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| 10-19-2018 09:36 AM | ||||
| byHismercy |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
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| 10-19-2018 09:29 AM | ||||
| byHismercy |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
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| 10-19-2018 09:26 AM | ||||
| byHismercy |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
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| 10-19-2018 08:11 AM | ||||
| Nell |
Re: Discernment of spirits Yes, byHisMercy, an excellent testimony. Your words remind me of something Witness Lee actually said many years ago, when discussing discernment of "the real thing." As you know, part of the mission of the United States Secret Service is investigating counterfeit US Currency. In their training, they do not study the myriad of currencies printed. They study THE REAL THING. They memorize it. They learn the intricacies and tiny details of genuine US currency. This makes counterfeit currency obvious. When you know what's real, you recognize a fake when you see it. At this, Witness Lee encouraged us to know the Lord and in so doing, you recognize what is NOT the Lord. This actually helped me to recognize the signs when Lee himself began to go off the rails. It helped me to stand with what I knew to be true...what I knew of the Lord to be true. When you know what is true, you will be cognizant of the need to "try the spirits" when something seems "off". I began to see that Lee was contradicting the Word, and in many cases, his own ministry. I think this is the essence of this verse: 1 John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[a] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Nell |
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| 10-19-2018 08:08 AM | ||||
| countmeworthy |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
I recall walking on a sidewalk 'window shopping'. I stopped to look at the 'bling blings' being displayed: Antique jewelry, hallmark like cards, etc... all seemed harmless enough. So I walked in to check out the store. There was no one attending the store. It was empty and I supposed the attendant was somewhere in the back of the store. As I am looking at some jewelry, I suddenly felt an overwhelming sense of evil croaching close to me. I stopped and looked around the store. As I looked behind me, the other side of the room was filled with witchcraft junk, tarot cards, astrology stuff, and even witchcraft books. WOW! I then walked out of the store, calling on the Precious and Holy Name of Jesus. Once outside I recall asking Him to wash me in His Blood and remove the dirt off me. I never walked into that store again. I don't think I even got near that store ever! I have had several experiences in which the presence of demons have been extremely strong. I always apply the Blood of Jesus and they immediately leave. Oh how there is POWER, POWER, WONDER WORKING POWER IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB. Blessings to all. |
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| 10-19-2018 04:23 AM | ||||
| Ohio |
Re: Discernment of spirits Great testimony byHismercy. Thanks. While reading my eyes were opened to see all kinds of ways He has given us discernment. Just yesterday I was reminded by the devil of some shameful thing I had done 46 years ago. Right 46 years ago. Before I was saved, I had very little common sense. And I do mean very little! Just a dumb kid getting into trouble all the time. Being dramatically born again all alone in my bed gave me my first dose of common sense. That was the Spirit of God living within my heart. I saw everything in life differently. I was not comparing things in my life with a few select verses, rather I had begun to walk by the Spirit. His gift to me of "common sense" could also be called the "discernment of spirits." Today we do not walk merely by the Bible, but we walk by faith, we walk by His Spirit. Sure the Bible is vitally important, but our daily walk is not by the letters in a book, but by the Living One who is the Word. Praise Him! |
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| 10-18-2018 11:38 PM | ||||
| byHismercy |
Re: Discernment of spirits Ok, I have something to say about discernment of spirits. I have followed this conversation with a lot of confusion....I don't fully understand where Evang. is coming from or why he is insisting on limiting us to the verses of his choosing....forgive me if I am misunderstanding, Evan... But regarding actual experience of discernment of spirits, the first ( I know now) I had it was at the moment of my conversion, the first I prayed, confessed my sin, repented and invited Jesus to come to me, be my Savior. By the grace of God I happened to have this moment in a streaming crowd of humanity, about 5,000 people who were flowing around the stadium that night, heading for the bart subway in Oakland, CA. All of them, including myself, hopped up on drug of every sort. When I received Christ that night, He gave me the Holy Spirit....and the camraderie of deadheads, music and drug loving people, suddenly vanished. The same sweet crowd that I had wandered amongst all night turned. It was ugly. There was jeering, food thrown at us, it became so nasty so fast. The Lord Jesus showed me right then that the culture I was wrapped up in was a facade....friendly faces became hateful sneers and I knew that the truth is, drugs are the Enemies' realm. The peace, love, acceptance was a lie of Satan. Shortly after this, He made His presence known to me through a miraculous help....He didn't just save me into His kingdom then, but He actually saved me from my earthly dilemma....I was physically lost and I became found. This immediately after the sweet christian witness, whom He sent out that night, who invited me to pray and receive Jesus as my Savior, asked for a resolution to my situation. Literally the