Originally Posted by Trapped

A while back as I realized I would be "one of those saints" who doesn't get to have a marriage partner at the time in their life when many others do, and a nascent, angry, realization began in me wrapped up in many church kid concepts about God: "Does God use the marriage thing to break people?"

Originally Posted by Trapped

Thanks for taking the time to write that.

Unfortunately from my time in the LC I am totally closed to being open to God, even though because of that very upbringing, in my living I am still trapped in waiting on Him to bring me a mate.

A while back as I realized I would be "one of those saints" who doesn't get to have a marriage partner at the time in their life when many others do, and a nascent, angry, realization began in me wrapped up in many church kid concepts about God: "Does God use the marriage thing to break people?" And everything in my experience has bolstered that thought, which has made me so angry that He would *&^% around with people in that way just to get what He wants.

So while opening to God in the way you described may be, and probably is, the pathway to a spouse (although I understand that if I open to God with the intention and goal of a spouse He won't "honor" that because the goal is not purely God Himself......maybe the truth or maybe another concept?), I am at the point where about the only way God can prove to me He is worth opening to is to work out the spouse thing first. (Like "you drop your gun first, then I'll drop mine." "No you drop yours!' "No you drop yours!") So there's a massive, volcanically angry standoff between me and Him that I can't even think about too much because we all know the God of the universe will win every time, and I am convinced that even if He gets me to open to Him, He will end up twisting it so that "He is enough" rather than bringing someone along for me to spend my life with, which thought just pisses me off to no end too.

Originally Posted by Trapped

I am at the point where about the only way God can prove to me He is worth opening to is to work out the spouse thing first. (Like "you drop your gun first, then I'll drop mine." "No you drop yours!' "No you drop yours!") So there's a massive, volcanically angry standoff between me and Him that I can't even think about too much because we all know the God of the universe will win every time, and I am convinced that even if He gets me to open to Him, He will end up twisting it so that "He is enough" rather than bringing someone along for me to spend my life with, which thought just pisses me off to no end too.

Originally Posted by aron

My advice. Forget about relationships. Forget about career. Forget about everything. Ask yourself a few simple, basic questions. The ones God wants you to ask.

Not to put words in your mouth, but here are a few examples:
Did God really raise Jesus from the dead? What then does it mean, "If you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved"?

What does 'saved' mean? Who am I? Saved, or not? Why am I here?

Forget about the "hand fits in the glove" crap they spoon-fed you. You need your own answers. And believe me, they will come. God wants you to ask. He said, "Seek and you will find". The LSM tried to shut down your seeking and supply you with their material. Dump it. Start again.

What will happen is that at some point you will ask a question, of God, that will resonate in the core of your being. The answer will surprise you, I guarantee. You will know it is God. "My sheep hear my voice." Follow that voice. You will never get answers, only more questions. But I tell you, the path is peace. Jesus is . . . wow. Words fail me.

Along the way, you will find the Right Person and the Right Job and all that other stuff. But it starts with a question. You just have to find the right one. It is within you.

And I'm not talking 'mysticism' stuff. I am talking Bible. I go by the Word. Period. I supplement it with other readings, but Jesus is the Word of God. It all starts with the Bible. Use your Bible to find the right question. Then God will answer, because He's been waiting for you to ask that question. He wants to tell you something.

Mediators are good and helpful. You will get many companions. But Jesus is the One True Mediator. He is the Faithful Witness. There is only one. Follow him.

God bless your journey.

Originally Posted by aron

My advice. Forget about relationships. Forget about career. Forget about everything. Ask yourself a few simple, basic questions. The ones God wants you to ask.

Not to put words in your mouth, but here are a few examples:
Did God really raise Jesus from the dead? What then does it mean, "If you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved"?

What does 'saved' mean? Who am I? Saved, or not? Why am I here?

Forget about the "hand fits in the glove" crap they spoon-fed you. You need your own answers. And believe me, they will come. God wants you to ask. He said, "Seek and you will find". The LSM tried to shut down your seeking and supply you with their material. Dump it. Start again.

What will happen is that at some point you will ask a question, of God, that will resonate in the core of your being. The answer will surprise you, I guarantee. You will know it is God. "My sheep hear my voice." Follow that voice. You will never get answers, only more questions. But I tell you, the path is peace. Jesus is . . . wow. Words fail me.

Along the way, you will find the Right Person and the Right Job and all that other stuff. But it starts with a question. You just have to find the right one. It is within you.

