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01-25-2009 06:39 PM

countmeworthy

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

This "inoculation" illogically explains why brothers who have had years of fellowship together would abruptly cease overnight. A brother would cross a street in order to avoid "contamination".
Terry

I will never forget a brother in my locality left the LC. He 'knew' me.. or knew who I was at least. I don't think I was ever a pushy person..but in any case, one day at the college, we saw each other at a distance on the same sidewalk. He was walking towards me & I towards him for that was the direction each of us was going.

Guess what he did ? Yeppers..he crossed the street to avoid me.

I hope he's doing well whereever he is.

Also.....the questions raised by Hope

Quote:

How can anyone be so narrow minded to think God has only one flow or work or ministry in any time period?

and comments made by Ohio

Quote:

We were all held in a "cage of fear." Open the door and many would escape. Many of us would not dream of leaving, after hearing so many stories of tragedy befalling those who departed, but if a well-respected leader would depart, then others would dare to follow

...remind me of my upbringing in the RCC. We were told it was the 'one true church'. We were instructed back then..not to visit the protestant churches.

I have Catholic friends who read the Bible, and are really saved but because of their 'innoculation' & indoctrination won't leave the RCC. Slowly but surely some of my friends have.

That stronghold of fear to leave a 'church fellowship' is what many Bible teachers call "the Jezebel spirit".

There is a lot of info on the web on the Jezebel spirit if you google it.

01-25-2009 06:08 PM

TLFisher

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

WL focused on the word "inoculation." Any negative speaking from a "concerned" brother was likened to a dangerous "poison" whose "germs" were extremely "contagious." Hence, our great need to be continually on guard, that we would be "inoculated."

It seemed people would up and change overnight. Open the door and many would escape. Many of us would not dream of leaving, after hearing so many stories of tragedy befalling those who departed, but if a well-respected leader would depart, then others would dare to follow.

This is why those who departed were vilified by the ministry -- to stop an impending exodus. Making John Ingalls a "pariah" was the only way to save "the program" from collapse.

This "inoculation" illogically explains why brothers who have had years of fellowship together would abruptly cease overnight. A brother would cross a street in order to avoid "contamination". There is no real cause . These brothers are still the same. However what has changed is their standing based on LSM and Witness Lee's ministry.
Typically brothers who need innoculated against are no longer in one accord with LSM work. Why is there a need to villify brothers? As we've seen with these storms, these brothers didn't change overnight. What changed is the veil was taken away.

Terry

01-23-2009 05:47 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

Wasn't the information control kind of mind boggling. I noticed that many of the saints in "the Lord's Recovery" had a very very linear way of thinking. It was on-off, black-white, right-wrong, good-bad with no gray areas or margins for operating in. Thus, the headquarters did not need much control to be effective in stopping the free flow of information and ideas.

Is it not amazing that a Doug Krieger, a Max Rapoport, a Sal Benoit, a John So etc can go from being a wonderful hope for the Body of Christ to a pariah in one week-end? How can anyone be so narrow minded to think God has only one flow or work or ministry in any time period?

These are very good questions indeed. The answer can be found in the steady diet which we received. I remember the Timothy trainings in the aftermath of the "Mad Max" storm of the late 70's. WL focused on the word "inoculation." Any negative speaking from a "concerned" brother was likened to a dangerous "poison" whose "germs" were extremely "contagious." Hence, our great need to be continually on guard, that we would be "inoculated."

The Recovery had a long history of "storms" and "rebellions." It seemed people would up and change overnight. We were constantly provided warnings to grip us all with fear, lest somehow we too "get sick." We were all held in a "cage of fear." Open the door and many would escape. Many of us would not dream of leaving, after hearing so many stories of tragedy befalling those who departed, but if a well-respected leader would depart, then others would dare to follow.

This is why those who departed were vilified by the ministry -- to stop an impending exodus. Making John Ingalls a "pariah" was the only way to save "the program" from collapse.

01-23-2009 05:19 PM

aron

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

Wasn't the information control kind of mind boggling. I noticed that many of the saints in "the Lord's Recovery" had a very very linear way of thinking. It was on-off, black-white, right-wrong, good-bad with no gray areas or margins for operating in.

... How can anyone be so narrow minded to think God has only one flow or work or ministry?

Just consider ... Be flexible. Be open to more than one interpretation. As amazing as it may seem, It is possible for there to be multiple views and explanations for the various experiences we may have had in the local churches.

The grand irony here, for me, is that Christ actually does quite well in the arena of scepticism and cross-examination; we do not have a "sick-bed God" who must be kept in some special room, apart from the harsh realities of the rough-and-tumble world. In the marketplace of ideas, with its cold light of examination and inspection, the vain things quickly get exposed for their inconsistencies, their phoniness and unrealistic wishful thinking, and the reality of Jesus Christ just shines brighter and brighter. The more you look the better He looks. So we shouldn't be alarmed by those who seem to be skeptics and cynics and scoffers. Many of us were at least somewhat "negative" until one day we gave Christ a try and He came through with flying colors.

