Originally Posted by OBW

A few years back now, I had a nephew (in the LC) say to me at a large family gathering that saying it better improves the experience of Christ. He was tentatively eager to engage in a serious discussion of the claim, but then never actually showed up when we got a place set up to do it online (private group on Facebook). I promised myself to be focused and kind in the exchange, but there was never a single interaction.

Originally Posted by Cal

Ironically, those in the LR don't actually eat and drink enough. If they did, they'd be more interested in the reality rather than being top dog and having the best jargon.

Originally Posted by Raptor

When the Lord uses the words "I am....." we need to pay much attention to what follows. Remember His words created the universe, so if He is saying something about Himself, it must be very important...especially if it is in the present tense.

"I am the bread of life...."

That's who He is (and millions of other things). There will not be a time when He is not the bread of life, He IS, everyday, throughout time and for all eternity, the bread of life. ... He said, "I am the bread of life..." that is today and in my experience everyday, and will continue to be for all eternity.

Originally Posted by MikhailianInception

Hey SonstoGlory,

I know this may be an old post, but I was scouring through this website and found this thread. The LC seemed to be the only church talking about Eating Christ when one is in that particular group. But, just reading Church History has shown many people alluding to eating Christ and having an intimate relationship with Him. John Piper has alluded to it, Jonathan Edwards who preached Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, Andrew Murray, T. Austin-Sparks, Frank Viola - I'm currently doing Viola's Living By The Indwelling Life of Christ discipleship course, Mike Bickle from IHOP (though I know people can divide over IHOP), Charles Spurgeon talks about feeding his spirit through the Word in prayer, The saints before the Reformation who practiced Lectio Divina. It's usually people who have savored Jesus Christ in their devotional life that they have seen spiritual growth or revivals break out through their ministries.

Just the Bible alone talks about Drinking and Eating (Isaiah 55:1, John 7:37-39, John 6:35-53, Genesis 1-3 - Eating from the Tree of Life or Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil). As much as the LC has taught this in their church, the Bible and Church History alludes to it. The LC does not have exclusivity to these practices, though they may claim that to be the case. Personally I have no problems with the Christian mystics of the past. If one is led by the Spirit, that in itself is a supernatural thing, and therefore can be counted as a mystical experience. I mean Jesus Himself rose from the dead. If that is not mystical/supernatural, I don't know what is!

-M.L.

Originally Posted by awareness

But I don't see any evidence that eating Jesus accomplishes any transformation into the image or Christ ... of the making of god-men.

Originally Posted by awareness

But I don't see any evidence that eating Jesus accomplishes any transformation into the image or Christ ... of the making of god-men.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

we agreed that eating Jesus is just turning to Him in the word, by prayer, song, fellowship and other worship.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent! And this is what Christians have been teaching, preaching, experiencing and fellowshipping for over 2,000 years! So we don't need Witness Lee or his followers to tell us how to "eat Jesus". The Bible has told us already. The common, everyday believer already knows about eating Jesus, and they don't need any super apostle or "ministry" to emphasize it anymore than it is emphasized by the Word of God, and by the healthy teachers, preachers and apologists that God has placed in the Body in church history. Is't that wonderful?
-

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

We agreed that eating Jesus is just turning to Him in the word, by prayer, song, fellowship and other worship.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

..there is a proper simplicity in Christ, right?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It doesn't mean we should be mindless, rather "Be wise as serpents, yet gentle as doves."

Originally Posted by aron

The Bible shows us two things, really: the complete depravity of man (you, me, David, Solomon etc etc etc) and the complete obedience of man (Jesus alone). Our faith is in the Second Adam and not the first. The whole problem with "enjoyment" in its various iterations is that it distracts us, from Christ to ourselves. Only his experiences are trustworthy. Yes, we are "enroute" as it were, but checking off the mile markers is delusional. Keep your hand on the plow and your eyes forward.

The above, of course, is my impression. Not a "truth" that I fight over. I judge no one's experience, nor take an antagonistic position. Just some thoughts from a fellow pilgrim along the way. But to me, "I come to do Your will, O God, behold in the scroll of the book is written concerning me" is Jesus Christ alone. Not me, exercising my spirit on the local ground (or off it). The "I" of scripture is Jesus Christ alone. Nothing else has value.



I pull this over from another thread because it's an example of what seduced me, initially. "So simple and easy" and "we enjoy you Lord Jesus in our experience" became the latest wacko directive from Anaheim. It wasn't so simple or easy, after all, nor enjoyable, nor did it look anything like the Jesus I saw in the gospels in the NT. I protested, and was ignored. The Oracle of Anaheim had spoken.

And look at the "I don't know so much" in the chorus. That was code for "shut your mind off", inculcating deliberate ignorance. As one Blended said, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand" .. the One New Man, Witness Lee style.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If the Bible shows one thing it is the complete depravity of man

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

How about this one:

I’m walking down the road
That leads to glory.
I’m pressing toward the mark
By enjoying God!
I don’t know so much,
Just to love Him.
I’m walking down the road,
Glory, here I come.
1
With the brothers and the sisters,
We enjoy Him day by day.
It’s so simple and easy,
Our worries flee away.
Now we’re growing together,
As one big family,
Abiding in the joy of the Lord.
2
We enjoy You, Lord Jesus,
In our experience.
We’re getting to know You—
It’s making us leap and dance.
Just eating and drinking,
It’s what we do the best,
Delighting in the love of the Lord.
3
We’re walking, not running,
Cause we’re in the pasture land.
Our Shepherd is nearby,
We’re trusting in His hand.
He’s everything to us,
He’s all we ever need,
Resting in the peace of the Lord.

Originally Posted by aron

And the proof's in the pudding. Witness Lee, who stressed pray-reading as "eating God" and crucial to one's personal "intrinsic metabolic transformation", himself could not avoid every appearance of evil - see Philip Lee, Daystar, Jane Anderson, John Ingalls, &c - whilst Jesus who didn't even mention pray-reading was the spotless Lamb of God.

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is an example of what faulty hermeneutics do.. it allows for subjective interpretation of the text and as a result of that, conclusions that are out of line with the actually context of what's being spoken.

Here's what I see; in the LC's you are taught strong emphasis on the spiritual experience but sorely lack proper biblical interpretative skills. Because of what I see as Nee's and Lee's spiritual pride and prejudices toward the rest of Christendom, they also rejected the more scholarly approach to understanding scripture which the majority of mainstream Christianity adheres to called exegesis. As such, they adopted the more subjective method of interpreting scripture, eisegesis.