And I'm not talking 'mysticism' stuff. I am talking Bible. I go by the Word. Period. I supplement it with other readings, but Jesus is the Word of God. It all starts with the Bible. Use your Bible to find the right question. Then God will answer, because He's been waiting for you to ask that question. He wants to tell you something.

Mediators are good and helpful. You will get many companions. But Jesus is the One True Mediator. He is the Faithful Witness. There is only one. Follow him.

God bless your journey.

Originally Posted by Trapped

How? I am serious. Any help is appreciated and much needed.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

You're not the only one, I'm sorry! There is absolutely help though. You can learn healthy relationship later in life!

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Ohio,

This is a courtroom of public opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion based on what they know however limited the knowledge that opinion is based on.

However, your responses to this topic, as also the last sentence above, indicate that you have an axe to grind and therefore you look for things to support your bias even to the extent that you make things up and actually believe them to be fact. For instance, what information do you have that “Anaheim is most scared of this type of information...”? Did somebody in Anaheim say that to you? Were you in a meeting with people in Anaheim? You overheard a conversation? What?

There is no evidence that short or long courtships result in shorter or longer marriages, other than anecdotal that support either side of the argument.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Any belief can be propped up with anecdotal evidence.

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Ohio,

This is a courtroom of public opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion based on what they know however limited the knowledge that opinion is based on.

However, your responses to this topic, as also the last sentence above, indicate that you have an axe to grind and therefore you look for things to support your bias even to the extent that you make things up and actually believe them to be fact.

For instance, what information do you have that “Anaheim is most scared of this type of information...”? Did somebody in Anaheim say that to you? Were you in a meeting with people in Anaheim? You overheard a conversation? What?

Originally Posted by Ohio

What is this a court room?
Dear Drake you have spent far too much time with LSM's legal defense team DCP.
When I hear the sad stories of people I have known over the years, it is not hearsay, neither is it being "negative."
But I realize Anaheim is most scared of this type of information, and has to keep all the inmates from any contact with the real world.

Originally Posted by Drake

As I said anecdotal examples can be cited to support any position. “It was reported...” .. “I heard...” are indications that your information is not only anecdotal but hearsay.

Drake

Originally Posted by clever sister

Unless you know someone doing a study on courtship in the LC following them over a number of decades and recording, not just if they separate or not, but how happy they are in the relationship, I think all we will have is anecdotal evidence.

Originally Posted by calvinnme

At the age of 60, looking back at all I have seen, I can say that it is best to know the person well before marrying or you could have a life of unhappiness. What works in China or India does not necessarily work in America. The saying "marry in haste repent at leisure" is, in fact, quite true.

Originally Posted by clever sister

Unless you know someone doing a study on courtship in the LC following them over a number of decades and recording, not just if they separate or not, but how happy they are in the relationship, I think all we will have is anecdotal evidence.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have.

Very few of these "hastily arranged marriages" survived.

The elder(s) would decide that they needed to have "fellowship" with a bunch of brothers and sisters, and the next thing we would hear is that a handful of marriages being being prepared. The cross of Christ was supposed to take care of any "difficulties."

It was reported that one couple not only had no premarital relations but no post-marital relations as well. But, both were "absolute" for Christ and the church, so all was "fine."

Looking back on my time in the LC's, much of what we thought were "recovered truths," exclusive to the Recovery, were really cultural mores or superstitious beliefs.

One brother I lived with for a while was married under such circumstances. The marriage did not last. Later on I heard that the brother decided he was gay.

Originally Posted by Drake

In retrospect over 4 decades I Have not seen any evidence that suggests hastily arranged marriages or longer courtships endure better of one over the other.

Anecdotal examples can be cited to support any contention.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

I agree that it is best to know the person you are marrying.

Still, other than anecdotal I have not seen any evidence that marriages do better or worse with either way.

Drake

Originally Posted by calvinnme

This was one example of a disaster marriage due to church approved courting practices. I could write a book on marriage disasters due to the practice of not even getting to know the person until engaged. But if I wrote a book somebody would figure out who all of these people are and I don't want to embarrass anyone.

At the age of 60, looking back at all I have seen, I can say that it is best to know the person well before marrying or you could have a life of unhappiness. What works in China or India does not necessarily work in America. The saying "marry in haste repent at leisure" is, in fact, quite true.