For example, the whole "one publication" thing struck me as prima facie absurd; it revealed a land of fearful make-believe where we must be careful lest anyone says or does something wrong and our whole enterprise might crumble. No, I say, Let's throw a party and invite all the scoffers and sceptics and cynics and bad-mouthers and all the lame and the halt and the wierdos. When Christ comes they (we) all get healed.

The idea of trying to protect the "pure" interpretation from the "leaven" of deformed christianity creates the worst leaven of all. As I said somewhere recently, information control is a sure sign you're in desperate trouble; at best you have stasis, with your museum of static dogmas, and at worst you have rigor mortis, buried in a tomb full of dead letters.

01-23-2009 11:16 AM

countmeworthy

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

Wasn't the information control kind of mind boggling. ...Just consider it. Be flexible. Be open to more than one interpretation. As amazing as it may seem, It is possible for there to be multiple views and explanations for the various experiences we may have had in the local churches.

I propose an unofficial moratorium on telling others who may not see things exactly the same to sit down and shut up.
Hope, Don Rutledge

Thank You Hope..for your very well spelled out thoughts. I think this is part of the reason I was interested in seeing the time frames of the posters and lurkers in the LSM/LC.

We all experienced some sort of information control.. Furthermore..most of us here lived in different cities, under different elders with Lee as the pope. The messages came from him and distributed to the global parishes.

Our individual experiences varie greatly. My time there was not that BAD..and yet, I had to flee when I did. I left way before the LC became the LSM and long, long before the 'new way'..before the 80's turmoil, before Lee's passing, before the Blendeds..and yet so much of what people went through, I understand completely.

We have a Great and AWESOME GOD...who will never forsake us or leave us and whose Love will continue to pull us to Himself..and to draw us together in Christ Jesus.

01-23-2009 10:59 AM

Hope

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I have a similar testimony. I was out of contact with this group for a number of years, and when I encountered one of my old friends in the LC, and asked, "What's new?", I was told, and I quote, "Titus Chu rebelled". Same kind of information control pervading the ranks. Everything else is hunky dory, we are all happy here in LC-land, except that bad old Titus Chu up and rebelled on us.

Well, back in the day, that's the same spin I heard about John So and John Ingalls and so forth. When I was deep within the LC "information fold", I got the FPR and that was the source of all my information on the "turmoil". The mere suggestion that there might be another side of the story worth hearing was never broached.

That is one of the reasons I feel rather tolerant, occasionally even magnanimous, toward all the posters on the LC-related forums. Anything is a step up from that kind of information control. Any poster, no matter how zany, is an improvement from the Big Brother Truth Machine. I vastly prefer the "free market" exchange of ideas over the totalitarian "only LSM-approved materials/thoughts/information can be disseminated" reign of error.

Hello everyone,

Wasn't the information control kind of mind boggling. I noticed that many of the saints in "the Lord's Recovery" had a very very linear way of thinking. It was on-off, black-white, right-wrong, good-bad with no gray areas or margins for operating in. Thus, the headquarters did not need much control to be effective in stopping the free flow of information and ideas.

Is it not amazing that a Doug Krieger, a Max Rapoport, a Sal Benoit, a John So etc can go from being a wonderful hope for the Body of Christ to a pariah in one week-end? How can anyone be so narrow minded to think God has only one flow or work or ministry in any time period? Once in Dallas, we were having a Bible Study at the Medical School. Some other medical students were also sponsoring a Bible Study. A brother from the church in Dallas who was a med student and I were together and he proposed a question. The other group was growing in number faster than our group. He wanted to know how that could be since we were who we were. I answered that "maybe they are just better than we are. Maybe we should have a contest and see who wins." What a double take I got back! I realized that I need to restrict my ironic humor and subtlety. My real concern was "why are we comparing ourselves to others."

EASY NOW FORUM, EASY, but I have noticed that some posters who left the local churches still have that narrow linear mindset. This does make life a lot simpler. If we can boil down a world-wide movement to one or two events or personalities, we can easily explain it. We can easily make some kind of sense out of our own experiences.

Another type of thinking in the local church was simple cause and effect. For example, George Whitingtion and others are meeting as some sort of independent church in Denton Texas. George meets WL and appreciates what WL shares on 1 Corinthians chapter 14. George visits church in Waco and asks us to come visit them. Hip, Hip horay. There is now a local church in Denton. Or in the fall of 1989,Don Rutledge invites John Ingalls for a conference in mountains of NC at same time WL is in Cleveland. (Actually, WL is not running his schedule by Don Rutledge it just happened that way.) But now Don Rutledge is in league with the rebellion of John Ingalls and in competition with the ministry.

Just consider it. Be flexible. Be open to more than one interpretation. As amazing as it may seem, It is possible for there to be multiple views and explanations for the various experiences we may have had in the local churches.

I propose an unofficial moratorium on telling others who may not see things exactly the same to sit down and shut up.

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus

01-23-2009 09:35 AM

aron

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

"All the brothers are one, except for TC." The message was simple -- one rogue brother in the Recovery, who must be dealt with, nothing more. Everybody else is doing just fine.

This [kind of message] is the result of LSM's long term information control. They are by design the only approved source of information to all the faithful members in the Recovery. Their spin becomes "the truth." The internet has ended that, by providing a means to communicate to one another.

01-23-2009 05:58 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Great thoughts here Aron. I'll add another ...

I remember one comment I heard a few years ago from another LC family member outside of the GLA, basically saying to me, "all the brothers are one, except for TC."

"All the brothers are one, except for TC." So the message was simple -- one rogue brother in the Recovery, who must be dealt with, nothing more. Everybody else is doing just fine. He was told that, and he believed that.

This is the result of LSM's long term information control. They are by design the only approved source of information to all the faithful members in the Recovery. Their spin becomes "the truth." The internet has ended that, by providing a means to communicate to one another, in the safety of one's own home. Or maybe the library or cyber-cafe.

This became the chief difference between the events of Quarantine One and Quarantine Two. Anyone in the Recovery, who wants to know the whole story, can now do so. Anyone can know the facts. If they choose not to, that's perfectly fine with me too. I'm not a crusader. When folks want to stay in the Recovery, that's fine. Let's just make sure the door is open, so folks don't have to stay out of fear.

01-22-2009 09:46 PM

countmeworthy

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

... I equated obstacles with opportunity for the proving of our faith. You'd mentioned the case where Paul & Silas were in jail in Phillipi, bloody and bruised, facing death. They sang hymns of praise to the Father, and the Father said, "Amen" and the earth shook. That's powerful stuff! They didn't wait 'till the doors opened to praise the Father. They praised the Father with the doors shut and the chains still bound firmly. Then the Father moved, and opened the doors.

First off...Thank You for reading my posts...and giving God the Praise.

Keeping WITH this topic, The powerful stuff that happened to Paul & Silas does continue to happen today. We don't hear or see 'great' reports like these in this country of ours but there are countless testimonies of the Power of God, through His Holy Spirit moving in countries where true persecution and oppression is occurring.

However, if we examine our own personal lives, I'm sure there have been incidents where we experienced the chains falling off, our hearts being set free, rising up by Faith, walking and leaping and Praising God.

Quote:

I had it backwards at one time too Aron...I'm sure we're not the only ones! OR and worst yet...we knew it in our heads...not our hearts..not our spirit.

I first began to see and apply this Truth when I would meditate on Phillipians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing..but in everything by prayer and supplications WITH Thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God.

We are instructed NOT to be anxious. Do you know how difficult it is for most of us not to pray in anxiety..with anxiety overwhelming us?

The Holy Spirit through Paul tells us as we pray and make our supplications to God, we Thank Him. We thank Him as we let our requests be made known unto Him.

I have seen my life in Christ change because not a day..maybe not even an hour goes by without me Thanking the Lord. I thank Him for everything. "Lord, I hate that I misplace my keys. Holy Spirit help me find them. "Oh There they are! Thank You Lord. I'll be reading a scripture and I get revelation... OH THANK YOU LORD JESUS!

The more we Thank the Lord Jesus and acknowledge the Holy Spirit..also with Thanksgiving, Favor Follows...to the point where we expect Favor...Expecting Favour might be a foreign concept to many here, because it was for me when I first discovered and acknowledged the Favor of God...but now, I expect Favor and look for it. I declare the Favor of God.

HOWEVER...I spend an ENORMOUS time in prayer with Thanksgiving, Praise and Worship. I also BLESS alot...and when I speak Blessings on people or on myself, I make sure I'm in spirit...not from my mind. I don't take blessings lightly. And God DOES grant us FAVOR constantly...after a while of daily being in the Presence of God, even if we don't ask for FAVOR, He BLESSES us with Favor! That's OUR GOD! He's the GOD of FAVOR and BLESSING!

And Blessings and Favor come from our obeying the Voice of God, the Holy Spirit. I write from experience and TRUTH...that is from the Word of GOD.

Quote:

Likewise, we enter His Courts with (i.e. via, or because of) Praise. Praise is the key to our entry into His Courts. Don't think you must wait to be placed in His Courts, before you can praise. You may have a long wait!

Ain't THAT the truth! Furthermore, when we Praise the Lord especially IN FAITH, THROUGH Faith, them demons scatter like the wind! I have walked and wallowed through the valley of the Shadow of death...I think most of us have at some point or another!. I believe I am strong in the Lord partly because I have told the Lord when I'm at my lowest...violently ill...No matter how I'm feeling, I give YOU PRAISE, HONOR and GLORY Lord Jesus...for YOU alone are Worthy. Praise You Lord Jesus. Thank You for being here with me..not forsaking me or leaving me.

I may not have been 'instantaneously healed physically or emotionally but HE HAS !!

Can I share another personal testimony here? THANKS in advance.

Back in September, I had been ministering to a friend of mine who has had trouble staying focused on the Lord. Skipping the details, I was physically violated and attacked. I never shared it here. I was in a van as a front seat passenger..the driver, her son and 'my friend' who was in the back seat began to cuss me out. I was really scared..especially when the driver BRAKED and stopped to yell at me. At that point, I tried to jump out of the car but they pulled me in and pinned me down. After some time, they released me and they settled down. THEY then said "We should pray".

Now...please understand I knew FULL well demons had gotten hold of them. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against the principalities and powers of the air.

After they dropped me home and left.......I felt I had been through a spiritual and emotional battlezone. I couldn't speak..I couldn't cry..(right away)..I was numbed. A few minutes later, a Christian friend of mine called. She was shocked to 'hear' me. It's not that I was saying anything I was just NUMB. She knew the history of these 2 people and asked me if they had done something to me.

When I replied "yes." My friend went into prayer mode. I just laid there on my bed...unable to say anything for a long time. I'd answer her questions with a yes..no..and finally told her what happened.

..skipping details...she began to pray Psalms. She chose Psalms we sang back in the day. She was never in the LC btw...but when she prayed the Psalms, I replied..I remember singing those psalms and I began to sing the Psalms...well...within an hour, I was ALMOST back to normal...like I am now!!!

The following morning, I was NORMAL as if nothing ever happened...then the Holy Spirit gave me a 'Word'...Death cannot hold the Resurrection Life.

I said to the Lord...WOW, LORD...DEATH CAN NOT hold the Resurrection Life can it? Praise you Lord Jesus!!! I then dusted my LC hymnal from the 70s, looked up that Hymn and began to BELCH IT OUT giving GOD all the GLORY!!

As for my friends...I forgave them immediately. I knew they were under demonic oppression. They've apologized for their actions..and they are genuinely following the Lord. They're not on the same spiritual plane I'm on but they appreciate my fellowship.

There really is POWER in Thanksgiving, Praise and Worship.

Surely His Goodness and His Mercy follows us all the days of our lives. It really does! Most of us have been saved a very, very long time. We know His Word is True..and He is Faithful.

Thank You Lord...for everything...for beginning a most excellent work in me and all of us here...and knowing YOU are going to finish what You started in us.

Thanks also saints...for reading my long winded posts. Hope they were a blessing and a help.

01-22-2009 04:26 PM

aron

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

PROMISE-PROBLEM and PROVISION

aww...great minds think a like. Must be that our minds are being renewed!

Yes, I was thinking of something you wrote recently on another thread when I equated obstacles with opportunity for the proving of our faith. You'd mentioned the case where Paul & Silas were in jail in Phillipi, bloody and bruised, facing death. They sang hymns of praise to the Father, and the Father said, "Amen" and the earth shook. That's powerful stuff! They didn't wait 'till the doors opened to praise the Father. They praised the Father with the doors shut and the chains still bound firmly. Then the Father moved, and opened the doors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

We enter into HIS Gates with Thanksgiving..into HIS Courts with Praise..and into the Presence of God with Worship. We begin by confessing and repenting..to forgive as we have been forgiven, to trust in the cleansing Blood of the Lamb and to believe He makes ALL Things NEW, blessing us and granting us DIVINE FAVOUR from above.

One thing I realized recently is that we enter His Gates with (i.e. via, or because of) Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is the key to enter the kingdom. I had it backwards; I thought that it was entry first, then thanksgiving. No, God wants me to thank Him by faith, before His Gates open wide.

Likewise, we enter His Courts with (i.e. via, or because of) Praise. Praise is the key to our entry into His Courts. Don't think you must wait to be placed in His Courts, before you can praise. You may have a long wait!

Instead, just start praising, wherever you are. Praising is the key to our entry into His Courts. The formula is praise first, then you will enter His Courts, not praises after entry. Faith is key here.

For a long time, I was passive, waiting to be saved. Then one day I was reading those verses and I realized the entry into the kingdom of God was before me. I can praise and thank Him, and nothing can stop my entry. What a mercy to it was to see this! I was so happy when I realized what those verses meant for me.

Some of the LC'ers may say, "Yes, we have those truths", but I would reply, "They are not your truths. They are God's truths". They are freely given, and available to all.

01-22-2009 03:48 PM

countmeworthy

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

If I had my way, the Israelites would have made it through the Red Sea, pharoah and his chariots would be buried forever, and they would have then waltzed into the Promised Land a few happy, celebratory days later. Surely none of that wandering in the wilderness!

John Hagee has a message entitled Promise, Problem and Provision.
For every Promise God gives us, a Problem follows and then He comes and gives us the Provision of solving it.

God promised the Israelites the Promise Land..the Problem: they murmurred..so they took a walk around the mountain. They didn't get it for 40 yrs and took many walks around the same mountain. But they finally got it. LOL!!

He relates it to us..including himself. If we don't want to keep going around and around and around the mountain...stop murmurring and complaining and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit! Problem solved.

That was one of the best messages I ever heard. I laughed soo loud too.

Quote:

Why make it to the Good Land, only to be dragged off in chains...yet again?

Cause they never experienced the Presence of God. They experienced God's acts...their deliverence from the Egyptians stronghold. Not only did God set the slaves FREE but the Egyptians blessed them with Gold, Silver, food, animals. They left Egypt pretty, pretty wealthy. Then God parted the Red Sea for them to cross over and swallowed up the Egyptians by closing the parted waters.

That's ALOT to BE THANKFUL FOR!!! But what do they do? They go build themselves a golden calf with the gold they got from Egypt to worship a COW..a statue of a COW! Good grief! During that time frame, Moses was up in the mountain talking to GOD..being in HIS PRESENCE.

When he came down, the GLORY of GOD was sooo much on him, he had to veil himself so he wouldn't blind the people.

Moses KNEW GOD...the Israelites only knew the ACTS of GOD.

I appreciate and am forever grateful for His ACTS of Loving Kindness and Divine Favor on me...but I know what it is to be in the Presence of God too and there is nothing like His Presence. It goes with you everywhere you go..and His Acts often follow too!

THAT is why I am sooo blessed and Highly Favored! 'Cause I spend a lot of time with HIM and in His Presence. In HIS PRESENCE is the FULLNESS of JOY. It REALLY is! A few months ago, I was trying to make a right turn on a busy street. The traffic was horrendous. I started grumbling..and THEN the LIGHT bulb came on & I realized I hadn't asked the LORD for FAVOR. I said "LORD!! I FORGOT to ask YOU for FAVOR!! I need FAVOR!

And no sooner than I asked and the cars stopped to let me through!!! THANK YOU AGAIN LORD JESUS..Thank YOU for your FAVOR!! I hope it is everyone's experience here too.

Quote:

My guess is that for us who follow Christ, obstacle = opportunity.

PROMISE-PROBLEM and PROVISION

aww...great minds think a like. Must be that our minds are being renewed!

Quote:

Opportunity to praise, to thank, to confess and repent, to forgive as we have been forgiven, to trust and believe. I dunno what hardship equals for others, but for us it ain't weeping and wailing. Our victory is at hand

Quote:

people got tired of "did too" - "did not" exchanges that were dominant elsewhere. So the discussion seems to be a little more in the Hallelujah/praise the Lord vein than before, which is a good thing, imho.

Great post aron! Great insights too! Hats off to you dear brother!

01-22-2009 10:46 AM

aron

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

The real weakness of this board is that by nature it requires people to dwell on the past. Or more basically, it's a board that requires a somewhat negative attitude. You have to have a problem with the LC to fit in. Any social setting based on a negative can turn into a death march.

A board is merely a device to communicate. Christians have been communicating with each other since the first sayings of Jesus began to be written on parchment and passed around. It is instinctive, reflexive, and easily habitual.

If you look at Paul's epistles to the Galatian believers, to the Corinthian believers, there are a lot of "negative" comments. The seven epistles to the churches in Asia in John's Revelation come to mind as well. The Hebrews epistle has some pretty strong language to its recipients, who are ostensibly discipled believers.

Sometimes we have to get through some negative stuff to get where we are going. If I had my way, the Israelites would have made it through the Red Sea, pharoah and his chariots would be buried forever, and they would have then waltzed into the Promised Land a few happy, celebratory days later. Surely none of that wandering in the wilderness! What could be the gain of all that!?!

Then, the captivity in Babylon...why? Why not a glorious kingdom from Solomon onwards which got better and better? Why make it to the Good Land, only to be dragged off in chains...yet again?

My guess is that for us who follow Christ, obstacle = opportunity. Opportunity to praise, to thank, to confess and repent, to forgive as we have been forgiven, to trust and believe. I dunno what hardship equals for others, but for us it ain't weeping and wailing. Our victory is at hand.

We are duly bound to point out the obvious, when someone's "ministry" is wearing no, or few, clothes. Paul took this hard road on at least one occasion, and pointed out Peter's unwitting collusion with the religionistas from Jerusalem (the famous confrontation scene in Galatians). Sometimes we have to call it like we see it, or else our journey becomes man-pleasing versus God-pleasing. But God has other plans for us than a perpetual discussion based on a negative. So I don't think we have to get stuck on rancorous exchanges.

It seemed to me why this board sprung up and got populated in the first place, that people got tired of "did too" - "did not" exchanges that were dominant elsewhere. So the discussion seems to be a little more in the Hallelujah/praise the Lord vein than before, which is a good thing, imho.

01-22-2009 09:29 AM

OBW

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Interesting to see this thread brought back to the forefront. I read back through it and agree that there is more to be said, and considered.

One thing about boards that stands out to me is that it is typically a place with a somewhat singular focus. That brings together people who generally have little to do with each other. I realize that this one is somewhat unique because there are primarily two groups which have strongly opposing views, but generally all have some history with the LC. Despite the apparent exception of DJ, I would say that he actually reflects the issues of another with a history in the LC.

But outside of that, we are generally quite different and many do not actually know the others, or very few of them. That sense of anonymity frees us in various ways. First, we are freer to speak of somewhat personal issues without being that revealing. But we are also freer to misbehave without more that a virtual reprimand.

If we were face-to-face, we could do much of the same discussions, and we might not misunderstand each other as much because we could see expressions (even emoticons can lie), read body language, and quickly point out areas of confusion or ask for clarification.

But on the negative side, in face-to-face meetings we would tend to be guarded concerning personal issues. We would also feel less free to defer answering until some consideration or research was undertaken. Instead we might be more prone to simply “shoot from the hip,” as they say, or more accurately “shoot first and ask questions later.” The latter is too common and results in significant delays in meaningful dialog. Metaphorically, dead people don’t talk; they just stink up the room. (It may have been the rising stench that cleared the “LCS Factor” a few months ago. Great topic, but lots of indiscriminate shooting.)

As to Igzy’s reason #4 (the first #4), for those of us that still visit the Berean forum, you can see how many times Steward has promised that she is leaving. But there is always a post to one of her pet topics that she feels obligated to answer and so she manages only a few minutes. I know that when I have been away, I do visit occasionally to see what is going on. I was successful at staying out for a couple of months (time well spent). But eventually there was a post that just screamed for comment.

It is addictive. I have determined that I will only give it the time I decide on in advance. While I may not stay completely within the limit, it keeps me from becoming a forum hermit/junkie.

01-21-2009 07:53 PM

finallyprettyokay

Re: The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Hey Everyone.

I remembered this thread --- I really liked it then (in August) and I read it again and I still really like it. So -- I am bringing it forward, for your consideration. There are so many points in it that I like so much.

What does everyone think?

fpo

09-08-2008 09:52 PM

blessD

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I think it is important for us as believers in Christ to acknowledge one another...

This board is about acknowledging one another's spiritual journey in Christ. At least that is what it is about to me... As long as others are not in sin and heresy, we are, I think, duly bound to receive each other...

Well spoken... I second that

09-08-2008 07:30 PM

aron

I think it is important for us as believers in Christ to acknowledge one another. At one point we were separated from God, struggling without hope in the world; then by God's grace we acknowledged God's salvation in the person of His Son Jesus Christ. Soon we realized there were others, too, and we began to allow the Great Shepherd to aggregate us, to "assemble" us together into a collective representation expressing to some degree His Wonderful Son.

Remember the words of Paul in the 15th chapter of his epistle to the Roman believers, about receiving one another as God has received us in Christ Jesus. This board is about acknowledging one another's spiritual journey in Christ. At least that is what it is about to me. I am willing to discuss macrame if need be. (Don't have much to say on that one, but I will attempt to listen, anyway.) As long as others are not in sin and heresy, we are, I think, duly bound to receive each other.

There are some self-appointed Big Shots who think that if we are "different" from each other we must be kept apart, kept quiet, kept scattered. But the Shepherd gathers; He assembles His body together as He sees fit. So when we acknowledge one another we say "amen" to His assembly, His gathering. We don't have to agree, or even "like" one another. We simply recognize that God so loved these people that He called them into His dear Son. And that is, to me, important.

08-30-2008 11:40 PM

Indiana

Had me going Tim....

So funny. I agree with FPO.

08-30-2008 07:54 PM

finallyprettyokay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I am not addicted. I proved it by staying away for three weeks! It seemed like a year.

By far, one of the funniest things I have read in a long time. Thanks, Tim, I/we needed that!!!!

fpo

08-30-2008 06:57 PM

Timotheist

I am not addicted. I proved it by staying away for three weeks! It seemed like a year.

08-29-2008 10:32 PM

cityonahill

There is a place for new topics in the "extras..." section.
It would be cool to discuss other stuff when the recycled LC discussions are sluggish...

08-29-2008 08:54 AM

Cal

Quote:

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

Anyway, thanks for the insight, Igzy. BTW, was it you that was reading The Catcher in the Rye? I think so. How's that going? I love that book. Depressing, but amazing. I've been reading it since I was your niece's age, read it every couple years or so.

My niece took her copy home with her so I need to dig ours out of a box somewhere in the garage. Thanks for reminding me. I'm enjoying it.

08-29-2008 08:46 AM

finallyprettyokay

Probably more discussion on a broader level concerning spiritual issues and questions is a great idea. Probably politics is not. Although, believe me, I can hold my own

Igzy: wow, on the story about the reader coming to God. Beautiful story, showing how God goes everywhere to bring us to to Him.

CMW: We did go to Anaheim

-- in the fall of 1974. If I had had my 'druthers, we would still be happily living in southern California --
Anyway, I think we missed you by a year or so.

fpo

08-29-2008 08:20 AM

Cal

CMW,

You always make me smile. I think both can be at work in a person here, the Lord's calling and addiction. It's the difference between being called to work and being a workaholic. Sometimes both are at work in people.

Also, it's good to hear that I won't have to worry about paying my property taxes in January.

08-29-2008 08:12 AM

Cal

Thanks, OBG, for balancing my word. You are right, some might be called to be here. I've felt that about myself. I think the Lord has wanted me to post. But sometimes I post when he probably doesn't want me to.

One thing I need to make clear, the other board I talked about concerning the musician did have a Christian bent, the musician was Christian, but did not produce Christian music as a rule. So many of his fans were Christian, and many weren't.

Anway, I posted a lot of Christian messages there. One night, I saw that I had received a PM from a young woman in Canada. In the message she said that as she had been reading something I wrote something began to come over her. She said she felt an overwhelming sense that God was speaking to her. She prayed to God and Jesus and became a believer, right there in her home by herself.

Well, I'm not primarily an evangelist, I don't get many saved. But that experience showed me the potential of the gift of writing I've been given, and of the Internet. It made all the frustration of that board worthwhile.

So there is a good side to this. Very much so. Just watch out for the dark side.

08-29-2008 08:03 AM

countmeworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

The attraction of this board isn't just the LC, it's also part of the psychological dynamics of boards in general. I've said before that they are very addictive.

If I might be a bit constructive, I think we need to be able to talk about things other than the LC here. We need a section of the board to talk about spiritual matters in and of themselves. This is smart, gifted group of people and I'm interested in what you guys think about things without their always being in terms of the LC. For example, I've wanted to start a thread about the nature of faith. But I don't want to discuss it in terms of the LC or with obligatory jabs at the LC. Also, I'd like an area on the board where we can talk about anything. Sports, politics, macrame, anything.

Any social setting based on a negative can turn into a death march.

And here I thought it was the LORD who wasn't letting me leave these boards. It isn't HIM at all but that I'm addicted !!

Great insight Igzy. Most of us are former LCrs. Unless there are people who have recently left ..say in the last 5 years or so or were in it for such a long, long time and were very involved, boards talking about the LC/Nee & Lee's way of doing things is pretty much irrelevant to many of us. I know it is for ME.

I think in part I hang around to see if there are going to be any newbies jump on board..who I might know from back in the day. FPO & I were supposed to have met back in the day. We were both San Diegoans. But she moved to Anaheim (I think) when I came into the LC in San Diego.

The LC is what our bond WAS. I would find it very difficult to meet with former LCrs on a regular basis. I don't want to be talking about our days in the LC. I want to be talking about 'the NEW MOVE' by the LORD 'on the earth today.'

OF COURSE I'm KIDDING about the 'New Move'!!!!

I, like Igzy would like to discuss more spiritual matters. And of course we are a very gifted group of believers! We have our Heavenly Father's DNA. We are the KING's sons and daughters. We are co-HEIRS with Christ. It only makes sense we are smart, articulate and gifted !

As for politics.... Only reason I keep up with it is because I'm an END TIMES buff...in case anyone hasn't noticed. :-))

I personally believe after much studying, and watching...we're about to experience something BIG..HUGE..HUMONGOUS never experienced by anyone in this life on earth as we know it.

Here's a humdinger for anyone who cares...Call me whatever you want to call me...think what ever you want to think of me...but I don't think a whole bunch of us are going to be around to see who's elected in November. In fact, I'm not even sure there is going to even BE an election!

Now I know I'm stepping out on a limb. But why NOT?!?! :-))) There is wayyy tooo much Hebraic info pointing to the return of the LORD for His BRIDE very, very soon. The information I've gathered is not whimsical and neither am I alone in my observations and studies.

Keep your eyes on Rosh Ha Shanna--Feast of Trumpets late September. (September 29 & 30th) Also Day of Atonement (October 9th).

Keep your eyes on Israel.. President Bush wants to 'preserve' his legacy. A 'peace treaty' giving the Palestinians their own state in Israel..dividing Jerusalem should be ready by year's end.

Sources tell me according to a well respected Rabbi in Israel, the Temple in Jerusalem will begin being built in October and will take 3 1/2 years to complete because of the rituals/sacrifices.

And 'I'M' -addicted- to these LC message boards? LOL!!!!

Well...better to hang out here from time to time than hang out elsewhere on other boards. :-)))

Peace and SHALOM everyone!!!

Carol

08-29-2008 07:48 AM

Only by Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Originally posted in the OBW -- My Journey thread in response to comments about this board.

Board addiction is a strange phenomenon. We don't get addicted to clubs or other social settings as we do here. Our knowledge and experience of others in the group is nebulous and tenuous. Yet our bond to the board is strong. I think the reason is we feel we can "make our mark" at a board like no other place.

I’ve got both the addiction AND the emotional attachment. Addiction to the iron-sharpens-iron discussions that send me to the Word. Emotional attachment to the members – most of whom I don’t know, but whom I’ve grown quite fond of – “food-fights and all” – over the past several years of following their/your posts. When the forum hits rough waters, like it seems to currently be rowing through, I pray. I pray for each member and I pray for the Forum. And I silently beg, “Don’t go…your portion is needed here. You have something to say. You’re being heard and YOU may be THE one to impact a seeking lurker with your words.” Forums are a dime a dozen...but, this particular forum is unique among the thousands out there. It is likely the ONLY forum of its kind, dealing with the topic of the LC with open freedom. The testimonies of many who have frequented the BARM and this place have expressed that God has used this/BARM forum to change their lives through the testimonies and your posts. My guess is that the core of you who have been here for the long haul are called by God to be here for His purposes. We’re family…who maybe doesn’t get along 24/7…but we’re still family. Probably good to take a breather now and then, but my entreaty is, “Don’t be gone too long. Stay and be part of what God is doing here…and around the world…through your calling to this place…”

08-29-2008 06:53 AM

Cal

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I must say, Igzy, you have written an illuminating treatise on board addiction and board behavior. I fear I've got the disease and I don't like it.

Anyway, this was one of the more insightful posts I've read.

SC

SC,

I've found being aware of the dynamic helps deal with it. My one rule of thumb is Don't Take Things Personally, which I've been able to do here, except, er, um... ahem... when it comes to some of your posts.

Sorry.

It's the sensitive feelings getting provoked that initiates the down cycles, and some people just can't seem to deal with them, or don't realize what's happening. They are simply thinking "I've been misunderstood!" or "that so-and-so isn't going to get away with that!" And they proceed as a mob to run the board into the ground.

Basically, one has to be able to "Just Say No." No viewing, no posting until one honesty can control it. I think one reason people check out is they are trying to deal with the compulsion. Not a bad thing to do if you can't control it.

08-28-2008 03:58 PM

finallyprettyokay

Wow. This answers questions for me. These two forums have been my first board experience, and what an experience it has been.

Quote:

If I might be a bit constructive, I think we need to be able to talk about things other than the LC here. We need a section of the board to talk about spiritual matters in and of themselves. This is smart, gifted group of people and I'm interested in what you guys think about things without their always being in terms of the LC. For example, I've wanted to start a thread about the nature of faith. But I don't want to discuss it in terms of the LC or with obligatory jabs at the LC. Also, I'd like an area on the board where we can talk about anything. Sports, politics, macrame, anything.

Interesting ideas. Just know -- I have somewhat strong feelings about politics, and those feelings/ideas may be different than a lot of us here. Just from small comments in some posts, I draw that semi-conclusion.

If that is where this goes ---

Anyway, thanks for the insight, Igzy. BTW, was it you that was reading The Catcher in the Rye? I think so. How's that going? I love that book. Depressing, but amazing. I've been reading it since I was your niece's age, read it every couple years or so.

Thanks again. OBW, read this and reconsider!! SC, you too.

finallyprettyokay

08-28-2008 03:32 PM

djohnson

Shhhhhh..don't use the word "addiction". Call it something else that will make us all feel better about our behavior!

08-28-2008 03:20 PM

SpeakersCorner

08-28-2008 03:03 PM

Cal

The Psychological Dynamics of Message Boards

Originally posted in the OBW -- My Journey thread in response to comments about this board.

The attraction of this board isn't just the LC, it's also part of the psychological dynamics of boards in general. I've said before that they are very addictive.

I've been on one before that was centered around a particular musician and I saw the same things going on that occur here--the same psychology, the same misunderstandings, the same ebb and flow. I found it very hard to break away. I kept coming back. Why? Because I had an emotional investment in it.

All you need to get addicted to a board is:

1) A board covering a subject you are interested in and have strong feelings about.

2) An opinionated personality.

3) Enough participation on your part to initiate an emotional investment in the board. I.e. You care about the stake of your opinion in the board and even more your perceived status on the board. You don't want to be misunderstood. You don't want ideas you disagree with to take hold.

4) Adversaries. Someone who might paint you or your ideas in a bad light. This will always keep you coming back to defend yourself.

4) The time and the temperament to hang out on a board.

Board addiction is a strange phenomenon. We don't get addicted to clubs or other social settings as we do here. Our knowledge and experience of others in the group is nebulous and tenuous. Yet our bond to the board is strong. I think the reason is we feel we can "make our mark" at a board like no other place.

I have a high IQ and I'm a good writer. I'm highly opinionated and have a strong sense of indignation about injustice. I think I'm right about what's right. I'm extremely logical and also pretty emotional. I'm somewhat introverted, a computer guy and a pretty darn good typist. In other words, I'm tailor-made for board addiction. Perhaps you are, too.

Anyway, like I said, the dynamic I've seen here is the same on other boards. They move in group-feel-driven, emotional swings, up and down, up and down. There is a unsettling mob mentality which rears an ugly head on down cycles. During the down-cycles, invariably some people check out, promising never to come back, but secretly hoping that someone might miss them enough to encourage them to stay. People feel bad that people leave because they feel it's evidence they shouldn't be here either.

But on the up cycles you feel like you are in the company of bright, likable people who share your interests. You might even call them friends. You feel engaged. Soon however, boredom and impatience sets in, someone has a bad day, and another down cycle starts. At some point you have to come to grips with the weirdness of boards and decide whether they are for you or not. But I think it's in bad taste to check out and blame the board. After all, it's really human nature at work.

I checked out of the Bereans and have never posted there again. Soon after that, this board appeared and I felt to support it. This board is an improvement over the other board. I think the majority of the stuff has been of high quality. But the "LCS Factor" thread initiated a down cycle which marked the end of the honeymoon.

I disgree that this board is a "bizarro LSM" though it could become one. We do need someone like Pat C, but we definitely don't need certain others. We had some good new folks on the other board who didn't make the transition. I wish a gracious LSMer would post here, but perhaps that's asking too much.

If I might be a bit constructive, I think we need to be able to talk about things other than the LC here. We need a section of the board to talk about spiritual matters in and of themselves. This is smart, gifted group of people and I'm interested in what you guys think about things without their always being in terms of the LC. For example, I've wanted to start a thread about the nature of faith. But I don't want to discuss it in terms of the LC or with obligatory jabs at the LC. Also, I'd like an area on the board where we can talk about anything. Sports, politics, macrame, anything.

The real weakness of this board is that by nature it requires people to dwell on the past. Or more basically, it's a board that requires a somewhat negative attitude. You have to have a problem with the LC to fit in. Any social setting based on a negative can turn into a death march.