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04-07-2018 10:39 AM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
I like the answers provided to our brother struggling with the stupid rules of the FTT and stupid insistence by saints that he go in order to serve the Lord. Nonsense!

Such rules that were forced on Watchman Nee and Witness Lee by those who trained them (the Brethren and a mean-spirited sister), and Witness Lee passed down to “blended brothers” continue to be promoted without a check of the scriptural basis nor of what they have produced in the last 100 years.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do in order to win some through your gospel preaching. If we are preaching to business men in white shirts and ties, wear those clothes. On a college campus or door to door preaching, such dress is a red flag that says “cult!”, just like JWs and Mormons. It says the same thing to me.
Amen JJ ... amen.
04-07-2018 10:25 AM
JJ
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

I like the answers provided to our brother struggling with the stupid rules of the FTT and stupid insistence by saints that he go in order to serve the Lord. Nonsense!

Such rules that were forced on Watchman Nee and Witness Lee by those who trained them (the Brethren and a mean-spirited sister), and Witness Lee passed down to “blended brothers” continue to be promoted without a check of the scriptural basis nor of what they have produced in the last 100 years.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do in order to win some through your gospel preaching. If we are preaching to business men in white shirts and ties, wear those clothes. On a college campus or door to door preaching, such dress is a red flag that says “cult!”, just like JWs and Mormons. It says the same thing to me.
04-06-2018 07:09 PM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Awareness,

The premise of your statement is false and an argument from silence. Here’s why.

Did Jesus demand His disciples the proper use of eating utensils such as fork, knives, spoons, or chopsticks? Or did He specify how they should drive a car, motorcycle, or a turbo charged ox cart? Did He demand that they avoid visiting certain sites on the Internet? Did He demand the disciples comb their hair or clip their toe nails or use deodorant?

We are not living in the age when Jesus walked the earth during His earthly ministry. We do not know everything He said for John says that all the books could not contain everything and yet even if we knew everything He said and did for 33 years it is guaranteed he did not cover every circumstance of every follower in every age in every place.

That is why He sent Himself as the Spirit to guide us into reality. Therefore, the question should be whether the Spirit is directing. However, those among us who lean toward the outward then can consider that those who return with Jesus at His coming all wear white garments, a uniform symbol of purity and righteousness.

I agree with the first paragraph of Bradley’s statement in #39. It’s a training and those are the terms. One can choose to go or not. It does not matter what Jesus did not tell His disciples to determine such matters.

Drake
Good answers bro Drake. So true. We can't live today like they lived 2000 years ago. Thank God. They were pretty ignorant back then. We've come a long way since then. Literacy rate today is like the illiteracy rate was back then.

As a result, in general, we're not near as superstitious as they were.

All tho, if the title of this thread indicates a legit claim, we're still not free from it ; as the title indicates that those in leadership of the LSM churches are claiming that you can't serve the Lord unless you graduate from their full time training. I guess it takes high pressure tactics for such unscriptural nonsense.

Any sucker falling for that superstition, deserves to join a cult like military training ; training to be uniform robots -- surely not what Jesus had in mind for his followers. I hope they learn better.

Speaking of sales, what does the corporation make, that motivates them to resort to such nonsense sales tactics ; like the nonsense, you're useless to the Lord without our training? Or is there another benefit to the corporation ; like for reasons the LDS/Mormon's train their young people ; to propagate their movement, say?

Anyone know? Such a highfalutin claim requires such highfalutin proof.
04-06-2018 05:26 PM
Evangelical
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

"They need to be trained to dress properly and to give people a good impression of their appearance. If we do not have a good appearance, who will listen to us or respect us?" ~ WL.

I believe the current dress standards in the training do not match the intended reason for the dress standards which is to enable the truth to be spoken with less distraction.

Most of the gospel work occurs on the campuses and is business attire the most appropriate? I would say not. A more casual dress style may be appropriate.

Also, in business people are dressing more and more casually. Mark Zuckerberg and others really set a trend. I think the training centres will need to re-evaluate their dress standards at some point in order to remain relevant.
04-06-2018 07:32 AM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Did Jesus demand his disciples to all dress the same?
Awareness,

The premise of your statement is false and an argument from silence. Here’s why.

Did Jesus demand His disciples the proper use of eating utensils such as fork, knives, spoons, or chopsticks? Or did He specify how they should drive a car, motorcycle, or a turbo charged ox cart? Did He demand that they avoid visiting certain sites on the Internet? Did He demand the disciples comb their hair or clip their toe nails or use deodorant?

We are not living in the age when Jesus walked the earth during His earthly ministry. We do not know everything He said for John says that all the books could not contain everything and yet even if we knew everything He said and did for 33 years it is guaranteed he did not cover every circumstance of every follower in every age in every place.

That is why He sent Himself as the Spirit to guide us into reality. Therefore, the question should be whether the Spirit is directing. However, those among us who lean toward the outward then can consider that those who return with Jesus at His coming all wear white garments, a uniform symbol of purity and righteousness.

I agree with the first paragraph of Bradley’s statement in #39. It’s a training and those are the terms. One can choose to go or not. It does not matter what Jesus did not tell His disciples to determine such matters.

Drake
04-06-2018 05:58 AM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
Finally, I have my own login id.
Truthseeker,

Welcome.