Originally Posted by Drake

In retrospect over 4 decades I Have not seen any evidence that suggests hastily arranged marriages or longer courtships endure better of one over the other.

Anecdotal examples can be cited to support any contention.

Drake

Originally Posted by calvinnme

Yes, but when I was in the LC 1977-1981, I saw people getting married who literally did not know one another. They were not arranged marriages at all, just the acts of completely unexperienced young people whose courtship did not get past the infatuation stage. When they got engaged I was often surprised that they even knew one another. Thus there were some disasters. One that stands out is a marriage between a girl and guy who were completely unsuited to one another. They were plenty old enough - 25 and 26 - but when the infatuation stage wore off they were already married, they could actually "see" one another for who they were, and the arguing began. She began to see him as not smart enough for her and thus had no respect for him. They tried joining the army. They tried having a baby. Ultimately after about eight years of misery they parted ways. In his 30s he found a girl just right for him. I don't know what happened to her. I could tell other similar stories of disaster, but you get the picture.

I agree that the world's way of courting for 10 years before marriage is ridiculous. I think six months to a year is plenty of time. That gives you time to let the infatuation stage wear off and see if - the other party is a spendthrift, or is addicted to gambling, or has annoying habits you cannot abide, or if they have layabout relatives you will be expected to support, etc.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"how to you get to know someone well enough to determine if there’s something there to be built into friendship and beyond? " When we look at courtship in the Bible, there is really little support for the idea of long-term courtship for the purpose of "getting to know if someone is right for you".
I personally believe 1 month is long enough to know if someone is marriage material or not. The human body is designed to produce chemicals of attraction when two people of the opposite sex spend enough time together. This is why arranged marriages often work and couples that have been dating for too long (say up to 10 years) lose interest in each other and fall apart when the chemicals of attraction decline. I know Indian couples who are not Christians who have long and happy marriages despite not knowing each other before marriage.
The bible shows that God created Adam and brought Eve to him. He did not tell Adam to "try her out", or "see if you like her and if not I'll make you another". Neither did God create a few women and ask Adam to date each one for a year. The modern day concept of 1-5 year "dating" with the "try before your buy" idea is really a modern concept.

Originally Posted by Terry

That may be. "Brothers here and there" tend to be ones functioning in some responsible capacity for any given locality. It becomes a product of peer pressure for everyone else.

Originally Posted by Freedom

WL made many such statements, and these types of statements serve to show how legalistic he really was. It doesn't help matters any that everything he spoke is taken to heart.

I have heard people in the LC go so far as to deny that WL was ever legalistic. They will say that legalism only comes from brothers here and there who are "unbalanced". There is no admission of any root problem.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

In the Bible we do not see much critique of Jesus's teachings by his disciples. We see doubts, questions, "what did you mean Lord?", but no critique as such. Rather, it was the Pharisees who critiqued his teachings.

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have heard people in the LC go so far as to deny that WL was ever legalistic. They will say that legalism only comes from brothers here and there who are "unbalanced". There is no admission of any root problem.

Originally Posted by Trapped

These kind of statements are not him simply saying what he does in his own life. He is making clear statements, with the implication being that if you do the opposite of what he is saying, you will be in hell/lose the Lord/be sinning.

What else is a young kid who hears/reads/is taught these things supposed to think besides be scared/fearful/ashamed to look at a newspaper, look at a store display, go to a cartoon movie, watch a baseball game, go surfing (? why did he pick that of all things?), or turn on the TV? (I know with non-verbal communication it might come across like I'm belligerently asking you that question, but I really mean it rhetorically and typed it in calmness and sadness.)

Originally Posted by aron

The NT shows a network of peers, all learning from the Lord. "Were not our hearts burning, as He (the Lord) opened to us the scriptures."

There is one Master. The dominant/submissive relations you imply are antithetical to the spirit of Jesus. In the LC you get one man's ignorant opinions. Why can't we critique them, just as he did with others?

If you want to see good leadership, look at George Washington. His generals were nothing if not opinionated. Washington would let them hash it out in front of him, as he carefully watched. Then he would speak for group consensus. Kind of like Peter and James in Acts 15, after "much discussion" (vv. 7,13)

In the LC you get one man's ignorant opinion, presented as divine fiat.

Originally Posted by Trapped

If those things don't take pre-eminence in your life and consume you, then there is nothing wrong with doing them (unless the Lord has actually touched you about something). But when Lee paints with those kind of strokes, then he creates, from youth, people who are afraid of normal, human, non-sinful things, and who, as adults, can also not enjoy doing those things. When so many things are made sinful, then there's quickly nothing else left.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The bible emphasizes teacher-student (disciple) relationships.

Originally Posted by Terry

Somethings Witness Lee did or did not do, I think brothers took that and became legalistic with those practices even if it's non-essential to our faith or plain not even scriptural. (For example Witness Lee would say he didn't watch TV. As a result it became legalistic not to have a TV in one's home and if there was it was with the caveat for only children's educational purposes. Otherwise TV's were kept in the closets or not in the homes at all.)
I would just say read the Bible daily and through reading it will become clear what was we should affirm and what we should reject.

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

This was exactly my experience. I remember reading one of the Psalms once in a small group. I wondered, as in saying, " I wonder..." if what the footnote said about there being some Psalms that were written according to the human concept and some according to the spiritual one worked in the Psalm we were talking about. Immediately, a sister jumped in and said, "that's what the footnote says and that's how I understand it. There are two lines in the Psalms... it's right there". And then I said, "Or...it's not." I received a mixed bag of looks that ranged from daggers to confusion.

I always remember the verses where the Lord REASONS with people, where Paul REASONS with people.

Originally Posted by aron

Witness Lee ran a comprehensive social conditioning programme where thinking, which is not only our God-given right but also our duty, was considered tantamount to rebellion.

If anyone sat down and tried to figure things out for themselves, they were considered dangerous subversives and a threat to godly order, being variously called independent, divisive, factional, and ambitious.

And Watchman Nee was lauded, lionized even, for doing exactly that. Yet for us it was forbidden.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Witness Lee made many lawful things sinful, and this has screwed me up to my core.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Witness Lee made many lawful things sinful, and this has screwed me up to my core.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's funny how you speak of the past. People still chaperone today, even young people, may date as a group or with a particular friend by their side, a wing man or wing girl.

Originally Posted by Terry

Trapped, thank you for your honesty. I can relate from long ago. My experience is relative to one raised in the local churches. Those who came into the local churches as a young adult may have had a far different experience.
Even to mention common interests is the same as speaking loosely, worldly and fleshly. Be spiritual in all many of speaking.
Just as Trapped said, conversation is sinful.

Originally Posted by clever sister

I can't help think about how people met in society until very recently...

Originally Posted by Trapped

No one here has complained "They wouldn't let me be alone with a MOTOS!" (abbreviating "member of the opposite sex" so I don't have to keep typing that whole phrase) or "They wouldn't let me be unhindered and uninhibited and do whatever I wanted with a MOTOS!"

Of course in the YP meetings, SSOT, any YP trips, in college, etc we were around MOTOS. We are not complaining that there were serving ones around to make sure everyone was safe, taken care of, and two people didn't run off and do something that would devastate their families and the church.

What has created long-lasting, life-affecting issues is the constant, "is that a MOTOS? RUN AWAY!!! FORNICATION!! You had a conversation?!?!? SINFUL!! YOU WERE CIRCLING THE WELL OF PREMARITAL SEX! YOU SMILED WITH THEM ABOUT A COMMON INTEREST?! YOU WERE INCHES AWAY FROM RUINING YOUR LIFE AND YOUR BODY AND YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD AND THE SAINTS AND THE CHURCH AND YOUR PARENTS AND THE REST OF YOUR LIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN RUINED IRREVOCABLY!!!!"

Originally Posted by clever sister

Nice, trying to change the subject.

I don't think anyone here has been complaining that at the SSOT there are rules that brothers are not allowed in the sister's rooms or vice versa.

What we are talking about is the prevalent teaching that young people should have no "special relationships" until they are ready for marriage, which apparently the brothers know better than anyone else when you are ready for marriage, and once you are ready you should just go in blind with whoever the brother chose for you.
It's the culture in which elders feel they have the right to split apart or push together young people as they see fit.
It's the environment in which single brother are scared to talk to sisters and vice versa, and for those 'rebellious' ones who do start a relationship to hide it.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm pretty sure I have figured out who you are and I'm sure you can figure out who I am too We got eaten alive by mosquitos at our hospitality that one time!

Originally Posted by Drake

Sure. However, when the parents are not present, say at a young people’s retreat, then the responsibility falls to the serving ones. Besides, most parents do not object to oversight of their kids in their absence. And young people know the regulations when they sign up for an event.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

I learned a long time ago that if you leave young people alone without boundaries trouble will follow. Learning from ones own mistakes will happen anyway but structure and rules are key to mitigating, as much as possible the trappings of today’s culture...

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have heard those in the LC attempt to make such an argument many times. Like Terry says, restriction is appropriate if it is coming from parents. What makes the elders think they have the right to interfere? What makes the elders think that creating structure is their own responsibility?

Several church kids that I grew up with got into drugs and trouble with the law. In such cases the elders did not get involved, and they identified the problem as what it was - parenting issues. But when it comes to relationships, all the sudden the elders think they have the right to get involved.

Originally Posted by Terry

Drake, I would agree with you to a point. Restrictions should come from the teens parents. Not by brothers or sisters in the church. Otherwise a parent may consider their parental responsibility is being trespassed.

Originally Posted by Drake

My experience is that though most teens pretty much resent any restriction in their lives, as they mature into adulthood upon reflection many have expressed appreciation for the restriction. Structure is a small price to pay to keep them from major negative life events and to foster positive and proper relationships before the Lord.

Originally Posted by Drake

My experience is that though most teens pretty much resent any restriction in their lives, as they mature into adulthood upon reflection many have expressed appreciation for the restriction. Structure is a small price to pay to keep them from major negative life events and to foster positive and proper relationships before the Lord.

Originally Posted by Freedom

They'll say that everything needs to be 'proper', but what that really means is just that everything needs to be by their terms.

Originally Posted by aron

In the LC, terms like "proper" and "positive" are dog whistles, cues to conditioned insiders as to what's going on and what's expected..

Originally Posted by Drake

Structure is a small price to pay to keep them from major negative life events and to foster positive and proper relationships before the Lord.
“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” Proverbs 22:6

Originally Posted by Ohio

Personally, knowing the self-serving and contentious nature of those at LSM, I cannot see any reason whatsoever that a supposed book publisher should actively interfere in the marriages of young people.

Since they have assumed these "matchmaking" duties, would not it be appropriate for LSM to also publish a long-term study of the results of their work? Should not an objective and transparent study be made available to prove the efficacy of this program?

I do find it extremely presumptuous for LSM handlers to assume these roles, in effect "playing God" with the lives of His children. In doing so, they sidestep the roles of the respective parents and the LC elders most familiar with these young people.

Originally Posted by clever sister

Forcing young people to keep relationships secret only fosters an environment when certain ones can take advantage of others.
Much better for everything to be out in the open.

Also, studies have shown that open communication with teens is the best way to prevent teenage pregnancy, with informed teenagers being more likely to wait until they are older before having sex. Nothing is as tempting as 'forbidden fruit'.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you insist Drake as for drawing lines, I came to the conclusion long ago that no amount of line drawing and insisting that young people learn from your experience and ideas of what is Ok and not ok will stop their ultimate need to grow and experience life themselves and learn from their own mistakes. If it makes someone feel better to be drawing lines then good for them, but don't expect much out of it if you're not willing to actually have open honest discussions with young people.

Originally Posted by clever sister

I either know who you are, or know a sister who was in a similar situation to you. I look back and hope that I didn't give judgey vibes, but I remember being curious about the relationship status between these two, until the sister confided in me.
I don't think it is right that two people in a long term relationship should feel like they can't be open about it, just because they are not yet engaged.

Originally Posted by Drake

Therefore you should understand the need for tight boundaries no matter who.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I can so relate to many of the situations here being a church kid myself. I think that the whole treatment and handling of relationships in the local churches is the number one thing that caused me to start seeing all the flaws in the local church and eventually stop meeting....

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, now you sound bitter for your own reasons. But, where do you draw the line? Two teens alone?

Originally Posted by Drake

Therefore you should understand the need for tight boundaries no matter who.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm surprised that you could not understand her feeling for friends and family who have been hurt by LSM's mandates on the young people. Yet when Phillip Lee ran the LSM, code named "The Office," this same "loose and permissive environment" went on unhindered and even protected by many of the Blendeds willing to win favor with Phillip's Daddy.

Originally Posted by Drake

Why bitter? Your life turned out good, you married someone from the environment in spite of the restriction and are happily going on, and 95% of the young people who did the same thing also are in a good place.... at least the ones I know. Sure, there are tragedies, divorces, unhappiness and I know of a few over forty years but those may be found anywhere. Human relationships are hard work and there is no pixie dust that makes the challenges all go away. Last thing any Christian group wants is a loose and permissive environment that leads to pregnancy or emotional issues as is a common concern for parents as well. Besides, raging hormones attack young people’s willpower and thier pursuit of the Lord so another line of defense is prudent.

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, now you sound bitter for your own reasons.
But, where do you draw the line? Two teens alone?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Like I said, I'm not really bitter for my sake. I'm bitter because the vast majority of my friends and acquaintances that I grew up with either still in it and living under the same rediculous rules whilst slowly losing any optimism for marrying before 30 (which has been their goal) or they have left the LC partly because of the relationship reason and are having to deal with many issues caused by growing up in such a bubble and trying to integrate into the real world.

Amongst my immediate peers I am part of 10% who have managed to forge a relationship for themselves and get married (and for all of us it involved beings "rebelllious").
I don't think young people are given enough credit to be able to work things out for themselves. If they are brought up properly and able to communicate openly with parents about "pregnancy and emotional issues" rather than have it all swept under the rug with a "if make eye contact with the opposite sex you will get pregnant and die" attitude, maybe that would be better than all the unhealthy practices that are going on.

Originally Posted by Drake

Why bitter? Your life turned out good, you married someone from the environment in spite of the restriction and are happily going on, and 95% of the young people who did the same thing also are in a good place.... at least the ones I know. Sure, there are tragedies, divorces, unhappiness and I know of a few over forty years but those may be found anywhere. Human relationships are hard work and there is no pixie dust that makes the challenges all go away. Last thing any Christian group wants is a loose and permissive environment that leads to pregnancy or emotional issues as is a common concern for parents as well. Besides, raging hormones attack young people’s willpower and thier pursuit of the Lord so another line of defense is prudent.

Originally Posted by clever sister

If that's God's view then I haven't been keeping very good track of my husband. I'm not even sure what country he lives in now.

Originally Posted by Trapped

As a church kid in the U.S. from the age of zero, I can echo the extreme separation of brothers/sisters in the LC. One serving one told me, "Don't even think about it until you're 25."...

Originally Posted by Evangelical

God did not even tell Adam he was going to make a woman out of his rib.

Originally Posted by Bradley

Oh! haha ok yes. Thanks for clearing that up. Yeah if you meet a girl who was hand-crafted by God Himself then she must be quite a keeper. Plus there's literally no other women on earth nor ever will be, except your descendants. So I think they had God's permission to bang without getting to know each other first.

Whether or not they had a ceremony with a white dress and signed a bit of paper, well. Not sure about that. More likely they just had sex and then kept on having more sex, and because they had sex so much, they were in a relationship. So if we're going to use them as an example, it would be more accurate to say that Adam and Eve hooked up on their first date...

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Honestly, I'm pretty bitter about the whole thing, not so much for my sake but for a lot of people that I grew up with. The whole thing is just sad.

Originally Posted by Trapped

As a church kid in the U.S. from the age of zero, I can echo the extreme separation of brothers/sisters in the LC. One serving one told me, "Don't even think about it until you're 25." And like a little naive sheep with an entire community of laser beam eyes on me watching and judging every interaction I had with a member of the opposite sex, I did just that. Then when I turned 26 I got comments about how I was getting dusty and old. I was so confused....

Originally Posted by Trapped

As a church kid in the U.S. from the age of zero, I can echo the extreme separation of brothers/sisters in the LC. One serving one told me, "Don't even think about it until you're 25."...

Originally Posted by JJ

Great point, Aron.

Originally Posted by JJ

Yes no fornication. But, come on local church leaders and saints, drop the additions to God’s Word!

Originally Posted by Evangelical

From God's point of view, sex is marriage. Adam and Eve were married as soon as they "knew" each other.

Originally Posted by Trapped

As a church kid in the U.S. from the age of zero, I can echo the extreme separation of brothers/sisters in the LC. One serving one told me, "Don't even think about it until you're 25."..

Originally Posted by aron

". . in an abundance of counselors. ."?

How does this jibe with "one trumpet"?

Originally Posted by Freedom

I conside unsolicited advice to be highly questionable. It raises the question of what the motive is for giving the advice.
If someone wants the advice of the elders, a normal type of interaction would be for that person to approach the elders, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I was joking! I meant if you were the first man on earth, and God specifically told you he was taking your rib and making your wife- then marry her Evangelical used Adam and Eve as an example of getting married immediately and it working out He also believes one month is sufficient time to get to know someone.

