Originally Posted by Nell

In addition to "setting the mind on the spirit" is the equally illusive teaching "living Christ."

This excerpt from a WL message reduced to print is very interesting. It includes Lee's own words on how his teaching doesn't really "work".


https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=0FDCD20D0B

MAN'S TWO SINS BEFORE GOD
In the Bible we see that in this time of the New Testament, man has only two sins before God. If you are not a believer, you will go to the lake of fire and perish there not because of any other sin but because of your not believing into the Lord Jesus. In John 16:9, the Lord said, "Concerning sin, because they do not believe into Me." The unique sin of the unbelievers before God today is the sin of unbelief. ...

(Because Paul said "For to me, to live is Christ" (Phil. 1:21a), WL makes this leap…(added))
After believing in the Lord, we have another sin. Many brothers and sisters are not sensitive to this. What is this sin? It is the sin of not living Christ. Your not living Christ and not living by Christ is the greatest sin. I saw this many years ago but did not have a strong consciousness of it until mid-July of last year when I was on a mountain having a quiet, intimate time with the Lord. At that time I practiced confessing my sins daily. Whenever I had a wrong intention, said a wrong word, or had a wrong attitude, I would confess my sins. Every day I would confess my sins just like I would wash my hands. Then the Lord asked me, "Have you ever confessed this one sin, that you do not live Christ?" I said, "Lord, forgive me! I have not confessed this sin. Although I have confessed saying the wrong thing or having a wrong attitude, I never confessed this sin of not living Christ. O Lord, I do not live You out. O Lord, I do not live You. O Lord, forgive me!"

From that day on, I would confess this sin thoroughly before the Lord. Then I found out that there is no end to the daily confession of this sin. It is extremely difficult for us to live Christ every moment of the day. I did a little calculating for myself and for others as well. There are twenty-four hours in a day. After deducting eight hours for sleeping, there are still sixteen hours. How much of the remaining sixteen hours do I spend living Christ? I found out that I may not even have two hours of living Christ. In the other fourteen hours although I did not commit any sin, neither did I live Christ. Do you see this? Within the sixteen waking hours, I had only two hours at most in which I was living Christ.

These two hours of living Christ started with my prayer time. In fact, at the beginning of my prayer time, I was not in my spirit but still in my mind. Then gradually I prayed myself into my spirit. When I prayed myself into my spirit, I lived Christ in my spirit. When I prayed, I lived Christ. After praying, I was living in my spirit, but this did not last long. After five minutes Sister Lee asked me, "Yesterday you gave some money to So-and-so. Why did you not discuss this with me first?" Her questioning halted my living of Christ. Immediately I turned to my mind, asking, "What is this?" This was not to live Christ. I spent the next fifteen minutes telling her all the reasons, and in those fifteen minutes I did not live Christ. What did I live? Even I myself do not know. I did not sin or lose my temper, but neither was I in my spirit living Christ. This would go on until two or three o'clock in the afternoon; then I sensed something was wrong. I turned to the Lord to confess, "Lord, I did not live Christ throughout the day. Although I did not do anything wrong, I have been living in myself. Lord, I am not trustworthy. Lord, forgive my sin! Lord, remind me that I am one spirit with You, and You are one spirit with me. I do not want to live outside of this spirit. I want to live only in this spirit." After my confession I felt much better within and sensed the Lord's sweetness, and I was again in my spirit living Christ. However, at this moment the phone rang, and I picked up the receiver. That one phone call got me out of my spirit again. Also there were times when the telephone did not ring, and I was just working and not committing any wrong, yet I still was not living Christ.

What do I live when I am not living Christ? First, ethics; second, logic; and third, biblical teachings. For example, when a husband and wife who are believers quarrel, they condemn themselves. But suppose that, instead of quarreling, they love each other, yet not in spirit. Since not loving each other in the spirit is not counted as a sin, they do not condemn themselves but rather consider that they are doing the right thing. In this way, every day we live mostly either according to ethics or according to logic; we spend very little time living Christ in our spirit. One day I did a little more calculating. I am afraid that even the best brothers and sisters among us live Christ only five percent of the time; ninety-five percent of the time they do not live Christ. Some are contentious and do not live Christ; others are peaceable and never say much, but they also do not live Christ.

