parallels Job 21:22. Rom. 11:35 – “Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?” is quoted from Job 41:11

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is a non sequitor. As a direct result of the holocaust Israel petitioned for and received the right to set up the nation of Israel. The return to Israel by the Jews in 1948 was definitely something that Israel and others did about the holocaust.

Originally Posted by Suannehill

Ghandi liked Christ but was not so impressed with Christians.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

...

Did God also create Mahtma Ghandi that all may see, not just the "christian" countries, but even the non Christian that there is none beside God and that He does all these things?

Originally Posted by awareness

The answer in a nutshell of Jesus was to just surrender to it.

And Lord knows many times, during suffering beyond anything I've ever contemplated, I've found victory in surrendering.

Originally Posted by awareness

The Jews during the Holocaust put God on trial for being indifferent to their suffering, and found Him guilty. Then afterwards went back to their respective cells to pray.

As humans we just have to accept the indifference of God. And there's nothing we can do about it.

Originally Posted by awareness

But I think Witness Lee done a bad job on the book of Job Life-Study precisely because he couldn't admit the truths revealed in Job, between God, the devil, and Job and his family.

It's hard to admit that God can be indifferent to suffering and misfortune. But we see it all the time. We saw it recently with hurricane Irene, over 40 died, and now with the drought and fires in Texas, even after over 3000 believers in the Bible as the word of God praying for rain. God said no ... and here's some fires.

The Jews during the Holocaust put God on trial for being indifferent to their suffering, and found Him guilty. Then afterwards went back to their respective cells to pray.

As humans we just have to accept the indifference of God. And there's nothing we can do about it.

The answer in a nutshell of Jesus was to just surrender to it.

And Lord knows many times, during suffering beyond anything I've ever contemplated, I've found victory in surrendering.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I cast my lot in with awareness...

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is truly evil is not the earthquake, but it is the city that was built on sand (Kobe) which was over a fault zone. A city that any geologist could have told you would be destroyed by liquefaction when the earthquake hits. Yet they build it in blindness.

What is truly evil is taking hundreds of millions of dollars to wall up the Mississippi river when any geologist could tell you that the result would be total catastrophe if a hurricane hits.

What is truly evil is fighting terrorism with little remote control airplanes that anyone could afford to build. Teaching the entire world of potential terrorists that you don't need a 747 to strike terror into a US city.

These calamities demonstrate that our societies and civilization is built on sand, not on the rock. We did not listen to these sayings of Jesus and we did not do them. This is why the calamities are evil.

Originally Posted by awareness

.....I'm glad you brought this up. So what and who belongs on this forum? I thought anyone out or in the local church belongs on this forum.....

But if not, if there are perimeters that limit exLCers from sharing what they've become since the local church, and they have to come out with only certain beliefs and points of view, please let us know.

Maybe I don't belong on this forum.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Blue"]Zeek, no God did not create everything.

God did not create sin or greed or evil for that matter.

Originally Posted by Leomon

You can look up any interpretation on the "create evil" verse.

It does not mean moral evil.

But you properly look into the words "evil" was translated from it means more "calamity"

I think it is consistent with the gospels and OT that God created calamity in that sense. He has every right to test those to see if they are worthy of him. We see in Israel that he allowed the Babylonians to take over Isreal. So that he could have a remnant that would follow him and learn from their mistakes.

Since the beginning God gave human being the choice of allowing or dis-obeying. Tree of knowledge and to partake of it can be interpreted in every sense as calamity for Adam and Eve.

God will punish those who dis-obey him. I dont see how that is evil. God can take away what he gave you, I dont see what is evil about that.

So stop using that verse to try to convince others that this means Moral evil.

It simply means that God will punish those who dis-obey.

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)


This verse is to convey opposites. The opposite or prosperity is not moral evil. It is unpeace, or disaster.

Originally Posted by awareness

How does the context negate "I do these things, I create evil."

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I stuck this thread in the “apologetics” area so that maybe we could keep all the discussions within the general realm of Christian apologetics and theology.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Zeek, no God did not create everything.

God did not create sin or greed or evil for that matter.

Did God create the Jet Airplane? Did God create the evilness in those men that flew the Jet Airplane into the World Trade Center?

This is a philosophical bottomless pit that has no place here on this thread, and probably not on this forum. It will only lead us to discussions of the "endless questions" that the Word warns us not to delve into.

Originally Posted by awareness

It's not a matter of God. God is God. "I am that I am" ... and it's not our business to God what he is.

It's rather a matter of depictions of God, and that is the human part of the Bible. Men come up with depictions of God, in the Bible, that defame God, and make him a heartless monster, meaner than the meanest human ; a serial killer ; genocidal, with indifference to suffering, even to innocents. Like telling the Israelite's "kill everything that takes breath," even the livestock and critters ... even after inscribing on stone "Thou shalt not kill."

Originally Posted by awareness

The best verse in the book of Job :

Job 42:5-6 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Funny, he was already in dust and ashes ....

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm like Popeye : "I 'yams whats I ams, and dats all that I 'yams" ...

I'm an ex-local churcher, and my tree was bent by that storm. And shaped by it.

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay bro UntoHim, thanks for moving things around to better facilitate discussions.

I think bro Z and others of us are having a great discussion. I'm not reading past bro Z, nor is he past me. We're just struggling to make our points. And good points have been made

Originally Posted by Leomon

Were jumping back into the topic of Elvis has left the building. After all that still the same...

Evil is good gone wrong. If pure evil existed then I would put into question whether or not that was created from a all good God. But I cannot. Anything anyone has ever done, any evil act can be rationalized to benefit one group/person. unless some kind of irrational mental disability was present.

God did not create evil. God created the possibility of choice which allowed for "good gone wrong".

And were back to free will again lookie here..

Originally Posted by Leomon

Why do you keep quoting that awareness.

Do you like taking that verse out of context?

Originally Posted by awareness

God says in Isaiah 45:7 "I create evil."

Originally Posted by zeek

Consider the following syllogism.

God created everything.
Evil is a thing.
Therefore, God created evil.

If God did not create everything, then someone else could have created evil. But then you have two creators and hence, reality is dualistic and God is not all powerful.

There is also a theological tradition that evil does not really exist. Evil is merely the absence of good. If so, there is no devil or Satan.

Originally Posted by awareness

God says in Isaiah 45:7 "I create evil."

Originally Posted by zeek

Here's what the book says:
Satan says to God "stretch out your hand... and he will curse your face. The Lord answers, " Very well... he is in your hands."
How can we explain this close association between the Lord and Satan? Satan says if you stretch out your hand, and God answers "very well" as if agreeing to strike Job, but then says "he is in your hands". It's as if God's hands are synonymous with Satan's.
As awareness has pointed out, how could the omnisicent Lord not already know what was in Job's heart? At the very least, we must admit that God allows evil. But if we are not to lapse into Gnostic dualism, how can we not but admit that God, the ultimate source of everything must also be the ultimate source of evil?

Originally Posted by Igzy

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is a load of silliness.

God neither becomes a demon nor masquerades as one.

What Job is about is God stripping Job of everything but God himself. No matter what happens, God remains good, and if you cling to God you will eventually experience ultimate, infinite, eternal good. But if you fall for the line of the short-sighted unbelievers who blanche at the stripping process, you will be deceived and miss out.

Under no circumstances are we to view God as a demon. Jesus didn't, and he suffered more than anyone.

We are allowed to ask "why" though. As in "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

God knows better than us. The sooner we figure that out the sooner we'll drop these man-centered interpretations of Job.

Don't get me wrong. If what happened to Job happened to me I'd be screaming about it, too. But eventually the correct response is "Holy is the Lord, Amen!" That's just the way it is.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Don't get me wrong. If what happened to Job happened to me I'd be screaming about it, too. But eventually the correct response is "Holy is the Lord, Amen!" That's just the way it is.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Under no circumstances are we to view God as a demon. Jesus didn't, and he suffered more than anyone.

