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| 03-29-2024 06:18 AM | ||
| R2D2 |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Quote:
"Who then is Paul (present day or not), and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth anything, neither is he that watereth; BUT GOD THAT GIVETH THE INCREASE..." (1 Corinthians 3: 5-8) Seems to me that the "responsibility for success" lies in God's hands (or his watering-can). But hey... If a bunch of guys are gonna 'swear an oath (for what else is it?) to follow Apollos and to follow Paul, et cetera.." ...then let them have at it. [This message has been translated into human language that you earthlings may understand it] ...beep..tweet...beep.. |
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| 03-18-2024 03:20 AM | ||
| Unregistered |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Quote:
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| 03-17-2024 11:14 AM | ||
| OBW |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee These snippets jumped out at me. I don't think I need to say much about them. Quote:
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| 03-15-2024 06:51 AM | ||
| Unregistered |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee There is a clear difference between Jesus and those that follow Him, and those whose intentions are to build their kingdoms here on earth. We have few examples in scriptures about how Jesus dealt with people who tried to make him king, even by force and how He refused to give in and understood His calling. He fled, he withdrew! On the other side we have Lee and company, who decided in the late 80’s to usher in the king Lee in the Lords Recovery, and instead of doing what Jesus did, Lee took the bait and sat up into the sit that’s not his. To this day, he is reigning supreme over many people who refuse to put Christ as the head, and will do anything to make sure king Lee is reigning. I read here awhile back that they still write books in his name as if that’s a true thing. His practices and personal revelations supersede the plain scriptures, as I have experienced that myself. Now, which is the Godly and humble way of a true servant of Christ? It’s only by God one will see the hypocrisy and flee this group. “Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.” John 6:15 |
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| 12-29-2023 05:48 AM | ||
| Ohio |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Quote:
In the US during the mid 70’s was another so-called “rebellion” or “storm” which set the stage for the late 80’s, called the “Max Rebellion,” named after Lee’s Lieutenant Max Rapoport. Beginning as an charismatic Evangelist, Lee sent him out to “shake up” the LC’s in order to solidify control of the movement. Things went awry when Max developed his own following among the LC’s, with spirited infighting among local leaders and whole LC’s. Lee successfully threw Max under the bus, expelling him in shame, but with WL taking no responsibility himself, and came out looking “pure as the driven snow.” Afterwards some of the Max lieutenants publicly and tearfully (albeit ignorantly) repented and then took the further step of proclaiming wholehearted public allegiance and unquestioned support for WL, our present day “Apostle Paul.” This set the stage, by eliminating almost all remaining discernment among those who stayed loyal to the “vision of Christ and the church,” for the subsequent total LSM takeover during the “New Way” which began in 1985 in Taipei. WL was a master at “never letting any crisis go to waste.” |
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| 12-28-2023 07:40 AM | ||
| ACuriousFellow |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee It should be noted that this grand fear of "germs" and "rebellion" arose in the 1980s, which was a time in the history of The Lord's Recovery where a heavy emphasis was placed on a centralized publication source for all of the Local Churches in The Lord's Recovery for the sake of conformity. Several concerns arose from the dissonance that occurred between the concepts publicly touted in The Lord's Recovery in which hierarchy and leadership were denounced and the presence and pressure of Living Stream Ministry, a publishing company established by Lee and headed by his son, Phillip Lee. The dogmatic approach to disseminating and reinforcing Lee's teachings within the Local Churches disturbed many, including those like Steve Isitt and John Ingalls who personally felt like they owed much of their spiritual growth to Witness Lee. Steve Isitt authored several books related to these matters and the concerns that arose among the churches. These include: 1. The Rosemead Rebellion 2. In the Wake of the New Way: The Costly Movement of a Man and a Ministry 3. Hiding History in the Nee and Lee Eras of The Lord's Recovery John Ingalls also wrote on these matters, authoring a fairly well-known book in this forum: Speaking the Truth in Love. You can see the heartache and conflict within the accounts of both of these brothers. It is no secret that many of us here feel that Lee was rotten from the very start, but these brothers make it clear that they gained much light and life with their brothers and sisters at the beginning of this movement. It is telling that ones such as these who gave Lee all the benefit of the doubt still found themselves heartbroken and disillusioned by the slow death they were witnessing in the churches of The Lord's Recovery and the authoritarianism that arose within the ranks of its leadership, all of it centered within their publishing powerhouse that is still in operation today controlling all the official publications of The Lord's Recovery under their now decades-old "One Publication" mandate. |
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| 12-28-2023 07:18 AM | ||
| ACuriousFellow |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee A copy of the letter's text and Lee’s response (included below) can be found in one of the “Elders’ Training” books published by Living Stream Ministry. ... April 11, 1986 The Brothers attending the February 1986 Elders’ Training Dear Brothers: Thank you for your letter dated February 21, 1986 with the list of signatures. I feel very sorry that I could not have time to acknowledge, with appreciation, what you have expressed in your letter and through your signatures until now. Being one with the ministry is a crucial matter, and its effects are exceedingly serious. Its proper definition is not to follow any man, any doctrine or any movement, but is to be one with the Lord’s move today according to the Lord’s vision, without any intrinsic element of exalting any person or promoting any work. May the Lord be merciful and gracious to us, that this action would not be misunderstood or misapplied by anyone in a way that would give the enemy Satan ground for utilization, thus frustrating the Lord’s move today, but rather that this action could be properly used by the Lord to swallow up all the germs of discord which have been existing, even among us, for quite a time in the past. May the Lord remember your kind wishes for me and bless your labors in Him. Your brother in Christ, Witness Lee ... (Elders’ Training Book 8: The Life Pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, from the Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1986, Volume 1, Chapter 10: Spreading the Gospel, pp. 299-301, published by Living Stream Ministry) |
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| 12-28-2023 07:06 AM | ||
| Ohio |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Quote:
The secondary purpose of the letter was to identify all "non-compliants." Lee, Philips, and Graver ramped up their manipulative shaming apparatus in order to obtain 100% compliance, which sent a strong message to the "faithful" around the globe. Those who initially resisted, got "worked on" day by day. Remember how Lee mischaracterized Barnabas for not submitting to Paul over taking Mark on their 2nd missionary journey? (Acts 15.35-41) Never in church history was Barnabas treated so unfavorably. Clearly the motive behind the letter was unquestioned submission to WL,BP, RG, and the other Blindeds. Those who held out, eventually were branded "opposers" and worse. Eventually these men of God were expelled as "leprous conspirators." Fortunately for us, and the sake of the truth, ones like John Ingalls wrote his honest account of events, Speaking The Truth In Love. |
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| 12-27-2023 10:08 PM | ||
| Nell |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Agreement to follow Witness Lee in the New Way Dear Brother Lee, After hearing your fellowship in this elders’ training, we all agree to have a new start in the Lord’s recovery. For this, we all agree to be in one accord and to carry out this new move of the Lord solely through prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth. We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord’s ministry and the one wise master builder among us. We further agree to practice the church life in our locality absolutely in a new way: to build the church in, through, and based upon home meetings; to lead every member to get used to functioning without any idea to depend on any giant speakers; to teach all the saints to know the basic truths in an educational way that they may teach others for the spreading of the truth; to build up the saints in the growth in life that they may minister life to others, shepherd each other, and take care of the backsliding ones; to lead all the saints to preach the gospel in every possible way; to avoid leadership as much as possible; and to have home gatherings for nurturing the saints in life; and big meetings for educating the saints in truths. We agree that all the preceding points are the clear and definite teaching of the Bible according to God’s New Testament economy. Finally, we agree that the success of this new move is our responsibility and will rise up to labor and endeavor with our whole being, looking to the Lord for His mercy and grace that we would be faithful to the end. Your brothers for the Lord’s recovery, (signature of elders) |
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| 03-08-2019 02:35 AM | ||
| aron |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Quote:
I resort to scorn and sarcasm. I like humour but when tinged with bitterness it's perhaps unpleasant to read. Thanks to all for bearing along, and I extend my apologies for being caustic at times, and projecting unresolved shame and anger toward others. The NT epistle says that star differs from star in glory, and seems like that was okay with the apostle. There are notable differences, or distinctions, in appearance, disposition and function. "He counteth up the number of stars, he calleth them all by name, great is our Lord" ~Psa 147:4 If God numbers and calls each by name, can't we suppose that the distinctions of each are worth noting? If so to God, why not also to us? Why the insistence on bland homogeneity? |
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| 03-07-2019 09:52 PM | ||
| Trapped |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Quote:
I don't want to get away from the OP of this thread, but "blending" is one of my big pet peeves. "God has blended the body together" is not about "blending away the differences".....it's about care for the members around us. A human body where all the different and distinct members' differences were blended away would be GROTESQUE and non-functional. The other verse used to support the "blending away the differences" is 1 Cor. 10:17 about we being many are one bread, but this is again ludicrous. There is no recipe in the world that states "we have to put the grains in the blender so they will be identical to each other". This is about our unity and oneness, NOT our complete lack of distinction from each other. No wonder LCers who leave don't even know who they are sometimes. |
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| 03-07-2019 08:32 PM | ||
| Cal |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Just look at the world around you and see the variety. God is obviously a God of variety. He went to the trouble of making each snowflake different, each fingerprint different and each personality different. Why do that just to "blend" us all together? Especially to all be like Witness Lee, of all people! Think about that. Eternity where everyone is just like Witness Lee!  Don't sound like heaven to me!Speaking of words we hate, how about "blend?" Blend is bland. Blend is blah. Blend is blech. God's none of those things. He likes variety. "We repudiate all differences." What a retarded mentality! I'll stop. This is about the time I start thinking about using colorful language. |
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| 03-07-2019 03:58 PM | ||
| aron |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Quote:
WL's defenders may say I'm picking on his terms, and that he wasn't a native English speaker - so what if he used the word "giant" to indicate relative size or stature or advancement or capacity? I mean, really! Right? First of all, those who are "giants" in this age will be "dwarves" in the next, whatever your terminology. That's basic Christian teaching. And some native English speakers should have pulled him aside and discreetly counseled him on his unfortunate choice of words, and the particular biblical associations with the word "giant". The "spiritual giants" in the OT were aka "Nephilim". Any fundamentalist would know this. And we were nothing if not that, in the LC... Earths Earliest Ages and all that. Oh, but I forget, mustn't let The Apostle lose face. He gets the glory, we get the shame. Rule #1: WL is always right. So, "giants" it was. Then when WL passed, his closest acolytes told us from the dias that now "the age of spiritual giants is over". And not a minute too soon, I'd add. |
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| 03-07-2019 01:49 PM | ||
| Ohio |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Quote:
 Too Funny You hit it when you said that "differences" were based on the "subjective whims of the Deputy God." Exactly! This Pledge is all about bringing every worker, every member, and every church under LSM's control. Yeah but Lee said, "we are so free." And Lee said that he can't even "control a mosquito." Lee wanted control because he was a real glory seeker. He loved the glory of men. That's why he put all others down. I remember this one story years ago. Brother LC was the Cleveland young people's leader at some Anaheim training, and he coordinated the saints for the testing time to review the previous message. Great test, great review. It was exciting, glorious, the whole place was rocking. Thousands of saints. Everyone ought to be happy right? Wrong! After the meeting TC took LC over to the corner and reamed him out. Why would he do that? Because TC knew that he would get it from WL the next day. Why wasn't WL happy about that great test? Because Anaheim got stood up by Cleveland. It was a competition. Cleveland, unknowingly, was supposed to let Anaheim win, so that WL's perfecting skills would not be shamed by TC's. It was all about who got the glory. |
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| 03-07-2019 12:58 PM | ||
| aron |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee There are so many things wrong with this letter. Start with the fact that it even exists. But let's delineate. 1. "all differences", as in "We repudiate all differences" - what does that mean? That we all have to dye our hair the same color? What differences fall under "all" and what do not? Last time I checked, "all" was a pretty comprehensive word. Does the angel Michael have any difference whatsoever from Gabriel? If none, how then are they called by different names? Do we really think that no one could tell them apart? Do we really think the angels are all "absolutely identical, with no differences whatsoever", per the RecV footnotes? John doesn't give us this us this impression in his revelation from Patmos. He clearly sees differences. As in heaven, so on earth - if the citizens of heaven have differences, then how can we not have them? "Star differs from star in glory". Shouldn't we be able to differ? Paul was minister to the uncircumcision, Peter to the circumcision - who gets to say if this is a difference that makes a difference, or not? Or is it just "differences in purpose"? Again, who defines purpose? Or differences in language used? Who then defines terminology? It's all about control. The so-called wise master builder (WMB) gets to determine who is "different" and who is not. It's entirely based on the subjective whims of the Deputy God. The WMB gets to decide if your differences are noteworthy or not. Good luck. Hopefully he doesn't notice you. Try to blend in, okay? Don't stick out. You might be called "different". What if the 12 foundation stones of the New Jerusalem repudiated all differences? They might as well be cinder blocks. 2. "Identical", as in "be identical". See above. Completely absurd. Do you think the Peruvians are identical with the Turks? Are they supposed to be? Why then does scripture speak of "every tribe and tongue and nation" if they are all amalgamated into some homogenous, bland ministry smoothie? Who wants to live thus? Nobody but WL and his deluded few. Did Jesus die for our redemption, then rise for us to live, merely for us to act like unwitted robots? Identical? Really? This is so clearly not divine! 3. "Giants". Doesn't WL realize how awful this word is, spiritually and biblically? Did he not read the Bible? Then why use it thus? A. The Giants devoured people. Awful. B. If you presume to be "great", however you use your terms, you are the "least". This is Spirituality 101 as taught by Jesus and repeated and clearly practiced in the NT and after. Those who are "great" in this age are not so great on the other side. Whether they call themselves "giants" or some other term is beside the presumption of the self-anointing - but that they call themselves "giants" is just obtuse. WL often used clunky terminology. "Spiritual giants" is one of his worst. And the signees used it, because he used it. Did nobody stir uneasily when such terms were tossed about so loosely, and such presumptions were made so blandly? I would. |
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| 03-07-2019 12:23 PM | ||
| diakonos |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Thank you Ohio for your help. To be more clear to anyone else visiting this page, I am posting the entire text of the Pledge of allegiance letter below: Agreement to follow Witness Lee in the New Way Dear Brother Lee, After hearing your fellowship in this elders’ training, we all agree to have a new start in the Lord’s recovery. For this, we all agree to be in one accord and to carry out this new move of the Lord solely through prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth. We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord’s ministry and the one wise master builder among us. We further agree to practice the church life in our locality absolutely in a new way: to build the church in, through, and based upon home meetings; to lead every member to get used to functioning without any idea to depend on any giant speakers; to teach all the saints to know the basic truths in an educational way that they may teach others for the spreading of the truth; to build up the saints in the growth in life that they may minister life to others, shepherd each other, and take care of the backsliding ones; to lead all the saints to preach the gospel in every possible way; to avoid leadership as much as possible; and to have home gatherings for nurturing the saints in life; and big meetings for educating the saints in truths. We agree that all the preceding points are the clear and definite teaching of the Bible according to God’s New Testament economy. Finally, we agree that the success of this new move is our responsibility and will rise up to labor and endeavor with our whole being, looking to the Lord for His mercy and grace that we would be faithful to the end. Your brothers for the Lord’s recovery, (signature of elders) |
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| 03-04-2019 03:54 PM | ||
| Ohio |
Re: Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Quote:
Here is a letter from an elder in Toronto who initially signed that Pledge, and then retracted his signature. Many others have regretted that they allowed themselves to be coerced into signing that Pledge. |
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| 03-04-2019 05:51 AM | ||
| diakonos |
Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee Hi all, This is my first post here. I appreciate all of the different perspectives and finding out the history and reasons behind much of what is done in the "church life". I would like to ask for anyone that may have the original signed copy of the Pledge of Allegiance Letter of 1986; if you could send to me I would be grateful. I am pretty sure the elders in my locality signed that letter and I would like to have it, if I ever engage them in a discussion of the "Lord's recovery". Thank you, |
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