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08-26-2011 01:20 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Accusation in FPR found to be false
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
WL: Before I went to Irving in December 1987, I had an elders’ meeting with the leading ones in Southern California. During that meeting, John Smith stood up to say that numbers do not represent anything, and he went on to mention things such as statistics, budgets, work, and activity. By that time Rosemead had already rebelled, and this kind of speaking was a repetition of what was spoken there as accusations. By listening to all the sharing in that elders’ meeting in Orange County, I realized that the whole situation had been poisoned by John Ingalls.” (p. 59, FPR).

John Ingalls shares too about that same meeting –

On the evening of Monday, December 14, 1987, Brother Lee called a meeting of the elders of Southern California. There was a fair number there representing most of the churches in the area. After prayer, Brother Lee opened the fellowship by giving a long word concerning the new way and its great success in Taiwan. Then he asked for fellowship from the brothers, desiring especially to know how successful the new way had been in their locality. Dick Taylor, an elder in Long Beach, started with a lively, full-of enjoyment kind of testimony, such as Dick is well-known for, thanking the Lord for the door-knocking and the Gospel preaching in Long Beach, but ending with an honest word about the depression and the discouragement among some of the saints. This was unusual for Dick but he was telling it like it was. Other brothers followed who also spoke very honestly about dissensions concerning the new way and discouragement among the saints in their localities, for which they were very concerned. In some places divisions had arisen over the new way. John Smith, an elder in San Diego, ended the time of sharing with an honest account of his concerns for the saints in his church, mentioning how he feared that with the overemphasis on methods, numbers, and increase the saints would become activity-centered instead of Christ-centered. What was extraordinary was the elders speaking up in such an honest and forthright way, knowing that such reports were not what Brother Lee liked or wanted to hear. We were not accustomed to doing this due partly to a sense of intimidation. To my knowledge this was the first time that had been done. This was encouraging. But Brother Lee was visibly bothered, and later reacted strongly to the brothers’ speaking, saying of one brother’s sharing (John Smith’s) that it was like pouring iced water on him.

We were not the only ones who went to Brother Lee with our concerns during these days. We heard that Dan Towle, individually, and Frank Scavo together with Dick Taylor also went to see Brother Lee to express to him their concerns about the present situation. (p. 103)

Witness Lee on the same meeting:
Before I went to Irving in December 1987, I had an elders’ meeting with the leading ones in Southern California. During that meeting, John Smith stood up to say that numbers do not represent anything, and he went on to mention things such as statistics, budgets, work, and activity. By that time Rosemead had already rebelled, and this kind of speaking was a repetition of what was spoken there as accusations. By listening to all the sharing in that elders’ meeting in Orange County, I realized that the whole situation had been poisoned by John Ingalls.” (p. 59, FPR).

This was Brother Lee’s reaction to brothers who shared from their heart about serious problems in their localities. He gave the impression that his own objectives were more important than listening to the Body and to the concerns of responsible elders for their localities. These speakings by Dick Taylor, John Smith, and others were from their own experience and had not been influenced by John Ingalls.

Contrary to official assertions, John Ingalls had both legitimate and genuine concerns that he presented to other brothers for fellowship. If the concerns did not exist in the recovery, there would have been no need for John to make special contact with the brothers. What was interpreted as a “poisoning” was simply the elders responding to concerns for the saints, as morale began to sink and divisions began to develop. John Ingalls was not responsible for this. Throughout the recovery, brothers shared many of the same concerns. John Ingalls was faithful to address those concerns. Let the responsibility for the troubles in Rosemead, San Diego, and so forth lie with its source in Anaheim and in Irving, with the tandem leadership of Lee & son, and with LSM.
Jesus is the faithful and true witness. I find it very ironic that the same group that drives people out of their little group for sharing faithfully the truth is the same group talking about “seeing the light”. Something else that is clear is that the works in the LRC are luke warm. No doubt, the “new way” was an attempt to remedy this, but look at the unanimous rejection by saints to preach the gospel. This is supposed to be the leaders of the entire LRC sitting around in this meeting and it is so wretched and miserable. WL is whining about someone pouring cold water on him for speaking the truth? What about prayer, what about fellowship? No, they choose to scapegoat those that were faithful and true witnesses! And this is the group that talks about “poor” Christianity? This is the group that tells everyone else they are blind and need the light? I think when they appear before the Lord’s judgement seat they will be naked. I hope that all of us posting on this forum have repented of this group. I think we all need to open up to Jesus, the Amen. We often hope that the road will be short, quick and painless, but if not, so be it. The second thing I learn from this is to hold onto Jesus the faithful and true witness. So what if you get railroaded out of this pathetic excuse for God’s embassy on Earth. At least you will still be holding onto Jesus. Finally, a word of hope, Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, not WL, not WN, not the LRC. If God is going to call something into being it will be through Jesus.
08-26-2011 12:26 PM
Indiana
Re: Group-think
Terry's post speaks volumes to the problem this thread addresses regarding the LC. And the group-think article in the link is a great aid to the understanding of the phenomenon of a near entire group disposed to calling light darkness and darkness light.
08-26-2011 11:50 AM
TLFisher
Re: John and Bill in trouble from the get-go
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
LET ME TELL YOU, THE BODY WILL REJECT WHAT YOU ARE THINKING BETWEEN YOUR EARS...AND IF YOU DON’T HAVE A TURN ABOUT IT THEN YOU ARE GONE AND I DON’T WANT TO SEE THAT…YOU’VE GOTTA HAVE A TURN AND I DON’T KNOW IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF IT…I KNOW YOU NEED LIGHT, I KNOW YOU NEED A LOT OF LIGHT. AND YOU DON’T HAVE IT. IF THE LORD IS MERCIFUL THEN YOU WILL GET LIGHT AND YOU WILL COME AND MEET WITH ALL THE ELDERS AND YOU WILL HAVE A DIFF MINDSET ALTOGETHER
This ties back into an article from PriestlyScribe's website. The name of the article is Group Think: A Sinister Snare for Elders and Congregations Alike

http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_audi...tionsAlike.pdf

Light meaning, "Steve, you need to adopt our concepts as your own". The brother has taken out of context what light is. Light is not group think. God is light.
1 John 1:5-10
"This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

This brother mentioned the body will reject what Steve is thinking. Once again the body is taken out of context. His thinking is LSM local churches=the Body of Christ. Just like the former Exclusive Brethren brother I spent time with, EB's as with the LSM/LC think they have the pulse of the Body. Not so. The Body of Christ is far more broad and expansive than the LSM brand or the Exclusive Brethren brand. The Body includes Christians meeting in non-denominations, denominations, home fellowships, etc. If Steve's concepts are wrong and to be rejected by the Body of Christ, this brother would have gone next door to the Presbyterian congregation to gain their rejection of Steve.
Go back and read 1 Corinthians 12 & 13. Even if I disagreed what Steve is thinking, OBW, Ohio, Znp, Awareness, and so forth, they are still members of the Body. Because I am part of the Body, I cannot say to them or any other member of the Body, "I have no need of you".
08-26-2011 11:06 AM
Indiana
Re: Accusation in FPR found to be false
WL: Before I went to Irving in December 1987, I had an elders’ meeting with the leading ones in Southern California. During that meeting, John Smith stood up to say that numbers do not represent anything, and he went on to mention things such as statistics, budgets, work, and activity. By that time Rosemead had already rebelled, and this kind of speaking was a repetition of what was spoken there as accusations. By listening to all the sharing in that elders’ meeting in Orange County, I realized that the whole situation had been poisoned by John Ingalls.” (p. 59, FPR).

John Ingalls shares too about that same meeting –

On the evening of Monday, December 14, 1987, Brother Lee called a meeting of the elders of Southern California. There was a fair number there representing most of the churches in the area. After prayer, Brother Lee opened the fellowship by giving a long word concerning the new way and its great success in Taiwan. Then he asked for fellowship from the brothers, desiring especially to know how successful the new way had been in their locality. Dick Taylor, an elder in Long Beach, started with a lively, full-of enjoyment kind of testimony, such as Dick is well-known for, thanking the Lord for the door-knocking and the Gospel preaching in Long Beach, but ending with an honest word about the depression and the discouragement among some of the saints. This was unusual for Dick but he was telling it like it was. Other brothers followed who also spoke very honestly about dissensions concerning the new way and discouragement among the saints in their localities, for which they were very concerned. In some places divisions had arisen over the new way. John Smith, an elder in San Diego, ended the time of sharing with an honest account of his concerns for the saints in his church, mentioning how he feared that with the overemphasis on methods, numbers, and increase the saints would become activity-centered instead of Christ-centered. What was extraordinary was the elders speaking up in such an honest and forthright way, knowing that such reports were not what Brother Lee liked or wanted to hear. We were not accustomed to doing this due partly to a sense of intimidation. To my knowledge this was the first time that had been done. This was encouraging. But Brother Lee was visibly bothered, and later reacted strongly to the brothers’ speaking, saying of one brother’s sharing (John Smith’s) that it was like pouring iced water on him.

We were not the only ones who went to Brother Lee with our concerns during these days. We heard that Dan Towle, individually, and Frank Scavo together with Dick Taylor also went to see Brother Lee to express to him their concerns about the present situation. (p. 103)

Witness Lee on the same meeting:
Before I went to Irving in December 1987, I had an elders’ meeting with the leading ones in Southern California. During that meeting, John Smith stood up to say that numbers do not represent anything, and he went on to mention things such as statistics, budgets, work, and activity. By that time Rosemead had already rebelled, and this kind of speaking was a repetition of what was spoken there as accusations. By listening to all the sharing in that elders’ meeting in Orange County, I realized that the whole situation had been poisoned by John Ingalls.” (p. 59, FPR).

This was Brother Lee’s reaction to brothers who shared from their heart about serious problems in their localities. He gave the impression that his own objectives were more important than listening to the Body and to the concerns of responsible elders for their localities. These speakings by Dick Taylor, John Smith, and others were from their own experience and had not been influenced by John Ingalls.

Contrary to official assertions, John Ingalls had both legitimate and genuine concerns that he presented to other brothers for fellowship. If the concerns did not exist in the recovery, there would have been no need for John to make special contact with the brothers. What was interpreted as a “poisoning” was simply the elders responding to concerns for the saints, as morale began to sink and divisions began to develop. John Ingalls was not responsible for this. Throughout the recovery, brothers shared many of the same concerns. John Ingalls was faithful to address those concerns. Let the responsibility for the troubles in Rosemead, San Diego, and so forth lie with its source in Anaheim and in Irving, with the tandem leadership of Lee & son, and with LSM.
08-26-2011 06:55 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: John and Bill in trouble from the get-go
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
The LC leader continues. (He is considered a blending brother (on the longer list because geographically he was not close to WL as the short list BBs were in Anaheim).

Here he goes, bringing up JI again in ignorant fashion.


I CAN TELL YOU HAVE A CERTAIN MINDSET AND I THINK I HAVE SAID ALL I NEED TO SAY.

LET ME TELL YOU, THE BODY WILL REJECT WHAT YOU ARE THINKING BETWEEN YOUR EARS...AND IF YOU DON’T HAVE A TURN ABOUT IT THEN YOU ARE GONE AND I DON’T WANT TO SEE THAT…YOU’VE GOTTA HAVE A TURN AND I DON’T KNOW IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF IT…I KNOW YOU NEED LIGHT, I KNOW YOU NEED A LOT OF LIGHT. AND YOU DON’T HAVE IT. IF THE LORD IS MERCIFUL THEN YOU WILL GET LIGHT AND YOU WILL COME AND MEET WITH ALL THE ELDERS AND YOU WILL HAVE A DIFF MINDSET ALTOGETHER

I HAVEN’T TALKED TO THEM BECAUSE I’M NOT SUPPOSED TO...BECAUSE THOSE BROS HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED, DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUARANTINE MEANS? LET’S LOOK THAT UP IN THE DICTIONARY RIGHT NOW. DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUARANTINE MEANS? THE CONCLUSION HAD BEEN DRAWN BY 45 CHURCHES AND A NUMBER OF BROS IN THE SOUTHERN CAL CHURCHES THAT JOHN INGALLS HAS POISONED AND THOSE WHO WERE WITH HIM, SUCH AS, JOHN SMITH,..BILL F CONDEMNED ALL THESE BROS FOR BLASTING BLEE, PUBLICLY IN SCOTTSDALE BECAUSE THEY ARE AGAINST BLEE AND AGAINST THIS MINISTRY. IF YOU DON’T LIKE THE WAY THEY ARE DOING IT BE A GENTLEMAN AND JUST PULL AWAY.DO WHAT SUITS YOUR HEART..THAT’S WHAT BILL DID..JOHN AND THOSE BROS ARE IN TROUBLE FROM THE GET GO
Well, I for one am finding this very enlightening. I think this definitely lends credence to those that argue that the LRC is a cult. I would think this would give the DCP pause, do they really want these posts looked at by a judge in a courtroom?
08-25-2011 08:49 PM
Indiana
Re: John and Bill in trouble from the get-go
The LC leader continues. (He is considered a blending brother (on the longer list because geographically he was not close to WL as the short list BBs were in Anaheim).

Here he goes, bringing up JI again in ignorant fashion.


I CAN TELL YOU HAVE A CERTAIN MINDSET AND I THINK I HAVE SAID ALL I NEED TO SAY.

LET ME TELL YOU, THE BODY WILL REJECT WHAT YOU ARE THINKING BETWEEN YOUR EARS...AND IF YOU DON’T HAVE A TURN ABOUT IT THEN YOU ARE GONE AND I DON’T WANT TO SEE THAT…YOU’VE GOTTA HAVE A TURN AND I DON’T KNOW IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF IT…I KNOW YOU NEED LIGHT, I KNOW YOU NEED A LOT OF LIGHT. AND YOU DON’T HAVE IT. IF THE LORD IS MERCIFUL THEN YOU WILL GET LIGHT AND YOU WILL COME AND MEET WITH ALL THE ELDERS AND YOU WILL HAVE A DIFF MINDSET ALTOGETHER

I HAVEN’T TALKED TO THEM BECAUSE I’M NOT SUPPOSED TO...BECAUSE THOSE BROS HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED, DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUARANTINE MEANS? LET’S LOOK THAT UP IN THE DICTIONARY RIGHT NOW. DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUARANTINE MEANS? THE CONCLUSION HAD BEEN DRAWN BY 45 CHURCHES AND A NUMBER OF BROS IN THE SOUTHERN CAL CHURCHES THAT JOHN INGALLS HAS POISONED AND THOSE WHO WERE WITH HIM, SUCH AS, JOHN SMITH,..BILL F CONDEMNED ALL THESE BROS FOR BLASTING BLEE, PUBLICLY IN SCOTTSDALE BECAUSE THEY ARE AGAINST BLEE AND AGAINST THIS MINISTRY. IF YOU DON’T LIKE THE WAY THEY ARE DOING IT BE A GENTLEMAN AND JUST PULL AWAY.DO WHAT SUITS YOUR HEART..THAT’S WHAT BILL DID..JOHN AND THOSE BROS ARE IN TROUBLE FROM THE GET GO
08-25-2011 03:13 PM
Ohio
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
I couldn't care less about the first part of this (of course the Blendeds don't want open discussions regarding Witness Lee and the Local Church) but I would like to know more about the second part. Where do you get your information from? Please let us all know, or if you want you can send me a PM.
It's on their published prayer list. Do you see that post?
08-25-2011 01:25 PM
TLFisher
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
As I said, the current Blendeds are all accomplices to crimes, a host of lies and unrighteousnesses committed to various men of God like Ingalls, and then thrust upon an unsuspecting Recovery full of trusting saints. If every saint knew what I knew, LSM would be shut down today. So, it's no wonder that the Blendeds have no desire to reconcile. It's also no wonder that the Blendeds hope to shut down this internet site, and has assigned its legal team at DCP to do so.
It's more than just those that were quarantined. In my mind those brothers have gone on quite well since 1990 and probably wouldn't want to go back. It's not about the blendeds either. They have too much at stake. Those that left on their own because it was too divisive to remain. No question those that left and those that were quarantined probably have family or family friends still meeting with the LSM local churches. There lies a barrier for any communication; the fear of being poisoned or as I see having the veil removed. As you pointed out Ohio, that was your experience.

As I said the blendeds have too much at stake. Not knowing where their living comes from, I suppose some are supported financially by LSM. So LSM's financial well-being is in their best interest. Without LSM's financial support, what would they do? So it's a given the blendeds have to repeat the same message that's been repeated for the last 20+ years.

Ironically I met with my pastor yesterday for 2.5 hours and he was brought up in the exlusive brethren. Much of what's been said on this forum and concerns I raised about the local churches, for him the terminology is different, but the results are the same as the Exclusive Brethren.
08-25-2011 11:30 AM
awareness
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I believe it is impossible to truly hate someone unless you first loved them. Based on that, I would have to say that Awareness must have truly been in love with the LRC at one point.
Yes, you are right, until I discovered that God wasn't running the show...
08-25-2011 08:52 AM
UntoHim
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
It's also no wonder that the Blendeds hope to shut down this internet site, and has assigned its legal team at DCP to do so.
I couldn't care less about the first part of this (of course the Blendeds don't want open discussions regarding Witness Lee and the Local Church) but I would like to know more about the second part. Where do you get your information from? Please let us all know, or if you want you can send me a PM.
08-25-2011 08:42 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
It's also no wonder that the Blendeds hope to shut down this internet site, and has assigned its legal team at DCP to do so.
Shut down this internet site? But why?

Recently when we were discussing RG's book "Lord thou saidst" I was considering the DSK case. Now when that maid first made her allegations and they were backed up with camera evidence, eyewitness accounts, and a forensic rape kit I thought to myself (she needs some serious help because this guy will destroy her credibility with everything that he has). Sure enough, credibility destroyed, case dismissed.

No one is denying that he raped her. What they are saying is that since she has no credibility anymore, they can't convict.

This is why I would encourage everyone to keep these two things in mind, doesn't matter in our legal system if they are guilty, what will first go on trial is the credibility of the accuser. 2nd expect the worst (legal assault from our dear friends at the LSM) and hope for the best (an intervention of God, preferably lightening).
08-25-2011 08:35 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
They don't want those that have left to come back. They consider them poison.

And I agree with them. Cuz there's got to be something wrong with anyone that would want to go back into the LSM run churches...
I believe it is impossible to truly hate someone unless you first loved them. Based on that, I would have to say that Awareness must have truly been in love with the LRC at one point.
08-25-2011 06:14 AM
Ohio
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
LSM doesn't want JI back. Please, think this thing thru. RK, KR and EM don't have a shred of credibility compared to JI. Imagine if they confessed that they had covered up gross sins and saw JI's stand as an opportunity to take over LSM. Can you imagine if JI, BM and JS returned as those that took a stand for righteousness and the LSM flunkies were exposed for what they are?
Well said ZNP. If you don't understand his post, then you don't understand the quarantine.

These Blendeds will never even consider reconciliation. They are accomplices to numerous crimes. To even remove Ingall's name from the Quarantine List is to open Pandora's Box.

For years WL and LSM have talked about the saints being "poisoned" by the negative "opposers." Often, during my tenure in the LC, I heard how dangerous this "poison" was. Saints who were poisoned, would instantly and dramatically be changed for the worse. These saints would instantly become "negative" against the Recovery. Hence, the strong need to "inoculate" the saints, that the "poison" would never make them "sick."

So I often wondered what this "poison" could be. I was somewhat familiar with all the complaints by the opposition, including the books against the Recovery and Moran's website. I never considered any of those protests to rise to the level of "poison." Sure they might scare the outsiders concerning the Recovery, but that nonsense about modalism would never affect the saints.

Back in 2005, as I was researching the first Brethren division of 1848 as it pertained to the quarantine of TC, I stumbled across the Bereans Forum. I read what really happened during the quarantine of 1990. I read the accounts of Ingalls, Mallon, So, and others. I got "poisoned." I now understood what WL was talking about. Yes, indeed, my views of WL changed overnight!

As I said, the current Blendeds are all accomplices to crimes, a host of lies and unrighteousnesses committed to various men of God like Ingalls, and then thrust upon an unsuspecting Recovery full of trusting saints. If every saint knew what I knew, LSM would be shut down today. So, it's no wonder that the Blendeds have no desire to reconcile. It's also no wonder that the Blendeds hope to shut down this internet site, and has assigned its legal team at DCP to do so.
08-25-2011 06:10 AM
awareness
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
LSM doesn't want JI back. Please, think this thing thru. RK, KR and EM don't have a shred of credibility compared to JI. Imagine if they confessed that they had covered up gross sins and saw JI's stand as an opportunity to take over LSM. Can you imagine if JI, BM and JS returned as those that took a stand for righteousness and the LSM flunkies were exposed for what they are?
Hosepipe went back in Ft. Lauderdale and was told he had to be silent in the meetings.

Another brother went back and was drilled so hard by the elders that he never went back again.

They don't want those that have left to come back. They consider them poison.

And I agree with them. Cuz there's got to be something wrong with anyone that would want to go back into the LSM run churches...
08-24-2011 08:37 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
There is no one in the recovery who can tell you who I or you cannot contact. To say it is not your place or place to contact, my response would be "who are you? Anyone can and I have."
These brothers are receptive and accomodating.
John Ingalls needs to come back and settle matters? How about the southern Cal brothers need to settle with him.
Of course with this type of stronghold, one side expecting the other to capitulate nothing will be resolved. At least not until God's judgment. Someone needs to step forward and extend an olive branch to initiate communication.
LSM doesn't want JI back. Please, think this thing thru. RK, KR and EM don't have a shred of credibility compared to JI. Imagine if they confessed that they had covered up gross sins and saw JI's stand as an opportunity to take over LSM. Can you imagine if JI, BM and JS returned as those that took a stand for righteousness and the LSM flunkies were exposed for what they are?
08-24-2011 08:34 PM
Indiana
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
...Of course with this type of stronghold, one side expecting the other to capitulate nothing will be resolved. At least not until God's judgment. Someone needs to step forward and extend an olive branch to initiate communication.
It must be pointed out that there are many former leading brothers, including JI, BM, Al Knoch, and Ken Unger who are MORE than willing to come together with those in the LC leadership to have fellowship over the matters that separate them, and have fellowship restored (to some degree at least). But it is altogether a different story with the LSM brothers. They will not even come together unless they hear that these brothers are willing and ready to "repent". Then, yes, they would gladly receive them to begin fellowship unto restoration.

I could give consistent examples of what I just stated. There is a mindset to be dealt with among the LSM and that is where the stronghold lies.

As Terry said, he found JI and BM to be accommodating and loving, and it would be the same if LSM brothers met with them. Anyone is welcome to fellowship with them; their heart is open and so is their home.
08-24-2011 08:10 PM
TLFisher
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
His last three sentences don't make sense to me. In fact, throughout our conversation I realized he did not know what he was talking about. That is because LSM did not educate him. They do not educate the elders according to facts, but according to their agenda. The facts have been kept hidden from the elders even to this day. But they are not kept hidden on this forum. Elders can come here and read and be informed.
This has been my feeling for the last 5-10 years if not more. Local elders are kept uninformed. Likewise, brothers and sisters in their respective localities are kept uninformed. Local elders are told on a need to know basis. Transparency would prove to be counterproductive to the ministry.
08-24-2011 08:02 PM
TLFisher
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post

…WHAT MAKES YOU THINK IT IS YOUR PLACE TO CONTACT THOSE BROTHERS. WELL ITS NOT YOUR PLACE TO DO THAT. JOHN INGALLS NEEDS TO COME BACK AND SETTLE MATTERS WITH THE SOUTHERN CAL BROS.
There is no one in the recovery who can tell you who I or you cannot contact. To say it is not your place or place to contact, my response would be "who are you? Anyone can and I have."
These brothers are receptive and accomodating.
John Ingalls needs to come back and settle matters? How about the southern Cal brothers need to settle with him.
Of course with this type of stronghold, one side expecting the other to capitulate nothing will be resolved. At least not until God's judgment. Someone needs to step forward and extend an olive branch to initiate communication.
08-24-2011 07:29 PM
Indiana
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
The same conversation continues in these two paragraphs, showing only the LC elder speaking.


I WILL GUARANTEE YOU THAT YOUR MINDSET IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY AND UTTERLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY. THIS IS NOT OFFICIAL, THIS IS OFF THE RECORD, BECAUSE I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING STEVE, I DON’T WANT TO SEE YOU OUT OF THE RECOVERY.

…WHAT MAKES YOU THINK IT IS YOUR PLACE TO CONTACT THOSE BROTHERS. WELL ITS NOT YOUR PLACE TO DO THAT. JOHN INGALLS NEEDS TO COME BACK AND SETTLE MATTERS WITH THE SOUTHERN CAL BROS. HE AND ALL THOSE BROS. THEY KNOW WHAT HE DID DOWN THERE, WHAT HE SAID, THEY KNOW WHAT JOHN AND BILL MALLON SAID WHAT KEN UNGER SAID AND WHAT AL KNOCH SAID….LISTEN THEY ARE ALL QUARANTINED, ITS JUST NOT OFFICIAL. WHEN THEY QUARANTINED JOHN, WE SPOKE VERBALLY, ITS LIKE IN EGYPT WHEN THEY KILLED THE FIRSTBORN? ALL THEY WANTED TO DO WAS DEAL WITH JOHN AND IT BECOMES TRUE WITH ALL OF THEM, INCLUDING JOSEPH FUNG AND JOHN SO…

He seems not to understand the quarantine. His last three sentences don't make sense to me. In fact, throughout our conversation I realized he did not know what he was talking about. That is because LSM does not educate the elders according to facts of the late eighties turmoil; rather, they keep them in darkness according to their agenda.

Concerning the Quarantine, clearly four men were q'd. And this, according to the misconstrued understanding of 198 uneducated leaders from 45 CA churches. Their letter of Q goes into "detail" about each of the four.

http://www.twoturmoils.com/quarantin...teeighties.pdf

1990 Letter of Quarantine excerpt:
"Since the fall of 1987, the churches here have suffered under the dissension and rebellion led by four brothers who were once among us: Joseph Fung, John So, Bill Mallon, and John Ingalls. In the beginning many things were done and said by these brothers in a way that was both subtle and hidden. As a result, a number of saints were deceived and thus did not know the true nature of what was taking place. Today, however, there is no question about where these brothers stand. We do not like to see any more of the saints damaged by opening themselves innocently to the words spoke by these brothers.

Therefore, we feel that we must warn the churches of the true standing of these four and their followers.
These four brothers 1) have denied the standing of the churches in the Lord’s recovery..."

[/COLOR]http://www.twoturmoils.com/quarantin...teeighties.pdf
08-24-2011 05:08 PM
RollingStone
Re: Further demonstration of the Sectarian Mindset of LC leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Some brothers, however, refused to leave without an "escort."
If you mean shown where the door is I understand "escort" Previous to my LC experience I was in another setting I was told that my wife and I were servants of Beelzabub by the pastor and his coaster wife after they had stayed up praying all night about us. My wife sobbed uncontrolably as the spirit with in me was jumping up and down with joy. As I was going WOW! inside this is what the religous leaders said to Jesus. a few weeks later when I stood up for us against the pastor and his wife and 15 elders at a meeting where we were falsly accused of things I knew were not true. Again my wife was sobbing but the co-pastor wife spoke a little too much and some of the truth slipped out. Upon realizing his wife had mispoke he told us we knew where the door was. Praise the Lord! I didn't let it hit me in the butt.

My point is from my experience this happens all over the place not just in the LSM situation. I met a man who had been rejected by the Reformed Brethren Church here over 45 yrs ago,, When I met him he was about 75 and living in a small house big enough for 1 person that he had built next to the home he had shared with his wife and 7 children before he questioned some of the things that the authorities in the Reformed Brethrens doctrine. They proceeded to inform his wife that if she was intimate with her husband she would go to hell. So she kicked him out of the bedroom. Then they told her that if she ate meals with him that she would go to hell. You already can figure out what happened. Then she was told if he had a relationship with his children then they would go to hell. So he built a tiny house just for him next to his home, wife and kids and he suffered for the next 40 yrs being reject by them. Of course the wife benefited from the approval of her stand from the church as they also rejected him for 40 yrs.

He went to the church leaders and begged them to allow him to have his wife and family back, they refused. He went to Reformed Brethren Churches all over the USA and Canada looking for someone to help but they refused as they didn't want to get involved in a local matter. He went to the courts legally to try to get his wife and family back they refused to rule on the matter as they felt that this was a church matter and didn't want to mix church and state. He protested to the point of getting arrested and put in jail for trying to get support and understanding from the community for his plight. He did get his story in the local newspaper.

He showed me and gave me a book he had authored about his story which I still have. The book is not distributed yet as his wish is that it be distributed after his death. I admired this man for suffering so long and enduring so long, without the affection of his wife, children and community for 40 yrs. He still loves his wife and desires to be with her. At that time I shared Christ with him and talked to him about having fellowship with us in the LC. He asked me a few questions about us and I figured out these were the questions that applied to the doctrines that he believed and were what the Reformed Brethren Church believed and I figured out after how they had mistreated him he still believed in their belief system and in his heart he still viewed himself as a Reformed Brethren. He never did come and meet with us. Jesus said if they don't receive you to shake the dust off your sandels and move on. I used to think this was applied to those who didn't believe the gospel, now I am considering if it doesn't apply to those who put religion and their work above their compassion and love for all the members of the body. I have been treated like a leper, called Beelzabub, quaranteed, seen people act like they are demon possesed. Lord Jesus I think I need a new pair of shoes!
08-24-2011 08:50 AM
TLFisher
Re: Further demonstration of the Sectarian Mindset of LC leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Can we have some background info on this post ... who is talking to who?
As I read, text in caps is the brother speaking to Steve.
08-24-2011 06:10 AM
Ohio
Re: Further demonstration of the Sectarian Mindset of LC leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
This is not true! I was not quarantined! I left!
Some brothers, however, refused to leave without an "escort."
08-24-2011 05:55 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Further demonstration of the Sectarian Mindset of LC leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
The following is more demonstration of the mentality, esp of leaders that plagues the Local Churches. I heard these things, and more in a shocking conversation with such a leader.


…LET ME FINISH MY OFFICIAL REMARKS HERE, YOUR LIBERTY TO CONTACT THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED WHEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE HAVING THAT LIBERTY….
WE REALLY KNOW A LOT OF DETAILS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS FROM THESE OTHER BROTHERS, YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW, BUT YOU MAY KNOW, BUT THE POINT IS THIS, YOUR MINDSET IN ALL OF THIS, YOU BELIEVE ME, IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY REJECTED IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, THOROUGHLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY..NOW THAT’S WHAT’S IN YOUR MIND, THAT’S YOUR THOUGHT YOUR CONCEPT ABOUT IT ALL, THAT’S WHAT HAS TO GO..NOW WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF BROS WHO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS AND TOOK SOMETHING ON IN THEIR MIND AND THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE RIGHT BUT EVENTUALLY THEY MAYBE COULD SEE THAT THEY WERE NOT RIGHT AND THE LORD COULD SHINE AND THERE COULD BE SOME DEALING WITH THE LORD AND THERE COULD BE A TURN IN THE MIND. THAT’S WHAT REPENTANCE REALLY IS, IT MEANS THAT YOU’VE SEEN...WHEN THAT HAPPENS EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN YOU COME AROUND PEOPLE. IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN, I DO BELIEVE THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO BE RESTORED..NOW IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN STEVE YOU WILL BE REJECTED WITH ALL OF YOUR CONCEPTS BECAUSE IT’S THE CONCEPTS WE CAN’T HANDLE..THE CONCEPTS HAVE TO GO ..IF YOU GO WITH THEM ITS UP TO YOU AND ITS UP TO THE LORD’S MERCY, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU BELIEVE FULLY THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS, ALL OF THIS. I BELIEVE THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT IT. BUT NOBODY ELSE THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT EXCEPT FOR THESE PEOPLE WE QUARANTINED.

(He had said before this: NOW THIS IS THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT. YOU MAY DISAGREE AND I’M SURE YOU DO...LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING UNOFFICIALLY, STEVE YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR LETTER THAT SOME FEEL RESPECTFULLY THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOBLE., THEN YOU LISTED KEN UNGER, JOHN INGALLS AND BILL MALLON, YET IT WAS A WHO’S WHO OF THE QUARANTINED BROTHERS.)
This is not true! I was not quarantined! I left!
08-24-2011 05:19 AM
Ohio
Re: Further demonstration of the Sectarian Mindset of LC leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
The following is more demonstration of the mentality, esp of leaders that plagues the Local Churches. I heard these things, and more in a shocking conversation with such a leader.


…LET ME FINISH MY OFFICIAL REMARKS HERE, YOUR LIBERTY TO CONTACT THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED WHEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE HAVING THAT LIBERTY….
WE REALLY KNOW A LOT OF DETAILS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS FROM THESE OTHER BROTHERS, YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW, BUT YOU MAY KNOW, BUT THE POINT IS THIS, YOUR MINDSET IN ALL OF THIS, YOU BELIEVE ME, IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY REJECTED IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, THOROUGHLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY..NOW THAT’S WHAT’S IN YOUR MIND, THAT’S YOUR THOUGHT YOUR CONCEPT ABOUT IT ALL, THAT’S WHAT HAS TO GO..NOW WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF BROS WHO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS AND TOOK SOMETHING ON IN THEIR MIND AND THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE RIGHT BUT EVENTUALLY THEY MAYBE COULD SEE THAT THEY WERE NOT RIGHT AND THE LORD COULD SHINE AND THERE COULD BE SOME DEALING WITH THE LORD AND THERE COULD BE A TURN IN THE MIND. THAT’S WHAT REPENTANCE REALLY IS, IT MEANS THAT YOU’VE SEEN...WHEN THAT HAPPENS EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN YOU COME AROUND PEOPLE. IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN, I DO BELIEVE THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO BE RESTORED..NOW IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN STEVE YOU WILL BE REJECTED WITH ALL OF YOUR CONCEPTS BECAUSE IT’S THE CONCEPTS WE CAN’T HANDLE..THE CONCEPTS HAVE TO GO ..IF YOU GO WITH THEM ITS UP TO YOU AND ITS UP TO THE LORD’S MERCY, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU BELIEVE FULLY THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS, ALL OF THIS. I BELIEVE THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT IT. BUT NOBODY ELSE THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT EXCEPT FOR THESE PEOPLE WE QUARANTINED.

(He had said before this: NOW THIS IS THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT. YOU MAY DISAGREE AND I’M SURE YOU DO...LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING UNOFFICIALLY, STEVE YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR LETTER THAT SOME FEEL RESPECTFULLY THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOBLE., THEN YOU LISTED KEN UNGER, JOHN INGALLS AND BILL MALLON, YET IT WAS A WHO’S WHO OF THE QUARANTINED BROTHERS.)
Can we have some background info on this post ... who is talking to who?

Can you also remove the CAPS LOCK? It is so hard for me to read this.
08-23-2011 08:58 PM
awareness
Re: Further demonstration of the Sectarian Mindset of LC leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
The following is more demonstration of the mentality, esp of leaders that plagues the Local Churches. I heard these things, and more in a shocking conversation with such a leader.


…LET ME FINISH MY OFFICIAL REMARKS HERE, YOUR LIBERTY TO CONTACT THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED WHEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE HAVING THAT LIBERTY….
WE REALLY KNOW A LOT OF DETAILS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS FROM THESE OTHER BROTHERS, YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW, BUT YOU MAY KNOW, BUT THE POINT IS THIS, YOUR MINDSET IN ALL OF THIS, YOU BELIEVE ME, IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY REJECTED IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, THOROUGHLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY..NOW THAT’S WHAT’S IN YOUR MIND, THAT’S YOUR THOUGHT YOUR CONCEPT ABOUT IT ALL, THAT’S WHAT HAS TO GO..NOW WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF BROS WHO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS AND TOOK SOMETHING ON IN THEIR MIND AND THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE RIGHT BUT EVENTUALLY THEY MAYBE COULD SEE THAT THEY WERE NOT RIGHT AND THE LORD COULD SHINE AND THERE COULD BE SOME DEALING WITH THE LORD AND THERE COULD BE A TURN IN THE MIND. THAT’S WHAT REPENTANCE REALLY IS, IT MEANS THAT YOU’VE SEEN...WHEN THAT HAPPENS EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN YOU COME AROUND PEOPLE. IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN, I DO BELIEVE THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO BE RESTORED..NOW IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN STEVE YOU WILL BE REJECTED WITH ALL OF YOUR CONCEPTS BECAUSE IT’S THE CONCEPTS WE CAN’T HANDLE..THE CONCEPTS HAVE TO GO ..IF YOU GO WITH THEM ITS UP TO YOU AND ITS UP TO THE LORD’S MERCY, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU BELIEVE FULLY THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS, ALL OF THIS. I BELIEVE THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT IT. BUT NOBODY ELSE THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT EXCEPT FOR THESE PEOPLE WE QUARANTINED.

(He had said before this: NOW THIS IS THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT. YOU MAY DISAGREE AND I’M SURE YOU DO...LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING UNOFFICIALLY, STEVE YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR LETTER THAT SOME FEEL RESPECTFULLY THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOBLE., THEN YOU LISTED KEN UNGER, JOHN INGALLS AND BILL MALLON, YET IT WAS A WHO’S WHO OF THE QUARANTINED BROTHERS.)
This brother reminds me of Jimmy Swaggart, and Ted Haggard, who actually were preaching to themselves, about their hidden issues and short-comings.

His words are eye poppin revealing of the mindset in the Living Stream Ministry churches, that they actually believe they are it, and have a special omniscience that all others in Christendom aren't privy to.

For those reasons the Living Stream Ministry churches and their leaders shouldn't be taken seriously. They claim what is not true, and elevate themselves beyond what they ought. Let them live in their little bubble.
08-23-2011 07:56 PM
Indiana
Re: Further demonstration of the Sectarian Mindset of LC leaders
The following is more demonstration of the mentality, esp of leaders that plagues the Local Churches. I heard these things, and more in a shocking conversation with such a leader.


…LET ME FINISH MY OFFICIAL REMARKS HERE, YOUR LIBERTY TO CONTACT THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN QUARANTINED WHEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD BE HAVING THAT LIBERTY….
WE REALLY KNOW A LOT OF DETAILS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS FROM THESE OTHER BROTHERS, YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW, BUT YOU MAY KNOW, BUT THE POINT IS THIS, YOUR MINDSET IN ALL OF THIS, YOU BELIEVE ME, IS GOING TO BE THOROUGHLY REJECTED IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, THOROUGHLY REJECTED BY THE RECOVERY..NOW THAT’S WHAT’S IN YOUR MIND, THAT’S YOUR THOUGHT YOUR CONCEPT ABOUT IT ALL, THAT’S WHAT HAS TO GO..NOW WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF BROS WHO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS AND TOOK SOMETHING ON IN THEIR MIND AND THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE RIGHT BUT EVENTUALLY THEY MAYBE COULD SEE THAT THEY WERE NOT RIGHT AND THE LORD COULD SHINE AND THERE COULD BE SOME DEALING WITH THE LORD AND THERE COULD BE A TURN IN THE MIND. THAT’S WHAT REPENTANCE REALLY IS, IT MEANS THAT YOU’VE SEEN...WHEN THAT HAPPENS EVERYBODY KNOWS WHEN YOU COME AROUND PEOPLE. IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN, I DO BELIEVE THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO BE RESTORED..NOW IF THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN STEVE YOU WILL BE REJECTED WITH ALL OF YOUR CONCEPTS BECAUSE IT’S THE CONCEPTS WE CAN’T HANDLE..THE CONCEPTS HAVE TO GO ..IF YOU GO WITH THEM ITS UP TO YOU AND ITS UP TO THE LORD’S MERCY, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU BELIEVE FULLY THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS, ALL OF THIS. I BELIEVE THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT IT. BUT NOBODY ELSE THINKS YOU ARE RIGHT EXCEPT FOR THESE PEOPLE WE QUARANTINED.

(He had said before this: NOW THIS IS THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT. YOU MAY DISAGREE AND I’M SURE YOU DO...LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING UNOFFICIALLY, STEVE YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR LETTER THAT SOME FEEL RESPECTFULLY THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOBLE., THEN YOU LISTED KEN UNGER, JOHN INGALLS AND BILL MALLON, YET IT WAS A WHO’S WHO OF THE QUARANTINED BROTHERS.)
07-15-2011 05:54 PM
Indiana
Re: Kangas Toe-ing the Party Line
www.twoturmoils.com/KangasToeingPartyLine.pdf

I believe that when Mr. Kangas saw that John Ingalls was not following the party’s line of thinking, he stepped up to the plate to excoriate him in his book on Ingalls in 1989. Albeit, he did so merely by toe-ing the party’s line of thinking – not through investigation. You don't dare do that.


http://www.twoturmoils.com/EighteenP...considered.pdf
07-15-2011 09:28 AM
OBW
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
When the Lord says in Revelation, "Come out of her, my people," speaking of coming out of Babylon the Great Harlot, assuming Babylon represents a corrupt religious system, what do you think he is talking about?

Is he talking about leaving the church one is in, or is he telling churches to stop being tethered to evil systems? I think in many cases it must be the latter.

I went to a wedding this weekend in a Catholic church in Arlington, TX. It was a simple non-ornate parish and the presence of the Lord was there. The word of God was pure and clear. I saw no religious corruption.

Now, if the Lord is calling these people to leave Babylon, what is he telling them to do? Abandon their church and the Christians they have relationships with? I don't think so. That's not building, it's tearing down. I think He's calling them to cut ties with evil systems.

Same with LRC churches, I would think.
I wonder if it is a call to separate from the secular/political realm. While not entirely linked in the imagery, we have a political system represented by the beast, and something that seems to be sort of a melting pot called Babylon the Great. We can point to certain kinds of corruption in the churches from day one. But at some level, one of the most corrupting things was the acceptance by some of the State's offer of being "the religion." Rather than discussing the gnostic issue, they simply made it illegal. And to this day there has been a marriage of church and state within so many places. Even in America.

I believe that the call is not to come out of a church. But for the church to come out of its unholy alliances. To return to its position as the only true Christian Nation. I'm not saying that things beyond the political are not embedded in that call to "come out of her." But just like those 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3, no one was called to "leave the church," but to overcome corruption. Even "that woman, Jezebel" was not a cause to leave the church.

In other words, it is not about people coming out of the church, but the church coming out of unholy alliances. Out of places of corruption.

And in the context of this thread, I sense that looking to the most vague writing in the NT to declare who/what/where to leave/come out of is sort of setting a different kind of sectarian mindset in place.

I appreciate your comment about the RCC wedding. There may be much to say about some kinds of corruption that they can overcome. But to read "Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots" as being the RCC and the Protestant groups that split out from it, while not entirely implausible, seems to be a stretch with a purpose. And that purpose is to somehow taint all the others without tainting your own group that is really just one more of the Protestant "harlot" groups (accepting their reading).

I would more nearly call the Moral Majority, or their successor "Christian right" groups as being the ones getting "into bed" with the world/government. The church needs to separate from those. I'm sure that there are other things.
07-15-2011 09:27 AM
Ohio
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Interesting question. I think this is what the book of Ruth says. On a superficial reading of the Bible you would think that the OT condemns Ruth because she is a Moabitess. But as Boaz points out you have a contradiction in the OT, Ruth is also a widow of an Israelite. So which verse do you heed? Boaz and the book of Ruth gives us the answer, Ruth is judged by her own heart. In her own heart she said "your people will be my people". Ruth decided that she was a widow of an Israelite first and foremost. This may be an example of "come out of her my people". We also chose in our heart to leave a corrupt, evil, worldly system. Since this is a symptom of fallen man it should be no surprise that religious systems can also become infected with a corrupt, evil system. So if you look at the Lord's letters to the churches in Revelation you can see that the only requirement he puts on those in the Catholic church is to be pure in heart and to not know the deep things of Satan.
Brother ZNP, you bring up some of the tragic ironies that captured me 35 years ago. That summer training on Revelations was my first, and the level of hatred spewed forth towards the RCC, where I grew up, was highlighted by the call, "come out of her, My people." Yet, to the church in Thyatira, supposedly the prophetic type of the RCC, there was no such call by the Lord. Instead, that call was used by the Recovery to "come out" of all of "degraded Christianity," as if the Recovery was the only true testimony of Christ on earth.

Personally, my own gospel became leavened by that teaching. Instead of preaching Christ and Him crucified to my friends and family, I now preached "escape" from the idolatry of Jezebel. Little did I know back in those days in the book of Revelation, Max Rapoport rose to prominence by arm-twisting Daystar investors, and the chaos of the "universal coordination of the one new man," was about to hit the LC near you.

It's no wonder WL and the "Blendeds to be" had to silence Ingalls and so many other whistle-blowers. They had begun to look at the deformed and degraded LSM monstrosity, and cried out, "come out of her, My people."
07-15-2011 06:55 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
When the Lord says in Revelation, "Come out of her, my people," speaking of coming out of Babylon the Great Harlot, assuming Babylon represents a corrupt religious system, what do you think he is talking about?

Is he talking about leaving the church one is in, or is he telling churches to stop being tethered to evil systems? I think in many cases it must be the latter.

I went to a wedding this weekend in a Catholic church in Arlington, TX. It was a simple non-ornate parish and the presence of the Lord was there. The word of God was pure and clear. I saw no religious corruption.

Now, if the Lord is calling these people to leave Babylon, what is he telling them to do? Abandon their church and the Christians they have relationships with? I don't think so. That's not building, it's tearing down. I think He's calling them to cut ties with evil systems.

Same with LRC churches, I would think.
Interesting question. I think this is what the book of Ruth says. On a superficial reading of the Bible you would think that the OT condemns Ruth because she is a Moabitess. But as Boaz points out you have a contradiction in the OT, Ruth is also a widow of an Israelite. So which verse do you heed? Boaz and the book of Ruth gives us the answer, Ruth is judged by her own heart. In her own heart she said "your people will be my people". Ruth decided that she was a widow of an Israelite first and foremost. This may be an example of "come out of her my people". We also chose in our heart to leave a corrupt, evil, worldly system. Since this is a symptom of fallen man it should be no surprise that religious systems can also become infected with a corrupt, evil system. So if you look at the Lord's letters to the churches in Revelation you can see that the only requirement he puts on those in the Catholic church is to be pure in heart and to not know the deep things of Satan.
07-14-2011 02:26 PM
rayliotta
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Some here have recently mentioned the way some marriages have not survived leaving the Recovery. The lack of a real relationship outside the context of the Recovery system.

To me this is similar to the idea of a local church cutting ties with Anaheim and Austin, in many cases.
07-14-2011 02:18 PM
rayliotta
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
When the Lord says in Revelation, "Come out of her, my people," speaking of coming out of Babylon the Great Harlot, assuming Babylon represents a corrupt religious system, what do you think he is talking about?
Thinking about my own experience, I can see how some localities could probably make this transition. But for many (most in the US?), the local culture is so compromised, so mixed up with the "Recovery culture".... At some point, you have to ask, what would it even mean for them to continue on together outside the Recovery? What is their identity outside of the program?
07-14-2011 09:55 AM
Cal
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
When the Lord says in Revelation, "Come out of her, my people," speaking of coming out of Babylon the Great Harlot, assuming Babylon represents a corrupt religious system, what do you think he is talking about?

Is he talking about leaving the church one is in, or is he telling churches to stop being tethered to evil systems? I think in many cases it must be the latter.

I went to a wedding this weekend in a Catholic church in Arlington, TX. It was a simple non-ornate parish and the presence of the Lord was there. The word of God was pure and clear. I saw no religious corruption.

Now, if the Lord is calling these people to leave Babylon, what is he telling them to do? Abandon their church and the Christians they have relationships with? I don't think so. That's not building, it's tearing down. I think He's calling them to cut ties with evil systems.

Same with LRC churches, I would think.
07-14-2011 05:52 AM
TLFisher
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Terry, I'm not sure what you are saying.
When your basis for fellowship is publication of Living Stream's ministry, the recovery is not for just any Christian.
So next time you hear talk why there isn't much of an increase in the local churches, it shouldn't come to any surprise why. Just as the brother stated to you, I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery.
07-14-2011 05:04 AM
OBW
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
It seems that the gravitational pull is just too strong for any LC to depart as a group on their own. I think in every case they have needed added incentives from headquarters in the form of manipulations, politickings, backbitings, and the threat of expulsion.

The same was true of the children of Israel. There is no record of any synagogue, like in say Nazareth, departing from the program. Many individuals, however, were seriously drawn to the Savior, through His many teachings and healings, but even they needed the added "booster rockets" via expulsion from the folds of the synagogue, to overcome the massive gravitational forces within Judaism.
There is probably some relevance to a comparison with the Jews who had to be kicked out of the synagogues to follow Jesus. But at some level, I'm not sure it is as good a comparison as we might like. While there is surely an intent that Jews become Christian, there still is some indication that Jews faithfully following the way of the OT are not rejected simply for failing to accept Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus is the Messiah whether they realize it or not.

And Judaism was established through the edicts of God. Not sure that can be said of the sectarian system that is the LRC. Not ever. I honestly believe that its very roots are flawed. Not saying that they are apostate or something like that. Just that the whole premise of their division from other Christians was, from the outset, underpinned by false teaching. Can't say that of Judaism.

In fact, if there did not continue to be something between God and the Jews, then the whole "pray for the peace of Jerusalem" and other kinds of "stand with Israel" considerations would be meaningless.

Actually, I believe that it is Lee's rants against Protestantism, Catholicism, and Judaism that may still color our thinking. And despite what we see of error in the RCC, it may be that maintaining the kind of "they are just reprobate idolaters" mindset may be just as much an error as suggesting that the Protestants of more liturgical practice are simply "dead" and those Arminians are simply heretical. (Remember, Arminians includes much of Pentecostalism and Methodism. Do we really consider them heretical?)

Is the negative position on almost everything that does not match a Lee-free and BB-free LRC style just as sectarian as the LRC is? We say we are not sectarian like they are, then spend much of our time discussing the evils of denominations. I still have some qualms with attending an RCC mass, but I don't think I consider them as reprobate (if at all) as Lee taught — or as so many Protestants continue to rail about. It may be that while we like our way better, the RCC has actually changed since the time of Martin Luther.

This does not mean that there is no reason to sharpen one another. To come together to reason. But the playing field is more level than we once thought. We are discussing among brothers/sisters, not between superiors and inferiors. Between "the way" and reprobates.
07-14-2011 01:42 AM
rayliotta
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
The same was true of the children of Israel. There is no record of any synagogue, like in say Nazareth, departing from the program. Many individuals, however, were seriously drawn to the Savior, through His many teachings and healings, but even they needed the added "booster rockets" via expulsion from the folds of the synagogue, to overcome the massive gravitational forces within Judaism.
I thought He just said, Yo, come over here, kid, and they dropped their fishing poles, eyes turned Speed Racer, and followed him, zombie-style.

At least, that's what they told me in children's meeting. Or was it Cartoon Network, can't remember...
07-13-2011 05:14 PM
Ohio
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
As a movement, it cannot be fixed. The only thing that can help the churches in the movement is to break away from the movement, establish autonomy, begin to fellowship with all Christians and receive healing from the corruption they've been inflicted with. That's the only hope.
It seems that the gravitational pull is just too strong for any LC to depart as a group on their own. I think in every case they have needed added incentives from headquarters in the form of manipulations, politickings, backbitings, and the threat of expulsion.

The same was true of the children of Israel. There is no record of any synagogue, like in say Nazareth, departing from the program. Many individuals, however, were seriously drawn to the Savior, through His many teachings and healings, but even they needed the added "booster rockets" via expulsion from the folds of the synagogue, to overcome the massive gravitational forces within Judaism.
07-13-2011 10:09 AM
Cal
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
As long as these people like Kangas and Sherman have position in this movement they will never change. If they do change, they will no longer have position in the movement. You can take that to the bank.

The problem with the LR is not some bad guys at the top. The problem is the movement itself. It is based on several unbiblical and evil principles which guarantee its corruption.

As a movement, it cannot be fixed. The only thing that can help the churches in the movement is to break away from the movement, establish autonomy, begin to fellowship with all Christians and receive healing from the corruption they've been inflicted with. That's the only hope.

The LR is over. It was over when it first started. There never was any hope for it, because it is based on being a unique, special subset of the Body of Christ, and the Lord will never honor such an attitude. He will allow that attitude to run its course of corruption because that's the only way these things get resolved, as history has always taught us.

Like individual Catholic parishes, individual LRCs may do well, because the Lord loves and honors genuine assemblies of believers.

But as a movement it is over. Leave the house to them as desolate and get on with looking forward to serve the Lord.
07-13-2011 04:51 AM
OBW
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's.
First, this is not a response to Terry. He just quoted the line from somewhere else.

The fact that Lee called it a rebellion is the first evidence of Lee's "wrong" concerning John I. That he refused to take the counsel to deal with his wayward son, most specifically by removing him from forced contact with any LRC member for any reason through his position with the LSM made Witness Lee an accomplice to Philip Lee's sins. He aided and abetted. And he knew of the problem from the late 70s. This was not some unheard of claim by one disgruntled LSM employee.

And the 16 points that BP and others called an attack on Lee and the "ministry" was no such thing. It simply clarified that the church was the church and the ministry was the ministry and that the ministry was for the church (as even Lee had so often taught) not the church for the ministry.

I would say that "Brother Lee" was not only wrong about something that happened concerning John I, but he was wrong about virtually every point. That little book FOTPR essentially lies about every material point.

And saying "Brother Lee" does not mean I question his position as a Christian brother, but that I see the use of the term with respect to Lee as a title with much similarity to what Jesus meant when he said to call no man "father." There is almost a reverence to his position that is grated on in their minds when I do not include the "brother." Their use reminds me of the way the people of Rock Ridge (think Blazing Saddles) would stop and look longingly to the distance and sang whenever Randolph Scott was mentioned.
07-12-2011 08:55 PM
TLFisher
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's.

No. Do your homework. Brother Lee is no longer with us. Brother John still is. There's a lot Brother Lee left out. Compare what Brother Lee said compared to what brother John wrote. There is discrepancy. Any responsible person can research and discern.
07-12-2011 06:59 PM
Indiana
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Terry, I'm not sure what you are saying. Sherman Robertson, too, thinks he is an accepting brother; Ron Kangas thinks he also, as do all the blending brothers, leaders and the saints... So accepting of others!

Until they are tested... Then their obsession appears, in some form, to some degree, and in both "great or small"; family member or elder; Ron Kangas or Sherman Robertson; Joel Kennon, Richard Lee, James Lee, Les Cites, Dan Towle...These and more have been my encounters. One will find out by experience, in departing further away from "the party line", the wickedness of the LC leaders' mindset that has infected many in the congregation of LC saints, even my son who rarely attends, has attacked me; even my "friend-brother" who had been backslidden for years rose up to mercilessly assail me for my writings; even the most gentle, silent, small LC brother condemned me, who had been calling me once in a while till he heard from an "elder', that I am "against the ministry". There must be so many other cases among the saints in the churches where elders and saints have become thus infected in allowing the ministry to become the dividing line.

The people I have mentioned, and more (Paul Hon is one), earnestly charge me or encourage me to just "go to the brothers" and do what they tell me, then all will be well. I have been told several times to "just drop your concerns".

But.... "As long as you think that you are right about what you put on the internet and that the problem is that the brothers from the local churches are not open, this is a proof that you have no light on
this matter. And until you get light, you have no way with the Lord. Without light, you will never be able to come back to the Lord's recovery. Because you just don't know how to handle this situation. You are completely in the dark." - Sherman

And, as long as this is the refrain, I will continue to address the problem and the need: "Repentance unto LIFE", and light.

Note: My point is that this mindset is widespread and runs deepest and is most lethal among leaders, beginning with the blending brothers, as the posts on this thread attest
07-12-2011 09:21 AM
TLFisher
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.
I appreciate the brother's honesty and for not speaking the usual rhetoric. Keep in mind it's his opinion and does not speak for most of those meeting in the local churches.
Most saints I know who meet in the local churches believe the local church is for all believers and contradict the brothers feeling.

To say not everyone belongs in the Lord's recovery is saying the local churches is not for everyone. Brothers and sisters who cannot be absolute for the ministry, those brothers and sisters are better off in denominational and non-denominational christianity. If you ask me why that is, my answer would be not all Christians are for the Living Stream's ministry or any other ministry. Christians may want just the Word without an emphasis on any brother's teaching. This is why the local churches is not for everyone.
Question I have what is it to have a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord's recovery?
07-12-2011 07:28 AM
Cal
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
www.twoturmoils.com/LCSectarianMindset.pdf

I was told by an LC leader in 2004:

The first step for you be restored to the fellowship of the churches, if in fact this is what you really want, would have to be a complete and thorough point-by-point apology and retraction of every item you mentioned on the Internet. This would have to be posted on the Internet for all to see and of course you would need to send it to each one that you sent the book to.

However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.

"I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other. My conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe." - Martin Luther at his second hearing before the Diet of Worms

I guess the attitude of a historical "minister of the age" is not good enough for these people.
07-12-2011 06:47 AM
Ohio
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
In the referenced document, Sherman Robertson wrote to Steve Isitt:

Quote:
The website of your "book" and also the website of your "fellowship" with those such as Don Hardy and others is now a VERY BIG PROBLEM FOR YOU. Your thought about the recovery being wrong is your major problem. Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's.

Brother Lee is a different person than Phillip Lee. Brother Lee would never do things that others would do.
This brief quote above highlights the Grand Canyon sized "chasm" which separates the LSM loyalists from the many former members, like Steve Isitt, who have dared to dig beneath the surface, and then speak up about what was found there. These points will always characterize the ardent followers of WL:
  • The Recovery is never wrong
  • Brother Lee is never wrong
  • Brother Lee would never do things that others would do
These items characterize the "armor" that protects the LSM'ers stronghold. The brothers that "disciplined" Steve Isitt, consider these points to be as much a part of God's plan, err ... God's economy, as the very virgin birth of Jesus Christ. These matters are simply not negotiable. Every other sin is forgiveable, but just like denying the virgin birth, the pivotal truth that God Himself has come in the flesh, to reject these matters constitutes the unforgiveable sin for LSM. The primary foundational characteristic of all the Blendeds is to "hold these truths to be self-evident."

Unless we can understand the hardened mindset in the LC system, we can not appreciate the "mountain" that Steve Isitt must climb to be "reconciled." In this system, "death" is far more serious than any sin, thus LSM's chief theologian Ron Kangas has labeled Steve, "the man of death." This tag goes way beyond the Biblical "Raca" and "Moreh." (Mt 5.22) This carefully chosen epithet ranks with "the man of sin," (II Th 2.3) which was the Apostle Paul's description of the Antichrist, and since death is considered by the Blendeds to be far worse than sin, one can begin to understand the enormity of their curse upon Steve.

Which reminds me of the final Beatitude spoken by the Lord Jesus. "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and say every evil thing against you, lying, for My sake. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in the heavens, for thus they persecuted the prophets before you. You are the salt of the earth." Mt 5.11-13
07-12-2011 06:27 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
www.twoturmoils.com/LCSectarianMindset.pdf

I was told by an LC leader in 2004:

The first step for you be restored to the fellowship of the churches, if in fact this is what you really want, would have to be a complete and thorough point-by-point apology and retraction of every item you mentioned on the Internet. This would have to be posted on the Internet for all to see and of course you would need to send it to each one that you sent the book to.

However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.
How would this "restore you to the fellowship"? How does ignoring sin and the truth restore someone to the fellowship? How does rejecting your conscience "restore someone to the fellowship"?
07-12-2011 05:17 AM
OBW
Re: The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
I was told by an LC leader in 2004:

The first step for you be restored to the fellowship of the churches, if in fact this is what you really want, would have to be a complete and thorough point-by-point apology and retraction of every item you mentioned on the Internet. This would have to be posted on the Internet for all to see and of course you would need to send it to each one that you sent the book to.

However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.
And what a price it is!!
  • Abandon reason.
  • Accept crazy teachings that your mind clearly sees as incorrect.
  • Watch your "acting God" lie about men who were/are much more righteous than that "acting God" ever was.
  • Accept that oneness is found in defining your group/way as the only true way and belittle all who won't take it.
I would submit that rather than a point-by-point retraction, you should provide a point-by-point enhancement of the evidence that the points, one by one, cannot be retracted because they are true and to retract them would be a lie.

The membership of the LRC are like sheep without a shepherd, at least in terms of their denomination. They mostly have some true shepherds at the local level (as it should be) but are bullied and bewildered from the home office in Anaheim. Not sure how they would fare if each assembly was cut off from a defunct home office. Maybe much better. I would hope so.
07-11-2011 06:27 PM
Indiana
The Sectarian Mindset of Local Church Leaders
www.twoturmoils.com/LCSectarianMindset.pdf

I was told by an LC leader in 2004:

The first step for you be restored to the fellowship of the churches, if in fact this is what you really want, would have to be a complete and thorough point-by-point apology and retraction of every item you mentioned on the Internet. This would have to be posted on the Internet for all to see and of course you would need to send it to each one that you sent the book to.

However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery.

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