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| The Local Church in the 21st Century Observations and Discussions regarding the Local Church Movement in the Here and Now |
Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 10-01-2020 08:16 AM | ||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Quote:
The message I get from the New Testament is we died and now our life is hidden in Him. However, He has left us with the flesh, which is corrupted. Therefore we really just have one nature - our new nature in Him. The flesh does its best to act like us and tell us that we are fallen, sinful, can/should do things independent from God, etc. But that's not who we are. Romans 8 tells us, "But you are not in flesh but in spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." "And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead, because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." So to say we are sinners is not accurate. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." "As many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death." "So you are no longer debtors to live according to the flesh to obey the lusts of it." The sinner has died, yet the regenerated person can still sin . . . but that's not who they are. Therefore, the battle is in our soul. The devil injects thoughts into our mind and the flesh responds and promotes feelings in us. We can then choose which we will focus on - Christ in us, our only hope of glory; or focus on that which is actually dead and is passing away. |
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| 09-30-2020 08:45 PM | ||||
| Curious |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Quote:
1 John 1:5 ‘This is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you. God is light and in him there is no darkness at all’. God can’t ‘mingle’ with that which has darkness in it. So taking mingling out takes out the idea that the Holy Spirit must dwell in us in a corrupted state if our spirit is fallen too. At salvation, God comes and lives within us by His Spirit. I would never argue that point. But He exists within us to replace our sin nature, bit by bit, as we grow through struggles and trials and inner conflicts, towards maturity, humility and wisdom, growing in faith and obedience to Him and increasing in the qualities of 1 Corinthians 13. We become more like Him and that is the goal. He transforms us slowly, into his likeness. This can cause inner conflict between our conscience and our self-will. His spirit in us is in conflict, not harmony, with our sin nature. On God’s part, He comes in and dwells in us because of grace, and because of His commitment to us, and his nature which is faithful. Because He made a covenant with mankind to do so, to be our ‘helper’. (Holy Spirit described as our helpmeet somewhere in the NT). So, He does live in our corrupted humanity, even as we are subject to the fall, but He does not mingle Himself with our fallen human nature. He provides the inner unction that helps us grow towards holiness and away from the control of our fallen nature, and it’s the only way we can overcome the demands of our fallen self. we are 'slaves to sin' without His Spirit in us. This is my thoughts on figuring this out anyway. I present the idea that He could not work at transforming us into His likeness if he merely mingled with our sin nature, that would be entering into it himself, and contaminating his character by letting ours into Him, …to some degree submitting to equal status with it. That's how it seems to make sense to me at present. Praying and worshipping God are spiritual exercises. Being a Christian is a spiritual condition. God is Spirit and we are to worship Him in ‘spirit and in truth’. Maybe our spirit fully redeemed at salvation. I don’t know. It is a confusing subject and I feel a bit out of my depth writing this, I’ll admit. But it might be helpful to separate the idea of ‘mingling’ out of the equation, to accept the idea that our unregenerate human spirit is also fallen, as our souls and bodies. which then helps to separate from WL's idea that we need only 'exercise' our spirit and reject the 'soul' as ever and irrecoverably evil. |
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| 09-30-2020 03:13 PM | ||||
| Raptor |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Quote:
When we believed we were completely forgiven for any past and future sins. Sins we commit now hinder our fellowship and experience with the Lord and separate us from the Lord (and others) to one degree or another. That´s why we need to confess our sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness to reestablish our function and fellowship with the Lord. |
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| 09-30-2020 09:44 AM | ||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Quote:
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| 09-30-2020 12:33 AM | ||||
| Curious |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" To refresh my status, I am someone who never officially joined the LC but attended a one-evening-a-week shared meal and study time together, for an extended period of time. My main training came from another Christian ministry, one that also taught on the body/soul/spirit theory but with a totally different and much more helpful end goal. The ministry i served in has bookshops at all their locations, they sell books on matters Christian by many different authors including Watchman Nee. While there I worked out that they taught two contradictory theories about the B/B/S relationship to the fall. They taught that the body and soul are fallen but the spirit is not, AND that the B/S/S are all equally fallen. I was confused to discover this, and it was an unanswered question for me for many years. The source of their first position, weather directly or indirectly, was most likely Watchman Nee's writings. There are some scriptures that mention sins in the human spirit: 1 Samuel 30:6, Bitterness is a sin. Psalm 78:8. Faithlessness in their spirit, another sin attributed to the human spirit here. Proverbs 16:18 a haughty spirit. Ecclessiaties 7:9m , anger in the spirit, they type of anger that ‘resides in the lap of fools’. Spiritists and mediums, by definition, operate in the spiritual realm, but in a way that is totally in rebellion to God. Their sin is in their use of their spirit to contact demons and spirits, and use their powers, which God has forbidden. Evil spirits, the kind Jesus dealt with, must attach to a person’s spirit, injecting evil into the rest of the person, disordering them from the spirit out. That could not be possible if the human spirit is not fallen. Yet equally , our relationship to God is through His Spirit to ours. That is also clear. God and evil both enter the human by the human spirit. So my conclusion, resolved for me through by my contact with the LC, has been that the fall happened equally through the three parts of man. Like 3 half empty cups that were originally created 3 full cups. No cup is more empty than another/ no part is more fallen than another. WN and WL’s idea that the body is fallen and took the soul down with it, but anything involving the human spirit, (especially ‘exercising the spirit’ while rejecting the soul), is instantly pure, well this has to be nonsense. And nonsense that causes confusion weather taught within the LC or outside of it. And as pointed out, developed into another manipulation tool for Mr Lee, to control people and direct people away from truth, not towards it. |
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| 09-28-2020 05:53 AM | ||||
| Hodos |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Quote:
Hodos |
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| 09-27-2020 01:38 PM | ||||
| jigsaw44 |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Thank you for all your post I got to respond to all of ya now! Trapped- Coming in again with your great post. I have start off with the "exercising spirit" thing. In my opinion it is pretty hilarious when they try explain their practices with the "spirit", like I said when going into a detailed conversation they just go blank cause they themselves don't know why they do what they do or why they believe what they believe. Spirit is an abstract concept and myself is very confused on it when thinking deeply about it. The reason for all this mess in regards to LC instructions/practice is because they were once told how to do something without question and the person before them was told the something and it just goes back on and on and on. At the end of the day if they want to shout loudly and pump their arms, then they can do so but to a lot of people it just does not really work well and everyone has their way in which they deem the best way for themselves to contact the spirit. Regardless, great verses man I mean you really just broke down a great argument in the importance of the mind/soul quiet well. I agree Lee teaching is his teachings but like I said in my other threads/post his authority and iron grip of his ideology is just so controlling and unhealthy that it really contradicts his "all inclusive Christ" idea. The Local Churches is a Witness Lee denomination (I will make another thread on this topic). Ohio- I agree man with the constant conferences and the seemingly devious method they use to separate your lives from anything outside of the LC. In my opinion everything they do is about control. The goal is especially for newcomers is to try consume everything they do in their daily lives in accordance to LC practices/lifestyle. That is why they put out all these notifications and invite to every little thing conference/meetings/studies. Not only invite you but also pressure you in a seemingly harmless way. Once established in the Local churches they cant just let you off the hook,(the worked so hard for the hook/line/sinker- they cant just let you wiggle around and be free). That is where all the conferences/meetings/trainings continue on. I mean the summer trainings go on for weeks throughout the summer. I mean they don't want you doing family time in the summer right? School/work/LC lifestyle consumers so much of your time during the year, but in the summer- they want to make sure you don't have time for wiggle room of living your life. You have the slightest freedom/will to live your life- is the biggest enemy of the Local Churches. Your well being/happiness is not important to the Local Churches just the subjugation of your existence to Witness Lee and his doctrine/beliefs. If the pursuit of your life involves obtaining purpose/meaning/happiness, and in just in the slightest requires sometime out of the LC- This is undesirable/problematic for the LC. This goes a long way from the all post I have seen on here and it is the most biggest cause of the rift between Ex members and their relations to the LC. Sons Of Glory- Yes I understand the Flesh and spirit are going against each other and the soul/psychology is the stronghold that controls the coexistence of all three. But when the Local Churches try to act as a replacement (legalism/practices) of your individual soul//mind/psychology, that is when a problem occurs and there is a conflict of interest and when has to chose where to go from there on out. Some stay and live with it, others stay and are miserable. Others decide to leave and let go of many people they have meet for many years for what they believe to be necessary in order their lives the way they see fit. Hodos- What is happening in the local churches of the Vietnam. Did they split from Anaheim completely or are having an issue of control/individuality between the local churches there and the Despots at southern California? Feel free to post what's going on in current time. |
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| 09-27-2020 09:31 AM | ||||
| Sons to Glory! |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Quote:
Let me also say the word is clear that the flesh and spirit do war against each other. We can't change the flesh and it is getting more corrupted. So we have our soul and can elect to do things that put us in touch with the Lord Spirit - His word, prayer, fellowship, serving others, etc. In the flesh we can do exactly zip, nada, zilch, that will remain. Therefore it behooves us to look to Him to allow His Spirit to operate within us, and complete that good work He started tin us. But legalism is the flesh trying to make someone behave in a certain way. If we could do it on our own, out of our own fleshly energy, then we wouldn't have needed the New Covenant way - His life operating within us. The LC folks often fall into a trap of trying to get others to conform to some "good" image, which is just an outward regulation. It has little to no value in transforming us into His image. In fact, it is harmful, because it becomes something of a counterfeit prop to the Spirit's transforming work in us. We do the outward things and get frustrated when it doesn't work in the long run. Then we are susceptible to the enemy's discouragement, lies and condemnation. After being in a non-legal group for the past 20 years, I can see this all much more clearly now! Lately, I have been more & more thankful for how the saints here don't put these kinds of things on each other. It is for FREEDOM THAT CHRIST SET US FREE! (Gal 5:1) Anything that is less than that is not true - if it seems heavy, burdensome or laborious, it's not of Him. (He did say His yoke to us is easy and His burden light) That being said, of course it also behooves us to not put ourselves in situations that will harm our walk with Him. (like going to a nightclub, exposing ourselves to pornography, or being around the opposite sex alone in certain situations, etc.) We just need to remember that it is only the Spirit that gives life, and doing these outward things is a "child-conductor" at best. Does that make sense? |
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| 09-27-2020 07:13 AM | ||||
| Ohio |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Quote:
Quote:
First, I was once stopped from attending my family reunion because my serving brother persuaded me "how much the Lord was doing" that weekend. But nothing special was happening that weekend. Shortly afterwards I learned from his kids that he had taken them to Cedar Point amusement park during the week, which was utterly taboo for us serious Christians.No one ever voiced their displeasure with such abuses and related hypocrisy. It's just the way it was. We were in the "Army of God," and missing meetings was akin to going AWOL. The rules were made by those up the hill of hierarchy, and the rules always rolled down hill. Break the rules and you will be shamed. You may even be publicly humiliated, whether in attendance or not, so that everyone else will know how deficient your consecration had become. You will serve as a warning to others. And others did indeed pay attention! The brother who shamed me learned this from TC, who learned from WL, who learned from WN. A system of public shaming to control people. Very effective! I never saw one person ever stand up to this abusive system. People were gripped with fear. Brilliantly talented people held in silence while they watched others shamed. All convinced this was of God. In my case, these stories of hypocrisy helped to free me from the legalistic controls. Most left in silence when the could bear no more. The trail of precious brothers vanishing from the LC only grew over time. The common answer was always, "they had a problem with TC." One day this thought came to me. What if we had a balancing scale, with TC on one side, and all those other beloved brothers who left on the other side? Which side would we all choose? John Myer's e-book, A Future and A Hope, basically concludes with this same thought. |
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| 09-27-2020 05:09 AM | ||||
| Hodos |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Thank God. What the true words filled with divine life and light that opened our eyes, the saints in Vietnam were once blind victims who lived under the rule of false teachings - mind elimination, forsaking normal affections — and simply living in an utopian spirit not really and practicability. Thank you for sharing these words. I have already translated half of this thread into Vietnamese and posted on facebook already. Praise the Lord! Hodos. |
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| 09-26-2020 10:00 PM | ||||
| Trapped |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Let me add one other thing since you were talking about the soul, and not just the mind, which is what I mostly focused on. If we take the LC teaching that the soul includes the mind, emotion, and will....let's talk about emotions briefly then. Jesus wept. He overturned tables in anger. He had compassion. He was moved. He sweated bullets before going to the cross. He was indignant. And what about God? God is love. All these things describe emotions. Jesus didn't "deny His emotions" or "get out of His emotions". He felt them fully. They are part of the intended landscape of human experience. God doesn't ask us to deny our emotions across the board. That would be a robot, and we know God doesn't want robots because He created us with free will. But when did Jesus deny His emotions, His will, Himself? When going to the cross. We know this. We know He asked for the cup to pass from Him, yet not His own will but the Father's will. And when the Father still wanted Him to be crucified, that's when Jesus denied His emotions, His will, and Himself. We deny ourselves in relation to obedience and sin, not just for the sake of denying ourselves. |