After reading several of your entries as unreg, those I assume to be you where I sorted from other unregs, I believe the FTT would not be right for you at this time. I have always said it is not for everyone. Of course, few would object to the benefits from a deep dive into God’s Word and Christian character training in an environment without distractions and worldly trappings. Perhaps, alternatively, a Bible seminary or Christian college would satisfy your hunger to learn the things of the Lord and your desire to serve Him.

And I would not concern yourself with not being qualified to serve Him. He raises up whom He wills for whatever purpose in His time. In my serving the Lord there were times I wished I had been better equipped, such as may be gained in the FTT, to fulfill my commission but sometimes we need to go the long way around (being sent to catch a fish, pull a coin out of its mouth, then go pay the Temple tax). Experience is a teacher, sometimes a harsh one, and for some it is the only teacher they will hear or ever learn from. Nevertheless, the Lord will use us to serve Him if we present ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice, and follow the Spirits leading within.

Enjoy Him in whatever path you choose.

Drake
04-05-2018 10:56 AM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
Finally, I have my own login id.
Welcome !!!!
04-05-2018 10:43 AM
Truthseeker
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Finally, I have my own login id.
04-04-2018 09:37 PM
kumbaya
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
After the Lord's table or Sunday service meeting, I got a fellowship with LC members. They told me that I had to go to full-time training (I may choose between Full time training for young people or middle aged ). I was told that if I couldn't graduated from the training, I couldn't serve the Lord.

Personally, I probably want to go to training. But there are some regulations in there such as haircut or dress code which I can't fulfill the requirements. Personally, I like to shave my head (but I has nothing to do with nazi skinhead or racist movement) and I don't like to wear Shirt with necktie or pants (Some kind of business man style ). These two things are obstacles for me to go to training. So, I decided to not go but local church members told me that I can't serve Him if I am not graduated from full time training.

Is it my fault for not having something that is according to these regulations ? I'm in flesh or natural man. What's wrong with me to have my head shaved and wear the outfit that I like? In Christ, should we have no natural favorite lifestyle which is not related to immorality ? Please help me what should I do?

This is what Witness Lee lectures his followers concerning outward appearance which I have found in full-time training website :
“We also have the burden to help the trainees to grow absolutely in the divine life. Finally, they have to be built up in their character. They need to be trained to dress properly and to give people a good impression of their appearance. If we do not have a good appearance, who will listen to us or respect us? We must adjust ourselves. If a co-worker teaches the truth without a necktie, the people’s confidence in him will be killed. The way we dress, cut our hair, and comb our hair will give us a proper appearance which can help gain people’s regard and respect. In the past we were too loose and self-contented. Those who work for the Lord should dress in a way that is fitting in the Lord’s work.”
Witness Lee, Elders’ Training Book 9 – The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way (1), p. 15, ch. 11

But the Lord said :
But Jehovah said to Samuel, Do not regard his appearance and the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For it is not how man sees that matters; for man looks on the outward appearance, but Jehovah looks on the heart.(1 Samuel 16:5)

I still believe in the word of God more than human teaching. What's about you brother and sister, what do you think about this matter ?
I think the Holy Spirit has led you to answer your own question with the word of God.

Side note:
I should state that I think the FTT is emotionally and spiritually unhealthy in many ways and any rules to deter you are a blessing in my eyes!
However, we all have our own path and I believe God can and is using the FTT, as unhealthy as it is, to expose the false system.

My "side note" is minor. A rule about men not being able to shave their head is absurd. I actually do hair for a living and some scalps are better off shaved! If their hair irritates their scalp or if they just have hair above their ears and back of neck- it looks better shaved! Are they allowed to shave their head if they're over 50% bald? I just can't believe this rule! ha!
04-04-2018 11:50 AM
Terry
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training?

That appears to limiting ones based on man's opinions. I know a man who was asked to leave the Church in Seattle during the 1980's. No local church, no problem in serving God. For some college age displaced by the local churches yet eager to serve the Lord, there's YWAM. This brother was led to serve in Australia, Mexico, and in repeated trips to Chile.
04-03-2018 07:39 PM
Unregistered
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

You can serve god and not go to thier "god military boot camp" . They have all these rules to control you . They are a border line cult . Use to go there but left . I was a church kid from Houston . So I want to declare thank the lord for reveling to me all there lies and mind control tricks it not the local church but the church of witness lee. Run my friend run far away from them. Hey church in Houston people want to say I hope your so called kingdom of witness leave falls , you are a much of fakers .
04-03-2018 06:49 PM
Eyesopened
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
If a co-worker teaches the truth without a necktie, the people’s confidence in him will be killed. The way we dress, cut our hair, and comb our hair will give us a proper appearance which can help gain people’s regard and respect. In the past we were too loose and self-contented. Those who work for the Lord should dress in a way that is
Quote:
I still believe in the word of God more than human teaching. What's about you brother and sister, what do you think about this matter ?
Hi brother,

My first thought was one soul being led to faith in Jesus, one person saved by hearing of your faith in Christ, through His word...I think God would rejoice and be well pleased and consider this service. I doubt His word is limited by your dress...He did say, His word would go out, and not return to Him void! In fact, to tell a young believer they cannot serve Him without conforming to a particular dress code seems to declare a limit on the power of His grace and mercy to those whom He foreknew. I would not believe this word you received from the LC. But I am freshly prejudiced....I will never believe or receive anything of this particular ministry again. Bless you, brother. His word will light your path!
04-03-2018 06:14 PM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel View Post
Sure sounds like God is into providing patterns for us to follow.
But what pattern? Should we all don tunics, sandals, and a staffs?

Are you using this pattern thing as a reason to wear uniforms at the FTT?

I don't know. Did Jesus demand his disciples to all dress the same?
04-03-2018 05:30 PM
Bradley
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Okay you can 'serve' without going to the training - but you won't be supported financially by the church. Thats full-time employment basically, a big investment on their part, so they should be able to make that requirement if they should so choose, being an employer. If you have a part time job or are supported in some way by someone else such as your family or the government, then you're free to join the campus team and take appointments with new ones. Sometimes you'll get anonymous unofficial donations anyway - at least thats how it was with me in NZ.

Also the dress code is not unreasonable. You can't wear a tie? There are lots of companies who wouldn't employ you if you refused to wear a tie. Haircut limits? I once shaved off a head full of dreadlocks for a job interview, because thats what it takes. I didn't even get the job.

Having said that, I totally think they're a dodgy cult, much like being a Mormon or JW. They also have a strict dress code, but the dress code is not what makes them a cult.

I shaved my head the other day to a #1 and I love it, and I haven't worn a tie in years - but when I do put on a white shirt and tie, I feel classy, I personally have no problem with it.
04-03-2018 03:36 PM
Evangelical
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

In liturgical services the congregation must mimic the priests words and actions and conforms to his mannerisms and temper and sombreness.

In pentecostal services they also mimic the pastors style of worship eg hands raised..jumping..tongues and saying the words 'awesome' and 'amazing' and 'financial' more often than not. If you dont conform to that trend you are treated accordingly.
04-03-2018 10:51 AM
Ohio
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel View Post
Sure sounds like God is into providing patterns for us to follow.
Yes He did. Many of which are in the scriptures, and many others are in the body of Christ today.

There's a world of difference, however, between being a healthy pattern in faith, love, and service to the believers, and some of the horrible lessons and fiery trials inflicted on the church by WL, for example:
  • In Acts 20, Paul testified with tears how he was with the elders in Ephesus all the time with all humility and tears. Compare this with Lee's regular practice of public humiliations, dress-downs, and shamings in order to maintain his power base.
  • In I Cor 6, Paul spoke how lawsuits were a shame and a defeat for them, exhorting them rather to be wronged and defrauded. Compare this to Lee's practice of filing lawsuits against every critic on earth. The Blendeds became even worse, filing lawsuits against all the Midwest LC's to seize church assets.
  • Paul testified (II Cor 2.17, 4.2) that he was different from all the rest, never using the word of God for personal profit, peddling the scripture for filthy lucre. Compare this to Lee's habit of using the church for his many failed businesses, then demanding that all LC's use only his materials.
Witness Lee Duplication Centers? Count me out!
04-03-2018 07:58 AM
Ohio
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel View Post
Many born again believers in Christ have a very poor understanding of the above matter… Thinking that they are called to “…be different…” from those who are holding to the things/ways of the world... Which is what scripture tells us... But a problem of poor understanding regarding the how to “…be different…”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel View Post
The "...Lee-bots..." are coming . . . The "...Lee-bots..." are coming... Lord help us.
I'm glad you made your points right away, so I did not have to read thru your whole post. Thank the Lord.

Steel, referring to the sarcasm "...Lee-bots...", the concerns which former members have is legitimate.

Both Lee and the Blendeds have repeatedly spoken of the FTTs as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers," for producing "Witness Lee Tape Recorders."

That is, to the entire body of Christ, frankly quite concerning!

You cited Rom. 12.1-2 and then commented, "Many born again believers in Christ have a very poor understanding of the above matter…"

I object. I dissent. I disagree. I protest.

I have never met anyone outside the LC who would even think about being conformed to their minister or becoming a duplication of their pastor. This nonsense is confined to the degraded Recovery.
04-03-2018 07:41 AM
Steel
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

The "...Lee-bots..." are coming . . . The "...Lee-bots..." are coming...Lord help us.

Really... I'm not kidding... Lord help us... As in... Help us to get out of our old fallen-man self and into our regenerated spirit... Meaning, get out of our old fallen-man self and into You, Lord.

Anyone who thinks to use the mocking phrase "...Lee-bot..." when referring to another born again believer in Christ... A person who God took on the flesh of man for... A person who God lived a suffering human life for... A person who God in this humanity, died a horrible death for... A person who God raised up from death this humanity for......
04-03-2018 12:51 AM
Kevin
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

It's TRUE! I always hear from the brothers that you can't fully serve the Lord or be a useful vessel unless you're graduated from FTTMA.
04-02-2018 08:18 PM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
All kidding aside, most people would view that change as positive no matter what the reason.
Unless it's putting on airs, for show of conformity. And certainly not if it means you are becoming a Lee-bot. Take it from me ... a former Lee-bot ... in wing tips.

Don't trust anything that REQUIRES new clothes. Know what you are getting into before you put on a uniform.
04-02-2018 07:36 PM
Unregistered
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

To Mr unregistered user who started this thread:
You don't need to change yourself to fit in. Nor should you. Now this doesn't mean that if we truly are growing spiritually that as we come under the governance of Jesus Christ more and more that we will not be changed. That is change that we want. Conformity is not desired and should be avoided. Please don't listen to anything that Drake says. His posts are perfect examples of asceticism or outside-in-change. He speaks just like a scribe or Pharisee. These are people implementing asceticism or outside-in-change. When one isn't actually saved but desires to try and follow teachings of God this is what they default to. The way of life, which is being in Jesus Christ, isn't doing whatever we want. It also certainly isn't asceticism! The narrow road has a ditch on both sides. Jesus warns us to beware of the yeast of the Pharisees. Stay away from it brother!

To Drake:
We are not to judge. It means we aren't to pass sentences on people. We can't see a persons heart. We are instructed to use discernment of Jesus. We are commanded to check those who call themselves prophets. To contend for the faith. What I am about to tell you I do so out of great concern for you. I highly doubt that you are saved. If I were a betting man (which I am not) I would be willing to bet almost everything that I own that you are an unsaved Pharisee. You speak just like one. You speak as one who has another mediator. One who speaks of things that they don't personal have understanding of. Do you get personal revelation from God's Word? What is it like? Does it ever dare to disagree with WL? Do you understand the passage of Mathew 7:13-23? How about this part in particular? Mathew 7:21-23 "21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Do you ever experience Christ when away from LC meetings, like a few days after your last meeting? Can you name one Biblical interruption error of WL? You need to seek God for real on your own.
04-02-2018 07:23 PM
Steel
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Evangelical,
He even started wearing collared shirts AND tuck them in his pants! All kidding aside, most people would view that change as positive no matter what the reason.
Drake
Not if they were free of the bondage of cultural preferences they wouldn't.

Truth is... The fact that this is even being discussed by born again believers in Christ Jesus exposes the poor condition of body.

Really... We could be discussing the Lord's wonderfulness... But instead choose to discuss dress codes.

Lord help us.

And BTW, Drake... The bunks in the dorm at the school Paul taught at... Does scripture tell us that Paul specifically arranged them?
04-02-2018 06:23 PM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
So you are complaining because your husband wants to dress nice?
Wearing a shirt and tie is a crazy standard?
Evangelical,

He even started wearing collared shirts AND tuck them in his pants!



All kidding aside, most people would view that change as positive no matter what the reason.

Drake
04-02-2018 06:10 PM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
That's an interesting one bro Drake. Yes there was no dress code. So why did I go from a nudest hippie to a brother wearing a white shirt, narrow tie, black slacks, and Wing Tips?
Why? Cuz I wanted to be all in, and wanted to be a burning brother for it. And that's what serious burning brothers did ... or do.
That's the way the co-workers dressed.
Awareness,

I would definitely prefer to meet you wearing those “brothers” clothes than the au naturale garb of your former way of life..... no matter what the reason was that you upgraded.

Drake
04-02-2018 05:24 PM
Unregistered
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Run run as fast as you can away from them . It military boot camp with mind control . I used to go there but I am free free free . I do have a full timer email me , this quote got me . Oh I left before I was not a perfect sister . I am the wild sister I called them out in why the woman could not lead during conferences but only small groups it called control. That got me kick out. Plus I am pansexual they did not like that .
Example
We all are in the process of being “sonized.” We have the Spirit of the Son of God, the life of the Son of God, and the position of the Son of God, but we still need to be conformed to the image of the Son of God. Hence, we need more “sonizing.” The Lord intends to conform us to His image, to the very image of the Son of God. The only place this can happen is in the church life. Outside the church, we cannot be conformed to the image of the Son of God. Thus, I encourage you to be happy in the messed-up church life. Do not kick against the pricks, but gladly accept the “sonizing” process" (Life-Study of Ephesians, message 4).

My response
Out side the church life we can enjoy god and his grace . Yes the church life is messed up in many ways , if you need to kick against the pricks to bring about change then do so . Why would we be happy in a messed up church .

I have got more I went back once and they were talking about sin did not know it was so damn complex like if you are not praying in spirt if a sin . My friend who lift wrote this - apparently everything you do, if it doesn’t bring you closer to God, it’s sin. Sounds like in not in your spirit and serving god you are sinning all the time even washing your hands . Sorry train of thought is all over the place .

So yeah brake away from the mind control freaks . From a former member of the church in Houston . Grew up a church kid I am now 27
04-02-2018 02:39 PM
Evangelical
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus View Post
I completely agree with awareness, and that is to RUN as fast as you can from this cult, and IT IS A CULT! I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but the truth is the truth, so matter how offensive it may seem. My husband has recently started altering the way he dresses (collared shirt tucked in his pants) and recently asked if we could go buy him some ties. I asked him why since he would never ever even consider wearing a tie for any occasion unless he was attending some sort of court hearing. He didn't come out and tell me why, but I knew. He's trying to conform to their crazy standards, even though that is not who he is, which is sad.
So you are complaining because your husband wants to dress nice?

Wearing a shirt and tie is a crazy standard?
04-02-2018 01:29 PM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
There is no standard dress code if he is not in the full time training.

Ask him why he decided to start wearing ties. If he feels the Lord motivating him then all is well. If he is doing it because most are doing it then he maybe he is trying to fit in. It’s not necessary in that case.

Drake
That's an interesting one bro Drake. Yes there was no dress code. So why did I go from a nudest hippie to a brother wearing a white shirt, narrow tie, black slacks, and Wing Tips?