I understand that many Christians focus too much on study rather than experience, but the typical LC member focuses too heavily on experience. Having too strong of an emphasis on the spiritual can and will lead to false spirituality, aka mysticism. Being properly grounded in scripture with a more disciplined approach to studying the text helps prevent that from happening. However, going to either extreme means missing the mark. One side eventually becomes like an Ephesus (forgetting the joy they once had in Christ) and the other a Laodicea (claiming they have all the spiritual riches yet remain spiritually blind to the Holy Spirit).

I'm by no means a scholar but I would recommend you guys do exactly what member byHismercy is actively trying to do while studying scriptures; forget everything you were taught in the LC's and start with a fresh new outlook viewing the text through an exegetical lens. I too used to be "experience heavy" early on in my walk. Studying basic hermeneutics has helped me tremendously in approaching scripture properly.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why not write your own book? Forget about publishing anything. Get all the pertinent verses. Study them, compare them, try to put them together like a puzzle. Let the verses expand your mind. Struggle with them in prayer. Write them down. Put them into outlines and paragraphs.

I believe this type of "study to show thyself approved" (II Tim 2.15) is far more valuable than just reading books.

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

Unfortunately, most of us are not gifted enough to be writing our own books. In fact, most of us are not gifted enough to receive ''high revelation,'' or even correct interpretation, every time we read the Bible for ourselves. Most of us need some help from experienced teachers. We have to trust our own Spirit to detect any errors. Or, we may just see differently than the teacher we are reading at the time. A good healthy balance of listening to trusted teachers, and reading just the pure Word, is needed.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Anything, and I mean anything, can be taken too far!

The watchword is, as you said, is "healthy balance."

I'm a firm believer that reading thru the Bible provides much needed healthy balance.

Many Christians frankly spend far too much time reading books, rather than God's word, and this is often the #1 reason for unbalance. Writing our own books, whether published or not, can be far healthier for us than merely reading other's books.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is important to me is making sense of this. In many cases they veered off from the truth. Why?

The practice described in "Lord Thou Saidst" compiled by Ray Graver and published by LSM in 1981 is undeniably Biblical and certainly taught and practiced in church history. That was the point of the book at a time when the lawsuits were accusing the Recovery of "chanting", etc.

However, that book does not resemble the practice that is described by people currently meeting with the LC, why? The book is no longer listed on LSM's website, why?

I think this exposes the "have my cake and eat it too" mentality. If the saints read that book "pray reading" is no longer the great discovery of WL, also the practice the saints have will appear a very poor imitation or knock off of the real thing. And yet they want to be accepted as part of fundamental Christianity and WL is no longer alive. As a result I conclude that the value of "LC pray reading" to require saints to purchase LSM published materials outweighs any reasons they would have for the saints to read that book.

I think this is evidence for those who saw a distinct change in the nature of the LC before 1980 and after 1980. In that book Ray gives a personal testimony about how he was very moved with the verse in Acts when the leaders realized the disciples "had been with Jesus". He had been with Jesus, they are attacking the church for bringing in far eastern practices of pray reading and calling on the Lord. He is running to the defense, innocently and naively. But by the time his book is published LSM is building a training center in Irving, he is the foreman, he is running a wing of the publishing business, and the elders in Anaheim are being pushed out opening the door for Benson and Ray to take over. From that point selling books for LSM outweighs the narrow way that leads to life.

This book itemizes quotes from 56 bible teachers other than WL. Anyone who reads this book will immediately discover an entire world of ministers of the pure word outside of LSM, outside of WL and the blendeds. That to me is why this book had to be ditched.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Oh no - don't bring up the hot topic of CHRISTIAN MYSTICS! Some get riled-up concerning that subject; personally I think it's kinda fun! (sorry UntoHim)

Originally Posted by aron

I say that the essential NT requirements for salvation, or "the basic things which should be emphasized", are:

1. Believe into Jesus. Self-explanatory. I could cite the verses but you [should] know them.

2. Deny the self. "Take up the cross and follow me" and such verbiage. If you continue to indulge your sinful and fallen flesh, and likewise your soulish comforts, you're probably no better than an ubeliever (imho). Maybe even worse - "and the last state of the man was worse than the first".

3. Reach beyond yourself and express in some practical way the same love for your neighbour that you have for yourself, and that God had for you in sending His Son. If you have a sandwich and your neighbour's hungry, - voom - 1/2 the sandwich travels to your neighbour's hand. A cup of water, a shirt, a ride to town...we all know that to "work the works of God" is to believe into the Christ whom God has sent per John 6:28,29.... now, if you 'believe' but continue to act in a self-centered manner, I wonder then what you believe? If you truly believe, then you'll obey the commands, "Feed my sheep"... maybe that meant, a real sandwich to a real hungry person, not just selling them LSM materiel? Worth asking, here.

Beyond that, I don't see much. Yes, study scriptures and show yourself approved, and yes gather together with the faithful, etc. But I see the first 3 as essentials. The rest is not 'crucial' as WL and other ministers tried to sell you.

Let me trot out Dorcas (Tabitha) for example. She clearly met Conditions 1, 2, and 3. Whether she pray-read or sing-read or PSRP'd or whatever else isn't known. Not important, really. She believed, and loved others enough to get out of herself. The weeping widows holding up her hand-made shirts testified of her status as a disciple of Jesus Christ (Acts 9:36-41). If the "other stuff" gets emphasized alongside this, then it's a distraction at best and a stumbling at worst.

Originally Posted by Raptor

So I believe there is an emphasis on eating and drinking Jesus in the Bible, but I have realized the following: yes, E&DJ is very important, BUT if other basic things are not emphasized also, then an imbalance occurs.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Anything, and I mean anything, can be taken too far!

The watchword is, as you said, is "healthy balance."

I'm a firm believer that reading thru the Bible provides much needed healthy balance.

Many Christians frankly spend far too much time reading books, rather than God's word, and this is often the #1 reason for unbalance. Writing our own books, whether published or not, can be far healthier for us than merely reading other's books.

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

I haven't read this entire thread yet, but, I can tell that the ''mysticism bugaboo'' is certainly part of it!
You can go too far with any kind of emphasis in doctrine or practice. A.W. Tozer suggested a healthy balance of the mystics and the Puritans in our reading. I go by that.

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

In these days, I think it's very hard to find any practice in line with the Scripture, in regard to eating, drinking and breathing Christ. I think you'd have to go back a ways to find something even close. I bet you could come up with something from some earlier Christian mystics.

Originally Posted by Bubbles!

In these days, I think it's very hard to find any practice in line with the Scripture, in regard to eating, drinking and breathing Christ. I think you'd have to go back a ways to find something even close. I bet you could come up with something from some earlier Christian mystics.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hmm, boy I'm glad I only have to eat just once to sustain my physical life! Oh wait, no I dont and no I'm not glad - because I like to eat, and I get to do it a number of times today! If I didn't eat frequently, my energy would suffer greatly (except the energy to find something to eat).

And why do we do the Lord's Table more than once?

