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03-01-2019 10:19 AM

Ohio

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

What kind of a "Christian" is LSM building these little people into being?

Fakers.

By necessity. To make it in the system.

A few years before Lee passed, ~1994 Gene Gruhler an elder in Anaheim, concocted a "baby to trainee" scheme, called "The Pipeline," for all LC children. It was designed to be the end all solution to the 2nd generation, church kid exodus. Just punch your newborn into the program, and out comes a useful FTTA trainee. Gene Gruhler was hailed as a genius. To date all other LC avenues had failed, so finally LSM would step in and fix the problem, once and for all.

In 1995, we had a sister from LSM staying with us for a few months. Thus we got advanced notice of the "Lord's new move, His up-to-date speaking, the latest flow from the throne." At the time, I was all ears, and my only regret was knowing that all my teenage kids had missed out on the initial stages of "The Pipeline."

Not so with some LC friends of mine. Their kids were little, with one on the way. She listened attentively to all of the Pipeline details, and then freaked out. She was not having any part of the Pipeline for her kids. In fact, she had had it with all of the LC programs, and thought it was about time to leave.

Interestingly for some reason Anaheim had enough of Gene Gruhler too. Shortly after Lee's death GG was asked to leave. Rumor has it, that he was too legalistic for some of the newly crowned "Blendeds." Apparently it was OK to be legalistic with all the LC's, but don't be legalistic with the Blended Bosses and their families.

03-01-2019 07:07 AM

Cal

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And they say, "Don't ask questions". An LC defender on this site read my comments about the disjointed OT interpretations in the Psalms and said, "Perhaps it is like this." Yes, but perhaps it is not. And the children don't get to say, "Perhaps it is not".

All recovery in history started with someone saying, "Perhaps it is not."

Yet in "the Recovery" itself you cannot say that.

If that isn't INSANE tell me what is.

03-01-2019 06:55 AM

aron

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

These poor little people aren't allowed to use their mind without being shamed. They aren't allowed to ask questions without being labelled. They aren't allowed to participate in normal, positive human activities without condemnation.

The really good fakers, the ones who don't want to disappoint their parents, the ones who are forced to lead this double life as young children, end up in deep mental and psychological turmoil once they are old enough to actually choose.

The ones who don't care how they look, the "rebellious" "backsliders" seem to end up doing better just as stable adults in the long run..

The world is arguably a mess. War, violence, corruption, greed, selfishness, disease, famine, natural disasters, sickness and death. Why shouldn't the young people question it? How is that somehow "rebellion" to try to use your brain and figure it out?

"Oh, Witness Lee figured it out already; all we have to do is buy his books and go to his trainings."

And then you read where in one place the psalmist dips his feet in his enemy's blood and WL's footnote said, "Christ is defeating Satan" and in another place similar sentiments get panned as "unchristian" and you go, "Huh?" And they say, "Don't ask questions". An LC defender on this site read my comments about the disjointed OT interpretations in the Psalms and said, "Perhaps it is like this." Yes, but perhaps it is not. And the children don't get to say, "Perhaps it is not".

Or you hear about a "storm" or "rebellion" and dozens or hundreds of assemblies have left the association/Church and you ask what happened and they go, "Oh, we don't talk about it." Again, the children don't have the option to look for alternatives. So they cope. As an adult, I was able to leave and go back to Podunk Community Church. They don't have an exit.

I came in as a young adult, and remember going to children's meetings and the elder's wife was telling them that dinosaurs' bones were put in the earth by Satan to deceive mankind, because we all know the earth is only 7,000 years old. I was like, "Huh?" What does that have to do with the Bible? But I kept my mouth shut because, Hey, it's the church! And of course the children just sat there looking up at her. What else could they do?

Try to imagine what that kind of environment of enforced thoughtlessness does to a person's mind, when they're programmed from early childhood. It took me about 8 years after leaving to begin to critically assess the Bible, and later some years on this forum to begin to peel the layers back. It took years to be able to read the RecV and say, "Perhaps it is not like this". It's an impressively comprehensive and deeply rooted system of mind control. But the cost of assimilation is real.

03-01-2019 06:25 AM

Cal

Re: What about the Children?

Social systems which cannot make mid-course adjustments are destined to damage people. The LR takes it a step further, in that not only it cannot make adjustments, it will not. If fact, adjustments themselves are considered evil, because they call into question the infallibility of their founder, Witness Lee. So the whole system exists, not to help people, but to preserve Lee's legacy. Which, ironically, guarantees his legacy will be a bad one. But not before many innocents are damaged, unfortunately.

02-28-2019 08:23 PM

Trapped

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Good evening all,

I recently came back to this site, after a hiatus of perhaps a year. What brought me back was a call from a brother in Christ who had a run-in with a Local Church member, and that brought me to recommending that this brother check out Local Church Discussions to find out more about what was behind that little Bibles for Canada Recovery Version that was thrust into his hands. Somehow, since dropping by here again, I find myself once more posting and thinking about my own time in the LC... and that's what's brought up this topic.

I mentioned in another thread that, from a brief survey of posters, I am of a more recent 'generation' of LSM than many here. I wasn't part of "The Recoverys" glory days I hear tell of in the 70's... and I think that maybe gives me a different perspective than those of you who enjoyed something that seemed... I don't know, 'radically real', back then? What I've seen, instead, is the fruit that grew up out what became real radicalism within LSM. And that brings me to the burden of this topic:

What about the Children?

I mentioned in another post that I had heard about LSM's "lost generation" - I'd heard about it when I was a member, from other members. A turmoil that caused a generation of LC kids to leave Lee's church. I heard those members talk about how it caused them to change direction - to invest more in their own children... and I saw that too. In my "locality", many LC kids were homeschooled. Their families only associated with other LC families - you know how the LC is; it's a whole way of life. In some ways, this can look like a beautiful picture of what parenting and shepherding is supposed to be... but is it?

What turmoil lost the generation? When did the "New Way" occur? Could the two be related? What was it really like back in the 'glory days', when there was no Recovery Version, when there were credits in the hymnals for the authors of the hymn, when administration was truly local, when the sharing was from the Bible, and not from footnotes and life studies and HWMRs?

We've debated in other posts the validity of calling the LC a cult. I don't mean to get back to that debate here, but I would say that something a cult does is mold your thinking. It changes a persons character - conforms it from it's natural individuality to a 'type'... and that's happened in the LC. People talk oddly. They use unnatural language to say plain things, and they use it because they hear it and they read it and they speak it to eachother continuously. It becomes really quite odd, especially as you distance yourself from it... but I digress.

My point is, a culture was created by Lee - a very unique culture that purposely set itself apart from Christianity and all other Christians. What I want to explore in this thread, is what has that done to the children raised in that culture?

We post a lot of "facts" about LSM - some do it to expose to others who may be lurking exactly what the real facts are. Some do it to examine the evidence for themselves... and some may simply yet bare a grudge or have a burden they cannot yet lay down. Myself, I write to expose to other potential LSM-converts exactly what the facts are.... but again, what about the children?

LSM children are raised in a culture that teaches them that they alone are a part of the Body of Christ (lurkers, you can say I cannot prove this by Lee's writing - but the spirit of what was written is surely there and this interpretation is taken by many within the movement). LSM children are taught that there is a specific way to pray (honestly, an LSM unique way). LSM children are taught to have disdain for those with Pastoral gifts (a disavowel of Ephesians 4:11). LSM children are taught to pray read the Bible rather than read it, to use their feelings rather than their mind to understand God, to trust in an interpreter for the Word rather than the Word of God itself, and to use language no other Christian on Earth would use (can anyone here tell me why folks in my locality would spontaneously shout out "Thank you Jesus you're small enough to eat"? 'Cause they sure couldn't.) What kind of a "christian" is LSM building these little people into being?

I've written here an intro for your thoughts, and I welcome them. I think this is especially important to consider, given that LSM's current membership (atleast in the localities I have visited) is largely second and third generation at this point.... very different from where many of us started, as once-outsiders looking in.

Ray

What kind of a "Christian" is LSM building these little people into being?

Fakers.

By necessity. To make it in the system.

These poor little people are relentlessly choked with premature knowledge so that they "know" God without ever needing to know God. These poor little people have the expectation that they would be living a mature God-man life before they ever know how to speak to God in a genuine, non-coerced way. These poor little people aren't allowed to use their mind without being shamed. They aren't allowed to ask questions without being labelled. They aren't allowed to participate in normal, positive human activities without condemnation.

The really good fakers, the ones who don't want to disappoint their parents, the ones who are forced to lead this double life as young children, end up in deep mental and psychological turmoil once they are old enough to actually choose.

The ones who don't care how they look, the "rebellious" "backsliders" seem to end up doing better just as stable adults in the long run.

What kind of a "Christian" is LSM building these little people into being?

Unnecessarily damaged people who feel MORE GUILTY for walking into a CHRISTIAN bookstore than walking into a regular bookstore. That says volumes.

Damaged people who are trapped in their mind and can't do a nice gesture for a person because they "can't discern whether they in their natural man" or not.

Damaged people who don't have a relationship with their parents because the shame of being disillusioned with something that was all an illusion is too great, and they still don't want to disappoint their parents.

Damaged people who find out that solid and trusting relationships they thought they had were really just counted as trash to be thrown out on the street in the blink of an eye.

Damaged people who think God is against them and wants to take everything away from them.

Damaged people who are further damaged by the people who proclaim to read the Bible and be doers of it, but don't live according to it in their care for those they hurt.

Damaged people who can't make friends because everyone is either "evil" or in the illusion they left behind.

Damaged people who can't get help because the screwed up world they grew up in is not remotely understandable to anyone out there.

Damaged people who trusted those they were supposed to trust and then find themselves in a world of 7 billion people not knowing who or what they can trust.

03-28-2013 11:57 AM

TLFisher

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ylhoff

If I may ask, are you asking about how to reach those children who were in the first generation and left just prior to, during and just after the "turmoil period?" And if so, how to somehow reach them?

I was one who left just as the door knocking aspect of the New Way was getting underway (Fall 86). I resurfaced in the early 90's. Most of those children I knew and went to YP conferences with were no longer meeting in the local churches. Within the last 5 years some of the ones I knew I reconnected briefly via Facebook. So if you're a Facebook user, I would recommend Facebook as a medium for reaching them.

As an addition I realize the attitude towards young people lost during and after the turmoil is "they were lost to the world" is an inaccuarate and unfair attitude to have. I believe PriestlyScribe has on one of his websites what Minoru Chen had to share regarding the young people from this generation.

03-27-2013 10:38 PM

ylhoff

Re: What about the Children?

11-21-2012 03:44 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Interesting admission, why didn't you discuss this in church meetings?

My sharing was in the form of testimonies based on the message. Many saints were not interested in discussing the gospel work on the campus unless they were involved. We did discuss these events with all involved. That was in Houston. The brother who took the lead to bring the gospel to the campus encouraged this. In Houston I was the only brother on campus that didn't live in the dorms, I lived in a brothers house. As a result the brothers on campus were often living in rooms two or three doors down from the saints in the various Christian fellowships on campus. They ate meals together, studied together, and we fellowshipped with each other often. (Once I went to a meeting of Moonies, Sun Yung Moon, and that was the only time I was asked by the brother taking the lead on campus to not mention that to the other saints. I went because I met a gospel contact of mine who was going because he wanted to do a paper on them. I didn't want him to go alone.)

In Odessa we were much more open. The church was much smaller and therefore the gospel was much more integral to everyone. Four brothers living in the brothers house would spend Saturday driving around West Texas and meeting with other Christian groups from a breakfast meeting in one town to church meetings in another town. The elders in the church in Odessa did not have any issue with this at all. However, speaking in the church meetings was generally tied to the message shared.

11-21-2012 03:34 PM

NeitherFirstnorLast

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is ridiculous. I did this all the time. However, I did not openly discuss this in church meetings.

Interesting admission, why didn't you discuss this in church meetings?

11-21-2012 08:47 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

That is ridiculous. I did this all the time. However, I did not openly discuss this in church meetings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Now to reach those born and raised in the local church, just accept the fact many may meet there because of tradition. Just as if they were a Baptist or a Catholic, they're used to certain practices, doctrines, etc and anything else would just take them out of their comfort zone. There's a certain structure for someone raised in the local churches where all your social relationships are driven by the local church culture.

This is scary when you consider the spiritual abuse that takes place in the LRC.

"Studies have shown that envy and resentment may be motives for bullying.[19] Research on the self-esteem of bullies has produced equivocal results.[20][21] While some bullies are arrogant and narcissistic,[22] bullies can also use bullying as a tool to conceal shame or anxiety or to boost self-esteem: by demeaning others, the abuser feels empowered.[23] Bullies may bully out of jealousy or because they themselves are bullied.[24] Some have argued that a bully reflects the environment of his home, repeating the model he learned from his parents.[25]" (Taken from Wikipedia)

1. We have seen that Witness Lee was arrogant and narcissistic, which is associated with his bullying.
2. We have seen that those bullied by the likes of WL and TC also became bullies themselves as evidenced by the BBs behavior.
3. I believe a lot of the bullying that took place in the LRC was to conceal shame, or due to anxiety. They did not want anyone questioning the errors of the past. We have seen this directed at Steve Isitt, etc.
4. I believe that I have also seen bullying in the LRC as a result of jealousy.
5. But the scary one here is the last, a bully reflects the environment of the home. It seems children who grow up in the LRC may be more likely to repeat the behavior they are observing and learning in the LRC. It is a shame to think that these behaviors could be thought of as normal behavior in the church.

11-21-2012 08:43 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Let's take the home meetings for example. If you are one who meets with a local church, it's okay to invite non-local church Christians to your home meeting. For the invite to be reciprocated, no. For a local church Christian to go to a non-local church home meeting, that is unfathomable. That has been called meeting illegitimately.

Now to reach those born and raised in the local church, just accept the fact many may meet there because of tradition. Just as if they were a Baptist or a Catholic, they're used to certain practices, doctrines, etc and anything else would just take them out of their comfort zone. There's a certain structure for someone raised in the local churches where all your social relationships are driven by the local church culture.

This varies by locality. When I was in Odessa I went to a breakfast for local christians in a town near Odessa every Saturday. I also visited regularly with Christian groups in other cities. I also did this in Houston, but was advised to keep it quiet and not discuss it in the meetings. The only city I did not meet with other Christians was in Irving, and that was because I was working 16 hours a day on the meeting hall, six days a week.

11-19-2012 04:12 AM

aron

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

If you remember, will you pray for my friend's deliverence from Meth? His name is James. His sister Yvonne, is JUST starting to return to Jesus too and is battling her messy life. They /We ALL could use some uplifting prayer
to be drawn closer to EL-SHADDAI, our Creator, our Heavenly Father, our SAVIOR & DELIVERER, our KING of kings and LORD of lords.

Thanks amigos!

Blessings to you all,
Carol G

Amen, sister Carol G! Blessings to you all in Christ Jesus!

11-18-2012 09:23 PM

TLFisher

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I asked the question, because, my fellowship with members were primarily with second and third generation LRC'rs.

I hear what you're saying. It's really a fine line. If they have no concerns and no issues, I wouldn't want to say anything to stumble them nor to damage any relationships. If there are concerns, they have a spirit. They have a conscience. We only have faith the Lord will lead them on.
My question lies here, can these 2nd and third generations LRC's have fellowship apart from "the ministry"?
Is the HWFMR a requisite for fellowship to happen?

11-18-2012 07:27 PM

NeitherFirstnorLast

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Now to reach those born and raised in the local church, just accept the fact many may meet there because of tradition. Just as if they were a Baptist or a Catholic, they're used to certain practices, doctrines, etc and anything else would just take them out of their comfort zone. There's a certain structure for someone raised in the local churches where all your social relationships are driven by the local church culture.

I believe you're right Terry, and this being so, I am more and more convinced that there is nothing that can be done by us to awaken these ones to the Truth. In fact, I have honestly acknowledged myself, that "there but for the Grace of God go I." And I suppose therein lies the key.

I asked the question, because, my fellowship with members were primarily with second and third generation LRC'rs. I have an honest reason for wanting to find a way to reach them. But this website, valuable as it is, can't do it... they wouldn't dare come here, unless, of course, the process of questioning had already well begun in them. I tried bringing up the past history of the LC with some of them, and they wouldn't discuss at all what they knew - or even admit they knew anything, other than to say "the Lord has moved on, so should we"... or: "Does it matter what Lee was like? Even Balaam's donkey was able to speak for God" - In other words, yes, Lee was a Jack-Ass, but who cares?

Only God can restore sight to the blind, restore hearing to the deaf, and get the lame to walk. Perhaps - no - not perhaps - I definitely need to pray more for Him to soften the hearts of the brothers and sisters I've left behind.

Lord, I want to raise these ones up to you - the friends I have left behind but still love with Your Love, Lord. Especially, I want to lift up D to you. Lord, this brother prayed with me and wept with me and shared his heart with me. Lord, this brother even still contacts me, though he won't share anything personal... Lord, keep his heart soft and open. Give him the courage and conviction to ask the questions, to seek Your Holy and perfect will, and bless him Lord.. with Your Truth. In Jesus Holy name I pray...

Will you pray with me saints? For ninety days. For those we've left behind... and even for those in charge of LSM; that they might be given a heart of repentance... that the Lord might bless them too.

In Christ,

Ray

11-18-2012 05:06 PM

TLFisher

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

In Lee's church, there is no such thing as fellowship with other Christians (unless they come to the LC).

My question: HOW can we reach those born and raised LSM kids?

11-17-2012 02:51 PM

countmeworthy

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

In a nutshell -- Does anyone out there realize that the best parents in the Recovery always tried to shield their children from the Recovery itself!

that the Recovery itself was almost more dangerous than the world......

Just the other day, my wife was telling me about a couple she knew who always broke the training rules for their kids sake.

One of the best ways to help our children is to break down the walls surrounding the Recovery, and to connect them with the greater body of Christ.

Great Post!
Aside from Phillip Lee, who was not the model Lee poster child, how many of his 8-9 kids were actively involved in the LRC? Anyone know?

While we in the LR in the 70s, did not go to movies or watch TV, those of us in San Diego on occasion went to Disneyland in small groups.

I know for a fact, when elders went on family vacations, they took their kids to movies and watched wholesome family shows on TV in their hotel rooms.

Only very select LCRs knew this.
Only one original "elder" couple in San Diego have remained loyal to the LRC, but their kids are not in the LRC...they are married with children...have their own lives.

I think when the LC elevated Lee and his ministry above GOD and His WORD, not only did God's Presence leave, but I think deep down, everyone knew they could not meet Lee's standards.

As for the LR/LC kids and how to help them???

If they have never gone to a church service, yes, take them to a church service, even a Catholic mass. Have them read a bible other than the RcV.

The "world" is all around us....talk to them about morals, "relationships" and sex counseling. I have never married or have kids of my own but have counseled my nephew and nieces when they entered puberty as they had questions.

I have no qualm with calling upon the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH a pure heart, but not the old LC "O Lord Jeeeesus".

Parents, friends, loved ones and all true followers of Christ have a responsibility to point all children LR or not to CHRIST.

We do it through prayer and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.

--------------------------------------

As a side note, I have been "leading" Bible studies to my Christian "worldly" friends, one who struggles with METH...can't kick the addiction, another with "self indulgence"...I will not bother to explain THAT struggle.

Anyway, my little motley group of "worldly" Christians who were once committed to the Lord (never LCrs btw), gather every week at one of my friends house for prayer and bible study. :-D

We have a good time and while the change in their lives is slow, the fact they love coming together weekly to hear the Word if God speaks volume. To God be the Glory.

What makes it "special", is I am not an outsider. I am their life long friend. (One of the group is my childhood friend, others are her adult kids, my friend's mother..and her father when he was still living. My friend's brother...who is ministering to his wife and kids slowly but surely and is my "sidekick" when he shows up for bible study. When we are not in bible study, they squabble and then vent on me.

I do not lecture. Sometimes I get involved indirectly with their squabbles. Other times I simply listen and sometimes I make them FOCUS!!!!! ....on CHRIST.

After the venting, I always try to lead them or the person in prayer.

Pretty cool huh? If you remember, will you pray for my friend's deliverence from Meth? His name is James. His sister Yvonne, is JUST starting to return to Jesus too and is battling her messy life. They /We ALL could use some uplifting prayer
to be drawn closer to EL-SHADDAI, our Creator, our Heavenly Father, our SAVIOR & DELIVERER, our KING of kings and LORD of lords.

Thanks amigos!

Blessings to you all,
Carol G

11-17-2012 06:32 AM

Ohio

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

My purpose in mentioning home school was not to cast aspersion on that practice - but to point out that one of LSM's characteristics in dealing with their children is isolationism ...

I think all good parents attempt to "isolate" their children from the evils of this age, as the Lord taught us to pray, "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

One of the pernicious ways of exclusive systems such as Lee's is to identify outside Christians -- genuine, bona fide, blood-washed, born-again evangelical brothers and sisters -- as the enemy. Oh sure, they sometimes used phrases such as "love them, but hate the system," but they purposely blur the lines. On the other hand, I also heard WL talk about "missiles" and "bombs," in the form of high truth tracts, which were to be launched at poor, poor Christianity. Who was the target? Not some nebulous mist called "system," but the very people who composed Christianity -- our very own brothers and sisters.

In a nutshell -- those in the Recovery really don't know who their enemy is! In the city I once migrated to in order to help start a new church, brothers sued brothers in court over possession of the meeting hall, thinking they were being loyal to the ministry of Witness Lee! What does that tell you?

In such a context, what is the result on our children? Does anyone out there realize that the best parents in the Recovery always tried to shield their children from the Recovery itself! They knew that the Recovery itself was almost more dangerous than the world! How does one teach his kids that we are the fulfillment of Philadelphia, the church of brotherly love, yet have the children witness abuse, in-fighting, back-biting, public ridiculing, lawsuits, etc. It is so true that children pay attention more to what you do, than to what you say.

Just the other day, my wife was telling me about a couple she knew who always broke the training rules for their kids sake. While in Anaheim for the trainings, trainees were not allowed to go to Disneyland, the beach, shopping, sight-seeing, play sports, etc. yet they could not keep these rules and be good parents. WL and the trainers loved to make rules that only they could keep. My dear wife now regrets how often she was such a loyal "rule-keeper" at the expense of her children. Me too.

One of the best ways to help our children is to break down the walls surrounding the Recovery, and to connect them with the greater body of Christ. This will help deliver them from arrogant pride, thinking they have something they do not, and thinking that others have nothing which they really do.

11-17-2012 12:27 AM

NeitherFirstnorLast

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

My point is, a culture was created by Lee - a very unique culture that purposely set itself apart from Christianity and all other Christians. What I want to explore in this thread, is what has that done to the children raised in that culture?

Thank you all for your input, but if I may I want to make this statement above the purpose of this thread. I think this requires a taking a different view of the movement we've left (or remained in, for those who visit here and still remain). My purpose in mentioning home school was not to cast aspersion on that practice - but to point out that one of LSM's characteristics in dealing with their children is isolationism - Isolating their children from non-members, in order to avoid possible "contamination" (not a word they might use - but the word does well convey their idea, I think). I believe this was even mentioned here on another thread, where someone shared that a sister had asked him if he wasn't worried about his kids being influenced by Christianity when he sent them to a Baptist school.

My real motivation in wanting to explore this, is to try to work together to figure out if we even can reach the generation of people who were raised from birth in LSM-loyal homes. People who grew up with a skewed view of Christianity - colored by all the slander cast at all of it by Lee. How can these ones be reached if, when they look outside their 'Local Church' for fellowship, they see a kind of worship or service or prayer or structure that looks NOTHING like what they've be raised to view as the only way? Something they've been raised to view as corrupt.

It's been said here that LSM has become just another denomination... but that doesn't do the true situation justice at all. Let me give you a few "fer-instances":

Ferinstance 1: Here in Three Hills, we have a Ministerial. All the Pastors in town, and the Priests (we have Catholics and Anglicans here as well as non-denominational Evangelical churches, Baptists, United church adherents, etc.) get together and have fellowship. These people all work together. Do they have differences in doctrine? Undoubtedly they do - but that doesn't hinder their fellowship or their ability to pray together and work together. In fact, we had a large inter-church service for the town's hundredth anniversary, and four of the Pastors worked together through the service, and let a visiting Anglican Bishop deliver the sermon (as it was also the local Anglican churches 100th anniversary, and the Pastors and Priests in town wanted to honor that).

Ferinstance 2: Our local Prairie Bible College takes students of ALL denoms (or non-denoms) and trains them up. Yes, all from local congregations and well beyond... there is no 'denom' restrictions. Nor is there extensive proselytizing to convert any student to any particular doctrine. "In the essentials, unity - in the non essentials, liberty." That said, all students have to take introductory Bible classes (I took one) - and we are all given the opportunity to explore Scripture ourselves. You might guess that I was prone to writing long essays rather than short answers on many of my tests - and I differed with authors and teachers from time to time in my interpretations, and was never penalized for it, so long as my exposition was thorough.

Final Ferinstance: At our church - the Alliance church in town - we have families who have children who go to other churches. This isn't frowned upon, nor does it cause distress. If the children of members grow up and choose to go to a church a few blocks down the street - well, if they are being read the Word of God and if they are growing in their faith, then Praise the Lord - He has a place for them! This is common here. My wife attends inter-church Bible studies, and we fellowship with other Christians. We have, I believe, a Normal Christian Church Life (copyright Watchman Nee).

Not so in Lee's church.

In Lee's church, there is no such thing as fellowship with other Christians (unless they come to the LC). There is no such thing as it being ok to have a different doctrine or understanding from the interpretation provided by Lee - EVEN in the non-essentials. Nor is it ever ok to go to "another church", and certainly not to ever listen to someone who calls himself a Pastor. That's just "Nicolaitian" and an abomination to God, so they might say. Now, you may not hear this expounded in a meeting, but I know whenever I tried to share something I heard and appreciated from outside of LSM, it wasn't generally received well. There were many things I sent and wrote to the brother I was closest to in the church - the very one who introduced me - that he never read at all (I found this out only a couple of years later). When I asked him about it, he confessed that he wouldn't read any of those things because they didn't "give him life". They "might have some life, but there's so much leaven." He was born in the LC.

LSM is not a denomination: While denominational walls are coming down around the globe - and Christians of many different walks are fellowshipping together - LSM's walls are being built higher, and all fo rthe purpose keeping their people in, rather than to keep others out.

Okay, that's too long a post. My question: HOW can we reach those born and raised LSM kids?

11-16-2012 09:16 PM

MacDuff

Re: What about the Children?

I was brought up mostly in a Catholic school. Back in the 50’s. Taught me what it was supposed to teach me. For a kid that age. From what I understand, it was far superior to the public school at the time. I was also taught by my parents. There was no division between school (public or private) and home as there is today. We all knew each other.

Then I went into the Armed Services, and after that to college. What I learned as a child prepared me somewhat for the experience of both, but certainly not entirely. My education continues to the present day. I wasn’t quite prepared, even though I’ve been on other forums, for the experience of and what I’ve learned from this forum.

I see that the public schools here in this big city are trying to force modern parents into that situation that existed when I was a kid, to the point of overreaction as per usual. Even giving the parents homework to do. Among my younger married friends with children, they tend to ignore the overreaction. And for the die hards in the public school system who try to use banishment of the children from school to force the parents to their way of thinking, here it’s possible to just change public schools and there’s a slew of private schools becoming ever more popular, as well as home schooling for those who would rather.

I understand there’s a lawsuit underway by someone who kept records. Looks like the public school system is going to lose more money to a lawsuit. And the public school system will have to charge the poor parents who are poor even more money just to keep up. And don’t even get me started on the cost of college these days. America is well on the way to returning to illiteracy and ignorance. Which is probably what the powers that be want. The ignorant are easier to steer.

You might also consider that at a certain age, children rebel. Usually around high school and into college. They continue to question everything, including all they have previously been taught. And they try things, sometimes things they shouldn’t. Some survive the experience, some don’t. It’s a fact of nature and a fact of life. That’s why it’s very important to have a very good relationship with one’s children. So that when that time comes they remember. They still have friends in their own family, hopefully including their own parents.

We didn’t home school our kids. The idea wasn’t there at the time. But we were involved in every facet of our children’s life. Not overwhelmingly so. Because part of that involvement included trust. They rarely betrayed that trust, and when they did, it was in minor matters. Expressing disappointment regarding the betrayal was more sufficient than any other form of punishment. I am thankful that my children survived. I know or know about too many who didn’t.

MacDuff

11-16-2012 07:29 PM

TLFisher

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Good evening all,

What about the Children?

I mentioned in another post that I had heard about LSM's "lost generation" - I'd heard about it when I was a member, from other members. A turmoil that caused a generation of LC kids to leave Lee's church. I heard those members talk about how it caused them to change direction - to invest more in their own children... and I saw that too. In my "locality", many LC kids were homeschooled. Their families only associated with other LC families - you know how the LC is; it's a whole way of life. In some ways, this can look like a beautiful picture of what parenting and shepherding is supposed to be... but is it?

What turmoil lost the generation? When did the "New Way" occur? Could the two be related? What was it really like back in the 'glory days', when there was no Recovery Version, when there were credits in the hymnals for the authors of the hymn, when administration was truly local, when the sharing was from the Bible, and not from footnotes and life studies and HWMRs?

I think you have several different generations to point to. Ohio brought up one. Then there was the generation I didentify with. Those of the 84-88. Of course how Southern California was affected is much different than Seattle with Bill Freeman when he left Seattle, WA for Scottsdale, AZ. Many young people I knew were from families in Anaheim who were impacted by the Phillip Lee issue. You were either/or situation. If you were for Witness Lee, Phillip was considered a non-issue. If Phillip Lee was an issue to you, you were out.
Keep in mind these ones I knew were not lost to the World, just lost membership to LSM localities. They have gone on with the Lord, but in different places. My personal experience when I have met with local churches from 1993-on there were very few from my generation. Brothers and sisters are either older or a generation younger. When I lived in corporate living, I was in my mid-twenties while most of the other brothers were 6-7 years younger.
As to the question about the New Way, it began in Taipei. Being from Southern California, the practice of the New Way did not hit until early 1986. Part of which involved a door knocking flow.
If you ask if the two are related, I cannot say directly, but indirectly. It wasn;t the New Way itself. For many door knocking was not the problem, but the attitude how door knocking was to be exercised.

11-16-2012 08:56 AM

OBW

Re: What about the Children?

Since we have been through a few discussions about what went wrong with the LRC that affected the young people, it is becoming clear that there is no single cause. It was a collection of events, positions, "ways," etc., that either lost their interest or drove them away.

We discussed some of the very controlling things, but discovered that even though there was control everywhere, it was quite varied as to how it was wielded. We talked about the mixed focus — it is not Christ, but Christ and the church with too much of the focus being on the church and only a better vocabulary surrounding Christ. We haven't talked much about how, even after growing up in the LRC environment, the LRC is mostly irrelevant to the young ones. PSRP'ing does not deal with peer pressure, hormones, or even the very clear words that liberal teachers can use to sway young minds.

As for home schooling, it is a mixed bag. My sister home schools her kids, but mostly because the local school really is bad. But home schooling does not prepare them for meeting the real world. Eventually they need to face evolution, friends who smoke pot, etc. When the first time they even hear the real scoop on evolution (or some other thing) is in college, they will become too aware of how unprepared they are. And the preparedness of the "opponent" is hard to pass off as just Satan. They will either run screaming from the confrontation, or begin to face the new challenge — hopefully with enough will to stand firm as they reassess their reasons.

But this is a problem throughout Christianity. We do not prepare our children very well for dealing with the world. Instead, we prepare them for staying isolated from the world. A recent comment elsewhere on being "in the world but not of it" noted that we were specifically left in the world. Those who try to create isolation from the world in some way are actually avoiding what we are charged to do — be salt and light. You can't be a light to the world from the other side of a dense hedge. And all the salt in salt boxes in the fallout bunker is useless to salting the world outside.

11-16-2012 05:57 AM

ABrotherinFaith

Re: What about the Children?

I suppose I'm part of that lost generation as in my locality there are only about 3 people still meeting out of at least 15-20 I grew up with. Despite having been steeped in the terminology I don't speak it very well. As has been pointed out here numerous times, there are simpler, clearer ways of saying things.

I was never homeschooled. I went to one training in Anaheim (more as an excuse to go to California than anything as I spent most of the time gawking at people on Venice beach). Since then (the mid 90s) I've been to half a handful of training meetings and a couple three conferences...What I remember most about being a kid in the LC is the camps where people would burn things and then come away burning for the Lord. On Sunday they would speak about how they want the environment of the camp to last forever and then one person would invariably get up and share about how we can't live camp to camp, conference to conference, riding the "high" till the next one...well, that seems to have become a la mode...every couple of months there is a mini-confernece, a blending conference, an uptodatespeaking conference, a conference, a regional conference and then a training...

Now as an adult suddenly I see that the sharing in the meetings is perhaps 75-80% reading straight from the morning revival and 15 % saying something about it...the other 5% or so is some soul who's spent time in the Word and has something to show for it, has been touched and searched and found the Lord in the Word...it's becoming rarer and rarer.

(lurkers, you can say I cannot prove this by Lee's writing - but the spirit of what was written is surely there and this interpretation is taken by many within the movement).

I can't comment about other places, but I've never, not even in my darkest hour of cynicism, felt that that was taught or encouraged where I meet. There are a few who try to say that from time to time, but the responsible ones are pretty good about clearing the matter up...what I do know, is that there is a pervasive belief that the LC is better. And that turns my stomach.

11-16-2012 05:53 AM

Ohio

Re: What about the Children?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

What about the Children?

I mentioned in another post that I had heard about LSM's "lost generation" - I'd heard about it when I was a member, from other members. A turmoil that caused a generation of LC kids to leave Lee's church.

What turmoil lost the generation? When did the "New Way" occur? Could the two be related? What was it really like back in the 'glory days'?

Most would consider the 'glory days' to be back in Elden Hall in Los Angeles back in the 60's. That is the story Lee always told, yet others have stated that things dried up as Lee took over. I believe most of the blessing of those early days in the Recovery was due to the spillover from the real outpouring of the Spirit during the days of the "Jesus People" movement. Thousands of young people left their parents archaic denominations to gather in contemporary congregations springing up every where.

The first major storm was "Super Storm Max" which occurred in the late 70's, and many, many saints and their children left.

The "New Way" began in Taipei in late '84 - early '85, but it was not until '88 when chaos broke out in Anaheim and other parts of the country. It took a little time for many Recovery leaders to truly ascertain the underlying nature of "new way" -- on paper it was all about the gospel, but beneath the surface it was all about a power grab. Philip Lee was the chief enforcer "thug" used by WL to enact change. PL was an immoral and abusive character who hurt many.

As in an ugly divorce, the children are the ones who suffer most, and that they did. Hundreds of saints left with their children, and among those who stayed, many of those children were lost too.

11-15-2012 09:57 PM

NeitherFirstnorLast

What about the Children?

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