second after she wrapped up her prayer for me and said Amen. The peace of Christ came over my whole being and I was saved, safe, and marveling!! believe me, I was in awe....Jesus is alive! He cares about me! He came out to fetch me in my debased, selfish, wasting sinful humanity. The fact of it still makes me marvel. He came in. He has never abandoned me. Since that wonderful moment, I have had other experiences where I can see demons manifest in people right before my eyes, and I know this discernment was given to me by the Holy Spirit, just as the word says. And, also, the more I study His word, searching the answer to (you name it) the question, the more He reveals, the more my eyes are opened to deceptions, particularly. All scripture is God breathed! All of it good for instruction in righteousness! All of it living and operative in those who believe! Every word good for correction! And all of it leading to more discernment....discerning sin(personally speaking), spirits, Gods' wisdom... Most recently, the devil pitched a little fit the day I burned all that Lee ministry material....the night of that day, a demon came at me snarling, trying to terrorize me in my bed. Does anybody else notice how amped up spiritual attack becomes when the Lord gives you His view through scrioture, or the prayer is so wonderful, the time spent with Jesus so precious and revealing of Himself, that you are just left in awe of Him, in reverence of Him? My experience is the devil really gets upset. Ok, thats' all.... Except, Evan, you just might try not telling God what His word is good for and what it's not....see if just trusting all of His Word for all things changes your mind. What if you looked at Christs' title...the Word of God....and receive scripture in humility. I think you will find man made limits looking like foolishness...God bless us in this conversation.... |
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| 10-16-2018 03:42 PM | ||||
| Ohio |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
The O.T. is the foundation for the New. Even Lee said as much. Have you left the LC like we told you to? Seems like you been quoting "Got Questions" a lot lately. |
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| 10-16-2018 03:03 PM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
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| 10-15-2018 11:38 PM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
Quote:
Using the Old Testament for spiritual discernment will lead one down the path of Judaism, not Christianity. Using "the Bible for discernment" is a cover for meaning we pick and choose whatever criteria we like from the New or Old Testaments, and use that to evaluate a person's spirit or ministry. This is none other than a self-driven method of discernment which is quite different to the simple tests proposed by the apostle Paul and John, which served them well in the problems with the gnostics and Judaizers in the early church. |
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| 10-15-2018 09:30 PM | ||||
| JJ |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
v 6 includes "he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." So anyone not listening to the apostles' preaching (what is recorded in the Bible) is not from God. V 21 includes "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar Evangelical seems to be alone in forcing us to use only three verses for discernment of what one says and is foolhardy to exclude the Bible and the old testament in particular! Dangerous! That's what got a lot of us into trouble in TLR. Run from such talk. I'm done arguing this point any further. |
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| 10-14-2018 08:32 PM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits I understand the different facets of salvation. However for the topic concerned about who has the Spirit and who does not, who has the genuine anointing and who does not, I think it suffices to constrain our discussion to the salvation of justification by faith alone without works. You seem to be talking about tests for other aspects of salvation - test of sanctification, test of obedience, test of a faithful servant. 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 mentions nothing about those. If we are faced with someone prophesying regularly in the meeting in the Lord's name, we first should apply 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 to see whether they have the genuine Spirit of God through what the mouth confesses of what the heart believes, before we look at how obedient they are to a set of outward criteria. Their message may even be doctrinally correct, however the anointing may be absent. |
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| 10-14-2018 02:55 PM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
So a test which employs Jewish Old Testament law is not a good test of spirits. Without 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 , application of Proverbs 2 for testing the spirit could lead us to the conclusion that a devout and religious Jew has God's Spirit. Probably Jews concluded that even Christ was a sinner and unrighteous because he befriended the wicked, contrary to the advice of Proverbs 2. 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 say nothing about using God's word as a "further test". For example, 1 John 4:2-3 does not say "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, now use the Scripture to test it further". There's nothing to indicate that the tests are incomplete. |
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| 10-14-2018 02:43 PM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits The problem with the "we need further tests" view is that 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 do not describe any further tests, nor do they say that these tests are not complete. It is only common sense that John or Paul would have said that the tests are not complete if they were. I believe by people saying the tests are inadequate they mean that they are inadequate for testing the false notions constructed in Christianity about spirits. In Christianity they invent "spirits" or angels for everything, both good and bad, and then test them against criteria which is not found in the bible. Regarding feelings, there are feelings from the natural man and there are feelings in the Spirit. "avoid your feelings" means avoid your fallen feelings, and "ask about their feeling" means ask about the feeling in the Spirit. For someone who understands the difference between the flesh and the spirit there can be no contradiction. |
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| 10-14-2018 11:33 AM | ||||
| Ohio |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
I have often said that my biggest failure in the LC's was to trust "the brothers" unreservedly. Supposedly they "cared for our soul," (using Heb 13.17 to their advantage,) actually most elders I knew just did what HQ's told them to do. |
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| 10-14-2018 09:31 AM | ||||
| JJ |
Re: Discernment of spirits God’s word is that further test, as ZNP pointed us to in Hebrews 4:12 and Proverbs (see Proverbs 2 and 4 links in my last post). |
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| 10-14-2018 08:53 AM | ||||
| Trapped |
Re: Discernment of spirits I also cannot agree that Evangelical's OP presents the complete way to discern spirits. All three verse passages cited refer to discernment by what is spoken (confessing the name); however, as several others have said, there are other verses that state there will be some who say "Lord, Lord" and yet the Lord never knew them. I think we also all know there are many out there using the Lord's name and saying the phrases cited in the Bible as a test for discerning spirits, and yet they are false prophets. I would say rather that the OP presents a test that is a first-line of defense. Obviously if someone cannot even say "Jesus is Lord" then that alone is ample evidence that can be used for discernment. But if they can say "Jesus is Lord", it seems there is further testing needed for full and proper discernment. But what is that further testing? ----- To change brief direction about "feeling". I have heard for decades about not "going with our feelings". However, I would say one of the most oft-repeated phrases among brothers in the lead is "How you do feel about such-and-such matter?" "Before I can do anything I need to get the brothers' feeling." Bizarre for the "regular" saints to be told to avoid their feeling but the ones making the decisions are asked about their feeling constantly. |
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| 10-14-2018 07:00 AM | ||||
| Nell |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
Above all, remember that what you read on this forum is the opinion or interpretation of others. Don't rely on someone who speaks as though he knows everything when in fact, it's only his opinion. He has no authoritative interpretation of the bible, just like WLee didn't. |
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| 10-14-2018 02:38 AM | ||||
| Ohio |
Re: Discernment of spirits Whatever tests you have used on the corruption at LSM obviously are not working for you. "Test all things, hold on to the good." -- I Thess 5 |
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| 10-14-2018 01:29 AM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
1 John 2:20 is not about gut feeling. The true and genuine anointing will always affirm the tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15. This is even alluded to in 1 John 2:22 : Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son. Do not use feelings to discern the Spirit - that is the error of the Pentecostals, who use music which stimulates emotions. That is how the Kundalini spirit can exist.They do not feel that the Spirit is present unless they have some sort of feeling. Likewise, we should not use the mind/thoughts to discern the Spirit e.g. "today I had a pleasant thought of Christ and that means I have the Spirit of God", or "today I had a negative evil thought and that means I don't have the Spirit". Spiritual things can only be discerned by spiritual means. The tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 are spiritual tests, and do not rely upon thought or feeling - these tests can not only discern the Spirit but they can help avoid all kinds of error. |
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| 10-13-2018 09:42 PM | ||||
| Nell |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I don't know what term to use, but "gut feeling" isn't wrong. Another expression is "you know what you know". It's the reason UntoHim asked Evangelical "So God's Word is inadequate for discerning the spirits? Do you realize how foolish this sounds?" We have the anointing from the Holy One, and we know the truth. It's hard to explain, but sometimes you just smell a rat. Nell |
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| 10-13-2018 09:55 AM | ||||
| Truthseeker |
Re: Discernment of spirits I have a question here. Is the gut feeling considered as a sign of inner life or Spirit in us? I very often see that Lee promotes inner feelings which are corresponding to God's feeling inside us. Do you think that gut feeling is a sign from God? |
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| 10-13-2018 06:01 AM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
Quote:
I am sure that John had the gnostic gospel in mind of Jesus being a spirit and not a human being, and not as you suggest. Indeed the context of Hebrews 4 and in particular 4:11 "let us, therefore" is key to understanding its application to ones own self, for self-reflection, as to whether we have ourselves entered God's rest. And the following verse, verse 12, on the application of God's Word to ones own self, where it "divides the soul and spirit", where the Word of God renews our mind and becomes like a mirror (James 1:23-24). Here lies the practical difficulty of applying Hebrews 4:12 God's Word to divide someone else soul and spirit, in order to discern their spirit - it simply cannot be done and I have never seen it applied successfully in practice. However in 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 the focus is decidedly on others, in some versions it states plainly - "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God". There is no such plain statement in Hebrews 4:12, that we can apply it to test the spirits of others. Neither does 1 John 4 or 1 Cor 12 mention anything of the sort mentioned in Hebrews 4:12. Furthermore, if Hebrews 4:12 was a suitable test, or worthy of even the slightest consideration, Paul or John most likely would have said so. Paul or John could have, in 1 John 4 and 1 Cor 12, easily mentioned something like Hebrews 4:12 when discussing the discerning of spirits. The problem with observing the outward things, by way of action or fruit, is that we would not be able to discern the difference between a Christian, a devout Jew, or a devout Muslim or an exceptional humanist. Although some have raised the point that what a person says may not be from the heart, it also may be the case that a person's actions are merely an act. The Bible, in 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 , has already told us what discernment approach is most effective. |
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| 10-12-2018 08:34 PM | ||||
| JJ |
Re: Discernment of spirits Re testing spirits: Evangelical postulated: “The genuine anointing can be discerned by applying the test of spirits: 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 It is noteworthy that no where does Paul or John direct the believers to consult Scripture for discernment - discernment of spirits requires a spiritual, not theological, solution. These are the tests that John and Paul gave to the early Christians to be able to discern the spirits and the genuine anointing - and remember at this time Christianity as we know it today did not exist, and paganism/false Christs were more rife then that it is in our "secular Christian culture" today. Anyone who wants to use other or non-biblical methods to discern because they think they know better are almost sure to reach the wrong conclusions. The categorical "10 ways to tell...." methods that you can find on the internet for trying to discern a good marriage partner, a good job, or even whether a pastor or church is genuine, are also non-biblical approaches and do not work for spirits because they are not spiritual.” Here are links to the cited verses in context: https://biblehub.com/blb/1_john/4.htm https://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/12.htm Indeed these are good verses to apply to “testing the spirits”. The lordship of Jesus Christ and whether we confess him as Lord or curse Him is key. ZNPaaneah (ZNP) responded by citing Hebrews 4:12. Here it is in context: https://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/4.htm. Evangelical responded “That is not offered as a test of spirits for other people, but for self-discernment (see the context of verse 11). A simple practical example would suffice to show the inadequacy of God's Word for discerning the spirits. It is impractical to test someone's spirit using God's Word.” But the context of Hebrews 4 is Paul’s exhortation to be diligent to enter into God’s rest and not fall into disobedience to the good news that has been announced to us through God’s speaking in the Son. And, verse 13 applies “to all creatures” not just oneself. So, I don’t think it can be dismissed so easily as a test of others spirit. ZNP also cited Proverbs. I found pertinent verses in Proverbs 2 https://biblehub.com/bsb/proverbs/2.htm and 4. https://biblehub.com/bsb/proverbs/4.htm. After reading these I wouldn’t be so quick to drop God’s word when testing a person’s speaking. Unto Him and ZNP provided good biblical support that some could pass the outward test of saying the words “Lord Jesus” but not living in obedience to His lordship go on to deceive us. After considering the posts on this thread I just don’t agree with Evangelicals opening post. |
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| 10-09-2018 07:46 PM | ||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
This is what we are doing on this forum. We are proving, testing, examining, considering "whether they are of God". because many false prophets are gone out into the world. I feel this is one of the most important lessons we learned in the LRC. This is a direct referral to what Paul said to the Corinthians, and what Jesus said in the gospels. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: This is John, the same one who said that the word became flesh and tabernacled among us. Saying that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is equivalent to saying that the word of God has been lived out and witnessed by us. I understand this term "confesseth" differently than to just "say". So they "say Lord, Lord" that is not a confession. A confession is where you tell your secret, you tell the truth. Someone masquerading can put on a mask and pretend. Lies are merely from the lips, but a confession is from the heart. 3 and every spirit that [a]confesseth not Jesus is not of God: This is my biggest issue with the doctrine of MOTA, I feel it is a denial of Jesus. The OT prophesied that Jesus would be "the Minister of the Age". To claim that for yourself or for Watchman Nee is to deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Likewise I feel at its heart the doctrine of the ground of the church denies the Lord's redemption. and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already. |
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| 10-09-2018 07:22 PM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
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| 10-09-2018 07:21 PM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
But I don't see many supporting the use of these scriptures for discernment. I see many arguments of man against the employment of them, and so far no one has justified why 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 should not be used or why they are insufficient. |
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| 10-09-2018 07:17 PM | ||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
2. Jesus says 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day [when I judge them], ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many miracles in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them publicly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me [you are banished from My presence], you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].’ 3. Jesus also said 7 You hypocrites (play-actors, pretenders), rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said, 8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me. It is quite obvious from the NT that there will be false Christ's and false apostles. They will do everything in their power to deceive even the elect. But evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. That means they will speak lies, they will say "lord, lord" yet they do not do what the Lord tells them to do. When you obey the Lord's speaking to you then you are proclaiming that He is Lord. |
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| 10-09-2018 07:00 PM | ||||
| UntoHim |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
Quote:
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| 10-09-2018 04:59 PM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits Well duh, you're just stating the obvious - anyone can see that I quoted 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 which is from God's Word. A thinking person would realize that I am not contradicting what should be obvious. Let's think for a moment how did they discern spirits before 1 John, 1 Corinthians were written? Did they consult the New Testament? It didn't even exist yet. But they would have discerned by hearing what the mouth confessed. 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 are a record of how they tested spirits in the early church. But I don't see many supporting the use of these scriptures for discernment. I see many arguments of man against the employment of them, and so far no one has justified why 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 should not be used or why they are insufficient. |
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| 10-09-2018 04:42 PM | ||||
| UntoHim |
Re: Discernment of spirits Mr. E. You are a follower of Witness Lee. You are a member of the Local Church of Witness Lee. You have not repudiated one single teaching, one single practice, or any of the dark, despicable sordid history of the Local Church. Therefore your discernment about legitimate Christian discernment is extremely questionable at best. None your googling and searching the web will change this fact. You are in no position to tell other Christians about disinterment. Quote:
Your guru, Acting God and Minister of The Age's legitimate, biblical discernment was extremely suspect at best. The man failed the test over and over and over again. The most extreme example of course is his discernment (or lack thereof) between true spirits that "are from God" - the one's that tried to rescue him from himself and his sons over decades - and the spirits that were not from God - the ones that apparently influenced and controlled him (for how long is a matter of debate). - |
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| 10-09-2018 02:08 PM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
A simple practical example would suffice to show the inadequacy of God's Word for discerning the spirits. It is impractical to test someone's spirit using God's Word. |
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| 10-09-2018 07:49 AM | ||||
| ZNPaaneah |
Re: Discernment of spirits Quote:
1 The proverbs (truths obscurely expressed, maxims) of Solomon son of David, king of Israel: 2 To know [skillful and godly] wisdom and instruction; To discern and comprehend the words of understanding and insight, 3 To receive instruction in wise behavior and the discipline of wise thoughtfulness, Righteousness, justice, and integrity; |
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| 10-09-2018 07:43 AM | ||||
| awareness |
Re: Discernment of spirits Maybe it's just me. But maybe you should rework your OP to make your point clearer. Or at least add an addendum to it. |
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| 10-09-2018 06:46 AM | ||||
| Evangelical |
Discernment of spirits Reposting this out of the adoption thread: The genuine anointing can be discerned by applying the test of spirits: 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 It is noteworthy that no where does Paul or John direct the believers to consult Scripture for discernment - discernment of spirits requires a spiritual, not theological, solution. These are the tests that John and Paul gave to the early Christians to be able to discern the spirits and the genuine anointing - and remember at this time Christianity as we know it today did not exist, and paganism/false Christs were more rife then that it is in our "secular Christian culture" today. Anyone who wants to use other or non-biblical methods to discern because they think they know better are almost sure to reach the wrong conclusions. The categorical "10 ways to tell...." methods that you can find on the internet for trying to discern a good marriage partner, a good job, or even whether a pastor or church is genuine, are also non-biblical approaches and do not work for spirits because they are not spiritual. |
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