And what about drinking - we have to do that even more often . . . is there perhaps a picture there? What I think you're saying sounds a little like the idea that "I've got my ticket punched, now I don't need anything until I go to heaven," doesn't it?

"As the dear panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God." Psalm 42:1

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

(I searched but didn't come up with any threads on here about eating and drinking Jesus, so I thought to start one.)

This was a big theme with the LC back in the day. There are plenty of instances in the word that talk about eating and drinking the Lord, perhaps most famously where Jesus Himself said in John 6:53, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." When He spoke it, it says many were offended and left, and I can certainly see why! Many, many other places talk about eating and/or drinking. The Lord's Table is another famous example and Paul talks about drinking the One Spirit. There's much more in the word about this, of course.

I'm convinced that eating and drinking Christ is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.

But I have to say that the LC is one of the few places that I've heard about this (except here in Scottsdale) over the years. Different ones certainly mention the significance of the Lord's Table, but I don't know I've heard eating and drinking related much to my daily walk with Christ - that is, to eat Him on a daily basis that I might live by Him.

Now in reading certain authors (T. Austin Sparks comes to mind, Andrew Murray and maybe Piper) they certainly speak regarding this matter of eating to be strengthened into the inner man and to live Christ daily. But I've been to a few places and have been exposed to a fair amount of Christian radio and TV, and I can't remember when I've heard this specific teaching.

Any-a-ways - I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss.

Originally Posted by JJ

I’ve enjoyed seeing a spirited discussion on this thread. Good to see some balance on eating and drinking.

No eating and drinking is not emphasized much in the community church circles I’ve been in since 2000. But, neither is it devoid. Pastor exclaimed “taste and see that the Lord is good!” in a sermon two weeks ago. The Bible has many verses regarding eating and drinking Jesus, so we shouldn’t be shy about that. TLR mindlessness is the issue. Community churches could stand to hear more on this topic.

Originally Posted by FranklyM

,.... the bible doesn't emphasize it, why should we?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

brother Raptor... I was really hoping that you would put those deadly talons to work and dig up some strong biblical and historical evidence to support the Local Church practices of pray-reading and calling on the Lord.-

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So again, I am simply asking you brothers to come down from the heavens and get practical with us. Tell us exactly what you mean by "eating and drinking" and "learning how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord". Since you keep telling us that you don't see anywhere else where this is taught and practiced except in the Local Church (and Scottsdale I guess), it must be something above and beyond what you have thus far stated. So let's hear it!

Originally Posted by Igzy

Don't get hung up on specifics. You'll miss out on seeing the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Don't get hung up on specifics. You'll miss out on seeing the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Navy"]I think may of us are still waiting to hear about the "this" that our friend Sons to Glory! is speaking of. And we're still waiting to get the details about what Raptor means by "teach this" or "practice this". When pressed for details, Sons to Glory! describes what protestant Christians have teaching and practicing for 2,000 plus years. Nothing different.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm convinced that eating and drinking Christ is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.
But I have to say that the LC is one of the few places that I've heard about this (except here in Scottsdale) over the years. Different ones certainly mention the significance of the Lord's Table, but I don't know I've heard eating and drinking related much to my daily walk with Christ - that is, to eat Him on a daily basis that I might live by Him.

Originally Posted by Raptor

I think it's a great mercy to see that and to learn how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord... daily! (And I agree, I don´t think there are many places that teach this or practice this on a daily basis.)

Originally Posted by Raptor

StG... The thought of the importance of eating spiritually is highlighted in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Lord presented Himself as food and drink to us over and over again. I think it's a great mercy to see that and to learn how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord... daily! Once you see this AND have the experience you realize it's crucial for our growth and strength. Like other practices, though, it's important not to allow this to become something mechanical and impersonal. It is not a "thing", but we are dealing with a Person and enjoying Him...(And I agree, I don´t think there are many places that teach this or practice this on a daily basis.)

Originally Posted by Raptor

StG... The thought of the importance of eating spiritually is highlighted in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Lord presented Himself as food and drink to us over and over again. I think it's a great mercy to see that and to learn how to eat, drink, absorb and enjoy the Lord... daily! Once you see this AND have the experience you realize it's crucial for our growth and strength. Like other practices, though, it's important not to allow this to become something mechanical and impersonal. It is not a "thing", but we are dealing with a Person and enjoying Him...(And I agree, I don´t think there are many places that teach this or practice this on a daily basis.)

Originally Posted by FranklyM

The reason we cannot find anyone who emphasizes eating Jesus like Witness Lee and LSM is because nobody else emphasizes it, because it shouldn't be emphasized. The bible doesn't emphasize it, why should we?

Originally Posted by FranklyM

The reason we cannot find anyone who emphasizes eating Jesus like Witness Lee and LSM is because nobody else emphasizes it, because it shouldn't be emphasized. The bible doesn't emphasize it, why should we?

I think a lot of our misunderstandings are due to our over exploring of the metaphors used in the bible. We take passages that use a certain imagery such as the human body to describe what the church is, and we add more concepts that are based on our knowledge and experience of the human body. However, the added concepts are not in the original text. So my question is, is it OK to add more?

In the case of John 6, Witness Lee tries to bring up the concept of a daily eating of the Lord. But if you read carefully, you will notice that this concept of daily eating isn't present. You will also notice that the Lord only uses the food metaphor because the people insisted on asking for more food. The Lord even called them out on vs 26. It was also the people who brought up the topic of the manna, not the Lord. The Lord then used the manna to CONTRAST Himself with the manna, and when doing so the Lord is using a very specific aspect of food: human food will only satiate you temporarily, because you will get hungry again later. But if you "eat" Jesus, the real bread from heaven, you will never hunger again! We cannot keep adding other attributes of food such as "The reason living things eat is to stay alive and keep everything functioning. If we don't eat physical food, we die before long and if we don't drink, we die sooner." Just because the Bible uses one aspect of food it does not give us the freedom to continue to add more food attributes to the passage.

At the end, it is clear that the Lord Jesus used the food example to say that if you BELIEVED in Him (ate Him) you would have ETERNAL LIFE (never hunger or thirst again). Read John chapter 6 again without trying to make it about the Lord as our daily portion and you will see.

57 "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
58 "This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

In conclusion, we will most likely not find other groups that emphasize eating Jesus daily; and that is a good thing! That doesn't go to say that there isn't another step of our Christian life, an aspect that is done daily.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So now maybe we can talk about the purpose of eating and drinking Jesus. The reason living things eat is to stay alive and keep everything functioning. If we don't eat physical food, we die before long and if we don't drink, we die sooner. (Brother Lee - yes, he was a brother - also talked about breathing Jesus to live on a moment by moment basis.) Therefore, the purpose of eating and drinking regularly, is to keep the inner man nourished and functioning, right? Our spirit is alive and regenerated by the Spirit of Christ, and needs to be feed in order for us to effectively walk in spirit - or at least this is what I believe.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And the older I get I think more and more about the here-after. Just this morning I went into the garage and said to myself, "Now what in the world am I here after?"

