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| Introductions and Testimonies Please tell everybody something about yourself. Tell us a little. Tell us a lot. Its up to you! |
Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 08-01-2023 03:11 AM | ||||
| aron |
Re: according to the cleanness of my hands Psalm 18:30 says, "The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness/according to the cleanness of my hands He has rewarded me." The "me" according to the pattern of NT reception should be Jesus Christ. Psalm 16:10 says, "You (the Father) will not leave my (Christ) soul in the grave/neither will Thou (Father) suffer Thine holy One (Christ Jesus) to see corruption." Psalm 40:8 says, "I (Christ) come to do Thy will, O God (the Father)/behold in the scroll of the book it is written concerning me". The 'me' here is clearly Jesus Christ. Jesus verified this by saying that all the things written concerning him must be fulfilled. See Luke 21:22, 24:44; Mark 14:43-50 etc. There are probably 40 or 50 references in the NT about how Jesus was the focus of prophecy and its embodiment, fulfillment, in the Gospel record. He was "the Word made flesh". The focus was entirely on the person of Jesus Christ: his experiences, his suffering, his triumphant rise, his promise to return. Now, what has happened in the meantime, as the centuries passed and the endless ages rolled? Currently, the focus is put on the believer, not on the belief, and on the Christian, not on the Christ. In the Recovery we were told that there was one word in the dictionary: "Christ"... actually, that's completely false: the one word is in the Recovery dictionary is "me". Instead of "no longer I but Christ" it is "no longer Christ but I". This unrelenting and all-consuming focus of the subjective experience of the believer has made Christ a cipher, to be made into whatever the subjective self needs at any point. For verification, look at the hymns - who's the subject, the object and focus of attention? The believer and his/her experience. "What can was away my (the believer) sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus". Or, "And can it be that I (the believer) should gain an interest in my Saviour's blood? Died he (Christ) for me (Christian) - who caused his pain...etc." Or, "So subjective is my Christ in me (the redeemed sinner)/real in me (sinner) and rich and sweet/all my (redeemed sinner) needs he (Christ) meets" It's all about the sinner's experience, satisfaction, and joy. But that subjectivity is quicksand! The unrelenting focus is on the sinner: redeemed, reborn, transformed and transfigured. The doorway to deception is cast wide open. Instead of focusing on the One with clean hands - Jesus. The Lord's Recovery is not unique in this path of error, but they do it to a greater degree, with more horrific results, than most Protestant spinoffs. It's probably not coincidental that all these frauds that I've been writing of originated from the same tradition (I know the Bible Answer Man is Greek Orthodox now, but I doubt that he'd have gotten as much traction there, to start). The Protestant Revelator gets some great immutable Truth, but that's the backdoor for the Revelator to become the Seer of the Divine Mystery for the Present Age, yada yada. A circle of deception and self-deception, drawing in trusting and hopeful rubes, those well-meaning seekers who will take the claims on face value because it makes them feel good. As long as you have some "enjoyment" engendered by repetitive shouting, it must be true... right? |
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| 07-28-2023 03:01 AM | ||||
| aron |
Re: Another apparent fraud Quote:
Everyone wants to think they are something over and against their fellows. It's a natural human tendency. "And they all quarreled, over which one of them was the greatest." (Luke 22:24-27). Likewise, the commands to humble ourselves and NOT elevate ourselves are myriad in the NT. Yet the would-be "deputy God" thinks that someone (themselves) must be immune from all this as God's special anointed leader of the flock. Unfortunately there is no basis for this in the NT. Paul said that he was the apostle to the uncircumcised, just as Peter was to the circumcised. There is always plurality and mutuality seen in the flock. Always. The Deputy God is Jesus Christ, risen from the dead. God's Oracle is Jesus Christ, whose Spirit now dwells in each of us. All of us, like Peter, James, Paul, Mark, and John, have the opportunity to humble ourselves and to try to obey, to follow the Divine Light. There is no special believer with a special gift apart from the mass, and a commensurate special set of rules. Everyone fails. Jesus alone dwells in spotless light. The rest of us try to approximate the Light. Jesus is the Spiritual Man, not Paul or Watchman Nee or Martin Luther. We should look away to none but Jesus. To me, these are the ABCs of Christianity, of the common faith handed down, the gospel message given to the world. The so-called Guru or Deputy God or Minister of the Age subverts this by seeking a place for themselves. What's absolutely amazing is seeing someone like Hank Hanegraff promoting this. Walter Martin's mission at CRI was to call out non-Christian concepts making inroads in our society. Hank took over, and completely flipped the script, and instead will sell the seal of approval to anyone with enough cash. |
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| 07-25-2023 06:24 AM | ||||
| Unregistered |
Re: Another apparent fraud Interesting comparison, and they even have the same agenda. I got goosebumps the moment I heard that their target demographic is 18-30 yr olds. Brought up a lot of bad memories and even myself getting targeted when I was in my early twenties. This is not Christianity or anything to do with it, it’s the pagan religions like Hinduism posing as a Christian. It’s very common in India to have gurus that people follow to their grave, and this men just rebranded himself, possibly because he couldn’t attract big enough following as a enlightened Hindu guru! Using the name of Jesus tends to bring in a bit more of a crowd, and many have done so. |
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| 07-25-2023 03:34 AM | ||||
| aron |
Another apparent fraud Going back to my point about the NT. Suppose in the book of Acts, you saw people selling properties and laying the proceeds at Peter's feet. Then you see where Peter sets up a ski resort on Mount Hermon, run by his children and cousins? What would the gospel look like? Both Nee and Lee are seen as doing this, setting up family members and close associates with church money. (Lee for sure, Nee set up a factory with his brother and was removed by elders for "business dealings", also laundered assets through 63 church members when Mao took over.) Another apparent fraud is KP Yohannan, who has a fundraising arm that pulls in the hundreds of millions that is supposed to go to the impoverished and unchurched Asian areas. But his group is laundering money by getting for-profit entities, etc etc... He started his own church that holds him as "Metropolitan" and he gets full say in what goes. The way to get ahead, and get the perks and the bennies, is to promote him. Whatever KP says is God's current speaking in the church. Sound familiar? https://www.billionbibles.com/gospel-for-asia.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._P._Yohannan And guess who KP Yohannan is seen hanging out with on YouTube and discussing finer points of mysticism and spirituality - our old friend Hank Hanegraff! A few hundred thousand*, and Hank will tell the world what a good Christian you are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTV6Q4mFXtc *Uncertain how much $ changed hands, but certain that some did. We know that "We were wrong" cost Morningstar (Chan family $) about $600K. |
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| 07-15-2023 09:13 AM | ||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
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| 07-13-2023 08:05 PM | ||||
| OBW |
Re: aron's testimony To further underscore UH's statements, Nee is highly revered within many that I would refer to as second-tier leaders. While he may not be referenced much within schools of theology (I really don't know one way or the other on this, but suspect this is the case), I have been involved in at least one adult education class at a Bible Church the did a series on Nee's Sit Walk Stand. While I had been busy critiquing Lee on this forum and its predecessor, I had never delved into Nee's works and hadn't expected to find much there. While most would have considered Sit Walk Stand as a more pedestrian or "safe' writing, I began to recognize the precursors of Lee's "wait for the anointing" buried in its sequential structure that was stated as a pattern for spiritual growth. Since the class was both discussing Nee's book and going through Ephesians, I simply avoided the conversations on Nee's words and stuck with the scripture. But at that point, I was ready to dig into Nee and first read a little of his 3-volume tome, The Spiritual Man (I couldn't take too much of it). After that, Authority and Submission / (Spiritual Authority) came up in some discussion and I was onto it. I ultimately concluded that Nee could not be trusted at all. Not saying that nothing he said was correct. But you can say he same about Lee. It is the overt sprinkling of mishandling of the scripture that makes it unacceptable for anyone not fully on guard to it. Add the mounting evidence that he was sinful in a manner that should have disqualified him as any kind of spiritual leader and his position in the ranks of Christian writers should tank. The sad thing about this is that Nee begat Lee. And while we don't like to cast aspersions on the others that went out from Nee, and they may not have been a Lee, but they started with Nee and that is now disturbing to me. |
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| 07-13-2023 10:52 AM | ||||
| UntoHim |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
So my friend there is a need - a desperate need - that what Watchman Nee "said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what he has whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops."(Luke 12:3) What you name as "negative activities" God names as sin and a grave offense against the sheep he was supposed to be guarding. Let it be known by all that Nee has not been unfairly judged - he has been judged by his own words and actions, and even more so by the fruit that was produced - The Local Church of Witness Lee. May God have mercy. ~ |
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| 07-13-2023 09:57 AM | ||||
| UntoHim |
Re: aron's testimony Forum members and friends, There was, at one time, a very lengthy and contentious thread titled with the same name as the book in question. Unfortunately the thread got blown up by some real nasty and overly contentious dialog, and I had to shut the thread down, and eventually remove it from the open forum. I do have the thread archived but do not have the time or energy to do the necessary editing that would be required to bring it back online. There are quite a number of places on the internet to get substantial quotes from the book, and any forum member is more then welcome to start up a new thread, and I will let it stand so long as it does not get overly contentious and dominated by Nee sycophants and trolls. Quote:
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| 07-12-2023 08:24 PM | ||||
| Ohio |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
After reading Hsu’s account, I reconsidered WL’s story of WN’s “infidelity,” long accepted as gospel truth in the LC’s. For WL’s version of events to be true, we must assume that the Shanghai elders, appointed by WN himself, were complete dunces. Remember that Shanghai was the largest church, and the center of WN’s ministry. Could or would they make such a brash decision so carelessly without proper inquiry, without two witnesses, and without sober prayerful consideration? What would be the chances of that? What troubled me even more was how WN was “restored.” There was no repentance. The WN’s first message was to teach “handing over.” Unless one sold everything, giving the proceeds to “the ministry,” that one had no part in the work of ministry. Dr. Lily Hsu’s version of history makes far more sense than anything WL told us. Eventually, over time, I was forced to conclude that none of WL’s historical accounts could be trusted any longer. Every single one was suspect, and could only be accepted with 2nd source corroboration. |
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| 07-12-2023 10:35 AM | ||||
| Nell |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
We're looking for the topic. Nell |
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| 07-12-2023 10:14 AM | ||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
May I ask those who have read this book and other collaborating things, what is the percentage of confidence do you have, that what is conveyed in them is completely true? I ask this because I've read various things here and there over the years, both pro and cons related to Nee's behavior and activities (including retorts from his detractors). I've basically accepted that he did things that weren't good, and don't feel the need to dive too deeply into them. I personally don't have a lot of influence from Nee these days, so again, I just don't see the need to go that deep into what others report regarding his negative activities. So for those who have dove deeply into these matters, what is your confidence level that at least the majority of these things are true about Nee? 50% confidence? 100%? Thanks |
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| 07-12-2023 10:06 AM | ||||
| Nell |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
I'll look for the thread. Thanks- Nell |
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| 07-12-2023 08:59 AM | ||||
| Ohio |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
Nell, I tried to use the search feature to find this thread for Zezima, but was not able to locate it. |
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| 07-12-2023 05:34 AM | ||||
| Nell |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't know what you're expecting. Either read the book or not. No more of your cynical trolling. Nell Admin/Moderator |
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| 07-11-2023 09:35 PM | ||||
| OBW |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
And more than all that is in that book, Nee did the likes of BaKker, Falwell II, and Haggard one better. Nee returned from his exile for gross sins not only to retake the helm of the church, but with an arsenal of new teachings that would never allow a member of his little flock to ever charge him with anything no matter how sinful it was. |
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| 07-11-2023 12:23 PM | ||||
| Zezima |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
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| 07-11-2023 03:05 AM | ||||
| aron |
A gallery of rogues part 3 The use of the word "rogues" here isn't in the conventional sense of moral disapproval or disgust, since we shouldn't make moral characterizations of our peers. Rather, I'm thinking of the sense of a Christian who departs from the scriptural path, who usurps the charge to shepherd the flock, and who begins to beat and strip the other sheep of their covering of grace. Quote:
Jerry Falwell, Jr. Former President of Liberty University, a prominent leader of the Evangelical Christian wing of American Protestantism, and kingmaker in electoral politics. Head of a conservative university with strict moral codes, was found in various compromising situations (photographed in inebriated disarray at galas, involved in an affair with his wife and the pool boy). Now in a lawsuit with Liberty U over his severance pay. https://nypost.com/2023/03/15/jerry-...irement-funds/ Ted Haggard. One-time President of the National Association of Evangelicals and public hard-liner on the issue of homosexuality, was himself discovered to be using methamphetamines with his gay dealer, and engaging in sex acts with the same. After losing his role in the megachurch, was "restored" and started another group, and was eventually charged with similar things in his new position. https://religionnews.com/2022/07/26/...w-allegations/ Jim Bakker. Prominent Television-based evangelical, convicted of embezzlement of investments in a Christian theme park, for selling time shares for rooms that didn't exist. Ultimately, he was imprisoned for 5 years of an 8-year sentence, then paroled. Once out, he went right back into the business, sitting in front of a camera, asking for money. https://www.npr.org/2020/03/11/81455...ronavirus-cure https://abcnews.go.com/US/scandals-b...ry?id=60389342 The Jim Bakker story is illuminating -- no matter how badly the well had been poisoned, he still went back to it as soon as able. Even though his 'televangelist' career brought ignominy and federal prison, he went back in front of the cameras forthwith. Why? I can only surmise that the lure of easy money was too much to resist. All this was presaged by the WN & WL cases. Even when WL got booted from the Far East for his church-funded schemes with son Timothy, we see 10 years later that they were back in action, fleecing Americans for Daystar Motorhomes. It was simply too tempting to resist the siren call; easy money was waiting. We know that one church ponied up $200k - how much in total changed hands was probably considerable, for early 1970s standards. And then WN with his apparently corrupt business dealings with family (WN and his brother ran a pharmaceutical factory) causing some fair degree of turmoil, and then repeated allegations of sexual impropriety also imploding his leadership position. Once "restored" to "his ministry", he went back to his old ways. Put another way: when faced with the aftermath of repeating the old scams that were initially successful, and then collapsed into flaming ruins, or going out and getting an honest job like everyone else, these con men went back to scamming. The money was too easy, too good. When I read of WN demanding that church members "hand over" their properties after resuming his leadership role, it casts that episode in a whole new light. He was back in the game. |
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| 07-10-2023 08:01 PM | ||||
| UntoHim |
Re: aron's testimony Hey Mr. Z, please read this book and then get back to us! https://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgetta.../dp/1625099401 _ |
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| 07-10-2023 07:06 PM | ||||
| Zezima |
Re: A Gallery of Rogues Continued Quote:
What is being referred to here? Never heard of this before |
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| 07-10-2023 03:26 AM | ||||
| aron |
A Gallery of Rogues Continued Quote:
I didn't have a bad experience at all, and only noticed some small bit of heavy-handedness from the podium, which is endemic to fundamentalist Christianity. A kind of painstaking, self-benefitting care to define what is the line of propriety, and to note with some satisfaction that "we" are on the proper side of the line and "they" are not. I left because after years of call, call, call Jesus' name, I found that the promised inward metabolic transformation had not occurred. So I privately met with the leading brothers in my frustration, and they were not interested. It was a dead-end street, and I left, back to "Christianity", which offered me more hope for my spiritual journey. It took years to find out what was behind the veil. Even now, if the Nee and Lee cheerleaders admit something may have happened, they'll say, "Brother Nee was falsely accused of immorality..." But even then, they won't say that he falsely admitted to the same. Just the accusation, that it was false. No mention of his confession. Or Witness Lee, "Daystar was an attempt to gain funds for the furtherance of the gospel." No mention that WL's son was President and chief beneficiary of the project. How much savings did Timothy Lee lose when Daystar went under? No transparency. So my view of the entire project has dimmed over the years. Surely I need to repent for my participation. I got snookered, my ego got puffed - "God's best" and all that - and I got trapped by the insular, elitist, house-of-mirrors personality cult. We lift up one of our fellows, and by association, we're seemingly elevated, too. "Thank God I'm not in Babylon. I'm on Mount Zion, at the center of God's purpose." And when the signs show that it's not so, then the excuses start, selective emphases. |
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| 07-08-2023 05:07 AM | ||||
| aron |
A Gallery of Rogues I'll add something here - not wanting to create threads with every new thought, reaction or idea - and will tie it to my previous post about the problem of children making life-altering commitments based on duress or poor information. But first I'll introduce what I see as 3 related characters. Watchman Nee. One of the most influential Christian leaders, thinkers and authors of the 20th Century. Repeatedly removed from church leadership positions due to business dealings and sexual immorality. When the Communists took over, WN and the inner ring of his guanxi network tried to launder their wealth through 63 (!!) rank-and-file church members. No doubt if he'd gotten free, he'd have wanted it all back. Then, he openly admitted in court to producing pornography. His defenders say that admissions in Communist courts aren't valid, but why would he deliberately say something untrue? Either he lied to get better terms, knowing full well what his confession would do to the faith of those under his care, or else he told the truth, that he really did it. Either way, he doesn't come across as a Christian leader, or Spiritual Man, but rather as a fake and a fraud. Witness Lee. Brought WN's message to the USA in 1962, which eventually produced dozens of local assemblies, training centres across the globe, and hundreds of self-published book titles. He also pulled church members into his son's motor home company, many of whom lost a lot, some who lost their whole life savings. He put his other son, a known sexual predator, to repeatedly (!!) molest church members. We can't say that these trysts were consensual, because of the imbalance of power. WL's son was the Boss who sexually preyed on the help, no different from Harvey Weinstein the mogul, or any other serial abuser who uses position to abuse others. Witness Lee knew this, abetted it, and then ran whistle-blowers and victims out of town, to save himself and his so-called ministry. Ravi Zacharias. At his funeral, VP Mike Pence called him "the greatest Christian Apologist of this century." But then it came out that he was a sexual predator. He opened his own 'day spa' named Touch of Eden in Georgia (!!) and abused the help, who were brought in from other lands, and owned overseas properties for the same purposes. He also repeatedly made improper sexual advances to female associates in the USA. At one point or another, I was impressed by these men and their so-called ministries. I could make the list longer, and perhaps should, but for time and brevity can use these 3 to make related comments. 1. How anyone can live like this and look in the mirror every day is baffling. I can only surmise they they were under the influence of some controlling spirit. That they were not only "Christian" but "Christian leaders", but whose repeated behaviours violated the basic tenets of the Christian faith, of how to comport oneself and act towards others... and yet somehow kept up an internal narrative that "this all makes sense"... amazing what utter weirdness the human mind can house. 2. The so-called ministry acts as a funnel, to lure in victims, create co-conspirators (i.e. supporters and group members), and then to hide the abuse. Any 'good' produced exists to convince helpers, to bring in the unwitting, and then to cover if the sins are exposed. 3. The public defence of and support for Zacharias' life and ministry eventually collapsed when an independent inquiry showed that the allegations (which were longstanding and widespread) had merit, and that his 'ministry' therefore had no merit. But the legacies of Nee and Lee have both been able to avoid this discredit, even with allegations equally longstanding and widespread, for a variety of reasons, perhaps mostly cultural. Today, if one speaks of what happened with WN and WL, they'll say, "Nobody's perfect." It's survived and spread under some reprobate viral offshoot of Christian grace -- "Let us [continue in] sin, that grace may abound." 4. Until I recognized this, and rejected completely the influence of these controlling spirits, I was under their sway. There's no "eat the chicken and spit out the bones" trade-off. It's all bones and feathers. There is no meat - none. My life was a rolling series of disasters until I realized what utter darkness they were fronting, and by association, what I was fronting. I had to meet this influence on its face. There's no avoiding repentance, no deal-cutting. They may have avoided this basic Christian fact, but I cannot. 5. Going to my last post, it's also important to forgive. "Lord, forgive them, because they don't know what they are doing." Like me, WN, WL, RZ (and followers) made decisions and commitments based on unquestioned cultural values, youthful ignorance, social and familial duress, and self-interest, and were ensnared and then enslaved by the effects of such decisions and commitments. Jesus taught us to pray, "Forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive others for their trespasses against us." I won't be animated by bitterness, fear or anger. If I don't forgive, I can't be forgiven; see, e.g., Matt 6:14, 15. In sum, I can call a spade a spade, and not excuse or look away - call it out, reject it utterly, and leave it behind. "Get behind me, Satan." But it's equally imperative to make peace, being at least partly culpable myself... at some point, I also came under such influence. There's no basis to judge others for things that I fell to, even unwittingly. Because they also were unwitting. I can call out bad behaviour and the systems that engendered it, confess my part and repent. I didn't take anyone's money or sexually assault church members, but by supporting and/or condoning such so-called ministries, I participated in and facilitated what happened, a host of wrongs. And for this, I repent. Repentance isn't a place of judgment; it's rather a place of forgiveness, where the dreaded and rejected "other" and the damaged and rejected "self" are reconciled and healed: "As you do unto others, so shall it be done to you." |
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| 06-03-2023 06:43 AM | ||||
| aron |
Childhood Had a thought to share and decided to post it here. I was raised in the "hippy" era of the U.S., my parents did a lot of booze & drugs (Their parents drank heavily - my parents added drugs to that). It was a mess. Violence & sexual predation, etc. Then, during the "Jesus movement", our family was invited to a Baptist church & got the Baptist hellfire sermon, and everyone went up front & received the Lord. Now, I distinctly remember that a choice was in front of me: I could either sit there in the pew & let everyone else go up front, and be damned to torment for eternity, or I could be welcomed and forgiven by a loving God. But also, this abstract concept of 'salvation' was presented within a social setting. My whole family went forward! What was I going to do? Get separated from them?! I mean, I was like 7 or 8 years old. My point in recounting all this is that I probably would have gone forward, whether Muslim or Mormon or Zoroastrian setting. I did what I was told, which is how one got fed, clothed, and avoided (most) beatings. And, I wasn't equipped to intellectually parse the argument from the podium - I wasn't aware that down the road, Muslims and Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses were using similar recruiting tactics with other families. What I'm saying is that I became a Baptist just like kids all over the world become whatever they become - because it seems like the best option out of the ones in front of them. Usually they're part of a socializing system that tries to remove choices and options. "It is this, or else". Everything is designed to take away your ability to think, to criticize, to choose one from among a variety. My family eventually dissolved, as booze and drugs and violence won out, at least temporarily. So I left that shattered wreckage, and was ott & about, fueled by booze and drugs and anger. I was gonna punch you, before you punched me. Again, I was making the best choice that I could, given that my world-view pretty much consisted of drunken people punching each other. I was gonna get the biggest stick. Then, I got sober, and soon after was in the Local Church... in an AA meeting, they'd said, "Turn your life over to God", and so living in a brother's house, going to 7 meetings a week, sitting in the front row and bawling like a hungry calf made a kind of logical sense. Instead of shots of Jack Daniels it was "OHHHHHH LOOOOORRRRRDDDD JEEEEEEEZZZZUUUUSSSSS!!!" over and over again. Again, looking back, I can see why this seemed like a good choice in the context of that moment.* I got clean, and was living as a Christian. At the time, it seemed like I'd made a good call on that one. But the demons didn't go away. Year after year I lived in that brothers house, arranged the chairs for Lord's Day meetings, swept the sidewalk in front of the Meeting Hall. But the shame, the nightmares, the anxiety, the helpless rage, the obsession-compulsion behaviors, didn't disappear like I'd hoped and expected. And the local elders weren't interested in my case. One by one, they met with me, frowned as I shared my frustrations, as I told a non-LC story of not being healed, or 'metabolically-transformed' as they put it. And in so doing, they denied the reality of my existence. My story is that I made what seemed like the best choices at the time, given the limited amount of information at my disposal. And that goes for Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and the Local Church elders who denied my pain. They all have done what seemed best at the moment, within the constraints of their world-view which was derived from and permeated every aspect of their immediate socio-cultural setting. In other words, everyone's doing the best they can with what little they have. This has helped me to forgive and not try to place burdens on others which burdens they simply aren't equipped to bear. Everyone's doing the best they can, and some didn't get much to start with. Should I blame God for that? No. Rather, I can in each present moment choose peace, and find forgiveness therein. "If you forgive others, then God will forgive you. If you don't forgive others their trespasses, then God won't forgive yours." Pretty simple set of choices: forgiveness is offered as a reciprocal event, as a two-way street. *and the Local Church acculturation process is very good at removing choice. Everything you allow, everything you agree to, is carefully designed to remove options, and manipulate your mind further and further into a corner, until it finds no available options but to succumb. Only by seeing this, can one effectively begin to resist. |
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| 12-08-2014 06:13 PM | ||||
| awareness |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
In this speaking he's at a podium working from his iPad. He's speaking to an audience, sometimes specifically to young people, about the Bible, and he boldly praises his iPad, saying, "Thank you Jesus," while gesturing honorably at his iPad. So while claiming the internet is dangerous, he sells the iPad to his audience, even speaking specifically to young girls. In the end, isn't he just confusing us, by overloading us with information, to the point of making us skeptical? Isn't he guilty of doing the same thing he claims the internet is doing? McDowell is funny, brilliant, and widely and deeply informed. That's obvious. He's also an exceptional speaker. For a guy with no real credentials, he's become quite a phenomenal success, as an evangelical apologist. Apparently, like what Dr. Bart Ehrman is to New Testament scholarship, Josh McDowell is to Evangelical scholarship ; where credentials don't matter, just as long as Evangelical orthodoxy is taught and supported. And Josh stands out as doing just that. |
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| 12-08-2014 03:02 PM | ||||
| Dave |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
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| 12-08-2014 02:42 PM | ||||
| Cal |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
I like and appreciate Josh McDowell, but he is basically making the same argument the Catholic Church once made, that "those in the know" should control information for the good of the ignorant masses. McDowell, being of one those in the know, is also being condescending and insulting. If people cannot find the truth when there is an abundance of varied information, they certainly are not going to find it when information is rationed by some elite. OBW said, "if we presume that we are all intelligent and open to find the truth." But being open to the truth is not enough. One must be actively engaged in pursuing truth. I say let the opinions fly. Let the field be leveled. It's up to each of us to vett the ideas we encounter and pass judgment on then. If you abscond that responsibility then having someone spoon-feed you is not going to help and might produce a false sense of security. |
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| 12-08-2014 01:40 PM | ||||
| OBW |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
I know that we are not all that stupid. But the fact that so many things that could be the questions are stated as fact on the internet means that there will be a bunch of people who come across one version of some particular disagreement before they come across any other perspective. And it has been fairly well documented that once you have taken in any particular perspective as true, or likely so, you will be more likely to ignore contradicting information, even if it is ultimately true. Sort of a case of personal "first mention." So a free-for-all of information is not always helpful to any discussion. Especially when some have an agenda — even if not recognized — to direct things in the direction of their perspective. This is a difficult analysis because on one hand, if we presume that we are all intelligent and open to find the truth, then there should be no problem with differing perspectives as we enter the discussion because there is the expectation that as we exit, the answer (singular) will be found. Or the reasons why the different perspectives (or some of them) are valid in differing circumstances will be seen. But we are not talking about truth in the scientific realm which can be established by careful analysis and observation. we are talking about things that relate to faith and belief. And that belief is to some extent into things that are not entirely if at all) observable as in a scientific experiment. So there is a tendency to enter discussions about things of faith with an undue bias. Sometimes having already dismissed some of the possibilities, or having determined that perspective "X" is the only valid alternative. When that happens, there is no true discussion. Everything becomes strictly a matter of defending turf. Alternative perspectives are not even given enough thought to determine whether it might actually fit the place in the belief system better than the perspective already held. Of course, if there are no absolute touchstones to refer to, then, unlike a true scientific analysis, there is no solid basis to change the mind anyway. And that is the reason that in discussions of faith, there is generally something that is agreed as such a touchstone. But even then there can be problems. When discussing Christianity, most would agree that the Bible is a close to (and I believe should be seen as solidly) such a touchstone. But even if we all agree on that, there are reasons that it is not viewed evenly among those who refer to it. And the internet is, once again, not helping in this endeavor. Since most people who do not have regular theological training never hear about many of the controversies that have arisen over the centuries concerning Christianity and the Bible in general, they are set in their thinking about it, whether positive or negative, and if positive, whether Calvinist or Arminian, infant baptism or believer baptism (sprinkling or immersion), open communion or closed communion, etc. (etc., etc.) and the only reason for most of it is "that's the way I learned it." And that is too often based on into which family they were born. I would suggest that the two named camps on security fo salvation — Calvinist and Arminian — are neither entirely right nor entirely wrong. I honestly tend toward Calvinist with reservations. But I am unsure. But most people are sure because they were raised that way. Or they first came into Christianity within that "tradition." Of those who seriously contemplate what they believe a few will become so annoyed with the limitations of their base teaching that they make drastic changes. Recently the leader of the Evangelical society (or very recently past leader) converted to Catholicism. Not common by any means, but no unheard of, although at that level you don't expect it. Probably was a step taken because the way his journey in learning was taking him was not acceptable to those around him and he decided that his only way to continue in peace was such a drastic move. But you might be interest to hear that when my son was in seminary, he heard on at least one occasion that one of the most dangerous things for the Christian faith is the Bible in the hands of the average person. That was moderated quickly by stating that they did not intend to suggest that the average person should not have a Bible, but that the average person is quite unequipped to deal with the Bible as a whole on their own and are easily prone to lead themselves astray. Remember that the early church started with breaking bread from house to house, but listening to the Apostles for their teaching. Later, there began to be some who were trying to teach things other than what the Apostles had taught. And for a while, the Apostles were still around to counteract those teachings. But eventually, there were no original Apostles. No matter what you called the ones who were your teachers, they were looking back to ones before them for teaching. But despite the efforts to keep the teaching pure and proper, odd things crept in. Peculiar teachings about relics and icons. Then later about Mary. Then about the authority fo the Pope. And Saints. But through all of this, the core that could bring us back was still available. And some who were trained were able to find their way out of some of these. Even the RCC tended to "right ship" on some issues after enough time. (clearly not on everything.) Then came the printing press. And once people could afford it, they could own their own Bible and read it for themselves. That was both good and bad. The bad was that now we could think our ideas were better than those that went before. Add advances in education and the internet and the potential for chaos is rampant. But, after all of that, I believe that the truth is in the Apostle's teaching. And that teaching was not in numerology and ciphers, but in clear teaching from some rather straightforward words that were written down long ago. The truth in in there. It is within what we already have and know and see. It is not something never seen before that is buried within a novel new approach. For example, for a couple of years now, I have been asking whether the "great commission" was actually given to anyone outside of the eleven remaining apostles. Every time I ask the question, the idea is rejected because they have always heard it to apply to everyone. (And I do not mean to suggest that it does not in any way apply to all of us, just that the brunt of it was actually applied to certain ones and not everyone.) Jesus didn't give it to the rest of the people that had seen him after his resurrection. And when the church took off after Pentecost, it was not the rest that were teaching in the temple. It was the Apostles. And when we hear about who was going out to spread the gospel, it was the Apostles. And we really continue to follow that model in virtually every aspect of Christianity — even the LRC. It is the ones who have been trained at some level that are the ones who are sent to preach and teach, not everyone. Except that we think that the average person can just walk up to anyone else and present the gospel. And not only that, we think that it should be a regular part of their living. And if it is not, they are deficient Christians. I submit that if many of us just walked up to the average non-Christian and tried to convince them that the answer to their problems was Christ, they would laugh because it is clear to them that the answer to our problems is not dealing with our problems. And it is obvious to them. Yet we think that we are simply under grace and just need to confess and move on. Don't worry about it. It will change one day. Is that the image of God? Very long post. Rambled a bunch. Short of it is that novel ideas not yet heard are not worth their weight in the electrons they are now written in. Yet we still do not have a solid grasp of what it is that we are dealing with. I would submit that my questions are not invalid. But when I ask them, I expect that the real answer will come from several persons together who have real theological training that does not manage to simply dismiss me because I don't fit in their box. And in that I admit that I think that the best answer to many questions is dismissed out of hand by the only potentially reliable source because it does not fit in their box. And that makes even our little sandbox here of questionable value because few if any of us really have the training and knowledge to be those persons. |
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| 12-06-2014 09:45 AM | ||||
| awareness |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
Here's what I think is the big problem with entertaining alternative theories and views: An example is the internet. It's packed full of alternative theories and views. I'll allow Josh McDowell to explain it: Quote clip: “Now here is the problem,” said McDowell, “going all the way back, when Al Gore invented the Internet [he said jokingly], I made the statement off and on for 10-11 years that the abundance of knowledge, the abundance of information, will not lead to certainty; it will lead to pervasive skepticism. And, folks, that’s exactly what has happened. It’s like this. How do you really know, there is so much out there… This abundance [of information] has led to skepticism. And then the Internet has leveled the playing field [giving equal access to skeptics].” End Quote Apologist Josh McDowell: Internet the Greatest Threat to Christians http://www.christianpost.com/news/in...ll-says-52382/ |
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| 12-05-2014 12:52 PM | ||||
| aron |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
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| 12-05-2014 11:42 AM | ||||
| OBW |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
Now I will assert that some of the alternative theories surfacing in that hidden and locked forum are fairly clearly not worth spending a lot of time on. One thing is certain. If you start with the assumption that the Bible is the word of God (even if you can't stomach some of the assertions concerning "inerrancy") then some can be fairly quickly set aside as not true. That does not mean that of all the items on the table, one of them is true. The truth may still not be on the table. And while I am a rather conservative Christian with no major changes in my thinking about things in the past number of years, I believe that there are things that we accept as simply right that may not necessarily be so. Therefore entertaining an alternative theory is a way to either establish that what you already thought is more likely correct, or that something else may actually be correct. And simply quoting a verse is not the answer. The verse must be considered in its context and then compared to the question at hand to determine whether it is really talking about the same thing. We are too easily swayed by a verse that simply has a key word in it when the topic of that verse is actually irrelevant to the question at hand. |
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| 12-05-2014 09:53 AM | ||||
| Unregistered |
Re: aron's testimony Quote:
"alternative theory"?..alternative to what?..to the truth?..what does that make it?..a lie..yes, I think so..what does that make you?..a false prophet?...well..I'll let you answer that. Oh, brother, brother, brother...God have mercy on you! hope we see you when you get back from your journey up the garden path, bro. |
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| 12-01-2014 08:28 AM | ||||
| aron |
Re: aron's testimony I posted the below, in blue, on the now locked-out and password-protected 'alternative views' thread. Placing it here also because it is my own testimony. Moderator note: I don't plan on doing this much if at all. Just wanted to append this as a conclusion to both my discussions of theology (such as it is) and my own journey, my own testimony. Thanks for your indulgence. I was just going to say that I find it interesting that we have our theology, and we have the text. And if you look carefully you realize that the theology and the text don't always match. And if you start asking questions people say, "Don't read too much into it." In other words, don't pay any attention. Just recite the creed. And if you try to propose alternative theories, then people will start calling you blasphemous and heretical. So the moral is, ignore the text. Only pay attention to it where it agrees with your theology. That seemed to be Witness Lee's path, and it did him pretty well, no? He got a couple of hundred books published. Of course, I don't have any good answers. Actually that may be the best answer. The text says, "God loved us and sent His Son." The text says, "Love your neighbor." The text says, "If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that God raised Jesus from the dead, you will be saved." Maybe that is good enough. Probably Dorcas didn't get queried too deeply on her theology when she went to be with the Lord. Probably the fact that she loved the widows and orphans was good enough. Blind Bartimaeus shouted, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy!!" Good enough. |
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| 12-27-2010 10:27 AM | ||||
| NeitherFirstnorLast |
Re: aron's testimony Amen! Thank you brother - that is an amazing testimony and really echoes my own sentiments currently! I wish that there were more who remained and who could say that we truly do accept other Christians as brothers and sisters, and not merely as poor, degraded and even (as I've heard some say), evil. In Christ, NFNL |
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| 08-04-2008 08:46 PM | ||||
| YP0534 |
This is Hymn 1154 Quote:
and They love to me Draws me, ever to seek Thee and run after Thee, Draws me, ever to seek Thee and run after Thee. Thou art beloved, Yea! Altogether lovely, The One in whom my heart delighteth. Thou art beloved, Yea! Altogether lovely, The One in whom my heart delighteth. Thy love, Lord Jesus, Is sweeter than wine, And Thy fragrance of ointments My heart doth entwine, And Thy fragrance of ointments My heart doth entwine. A fount in gardens, A well of living waters, Which streams and flows from Lebanon's mountains. A fount in gardens, A well of living waters, Which streams and flows from Lebanon's mountains. O come Beloved, On my garden blow, That the odor of spices May break forth and flow, That the odor of spices May break forth and flow. My spouse, My sister, I'm come into My garden To feast upon wine, milk and honey. My spouse, My sister, I'm come into My garden To feast upon wine, milk and honey. |
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| 08-04-2008 06:56 PM | ||||
| countmeworthy |
Quote:
Apparently, my response to this thread/post got lost. I want someone anyone to post the words to these songs or is it one song?? so we can all join in ...in a sing-a-long!! 
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| 08-04-2008 04:37 PM | ||||
| Suannehill |
Quote:
Sue |
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| 08-04-2008 03:56 PM | ||||
| Hope |
Aron, thanks for starting this wonderful thread. Aron, The Lord is surely with you and in your sharing and in the other posts on this thread. His name is Wonderful and we can know Him and share with others in their knowing Him. Some of my most amazing times have been when meeting a stranger and the immediate connection that is made because we both know the Savior. On the other hand, I can remember more than once when meeting a LC saint at a conference etc and being checked out as to my loyalty to the program. I experienced this mainly from Chinese brethern from the far east. It was so funny when later they found out I was thick with WL or John Ingalls and they would actually apologize for not recognizing who I was. I do not know who all are the posters on this thread but I am enjoying the Christ you are sharing. Praise God!!!  Hope, Don Rutledge |
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| 08-04-2008 02:32 PM | ||||
| YP0534 |
Quote:
One of my favorites. I will sing it loudly on my way home from the office today. When I get home, I might even pick up my guitar and play it. Thank you for calling the hymn so that I may enjoy Christ! |
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| 08-04-2008 02:25 PM | ||||
| Suannehill |
Quote:
How about... I love Thee Jesus, And Thy love to me, Draws me ever to seek Thee And run after Thee. Thou art beloved Yea! Altogether lovely, The One in whom my heart delighteth... |
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| 08-04-2008 02:17 PM | ||||
| Suannehill |
Well, Ohio, it was extremely plain to all that I was undesirable and not "good material". It was just one brother and I don't remember him over calling anyone else except for an unfortunate sister who sat beside me and asked if the song was a good one to call...I nodded and he over called her. Obviously, he thought I told her to call it. She was very hurt. The over calling stopped when that brother "migrated" except for rarely obvious ones that didn't really belong. It gave me wonderful opportunities to die to self Sue |
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| 08-04-2008 01:05 PM | ||||
| Ohio |
Quote:
Another healthy way is to fellowship lovingly with the original caller of the song afterward the meeting about songs in general and which ones are the most suitable at various times. This is an opportunity to shepherd the callers, and appreciate their healthy desire to lead the congregation in song. The point is this ... the Lord is far more interested in the singers than the song, especially when someone like Sue feels demeaned ... when she had only hoped to help the congregation in song when she called it. This overriding concern with having "right songs" for "right meetings" was part of the disease which slowly crept into the LC's ... all the while losing sight of God, whom we should worship from our heart, and His children, whom he dearly loves. |
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| 08-04-2008 06:51 AM | ||||
| aron |
Quote:
But if we were whisked away, 64,000 light years hence across the inky seas of space, and found ourselves floating off Cygnus X-1 or some other star system, and ran into each other in the same space capsule, we would be like, "Wow, you're from planet earth!? Me too! A believer!? Omigawd, me too! Hallelujah!" My point is, that while I always try to see the differences, and respect them, all those myriads of things that make us unique, at the same time I think we all have a LOT in common. If the die-hard LC-ers and the adamant "opposers" (in some ways I could be called one by posting on this forum and daring to "discuss" Lee & Nee, etc) realized how much they had in common, despite seemingly intractable differences, the world would be a lot better place. Our oneness is not because we agree on some promulgation out of Headquarters, or on the interpretation of some obscure Greek word (I don't know Greek, sorry) but because we have each made decisions to acknowledge and attempt to follow God through faith in the Son of God, Jesus the Galilean, and this journey has led us to be gathered together. So, are we now going to squabble, or get along? If we squabble, the Lord will wait, as He has for so long; He is very patient! But if we allow ourselves to get along, because of His Name, we have His promise that "The world will believe that You(the Father) have sent Me(Jesus the Son)" (John 17:26). p.s.Sue, I am sorry for your experience. The "brothers" in my meetings were indulgent; anyone, whether brother or sister, who got a notion, foolish or otherwise, were allowed to let it run. We had some "flops" and some "duds", but we also had a lot of rich enjoyment when we got caught in the "flow of the Holy Spirit". p.p.s. Since I'm feeling loquacious this morning, I'll also add that I have learned not to judge others because I cannot say what I would have done had my local church experience been like Sueanne's. We don't need to judge others; that's why we have God, who is both righteous and merciful. |
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| 08-04-2008 06:32 AM | ||||
| countmeworthy |
Quote:
I have a correction to make. Just so there is not any confusion.  the following quote: ... I loved it when I called a song and everybody sang it and enjoyed it. It made me feel like I belonged, like my experiences, my touch with God mattered. Or when I prayed or spoke and somebody would continue in the line of my prayer or speaking when I was done. "Hey, they are listening to ME!" Wow. I loved it.is Aron's experience. NOT mine. I don't recall ever calling out any songs. That was mainly the 'brothers' job. Very few sisters ever called out any songs to my recollection in my locality. I personally 'knew' better. I think I was blessed with insight & intuition. I dotted the i's and crossed my t's almost always. That kept me from getting into trouble, I think. Suanne, I'm sorry you experienced such humiliation!! If we end up going to the 'annual' Ladies retreat..you're going to be the designated 'Song caller'. .......Love YA-Sister!
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| 08-04-2008 05:13 AM | ||||
| Ohio |
Quote:
This misuse of authority may be one of the reasons for the current conflict in your place. You are probably not the only one who confronted it. |
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| 08-04-2008 04:08 AM | ||||
| YP0534 |
Quote:
How many ways can they invent to screw up the assembly?!  Suannehill, what was your favorite song to call? I would like to sing it now. |
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| 08-04-2008 04:03 AM | ||||
| Suannehill |
Quote:
My experience was not so pleasant. Each time I called a song, one particular brother over called it. After years of that I stopped trying. Sue |
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| 08-03-2008 01:17 PM | ||||
| countmeworthy |
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by aron I am very, very grateful that not only did I get saved but shortly afterwards I was plunked down by God in the middle of one of the 'local churches'.... I loved it when I called a song and everybody sang it and enjoyed it. It made me feel like I belonged, like my experiences, my touch with God mattered. Or when I prayed or spoke and somebody would continue in the line of my prayer or speaking when I was done. "Hey, they are listening to ME!" Wow. I loved it. [QUOTE] I remember those times too aron.  It did make us (most of us) feel as if we were respected.We felt as actual contributors to church meetings. The pulpit leaders shared and we participated by supporting the message via a testimony or an insight received from the message.. Too bad more congregations don't allow for that. It is the 'PASTOR' in charge & him / her alone..& their close cronies. |
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| 08-03-2008 11:07 AM | ||||
| aron |
On being an 'opposer' Quote:
I am just a sinner who one day believed into Jesus Christ. I determined to follow Him as best as I could. One day on that journey I was introduced to the concept of the "Normal Christian Church Life" as promulgated by Mssrs Nee & Lee and practiced in the 'local churches'. I resonated with the concept, and the gathering I met with (everyone got to pray, which I thought was marvelous!), and therefore went down that road for a pace. Eventually I got sick of what I felt was a willful ignorance of the rest of Christianity, along with the continual negative comments of how "poor" everybody else was but us. I decided that the "normal" christian life would be to embrace all who have the faith, however "poor" their condition may seem to be at any given moment. God can raise up the poor from the dust, and drop the highfalutin' ones back into the dust. So I began to practice what seemed to me to be a more 'inclusive' christianity and meet others on their turf, however 'leavened' that turf seemed to be. So I want to go on record (not that anyone is tossing and turning all night wondering) that I am not interested in opposing the legacies of Nee or Lee or anyone else. The universe contains many things, and one of these things is the notion of "God", or Source, Originator, Creator, etc. That which lies behind all things, that which called all this we see into being. The meaning and destiny of the universe, or at least the chunk of it available to me. And in all these notions and concepts of God as Reality, there was this person Jesus. Like in the Roman Catholic church, where I met for a while upon entering my spiritual 'quest'; there were all these Biblical characters on the wall and in the stained glass windows: there were Peter and Paul and others, Noah and Moses and Elijah, and Jesus as well. Jonah was getting eaten by a whale (or spit back on the beach in some versions), David was staring down the menace of Goliath, and so forth. A lot to consider there. Well, one day in my considerations of all these things, with all their permutations, I realized that the light shining from Jesus was getting brighter and brighter. It was drawing me, attracting me from my considerations of other persons, concepts, and things. As I began to focus on this person Jesus, the light got brighter and brighter until I couldn't see or consider anything else. Everything else disappeared in His glory. That was when I knew I had found The One; I knew that my search had ended and my journey home to the Father had commenced. Jesus was the answer for me. And so my journey hopefully continues. I have no intention of opposing anyone. I just want to follow the Lamb, Jesus, wherever He goes. Naturally the journey is full of failures, but hopefully even more full of repentance and resoration and praises. And especially full of learning and changing and growing, and not making the same mistakes twice (or seven times, or seventy times seven!  ). That's what I love about the journey -- I don't have to wait until the end of the trip to see if I did a good job at it; instead I get to "die daily" as Paul did (I Cor. 15:31).So this is hopefully an amplification, a reinforcement of my previous statement, quoted and bolded above. I just want to go on. Like I wrote in my comments to OBW's avatar, "The child is father to the man". In my youth, I was all about enjoyment in the world. Fun, fun, fun, was all I cared about. Party forever. Eventually that dried up, but my 'party', my celebration, continued when I found the living water that never runs dry. Today I don't oppose anyone; I just go on, trying to follow the flowing river. Peace to all who read this. |
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| 07-18-2008 10:33 AM | ||||
| Ohio |
Quote:
Quote:
How did he know? I too was a "very unhappy young man who didn't know how to live." I am also very grateful for those "who took me in." |
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| 07-18-2008 07:54 AM | ||||
| countmeworthy |
Quote:
My enthusiasm stems from listening to 'Positive Speaking' the WORD of God teaching CDs, listening & singing to Praise/Worship music, Reading & Meditating on scriptures, fellowshipping with the LORD & with the saints. (Sometimes I even go to bed listening to Praise/Worship music or teaching cds.) Jesus is TRULY the KING of my life. I want Him to be the KING of every person's life for IN HIM is the FULLNESS of GOD. In HIM is the JOY of the LORD & HIS JOY is our Strength! There truly is something 'supernatural' when we speak the WORD of GOD into the atmosphere with a heart of gratitude and thanksgiving as we give Praise, Honor & GLORY to our KING! The Anointing of the Holy Spirit keeps falling strongly on me..and thus my cup runneth over. It spills over to my brothers & sisters in Christ. It even spills over unto the unbelievers...so even the unbelievers are being splashed with some of the GLORY of God. Ok...I went on a rabbit trail here.... let me try to remember what I really wanted to share with you..... oh yes... People who never had the church life we had did not miss out on God's anointing. There is a reason some of us were in the 'church life of the LC' & others were not. I feel God led me to the LC to get rooted & grounded in the Word of God, to receive the vision of the building of the Body of Christ, to LIVE the book of Acts, (at least in part & for a season.) I then wallowed in the valley of the shadow of death for some 25 yrs. Ohhh, when I think about Jonah.....that was me. When I think about JOB, that was me (including the awesome end to his story.) There's a lot of Joseph in me too. I'm sure my testimony is not exclusive. All of us have walked through the valley of the shadow of death.. some longer than others. Mine was lonnnnnng. I was more stubborn & rebellious than Jonah. But because I wandered in the wildnerness for as long as I did, I can relate to some of those characters sooo very well. Truly GOD has turned my mourning into DANCING for me! From my natural man perspective, there is a -special- connection, a thread of gold connecting SOME of us who were in the LC. BUT I certainly don't want to go back or live in the past! Some people who were in the LC suffered greatly. Marriages & families broke up. :-( May God heal the broken hearted & restore the Joy of the LORD in their lives. I'm taking the GOOD I received while in the LC. I am taking the GOOD I have received from the Word-Faith, Positive Confession Word, applying it to myself, seeing & reaping the fruit and splashing it with everyone I know, as I allow Christ to splash on me through His Word and His church! That is why I have soo much enthusiasm. My enthusiasm is not only real but it is growing day by day. Sometimes I feel like I'm going to experience a heavenly explosion in my spirit, soul and body!
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| 07-18-2008 06:52 AM | ||||
| aron |
Quote:
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| 07-18-2008 06:50 AM | ||||
| aron |
Quote:
Yes, it was a good spiritual boot camp. It was my 'rehab' from the years of excess in the world. I will forever be grateful for the experience. Especially for all the kind people God sent me, who took care of me, prayed for me and with me, and especially gave me an example of how to live in the house of God! God was very merciful to me to give me such an experience to sever my 'old ways'. Like you, I believe the Lord put me there, and after a season, He pointed me elsewhere and said, "I have other sheep that I want to to meet." So I followed Him as best as I could. Full of missteps, haltings, errors, but I followed. I have to comment on your "People who never had the LC church life" statement that I underlined. to I don't want to disagree so much as to perhaps modify it. I believe that while every one's experience is unique, it is our responsibility as christians to bridge the gap, to find the common experience of us all. Jesus was the Master. No one was outside his touch. Even the "Religionistas" I believe will eventually find the Lord. I say this because the Old Testament prophets, after thundering doom and judgment, inevitably say that Israel will turn and repent and be healed. This 'type' I hope bodes well for all. I think even Egypt sees God's glory in one prophet's vision. So while I won't disagree with your statement, I want to say that it is our responsibility to make it disappear. I know that's kind of cryptic but that's the best I can do for now. Thanks for commenting, cmw. I LOVE your enthusiasm! Every now and then during my day your capital letters swell within me in praises and thanks and glory and honor to God. Amen, Lord Jesus!
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| 07-18-2008 06:29 AM | ||||
| aron |
Quote:
But even worse was the people you were dealing with. There are a LOT of unhappy people out there! I suspect in the gospels they would be characterized as 'demon posessed', or some such. Very unstable, lots of darkness. To me, physically fighting with other people over drugs and money was probably the low point. The story of the prodigal son, fighting with the hogs over husks, really resonates with me. Anyway, I wasn't a really evil man. Just a very unhappy young man who didn't know how to live. I was not the 'good material' that the Headquarters was pushing for. But the local 'troops' took me in and treated me as if I did, in fact, matter to God. And for that I will be eternally grateful. |
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| 07-18-2008 06:17 AM | ||||
| aron |
Quote:
Like me, and, I suspect, like most if not all of us.As far as overstaying its usefulness, I have to agree. But I note that I also overstayed my time in the drug and alcohol-fueled realm of anger, resentment, self-pity and alienation. So my overstaying is only partly due to a system which, in effect, says "You can't leave". I have to admit some responsibility there. I am slow to respond to God. But hopefully I am doing better! God wants progress. Perfection will come in due time.
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| 07-18-2008 05:51 AM | ||||
| countmeworthy |
Aron..... You are an example of the WORD of God....the Spirit of God renewing our mind, blessing us with the MIND of Christ. Your testimony is similar to mine with the exception that before I got into real, real trouble in the world, I got saved throught the LC saints. I too needed the structure & discipline to grow into the person Christ wanted/wants me to be. I often refer to my first couple of years in the LC as BOOT CAMP. And like you, the LORD led me into the LC and led me out. I'm forever grateful I didn't suffer the hardships in the LC many saints did. I'm thankful as well to re-connect with soo many brothers & sisters in Christ who were in the LC. People/Christians who never had the LC church life we had are unable to understand & 'connect' the way we have. That does NOT mean our connection with people & Christians who were never in the LC is shortchanged. It is NOT. I am very, very thankful to the LORD for all the people HE has brought into my life. What a blessing we have to re-connect with former LCrs, current LCrs & non LCrs! But it makes sense of course.....because WE are BLESSED and HIGHLY FAVORED by the MOST HIGH GOD! For we are ROYALTY. We are a are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people. We show forth the praises of Him -KING JESUS- who has called us out of darkness into His most marvellous light! (1 peter 2:9)Thank You for sharing your testimony with us!
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| 07-18-2008 05:26 AM | ||||
| Ohio |
Great story Aron ... amazing grace indeed! I finally found someone I can relate to!
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| 07-17-2008 08:04 PM | ||||
| SpeakersCorner |
Aron, I enjoyed your testimony. You write honestly, a quality that is as rare as it is valuable. SC |
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| 07-17-2008 07:35 PM | ||||
| finallyprettyokay |
Aron: Thank you for sharing with us. What a great story --- God is amazing, huh? I totally agree with your conclusions. I think so many of us came into the LC because there was some family-ness to it. I sometimes think it compared to a commune (the hippie way), only on the straight and narrow. I certainly needed that. And I needed the straight and narrow. I think even the strictness of all the 'rules' and peer pressure was a good thing. Like you, like many of us, I had come from a history of a lot of drug use, and all the things that go with that life. So feeling clean, being clean, was so good for me. I think it saved my sanity, if not my life. So, I don't think coming to the LC was so bad. I do think I overstayed it's usefulness. At some point it became damaging to me, not healing. Well, to be honest, there was always an amount of damaging-ness to it. When I saw the 'brothers' come in from their 'elders' meeting, something in me was always offended by that. I just never thought Jesus was behind that sort of caste system. Big shots, little shots. And my husband and I were part of that inner group --- still, in my heart of hearts, I knew it was wrong. Anyway, I think I just overstayed it's usefulness, it's healing time for me. Stayed 10 years, 2 or 3 would have been good. And this, that you said I disagree with the characterization of 'christianity' as 'degraded'. Everything on this earth is degraded. Only God is pure.. Yeah, only God is pure. And we can find Him in all sorts of places. I wrote lots about this in another thread, so I won't belabor the point. But, yeah, only God is pure. Thanks, aron. |
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| 07-17-2008 07:19 PM | ||||
| aron |
aron's testimony I am very, very grateful that not only did I get saved but shortly afterwards I was plunked down by God in the middle of one of the 'local churches'. There is a line that I love in Paul's first epistle to Timothy, in chapter 3, where he says "I write to you that you should know how one ought to conduct themself in the house of the living God..." I learned how to conduct myself in God's house during my stay in the local churches. I had been an unruly teenager, very antisocial and antiestablishment. I got kicked off the schoolbus, got in trouble with the school, got in trouble with the police, got in trouble with neighbors and schoolmates. I was very rebellious. My morals were bad -- I would steal, cheat, and lie. I would bully and threaten those whom I could. My poor parents! After high school I was too smart to become a worker in a factory. I became a drug dealer. It just sorta happened...I was doing drugs and hanging out with drug users and there were some opportunities and I took advantage of my good fortune. I liked to lay on the beach and congratulate myself on being so fortunate, as I watched all the workers driving to thier jobs. But it wasn't all good. When problems arose, as they inevitably do, you can't go to the police. My group got robbed and we had to settle it with violence. This lifestyle went on for several years. I think my parents didn't want to know what was happening. They were just glad I was out of the house. I occasionally had a job for a short time, but as I said I was bad at rules. And I had a drinking and drug lifestyle to attend to, and work interfered with that. At one job I had, someone spoke to me about Jesus. I was working in the mailroom and in front of all our fellow workers (there were about 5 or 6 of us in the room) this fellow accosted me about my faith in God. He had made a declaration of God's goodness, and I made a snide remark and he just went at me in front of all these people. I was quite taken aback by his boldness. I never forgot that man. Years later, I began to consider God, and one day I was reading the Bible and I believed. It was one of the gospels and they were writing about Jesus, what He said and did, and I thought, "If this guy isn't real then I don't want reality. This is what I want. This is why I came to earth. To see this man." I was so clear. Jesus is the one for me. I began to church-hop and soon I met the saints and I was in the front row. We'd sing and there would be a row of empty seats in the front, opposite me. Eventually, the 'brothers' would troop in, with their shiny brown shoes and their shiny leather briefcases. They had been praying in the elders room at the start of the meeting and they all walked in together. I was very impressed. Then the saints began to pray. Not just the men in front, but all the people there. Again, very impressive. We got into the Bible, verses after verses after verses. All I could handle. The saints were very nice. I went into their homes, met their children. But I had no social skills, no graces. I didn't know how to hold a door open, how to say 'please' and 'thank you'. It was quite a change. But I wanted to change so I forced myself. They were very nice with me. Nobody tried to force me to do anything. I just went to the meetings and read the Bible and prayed and called on the name of Jesus. I loved it when I called a song and everybody sang it and enjoyed it. It made me feel like I belonged, like my experiences, my touch with God mattered. Or when I prayed or spoke and somebody would continue in the line of my prayer or speaking when I was done. "Hey, they are listening to ME!" Wow. I loved it. So I in no way consider myself an opposer, though that is how I heard about people who were "against the recovery". I had a great time, people were very nice to me, the elders were not bossy, I got into the Bible, it was wonderful. I am very grateful and appreciative for the experience. My family was somewhat concerned with what I had gotten myself into, because they were not religious and my new friends were obviously very religious. But it certainly was an improvement over my former lifestyle. I remember my grandmother, when I was in the height of my rebellion, telling me she would come and visit me when I was in prison. But God was merciful; instead of prison I ended up in the local churches calling on the name of Jesus! Yay!I am very, very grateful I got saved and got plunked into the local churches. It was a good experience for me. Eventually the same voice within that had led me thus far told me to meet with other christians. I needed other perspectives. So I did. I had some prejudices at first because I could quote so many verses, sometimes more than the pastor, that I was arrogant. But I quickly noticed how much some of these other christians loved God, and how much they enjoyed thier salvation. Sometimes more than me! That made me stop judging the walk of others. I left because I was taught in the local churches that all christians were one, and I wanted to practice it. I didn't want to sit in the same room forever with the same people and pretend we were one with all the christians out there who we were either ignoring or saying how 'poor' they were. I didn't like that part of Witness Lee's ministry at all. I also needed to learn how to think for myself and I really didn't see that opportunity arising. It's okay to make mistakes. I don't have to be perfect. I want to learn and grow and try new things. So I left. But I am not upset at how I was treated, or what I was taught. It was a good place to start my christian voyage. I truly believe God put me there by His sovereign hand. But eventually I wanted to see other christian fellowships and I moved on. I disagree with the characterization of 'christianity' as 'degraded'. Everything on this earth is degraded. Only God is pure. Those who judge others are just showing how much they lack. I wrote this testimony to make 2 points: 1. To get saved and come into the local churches is not always a bad thing. It can be a pretty good experience. It was for me. 2. To leave the local churches and fellowship 'in christianity' is not a bad thing either.
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