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| 09-26-2020 08:19 PM | ||||
| Trapped |
Re: The pursuit of the "Soul" Quote:
Quote:
Luke 10:27 He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" Do you see your spirit anywhere in there? Nope. Oops! We aren't supposed to get out of our mind, but actually love God with our ENTIRE mind. What a difference from what Lee taught! Lee liked to split the mind and spirit apart. He liked to pit them against each other. He liked to make one good and one bad. But how does Paul speak of them? 1 Corinthians 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Uh oh again. Looks like we are supposed to both pray and sing with both our mind and our spirit. There's not a hint of "getting out of our mind" there either. And once you start looking for backup for Lee's teaching to "get out of your mind" anywhere in the New Testament, you'll quickly start realizing that it simply isn't there. He made it up. Literally. God has a mind. We were made in His image. We aren't supposed to get out of our mind. We are supposed to do what Romans tells us.... Romans 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, ....which is to use our mind and set it on the right thing. Not get out of it. God made us as a whole entity. As complete multi-faceted human beings. It's a jump into the land mired with mental health issues if anyone tries to follow Lee's wacko teaching on this topic and try to get out of a vital part of their personhood. This is what I wrote elsewhere on the forum as a personal example of how confusing this teaching is for young people: The biggest issue I have with this teaching [exercising your spirit] is that it is often used in contrast to "getting out of your mind", which is an abusive teaching. Scripture doesn't contrast the two (out of mind, into spirit) like the LC does. It's not an either/or like the LC teaches it. As a church kid I never, and I mean EVER, knew if or when I was "exercising my spirit". No one ever explained what it meant or how to do it aside from "push your spirit out!" (which just translated to being louder) and pumping your arm. One time I was being pressed so hard to "touch my spirit", I and another young person fell apart laughing it was so ridiculous. The serving one then said "See!! NOW you're touching your spirit!" How could laughing at how crazy it was to be told to do something without being told HOW to do it, actually BE that very thing? Needless to say I was left confused for years. Quote:
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| 09-25-2020 05:08 PM | ||||
| jigsaw44 |
The pursuit of the "Soul" Why does the pursuit of life in the slightest from such as: career, hobbies, relationship, knowledge- is seen as such a negative thing. People in the LC always say things like kill the soul or disregard it completely. When asked to how to pursue basic necessities in life that are essential for any human to live in harmony- their is answer is spirit. They say very weird things like think not with your mind but your spirit and live in the spirit. The honest answer is- the spirit is a very complicated concept and when asked any details in the explanation of the spirit or applying the spirit into everyday life- they go blank on an answer. The overemphasis on the "spirit" in practically every facet on everyday life just makes it seems like it is used to simply sway people from living in their own accordance and just follow church ministry/guidelines. They talk so much about the spirit but cant explain it in theory or in practice not even the idea of the spirit completely replacing the "soul" and "flesh" Everybody has flesh/soul(psychology), and spirit. You are gonna live with all three and control the balance of all three. There is no killing the soul...... what are you gonna do blow your brains out (mind my dark humor)?- I mean that will surely do it...... How are you gonna "think" with the spirit solely? I mean mindlessly replacing everything with the word "spirit" is not really practical and leads to confusion and unideal lifestyle. Desires of the "flesh" and "sOuL" are inevitable and God gave us all three for a reason. I understand Paul mentions living a life solely in the flesh. But there is a difference between soley living a flesh/soul life and simply realizing its there and is a part of you- but controlling it in the Christian lifestyle. Its not a crime or irreparable sin to just touch your soul and flesh as long as you control and pursue a Christian lifestyle. I already posted in my introduction/testimony thread, the first interaction with the brothers in the local church pulling me aside and lecturing me on my "soul life" (look at my introduction thread for details (original post)). From that point on it was just so funny seeing other recently recruited brothers from college campuses just looking confused as a dumb dog, while being lectured about the "flesh and "soul" life, when the mention minor details about their lives outside of the LC that go against the established legalism/practices/ideology established in the Local Churches. Because of this many potential recruits (brothers and sisters) from campuses are either gone/no longer attending anything related to LC or rarely attending just to see some brothers they consider friends. Now they are wondering "WhAt iN ThE WoRlD is HaPpEnIng? wHy ArE We StRuGgling To BrInG NeWcOmErs? |
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