Originally Posted by aron

And I apologize that it took 15 posts to say what could have been done neatly in one or two. But I seem to work in an elliptical fashion, not knowing where I'm going until I get there. But then I get there and remember.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

You evidently missed where I said once or maybe twice that in starting the thread I had no conception of "pray-reading." It was about "eating & drinking Jesus." Others have equated the two, and hence this discussion.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

You evidently missed where I said once or maybe twice that in starting the thread I had no conception of "pray-reading." It was about "eating & drinking Jesus." Others have equated the two, and hence this discussion.

Now, Aron, I think I do see your point - there evidently is no passage that specifically says "pray-reading is eating Jesus." I think, narrowly defined, we have to give that to you.

Originally Posted by aron

Do you think that P-R is "eating Jesus"? That's what it was sold as in the LC, that's what StG is apparently referencing in his title. Yet there's nothing behind it except a sales job by the self-proclaimed MOTA. I'm just calling it out for what it appears to be, unless someone else can show me where it comes from scripture. It's a sales job just like "God's economy" was.

Unless someone can show me scripture, how can I say that P-R is "eating Jesus"? Or how can you, or anyone? I'd be willing to change my mind. Just show me a verse.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Aron, this is getting tiresome.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Aron, this is getting tiresome. You admit that the term "eating Jesus" is Biblical. You admit that Jesus is the incarnated word. You admit that our job is believe this word and that faith mixed with the word is how we get the Lord's instant speaking. You admit that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God".

So then if prayer is a conversation with God that is based on faith, and faith is a result of our hearing God's word, then the evidence of that is our prayer. Prayer is simply hearing God's word and responding in faith.

Originally Posted by aron

But where does scripture say that this is "eating Jesus"?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, thanks for the bio, which displays the two sides of pray-reading which I talked about -- initially the "teaching" of P-R, and the subsequent "practice" of P-R.

Originally Posted by Igzy

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Matt 4:4

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So yes, I have seen a very distorted and warped practice that is called "pray reading" and I have also seen the Biblical and historical roots of what many in the LC consider to be "pray reading".

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Describe your "biblical" experience with pray-reading. Describe your "biblical" experience with calling on the Lord. [/COLOR]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I don't think I said that, did I? I think it just came about as something of an equivalent in the discussion. My question was more about who else is preaching and/or practices the eating & drinking of Jesus routinely. (If I did say that, I really didn't mean to . . .)

Originally Posted by StG

UntoHim - I've written what this (eating/drinking/calling) experience looks like to me on a daily basis, in a couple posts on this thread (see posts 34 & 84), but nobody has commented yet on these. Did these not address your question or did you not read?

Originally Posted by aron

The title of the thread is "Eating Jesus". The OP said that this was pray-reading. You mentioned pray-reading so I assumed you agreed with the OP, and I was looking for scriptural basis.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Describe your "biblical" experience with pray-reading. Describe your "biblical" experience with calling on the Lord. [/COLOR]

This "challenge" is also for my friend Sons to Glory! as well. How is this "eating and drinking of Jesus daily" there in Scottsdale differed (if at all) from your earlier experience in the Local Church of Witness Lee? Please be practical as you possibly can.
-

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You mix faith with the word and the written word becomes the spoken word, that is your food. Jesus is the word that feeds our soul, it gives us hope, faith, and love.

Originally Posted by aron

I'm looking for support from scripture. John 4 has Jesus' food being obedience - doing the Father's will. John 6 has our faith [in his obedience] leading to the transfer of this will [eternal life] to us through our receiving his word [our obedience to his command/expressed will]. This allows his word to be the food that lives forever in us and we in it. Nothing spoken nor inferred of prayer/pray-reading that I see.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Originally Posted by Igzy

Sorry. I thought we were discussing pray-reading as well.

All my wanderings into mysticism must have addled my mind.

Carry on!

Originally Posted by aron

"Quoting God's word back to him in prayer"

The title of the thread is "EATING AND DRINKING JESUS DAILY"

Where is the connection? In scripture? Or in your mind?

Originally Posted by aron

The reason Jesus' words are life is because of [his] obedience. Declaring is part of the solution. But declaring without obedience is vain. To me, that is what is inferred in this passage. Not pray-reading.

Jesus's obedience to the Father, and our realization (faith in) Jesus effects the transfer of the Father's will (eternal life) to us. Prayer is good. Jesus spent all night in prayer. But his food was obedience not pray-reading.

The Father's words [expressed will] were eternal life to him through obedience, not prayer. Ditto us with Jesus' words. That's what is inferred here. I don't think prayer is even mentioned in John 6.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

John 1:14 says the word became flesh (Jesus)

John 6:51 says that Jesus is the Living bread, that man is to eat this bread, and that the bread He gives us is His flesh.

John 6:53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.

Hence the term "eating Jesus". Of course this verse caused a lot of discomfort, so a few verses later Jesus clarified:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

and hence the interpretation that pray reading the word is "eating His flesh"

Originally Posted by aron

No I don't. But the title of the thread talks about "Eating and Drinking Jesus Daily". My question is: where does the Bible say that praying in the scripture is "Eating and Drinking Jesus [Daily]"?

Originally Posted by Igzy

Quoting God's word back to him in prayer. What could be more wholesome? Anyone who has a problem with that would have a problem with little girls who love puppies.




Hold on. Just a minute. That girl looks a bit mystical. And look at that puppy she's holding. He's obviously a mystic.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Can you clarify? This isn't clear to me - you don't object to praying scripture? thx

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is that a joke? Just gimme one verse! I could play that game with every truth in the Bible.

Receive the word of God by means of all prayer. Eph 6.17 EATING? WHERE?

The words I speak to you are spirit and life. John 6.63 EATING? WHERE? PRAYING?

Jesus is the living bread. The bread He gives is His flesh. John 6.51 PRAYING? WHERE?

My flesh is true food. My blood is true drink. John 6.55 PRAYING? WHERE?

He who eats me shall live because of Me. John 6.57 PRAYING? WHERE?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is that a joke? Just gimme one verse! I could play that game with every truth in the Bible.

Receive the word of God by means of all prayer. Eph 6.17

The words I speak to you are spirit and life. John 6.63

Jesus is the living bread. The bread He gives is His flesh. John 6.51

My flesh is true food. My blood is true drink. John 6.55

He who eats me shall live because of Me. John 6.57

Originally Posted by aron

I pray in the Bible. Maybe others object, but I have not. But please look at the title of the thread -- where does it say in the Bible that praying in scripture is eating Jesus? Just give me one verse. Thanks.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Hudson Taylor, William Law, Andrew Murray, Darby, George Muller, Robert Govett, Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, A.B. Simpson, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, John Calvin, Martin Luther, William Tyndale. These are all quoted in "Lord Thou Saidst" -- are they mystics?

"If ye abide in Me and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you". Was John a mystic? Jesus?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No, let's steer clear of the "mystical" stuff for now. I think we have enough controversial things to kick around without juggling that hot potato. Besides, I don't really think many insiders or outsiders would consider Witness Lee and his followers as "mystics". Maybe Watchman Nee is viewed as a mystic by some observers, especially in his younger "Spiritual Man" days, but Watchman Nee has not been the major influence in the LC movement for about 70 years now.

Eating & Drinking Jesus Daily? Let's discuss! I think we might want to follow a little bit of wisdom dispensed by Dennis Prager - "Let us value clarity over agreement". I think we can avoid a lot of unnecessary food fights if we take this little adage to heart.
-

Originally Posted by aron

I pray in the Bible. Maybe others object, but I have not. But please look at the title of the thread -- where does it say in the Bible that praying in scripture is eating Jesus? Just give me one verse. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So I don't know where or how the practice started, or what it should or shouldn't be called. "But this I know" (as the hymn starts out) that I enjoy taking the word many times by prayer. ...This practice, no mater what it might get called, will not be given up by me unless the Anointing tells me ....Maybe we should examine this further, apart from specific the topic at hand - which is, Who emphasizes eating and drink Jesus besides the LC?

Now I think it is well established, at least to me, that eating & drinking is a main topic in the Bible, and can be readily shown from the first two chapters in Genesis to the last two chapters in Revelation. And I think it is also established well, again - at least to me, that the LC's practice of mindless chanting is off the mark and not to be emulated. Are there any current ekklesias you know of who teach and/or practice something of eating & drinking the Lord?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Hudson Taylor, William Law, Andrew Murray, Darby, George Muller, Robert Govett, Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, A.B. Simpson, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, John Calvin, Martin Luther, William Tyndale. These are all quoted in "Lord Thou Saidst" -- are they mystics?

"If ye abide in Me and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you". Was John a mystic? Jesus?

Originally Posted by Igzy

You fools! What difference does it make if pray-reading is biblical?!

IT'S MYSTICISM! MYSTICISM, I TELL YA!!

Originally Posted by Ohio

Or worse!

Chinese mysticism.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is important to me is making sense of this. In many cases they veered off from the truth. Why?

The practice described in "Lord Thou Saidst" compiled by Ray Graver and published by LSM in 1981 is undeniably Biblical and certainly taught and practiced in church history. That was the point of the book at a time when the lawsuits were accusing the Recovery of "chanting", etc.

This book itemizes quotes from 56 bible teachers other than WL. Anyone who reads this book will immediately discover an entire world of ministers of the pure word outside of LSM, outside of WL and the blendeds. That to me is why this book had to be ditched.

Originally Posted by aron

To encapsulate: the "I" of Jeremiah's "Thy words were found and I did eat them" is not the NT believer who is pray-reading but Jesus who is obeying, if we look at his "My food is to do the Father's will" (John 4:24).

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No one is asking if these practices were perfectly homogeneous, I'm just asking if they are perfectly biblical. Hey, even slightly biblical will work for the time being. Equally as important, in my estimation, is where is the evidence that pray-reading and calling on the Lord (AS IT IS TAUGHT AND PRACTICED IN THE LOCAL CHURCH) ever been taught and practiced in recorded church history? If these are such high and grandiose "recovered truths" then point us to where and when they were recovered from.
-

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm convinced that eating and drinking Christ is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you saying that the practice of "pray-reading" in the LC's was perfectly homogeneous across the US?

Perhaps this is getting mixed up with LSM's push of PSRP, the practice of praying, studying, reciting, and prophecying training outlines.

Originally Posted by aron

I see the "eating Jesus" as similar. Focused on the self and it's temporal experiences as if they are of themselves real. Guess what - they maybe *are* and they maybe *are not* and you will find out eventually when the fire makes all clear. Until then don't trust your experiences and enjoyments. Sometimes you are channeling the Father and sometimes the Adversary. Only Jesus is 100% God 100% of the time. Trust him - not your "enjoyment" or your "eating" or whatever you call it.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP, none of the verses you quote, Old Testament or New, show anything close to the "pray-reading" that is practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Not even close. Please stop taking up space and time with quoting reams and reams of verses. It does not make the case that it is a scriptural practice...not even close
-

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP, none of the verses you quote, Old Testament or New, show anything close to the "pray-reading" that is practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Not even close. Please stop taking up space and time with quoting reams and reams of verses. It does not make the case that it is a scriptural practice...not even close
-

Originally Posted by aron

Again, where do the NT references suggest pray-reading? And how do you know the OT references aren't Christ's obedience to the Father's commandments? His gospel usage seems to indicate that.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Originally Posted by Ohio

Instead of Jo S jumping in to shoot down their discussions, should he not rather follow Paul's pattern to exhort the way of faith out of a pure heart?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Navy"]I want to say something to my brothers Son to Glory!, Raptor and Jo S, not really as a "moderator", but simply as a fellow forum member. I really think that you fellows are talking past each other instead of talking with each other......

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"Thy words were found and I did eat them and the word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of my heart" Jer 15:16

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 with all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints, Eph 6:17-18

"Let there be study of the divine word mingled with prayer" Jerome (340-420)

"It is also reasonable that the reading of the Holy Scripture be done with all prayer and groaning as well as praise and thanksgiving" August Hermann Francke (1663-1727)

"My mind being now more open and enlarged, I began to read the Holy Scriptures upon my knees, laying aside all other books and praying over, if possible, every line and word." George Whitefield (1714-1770)

"How blessed would the inner chamber be, what a power and an inspiration in our worship, if we only took God's word as from Himself, turning it into prayer." Andrew Murray (1828-1917)

Originally Posted by Ohio

But UntoHim are we now equivocating words? Have we lost the ability to communicate certain spiritual things with certain spiritual words (I Cor 2.13) on an open forum because of past Lee-isms, Lee-logics, and Lee-semantics?\

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Raptor

..looks like nobody here yet has a problem with praying, neither with reading, but if you put them together, "pray-read", somehow suddenly now that's really bad, and is immediately thrown out.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think UntoHim clinched it. Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep. Why would he have done that if the sheep don't need to eat? Also, the fact that Jesus told Peter three times to do this suggests that the feeding, and eating, is ongoing. I think this is clear enough, and I've never heard anyone else suggest otherwise. You would be hard pressed to find a mainstream Christian teacher who didn't believe that spiritual eating and drinking in some form should be part of the daily Christian life.

The LR's whole weird slant on the idea is, like everything else they slant weirdly, another story.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

"LOOOK .... there's an empty chair here (if he's here ... tho dead over 20 years) ... bro. mota agrees with me, my burden is his burden ..."

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you feel you have to pray-read, chant "Oh Lord Jesus", or meditiate [sic] on the bible or do anything other than have trust in God in order to be in an ongoing relationship with Him, you're into something else altogether. This is the mentality of the mystic, they will have a penitent mindset ruled by guilt rather than a repentant heart led by a healthy reverent fear toward God so there will be an unhealthy pressure to conform through certain works and counter guilt through daily practises [sic] of ecstasy.

Originally Posted by Raptor

I have noticed a strong tendency in many posts and members to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry.

Originally Posted by Raptor

(Observation, the following probably belongs in the "what to throw out" thread: I have noticed a strong tendency in many posts and members to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry.

Originally Posted by Raptor

(Observation, the following probably belongs in the "what to throw out" thread: I have noticed a strong tendency in many posts and members to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry. They still see those topics as if they were exclusive of WL, not the Bible, so they are thrown out. And it's understandable, but frustrating too. Another example, ...looks like nobody here yet has a problem with praying, neither with reading, but if you put them together, "pray-read", somehow suddenly now that's really bad, and is immediately thrown out. [There is a thread about this somewhere]. Maybe changing the term to "read the scriptures prayerfully" and "pray using the words from the scriptures" can be a refreshing angle.)

Originally Posted by Raptor

So I brought the post back to topic on post #35 citing 10 interesting articles with sample quotes from others that do emphasize E&D Jesus daily. Ohio, Igzy, and UntoHim, did you read those?

Originally Posted by Raptor

The OP is about who emphasizes E&D Jesus daily besides the LC. Our dear Jo S somewhat sidetracked the OP by saying "You don't have to keep eating and drinking" post #2. I followed that rabbit trail (probably StG also? and Ohio a little bit?) and kept going in circles with Jo S. Eventually I saw we had gone off-topic and understood Jo S´s belief that he already ate Jesus once, and does not have to eat anymore. (Maybe Jo S can start a new thread, "Eating & Drinking Jesus Daily is not Necessary").

So I brought the post back to topic on post #35 citing 10 interesting articles with sample quotes from others that do emphasize E&D Jesus daily. Ohio, Igzy, and UntoHim, did you read those? Do you have anything to say to further the profitable dialogue of the OP? Do you know of anyone or any groups that practice and emphasize this?

(Observation, the following probably belongs in the "what to throw out" thread: I have noticed a strong tendency in many posts and members to discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry. They still see those topics as if they were exclusive of WL, not the Bible, so they are thrown out. And it's understandable, but frustrating too. Another example, ...looks like nobody here yet has a problem with praying, neither with reading, but if you put them together, "pray-read", somehow suddenly now that's really bad, and is immediately thrown out. [There is a thread about this somewhere]. Maybe changing the term to "read the scriptures prayerfully" and "pray using the words from the scriptures" can be a refreshing angle.)

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Let's take the Lord Jesus as our example and mentor. In John 21 he inquired of Peter "Do you love me more than these?" Peter quickly replied "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you". What, then, did Jesus say? Did he say "Eat my flesh and drink my blood"? No, the Lord said "Feed my lambs".

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! from Opening Post

I'm convinced that eating and drinking Christ is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's not that the sacrifice is daily, it's that the eating is constant (that's what eternal means), although sometimes we focus on it more than other times.

Peter said desire the pure milk of the word. That's ongoing eating. Jesus said his food was to do the will of God. That's also ongoing.

You are correct if you are saying we don't have to re-sacrifice. You are incorrect if you say we don't have to continue eating. Offering the sacrifice and eating it are two different things. And the New Testament clearly shows that eating and drinking are ongoing. Eph 5:18 says literally, "be being filled in spirit." That implies an ongoing, active filling (that is drinking, because Paul contrasts it with drinking wine).

Yes, the food is already available. We don't have to work for it, but we do have to accept it, that is eat it, in a ongoing fashion. Faith is active and in the present, so is obedience, and Jesus said that to obey is also to eat.

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is the reason in bringing up mysticism, StG.

The Old Covenant consisted of daily sacrifice.

The New Covenant was one sacrifice once and for all.

The point in bringing up mysticism is that this approach to spirituality is the way of the Old Covenant. Because with a daily sacrifice there's daily eating and drinking as your thread title states. With Christ's sacrifice, there's one meal that satisfies to eternal life.

Watchman Nee and Witness Lee taught daily sacrifice. Understand that legalism can be spiritualized as well.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

let's see if we can summarize things so far: Some outside the LC do also teach eating Jesus (on a daily basis), but it seems most don't. My opinion is this is because many still try to practice the New Covenant in an Old Covenant (legalistic) kind of way.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Great - me too!

Originally Posted by Jo S

By believing in the one who sent Jesus. Outwardly, it changes.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

how do you pursue Christ on a daily basis?

Originally Posted by Raptor

Back to the purpose of your original post, ..."who emphasizes this besides the LC?" John Piper emphasizes enjoying God, his focus is "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him", so most of his messages always come back to the enjoyment of God. Just a quick search on google, though, and you can find dozens of articles on eating the word, Jesus, etc. Here are some links with a brief quote as a sample below:

Lesson 6. The Word of God: Spiritual Food For Our Souls
https://inductivebible.org/?page_id=216
Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.” (Isaiah 55:1-2, NIV).

You Are What You Eat
https://www.eastsidelutheran.org/ser...-what-you-eat/
This morning in Ezekiel, the Lord instructs us to eat his Word. This is a call for each of us to take stock of both the quantity and the quality of what we put in our brains. And above all, it is an urgent command from God to make his Word the paramount portion of our diet.

The Principles of Eating and Drinking God’s Word in Congregation
https://www.holyspiritspeaks.org/pri...rink-god-word/
One must base his eating and drinking of God’s word on the recognition that God’s word is absolutely the truth, and then he should practice and experience God’s word and receive the Holy Spirit’s illumination and enlightenment to obtain a real understanding.

Eat God's Word - You need to make it your own before you share it with others.
https://diggingtheword.blogspot.com/...gods-word.html
Digging into the word of God can be a great resource if we take it in and and fully digest it so that it is a part of our character and it influences us to stay in line with God's desire for our lives. I need to take in God's word daily, meditate on it and apply it to my life. Then I can be a credible testimony of the life changing power of the gospel.

Learn to Eat God’s Word Or You Will Wind Up Eating Your Own Words
https://www.seedbed.com/learn-eat-go...-eating-words/
To read Scripture with Jesus is to ingest the Word of God, to depend on it as we depend on food. It means to read in a way that nourishes our true and deepest identity as the sons and daughters of God and to interpret it through our lives.

Feeding on the Lord: So Much More Than a Metaphor
https://davidschrock.com/2018/07/12/...an-a-metaphor/
God is our food, our life, our source of soul nourishment. And those who have been born again know what it means to hunger and thirst for the Lord and his righteousness. Just as your hunger drives you to the pantry, the grocery store, or the restaurant, let your spiritual hunger drive you to the Word. Seek to understand it, yes. But even more, seek to enjoy it. For that is why God has given his word! And when we open the pages of Scripture, they are filled with honey to brighten our eyes and bring us closer to God.

Eating The Word Of God
http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/4956
Spiritual Food: The prophet spoke of eating the Word, receiving it inwardly into his soul (Jeremiah 15:16). It is compared to milk (1 Peter 2:2), to honey (Psalm 19:10; 119:103) and to strong food or meat (Hebrews 5:12, 14). Spiritual life is sustained by nourishment from the Word. Growth: As it ministers to our souls, the Word builds us up in our most holy faith (Acts 20:32). Spiritual development requires the food of the Word (1 Peter 2:2).

Eat the Word of God
http://www.flowingfaith.com/2016/10/...rd-of-god.html
Jesus, the Word of God, has the words of eternal life. But the Word of God is also daily bread for our pilgrimage back home to God. Only by reading the Bible we draw strength, hope, and joy for the journey. Also, Only by eating the Word of God we have stamina to endure the hardships on the way home. Also, only by reading the Daily Bread we stay focused on God, centered in Christ, and united in the Holy Spirit.

On Eating and Drinking the Word of God
http://www.goodnews.ie/wordofgod.shtml
We need to chew thoroughly on the Word of God, ....what we need is a renewed determination to feed at the table of God's Word and to drink of its wisdom so that we can become the prophetic people our times so desperately need.

You Become What You Eat
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...e-what-you-eat
Our souls are designed to be nourished by God’s “precious and very great promises”....And Jesus has made the Bible the storehouse of nourishing, living soul food for his saints. It is stocked full of promises, and he invites us to come eat our fill for free (Isaiah 55:1)!

Originally Posted by Raptor

You just answered my question...

Originally Posted by Jo S

= Raptor: "Do you ever spend time to be with the Lord?"
= Jo S:I'll answer you're question but I need you to answer this first;.....

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'll answer you're question but I need you to answer this first;

Do you believe Watchman Nee and Witness Lee served the Gospel and the Lord Jesus of scripture?

Originally Posted by Raptor

Jo S. Do you ever spend time to be with the Lord?

Originally Posted by Raptor

Jo S. Do you ever spend time to be with the Lord?

Originally Posted by Jo S

God is spirit but he's also rational (Isaiah 1:18). You don't need to leave your mind to live by God's spirit. If you do, you're getting into a different spirit altogether.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Seeing as you were a former Catholic, Ohio, I'd thought you'd be in agreement with me on this.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Careful JoS, your questionable eisegesus now opposes the word of God.

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” -- John 6.29

If you study (perhaps eat ) this section in John 6 carefully, you will see that our believing is our eating the word of God.

Originally Posted by Raptor

John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. Rev. 1:10 I was in spirit on the Lord's Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,..Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Galatians 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” -- John 6.29(perhaps eat ) this section in John 6 carefully, you will see that our believing is our eating the word of God.

Originally Posted by Jo S

To recap, your and StG's argument is this; feeding on Christ is something that should be made into a daily exercise. You arrive at this conclusion by equating the language in Matthew 4:4 and John 6.

Originally Posted by Raptor

3. Yes, you do have to "work", John 6:27 Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you;

Originally Posted by Jo S

In other words, I need to get out of my mind and into my spirit. Correct? Sounds familiar....

Originally Posted by Jo S

The same goes with an undisciplined spiritual life. If you continue to tap into the spiritual realm through practice at will and not by God's grace through faith eventually you'll develop bad doctrine and thru that, spiritual illness.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Faith is the Christian's so called work. It's not a spiritual ritual or work of the flesh like meditation, pray-reading, yoga, or chanting. It's faith. That's it. The rest Jesus will provide.

Originally Posted by Jo S

"Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. "

Originally Posted by Jo S

All that to say before you order from the dessert menu, you need to first order a healthy entrée. This is where the real nourishment is found.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Faith is the Christian's so called work. It's not a spiritual ritual or work of the flesh like meditation, pray-reading, yoga, or chanting. It's faith. That's it. The rest Jesus will provide.

"Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. "


All that to say before you order from the dessert menu, you need to first order a healthy entrée. This is where the real nourishment is found.

Originally Posted by Raptor

Jo S, stop analyzing the menu, order the food and eat.

Originally Posted by Raptor

Jo S, stop analyzing the menu, order the food and eat.

1. The RHEMA I have spoken to you are spirit and life. Of course Christ is also the Rhema.
2. You do have to contact the Lord everyday. How good He is!!!! Have you taste Him today, Jo S?
3. Yes, you do have to "work", John 6: 27 Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you;

Jo S, I am going to continue eating and drinking the Lord everyday as a practice until the Lord comes back, and by His mercy, continue eating the tree of life and the hidden manna in the Kingdom.

Originally Posted by Jo S

To recap, your and StG's argument is this; feeding on Christ is something that should be made into a daily exercise. You arrive at this conclusion by equating the language in Matthew 4:4 and John 6.

First thing to understand is the term "bread" in scripture is used in MANY different ways. What you did is you took it's meaning from Matthew 4:4 and superimpose it onto John 6 without properly understanding their contexts. By doing this you're argument makes Christ the Rhema when scripture is clear that Christ is not the Rhema but the Logos. Rhema is continual revelation active in a believer's heart through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As I pointed out, Jesus specifically makes it known his use of feeding language is pointing to his flesh, not God's spoken word or Rhema. "And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh..."

The bible teaches that the spirit is in the blood. When an animal is sacrificed, the flesh is eaten and the blood is discarded. It's known that animals don't have the life of God neither in their flesh nor in their blood. This is why Christ says that flesh by itself counts for nothing because all it can do is sustain physical life.

But what the Jews couldn't understand is unlike animals, Christ's blood does actually contain the life of God. By this association, it makes Christ's flesh also life, the bread of life. So with this Jesus made a shocking statement. He is saying don't discard my blood like you do with animals, but drink it! To the Jews this was an abominable thing as only the pagans make a ritual out of drinking the animals blood.

Simply put, eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood is metaphor teaching that through acceptance of his physical sacrifice as an atonement for our sins, the Holy Spirit or life of God is imparted to us. There's nothing mysterious about that and it doesn't need to be made into a daily ritual. Once Christ is sincerely accepted by an individual through faith and repentance, and you're born again, God works actively in you. This process is called sanctification. All you need to sustain this process is faith, not practice.

Physical food is introduced from the outside and then goes into our bodies but With God's spirit you do not feed on it like regular bread, you live by it and it lives in you. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a Christian, they're sealed. They don't have to work to gain bread or water or whatever spiritual nurishment language you want to use.

You're essentially taking faith and turning it into habit like eating food where God is somewhere out there and so you need to do a ritual or get into a specific frame of mind to bring him in. This mentality turns Christianity into a works based spirituality and it leads to heresy. That's why many mainstream Christian churches don't teach this but if you go to the Catholics or other mystic groups like the LC's, you'll have no trouble finding it there.

If you do research you'll find this teaching is actually derived from mysticism and then made popular through Catholicism. In fact, the Catholics took the same misunderstanding of John 6 and made it into a more ritualistic practice called the eucharist. Yet adhering to the spiritualized version of the eucharist still doesn't make it any more biblical.

To use your restaurant menu analogy, what mysticism does is it orders everything on the menu and then proceeds to eat without any discretion. This mindset and eclectic approach to spirituality started with Watchman Nee.

Originally Posted by Raptor

No, it is not a false equivalency, you are missing several main points, one is the RHEMA:...….

Originally Posted by Jo S

StG, I'm well aware of how mystics view Pharisees (teachers of the law or scholars). Just so you know I'm neither of those two.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Raptor, I'll first start by pointing put that you're taking two different metaphors and blending them together.

However, the first metaphor uses the term "bread" or the Greek "arto" in the context of God's commandments. The second, "artos" alludes to Christ's flesh aka his sacrifice. While the same word for bread is being used (one is of unknown origin, the other known), it's being used in a completely different context. So what you're doing while posing your question is you're making a false equivalency.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. And visa versa.

Originally Posted by Jo S

StG, that advice is also being offered to you. I realize you still have the typical LC mystical outlook on scripture judging from many of your responses. The truth is, you actually have to look out for the bad portions that others offer otherwise you risk making the same mistake Nee made in his loose approach to gaining spiritual knowledge.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well said indeed bro!!

This is a big thing to see! No one group has the "market cornered," and the sooner we realize that and accept the good portion others have, the better we will be able to run the race!

Originally Posted by Jo S

Here's what I see; in the LC's you are taught strong emphasis on the spiritual experience but sorely lack proper biblical interpretative skills. Because of what I see as Nee's and Lee's spiritual pride and prejudices toward the rest of Christendom, they also rejected the more scholarly approach to understanding scripture which the majority of mainstream Christianity adheres to called exegesis. As such, they adopted the more subjective method of reading scripture, eisegesis.

I understand that many Christians focus too much on study rather than experience, but the typical LC member focus too heavily on experience. Having too strong of an emphasis on the spiritual can and will lead to false spirituality, aka mysticism. Being properly grounded in scripture with a more disciplined approach to studying the text helps prevent that from happening. However, going to either extreme means missing the mark. One side eventually becomes like an Ephesus (forgetting the joy they once had in Christ) and the other a Laodicea (claiming they have all the spiritual riches yet remain spiritually blind to the Holy Spirit).

I'm by no means a scholar but I would recommend you guys do exactly what member byHismercy is actively trying to do while studying scriptures; forget everything you were taught in the LC's and start with a fresh new outlook viewing the text through an exegetical lens.

Originally Posted by Raptor

No.

May I ask you, do you believe that man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God, and that Christ is the living bread and that we need to eat Him to live because of Him?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

But as the song says, "In Christ alone I put my trust!" So as with anything, if we focus on that instead of Him, it is a distraction at the very least. For example, we want the "church life" so we focus on that, and that becomes something apart - a distraction - from Him. (And I think that's been said on here too before - hallelujah for the "Wisdom" in the body!)

Originally Posted by Jo S

Interpreting the bible through mysticism makes Christianity sound appealingly mysterious and esoteric but in reality what this does is it twists the truth 180 degrees.

Christ said not to give thought to what we eat or drink. The same is with our spiritual needs. If you have faith in God, He will provide. The ongoing process of sanctification in a Christian's life is a work of God, not a work of our own.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Raptor,

May I ask; do you still meet with the LC's (LSM/GLA)?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hmm, boy I'm glad I only have to eat just once to sustain my physical life! Oh wait, no I dont and no I'm not glad - because I like to eat, and I get to do it a number of times today! If I didn't eat frequently, my energy would suffer greatly (except the energy to find something to eat).

And why do we do the Lord's Table more than once?

And what about drinking - we have to do that even more often . . . is there perhaps a picture there? What I think you're saying sounds a little like the idea that "I've got my ticket punched, now I don't need anything until I go to heaven," doesn't it?

"As the dear panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God." Psalm 42:1

Originally Posted by Jo S

Receiving the Holy Spirit through repentance is a one time event. You don't have to keep eating and drinking. If spiritual gluttony were a term in the bible, I'd use it to describe mysticism. Paul's use of the term "given" in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is denoting a past event, not a continual drinking of the spirit.

When the simplicity of Christ isn't enough for people they tend to over-spiritualize scriptures. This is what the local churches do and this is what mysticism is. It looks for hidden meanings and nuances in the text that simply aren't there.

The bottom line is if you lack repentance toward God yet want to remain "spiritual" you'll always fall into mysticism...

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

(I searched but didn't come up with any threads on here about eating and drinking Jesus, so I thought to start one.)

This was a big theme with the LC back in the day. There are plenty of instances in the word that talk about eating and drinking the Lord, perhaps most famously where Jesus Himself said in John 6:53, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." When He spoke it, it says many were offended and left, and I can certainly see why! Many, many other places talk about eating and/or drinking. The Lord's Table is another famous example and Paul talks about drinking the One Spirit. There's much more in the word about this, of course.

I'm convinced that eating and drinking is something beyond just a mental comprehension, and is something of the Spirit that actually nourishes our spirit deep within. Many times, it seems, this nourishing is something that's connected to my mouth, that is I often get more fed spiritually, when speaking the word or singing or praying aloud.

But I have to say that the LC is one of the few places that I've heard about this (except here in Scottsdale) over the years. Different ones certainly mention the significance of the Lord's Table, but I don't know I've heard eating and drinking related much to my daily walk with Christ - that is, to eat Him on a daily basis that I might live by Him.

Now in reading certain authors (T. Austin Sparks comes to mind, Andrew Murray and maybe Piper) they certainly speak regarding this matter of eating to be strengthened into the inner man and to live Christ daily. But I've been to a few places and have been exposed to a fair amount of Christian radio and TV, and I can't remember when I've heard this specific teaching.

Any-a-ways - I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss.