Local Church Discussions - Reply to Topic

Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options Automatically parse links in text

03-23-2020 05:28 PM

manna-man

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by I.S

I would ask you to stay put and just pray for saints no matter where they meet or denominational title they go by to support you.

My main beef with LC is the following:
A tendency to judge people, criticize and think they're superior.

A lack of humility and acceptance of wrong doing, even when they have made mistakes.

You probably can't get help on many matters from leading ones in the recovery. By this I mean maters related to conflicts between saints, gaining good jobs or making career decisions and some other matters.

Still I would not recommend leaving because what would you leave to? If you can't learn the lesson of enjoying Christ in the midst of your suffering, perplexion, confusion of how some use the ministry you will miss something. In any case there isn't much food in Christianity. Of that I am convinced.

I.S
Consider this verse

Luke 23:34*King James Version (KJV)

34*Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Then said I.S

I would ask you to stay put and just pray for saints no matter where they meet or denominational title they go by to support you.

We can see your willingness to pray for the
saints. That's admirable.

When we consider Luke 23:34 how is it that there in no consideration for those in the world?
I ask this because of your following quote:

"In any case there isn't much food in Christianity. Of that I am convinced."

There is a disconnect here..

03-21-2020 01:53 PM

UntoHim

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by I.S

because what would you leave to?

Oh, I don't know....maybe to someplace that does not teach that Witness Lee was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth? Maybe someplace that does not teach that man is becoming God in life and nature. Maybe someplace that does not teach that "Protestantism is christless" and that the denominations are the daughters of the Great Whore.

I.S., this leaves a lot of places for Anon to go to! Wouldn't you agree?

Quote:

Originally Posted by I.S

In any case there isn't much food in Christianity. Of that I am convinced.

So you're like Witness Lee then...you are omnipresent and omniscient - you know for a fact that there isn't much food outside of the Local Church? I.S. how did you come to obtain these divine powers? Did you Pray-Read Lee messages and Call on The Lord for 40 days and 40 nights or something like that? Let us know - inquiring minds want to know!
-

03-21-2020 12:44 PM

I.S

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

03-14-2020 11:44 PM

aron

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by SentOutFree

This applies to others who have recently gone out of the LC. So thank you for your pieces for advice. Except this one - "Follow the Lord in the recovery and read the ministry "

The 'recovery' or 'restoration' or even -gasp- 'reformation' are all arguably misnomers. The 'fall' or 'degradation' occurred in the early chapters of Genesis (I see a series of 'falls' including Gen 6, as alluded to by Jude 1:6 and 2 Pet 2:4). The 'recovery' or 'restoration' occurred in the four gospels of the NT, at the latest in the early chapters of Acts (see Jesus' allusion to the "coming Kingdom" as initiated at Pentecost [1:6-8]). The epistles of Paul et al, up to and including the Apocalypse of John, are commentaries on and expansions of what occurred in the gospels, and don't change anything. Jesus of Nazareth is the Way. He's the King of Israel. He's Saviour of the World. There's no other name given, on earth or in heaven, by which we're to be saved. That's presented as immutable, irrevocable.

The 'ministry' concept was a vehicle, a way to lead ones into the voracious jaws of Witness Lee's circle of associates and family members. First was presented the so-called restored or recovered church. Then, this 'church' needed an 'oracle' or Deputy God, the so-called ministry of the age. Then, the ministry concept led one to imbalanced dependence on the person of that minister, and opened them up to his family: enter Philip Lee, Timothy Lee et al. The Witness Lee Mind Control Programme and Guanxi Network.

The whole thing is unbiblical and is a sham of the first order. They should teach this in high school: "Kids, you are going off to college. Irrespective of your religion or lack thereof, watch out for the cults. They'll suck out your brain and your soul." This ought to be taught, along with Algebra, Earth Science and World History. But they don't, and how many have been fooled! But the 'fall' is unchanged, and its cure. Both are still playing out today.

