Originally Posted by Ohio

That was Samuel Cheng, who was Watchman Nee's brother-in-law, who warned Don Hardy back in the '60's. Brother Don later lamented that the Taiwan brothers, due to dangerously strong influences from their Chinese culture, never warned the American saints of the many dangers associated with the Lee family, especially his sons Phillip and Timothy.

Looking back, we now have half a century of casualties of American saints because that warning was hushed. Think about how many dangers and offenses would have been prevented had Witness Lee heeded this warning.

I often tell others that the only reason we should ever raise our voice is for danger. When others are in danger, we have an obligation to speak up. This forum allows us to "raise our voices."

Originally Posted by Drake

I once had the opportunity to visit Corinth and near the center is a public square with an elevated platform where all civil topics were discussed.

Originally Posted by Drake

70x7 indicates there is no true repentance...

Originally Posted by Drake

-3

Aron,

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Furthermore, the Master is the only One qualified to mete out justice and He does and so the servants leave the matter in His capable hands.

Drake

Originally Posted by aron

I think forgiveness in vv 21,22 is assumed to be corresponding to repentance. Without repentance, the telling of one or two then becomes a broadcast. (vv 16,17)

Originally Posted by aron

I made the point also from 2 Corinthians 5. Where is the reconciliation with this group? Where is the "ministry of reconciliation"? Who do they ever forgive?

Originally Posted by aron

I'll never forget the Chinese brother who told the American brother, "You have to watch out for Witness Lee's family". Then he clapped his hand over his mouth & said, "Oh! I shouldn't have said that!"

No, he should have said that. He should have said that, repeatedly, and loudly, until the problem was resolved. If you know of an evil, and don't warn others, you become responsible for the destruction that follows.

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSM with her Blendeds demand forgiveness from others they have offended, but refuse to repent to these ones. They banish brothers, yet refuse to hear them.

Originally Posted by Drake

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Originally Posted by Drake

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Furthermore, the Master is the only One qualified to mete out justice and He does and so the servants leave the matter in His capable hands.

Drake

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So let's share what we learned. I learned a lot and I am thankful for it and I feel I have matured as a Christian as a result.

Originally Posted by For science

I have a general interest in cults. Personally, I feel that LSM is a cult. Obviously, it is not of the Jim Jones variety. But LSM-type cults are by far the norm, not the Jonestown and Heaven's Gate extremes.

I felt the accounts given by the survivors in this forum were very articulate and educational. Thank you for all the time you spent telling your stories. This is the best cult-survivor forum I have seen so far, among ones that are specific to a given cult.

I am not religious, but I am interested in the science behind religion. By that I mean what biologically goes on in the brains of people who experience religious experiences such as: being saved, getting enlightened etc. Aside from that, I am fascinated by cult psychology and group think that are innate to us all since I feel that understanding these is critical to growing as a civilization. It effects politics, war and even simply being a consumer in the marketplace.

Originally Posted by Drake

You're trying to stovepipe the whole. Serving ones could be be involved in different aspects in some way several times a year. To use a secular analogy its more like a university and the different aspects are the colleges. The people who manage the university can be involved in different colleges but all are under the same policies and practices of the university. The co-workers, no matter their specialty all agree on the need for one publication and they use that as a common touchstone from which to execute their individual function.

That makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't it work that way?

At minimum the "we" and "us" are the co-workers the signatories to the document. However, if you asked the brothers and sisters in the local churches if they hold the same sentiment I am pretty sure that the majority would agree. Yet, technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.

Originally Posted by aron

The Local Church isn't some pure replacement for "degraded Christianity"; rather, like the JW and SDA and Mormons, it's a poster child for it. Post-Protestant Christianity is full of delusional, self-styled "Seers" and their misled captive flocks. As such, it's worth discussing this group in it's larger context, that of religious, self-appointed "deputy Gods" manipulating gullible and ignorant people for their own personal gain. One can learn a lot - the LC isn't the only unbalanced Christian group out there.

Originally Posted by Drake

I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I would second that. This forum definitely filled in the blanks on a lot of things I didn't know and helped me make sense of my experience in the LRC. It also helped me to move on so that I could "give thanks for all things" and testify "that all things have worked together for good".

I have noticed that the impression is often given that what we experienced in the LRC was a strange thing.

Jehovah Witness — 150 million
7th day Adventist — 25 million
Mormons — 14.8 million

In addition experts estimate that 2.5 million Americans have joined cultic groups and had their kids raised in that environment in the last 30+ years https://www.icsahome.com/elibrary/faqs

Originally Posted by Drake

At minimum the "we" and "us" are the co-workers the signatories to the document. However, if you asked the brothers and sisters in the local churches if they hold the same sentiment I am pretty sure that the majority would agree. Yet, technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.

Originally Posted by aron

The royal "we"; everyone in LC-land knows what it means.

Originally Posted by Drake

technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Originally Posted by Trapped

2. The One Pub is signed by "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery". If it is simply about what LSM will publish, why wasn't it signed by LSM, rather than by a group who purport to represent and direct the entire Lord's recovery?

Originally Posted by Trapped

Originally Posted by Trapped

The meaning I had assigned to "countless" is more like "many but uncountable", mostly by virtue of it being an internet forum. Not countless in the sense of the sheer number who have been helped is so vast it is impossible to count, which I don't believe is the case, even though its impact is not insignificant to those who it has helped, and I believe it has helped many. If I'm not mistaken, I think in the U.S. there exists an approximate count of saints, so as you said, if the whole is countable, then the lesser part who leave cannot therefore be "countless" or "uncountable". I had interpreted "countless" as "unable to be counted", since really, we don't have a way of counting, which I think is evident from my posts where I reference people being helped who never spoke a peep here.

But yeah, I don't think we disagree on this, just maybe a slightly different interpretation of a word that once discussed is made clear.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by aron

Hear, hear. The "Spiritual Authority" in the LC is self-created and then imposed on others, who accept it because, well, it's "spiritual authority". Doesn't matter if it is illogical and capricious, if it's at variance with the Bible and even one's conscience. It is the vehicle for the kingdom of the self, writ large. As Jesus repeatedly taught, it's "the way of the gentiles", but it should not be that way among the disciples. (Matt 20:25,26; cf 1 Pet 5:3)

Originally Posted by Trapped

"Among us" is one of the many subtle phrases distributed throughout the document to extend LSM's self-imposed restriction from LSM onto the entire Lord's recovery...

.. the One Publication IS about being "restricted" to "one publication" "among us". I am glad you do not follow it, but your not following it does not validate it's position.

Originally Posted by Drake

Okay, sure, Trapped.

I, like you, have limited time. So my responses will be bite size like a conversation and not dissertationesque. We can always go back and pick other points up.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

This may seem like a minor point in this discourse but it isn’t. The reason that it is a very important point is that many posters in this forum fall into the same false argument from silence. What do you consider countless? You said numerous posts. Numerous is not countless. Was it 5? 10? 100? Even if you point to a 1000 passerby’s that is not countless. The fact is you, I, nor anybody else can point to countless anything. I would not even use the descriptor “countless” to describe the total number of members in the local churches worldwide. Would you? If there are not countless members, current and former, in the local churches, then one cannot reasonably argue that there are countless current and former members coming to this forum! The countless argument fails on the math alone.

Now, if one argues that countless means any number beyond what could be counted on one’s fingers and toes then i’ll concede the point. However, countless in the context of this topic is simply an exaggeration used for underscoring one’s point. I get that but beyond that it is simply an argument from silence. I’ll yield to your “numerous” though frankly I can only recall a dozen or two at the most.

Drake

Originally Posted by Trapped

The "countless" thing is most certainly not from silence. I have read numerous posts on this forum of people who actually say they are so glad they came across this website and that it helped them. Many often just post that much and then disappear to go on and lead their normal lives out of the LC. The fact that some people exist who overcame the inertia to register and post that information means there are others experiencing the same thing who simply did not put in writing their same experience. This is an argument from fact, sorry not sorry, bro.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Drake,

As you can imagine, going through the One Pub is time consuming. I would prefer you respond to what I have written so far (as your time allows, of course) before I invest more time. I do not have so many extraneous hours in my day that I can devote to writing pages upon pages on the entire One Pub when what I've said already is sufficient. I've put time into what I've said so far. If you can respond to it and there is profit to the discussion, great. Then I can have a way to keep going to lay more out.

Trapped

Originally Posted by Drake

Well okay, aron. Maybe you really do want a point of view about some things.

Let's hit the reset button. Here's my offer.

I'll give my personal point of view and best response to your questions of inquiry about the subject of this forum.

Questions of presumption and accusation go into the bit bucket.... and I'll let you know when I detect them. Questions posed like "why are you brain-dead?" fall into that category. If you were really asking a question in sincerity but I misread your intent then you can clarify or restate the question and I'll do my best to answer it.

I'm not asking you for a sweet exchange... just a genuine one.

Fair enough?

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

Thanks for your note. There is no rush so if you have more to say then when you have time post it and we can discuss. Lay it all out.

Yet, don't imagine that DCP is overly interested in monitoring this forum..... at least, if you are basing that on what I say. My viewpoints are my own and do not represent anybody or any group. Strictly, this is the humble view of a simple duck enjoying the lovely place referred to in song as God's green garden yet with a pond. That is what I said when I came to this forum and its still true.

Drake

Originally Posted by Trapped

Regarding your statement about my development on this forum, I would have to say that sounds like something that someone who is monitoring and collecting information about posters and their trajectory on this forum would say......like DCP........For time's sake I have to stop here, but there is more I could say.

Originally Posted by awareness

I could ask the same of you?? ?? ??
I do it because I enjoy connecting with LCer's. But I know plenty that don't waste their time on any LC forums.

In fact, the sister that initially introduced me to LC forums, by linking a post on The Bereans.net, doesn't want anything to do with being on LC forums. She's moved on. She now studies cults. I wonder why??

Her husband, not a LCer, is, or was, a genius Orthodox Jew (still a genius). He too has an interest in cults. I wonder why??

Oh darn. That dreaded rerun again. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, Trapped. You aren't "out" either and if those whom you rely on helping you navigate out aren't out themselves then I think its premature to say you are out. Time will tell, of course and I wish you the best in whatever path your journey takes you.

As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument.

Originally Posted by Drake

I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that. Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized.

Originally Posted by Drake

I read your response and did not feel a compelled from the Lord to convince you or correct those erroneous conclusions. But since you asked and upon reconsideration before Him I'll take that opening as from the Lord.

Straight talk. You concluded "a1. Read and speak only Lee..."

Originally Posted by Drake

Had you said "publish only Lee" you would have been closer but still not 100% accurate. The One Publication makes it perfectly clear what Living Stream Ministry PUBLISHERS will PUBLISH. So you used material to shore up your concept by selectively picking statements to make your case. Yet, if you had fairly quoted other parts of the document you could not make the rational conclusion that you did above. In just a short time in this forum you have developed accusations based on selective reading. That takes us back to the very first point in this post. That is a pit, a quagmire that you should avoid... especially as a christian.

Originally Posted by Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??

Originally Posted by aron

Yet you did answer; you just didn't address the question. Your answer was an avoidance, a deflection of attention from the substance of the question(which only deepened my suspicions).

Of course I could have asked more politely. Of course I'm a bitter, small-hearted ex-member. But my questions are real. Avoiding the substance doesn't make the questions go away.


A forum is a place to have conversations, to make mistakes and apologize. To forgive others. To testify of the hope within us, not just the hurts. It is a lot of things. Sure, I posture plenty. But the Lord said, "If you forgive others, God will forgive you." So I try not to bear grudges, and hopefully God will have mercy on me.

But the questions remain. There are a lot of people out there with questions. A lot of people.

Originally Posted by Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron, speaking for myself I have no objection to questions that foster further understanding.... ask away.

Originally Posted by Drake

The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish. If you don't want to read Watchman Nee or Witness Lee writings don't. Read something else. Frankly, it's between you and the Lord......as is their right to publish whomever they prefer. If you want to publish something go to any number of christian publishers and maybe they will or maybe they will "get back to you". If you prefer to read books published by other publishers then go do that too.... you can have a book by almost any christian author you like, including Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, with just a few clicks on Amazon. No one will hunt you down so there is no need to feel trapped... go before the Lord and do what the Master tells you to do.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why is it that the Bible is filled with reruns too?

Originally Posted by awareness

Interloping again.

And I've bemoaned this silence repeatedly. I sure wish we had a list of all those that have left the LC. They prolly outnumber those that are presently in the LC.

I guess you're glad we don't hear from most of them.

Originally Posted by aron

Here's an example: recently we were discussing the LC saying to "get out of your mind"; I brought up some examples of questions that one might have of glaring & obvious contradictions in LC teaching & practice, if one used their critical faculties as God designed:

Here was Drake's response:

and

If we ask questions that nobody seems to have answers to, we'll keep asking until someone tries to answer. Seems fair enough to me.

Originally Posted by Drake

As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother awareness,

I appreciate the sincerity in your response.

Yet, the explanation does not align with the arc of discourse here for the reruns are not just when new ones stop in. Rather, a handful of posters reinforce a set of mantras for just about any topic.

Drake

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake, watch out here comes a "drive by"!

Not systematized? You would know better than me, I was only in the LC for a year and that notion was pushed on me twice explicitly, I don't know how many times implicitly. It was also discussed at the dinner table at length with a dozen or so "saints" in Irvine. I guess you just chalk this one up to another isolated incident... At what point are we allowed to look at these isolated incidents and come to the conclusion that there is a systematic problem?

Originally Posted by Drake

I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that.

Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized.

Originally Posted by Drake

I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that. Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized. ]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has.


Can you count the number who have been helped? If not, then, by the very nature of a public internet forum where any and many can read, it is "countless".

Originally Posted by Trapped

There is light outside the local churches and this light is being systematically demonized and kept away from many who are trapped in the LC system but fear for their literal life or safety if they leave ("Did you hear? So-and-so person who left the church a couple years ago died from a head on collision last week" [knowing look and head shake that indicates both parties agree that if that person hadn't left the church to meet with another Christian church then they would still be alive)

Originally Posted by Trapped

Drake, what do you think about the quotes I posted from One Pub and afaithfulword.org?

Thanks,
Trapped

Originally Posted by Trapped

Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has. (P.S. you are really knocking a place that you sure do frequent a lot!) I'm so glad there are people who care enough to stick around here long enough for people like me to finally float in. In fact, it's design is one of the very things that helps so much:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I agree 100%

Originally Posted by Trapped

Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has. (P.S. you are really knocking a place that you sure do frequent a lot!) I'm so glad there are people who care enough to stick around here long enough for people like me to finally float in. In fact, it's design is one of the very things that helps so much

Originally Posted by Drake

An internet chat forum by design cannot help people navigate out of an experience. That is an artifact of the nature of chat forums. Certainly it can help to know you are not alone through empathy but then something more structured is needed for someone to process out of an experience. I doubt “countless” have been helped as you claim even in an empathetic way. To claim countless are would be an argument from silence.

Originally Posted by Drake

Yet some, though having “left” the local churches and the ministry that builds them, apparently have never left mentally or emotionally. And the dialogue they have with others who share their experience has not enabled them to move on. So, the threads become “Brady Bunch reruns”, ultimately arriving at the same half dozen blaming complaints (PL, MOTA, Daystar, One Publication, Blended Brothers, etc.) for just about any topic. That appears as a classic description of group think not unlike what we observe in politics as the cause of every ill (e.g. Russians did it).

Drake

Originally Posted by aron

One reason I keep repeating questions is that I'm waiting for someone to come up with an answer. Avoid the question, and I suspect I'm on to something and keep repeating it.

These are relevant questions. Ignore them, and we'll keep asking them. Same with Daystar and Timothy Lee, with Philip Lee aka "The Office". Ignore, and we'll remind.

And if it has helped us to get clear, perhaps it will help others as well. What sort of animal they're dealing with, here; what sort of spirit is behind the facade. Maybe it isn't their fault, that they "Just couldn't make it" in the LC; maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with the environment that promised transformation but couldn't deliver.

Originally Posted by aron

One reason I keep repeating questions is that I'm waiting for someone to come up with an answer. Avoid the question, and I suspect I'm on to something and keep repeating it.

Originally Posted by aron

~How come the movement started by women (Ruth Lee & Elizabeth Fischbacher transcribed & edited WN's spoken messages into printed book form) doesn't allow women as blended co-workers, and no one notices? Because they're brain-dead is why.

~Why does no one notice that a supposed ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5) doesn't reconcile with anyone, acting as if it were merely a guanxi network? Because they're trained (conditioned) not to notice anything.

~In one place, WL taught that the psalmist crushing his enemies' skulls and dipping his feet in their blood was a "type of Christ" defeating Satan. In other parts of the same training, such sentiments got roundly panned as "natural" and "fallen concepts", and not aligning with the New Testament ministry of grace, love, forbearance, forgiveness &c. These kinds of whipsaw teachings were paraded in front of thousands, and in the testimonies no one got up & said, "Um, Mr Oracle, seems there's a discrepancy between point III(A)(1c) and point VII(C)(2b) Can you explain?"

People would sit there passively while flatly contradictory teachings were presented. Nobody said a word! Not even one question?! How could they not be brain-dead? And we could bring up one contradiction after another: failure to teach consistently, failure to line up with the precedent set by the apostles' reception of the OT. . . and nobody said anything! "Check your brain at the door" indeed. "Get out of your mind" was pre-requisite for LC membership.

~Why does LSM esteem Protestantism as part of its foundational "goodly heritage", and in the next breath calls them "daughters of the harlot", and no one seems to notice?

Originally Posted by Drake

What does that have to do with the topic of THIS thread??

Originally Posted by Drake

Those items are not relevant to this topic either aron..... just standard talking points you use in most threads....
However, calling brothers in the Lord "brain-dead" does not seem far removed from those solemnly warned in Matthew 5:22-25. Hope you are prepared for that.
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother awareness,

I appreciate the sincerity in your response.

Yet, the explanation does not align with the arc of discourse here for the reruns are not just when new ones stop in. Rather, a handful of posters reinforce a set of mantras for just about any topic.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Of course you may interlope..... always.

Whether one walked out like brother aron, or was escorted out like you brother Harold , neither of you ever left. You are physically disconnected yet emotionally and mentally bound to living in the past.... and reliving it .. and have never moved on. It is my observation that in such a state, it is difficult if not impossible to think for yourself..... and that is why the forum has become a continuous cycle of reruns like having a broadcast service that only plays reruns of the Brady Bunch. You can predict the response to any situation because you've watched the episode many times. There is no freedom or critical thinking in such a state. Even the response to this post is predictable, just watch and see.

Something Max's daughter said in another post awhile back struck me along this same train of thought..... she stated that Max himself was surprised that people were still talking about and reliving the events surrounding him and that he had moved on. It is not a healthy condition to be stuck in the past and there is no freedom or freedom of thought in it.

Drake

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

This forum is designed to help people who were trapped and have moved on. Their experiences in the the LSM both good, bad and ugly have been very beneficial to countless of people.

Originally Posted by Drake

Of course you may interlope..... always.

Whether one walked out like brother aron, or was escorted out like you brother Harold , neither of you ever left. You are physically disconnected yet emotionally and mentally bound to living in the past.... and reliving it .. and have never moved on.

Originally Posted by Drake

........... the forum has become a continuous cycle of reruns like having a broadcast service that only plays reruns of the Brady Bunch. You can predict the response to any situation because you've watched the episode many times. There is no freedom or critical thinking in such a state. Even the response to this post is predictable, just watch and see.....

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

the forum has become a continuous cycle of reruns like having a broadcast service that only plays reruns of the Brady Bunch. You can predict the response to any situation because you've watched the episode many times. There is no freedom or critical thinking in such a state. Even the response to this post is predictable, just watch and see..

Originally Posted by awareness

May I interlope?...

....So you are right bro Drake, we can get out of the LC, but it's not easy to get the LC out of us.

Hopefully we can get free enough to think for our self....

Originally Posted by Ohio

I still remember Lee looking at John Ingalls during one training message and queried him out of the blue, "has there been one single book of spiritual value since 1945?"

John had that same "huh?" on his face, yet no words would come out of his mouth.

Lee wanted an affirmation only a lackey could provide, but no honest man of God like John could say a thing.

Did Lee really expect John to have read every single Christian book published since 1945? What kind of person would even ask such a thing?

Originally Posted by aron

Actually you are right. I was there when "It's now the age of small potatoes" was spoken from the dias; I never batted an eye. The age had turned. Amen.

But still, inside me some very small voice said, "Huh?"

The trick to LC church life was keeping those small voices quiet. Push them back in the closet.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Uh ... umm ... er ... ahh ... no, not really, aron. And to think that one of my strengths in work was analysis.

Originally Posted by aron

So according to his feeling, Witness Lee said the Lord desired to turn the age from one brother ministering from the Bible, to no more spiritual giant and all the Body merely rehearsing and repeating that one man's ministry. Even the Lord Jesus as a man cited scripture: "it is written" and "scripture must be fulfilled" . . . but Witness Lee merely had a feeling and thus the age of church history must change? Even 'hubris' doesn't seem strong enough for this.

And Witness Lee's feeling wasn't affected by bias and self-interest? The man who gave us Timothy Lee and Daystar, and Philip Lee aka "The Office"? It's so obviously self-serving; even the most resolutely non-thinking and non-analytical among the flock must have had their consciences pricked by this kind of talk from ministry leaders.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

IFFFFF this is TRUE, it has not come to pass because the congregants and followers of Lee, exalt him and his works so much so they don't trust the Holy Spirit to guide them, to counsel them, to enlighten them.

Originally Posted by zeek

Lee contradicted the principle that there is a minister of every age with his blended brothers teaching. He was the last great master builder? I don't recall reading that in my Bible. What hubris!

Originally Posted by Trapped

2. Lee was the last great master builder to be succeeded by no one, and we just keep looking to whatever he produced for the vision to follow.......even though apparently through all the ages of human history God's principle (the unchanging One, by the way) of one minister per age unexpectedly changed!

Originally Posted by Ohio

These statements, made some 30 years ago, are utter nonsense. No new light or life supply? Wasting your time amd money? Saints waste their time reading? No food? Nothing new?

I call BS on all of Lee's false witness here. Since when can he make such judgments on the works of other servants of God. Matter of fact, The Harvest and The Christian papers were full of the anointing. Thousands of saints could testify of this. The anointing Spirit of God blessed those two papers, and others too which were widely circulated at the time.

Since when does the novelty of "something new" become the standard by which Lee or LSM can shut down other ministries? Isn't the demand for "something new" a false standard? Why do other ministries need something new? Paul preached boring old "Christ crucified," and that was pleasing to God, and anointed by His Spirit. Isn't the leading of the Spirit more than adequate to publish? Does not God endorse His leading with the anointing and blessing from above?

It seems that Lee's addiction for "something new" has caused endless problems. Is not that what led to his errant teachings about "becoming God?" Do not itchy ears long for what is "new" rather than what God has anointed? Has not his rash decision to end the ministries of other brothers, with the demands of One Publication, usurped the operation of the Head of the body?

Originally Posted by Trapped

There are not many other conclusions to draw except:
1. Read and speak only Lee because apparently "All those who do not build, speak, or serve according to the blueprint released by the Lord through that man [Lee] are void of light and revelation" (from a faithfulword.org, WOW what a claim!!), and

2. Lee was the last great master builder to be succeeded by no one, and we just keep looking to whatever he produced for the vision to follow.......even though apparently through all the ages of human history God's principle (the unchanging One, by the way) of one minister per age unexpectedly changed!

Originally Posted by Trapped

From the One Pub (underlining added):

"It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there.......By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us?"

"Some brothers among us continually put out some publications. I was honest to tell them that there was no light and nothing new in what they put out."

Originally Posted by Drake

Now, the real matter of fact is that the “One Publication “ does not say what you say it does. You reference the document but fail to represent the content accurately. That is a minor infraction in the grand scheme of things and forgivable ....

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Aron,

You walked out that door...

.... but you never left.

Drake

Originally Posted by aron

Thank God for the day that I walked out that door. . ..

Originally Posted by UntoHim

As a matter of fact, no person or persons in the Local Church has the right, privilege or authority to add or take away from the sacred words of brother LǐChángshòu - they are to be forever memorialized and canonized within the strict bounds given and heavily guarded by a California corporation - The Living Stream Ministry. So if the Holy Spirit is going to speak (and he better be reading from a Life Study when he does!) he will have to do so among the officially sanctioned pages coming forth from 2431 W. La Palma Ave. Anaheim California.
-

Originally Posted by Drake

and today he still uses imperfect expositors to expound His written Word and consequently enable the Holy Spirit to speak to us.

Originally Posted by Drake

...in documenting the God-breathed Word of God, God used imperfect human instruments as inspired channels to record His thought, then used imperfect scribes over the centuries from different schools to copy manuscripts, then He raised up imperfect ministers to recover the divine truths over the last few centuries, and today he still uses imperfect expositors to expound His written Word and consequently enable the Holy Spirit to speak to us.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Consider the tools they had to force compliance:...

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Notice how 2-5 are divisive and thoroughly condemned by the NT yet were practiced by LSM.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Definitely deteriorated over time. Initially many elders were true shepherds who put their church first, only to be targeted and coerced by headquarters as not sufficiently "one with the ministry." All sorts of tactics were used to force compliance or be expelled.

Originally Posted by Angelica

I do see some Chinese culture in all of Nee's work. However, I really appreciate his earlier ministry.

Originally Posted by Angelica

What Mahoney said was that 1. God, 2. Christ, 3.the Holy Spirit and 4. the Word of God were all levels of authority that had to be obeyed absolutely.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Definitely deteriorated over time. Initially many elders were true shepherds who put their church first, only to be targeted and coerced by headquarters as not sufficiently "one with the ministry." All sorts of tactics were used to force compliance or be expelled.

Originally Posted by awareness

To the victor go the spoils. The winners write the history. That sort of thing.

Christianity started out Jewish. But that didn't last long. Paul soon came along, and the rest is history. There was an massive influx of gentiles converting to Christianity. By virtue of population the gentiles won out, and the Jewish Christians (James - Ebionites - Nazarenes) lost.

So I find it kinda funny that we gentiles are critiquing James. A little Chinese man putting down James. Now that's funny. The brother of Jesus no less. They grew up together. Ya can't get any closer to Jesus than that. He had to know him better than any of his followers, then and now. No wonder he thought he went loony ; 'my brother said what!?!'

James stayed a good Jew. Like his brother Jesus ; that followed God's law like no one else.

You don't like it? Take it up with Jesus.

A little Chinese man putting down James ...

Originally Posted by Drake

Now, granted these footnotes in Psalms are not extensive as you would find Brother Lee wrote in Ephesians, Hebrews, Matthew, Revelation, Romans, because frankly, there is much more concerning the dispensation we now live in those NT books than in the Psalms.

Originally Posted by Drake

What I said was:

"The Bible is chocked full of people expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure, sin, sins, evil, calling out deceptions and erroneous teachings."

and that is not the same as...

"The Bible is chocked full of errors."

.. nor do I believe that the Bible is deficient. Both you wrongly ascribed to me. I believe neither.

Of course, if I did believe those then that would make your conversation much easier....but since I don't you'll have to form an argument around what I actually said. It's better that anyway, don't you agree?

Thx
Drake

Originally Posted by aron

Nowhere does the NT treat the OT the way WL did. But he did so anyway. .

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The bottom line is lets' not be arrogant about our own interpretation while condemning the arrogance of others.

Originally Posted by aron

You said that.

Originally Posted by Drake

The broader point you miss, aron, is that in documenting the God-breathed Word of God, God used imperfect human instruments as inspired channels to record His thought, then used imperfect scribes over the centuries from different schools to copy manuscripts, then He raised up imperfect ministers to recover the divine truths over the last few centuries, and today he still uses imperfect expositors to expound His written Word and consequently enable the Holy Spirit to speak to us.

So I find it ironic, brother, that you would convince us and yourself that your viewpoint is of the Word while others viewpoints who disagree with your viewpoint are simply of an expositor. You make it sound as if the Bible was handed to us down out of the sky or with a booming voice from the heavens and that now you are choosing THAT Bible verses someone's interpretation of the Bible we all own.

Doesn't work like that. Even those who claim to own the pure Word are using that to mask the fact that they are just holding onto their own opinion and interpretation of God's Word.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Who said that?


Drake

Originally Posted by aron

Nowhere does the NT treat the OT the way WL did. But he did so anyway. I point out the peril - so sue me. And even though there's clearly tension between the nascent wings of the Christian movement in the NT, it doesn't mean we should declare one the 'victor' and write off the other testimony as erroneous. Satan loves it when we dismiss the testimony of the book. He loves it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

So now you differentiate between the word of God and all scripture which is God-breathed?

Slippery slope indeed.

Originally Posted by Drake

Doesn't work like that. Even those who claim to own the pure Word are using that to mask the fact that they are just holding onto their own opinion and interpretation of God's Word.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

First, the definition for "words" in Psalm 12:6 is not that used for "scripture" (i.e. the record..). So, it is a bit careless on your part to translate it that way and but I understand your mindset so we'll leave it there.

Originally Posted by Drake

Who said that?


Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

The Bible is chocked full of people expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure, sin, sins, evil, calling out deceptions and erroneous teachings.

Originally Posted by awareness

A little Chinese man putting down James ..

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Since this is the case I don't agree with the claim that the Bible is "chock full" of errors.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This thread seems to have gone off track, becoming a debate over whether or not WL's teaching that certain books lacked the divine revelation is a valid teaching.

I think if we can all agree that WL did not have the authority to determine which books were and were not part of the divine revelation then we can all move forward with the thread.

Drake feels that some of these books were given to us as examples of the kind of errors that can be made. He believes that every scripture is God breathed but that does not preclude recording human ideas and opinions. Certainly we all have to agree that the book of Job records human ideas and opinions, and we have to agree that this is a view held widely, perhaps even by a majority of believers.

As long as we all agree that WL didn't have the authority to declare this book is God's word and that book isn't, how does any further debate apply to this thread?.

Originally Posted by aron

Why do Paul and Ananias get a pass?

Originally Posted by aron

Psalm 12:6 (NIV) And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I find the term "chock-full" to be far too vague.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

For all the errors we can claim WL had, "ignoring scripture" in his teaching is not one of them. He did a verse by verse exegesis of the entire Bible.

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron, perhaps the task of writing footnotes for the Psalms falls to someone the Lord inspires. Is that you? Exactly, how many footnotes have you written on the Psalms? As many as Brother Lee wrote? I’m not trying to embarrass you... but instead of criticizing Brother Lee for not writing more footnotes to Psalms than he did... then why don’t you do it instead of sitting on a quasi Internet Bema and passing judgment? What if you are held to the same standard as you hold Brother Lee to on number of footnotes written at the judgement that matters most....will you pass that exam?

Originally Posted by Drake

But, you still have not shown us where the Bible states about itself what you think it should say. Where?

Drake

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Z,

I agree with many of your sentiments, I would challenge the depth of impact his MOTA philosophy has on the ministry to this day. Every individual has theological errors, Witness Lee should never be criticized just for having false beliefs...

How would you describe Lee and his ministry?

Not in an attempt to lead your answer, but as a way to clarify my question:
Do you think Lee was a Godly man with a strong ministry that got a few things wrong? Pick the bones out of the chicken?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I find the term "chock-full" to be far too vague. I would agree that "the ground of the church" doctrine has errors. I would also agree that the MOTA teaching has errors. However, the MOTA doctrine is incredibly sparse in WL's ministry. I say "incredibly" because I heard it very often in Houston, in Irving and on this forum, yet in his written ministry it is a very minor reference. Finally, WL taught that some books lacked the "divine revelation". Books that he focused this criticism on were Job, Psalms, Proverbs, and James. I find that teaching to be personally offensive, but not uncommon among other Bible teachers. Therefore it is arrogant of me to assume that I only have the truth any more than it was for WL. I would find it more helpful if we actually had a list of errors that were commonly accepted on this forum. I am not familiar with any other errors in his teaching that are commonly accepted on this forum.

Originally Posted by aron

1. Witness Lee's teaching is chock-full of errors, as this website makes amply plain. We should keep this in mind as we examine his critiques of James, and others.

Originally Posted by aron

2. The Bible makes plain what is revelatory and what is error. No need of a special apostolic decoder ring.

Originally Posted by aron

3. I never said "all equal". I'm saying that some teachers like WL dismiss scripture like James & Psalms on the flimsiest of pretexts. The scripture itself doesn't make these judgments, yet WL boldly does so. Shouldn't we be good 'bereans' and challenge whether this is so, and if so, on what merits?

Originally Posted by aron

To ignore scripture is peril. Leaf through your RecV, sometime. Page after page of Psalms with nary a note, even a cross-reference, even when dozens lie waiting to be found. Then ask yourself which has more value to you- the Bible or the ministry of its exposition? And, what basis do you have that the writers and speakers of the NT, starting with Jesus, held such a view? I see no evidence for it in the NT, rather the opposite. Yet the exposition of WL imposes it on the text.

Originally Posted by aron

And Ananias, being equally zealous for the law, and attested to by the law-keeping Jews, wasn't also in error? Why did Paul cite this status approvingly before his accusers? Was Paul also carried away a la Galatians chapter 2?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Drake

The Bible is chocked full of people expressing wrong ideas, misguided thinking, human issues, mistakes, failure, sin, sins, evil, calling out deceptions and erroneous teachings....

Originally Posted by aron

To ignore scripture is peril. Leaf through your RecV, sometime. Page after page of Psalms with nary a note, even a cross-reference, even when dozens lie waiting to be found. Then ask yourself which has more merit to you- the Bible or the ministry of its exposition? And, what basis do you have that the writers and speakers of the NT, starting with Jesus, held such a view? I see no evidence for it in the NT, rather the opposite. Yet the exposition of WL imposes it on the text.

Originally Posted by Drake

The Bible is chock full of people expressing wrong ideas. . .On what scriptural basis do you assert that the Bible only reveals and expresses divine truth, all equal, and all to be followed and adhered to with the same weight? Where does the Bible make the claims you make about it?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

...there is no doubt, having read Acts and Galatians, that James was in error, but being happy that there are thousands zealous for the law is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Originally Posted by aron

I get your argument about the Bible, but the Bible doesn't make that argument about itself as a corpus, that it is incorrect in some teachings. Lee did, you do, but not the Bible about itself.

What happens with this line of thought is that one has to arbitrarily abandon it at some point, or else Paul, Ananias, Peter and John get censured for being void of revelation also. So one makes the argument selectively, and hopes no one notices when it tails off.

Originally Posted by aron

perhaps you are selectively following Witness Lee's thoughts.

James was wrong to hold forth on the "thousands who were zealous for the law" in Jerusalem? Why the double standard? Why do Paul and Ananias get a pass?

Originally Posted by Drake

But I think you have an erroneous idea about the Bible. You seem to think everything in it is to be regarded as positive. Every author is articulating what is right. Rather, I look at it differently, I think every word of the Bible is God-breathed... for our correction, reproof, etc. and that would necessarily include things that are incorrect as a contrast.. So my Bible does not shrink at all and is the same size as yours... I presume yours to also have 66 books end to end.

Originally Posted by Drake

okay... but do you agree with afazio that James/Jerusalem caused problems in the infant church? You seem to arguing against that notion... and you seem to be saying the James had a one on one with the Lord and because of that he could not possibly be devoid of matters related to the New Testament.... I think that is what you are alluding to.

Originally Posted by Drake

UntoHim,

Rather than a public exhibition of chest thumping ...

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think I have been every bit as strong and favorable to Jame's ministry as anyone on this forum, but I don't see where Afazio "throws him under the bus".

The reality is that Peter had a major failing, Paul had a major failing and James also had a major failing. Each failing became critical to their respective ministry.

Paul saw the Body of Christ as a result, Peter opened the door of the kingdom to both Jews and Gentiles as a result, and James saw how to deal with the danger of a false prophet.

Originally Posted by aron

Paul tells us, in his treatise on resurrection in 1 Cor 15, that James met the Lord. This is more than we can say for Witness Lee, or you or I for that matter. Why so eager to drum a witness off the page? And what of those naive ones who included James in the canon? Or was it merely, as WL said, to show us how not to think? If you start parsing the Bible thus, at some point you have to look away, or you end up with a rather small Bible. Then, the only assurance you have, is that you know more than anyone else, including the witnesses of the Bible, and those who assembled it together. Some hope, that.

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Was the WL elder system a control system and scam from the beginning or did it just evolve that way over time?

The hierarchical control system of the scribes and pharisees was not intended to be imitated but avoided.

Originally Posted by Drake

perhaps I am not following your chain of thought.

Originally Posted by Drake

Rather than a public exhibition of chest thumping... explain how James was enlightened concerning the main items in New Testament.

Originally Posted by aron

So we wink and nod benignly, or remonstrate against hypocrisy and failure, depending on its suitability to our current arguments.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5636

I wrote 63 pages on this and posted it as a Pdf. You can find it at this thread.

Originally Posted by Drake

That the Lord would send Ananias, a devout man according to law, to baptize Saul demonstrates His loving kindness toward us. It was actually this very act that opened Paul's eyes to see the reality of the Body of Christ that he wrote so much about about later.

Originally Posted by Drake

UntoHim,


Rather than a public exhibition of chest thumping... explain how James was enlightened concerning the main items in New Testament.
Thx,
Drake

Originally Posted by aron

What!? Paul!? Baptised by a devout man according to the law!? What happened to God's economy, Paul? What happened to faith alone?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Drake, do you think we're all stupid here? Witness Lee said NO SUCH THING. HE SAID JAMES WAS DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION. PERIOD. Any qualifications put on such a heretical statement are meaningless and worthless. Kind of like when you say you are "becoming God in life and nature....but not in the Godhead".

Here's another outrageous, ignorant statement by Lee:
"The book of James is devoid of the main items in the New Testament."
Again, Lee just couldn't help himself. He exposed his utter ignorance and disrespect for the Word of God. How could the the book of James be "devoid of the main items in the New Testament" WHEN IT IS PART OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. This is part of the reason that many former members, and even some keen observers of the Local Church of Witness Lee claim that LC members think of Lee's teachings as equal to or EVEN ABOVE the Word of God. It's sick. It's pathetic. It's dangerous. It's sad. May God have mercy.
-

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Afazio is NOT a speech disorder Harold! You obviously have no Awareness of the meaning of Afazio. If she feels like explaining, she will. It's not my place to do so.

Originally Posted by awareness

The irony is that afazio is a speech disorder, that isn't displayed in her posts.

But thanks afazio, for putting into words what my spirit felt when I got the boot - for objecting to Lee being God's authority on the earth.

I do wish that you would join up.

Originally Posted by Drake

If afazios booklet is that good then post it here. Let's have a look.

Now back to James.... this forum rents it's clothes and throws dust in the air because Brother Lee finds little or no revelation concerning God's economy in the book of James. Afazio throws James under the bus citing him as the responsible source for every bad thing that happened in the infant church and this same forum cheers and applauds her for incredible insight and clarity of mind.

Originally Posted by Drake

The difference? Afazio wrote a little booklet speaking against Brother Lee. For that the forum awards her a lifetime platinum membership.

Originally Posted by Drake

Looky here.....The Jerusalem principle is not about James. It's about how the Lord used a different model for evangelizing the Jews around Israel than the one He deployed to evangelize Gentiles far and wide. A careful reading of Acts with an open mind will show just that.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

..Brother Lee finds little or no revelation concerning God's economy in the book of James.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

afazio was bold enough and wise enough to produce a little booklet speaking against Witness Lee and his follower's claims that he was the ONE APOSTLE ON EARTH and GOD'S DEPUTY AUTHORITY ON EARTH. Many were enlightened and helped by this little booklet. I think it would probably do you some good to pray-read it when you get a chance!
-

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Drake I'm sure that afazio is quite aware that Witness Lee taught that one of the writers of the Divine Revelation was "DEVOID OF THE DIVINE REVELATION". (This outrageous statement should have got him removed from teaching vacation bible school, much, much less being the sole teacher of an entire Christian movement) afazio is probably also aware that you believe that Witness Lee was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth while he was alive. afazio was bold enough and wise enough to produce a little booklet speaking against Witness Lee and his follower's claims that he was the ONE APOSTLE ON EARTH and GOD'S DEPUTY AUTHORITY ON EARTH. Many were enlightened and helped by this little booklet. I think it would probably do you some good to pray-read it when you get a chance!
-

Originally Posted by afazio

It is so obvious in Scripture how Jerusalem "muddied the waters" in the churches by their overarching, almost "weird" as well as "traditional Jewish" take on everything. What is it that the Gentiles must "refrain from MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS" and "from things strangled"? What is it that "some came from James" to the churches in Galatia to confuse things so much that Paul had to confront Peter to his face to NOT go along with those who "came from James" (the head elder of the Jerusalem church----and, of course, Jesus' brother), and that Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, had to take such incredible pains to distance himself from those supposed "pillars" in the Jerusalem church ("whatsoever they were makes no difference to me; God is the respecter of no man's person"), and also take pains to delineate how little time he had spent with those brothers OR in the church in Jerusalem. And then, what about James' greeting to Paul, where the saints in Jerusalem eagerly boasted to Paul that: "
And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20-21).

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Was the WL elder system a control system and scam from the beginning or did it just evolve that way over time?

Originally Posted by awareness

The irony is that afazio is a speech disorder, that isn't displayed in her posts.
....

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

To what degree do the elders in a city have biblical spiritual authority in the word of God to rule over the believers in the city or the church?

Originally Posted by afazio

Thanks, Steve! This is a very valuable labor of love on your part. It IS helpful!

That is sort of like me, as a grandmother, exercising "authority" over my grandchildren. I DO, generally, exercise authority over my grandchildren. However, I can only do that under the auspices of my children. I have one son with whom my authority is pretty much unquestioned. I have another son where my authority over his children is much more limited

Originally Posted by afazio

What is it that the Gentiles must "refrain from MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS"

Originally Posted by afazio

and "from things strangled"?

Originally Posted by afazio

What is it that "some came from James" to the churches in Galatia to confuse things so much that Paul had to confront Peter to his face to NOT go along with those who "came from James" (the head elder of the Jerusalem church----and, of course, Jesus' brother),

Originally Posted by afazio

and that Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, had to take such incredible pains to distance himself from those supposed "pillars" in the Jerusalem church ("whatsoever they were makes no difference to me; God is the respecter of no man's person"),

Originally Posted by afazio

and also take pains to delineate how little time he had spent with those brothers OR in the church in Jerusalem.

Originally Posted by afazio

And then, what about James' greeting to Paul, where the saints in Jerusalem eagerly boasted to Paul that: "
And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20-21).

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Be sure to include your desired UserName (afazio will work just fine)
-

Originally Posted by afazio

I did not previously know about Nee's change in emphasis in 1948. Wow! How could he have been SOOO deceived? It is so obvious in Scripture how Jerusalem "muddied the waters" in the churches by their overarching, almost "weird" as well as "traditional Jewish" take on everything.