Why? Cuz I wanted to be all in, and wanted to be a burning brother for it. And that's what serious burning brothers did ... or do.

That's the way the co-workers dressed.
04-02-2018 11:30 AM
Terry
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
The citations were more of a shaming technique. Before our first public get together, we received LSM ties to wear. One brother must have forgotten, or missed it somehow. Instead of pointing it out privately to him, AY shamed him publicly for what seemed to be 10 minutes. I felt bad for the dear brother. Just another military style dressdown when none was needed. It was uncalled for. He was not a "rebellious" brother. AY did it because "he could."

Paul said, "love is patient, love is kind." Real love respects other brothers. There are times when a harsh word may be needed, but this was not one of them. I have always said that when the ministry treats brothers like this, they tend to create enemies and bullies out of beloved brothers. I saw way too much of this in the Recovery, and that's why so many beloved brothers have left.

Personally, I was "all in" during those days in Taipei.
I know for a fact there are several other forum members who were "all in" during those days in Taipei.
As for the term "rebellious brother", my question has always remained the same since 1978. "Rebelling against whom?" I know what you mean though.
Brothers who don't have the peace within to conform to a particular line of thinking or dress code or brothers who react to a "situation" usually ends that that description of "rebellious brother".
04-02-2018 10:47 AM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus View Post
My husband has recently started altering the way he dresses (collared shirt tucked in his pants) and recently asked if we could go buy him some ties. I asked him why since he would never ever even consider wearing a tie for any occasion unless he was attending some sort of court hearing. He didn't come out and tell me why, but I knew. He's trying to conform to their crazy standards, even though that is not who he is, which is sad.
There is no standard dress code if he is not in the full time training.

Ask him why he decided to start wearing ties. If he feels the Lord motivating him then all is well. If he is doing it because most are doing it then he maybe he is trying to fit in. It’s not necessary in that case.

Drake
04-02-2018 10:36 AM
Boxjobox
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
After the Lord's table or Sunday service meeting, I got a fellowship with LC members. They told me that I had to go to full-time training (I may choose between Full time training for young people or middle aged ). I was told that if I couldn't graduated from the training, I couldn't serve the Lord...
Unregistered, I'm curious, having been apart from LSM influence now for 30 years, what would be your expectations of being trained? Who are the trainers- what are their qualifications for such a position? Have you know someone who has gone through training? What was the results, what changed in those who have gone through it? What results do the trainers expect from those going through it- is that spelled out? Has that result been realized in any graduates?
And probably most important, what does it mean to you to serve God?
04-02-2018 10:14 AM
boughtbyJesus
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

I completely agree with awareness, and that is to RUN as fast as you can from this cult, and IT IS A CULT! I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but the truth is the truth, so matter how offensive it may seem. My husband has recently started altering the way he dresses (collared shirt tucked in his pants) and recently asked if we could go buy him some ties. I asked him why since he would never ever even consider wearing a tie for any occasion unless he was attending some sort of court hearing. He didn't come out and tell me why, but I knew. He's trying to conform to their crazy standards, even though that is not who he is, which is sad.
04-01-2018 07:06 PM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Good points bro Drake. We really can't live the Bible can we? But we can live it in our imagination.

Eventually, after leaving the LC, looking back, I couldn't imagine that the life I lived in the LC was what Jesus had in mind for his followers.

Neither can I imagine the Roman Catholic organization is what Jesus had in mind for his followers. Nor the Baptist church, nor any of the over 33,000 Christian sects.

I can't imagine that he had in mind that there'd be 33,000 sects of followers.

But what do I know?

Still, "citations" and "demerits" is an addition that strikes as mind control ... like that of military boot camp. I might add, and point out, that the military is the biggest and most powerful cult on the earth. And it's principles, practices, and laws -- following orders without question - mind control -- resulted in atrocities like the holocaust, and many, many, others.

I just don't think that that sort of practice, like a military, is what Jesus had in mind.

And yes, I know the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers," and have sung it many times ... while holding my nose inwardly, so to speak. It never jibbed with me, with the Jesus I imagined in the gospels.

Maybe the local church is following the Jesus in the book of Revelation. There he certainly seems to be the military type. I just don't know if that's the real Jesus. If so, count me out. I'm going with the neutral angels.
04-01-2018 01:24 PM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Who's the king in your analogy :Mat 22:11* And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And are the FTT's a wedding?Luk 12:27* Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.*
So now the hall of Tyrannus is a Full Time Training? I love ya brother. But you're seeing things in the scripture that ain't there.
Awareness,

Do you apply the Bible strictly in all things?

You asked for evidence of a training and Pauls 2 years in the school of Tyrannus with his disciples fits the description. I didn’t say it was full time but it was significant enough to be recorded in the Bible by the Holy Spirit. Why not? You seem to be implying that any Bible seminary is not according to the Scripture.

Didn’t Jesus pull some of his disciples aside for special instruction?

It is impossible for the Bible to cover every situation explicitly. Did Jesus give explicit instructions on the use of the internet?

Drake
04-01-2018 01:07 PM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Well. Apparently Jesus recognized the importance of appropriate clothing (a wedding garment) for a specific occasion (a wedding). Matt 22:12
Who's the king in your analogy :

Mat 22:11* And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And are the FTT's a wedding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake
I don’t think the Lord intends that we all dress the same but neither does He dismiss that in some situations there is a dress code as above. Serving ones in the OT had very strict dress codes so the principle is established.
Luk 12:27* Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake
Training’s? Sure, why not? Paul taught his disciples in the training school of Tyrannus for two years as being more suitable than the synagogue. Acts 19:9 A place free from the distractions of everyday life to study the Word... sounds good.
So now the hall of Tyrannus is a Full Time Training? I love ya brother. But you're seeing things in the scripture that ain't there.
04-01-2018 01:00 PM
Ohio
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-1

Ohio,

Thanks for sharing. I’m sure that it wasn’t funny at the time but to hear you tell it now I can see it unfold ....

Under the circumstances I would have probably racked up a lot of demerits very quickly. You did not actually say what happens when you accumulate a certain number of citations. Did you know anyone where the consequences of the citations were acted upon?

Drake
Drake, I had no problem with rules, just as long as we know them ahead of time. With so many to take care of, there has to be some order, we all would agree with that.

I'm not sure what the consequences could have been. Some of the brothers wished they were "sent home early." An old friend of mine from college won the award at the end of the training for having no citations. Did we even clap for him? Not sure what his reward was.

The citations were more of a shaming technique. Before our first public get together, we received LSM ties to wear. One brother must have forgotten, or missed it somehow. Instead of pointing it out privately to him, AY shamed him publicly for what seemed to be 10 minutes. I felt bad for the dear brother. Just another military style dressdown when none was needed. It was uncalled for. He was not a "rebellious" brother. AY did it because "he could."

Paul said, "love is patient, love is kind." Real love respects other brothers. There are times when a harsh word may be needed, but this was not one of them. I have always said that when the ministry treats brothers like this, they tend to create enemies and bullies out of beloved brothers. I saw way too much of this in the Recovery, and that's why so many beloved brothers have left.

Personally, I was "all in" during those days in Taipei. A couple times I even volunteered to pull "all-nighters" to help out with cleaning and painting. I was happy to do that. I thought the ministry was something special to the Lord.
04-01-2018 12:24 PM
Steel
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Training’s? Sure, why not? Paul taught his disciples in the training school of Tyrannus for two years as being more suitable than the synagogue. Acts 19:9 A place free from the distractions of everyday life to study the Word... sounds good.

Drake
Where in scripture does it tell us that Paul was who arranged how all the bunk beds in the dorm at "...school of Tyrannus"?
04-01-2018 12:06 PM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

-1

Ohio,

Thanks for sharing. I’m sure that it wasn’t funny at the time but to hear you tell it now I can see it unfold ....

Under the circumstances I would have probably racked up a lot of demerits very quickly. You did not actually say what happens when you accumulate a certain number of citations. Did you know anyone where the consequences of the citations were acted upon?

Drake
04-01-2018 11:15 AM
Ohio
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Personally, I probably want to go to training. But there are some regulations in there such as haircut or dress code which I can't fulfill the requirements.
At least you know what their requirements are so that you can make an informed decision.

I went to a full-time training for elders and responsible ones in Taipei, and many were discouraged by all the petty regulations. While we were gone during the day, the training office had young kids go thru our underwear drawers and write up citations. I got one for not lining all my ducks in a row (I mean socks). Since there was no advance notice of underwear drawer inspection, with posted guidelines for these citations, many of us felt violated when we all received them.

Later on I learned that it was just LSM's way of humiliating elders in order to bring them under subjection. It was all part of LSM's "game" to achieve dominance over the LC's. We also had to use metal clothes hangers to smooth the sheets on the bed foams. I had no problem with that rule, but it was especially irritating for another elder in the room. He responded by never trying to smooth his sheets again. These petty citations only served to lower the morale among us.

I also got a citation for folding up my white sleeves at dinner -- kind of humiliating to have some 18 y.o. American trainee kid interrupt your dinner fellowship to issue you an official citation. I decided to appeal that one with the presiding LSM "judge," and got it over-turned. (Hence no points on my insurance.) Personally I felt bad for these "inspectors." LSM did them a great disservice by drafting them for this petty "service." What a way to puff him up with pride!

What did you do today? I enjoyed the Lord while inspecting the elders' underwear drawers.
04-01-2018 11:06 AM
Boxjobox
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
After the Lord's table or Sunday service meeting, I got a fellowship with LC members. They told me that I had to go to full-time training (I may choose between Full time training for young people or middle aged ). I was told that if I couldn't graduated from the training, I couldn't serve the Lord.

Personally, I probably want to go to training. But there are some regulations in there such as haircut or dress code which I can't fulfill the requirements. Personally, I like to shave my head (but I has nothing to do with nazi skinhead or racist movement) and I don't like to wear Shirt with necktie or pants (Some kind of business man style ). These two things are obstacles for me to go to training. So, I decided to not go but local church members told me that I can't serve Him if I am not graduated from full time training.

Is it my fault for not having something that is according to these regulations ? I'm in flesh or natural man. What's wrong with me to have my head shaved and wear the outfit that I like? In Christ, should we have no natural favorite lifestyle which is not related to immorality ? Please help me what should I do?

This is what Witness Lee lectures his followers concerning outward appearance which I have found in full-time training website :
“We also have the burden to help the trainees to grow absolutely in the divine life. Finally, they have to be built up in their character. They need to be trained to dress properly and to give people a good impression of their appearance. If we do not have a good appearance, who will listen to us or respect us? We must adjust ourselves. If a co-worker teaches the truth without a necktie, the people’s confidence in him will be killed. The way we dress, cut our hair, and comb our hair will give us a proper appearance which can help gain people’s regard and respect. In the past we were too loose and self-contented. Those who work for the Lord should dress in a way that is fitting in the Lord’s work.”
Witness Lee, Elders’ Training Book 9 – The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way (1), p. 15, ch. 11

But the Lord said :
But Jehovah said to Samuel, Do not regard his appearance and the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For it is not how man sees that matters; for man looks on the outward appearance, but Jehovah looks on the heart.(1 Samuel 16:5)

I still believe in the word of God more than human teaching. What's about you brother and sister, what do you think about this matter ?
I think the Tupperware company always needs salespeople to hawk their wares. Working for the Lord should be translated as being a representative of the LSM business. If you are going to represent that business, got to play by their rules. You will have to learn their jargon, be able to explain and display their material, and bring in others to grow the business.
04-01-2018 10:25 AM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
But to dress the same and attend training's is what Jesus had in mind for his followers?
Well. Apparently Jesus recognized the importance of appropriate clothing (a wedding garment) for a specific occasion (a wedding). Matt 22:12

I don’t think the Lord intends that we all dress the same but neither does He dismiss that in some situations there is a dress code as above. Serving ones in the OT had very strict dress codes so the principle is established. I think it is very appropriate for practical reasons to have a dress code in academia, military, medical, service corps, etc. Rather than worry about what to wear, or what others are wearing, or whether you will be perceived according to an economic class because of what you or others are wearing you get to focus on your purpose for being there. Else, you should not be there.

Training’s? Sure, why not? Paul taught his disciples in the training school of Tyrannus for two years as being more suitable than the synagogue. Acts 19:9 A place free from the distractions of everyday life to study the Word... sounds good.

Drake
04-01-2018 09:54 AM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
No, I don’t think Jesus had in mind that His followers to walk around in their pajamas.

Drake
But to dress the same and attend training's is what Jesus had in mind for his followers?
04-01-2018 09:53 AM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I just wonder if that's what Jesus had in mind for his followers. You tell me.
No, I don’t think Jesus had in mind that His followers walk around in their pajamas.

Drake
04-01-2018 09:47 AM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Brother Unreg,

I hope you see the flawed logic you’re being fed. It is intended to keep you in line with the Expectations of the LSM organization and the works of Witness Lee.

Clearly the dress code expectations for the FTTA are NOT anything similar to colleges or corporations. Yet Drake’s comment is factual- 100% accurate!

Throw away the works of Witness Lee, grab a Lee free bible, get on your knees and pray to God for his guidance. You at are a crossroads - choose Christ my brother!
That is a false choice because it is not either or.

Here is another benefit to a standard dress code in various places.

It is a socioeconomic leveler.

Here is a place you can go to study, to focus on your academics, to concentrate on your training whatever that is, without having to deal with who has better clothes, latest fashion, etc. and that regardless of your socio economic status students are met on an equal playing field. Second the consumerist culture extends too far into our lives, occupying time, money, and the human need to display our possessions in front of others. A standard dress code removes that trapping.

Drake
04-01-2018 09:27 AM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
However, how seriously would you take someone working for Christ if they did it wearing thier pajamas?

And uniforms in military service are not mind control.
I just wonder if that's what Jesus had in mind for his followers. You tell me.
04-01-2018 09:21 AM
Unregistered
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Brother Unreg,

I hope you see the flawed logic you’re being fed. It is intended to keep you in line with the Expectations of the LSM organization and the works of Witness Lee.

Clearly the dress code expectations for the FTTA are NOT anything similar to colleges or corporations. Yet Drake’s comment is factual- 100% accurate!

Throw away the works of Witness Lee, grab a Lee free bible, get on your knees and pray to God for his guidance. You at are a crossroads - choose Christ my brother!

The Holy and Infallible Word of God speaks very clear that:

Matthew 15:7-9.

15:7 Hypocrites! Well has Isaiah prophesied concerning you, saying,
15:8 “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart stays far away from Me;
15:9 But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commandments of men.”


These regulations are the commandement of man not of God.
04-01-2018 09:18 AM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Surely you do know how scary all the above is. The North Korean cheerleaders all dress the same too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIH8PSg4yi8

And by the way. I live in a college town. The girls even wear their pajamas to class. And let's not forget those "vulgar" painted on yoga pants.

The dress code smacks of group-think & the training as mind control ; the same as military boot camp.

However, how seriously would you take someone working for Christ if they did it wearing their pajamas?

And uniforms in military service are not mind control.
04-01-2018 09:04 AM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake
Brother, first you must distinguish the training from your church life to understand this.

As a member of the church in your locality you can dress however you like (of course not vulgar T-shirt’s or immodest clothing) but within reason and you can shave your head or grow a ponytail. Doesn’t matter.

However, if you want to attend the full time training then you have to comply to the regulations set forth by the training administration. Colleges, educational institutions, government, military, choirs, corporations etc. all have attire standards and regulations. Some more lenient and some stricter but in any case there are dress codes for a reason.

The benefits are too numerous to list in favor of a standard of uniformity for that kind of setting but the main purpose is so that you and others are not distracted, have character training, development of good practices, management, etc. and have a good experience and a successful completion to the training.
Surely you do know how scary all the above is. The North Korean cheerleaders all dress the same too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIH8PSg4yi8

And by the way. I live in a college town. The girls even wear their pajamas to class. And let's not forget those "vulgar" painted on yoga pants.

The dress code smacks of group-think & the training as mind control ; the same as military boot camp.
04-01-2018 09:00 AM
Unregistered
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Sorry again. I come here to correct my mistake at biblical verse at the end of this post. It's 1 Samuel 16:7 not 5. Sorry for my error in biblical reference.
04-01-2018 08:16 AM
leastofthese
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
However, if you want to attend the full time training then you have to comply to the regulations set forth by the training administration. Colleges, educational institutions, government, military, choirs, corporations etc. all have attire standards and regulations. Some more lenient and some stricter but in any case there are dress codes for a reason.
Brother Unreg,

I hope you see the flawed logic you’re being fed. It is intended to keep you in line with the Expectations of the LSM organization and the works of Witness Lee.

Clearly the dress code expectations for the FTTA are NOT anything similar to colleges or corporations. Yet Drake’s comment is factual- 100% accurate!

Throw away the works of Witness Lee, grab a Lee free bible, get on your knees and pray to God for his guidance. You at are a crossroads - choose Christ my brother!
04-01-2018 07:28 AM
Drake
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

Unreg>”Is it my fault for not having something that is according to these regulations ? I'm in flesh or natural man. What's wrong with me to have my head shaved and wear the outfit that I like? In Christ, should we have no natural favorite lifestyle which is not related to immorality ? Please help me what should I do? “


Brother, first you must distinguish the training from your church life to understand this.

As a member of the church in your locality you can dress however you like (of course not vulgar T-shirt’s or immodest clothing) but within reason and you can shave your head or grow a ponytail. Doesn’t matter.

However, if you want to attend the full time training then you have to comply to the regulations set forth by the training administration. Colleges, educational institutions, government, military, choirs, corporations etc. all have attire standards and regulations. Some more lenient and some stricter but in any case there are dress codes for a reason.

The benefits are too numerous to list in favor of a standard of uniformity for that kind of setting but the main purpose is so that you and others are not distracted, have character training, development of good practices, management, etc. and have a good experience and a successful completion to the training.

As to serving the Lord it is up to Him how to use you. He decides and if your heart is for His interests He will use you one way or another.

It sounds like you want to go so don’t let a minor thing like clothing or hair style prevent you. That is part of the training. There will be many challenges in life far surpassing those things.

Since you have a choice of age groups you should just decide on the peer group you would feel more comfortable in. If you have experience in life such a job, living on your own, caring for others, then you might prefer others with similar experiences vs being with those straight out of college.

The main thing is if you are willing to be trained. If not, then the training may not be right for you or at least not right at this time. Just go to the Lord and ask Him and then do as He leads. My advice or anyone else’s here or elsewhere matters little because ultimately it is a matter between you and the Lord.

Drake
04-01-2018 06:38 AM
awareness
Re: You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

They would then reject both John the Baptist and Jesus for not wearing a necktie.

So I guess Jesus couldn't serve the Lord.

I say run brother run. Run from that cult.
04-01-2018 05:37 AM
Unregistered
You can't serve God if you aren't graduated from full-time training.

After the Lord's table or Sunday service meeting, I got a fellowship with LC members. They told me that I had to go to full-time training (I may choose between Full time training for young people or middle aged ). I was told that if I couldn't graduated from the training, I couldn't serve the Lord.

Personally, I probably want to go to training. But there are some regulations in there such as haircut or dress code which I can't fulfill the requirements. Personally, I like to shave my head (but I has nothing to do with nazi skinhead or racist movement) and I don't like to wear Shirt with necktie or pants (Some kind of business man style ). These two things are obstacles for me to go to training. So, I decided to not go but local church members told me that I can't serve Him if I am not graduated from full time training.

Is it my fault for not having something that is according to these regulations ? I'm in flesh or natural man. What's wrong with me to have my head shaved and wear the outfit that I like? In Christ, should we have no natural favorite lifestyle which is not related to immorality ? Please help me what should I do?

This is what Witness Lee lectures his followers concerning outward appearance which I have found in full-time training website :
“We also have the burden to help the trainees to grow absolutely in the divine life. Finally, they have to be built up in their character. They need to be trained to dress properly and to give people a good impression of their appearance. If we do not have a good appearance, who will listen to us or respect us? We must adjust ourselves. If a co-worker teaches the truth without a necktie, the people’s confidence in him will be killed. The way we dress, cut our hair, and comb our hair will give us a proper appearance which can help gain people’s regard and respect. In the past we were too loose and self-contented. Those who work for the Lord should dress in a way that is fitting in the Lord’s work.”
Witness Lee, Elders’ Training Book 9 – The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way (1), p. 15, ch. 11

But the Lord said :
But Jehovah said to Samuel, Do not regard his appearance and the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For it is not how man sees that matters; for man looks on the outward appearance, but Jehovah looks on the heart.(1 Samuel 16:5)

I still believe in the word of God more than human teaching. What's about you brother and sister, what do you think about this matter ?

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