This confession makes me wonder why he "wrote a book" (spoken messages reduced to print) on "living Christ" every moment of the day, when he admits that he and the "best brothers and sisters among us live Christ only five percent of the day." Perhaps Lee misinterpreted Phil. 1:21a and/or did not appreciate the context of the verse as spoken by Paul. Regardless, he admits that it's "very difficult" to practice what he himself preaches...yet he taught it anyway.

Nell

Originally Posted by Igzy

"Living Christ" basically makes walking in the Spirit a work. It turns what should be a state of liberating grace into a state of defeated bondage.

Lee was a nut. He seemed to look for ways to make the Christian life harder and more complicated than it is supposed to be.

With God all things are possible. With Lee even the possible becomes impossible.

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is actually something that I could never figure out either, especially as a kid. How on earth are you supposed to do your homework while also having to keep conscious of the spirit or setting your mind on the spirit? It's like, how are you supposed to split your mind to focus on two things all the time - the spirit and the task at hand? It just didn't make sense, and was yet another thing in a long string of things that I didn't understand, was bewildered why I seemed to be the only one not understanding, and/or walked around feeling like a failure at. Yet another facet in the waste of what could have been a brighter, happier childhood.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I watched the movie, "The Day Reagan Was Shot," and that is exactly what happened. These two Christian trauma surgeons prayed a short prayer as they were prepping for his surgery. The results were both miraculous and historical. Very few people realized that President Reagan, under "normal" circumstances, should have died. He was hit by a small caliber bullet and was hemorrhaging, the bullet just mm's from his heart, yet he felt no pain.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

This like of thing seems way too "spiritual" for me. If you're a doctor doing open heart surgery what does this kind of thing look like in application? Shouldn't you be setting your mind on the surgery?

Isn't real life more like before going in you might say a short prayer: "Lord I'm going in to do this surgery. Thank you for giving me a mind that could learn and practice medicine. I know I have the skill and knowledge to do it but I still want to ask you to be with me and give me wisdom. Give me patience with the nurses and other staff. Keep me humble under your guiding hand." And then you go in and focus 100% on the task at hand and give it everything you have to succeed?

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is actually something that I could never figure out either, especially as a kid. How on earth are you supposed to do your homework while also having to keep conscious of the spirit or setting your mind on the spirit? It's like, how are you supposed to split your mind to focus on two things all the time - the spirit and the task at hand? It just didn't make sense, and was yet another thing in a long string of things that I didn't understand, was bewildered why I seemed to be the only one not understanding, and/or walked around feeling like a failure at. Yet another facet in the waste of what could have been a brighter, happier childhood.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Per Nigel Witness Lee says:

“All day long we need to set our mind on nothing but our spirit. …learn to practice setting our mind on our spirit all the time. This …produces the growth of life.”

This like of thing seems way too "spiritual" for me. If you're a doctor doing open heart surgery what does this kind of thing look like in application? Shouldn't you be setting your mind on the surgery?

Isn't real life more like before going in you might say a short prayer: "Lord I'm going in to do this surgery. Thank you for giving me a mind that could learn and practice medicine. I know I have the skill and knowledge to do it but I still want to ask you to be with me and give me wisdom. Give me patience with the nurses and other staff. Keep me humble under your guiding hand." And then you go in and focus 100% on the task at hand and give it everything you have to succeed?

Originally Posted by Ohio

For example, I still treasure the practice of praying the scriptures, much as Ray Graver used historical patterns of this in his booklet "Lord, Thou saidst." But how this ever deteriorated into merely shouting scriptures or reciting outlines with PSRP in beyond me.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I thought you weren't allowed to say this on this forum.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Shhhhh! Maybe they won't catch us.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Description, Not Exhortation

A common thread among Bible scholars is that Phronema is a noun and not a verb; it describes a person’s settled way of thinking, mindset, mentality, or frame of mind. It is not a verb, indicating an action, such as “setting the mind.” Hence it does not provide the basis for a spiritual exercise or practice. I have not found one reputable Bible scholar who endorses LSM’s hermeneutic regarding ‘setting the mind on the spirit.’ Plus, scholars assert that this part of Romans 8 is a description, not an exhortation. Dr. Thomas R. Schreiner of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary says emphatically, “Romans 8:5-7 constitutes not an exhortation but a description of the mindset of those in the flesh and those in the Spirit. An exhortation to live according to the Spirit is not present in Rom. 8:5-8. Paul describes the actual mindset of those who are according to flesh and Spirit.” Hence, these scholars conclude that, contrary to LSM’s exposition, Paul is not exhorting the believers to ‘set their mind on the spirit.’

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I thought you weren't allowed to say this on this forum.

Originally Posted by Ohio

For example, I still treasure the practice of praying the scriptures, much as Ray Graver used historical patterns of this in his booklet "Lord, Thou saidst."

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am confused. I was hoping someone would have cleared this up but apparently not.

1. Is my understanding of Romans 8:4-6 flawed?
2. If not how is my understanding of these verses any different from what WL taught in the verses I quoted?
3. If it is flawed what is the "acceptable" understanding?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Really? Can you give me a reference on that?

I specifically recall being told that reading the Bible = setting the mind on the Spirit. Praying = setting the mind on the Spirit. Going to a meeting = setting the mind on the Spirit. Singing a hymn = setting the mind on the Spirit.

We were also taught that "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God". In other words, spending time in the Bible, in fellowship, in prayer, in meetings increases the opportunity to "hear the word of God" and therefore increases the possible amount of faith you might receive.

So unlike your idea of the figure skater thinking about their feet, I felt that the teaching was the more time I spend "practicing" the better I will be in the game. Just like a piano player who practices until the music becomes part of his fingers (a concept that recent studies of the brain have proven).

Now that might be the Houston version, don't know. I was not in the LRC when the Roman's life studies were given. I do know that this is what I was taught in Houston and it does seem to match the word and my personal experience. It seems reasonable since this is how piano players, and basketball players, and even figure skaters learn their craft (see Perfecting Training, Chapter 38, Sect. 3, Practicing to be in the Spirit). So then, "Let us reason together".

Witness Lee: "To read the Bible, to recite the verses of the Bible, to fellowship with the Lord, to pray, and to fellowship with the saints around the Bible or about the spiritual things helps you to mind the things of the Spirit." (Perfecting Training, Chapter 37, Section 3).

Originally Posted by Ohio

In light of our turbulent history, I like this better translation, "the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace." The NIV is also great, "the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace." While I like the exhortation side of the word "set your mind," to a limited degree, Nigel's paper does highlight some of the extremes which we endured during those early days. As time progressed, "whenever the heart turns to the Lord" (II Cor 3.16) became "turning to the Spirit," which in turn became "turning to my spirit," which simply became a call to action at meeting time. Eventually "turning to my spirit" became little different than a performance with the volume cranked up. Unfortunately bad habits are often learned more quickly than good ones, and with thunderous "amens" reinforcing them, little existed to rectify the situation.

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is an unfortunate use of a mental illness to describe the results of bad Christian teachings. Schizophrenia has little to do with oscillating behaviors, rather it is a psychosis whereby your senses do not accurately describe your reality. In other words, one sees and hears and imagines things which do not exist. Of all diseases, it is perhaps the most tragic, since one can not distinguish reality from fantasy. Perhaps a better description would have been bipolar disease, where one oscillates between times of exhilarating mania and debilitating depression.

Either way, Lee's unique teachings seem to have created numerous mental health issues in some of its members.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Note this also means a believer can switch from being “spiritual” to “fleshly,” and back again, in a moment. The Local Church charge, “turn to your spirit” also assumes the believer can “turn on a dime” to become spiritual. We ask: Doesn’t this teaching have the potential for generating schizophrenic Christians, exhibiting “Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde” oscillations between being “spiritual” and being “fleshly”?

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have to believe his deeper concern was how so many saints got defrauded from their prize. By using flawed "hermeneutics," Lee and Company robbed us of the reality which is in Christ, and brought us under their submission. I'm sure Nigel's writings are also a therapeutic "detox" for his own journey.

Originally Posted by aron

I remember one time, when WL was alive, and one of the Maximum Blended Co-Workers from Anaheim came through. We were informed in advance of his coming, so the crowd size was above-normal. But it was a subdued bunch, and the singing and spontaneous declarations were not really "flowing"; the volume was also not cranked up. The Blended stood up and exhorted (berated) us for our performance, and we began to bawl like hungry calves at feeding time. That seemed to satisfy our visitor, and the meeting went on... eventually we even got a "special burden from Brother Lee's heart".

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

It seems to me that Nigel's underlying concern with this and some of his other articles is how Witness Lee and the LSM do their hermeneutic work.

Originally Posted by Ohio

... As time progressed, "whenever the heart turns to the Lord" (II Cor 3.16) became "turning to the Spirit," which in turn became "turning to my spirit," which simply became a call to action at meeting time. Eventually "turning to my spirit" became little different than a performance with the volume cranked up...

Originally Posted by Terry

Back to Nigel's writing. His article was surely informative. One thinking critically of Nigel's work might think our brother is "nitpicking". I'm thinking changing a verse's translation changes the context how a verse is comprehended.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

When examined against the Biblical Greek text, LSM’s teaching about “setting the mind on the spirit” is built on “sinking sand.” It lacks a solid biblical basis. W. Lee’s teachings on this topic rely on English translations of Romans 8:6-7 which render the Greek noun, phronema in terms of the verb, “set.” There is in fact no verb whatsoever in the original Greek; going from English translations back to the original Greek, the verb vanishes. Rather than translating the crucial phrase, “the mind set on the spirit,” with the verb, “set,” Bible scholars suggest the Greek term phronema be rendered by nouns, such as, “mindset, mentality, frame of mind, or resolute way of thinking.” Moreover, they point out that this passage is a description, not an exhortation. This contradicts W. Lee’s teaching on this topic.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I have to give Witness Lee credit in handling one of the several instances of mental illness I was aware of. A young brother was traveling across the country to a training and started to have a nervous breakdown. Witness Lee was contacted and asked for advice. He said the brother's conscience was oversensitive and to stop discussing any spiritual things with him. No praying. Nothing. Instead play games like chess, etc and do other activities like sightseeing along the way. This helped a lot. When he got to the training the brother was not expected to attend any meetings. He was free to come and go as he pleased with no pressure. These stop-gap measures helped until he was able to get professional help. He went on to become a husband, dad and built a successful career without further incidents.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I saw several incidents of mental issues in the Recovery and in each case the extreme subjectivity of "experiencing the sense of life" aggravated the problem...Of course, these people are rare. But I know I went through this kind of overwrought subjectivity. How short should my hair be? Should I wear this shirt? What about this tie? Where should I work? Should I quit school? If you'd honestly set your mind on your spirit, you'd know, brother!

Originally Posted by Igzy

Now I realize God mostly says to me, "Do what you like. I'll tell you when I don't like it."

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Often brothers and sisters, discouraged perhaps by personal health, job or relationship issues, were simply charged to “turn to your spirit”42 as the solution for every difficulty, the panacea for all ills.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here is the LXX version, does it match?

2. ἀνοίξατε πύλας εἰσελθάτω λαὸς φυλάςων δικαιοσύνην καὶ φυλάςων ἀλήθειαν

3. ἀντιλαμβανόμενος ἀληθείας καὶ φυλάςων εἰρήνην ὅτι ἐπὶ σοὶ

4. ἤλπισαν κύριε ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος ὁ θεὸς ὁ μέγας ὁ αἰώνιος

Originally Posted by Igzy

One online Septuagint translation says this for Isaiah 26:2-4;

2. Open ye the gates, let the nation enter that keeps righteousness, and keeps truth,
3. supporting truth, and keeping peace: for on thee, O Lord,
4. they have trusted with confidence for ever, the great, the eternal God;

http://www.ccel.org/bible/brenton/Isaiah/26.html

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have the Septuagint too?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I always understood that Paul was saying was that when you see a great work of faith, say Peter opening the gospel to the Gentiles in the book of Acts. That this work of faith fulfills God's righteousness and that Peter did this because he was walking according to the Spirit (not his flesh, opinion, upbringing, natural man, etc). Now when you examine Peter you discover that he was "Minding the things of the Spirit" (he was in prayer when the Lord spoke to him). And, the reason he was "minding the things of the Spirit" was because he had a set time to pray.

Originally Posted by Ohio

That is from Lee's book The Knowledge of Life. It has these chapters ...

1. What Is Life?
2. What Is the Experience of Life?
3. The First Experience of Life—Regeneration
4. That Which Is Gained through Regeneration
5. The Sense of Life
6. The Fellowship of Life
7. The Sense of the Spirit and Knowing the Spirit
8. The Difference between Spirit and Soul
9. Three Lives and Four Laws
10. The Law of Life
11. The Inward Knowledge
12. What Is the Growth of Life?
13. The Outlet of Life
14. Light and Life

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZNP, When Lee taught to set the mind on the spirit he meant focus your attention on what you are feeling in your spirit.

Originally Posted by OBW

But whatever it is, either it actually has the verb, and is therefore different in its text, or is missing and is potentially in error in translation. Either way, the actual text of Romans does not have the verb. So it is not there even if it is there in Isaiah. It might be a near quote. Or just a springboard of thought form which Paul leaped.

Originally Posted by Igzy

you-shall-preserve peace peace that in·you one-trusting
thtzr ------------- shlum shlum - ki -- b·k --- btuch

The Hebrew word is "btuch." (בָּ טוּח)

It means "one-trusting." It doesn't appear the words "mind" or "stayed" are in the original.

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZNP, When Lee taught to set the mind on the spirit he meant focus your attention on what you are feeling in your spirit.

Originally Posted by Igzy

This is why "setting" has always seemed awkward to me. "Be conscious of the Spirit" seems a much more accurate expression of what we do. But "setting the mind on the Spirit" seems sort of like telling an ice skater to set her mind on her feet, which is probably the best way to get her to collide with a wall.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your post is a little unclear to me.

I believe Paul quoted Isa. 26.3 in Romans 8.6. My question would be what is the verb in the original Hebrew language in Isaiah, or even in the Septuagint.

The goal here in both Isaiah and Paul is God's perfect peace.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your post is a little unclear to me.

I believe Paul quoted Isa. 26.3 in Romans 8.6. My question would be what is the verb in the original Hebrew language in Isaiah, or even in the Septuagint.

The goal here in both Isaiah and Paul is God's perfect peace.

Originally Posted by OBW

I know that I already responded to this in my previous post, but this particular sentence seems unclear to me.

When you say "justify the Apostle's thought" it seems that you are saying that there is a precedent for what he said. But I think that what you are actually saying is that Isaiah provides enough parallel that it would justify implying a verb on the part of the Apostle even though none is actually found.

To bring Isaiah along to reread Romans is an exercise in applying some kind of precedence or parallel structure to assert that something not said is actually said. To justify Paul's thought seems more like trying to find something that causes us to accept what he has said that otherwise seems unusual or not expected. In this case, it would seem that you actually do not expect what he said and think that it should be read as if he said something else. Not a bad something else, just not what he actually said.

But in any case, even if we think the parallel in Isaiah causes there to be the implication of "set," it surely cannot then become the primary point of the verse (which is what Nigel is saying Lee has asserted). Surely the primary point of the verse cannot be what was omitted.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

This like of thing seems way too "spiritual" for me. If you're a doctor doing open heart surgery what does this kind of thing look like in application? Shouldn't you be setting your mind on the surgery?

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, or even a novice, but the word "stayed" provides enough of a "verb" to justify the Apostle's thought here in Romans.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

W. Lee identifies the general neglect of “setting the mind on the spirit” as a major failing among believers. He asserts, “The Lord couldn't have the Body life for centuries because there were no Christians who were … walking according to spirit, setting the mind on the spirit… We must be such a person in such a living. Right away we will be in the Body of Christ in an actual way.” Moreover, he says, “until you live in this way—setting your mind upon the spirit and putting to death all the activities of your body—you are not adequate for the Body of Christ.”