Originally Posted by zeek

Concerning Job, Jack Miles, Jesuit seminarian and Distinguished Professor of English and Religious Studies at the University of California, Irvine, commenting on the book of Job, said “If God occasionally becomes a demon, mankind must disobey him. If God is capable of testing mankind by masquerading as a demon, then paradoxically mankind can only please God and pass the test by defying God.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ok Harold, ZPN and others here, it's time to move forward on this thread. I think everybody has a real good handle on where you both sit, and it's getting rather tedious watching both of you talk over and past each other.

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes, you are so right. Back then it was a different humankind than today. It was a humankind that was very limited in their understanding of the cosmos. And a humankind that was dominated by mythologies of all kinds ... that were considered true. Mythologies that we now look back on as lies.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I'm glad Ohio finds this thread valuable, considering that he declared the questions that led to it as "inappropriate for the forum".

Originally Posted by Ohio

This thread has been particularly valuable concerning the book of Job, and worthy of further review.

Originally Posted by Ohio

But not the "humankind" that you so often speak of awareness. This is a different "kind" of humankind.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is why I refer to the Bible as "the word of God". I cannot believe that when God inspired this word that Jesus was not His focus. Also, I think I have done an adequate job of presenting why I believe that God's answer to this question is Jesus.

Your answer here is a matter of "moving the goalposts". You asked for NT verse references that connect Job with my interpretation. I gave you that. You then respond that it doesn't matter because somehow you know that this was not what the writer was thinking. That reasoning would negate much of what we consider the Bible and the word of God.

This is the crux of the dispute. It is not WL teachings, or the use of metaphor, or providing NT references, or misreading the language. The dispute is that, despite all of the evidence, you believe that this is the word of man and I believe it is the word of God.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Excellent summary of events and conclusion, and this what I find to be so tragic with some of the saints who have over-reacted to LC indoctrinations. In their attempts to purge their souls of all WL/LC teachings and practices, they have unfortunately discarded the good with the bad.

There are other posters who seem to think nothing of it, since they both share the same distaste for the LRC, but then they become troubled with me when I discuss the need to purge the leaven of WL, exercising discernment between the good and the worthless.

My journey has not been easy, but thank the Lord that I left both the church of Rome and the church of Anaheim still believing the Bible was the word of God. This thread has been particularly valuable concerning the book of Job, and worthy of further review.

Originally Posted by awareness

ZNP I really like you. You're as wacky as I am. Job 7:17 is not a reference to Jesus. It's clearly a reference to humankind....

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is why I refer to the Bible as "the word of God"...

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro Z you are just full of surprises...

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The word "man" in that verse refers to mortal, the question is what does the word "magnify" refer to? What does it mean that God magnifies man?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have not gone into detail on my take on this book, I have only given an overview...

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is man that thou [God] shouldst magnify him?

Originally Posted by awareness

ZNP I really like you. You're as wacky as I am. Job 7:17 is not a reference to Jesus. It's clearly a reference to humankind....

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Job 7:17 is a direct reference to Jesus

Originally Posted by awareness

So God wasn't really pretending, all present knew that God is omniscient, and God was just making small talk with Satan, like humans do. All the writers of Job has done is to anthropomorphize God.

And what about "the sons of God?" We assume they were angels but that's just conjecture. The sons of God gather before the Lord, and Satan takes the spotlight.

ZNP says the book of Job is about building a man, Jesus, Jesus is a son of God, but he's not mentioned at all. Instead Satan gets the spotlight, and must be a son of God too, if he's allowed there, but the sons of God is not mentioned anymore, and Jesus, the supposed man God is building, is not mentioned at all.

Is this not odd?

Originally Posted by awareness

I did not mis-speak. I just have gotten there yet..

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Perhaps you misspoke?

Originally Posted by awareness

So you do see that God is pretending with Satan, to not know what he's been up to? And Satan, acting like a buffoon, thinks God hasn't been keeping an omniscient eye on him?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I do not see God being portrayed as a Buffoon. I do see God manipulating Satan to do His will. I do see Satan portrayed as a pawn in God's plan. I see that Job has caught God's attention and now God wants to work with Job, so He is focusing Satan on Job to do His bidding. If you wanted to call God a "puppet master" i would find that about the worst of what I would think to be reasonable observations. If you want to say that Satan is a "tool" and that God is a master craftsman, that I would find a much more acceptably worded observation.

But no, I do not see Buffoon. I don't see God portrayed as a clown, or as an ill educated person, or as a fool.

Originally Posted by awareness

Do you really want me to do this? I've had less intelligent people than you see it in Job. Shouldn't you be able to see it?

Just read Job and remember that God is suppose to be omniscient. Then answer me what this conversation is all about :

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well then, clear it up for us.

What did you mean when you said "it really makes God, and the devil, buffoons."?

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry ZNP you've taken me all wrong. I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about how God, and the devil, is depicted in Job. Which is two different things.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64

Originally Posted by OBW

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.

Originally Posted by OBW

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try.

Originally Posted by OBW

Your method of interpreting scripture does not seem to actually deal with the scripture being used. You make statements about God suggesting we should have an arm of strength. Or that it is really about the One New Man. But when I can't see how you get from the verses you use to that position, you just mock me and do not give a response. That is what is Lee-esque. Say your piece, refuse questions, and mock those with different interpretations. It would appear that your interpretation is based upon something that is not being revealed. Until you reveal it, there is no rational basis to accept your position.

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.

Originally Posted by awareness

I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.

Originally Posted by awareness

Well okay bro Z. I see your point/s. Good work, but you are still stretching the book of Job into "the purpose of man is to express God," and that the book of Job is to build a man. That is clearly not what the author of Job intended.

The fact that the author of Hebrews used Job to make his point does not change the book of Job into pictures we wish to design upon it.

But good and harmless work bro Z. I knew you'd come thru eventually.

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

This is one of the questions that Job addresses to God. In Post #126 (all referenced posts are from the thread on Elvis has left the building). I lumped this verse into the first part of the question as “What is the point to life?” Later, in God’s answer, I put his answer into two parts. In part 1 I said that the answer would be that all the troubles and suffering in the book of Job were God laying the foundation in Job’s life, not annulling all the work he had done. In part 2 I said that the answer is that we were made in the image and likeness of God, the point of life is to express God.

So here is the section in Hebrews that quotes Job 7:17
2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Clearly, this verse is quoted in Hebrews as referring to Jesus. And, the reference is about how man doesn’t look like anything, he was made lower than the angels so that he could go through the suffering of death and taste death for every man, and that passing through that he was crowned with Glory and honor. This is also what I said the book of Job is about. The sufferings that Job passes through lay the foundation for his life, and for him to be a man in the image of God.

In Post #129, Awareness asks “still weak. Where is the man God is makin.” The man is here, referenced in Hebrews 2:5-9. The writer says clearly “we see Jesus” referring, in part to this reference in Job.

In Post #135 I said that Jesus is a man that meets this standard. In #136 I said Jesus is such a man.

In Post #139 OBW said “And this is what I find continually lacking in these kinds of arguments. The mere fact that you can discuss the attributes of Jesus in these terms does not make this book about it.”

In Post #145 OBW said “This book is the early discussion about the coexistence of God and evil. It is not a prophetic book about Jesus or the church.” Tell that to the writer of Hebrews.

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

Originally Posted by awareness

I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

Originally Posted by awareness

So unless our brother ZNP can pull a rabbit out of his hat, and prove otherwise, I'm forced to conclude that bro Z's claims are totally his concoction, pretty much made out of whole new cloth.

Originally Posted by awareness

I might add that both his claims come straight from Witness Lee. Who taught that the purpose of man is to express God, and that it would be accomplished by "The Building" culminating in the New Jerusalem.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Personally, I feel that the accusation that I was teaching "Lee esque" is patently untrue.

Originally Posted by awareness

So we were having a very active discussion about the book of Job, until UnToHim hosed us down with his fire hose.

Lee has a Life Study of Job. And of course the book of Job has to do with Lees' God's Economy. Lee saw in the book of Job something that wasn't there. Take a look at chapter 12 of Lee's Life Study of Job.

Click here -> http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...27%3A%20%29%0A