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| To God Be The Glory! A Place to Praise, Honor and Glorify our God! Words of Praise and Encouragement. Poems, Hymns, Prayers, Words of Wisdom, Knowledge and Prophetic Speaking |
Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 12-28-2010 08:06 AM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me UntoHim I must not be that smart of a fellow. I don't know what you mean ,desire here. It seemed you desired to discuss the gospel. Perhaps you just want to discuss Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Perhaps you just want to discuss error of Witness Lee. Or perhaps something else. The Logos we post under is "what the gospel means to me". I have kept to that subject. This obviously is not what you seek. Therefore, as you desire, I will not post in this thread further. I can't seem to understand what you seek, or if I have anything to contribute. Forgive my irritation. I wasn't trying to do that. Scribe |
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| 12-27-2010 07:44 PM | ||||||
| UntoHim |
Re: What the Gospel means to me My friend Scribe, You seem to be a bit of a "one trick pony". Now that's all well and good except for the fact that neither the pony nor the trick fits into this thread very well. This forum exists as a community of former and current members of the Local Churches associated with the ministry of Witness Lee (and Watchman Nee). I stood up for your right to post as you wish on the "Blogosphere" (and will continue to do so), but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to keep your pony and his one trick at bay here on this thread. You seem like a pretty smart fellow - you know what I mean when I say The Gospel, and you know what I mean when I talk about "Lee's gospel". Your last post simple ignored these facts and continued on your merry way. You also have failed to address my contention that the apostle Paul stated that The Gospel (the one I am talking about) is of "first importance". Maybe you have a larger grasp on the Greek text then I do - if so please let me and others in on your insight. My contention is that there is NO FURTHER GOSPEL to be taught or preached then that what is related to us in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The apostle Paul plainly related this very fact to us. My contention is that Witness Lee went further then what is plainly related to us in the Word of God as it relates to The Gospel. I think you know this by now. If you have a retort to my contention then have at it - no problemo. But please leave the one pony and his one trick out of your reply. |
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| 12-27-2010 04:55 PM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
I am a gentile. As such, when Jesus came it was not to me. Surely His blood was effective even for me, but He came to the house of Israel. I don't have a gospel unless the Lord had opened the door by Peter and sent Paul through it. When that gospel is taken up by me, I am surely equipt to walk in the reality of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But I have no way in unless I have the gospel Paul has brought to me. Paul brought the right hand of the fellowship only Israel possessed. With that right hand, I am able to handle the Word of the truth, which is the gospel of my salvation. Ephesians 1:13 BY the gospel I am able to take up my cross daily and measure my steps in holiness. Paul came through the region of Galatia annoucing the gospel. Barbarians received. Churches were raised up in a number of Galation cities. Paul laid hands on the believers but then had to leave them and move on to other cities. He expected that they would treasure the unspeakable gift his hand put upon them. He expected that they would daily handle the Word and be taught of God. He knew the Word would grow in them and mature in them, opening their eyes to all the vast riches of the gospel. What he did not expect was that Jews would come from Jerusalem with another gospel. In fact, he was stunned, and shocked, when he heard that the Galations were being swayed by these Messianic Jews. Surely the gentile believers thought highly of Jews coming from the apostles in Jerusalem. But I must say, It is only because the Word was young in their hands, and had not yet established the vision in their writing, that these Jews could draw them away. These ones propagated two errors. 1. that we need the law plus grace to be saved. 2. and once we are His, we need to add in law to be perfected. Both of these took them away from the simplicity he had placed in their hand. So in furry, Paul turns his pen back to Galatia. He shows clearly that his gospel is one of direct revelation and all that have it also have direct revelation. By this revelation Christ lives in them and they abide in Him. I do not see "a higher" gospel.....I just see the gospel that is the Word of the Truth. Nor do I see a "lower" gospel, but there is "another" gospel. The gospel brings me to the total condemnation that is upon all men. Then the gospel justifies me by the blood of Christ. This blood alone deals with our sins and accounts us righteous. Then the gospel arms me with the Word that sanctifies by hands on writing. That Word deals with my sin nature. In the growth of sanctification the gospel brings us into glory. In this glory we then see Israel. The gospel then uses us as a vehicle to raise up Israel and guide Israel into transformation by again handling the Word.(which makes us active in bringing Israel into Matthew, Mark, Luke and John reality). And then the gospel goes out again from Israel to shepherd the nations into the glorious millennium of His sabbath. This is the gospel. As Paul turns back to Galatia he is fierce. He doesn't send any well wishes or blessings in the introduction. Nor does he send any greetings to any in the close. He is set to war for the gospel. His gospel is not sent to bring us into the religious world, but out of it. In the religious world all are too pour to handle the Word. (as I have written in other plases, todays Judaism forbids writing on sabbath. But until Jews can writing in the gospel on sabbath, they shall be held in darkness and shall oppose any that enter. That evil world is crucified to him and he to it by the very Word of truth he writes daily. He calls the Galations to take up the cross in hand for it is the gospel. Again, this is why he takes us to Abraham at Galations 3:8, to show that as Abraham wrote the gospel spoke to him. And to Habakkuk 2:2-4 at Galations 3:11, to show that to write the vision is the way of the faith of the gospel. Any gospel that does not arm me with the Word of the cross that I take up and write daily is the "another gospel" and is a curse. The gospel is the living God walking hand in hand with His people. "As many as shall walk by this RULE, peace be upon them" Galations 6:16. Scribe |
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| 12-27-2010 03:29 PM | ||||||
| UntoHim |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
Well the title is "What the Gospel means to me" so I guess you could call it a declaration if you want. "Declaration" sounds a little too official for my taste, but yes, since I'm posting this on a public forum there is an expectation of dialog. I welcome it, it's what this forum is all about. I think the problem may be that you are holding on, to one degree or another, to Witness Lee's "additional" gospel, and Lee's gospel, at the very least, is an additional gospel to one I am speaking of. While Lee and his followers would call his gospel "a higher gospel" or "recovered truth", many Christians, including a number of former LC member such as myself, would beg to differ. The Gospel that was preached by the Lord Jesus, and then by his chosen witnesses in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John has been accepted and taught by the majority of the Christian church for about two thousand years now. Of course there have been a number who have preached and taught an "incomplete" gospel, or even a corrupted gospel. History is replete with these "another gospel"s. Then there are those, such as Witness Lee, that fall on the other end of the spectrum - they preach and teach an "additional" gospel. Witness Lee is not the first one to proclaim that Paul's teachings were to be considered "higher" or "deeper" or even “further” then The Gospel that is proclaimed in the Matt, Mk, Lk and Jn. Lee is the one that I am most familiar with, hence I am most comfortable in discussing it with others. So yes, I invite any and everyone to discuss what The Gospel means to you, but I will be challenging anybody who wants to make Witness Lee’s teachings as the baseline for what is to be considered The Gospel. As I noted before, even Lee himself stated, in so many words, that he had an additional gospel to preach and teach. A few years ago one of the “trainers” at the official “training” related this very thing – that Lee and his followers have a different or further (I’m paraphrasing) gospel then Christianity, and that they had been getting it wrong for all this time. A part of this message is posted somewhere on this forum – I will point you to it when I have time to dig it up. |
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| 12-27-2010 12:37 PM | ||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: "The High Gospel" I once had an experience concerning the so called "high gospel" that convinced me to discard this concept in the dumpster. I was on a 3 day field trip. The last night of the trip around the campfire the stories were quite lewd. The next day in the van on the way home I began to preach the gospel based on word in Genesis "Adam, where are you?". I think we had about 16 students in the van, I was in the back seat, and the "life of the party" was driving. The message seemed to really strike a nerve, the van was very silent, and I was feeling satisfied. Inside the Lord was saying "tell them to repent! Tell them they could die today they need to repent!" I said, "No Lord, I speak the high gospel, I wouldn't cheapen my gospel like that." After a minute of this the Lord said "I don't have any more time to waste with you." At that moment the driver pulled out to pass the car in front of us. We were on a two lane highway, going up a hill, and he crossed a solid yellow line. It was as though all 16 people collectively held their breath. Inside I was repenting to the Lord. When we pulled even with the car in front another car appeared over the hill coming our way. Our driver (and the driver of the car we were trying to pass) both immediately hit the brakes, so it looked as though we were joined at the hip. As soon as he realized the other car had hit the brakes (and apparently this was also true of the other driver) he hit the gas again. Still, we were joined at the hip, traveling about 60 mph into a head on collision. He then signaled to turn left and pulled off the road into the dirt on the edge of the ditch. Since then I consider the entire concept of "high gospel" and "low gospel" to be the invention of people who know nothing of the gospel. |
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| 12-27-2010 09:08 AM | ||||||
| OBW |
Re: What the Gospel means to me What is the gospel to me? I said a bit in post #7. And while I agree that many have hamstrung the gospel into a decision in favor of a proposition that causes a once-for-all-time transference from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light (often referred to as a “ticket to heaven”), I do not believe that the term “higher gospel” is such a good term, especially as used by many, including the LRC, that want that higher gospel to be about “spiritual” things and not so much about our daily lives in our families and in the world. UntoHim started with a poem/song. I will do the same. This one from the UK in the mid 90s. This is the message of the cross, that we can be free,Some may say that this is just about that simple first step of salvation that is the “low gospel.” But I beg to differ. Look at the three choruses. They start with the two words “You set” but are different each time. The first speaks of when I came to the cross; the point at which I made that transfer from darkness to light. The second speaks of “us” in a way that is not certain as to its object — whether many broken, unsaved people, to the ongoing condition of even those who are already saved, or both. But the last is clearly about my condition of relying on the continual saving of the cross. Not in terms of initial salvation repeated, but in the kind of salvation that we must be active to work out. But when I think of the gospel, I think of various passages in the “gospels.” I start with Matt 5 and following. Here we find the condition of the kingdom people:
It is important to understand John 6:28-29 where it is stated that doing the work God requires is to believe in the one he sent. Yet some “high gospels” turn this into excuse to omit all the things I have mentioned previously. They elevate “believing in” in a way that is not what is meant here. “Believe in” does not simply mean to assent to or to have a mental knowledge of something or someone. It means to believe. And so if that someone says to do certain things, then the one who “believes in” will seek to do those things because to do otherwise is to make a mockery of your alleged belief. Then in John 8:31-32, Jesus speaks of the truth that sets us free. But it is not from scouring the scripture. And it is not from speaking a “higher language.” It is from holding to Jesus’ teaching. And once again, holding to does not mean to know it well, or stand firm for that knowledge even against opposition. It means to do it. And doing is not just in meetings. It is on the street and in the workplace. It is not just “spiritual” but in practical righteousness. It is how we behave among the unrighteous. It is how we haggle over prices in the marketplace. It is how drive our car in rush hour traffic. It is how we behave toward people that we consider the worst sinners (think marches in opposition to gays, abortion clinics, illegal aliens, etc.) I am not saying that any of these may not be legal and/or moral offenses. But how does the Kingdom of God act toward them during this age? And then there is Paul. Gave us a lot of help. Especially for the Gentiles trying to find their way in a religion based on Judaism. But when I read Lee’s take no Paul, it is as if he is trying to find the truth in Paul’s words about being crucified with Christ and trying to live as crucified rather than doing what Paul is telling the Galatians. He is telling them that even if they have been given freedom, they should be seeking righteousness. The point is not to try to live as “crucified with Christ” but to be obedient to the call to righteousness. To seek being crucified with Christ is to seek the truth that sets you free without holding to the teachings. Hold to the teachings and the rest will follow. Yes, our salvation freed us from needing to obey the law — but not if you read Matt 5. Ignoring the law, and teaching in that manner is the way to be the least in the Kingdom. Not out of the Kingdom, but the least. Trying to find the truth that will set you free outside of obedience is a spiritual farce. And that is what so many “higher gospels” are about; finding the truth that sets you free outside of obedience. The more we are focused on the ethereal during our regular life, the more we are trying to avoid obedience and still get what the gospels promise. I recently heard a brief comment about spirituality. They likened spirituality and the spiritual as being the way that man relates to God. And if we take the examples from Genesis and the Psalms, among others, we can find that our relationship with God was not intended to be a constant, never-ending time of falling on our faces saying “holy, holy....” He created the angels for that. He created us to have daily tasks, and our own lives, and within those tasks and lives to relate to Him. Sort of like we do with our families. Whether with our spouse, siblings, parents, or others, we do not obsess over any of these at all times of the day. We think of them off and on at times, but they have their time of the day. And even at that time, for example, from the time you arrive at home until you fall asleep, you are not constantly focused exclusively on your spouse. You still have a normal life that includes, among other things, real time spent focused on your spouse. But many “higher gospels” want to refocus us to such an extent that our “time at home” is all about our “spouse,” even to the ignoring of making dinner, taking out the trash, paying the bills, or whatever. And once you are good at that, you should constantly be figuring out how to think about your spouse while you are making fine cabinetry, designing infrastructure or software, keeping the company’s books, selling its products, or whatever you do to provide food and shelter for your family, or while going o school if that is where you are in life. The “higher gospel” people want you to be half-assed about your normal life (quite a testimony, for sure) so you can be “spiritual” all day. Now I do not despise the ethereal aspects of spirituality. But they have a place. I am not saying that it is relegated. But it is part of a whole life. It is not your whole life. It seems so odd to me that those who focus so strongly on being spiritual all the time think so poorly of those who willfully do acts of kindness out of their love for God. And they think so poorly of those who thoughtfully focus on the awesomeness of God as they partake in aspects of tradition, like reciting a creed, reading a prayer together, singing songs (like “The Message of the Cross” above) to the accompaniment of guitars, drums, keyboard, bass, etc., or coming to the front to pray. I feel sorry for those who think that their whole life is a series of spiritual events into which they have to relent to allow the “low” things of life to interrupt. That is not how it was from the beginning. And it was never that way in the scripture. Note that it does not say that in that day, two will be calling on the Lord in the meeting. One taken and the other left behind. In fact, among the examples, all were engaged in normal activities of life. Spirituality, is something that happens among — not in place of — life. The gospel is everything about our life, from rising in the morning until laying down to sleep at night. It is in our work, our play, our eating, our interacting with everyone around us, etc. |
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| 12-26-2010 01:05 PM | ||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
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| 12-26-2010 09:03 AM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
Amen ZNPaaneah. UntoHim, I am not sure what you are looking for here. Is the title of this thread merely a statement of UntoHim declaration of what the gospel means to you, or is it invitation for us to also share what the gospel means to us? How far reaching is the gospel! So I offer UntoHim. In whom you also (gentiles), having heard the Word of the Truth, the gospel of your salvation" Ephesians 1:13. Here we clearly see that the gospel is the Word of the Truth. The gospel is a hands on experience. It is Jesus raised and coming in the flesh, branching hand to hand as the Word of the Truth. What we know of the gospel we have read from others writing. Their writing is geared to bring us into the fellowship of the gospel. ZNPaaneah, currently I am partaking of a two year daily writing, with a number of saints in Paul's writings. I recently came to see that Paul quoted Habakkuk 2:4 in Romans, Galations and Hebrews. I saw that these books are as outer court, Holy place and Holy of Holies. By laboring in these as such the other books arise between into a full view. Galations is the Holy Place....crucial book! Scribe |
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| 12-25-2010 11:48 AM | ||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
After these 4 books by Paul the other epistles of Paul deal with the growth in life in various stages. (I am excluding Hebrews). |
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| 12-25-2010 08:41 AM | ||||||
| UntoHim |
Re: What the Gospel means to me 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 (emphasis mine) For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures I agree with Mike that the gospel should be acted upon, not just accepted and believed, but this is not really where I was going with this thread. Neither did I want to go off in the direction that Scribe seemed to be taking us. Nobody has to agree with what I wrote in the first note, but can I ask that we limit our comments to the matter at hand? There are many other boards on the forum to cover just about any topic. I would say “Paul's gospel” was the very same gospel as we see presented in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and I have presented the verse above to bolster this contention. In checking with the original Greek, and in accordance with the context, the apostle Paul is stating rather plainly what the gospel is to him, and what he received. While Paul was not a personal witness to Christ's death and resurrection (as Mt, Mk, Lk and Jn) he did receive this very same gospel directly from the Lord Jesus (remember that "who art thou Lord" experience). Paul apparently went on to receive many other "visions and revelations of the Lord" (2 Cor 12) but told the Corinthians that he could not boast in these further visions and revelations, but would rather boast in his weakness: "Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong". Weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties? Now who else went through these things for our sake? This is another integral part of THE Gospel, that Christ suffered these things for our sake and for our salvation. Witness Lee claimed that Paul's epistles to the Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians were “the heart of the divine revelation”. While Paul related many high and deep revelations in these epistles, only THE Gospel should be considered “of first importance”. Again I would submit that “Paul’s gospel” was nothing more and nothing less than the gospel that is presented by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All further doctrines, teachings and revelations are of lesser importance. Doctrines, teachings and revelations cannot save a soul. And if our Local Church experience proved anything, it is that teachings, practices and even revelations cannot change or transform a person. Only The Gospel can do this. The New Testament links all the major attributes of God to the gospel – power, love, holiness, righteousness, grace, mercy and so much more. As I was writing here I was reminded of the last verse in the wonderful hymn “Hast thou heard Him, seen Him, known Him” – ‘Tis the look that melted Peter ‘Tis the face that Stephen saw ‘Tis the heart that wept with Mary Can alone from idols draw Those of us oldies but goodies out there can surely testify that teachings, practices and revelations (even biblical ones) can become an idol of sorts. But the gospel, The Gospel preached by the Lord Jesus and then by his chosen witnesses, can and should be an idol to us, for it takes us to the very One who is to be idolized, worshiped and adored. I think the apostle Paul was getting at this when he proclaimed: “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Gal 6:14) We know Paul and the other apostles taught and wrote about more than just the cross, but what did they “glory” in? What was the foundation of their lives? From where did they draw their strength to suffer and endure and become the first pillars in the church and the original champions of the Christian faith? Was it from their wonderful and advanced teachings and revelations, or was it from The Gospel? So what about us today? What is the foundation of our lives – both personal and corporate? Do we preach this gospel without ceasing? (owch) Do we glory only in the cross? (owch) Do we live out this gospel to the world around us? (double owch) Yeah I'm pointing a finger at ya'll - but when I'm pointing a finger at someone there are three fingers pointing right back at me. (triple owch) |
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| 12-14-2010 04:26 PM | ||||||
| OBW |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
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| 12-14-2010 09:36 AM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Ephesians 1:3-14 (Darby Translation) 3Blessed [be] the God and Father of our(Israel) Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us (Israel) with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ; 4according as he has chosen us (Israel) in him before [the] world's foundation, that we (Israel) should be holy and blameless before him in love; 5having marked us(Israel) out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6to [the] praise of [the] glory of his grace, wherein he has taken us(Israel) into favour in the Beloved: 7in whom we (Israel) have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of offences, according to the riches of his grace; 8which he has caused to abound towards us (Israel)in all wisdom and intelligence, 9having made known to us (Israel)the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10for [the] administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth; in him, 11in whom we (Israel) have also obtained an inheritance, being marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will, 12that we(Israel) should be to [the] praise of his glory who have pre-trusted in the Christ: 13in whom *ye* also(gentiles) [have trusted], having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye (gentiles) have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is [the] earnest of our (jew and gentile) inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession (Israel) to [the] praise of his glory. In these twelve verses Paul lays out the mystery of Christ in a sentence. I have added the parenthesis so we can see who Paul writes of. In v 3-6 The Father choses and predestinates Israel before the foundation of the world. This is His eternal purpose, to bring Israel to sonship. In v 7-12, he shows that Israel has been redeemed in the Son. The Fathers will is accomplished. Israel is selected and predestinated to sonship and is redeemed in the beloved, accomplished, but they are unaware. This is where the gentile enters......"In whom you also"v 13-14......Unless we also are called into our great and glorious portion, there is no application to Israel. But when we hear "the Word of the Truth" which is the gospel of our salvation, we become sealed and have the pledge that equipts us to redeem the acquired possession! When we hear the Word of the Truth we have the gospel in hand and are able to begin to apply it to the Jews delivered also into our hand. This is the sign of Revelation chapter one. The Word of the Truth is the gospel! With the Word of the Truth in hand we are equipt to apply the gospel to Israel. We are able to shepherd them into the revelation of who they are in the Father's heart. Scribe |
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| 12-14-2010 09:02 AM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
S Quote:
Once again you twist and make up what I have not said. This is because you can't hear. You filter all things through your bitterness and pre-conception. We are made to judge all things! God intends to dwell in man and judge His whole creation from man. We judge the world, we judge the angels and we judge ourselves. At every writing we judge ourselves worth or unworthy. Paul tells us we cannot judge from the condemned place in the gospel, but clearly in the sanctification portion we judge all things. Most of the judgments you say I judge you with, are just my agreements with your own judgment of yourself. You say "in my Bible there is neither Jew nor gentile". You judge that only the church is on your Bible. You judge that a man can't walk hand in hand with the Word, and yet you write as if you had meaning in your writing. Quote:
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Anyway, you do what you have to do. "in the defence and confirmation of the gospel" Scribe |
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| 12-13-2010 11:25 AM | ||||||
| OBW |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Too much randomness to respond to. But on the following I will respond. Quote:
So you think that the fact that our natural man is fully condemned, therefore we have no basis to say anything that is critical of another? Then on what basis does Matthew 18 exist? Why should the brothers in Jerusalem even considered the complaint of the Gentiles and submitted it to their "council" in Acts 15? Further note that Matthew did not say to not deal with the speck in your brother's eye. He said to deal with your own beam first. And you clearly do not believe that we have no basis to judge another (whether or not "judge" is the proper word in the context) because you expound your judgments post after post. You even judge my Bible, suggesting that it is small because, in one context, I note that there is no Jew or Gentile, while in another context, clearly there is Jew and Gentile. To try to make those two contexts into one is equivocation. Appears that your judgment of my Bible is a matter of your own error in understanding the meaning of words and their contexts. I should probably just leave you alone. There are some who are wondering why I bother responding to the sound and fury of these self-claimed "writings of God." And my answer is that unless I intend to abandon this forum as having been taken over by yet another crazy ministry, I will not simply ignore so many off-topic and off-the-reservation posts and let them stand unchallenged. Quote:
You clearly believe that your word is special and anointed and that anyone who disagrees is merely writing from self and not from truth. Yet your word is spreading over this forum like a plague of locusts. It is not about Nee, Lee, or the LRC, but is the fanciful writings of a self-proclaimed writer of scripture. And when you finally spell out your reason for believing that you have this special position, your claim will be seen as little more than another "transference of the mantle" of one deluded charlatan to another. Do not expect to find any followers here. Even if there are lurkers, they are not as soft-headed as you must hope. |
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| 12-13-2010 09:44 AM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
You have a very small Bible then. In my Bible there is the church composed of those called out of Jew and gentile. The church is the body of Israel's messiah. The chruch is the heavenly bride The church is become as the angel. There is no Jew or gentile, male or female in the Christ. The church is the heavenly called out. And is the Holy spirit of the great mankind. The churches separation from Israel did not end Israel anymore than it's calling ended the nations. In my Bible and my gospel not only does the church enter glory, but then that same church becomes the instrument through which God raises Israel from among the dead and establishes him as royal priest before the nations. The church is son of God to Israel and Israel is firstborn son of Jehovah. Exodus 4:22. The church comes down upon Israel as bride joining to her husband. Jesus the groom is sown in Israel to respond to the churches heavenly ministry. This marriage is in my Bible. This is the selection part of the gospel which follows upon the glory, as I have outlined below. But the gospel does not end there. Yes the church is the holy of holies and Israel is the holy place, but then the gospel goes out to the nations. Israel stands as a holy priest to shepherd the nations into David's kingdom. All the angels watch this grand vision playing out in man. And my point to you is......if the Lord had not used Peter to open the door to us, the gentiles, and if He had not sent Paul through that door, and if James and the other Jews had not given him the right hand of fellowship, we would have no entrance, no gospel! If you do not carefully attend to this matter, you have "another" gospel. Our gospel comes directly from Pauls hand and we must be careful to attend to it. As the Word must cut straight separation of your spirit, soul, and body, the ministry to and of the church, Israel, and the nations, must be cut straight. As much as in Christ there is no difference between you and your wife, for there is neither male or female, so in Christ there is neither Jew no gentile. And also, so as much as you do keep destinction of the male and female betwen you and your wife in the world, so is there destinction between Jew and gentile. The church is called, not to confuse this, but to sanctify it. If you can't see this you are in danger of all the judgments written by the hand of Paul in Romans 1. Quote:
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"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the Truth in unrighteousness" Romans 1:18 The third thing that happens is the Word rules and we learn to submit and enjoy the right hand of fellowship. The obedience of faith you write of comes out of hearing and obeying the Word. He is real to defeat you and me. If we write incorrectly he will adjust us, if we write deceitfully we build a case against our own self and we stumble over our own writing and shall be removed. All hold the Truth, but not all come to the revelation of the Truth. You say we can't be trusted to handle the Word. I say the revelation of the Word of the oath is the uniting bond. I do not determine that you are a false writer. I believe you are writing exactly who you are and this is by the hand of the Lord. The Word is greater even than a man's revelation or faith of Him. Just as Jannes and Janbres opposed Moses with their staff , so are men today. In time the Truth shall stand and those that have faith in Him shall be found leaning on the staff of the Word in hand. I do know that there is a spirit of anti christ that fights to keep the revelation of the anointed Word from man. And i know that it is especially hard to walk as a man in the name of the Arch angel Michael. Nevertheless, it is Christ who loves in us and our faith if the son of God arising in us. So there is hope for all, even a man named Michael, Quote:
Blessed be the fellowship of Michael and Scribe. And blessed be Israel from the hand of the church. Scribe |
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| 12-13-2010 08:13 AM | ||||||
| OBW |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
But that is not the same as saying there is no such thing as male and female, husband and wife, etc. To suggest otherwise is a form of equivocation. You are mashing two different discussions that share a word together (but in their separate contexts do not mean the same thing) and making them one. And for what purpose? To mock my honest critique of your talk about me being Gentile. Quote:
And I do not "judge" your teaching. I cannot do that. I can only give my honest critique of your words when placed up against the backdrop of scripture. And when I say "scripture," I am not suggesting that my own imagination qualifies. Just because I might write from what I believe to be inspiration of revelation concerning God, Christ, the church, etc., it does not remove my need to be sure that the existing scripture is in harmony with it before I make even a feeble claim as to its correctness. But if I allow my own writing to raise to the level of scripture in my own mind, then the whole of scripture becomes illogic in all parts. And the call "come, let us reason" becomes irrelevant since there is no longer an agreed measure of truth. If I can write and I can call it truth, and you can write and you can call it truth, then if we disagree there is no hope for reconciliation. But if we both can write in the manner you suggest, then one of two things must happen:
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| 12-13-2010 07:37 AM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
Quote:
Is the Word you write God? And if not, how do you presume to judge me our my teaching? Scribe |
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| 12-12-2010 08:30 PM | ||||||
| OBW |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
And Paul judges no one. God is the only one who judges. |
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| 12-12-2010 09:52 AM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Mike. I think you are a gentile. I am also. We are far off, without hope, without God and in the world, unless Paul was separated and sent to us. We have no gospel without Paul. Even now it is judging both you and I. It is separating us. His gospel is sent to bring forth obedience of faith in us as a heavenly bride for Israel. Scribe |
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| 12-11-2010 10:37 PM | ||||||
| OBW |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
It is must be lived before it can be preached. It is evidenced by changed lives. It is the true "formula" that makes those changes. While it is good to know and understand it, it is better to do it and obey it. Seeking sanctification is not the gospel. Neither is seeking transformation, glorification, or even justification. But the gospel will provide all those things to those who truly believe and follow. I had a brief discussion with my wife this evening about this. We agree that it is not harmful to understand the spiritual realities that happen because of our obedience to Christ. (Paul spent a lot of time telling us about those things as the reason that we should be obeying.) But seeking to know about them, and seeking them for their own sake outside of obedience is just as natural as doing the works because you think they will save you. It just has a more spiritual sound and so few would consider that it is just as great an error. Both are out of balance, and can be followed in the erroneous belief that you are following Christ. All of the "spiritual" activities that are irrelevant to the rest of life are just our "sacrifices" (even if they are of praise). If they flow out of our life of obedience, then they are a pleasing aroma to God. If they are in lieu of a life of obedience, then we should recall that God loves obedience more than sacrifice. |
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| 12-11-2010 04:39 PM | ||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: What the Gospel means to me So, OBW, what does the gospel mean to you? |
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| 12-11-2010 12:47 PM | ||||||
| OBW |
Re: What the Gospel means to me Quote:
This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. First, your version seems to say that God judges "according to my gospel" whereas the NIV more clearly puts the judging in context of "through Jesus Christ" first, then Paul adds that it is consistent with the gospel he is preaching. He is not saying that God is acting according to Paul's gospel, but that Paul has correctly understood how God will judge and has included that in his gospel. But your snippet is out of context. In context, excluding the parenthetical portion in verses 14 and 15, Paul says: For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.... This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. So the whole of Paul's writing here can be summarized into the little phrase (which has already been misread in earlier posts) of being doers of the word and not hearers only. And while Paul says a lot of truly wonderful things, they are too often taken as substitutes for the gospel that Jesus spoke. I hate that some will take what I am going to say as an endorsement of a particular ministry that wants to ignore all of scripture outside of the 4 gospels, but here goes. The gospel is primarily found in the "gospels." You can find a lot of commentary in the other NT books, but the source is the gospels. When we read Paul and determine that there are a lot of "spiritual" things that have to be done to move through the various stages of spiritual growth, we are misreading Paul. He is not adding to the needs. He is explaining what is happening spiritually when you actually do and obey. But the doing and obeying is in relation to what Jesus says. What God has said. Just like we need James to remind us that if we are not doing, the spiritual is just a farce, we need Paul to remind us that there are spiritual things that underpin the doing. Paul does not say to ignore doing and instead be spiritual. But that is what Nee taught, and what Lee taught. These are your "watchman" and your "witness" who lead you. Yes they lead you away from the "simplicity of the gospel." They lead you away from doing and into being spiritual. And whether they lead you to this "writing" thing I cannot say. But it would not be an unreasonable extension of their impractical, uber-spiritual worldview that requires no foundation of doing real life, through the Spirit, in a righteous manner. Yes, sanctification, transformation, glorification, etc., are wonderful things. But they are not rungs of a ladder that we willfully climb. They are spiritual realities that occur as we deepen our love and our faith by living and doing according to that faith and love. This notion of writing, and all the LRC focus on uber-spiritual "activities" is a distraction from the real Christian job of living and obeying. To the extent that they have correctly understood and identified spiritual realities, they have cheapened them by thinking that they can pursue those realities without undertaking the activities of obedience and faith in their daily walk in the world. |
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| 12-11-2010 09:16 AM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me "In the day that God judges the secrets of men according to my gospel through Jesus Christ" Paul Romans 1:16. Paul's gospel is our judge. Peter tells us , " our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist, as also the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16 At Romans Paul has laid his gospel before us. He sets forth his introduction in 1:1-17. Then he lays his gospel before us in seven parts. The gospel is really the glad tidings. It is the Word of the oath coming to us in it's sevening. Each tide must develop by the Holy Spirits work in us to give ground for the next. 1. Condemnation 1:18-3:20. Here the Holy Spirit brings us to full condemnation. At this stage none can judge for all are judged equally condemned. Only when the Spirits work is mature in condemantion does the second tide come. 2. Justification: 3:21- 5:11. Here we see that the Lord's shed blood has removed all our sins and we are thus righteous. Most of christianity waffles back and forth between condemnation and justification because the condemantion work is not mature enought to fully open justification. There is still trust in self. But when we see we are fully justified by his blood, then the third tide comes. 3. Sanctification. 5:12- 8:13 In the first two our mouth is sufficient, but in the third measure our hand must be discovered and applied. Justification deals with our sins by his blood and the testimony of our mouth. But at sanctification the glad tidings deals with Sin and transfers the holy nature into us. Here the unspeakable gift branches into our hand. Here John 17:17-20 activate to us. We measure our steps in holiness. This leads to the fourth tide. 4. Glorification. 8;14-39. At each measure of sanctifications maturity the church enters glory. Glory is the result of sanctification. In glory the church is fully mature. Out of foretastes of glory we have the holy way to approach Israel. Then out of the glory comes the fifth measure of the glad tidings. 5. Selection. 9-11. This is where we remember Israel. Out of the glory we reach forth to remember and recover Israel into the sanctification fellowship. This is where Revelation chapter one opens. The faith in the glorious church reaches out on the right hand and connects with the faith of Israel on the left. From faith (ours) to faith (theirs) the righteousness of God is made known. 1:17. Together the glorious church walks hand in hand into the sixth measure....the transformation of the selected Israel. 6. Transformation. 12:1-15:13. Hand in hand with the church Israel matures into transformation and is ready to shepherd the nations the church is called out of. This brings in the rest of the seventh measure of the gospel. 7. Consumation 15:14-16:27 the nations offered acceptable in the hands of Israel, with the church. This gospel judges the secrets of all men. Scribe |
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| 12-09-2010 04:08 PM | ||||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: What the Gospel means to me I am reminded of when I first prayed to Jesus. I was raised as an Episcopalian. Around my 13th birthday I was seeking, got down on my knees and prayed "Lord I want to see You when You come down in those clouds". The Lord responded "You will, and furthermore I say unto you that you are a son of God". That really blew my mind, I had never had the thought that I could be a child of God. All things were new after that. |
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| 12-09-2010 08:48 AM | ||||||
| Scribe |
Re: What the Gospel means to me UntoHim, This is a good line you have began. What is the gospel? What is another gospel? What does it mean to me? When we write of "another gospel" we are in the book of Galations 1:6-11. We thus mean, a gospel which is not that which Paul has brought to us. Paul's gospel is the measuring line. It is not Witness, or Watchman, or Wesley, or Luther's gospel. It is Paul's! "Another" is a gospel that is not that which Paul has brought to us. Blessed be Paul's gospel. Scribe |
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| 12-03-2010 07:52 AM | ||||||
| UntoHim |
What The Gospel Means to Me The secular world has a saying " the gospel truth". Yes, even the world knows it's true, even more importantly they know it's the highest truth. Other things and other events may be true, but no other truth means so much or has affected the course of history so much. No matter how much this truth is discounted by the lost men of this world, or corrupted by well meaning (and almost as lost) religionists, this truth stands alone at the top of the mountain of all truths. Even all the other truths revealed in the Word of God must take a subordinate position to this truth, for if The Gospel is not true then every other so-called truth means nothing. I think the apostle Paul was trying to get this point across to the Corinthians when he wrote "and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." Wow Paul, you mean if this one thing, this one truth is not true, then our faith is worthless? What about all those other wonderful, deep and lofty truths you taught about? The most amazing thing about the gospel is that it is a truth only for us humans. All the principalities and powers, and even the angles have to sit back and watch in wonder and amazement. Regarding this phenomenon the apostle Peter wrote: "It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look" I would think the angels would want to look into all sorts of things, like the creation of the heavens and earth, but what they really want to know about is this Gospel, this truth. Why would the God of the universe come to these "lower" creatures, stepping down to their lower level? Apparently 1/3rd of the angels rebelled and fell along with Satan, but what about these lower creatures, it seems that they all rebelled, they all fell. As far as we know, those fallen angels do not get a second chance, but will be thrown into the abyss with Satan, but we earthly creatures get a second chance. This is The Gospel, and this is the highest truth revealed in the Word of God. As far as we humans are concerned there is nothing positive without this gospel. There is no redemption, no salvation, no transformation. There is no church, no kingdom, no resurrection and no heaven. Witness Lee was not the first one to come tickling people's ears with a "higher gospel", and he will certainly not be the last, but for the purposes of this forum we can and should discuss his "higher" gospel. Over the years on these forums there has been a lot of heated discussions on whether or not Lee preached "another gospel", and even "another Jesus". As one who heard hundreds and hundreds of Lee's messages, I find any contention regarding these matters almost amusing. Of course Lee preached another gospel, for he practically came right out and said as much - in so many words. Actually Lee's gospel is not so much another gospel as it is an additional gospel, but the affect it has on those who imbibe it is the very same as if it were another gospel. As for "another Jesus", well in my experience and observation over the years, anybody who preaches another gospel IS preaching another Jesus. Another gospel IS another Jesus. I have much to say regarding this but won't ramble on further here, except to give all thanks and praise to the Lord that I am being delivered from another gospel and am returning to "the simplicity which is in Christ". I've got a long way to go but at least I feel I'm heading in the right direction. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the balled of a cross and a crown and the man who was so punished though no fault in him was found The scoffers would mocked him even his own would flee Still with his last breath "Father forgive" was his plea This is the balled of a cross and a crown and the man who dreaded the first then in the garden fell down For He knew his Father and he knew his good will So he stood in our place He stands as our Advocate still This is the balled of a cross and a crown and the man who suffered and died for all the sinners he found Seeking them first and then he would save Then the lost that he found became the gifts that he gave This is the balled of a cross and a crown and those who must pick up their own and come follow him now For a cross must come first only then comes reward along with the cherished "well done" from our Lord |
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