Originally Posted by Bradley

Oh! haha ok yes. Thanks for clearing that up. Yeah if you meet a girl who was hand-crafted by God Himself then she must be quite a keeper. Plus there's literally no other women on earth nor ever will be, except your descendants. So I think they had God's permission to bang without getting to know each other first.

Whether or not they had a ceremony with a white dress and signed a bit of paper, well. Not sure about that. More likely they just had sex and then kept on having more sex, and because they had sex so much, they were in a relationship. So if we're going to use them as an example, it would be more accurate to say that Adam and Eve hooked up on their first date...

Originally Posted by Bradley

If a man has never had a girlfriend and he's getting older and lonelier, he'll be coming from a position of scarcity with regards to women. He will be needy, and no woman likes a needy man. Its just not attractive.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I was joking! I meant if you were the first man on earth, and God specifically told you he was taking your rib and making your wife- then marry her Evangelical used Adam and Eve as an example of getting married immediately and it working out He also believes one month is sufficient time to get to know someone.

Originally Posted by Terry

Big difference from offering encouragement or advice versus suggesting whom.
Though it wasn't my experience, it did happen to others I knew.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

On the topic of elder interference, I agree that elders can interfere more than they should. So can parents, siblings, friends, co-workers and anyone else who wants to help.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I agree. 3 dates is crazy. That's like 3 hours. The time required depends on the individuals and their circumstances. I believe 1 month total of quality time together, or 720 hours. That could be 8 hours per week for 90 weeks, or 1 hour a day for 720 days (about 2 years). I am only counting time actually spent together, other time, "waiting time" doesn't really count. If two people say they have dated for 3 years but only see each other for one day a year that is the equivalent of only 3 days.

Originally Posted by Bradley

The problem is, there's no way of knowing if someone is your rib or not. I was certain my ex was my rib, I called her 'my God-ordained wife'. I literally married my ex because I was convinced that she was the rib that God had prepared for me...

Originally Posted by kumbaya

No kidding! I would say that if God created a women specifically for you- from your own rib- then yes, go ahead and marry her right away! Ha!

Originally Posted by Evangelical

On the topic of elder interference, I agree that elders can interfere more than they should. So can parents, siblings, friends, co-workers and anyone else who wants to help.

In my experience, I have seen some wise elders who do not really interfere, but have seen some young single brothers or sisters who believe they are the next Dr Phil.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

[I]I personally believe 1 month is long enough to know if someone is marriage material or not. The human body is designed to produce chemicals of attraction when two people of the opposite sex spend enough time together...

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your argument about Adam and Eve is just bogus.
Don't you know that Adam checked out every girl on the planet before marrying Eve?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

[I]I personally believe 1 month is long enough to know if someone is marriage material or not. The human body is designed to produce chemicals of attraction when two people of the opposite sex spend enough time together...

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry to say, but two of the primary criteria for all of today's LC elders are not listed in the Bible -- zeal and loyalty to Lee's ministry.

Originally Posted by clever sister

I'm not saying it was the brothers fault, only it was something that happened. I'm sure there were sisters who couldn't talk to brothers, as well, but I guess a blushing bride is more attractive than a stuttering groom.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Some biblical examples are: Prov 11:14 Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety. Job 12:12 Wisdom is with the aged, and understanding in length of days.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Prov 11:14 Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety..

Originally Posted by Terry

I second that. Good for your Bradley.
Well clever sister, those of us brothers raised in the local churches, at an early age perhaps beginning at 6-7 grade we begin being told "don't talk to sisters". Year after year of that teaching, it becomes ingrained. Equally as much we're taught to be obedient and submissive to those older than us. Another reason brothers tend to be awkward and inept when it comes to speak with sisters is fear of man. They don't want to be rebuked for speaking to a sister. Though there's always the possibility sisters are equally awkward when a single brother is speaking with the. They go into a panic. Thinking how to get away before a "responsible brother" sees the conversation.
How do you break the cycle? Only feasible option is to have blatant disregard for "the brothers" who give fellowship on the matter. Of course that would be received as being rebellious.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We have some posters who are adamant that the elders arrange marriages, supposedly contrary to the person's will, and this is a bad thing as evidenced by a few examples of failed marriages:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You are confusing arranged marriage with forced marriage. If you don't know the difference you shouldn't be commenting. The statistics are on my side anyway: According to a 2012 study by Statistic Brain, the global divorce rate for arranged marriages was 6 percent — a significantly low number. Compared to the 55 percent of marriages in the world that are arranged, this low statistic shows the success rate of arranged marriages.http://thedailycougar.com/2015/04/03...-as-you-think/

Originally Posted by Ohio

When and where have arranged weddings (where young people have their free wills taken from them) been the practice of Bible believing Christians in evangelical churches?

Originally Posted by JJ

Anyone who denies that marriages arranged by the elders is not a common practice in the LC is lying. I witnessed or was told about them by those whose marriages were arranged many times from 1985-2015.

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the LC-style arranged marriages, it might not be something that is literally 'forced' on anyone, but the pressure is enough so that people will cave to what the elders are 'suggesting'.

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe what Ohio is referring to is when elders interject themselves whether playing matchmaker or breaking up a potential relationship. What this does is remove liberty, will, and choice from potential relationships ending in courting. When removing liberty, will, and choice happens an eventual marriage tends to be one of contract and not of covenant.
What I posted above was not my experience, but experiences of others.

Originally Posted by Ohio

When and where have arranged weddings (where young people have their free wills taken from them) been the practice of Bible believing Christians in evangelical churches?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's a modern day myth that two people need to spend a long time together to create a bond and then when they feel ready, they are ready for marriage.
God intended marriage, not dating, for creating lasting, long-term bonds.

Originally Posted by clever sister

A couple of years ago I met up with a sister, not sure if she was still meeting with LC at the time, she was just in the same city as me for work.
She was dating someone not in LC, and I was single (as I still am) and we talked about how LC expects us to marry someone in LC, but all the single brothers were uhh... single for a reason.
The number of brothers who had no idea how to speak to sisters was astonishing. I found it tended to improve once they got married, but that's no help to a single sister!
Also, when I was part of Christians on Campus, I remember a new one (I don't think she stuck around long) at a lunch leaning over to me and asking "Why are there separate tables for guys and girls". I didn't know how to answer that. It really is abnormal.
Also, good for you Bradley!

Originally Posted by Ohio

When and where have arranged weddings (where young people have their free wills taken from them) been the practice of Bible believing Christians in evangelical churches?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It seems your attempt to argue for modern day dating practices using the bible as support has failed.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You prove my point. He has already chosen His future wife. He is waiting for her readiness not trying to get to know her better to see if she is the right one.

Originally Posted by A little brother

You might have forgotten the most important romance - Christ and His Church. Christ is not in a hurry and still patiently waiting for His bride to be ready after thousands of years have passed.

Originally Posted by awareness

The church has no business being involved in relationships and courting. Just who do they think they are, parents? Oh I forgot. They are a cult.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's a modern day myth that two people need to spend a long time together to create a bond and then when they feel ready, they are ready for marriage.
God intended marriage, not dating, for creating lasting, long-term bonds..

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Here are some stories of people who married a short time after meeting, and had long marriages:
https://www.shape.com/lifestyle/sex-...theyd-just-met
Also, short courtship periods are the norm in many cultures, or non-existent, and used to be in western culture too.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

God intended marriage, not dating, for creating lasting, long-term bonds. Adam and Eve got married very quickly and then got to know each other better later. This is why many fall into sexual sin before marriage - people in a long term relationship e.g. 3 years, often commit fornication because they "can't wait". They follow their natural desires as God intended but due to some social stigma for getting married "too early", they fall into the trap of waiting too long and so fall into fornication.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's a modern day myth that two people need to spend a long time together to create a bond and then when they feel ready, they are ready for marriage.

God intended marriage, not dating, for creating lasting, long-term bonds. Adam and Eve got married very quickly

Originally Posted by E

This is why many fall into sexual sin before marriage - people in a long term relationship e.g. 3 years, often commit fornication because they "can't wait". They follow their natural desires as God intended but due to some social stigma for getting married "too early", they fall into the trap of waiting too long and so fall into fornication.

Originally Posted by Ohio

That is just crazy!

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I personally believe 1 month is long enough to know if someone is marriage material or not. The human body is designed to produce chemicals of attraction when two people of the opposite sex spend enough time together.

Originally Posted by Terry

We are social beings, but in the local churches have become segregated socially to only those of our respective genders. As a result single brothers and sisters are unable to be unprogrammed from the teaching “don’t talk to sisters” or “don’t talk to brothers” as they enter into the workforce.
I’ll stop here for someone else to continue with the conversation.