03-13-2020 06:36 PM

Oldtimer

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

I believe that god does not want everyone to have perfect understanding with His people like they are, all divided. His John 17 prayer shows his desire for us to be one, so we are not now one, but he has given us a tool to make us one. When we use that, we will all talk and understand where we are in error. When Jesus comes we will already be like him. We have already seen what can happen when we are all one, in Acts. If it is going to happen TO us after he comes, would he have prayed for it? rather than give us this tool to do it ourselves.
Can His people be one, now, in these times? In acts they were! "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place", and "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." This is when most miracles happen, when 5000 people saved in 1 day. Because in John 17 Jesus said that when the world sees that we are one they will know that God has sent Him.
What is that tool that he said will make is one? "22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.". The word Glory here is more like esteem, this is what the writer was thinking of in pil 2
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. What stops us going what it says in Philippians 2?

03-13-2020 04:57 PM

HERn

Re: I am apart of the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon

Although my entire extended family is in recovery, I know many outside the recovery. I even blend with many outside of the local churches. I have many friends and companions.

I think that is very good. If you feel safe you might share with some of your friends the peculiarities of The Lord's Recovery that you do not agree with. Ask the Lord to give you guidance and fellowship from the non-LC saints.

03-13-2020 02:33 PM

SentOutFree

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

This applies to others who have recently gone out the LC. So thank you for your pieces for advice. Except this one below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I.S

Follow the Lord in the recovery and read the ministry.

03-13-2020 11:02 AM

Sons to Glory!

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by I.S

Follow the Lord in the recovery and read the ministry.

Well conveyed - honest! Yes, we all still have the flesh and often walk in it, so we shouldn't be too disappointed with others (or ourselves) when things go sideways. Look, there are those in the Roman Church thing, and various other systems, who have a good walk with the Lord! Every system is tainted, at least until the Lord returns. We all must look to Him wherever we happen to be (actually by His design - He has placed us in the body where He sees fit).

In that day I don't think we'll have any excuse by saying, "Well You put me in such and such system, so how could I go on!?" We've all been given a measure of grace to pursue Him where we are, and that includes the LC or wherever! (and in that pursuit, He may tell us to leave where we are . . .)

03-13-2020 05:53 AM

I.S

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Anon,

Follow the Lord in the recovery and read the ministry.

Keep related to all truly born again believers elsewhere and be open to pray with them, meet individually or in small groups over coffee for fellowship even bible study. Some of them may care for you better than those in LC. That is my experience.

You can read other versions of the bible too.

All human beings are fallen so expect disappointment to come your way from believers in terms of how you are treated. Whether in LC or other group people will hurt you.

Remember it is a personal relationship with Christ. You are not bound to follow everything WL or WN says or what co workers say. In secondary things we can differ in doctrine and practice. God will make all things clear.

Pray about which meetings to attend in your locality and which saints to open personal matters to. There are wolves in the recovery as elsewhere or maybe a less strong word is people with ill will and malice. You don't have to attend all the blending conferences and trainings because it is tradition. What matters is doing things in life in spirit.

Do not judge or be too judgmental. Many Christians are very judgmental and LC has many of them too.

Know that jealousy and malice is rife in LC as anywhere else.

Know saints are quick to quarantine or speak ill of you if you differ in some points of doctrine or your way of life does not confirm to their view of how one should live. So be discrete about travel plans, extra curricular activities like sports or unbelieving friends as you commit all these to the Lord.

That is my advice after 16 years in the recovery in a locality far from you.

02-01-2020 12:20 PM

Curious

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus loved, and he lay down his life, for sinners. We couldn't reciprocate, but he loved anyway. The Father's great love flowed through him, to us. As he bled there on the cross, his family stood off (Psalm 27:10; 69:8), his disciples had deserted, and even denied him (!!!), his people had placed him "in the hands of lawless men" (Romans, i.e. gentiles) ~Acts 2:23. He'd been cursed, beaten, struck, whipped (Psalm 22:7,8,16). Yet he loved.

I just want to say, I enjoy these posts because, quite apart from the main point of this forum, there is very good commentary on the Christian life here generally.

Having gone through a system with error, the real important things have been identified by posters such as this one, and it is a blessing to read and be encouraged to focus on. I know people in other 'sideways' moves within Christianity, and the same focus away from love is foundational to their errors as well. Bless you aron and thanks for your posts.

02-01-2020 07:15 AM

aron

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon

Right now, I will just follow the Lord whether that’s leaving the LC or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon

The information I heard kinda scared me as my grandpa is a major part of a lot of it. I am the grandson of one of the leading elders in all of the LC. That won’t stray me away from leaving if the Lord is leading me that way though.

The LC functions through information control. Most of us who went through the system there, the so-called church life, knew nothing of Daystar Motor Homes or the effect of Witness Lee's two sons, Philip and Timothy, on that very church life and the people therein.

So it was a shock to read of it. We had heard of vague "turmoils" but that was someone else, far away. Eventually we began to realize, with more information, that the "storms" and "rebellions" were probably part of the LC system itself.

Now I want to come to the second part of your post, about leaving (or not). It's a common topic among those growing up there, and a difficult one. You have your entire life invested in one thing, and to consider an alternate life, as yet unknown, is nearly overwhelming.

But that's what life is: it's a series of decisions with consequences, many decisions unfortunately being made with little information. So we choose in partial ignorance, trusting God's goodness, hoping for the best.

Now, it's always good to get information, and make more informed decisions. But learning is not merely "who did what and when", or in the case of religion, learning Greek and Aramaic and Hebrew declensions, and what the recipients of apostolic letters could have been expected to understand.

All that's good and even necessary, but the one thing, the main thing, beyond rightness (righteousness) and self-control, is to love. And that doesn't come from a book or a meeting, but from life. It's why you're here. To learn to love. Love isn't a feeling, like a teen with a crush on a classmate, or a food choice ("I love pizza"). Love is an action, continually done, even when it's not reciprocated. Especially when it's not reciprocated!

Jesus loved, and he lay down his life, for sinners. We couldn't reciprocate, but he loved anyway. The Father's great love flowed through him, to us. As he bled there on the cross, his family stood off (Psalm 27:10; 69:8), his disciples had deserted, and even denied him (!!!), his people had placed him "in the hands of lawless men" (Romans, i.e. gentiles) ~Acts 2:23. He'd been cursed, beaten, struck, whipped (Psalm 22:7,8,16). Yet he loved.

Now, he set the bar, and we follow, even if we can't reach his measure. He expects us to try. Dorcas made shirts for the widows. I'm sure you know the story. Paul urged the Roman, Corinthian, and Galatian churches to set aside a portion for the poor of Jerusalem (1 Cor 16:1-4; cf Rom 15:23-29; Gal 2:10; Acts 24:17). This seems to be a deliberate attempt at fulfillment of Jesus' "give to those who can't repay you in this age". In man's economy, I give you something, and you give me back. I give you a book, you give me a dollar. I give you a loaf of bread, you pay me six shillings. But in God's economy you give selflessly, without expectation. Because God loves, because Christ loves. Jesus loved us first.

In my case, it might be to write my posts here with a bit more grace, to moderate my criticisms of LC practice and history, and to read and pay attention to others' ideas and not just to force mine own on the conversation. And on my job, I supervise young, lazy, indifferent workers who complain when I put them to tasks. Yet I must remember when I was their age, I was perhaps even worse! So I bear with them, and try to lead them, to forgive them, to guide them to more efficient activity. Remember, "Love is kind, love is patient..." ~1 Cor 13. I try not to blame my wife, parents and children for my misery, but to own it, repent, and grow out of it.

So even today, I learn to love. Slowly, fitfully, I try to follow the King.

02-01-2020 06:42 AM

UntoHim

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

anon,

Thank you for your heartfelt testimony. One of the main reasons this forum exists is for brothers and sisters just like you! It seems that you have seen through some of the problems and abberations in the Local Church. Yet you have kept your heart soft and your mind open, and these are two of the most important things for a young believer. Also, always remember that you have the Word of God as a "light unto your path".

Please consider registering for our forum by sending a request to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com Be sure to include your desired Username.
-

01-31-2020 09:52 PM

Anon

Re: I am apart of the LC

Thank you sister, this all means a lot more to me than you know. Bless you, and your journey with the Lord.

01-31-2020 11:31 AM

Nell

Re: I am apart of the LC

Anon,

Your message is so heart-wrenching. It makes me want to cry. I can say "amen" to those who have responded to you and add one simple prayer which is one I pray often. Very often. My prayer is "Lord, don't let me be deceived." Sometimes I add "Lord, I'm in trouble here. Please don't let me be deceived."

You may be inclined to think that all the things troubling you are things you need to figure out. I don't believe you need to figure out anything. As long as you are before the Lord with your heart open to Him and your sober mind open to Him and his Word (which you are), your greatest need is not to be misled. A quote I like is "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

Another thing, it really sounds like the Lord has you right where he wants you! Start a journal. Write down your questions and feelings and the date. When your questions are answered, write the answer and the date. Right now, thank Him for His faithfulness and graciousness. I have some journals that, looking back I read what was written and asked in amazement..."who wrote that???" Me? Naaaaahhhhh...couldn't be! :-)

Blessings to you Anon.

Nell

01-31-2020 08:00 AM

Anon

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And Anon, you seem to be at peace, and that is a good gauge I think. If the inner Anointing tells you you are home, then so be it. He is faithful to let us know the things we need and when we need them. I treasure when He lets me know that I am 100% where He has put me, and that all things are "the best they can be" (so let's gain Christ)! I get that sense from Him usually in the gatherings - a deeper appreciation for where He has me.

Thank you. Yes I appreciate everyone that’s being helpful. We are all brothers and sisters. The information I heard kinda scared me as my grandpa is a major part of a lot of it. I am the grandson of one of the leading elders in all of the LC. That won’t stray me away from leaving if the Lord is leading me that way though.

01-31-2020 07:56 AM

Anon

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And it is good to be cautious. Slow and steady is the best way to go forward. Let the Lord always go before you.

Hello, Brother. I really appreciate the reassuring words. Right now, I will just follow the Lord whether that’s leaving the LC or not.

01-31-2020 07:56 AM

Sons to Glory!

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

What a good first post . . . seems very honest! And I applaud the comments of the other members too, in not immediately blasting all things WL & LC. We are one in Him, period.

And Anon, you seem to be at peace, and that is a good gauge I think. If the inner Anointing tells you you are home, then so be it. He is faithful to let us know the things we need and when we need them. I treasure when He lets me know that I am 100% where He has put me, and that all things are "the best they can be" (so let's gain Christ)! I get that sense from Him usually in the gatherings - a deeper appreciation for where He has me.

We were just talking about this yesterday, at the brothers' breakfast fellowship. That is, how God has arranged EVERYTHING in our lives to be tailored for us, and vise-versa. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10) Lot's of light from this verse . . . It's a "we" thing - who we have been made is as part of the body. And he created us specifically for the task at hand in each of our lives. So He's got this whole thing, meaning both us and our environment!

"But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired." (1st Cor 12:18)

So like David, we just keep turning to Him no matter what!

01-31-2020 02:57 AM

aron

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon

I am very happy, I love the Lord, and I think I am on the right path. I have read a lot of things on this forum, and it is causing me to be more cautious.

Hello, if you are very happy and love the Lord then you are on the right path. I would encourage you to stay on this path, to the end. Happiness and love are like two feet, that one uses to make steps in the right direction. You can use them for the rest of your life.

And remember the second part of the Great Command, which is like the first, to love your fellow human being. Not just the LC member in the meeting with you, but especially "those who cannot repay you in this age". ~Luke 14:13,14

If you only love those who love you back (those on fire for the LC, and the 'good building material'), then where is your reward? Just keep that in mind, as well. ~Luke 6:32-36

And it is good to be cautious. Slow and steady is the best way to go forward. Let the Lord always go before you.

01-30-2020 10:50 PM

Anon

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

Welcome to this forum. I also grew up in the LC, and as far back as I can remember, I was aware that there were people out there who held "negative" views of the LC. I never gave that much thought until my own experiences in the LC seemed to contradict what I perceived the LC to be.

When I got to the point where I started searching for answers related to concerns I had regarding the LC, I started reading things like some of the writings on this forum, and then I began to realize that not everything is as it seems, and it did make me a little uncomfortable at first. That doesn't mean everyone will come to the same conclusions, but I think the important thing to note is that many ex-LC members have arrived at the same type of conclusions.

Yes, I love the Lord so much. And I fear many things about it or leaving or anything. My brother has left, and many others. Everyone is still loved. But some people in the LC are very wrong, and I'm just a little confused, brother.

01-30-2020 10:47 PM

Anon

Re: I am apart of the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi brother or sister!

It is very good for you to have companions in the study of the Word! Do you know any saints outside of the recovery?

Although my entire extended family is in recovery, I know many outside the recovery. I even blend with many outside of the local churches. I have many friends and companions.

01-30-2020 10:46 PM

Anon

Re: I am apart of the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Hi "Anon", Welcome! It sounds like you are on the right path. Do you have anything specific you would like to talk about?

I am not sure. I am very confused on my path, as I have been brought up in this church life. I love the Lord Jesus dearly, and I do not want to waste my life in the wrong. I came across this forum. So my thoughts were pretty scattered at first and I had a lot of emotion. A lot of the emotion was guilt and confused guilt. I was nervous I was being guilty for reading up on this stuff. And I've read a lot of things for hours and hours.

I wasn't sure if I shouldn't be researching into what I grew up in, and spending so much time doing it. I then had a realization from my spirit it is okay. And I went back to a verse I've seen where it talks about the disciples testing to see if what Paul said was supported by the scriptures. That was a good example for me. But naturally as I've grown up, I see more and more mistakes, and mishaps. Which is prominent probably everywhere because we are all sinners. I read so many things, I took it with a grain of salt, as I do with most things except the Word. But I def took something from it. It made me confused I grew up in this, and I probably would have been apart of the turmoil too. But my family is here in the Recovery, and there is a lot of good things, although a lot of bad things, many things stem form the past.

I read many personal accounts and got an outside view in. It helped me to realize every body's situation and we are all one. My family is in the recovery, and I don't plan on leaving at all. Especially because the "oracle" is dead, and the recovery can grow from its mistakes and corruption. It has made me question a lot of things, and lessen the ministry, witness Lee, and made me realize Christ is the answer. I think it's a good thing I've read everything, and I'll just continue in Christ and his Word, as that's my supply alone. I will not cross out ministry although there's a verse that says to seek your interpretations, I will just be with my spirit in ministry.

01-30-2020 08:15 PM

Freedom

Re: I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon

I have read many things on this page which have made me uncomfortable and have questioning. I am very happy, I love the Lord, and I think I am on the right path. I have read a lot of things on this forum, and it is causing me to be more cautious. I had never heard these things that have happened ever before.

01-30-2020 01:01 PM

Nell

Re: I am apart of the LC

Hi "Anon",

Welcome! It sounds like you are on the right path. Do you have anything specific you would like to talk about?

Nell

01-30-2020 12:54 PM

HERn

Re: I am apart of the LC

Hi brother or sister!

It is very good for you to have companions in the study of the Word! Do you know any saints outside of the recovery?

01-29-2020 03:39 PM

Anon

I Am A Part Of The Local Church

Hello everyone. I attend the LC, and I have since I can remember. My parents were born into it as well. I just wanted to talk with you all, and I hope I am not a judge. I am looking for guidance and help from an outside perspective. I love the Lord firstly, and very much. I am a very dedicated believer. We are all brothers and sisters. I do not think I am higher in any way at all, and I think to shun all other churches is hypocritical to oneness.

I am in my late teens. I do not plan on leaving but rather to talk with my brothers and sisters. I read the Word of God much more, and I take all ministry with a grain of salt. I have read many things on this page which have made me uncomfortable and have questioning. I am very happy, I love the Lord, and I think I am on the right path. I have read a lot of things on this forum, and it is causing me to be more cautious. I had never heard these things that have happened ever before. The Lord is very dear to me, and I do not want to careless in this way. I have problems with people who put Witness Lee as the oracle of God, or when ministry is the focus not the Lord. Witness Lee and Watchman Nee are dead, and I think the reputation can maybe be recovered. But luckily with my companions we focus on the Word. I am happy where I am, I am close to the Lord, diligent in his Word, and cautious with the other things. I just wanted to talk with you my brothers and sisters from an outside perspective.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads You may post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules