Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have to admit that I am astonished at Evangelical's claim that some Baptists don't do their own visitation but, instead, hire it out. I have been a member of the Baptist church all my life and I can ASSURE you that they do, indeed, do their own visitation both to follow up on visitors who came to one of their services and to minister to those who have not attended in a while or who are needing prayer/help. Rarely do you ever get to just "fade away" from a Baptist church--they come and visit to make sure all is well if they have not seen you for a while. Never once, in my entire long life, have I ever heard of any Baptist church hiring out their visitation! The LC may need to pay multiple "job-dropping full-timers" to get the job done but most Baptist churches have several dedicated and devout members who eagerly do visitation on Tuesday or Thursday nights. They will, indeed, "leave the 90 and 9" and go looking for that one lost sheep. People matter to them.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have to admit that I am astonished at Evangelical's claim that some Baptists don't do their own visitation but, instead, hire it out. I have been a member of the Baptist church all my life and I can ASSURE you that they do, indeed, do their own visitation both to follow up on visitors who came to one of their services and to minister to those who have not attended in a while or who are needing prayer/help. Rarely do you ever get to just "fade away" from a Baptist church--they come and visit to make sure all is well if they have not seen you for a while. Never once, in my entire long life, have I ever heard of any Baptist church hiring out their visitation! The LC may need to pay multiple "job-dropping full-timers" to get the job done but most Baptist churches have several dedicated and devout members who eagerly do visitation on Tuesday or Thursday nights. They will, indeed, "leave the 90 and 9" and go looking for that one lost sheep. People matter to them.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have to admit that I am astonished at Evangelical's claim that some Baptists don't do their own visitation but, instead, hire it out. I have been a member of the Baptist church all my life and I can ASSURE you that they do, indeed, do their own visitation both to follow up on visitors who came to one of their services and to minister to those who have not attended in a while or who are needing prayer/help. Rarely do you ever get to just "fade away" from a Baptist church--they come and visit to make sure all is well if they have not seen you for a while. Never once, in my entire long life, have I ever heard of any Baptist church hiring out their visitation! The LC may need to pay multiple "job-dropping full-timers" to get the job done but most Baptist churches have several dedicated and devout members who eagerly do visitation on Tuesday or Thursday nights. They will, indeed, "leave the 90 and 9" and go looking for that one lost sheep. People matter to them.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Of course Baptists don't go door-knocking (actually they can, I used to do it for a baptist church, they didn't do it themselves they hired us to do it I wasn't even a member) - these days they preach the gospel using puppetry, clowning, hip-gyrations in spandex and magic.

Originally Posted by HERn

There are scores of Baptist flavors, but I don't think any take the Mormon and LSM route of 2 year trainings where they ride bikes in white shirts and ties and knock on doors. The Local Church is quickly becoming a cult in that they insist on using the writings of WL to interpret the NT. Once the old guard like RK, DT, EM dies off the next generation of WL acolytes with no history or connection with the genuine church will lead the local church movement into worship of the person of WL. It's already happening in China.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Or Baptist missionaries?

Originally Posted by aron

Does the Baptist church have the same rigid, hyper-centralised command-and-control structures as the LDS and the LSM? I do see similarities: all these groups have mandates to go forth & tell the great unwashed masses about the Bible and Jesus Christ. But in the case of the LDS and LSM, the Bible and Jesus, aka "the gospel message", are merely foils, introductory to the special revelation of God's special anointed prophet raised up in these last days, and the cloistered group that follows the teachings of said prophet without question.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Or Baptist missionaries?

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

William Franklin Graham, Jr. (November 7, 1918 – February 21, 2018), better known as Billy Graham, was an American Evangelical Christian minister and evangelist. He was a member of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Originally Posted by aron

Just like young Mormon missionaries, who after 2 years of serving LDS Church "end and purposes", get to return home, get jobs and have families. Talk about fallen Christianity. . . . if you only knew!

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"ends and purposes" - such as? ... gospel outreach and bible distribution...that's the main thing that people do after the training..and for young people.. get married, get a job, buy a house etc.

Originally Posted by BeardedFool

Be very careful. The local church trainings are focused on control of the will: your will controlled by the church (ie. the leaders of the church). Their control is couched in religious terms and they manipulate your feelings to get this control, but ultimately it has nothing to do with your actual relationship with God. Your noble desire to grow closer to God and be useful to Him is warped and twisted by the local church to serve their ends and purposes. The tree is made known by its fruit, and the fruit of the local church is rotten.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, have you ever asked yourself why so many former members would appear "embittered" about their experience in the LC's? What have they to gain by making things up? People leave churches all the time; they just move on. Why then do you accuse them of a "heart of revenge" for speaking up?

Originally Posted by Drake

Bearded Fool,

I'LL add a 3rd to your list of possibilities. .... in fact, I recommend you put it at the top.

#1 You are embittered so you are making stuff up and given to exaggeration ... possessing a heart of revenge that justifies slandering other christians.

Originally Posted by BeardedFool

Drake, your sarcasm makes light of a very serious issue. There are only 2 possibilities that I see:
1. You don't know what you are talking about.
2. You are still drinking the cool-aid.

Yes, you should be very afraid, in all seriousness. And as to how I escaped, it was through a great deal of pain and suffering, broken relationships, and true damage.

Millstones and goats.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think there were around 100 in my graduating class. I am only aware of one other person that either graduated with me or within a year that left the faith.

Honestly I had a great time in the FTTA. I felt full of purpose and really enjoyed the environment and the people I was around. I was gung-ho and all-in. There were some hard times and personal sacrifices that I regret in hindsight. However at the time it really felt like God's plan for me and that I was "one with Him in His economy." It's really only in retrospect that I see the whole experience as whacky to understate the matter. So yes, I enjoyed the FTTA.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Thanks Unreg - about how many people were in your FTTA class? Of those, are there more that have left the faith? I've visited headquarters in Anaheim, its a pretty wild place... I would appreciate hearing more about your FTTA experience.

On a separate note, if you have any interest in hearing about my testimony and experience with Jesus, shoot me a message.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I consider myself a success. Went through the FTTA, eventually got a good job, and am now an agnostic and no longer bother with this nonsense. Life is much better now

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think you are overstating the importance of the "two year gap". Sensationalizing it as well by your use of the term "inexplicable".
A two year gap is not inexplicable if you explain it properly. It is always explicable to say exactly what you were doing to a potential employer. I don't think many would care about a 2 year gap. Experience and skills is the main thing.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A two year gap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, many young people waste that time or the equivalent of it by going to night clubs and travelling to strange places.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Do you have any bible support that a career is more important than God's work?

Originally Posted by LaLaLaLaLa

Meanwhile in the LC you get constantly bombarded with guilt/shaming tactics all through high school, college and the FTT and as a result are incapable of fostering a healthy relationship with someone of the opposite sex.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think you are overstating the importance of the "two year gap". Sensationalizing it as well by your use of the term "inexplicable".
A two year gap is not inexplicable if you explain it properly. It is always explicable to say exactly what you were doing to a potential employer. I don't think many would care about a 2 year gap. Experience and skills is the main thing.

A two year gap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, many young people waste that time or the equivalent of it by going to night clubs and travelling to strange places.

To imply as you are that 2 years is ruining someone's career prospects for life is ridiculous.

Do you have any bible support that a career is more important than God's work?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I consider myself a success. Went through the FTTA, eventually got a good job, and am now an agnostic and no longer bother with this nonsense. Life is much better now

Originally Posted by kumbaya

WOW!!! Are you serious? I would say I'm sorry but I can't help but to think you probably dodged a bullet....

It seems like they're in no position to turn people down. Do you know how often they do that?

Maybe if they sense you can think for yourself, you're obviously not going to be a good fit.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Having a "Bible qualification" does not automatically translate into real world job skills. Most people realize this. That is why outside the LCM, people do not attend a seminary or Bible school just because. They do it with a purpose in mind, such as if they intend to become a pastor. Also, the decision is in lieu of pursuing a traditional career. Interestingly, the LCM seems to frown upon those who decide to take a career path seriously. It's almost as if they are suggesting that anyone who doesn't attend the FTT has their priorities messed up, when in reality it should be the other way around.

I'm not out to bash those who have attended the FTT. I wish all the best for them. What I'm saying is that if they were pressured into attending or attended in an indecisive manner, then generally speaking, they will have their work cut out for them after graduating.

One of my friends who attended the FTT has called me a few times over the past few years probing for career advice. I have been hesitant to offer him anything specific because his problem was exactly what I mentioned in my post - a two year inexplicable resume 'gap'. I can't do anything for him to make that go away. By contrast, I know a few trainees who graduated and had jobs waiting for them - at their family businesses. Some have it a lot easier, they knew a job would be waiting for them going in. Not all have to worry about what happens after the training, but it still should be a concern for the majority of the trainees.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

Originally Posted by Terry

Going a little bit off topic...Having gone through the constant warnings in my LC upbringing, I certainly did not want my children going through it. Especially for ones who are obedient to the warnings you end up being dysfunctional in relating to the opposite sex as people. I didn't want my children subjected to those feelings.

Originally Posted by LaLaLaLaLa

But what can you expect when from the age of 11 you are constantly warned about the opposite sex at every single camp/conference/training.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Having a "Bible qualification" does not automatically translate into real world job skills. Most people realize this. That is why outside the LCM, people do not attend a seminary or Bible school just because. They do it with a purpose in mind, such as if they intend to become a pastor. Also, the decision is in lieu of pursuing a traditional career. Interestingly, the LCM seems to frown upon those who decide to take a career path seriously. It's almost as if they are suggesting that anyone who doesn't attend the FTT has their priorities messed up, when in reality it should be the other way around.

I'm not out to bash those who have attended the FTT. I wish all the best for them. What I'm saying is that if they were pressured into attending or attended in an indecisive manner, then generally speaking, they will have their work cut out for them after graduating.

One of my friends who attended the FTT has called me a few times over the past few years probing for career advice. I have been hesitant to offer him anything specific because his problem was exactly what I mentioned in my post - a two year inexplicable resume 'gap'. I can't do anything for him to make that go away. By contrast, I know a few trainees who graduated and had jobs waiting for them - at their family businesses. Some have it a lot easier, they knew a job would be waiting for them going in. Not all have to worry about what happens after the training, but it still should be a concern for the majority of the trainees.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

K,

I wasn’t thinking of that when asking my question.

This site spends alot of time discussing the negative aspects of the Witness Lee churches - as it should, it is our duty to warn others. But there are true Christians in these Churches, so I was wondering if anyone could share success stories. We could also include Full Timers on that list that are working as servants of Christ and not the LSM.

Originally Posted by Bradley

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I dont believe that. You put the 2 year 'gap' on your resume and treat it like any other bible qualification. You also highlight the transferable skills gained at the training. Many young people have gaps nowadays from going travelling and exploring the world anyway.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Attending the FTT requires an extraordinary level of commitment, particularly having to set aside two full years of one's life. I’ve known quite a few who have attended, and I always thought it was a bit sad when they were pressured to make that kind of commitment, not realizing the consequences of what it entailed.

Putting a career on hiatus for two years after graduating college is not something most people would consider to be advisable. And there’s no reason why people should be expected or pressured to have to make such a decision. But those doing the pressuring don’t care about the consequences of attending the FTT, they just care about getting people into the training.

I know FTT graduates who have good degrees, and they had trouble finding good work due to the inexplicable ‘gap’ in their resume. Some of them knew they wouldn’t be able to find work so they resorted to “serving full-time” for a while in attempt to postpone the inevitable. Others graduated and couldn’t decide on any meaningful direction for their life.

Originally Posted by Bradley

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Are you implying that ending up as a full-timer isn't a success story?

Originally Posted by Bradley

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

Originally Posted by Freedom

Attending the FTT requires an extraordinary level of commitment, particularly having to set aside two full years of one's life. I’ve known quite a few who have attended, and I always thought it was a bit sad when they were pressured to make that kind of commitment, not realizing the consequences of what it entailed.

Putting a career on hiatus for two years after graduating college is not something most people would consider to be advisable. And there’s no reason why people should be expected or pressured to have to make such a decision. But those doing the pressuring don’t care about the consequences of attending the FTT, they just care about getting people into the training.

I know FTT graduates who have good degrees, and they had trouble finding good work due to the inexplicable ‘gap’ in their resume. Some of them knew they wouldn’t be able to find work so they resorted to “serving full-time” for a while in attempt to postpone the inevitable. Others graduated and couldn’t decide on any meaningful direction for their life.

Originally Posted by Bradley

As for job prospects? After I graduated I spent a few years on the unemployment benefit, unable to get work. I went to China to teach English because I couldn't get a job in New Zealand. Now that I'm back in NZ I'm starting my own business to make money because I still can't get a job, being in my 30s and having only waitering and English-teaching as work experience. Doing two years of NZTC can't take the full blame for that but it certainly didn't help. Its basically just a huge gap on my CV.

Originally Posted by Curiosity

I have heard that after college, you are expected to go to a two-year training in Anaheim. You attend church classes all day, every day I believe.

Are there any testimonies on how this training went? Benefits? Consequences?

Do you feel it put you behind in life while everyone else was getting jobs after college?

What was the experience like?

Originally Posted by Igzy

The "training" model was something Nee invented and Lee perfected. It's an expression of their domineering natures in the context of backwards mainland China 70 years ago. It's an archaic, extremely flawed model, which produces short-term compliance and long-term stupidity.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I remember well when they attacked seminaries, stating that they would never have such institutions. Well, of course they don't! They have TRAININGS. A seminary by any other name is still....a seminary.

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the bi-annual trainings, all the parents and elders of these trainees were constantly reminded of the pitiful job they had done to date, and how much remediation work was needed to be accomplished by LSM / FTTA.

Originally Posted by Freedom

The primary thing that made me not want to attend the training was the realization that it bears no resemblance to how normal people live and interact in the real world. The training rules are a primary example of that. By the time someone graduates from college, they should now how to keep a schedule, dress for work and be a responsible individual. It's almost insulting that they give young people the idea that without attending the training they won't be able to function as a normal human being in life.

Originally Posted by Igzy

The "training" model was something Nee invented and Lee perfected. It's an expression of their domineering natures in the context of backwards mainland China 70 years ago. It's an archaic, extremely flawed model, which produces short-term compliance and long-term stupidity.

Originally Posted by Freedom

When looking at the training from the outside, I think you would be hard pressed to find an example besides the training where people are willing to surrender so much of their freedom. Simply put, it's abnormal. Just thinking about it gets me upset. I'm so happy I saw past it all and decided not to attend.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The brainwashing that occurs there has to be hard to reverse.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have lost friends who came out as totally different people (I was no longer "good" enough). Seems like a good experience (or so they say) for most, but all will admit that it was hard, and if you read the rules, you can understand why. They are completely ridiculous (my opinion). Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by Curiosity

I have heard that after college, you are expected to go to a two-year training in Anaheim. You attend church classes all day, every day I believe.

Are there any testimonies on how this training went? Benefits? Consequences?

Do you feel it put you behind in life while everyone else was getting jobs after college?

What was the experience like?